March 24, 2023

CD96: Hyperbitcoinization, Strong Communities, and Sovereign Individuals with CK

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Citadel Dispatch

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TOPICS: The Humble Part is the Important Part, Prioritize Your Time, Survival

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(00:06:15) Hyperbitcoinization, strong communities, and sovereign individuals

(00:23:19) The importance of staying humble and focusing on survivability

(00:37:00) The three likely scenarios for Bitcoin: Bitcoin works, Bitcoin fails, Bitcoin is just another asset

(00:40:47) Bitcoin as one asset out of many assets

(00:41:06) Existence of shitcoins and their performance compared to Bitcoin

(00:41:33) Bitcoin's nature and its impact on technology and the world

(00:42:25) Challenges with traditional store of value options

(00:43:41) Priorities and long-term thinking in the Bitcoin world

(00:49:27) The importance of strong local communities in the Bitcoin ecosystem

(00:50:37) The significance of Bitcoin conferences and in-person gatherings

(00:58:45) The role of Bitcoin Policy Institute in advocating for Bitcoin-friendly policies


06:15 - Hybrid Bitcoinization, strong communities, and sovereign individuals

23:19 - The importance of staying humble and focusing on survivability

37:00 - The three likely scenarios for Bitcoin: Bitcoin works, Bitcoin fails, Bitcoin is just another asset

40:47 - Bitcoin as one asset out of many assets

41:06 - Existence of shitcoins and their performance compared to Bitcoin

41:33 - Bitcoin's nature and its impact on technology and the world

42:25 - Challenges with traditional store of value options

43:41 - Priorities and long-term thinking in the Bitcoin world

49:27 - The importance of strong local communities in the Bitcoin ecosystem

50:37 - The significance of Bitcoin conferences and in-person gatherings

58:45 - The role of Bitcoin Policy Institute in advocating for Bitcoin-friendly policies


Happy Bitcoin Friday, freaks.

It's your host, Odell, here for another sale dispatch.

The show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

I'm broadcasting here live from the Bitcoin TV studio at Bitcoin Park with my good friend, CK.

Before we get started,

I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show with Bitcoin donations.

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As is tradition, I read the top 4 boostograms from the last episode.

We have at


with 55,555

sats saying mandibles, stay on bone stack sats. Great advice. You have at McCoy with 10,000 sats,

another stellar rip, Odell,

threads the needle,

allowing the discussion to flow between the guests, interjecting, succinct takes, keeping everyone honest. We have rider die freak 8 Mythrandur with 7,777

sets, saying block wars, a great book, an important account of history for all future Citadel libraries.

Had the pleasure of having bit mex research on the last episode.

If you freaks haven't picked up block wars,

the block size war, I think it was what it's called,

you should pick it up. It's a great book about the 2017 block size war. If you weren't around,

it is an absolute must read. And then we have at Slim Shady with 101 stats,

and he just said pee,

which is great advice. And I appreciate all the freaks who continue to support the show. Also, I know it's a bear market. I know it's a recession.

Might turn into a global economic

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leaving reviews, all that helps. And then one last shout

out, dispatch is very unique in that we have a live

interactive chat where audience members

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which is 247365

on that end.

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who continues to join the live chat.

You guys make it special. So thank you. With all that said,

I have good friend in the studio, c k Snarks, Christian.

How's it going, Christian? It's going good. I never call you Christian. How's it going, CK?

CK is better.

Christian Keroles:

You just got back from a long trip. It's It's good to have you back in Nashville. It's good to be back in Nashville, man. Going on vacation is always fun, but, you know, you always miss your bed a little bit. You miss home. So,

it's good to be back. Feels good. And, you know, Bitcoin Magazine, we're grinding towards Bitcoin 2023, 55 days away. So,

55 days. Yeah, man. There's,


no shortage of work to do on that front.


Meanwhile, we got Balaji calling for a $1,000,000

Bitcoin in,

83 days now, I believe. I know. If he's right, you know, it's gonna be a hell of a hell of an event. Might have a humble 200 k by conference day based on his projections, not by mine. I don't really know.

I don't make projections anymore. Bitcoin tends to surprise you. I just I just stay on the one stack set. Those are the good times.

You know, I looked up, the other day.

I think I've said good morning. Stay humble, stacks at on Twitter manually typed out.

I know. A 178 days, I think it's been in a row. Something like that. Crazy streak. Did you pick up any other good habits? When when I started that, FTX was still alive, Block 5 was still alive, Barry Silber didn't owe 1,000,000,000 of dollars to people. A lot of shit has gone down. You know, banks didn't fail yet. We didn't have bank runs yet.

Credit Suisse was still an independent company. A lot of things have happened.

Christian Keroles:

Bitcoin happens fast.

It happens fast, man.


So what are we gonna talk about today? I titled the episode, hybrid Bitcoinization, strong communities,


sovereign individuals. I know you love the sovereign individual thesis. Yep. And the freaks know I love just

chilling books left and right. If they haven't read the sovereign individual, they should read that. And, also, if they haven't I've recently,

not that recently, maybe, like, a year ago, read,

when money dies,

which is,

like it's a very dense book, but it's a good one.

It recounts the Weimar,

the Germany hyperinflation

crisis after I bought that one twice and have not read it yet. So It's really dense. Like, I'm not gonna pretend I finished it.

I the way I look at it is, like, mandibles is the easier read version.

Christian Keroles:

Dude, so mandibles first,

then sovereign individual. And then if you really just, like, have a hankering for punishment, I guess, when money dies. So where do you wanna start, CK?

I mean,


my shtick is

I think stay humble, success is the perfect advice. So kudos to you for for putting putting the the the perfect advice into into a words, into a slogan, popularizing it.

Generally speaking, when when Bitcoiners say things like you can never have enough Bitcoin or they do, like, financially irresponsible things,

it makes me think that they're, like,

1, not humble enough and 2, not not bullish enough.

So it kinda grinds my gears. So, I mean, I'd love to have a conversation with you to tease that out.


I mean, if you really understand what

Bitcoin hyper Bitcoinization

looks like

in in, like, practicality

in terms of Bitcoin,

I just think that people are really miscalibrated

for what that world will look like in Bitcoin terms, and it's causing them to behave

irrationally in hindsight.


So so Yeah. I mean, c k, I am

humbly all in on Bitcoin,

and I humbly believe that I do not have enough Bitcoin.

So how am I acting irrational? When why don't you why don't you hit me with some hard talk here?

Christian Keroles:



how much Bitcoin do you need to be satisfied when Bitcoin hits hyper Bitcoinization?


I don't think that number does not exist.

Christian Keroles:

Okay. Like, break that down to me because,

I mean, there's plenty of, like, targets that you could put that, you know, might sound logical. Like,

when you think of wealth

my problem is, like, when you think of wealth as a person,

like, how how do you think about that? And the reality is is, like,

there's a number where your life is amazing. Right? Right. Where, like, oh, like, your physical wants are

taken care of. You have, you know, vast amounts of security and opportunity that you can create for yourself.

So, like, that number exists,

and then put that number That number is different for every person. Sure. It's different for everybody. You like, to make good

economic calculations today for the future, like,

you gotta at least know that number. Right? And from there, like, you need to put it in Bitcoin terms and then project that through


some level of adoption curve that you're expecting. Do you conceptualize that in fiat terms currently? Or

Christian Keroles:

Well, you know me, I like to say 37 SaaS equals generational wealth.


So I don't think I think you should have substantially more than 37 sets. Like, I think that's a way lowball. No. I mean, like, you have a massive opportunity.

Like, currently, you can get

I I always right now, you can get,


sats. 3,581

sats for a dollar.

Christian Keroles:

Fantastic. Yeah. I mean, hey. We have a mass you have a massive opportunity


to stack a disgusting amount of Sats in a hyper Bitcoin ass world today. We have Norwall Tacos here. Matt wants enough enough Bitcoin to buy the Bitcoin skull for Bitcoin Park. I mean, I think that would be a nice starting point. Yeah.

Christian Keroles:

I mean, you might have enough. It sounds like you didn't even get commissioned the value of 1 Bitcoin to to do the whole thing. No. Look. I mean, I I I respect that.


Look. There are there are things

the the way I look at Bitcoin is

Bitcoin is, like, the base unit of my time. The only thing that is more scarce

than Bitcoin is my time. Right? So if I put time into something,

I wanna store that in Bitcoin,

and if I'm talking about something if I'm thinking about doing something

that requires

money, something like Bitcoin Park, I am making a calculation

on whether or not

those sets

are worth the endeavor. So, you know, people always ask Bitcoin Park, like, oh, I would love to have Bitcoin Park in my hometown or in wherever I live. And we love that. Like, I want

you know, Bitcoin is distributed. The cool part is this grassroots

Bitcoin movement that is not controlled by anybody.

I'm happy to get on a call with anybody to help them, you know, set up their own local community and build out their own local community. We have grassroots Bitcoin here every September.

That is, you know, free tickets for anyone who,

it's invite only for for local Bitcoin meetup organizers Yeah. For that purpose. But when they ask what the secret is, what is the secret to Bitcoin Park? The secret to Bitcoin Park is

that Rod and I believe in it to a point where we're willing to risk a bunch of Bitcoin in the front end bootstrapping this thing. Like, it's it's losing us sats. We're losing sats every day that Bitcoin Park exists right now trying to make it sustainable because we think it's a worthy

mission. Right? It's a worthy concept. Right? And so when I think about it,

I want

as much Bitcoin as possible

while still being fulfilled currently.

And it's almost

it's it's there's more correlation there with, you know, like, radical saving ideology or something. Right? Like, reduce expenses,

focus on priorities,

and and try and make them and also, I mean, I would like to retire early.

Right? Me too.

So I I don't know. I so to me, it's just I I don't know what that number is. I I've I have yet to figure out what that number is. You know, how many sats is

how many I guess that's the question. It's like, how many stats is enough to retire?

Christian Keroles:

Again, I think everyone has their own personal number. Right? But if you don't have a number, like, how can you,

I guess, like, how can you calibrate to your SAT opportunity cost appropriately? I like that set opportunity cost.

So I mean, like, Bitcoiners love giving investment advice, man. Like, don't invest in shit coins. Don't speculate on NFTs, all these things. That's all investment advice. Stack stats, don't buy a house. Like, Bitcoiners

love fucking investment advice.

I personally think that

there are some issues with,

some of, you know, the dogmatic investment advice out there. You know, there's a lot of great stuff, like, say, humble, sex ads, dollar cost averaging,

owning property. Like, there's some fantastic investment advice out there. I think investment real estate is a shit coin.


But for owning and I I say that as someone who's launching Bitcoin Park. But,

I think owning your own property, right, or as close to owning your own property as possible in the world of property taxes

is a is a is a worthy use of stats.

But I also I think I'm pretty consistent at least, and I know this is not a

you're not talking necessarily about me.

You're not the worst perpetrator. That's for sure. But I'm I'm a strong believer that everyone has the right to get wrecked. Like, they can invest in whatever they want. I've never

I I I'm a strong believer that shit coins and everything else are trending to 0 in Bitcoin terms. I think the last few weeks have

brought a lot of people onto that side. But if you want to, like, by all means, you're, you know, you're your own person. I believe in personal responsibility. Like, if you want to lose your money, like, that's your prerogative.

Christian Keroles:



I I don't have anything like, I'm not arguing against that. I'm not arguing against any of the things that you said earlier. I'm I'm I'm I think people should stack as much sets as they they can.

What I'm challenging them to do

is to think through what is the actual value of those sats in a hyper Bitcoinized world so that way you can calibrate your decision making

for today

more accurately.

And, personally, like, I while stacking stats is

a very big part of, like, what the future is gonna look like in having as much Bitcoin as possible,

there's a lot of other elements there. You need to get there with your stats. Like, I have another saying, like, you know the world where, like, Bitcoin was less than a cent and, like, there's people who were like, they just didn't know the value of it, and they were, like, had way more Sats back then than now. Like, no matter how hard they tried, they've they're they've reached their their all time high Sats count,

period. And, like, there's a whole generation of Bitcoin.

We're still in that paradigm, Matt. Yeah. We're still in that paradigm. So, like, if you don't understand that we're, like, there's this s curve of adoption idea, like, any amount of sats on the bottom of the s will be stupid at the top of the s. He's showing me the s live. I'm looking at I'm, like, making a hand gesture, but you can envision it. Right? Any amount at the bottom will be stupid at the bottom. That's why that's why 37 sassy equals generational wealth. Because I'm trying

to I'm trying to help you people understand that, like,

the arc of Bitcoin,

it's, like, stop thinking about in dollar terms. You're the ones who are thinking about in dollar terms by saying, like, I can't have enough. You Not necessarily. Will have enough. You already do have enough. I'm thinking Like, you gotta get them across the finish line. I'm think first of all, I do not have enough,


CK. I'm thinking in In what practical terms? I'm thinking in in in cattle purchasing power, in acre purchasing power, in water purchasing power. Like, I have, you know

Christian Keroles:

In today's world, like, with what assumptions? Water would would, you know,


water will be priced in sats at some point. People will have to live

they to live, they need water. Right? Like, there will be a water crisis in our future.

Probably. I don't want my grandkids to have to worry about, you know, using the shitty public water pump. Right? Like, I want them to have nice quality water

and be able to focus on their priorities. I mean, when I think about it, it's like Sound like a doomer.

Not a doo I'm an optimist.

I'm an I'm an optimist. I'm a doomer optimist is what I say.

Christian Keroles:

I think the I think the transitions will have hard times, so I agree with you there.


My theory is my theory is the path to hyper Bitcoinization is billions of people getting rugged over and over and over again until the Bitcoin standard happens. It's it's it's basically a path of pain,

while people touch the stove or their friends touch their stove or their family touches the stove, and they get burned and they seek out better options, and they find free and open source tools, including Bitcoin,

as a as a way out, as a lifeboat. That is basically my doomer optimism theory.

Christian Keroles:

I agree a 100%.

Again, I what I'm trying to say is, like,

ultimate like, that's a very small marginal part of Bitcoin's history.

Right? Like, we're at the beginning. There's the transition, and then there's, like, the Bitcoin world. So I'm just trying to get people to think through, like,

what the world might look like after that that the

like, we're at 0.001%

adoption. Right? Something along those lines. Like, I define adoption 40,000,000 people or something. Sure. You know, and that's probably overoptimistic

because they're counting, like, heard of crypto and have an account at an exchange No. No. No. Like, Michael Salas of the world is saying, like, a 150,000,000, 200,000,000. Like, I try and be more conservative with it. Yeah. I mean, if you have any sort of conservative filtering, we're, you know, 8,000,000,000 people. Right? So we're not even close to 1%. Like, so we're way earlier than I think a lot of Bitcoiners are making credit for, which means that, like, this hockey stick up is gonna be

way more violent than we think.

And, like, where whatever the price action is right now is

it's nothing that's it like, the volatility is nothing compared to, like, you know, getting to 4,000,000,000 people using Bitcoin. Like, we haven't we haven't even

come to realize what any real meaningful adoption looks like yet. All of this price action is like a blip.


Very, very, very small blip. No. I'm I agree. I think I think people will look back. Right? And,

you know,

the idea that you're you're worried about buying Bitcoin at 21,000



is gonna be the same as

is is gonna be so trivial. It'll be it'll be the same idea as worrying about buying a 21100 or 28100 or worrying about buying a 210 or 280 or 2.80 or Yep. $21.28.

Right? Like, as time goes on, you start to realize those past

short term volatility

price swings or whatever are completely irrelevant. But that's where my

my feeling that I I you can't have enough Bitcoin comes from because it's it's

I I have spent so much time in this space,

and it's funny because, you know, everyone thinks they're late when they come into Bitcoin. Right? I I thought I was late when I came into Bitcoin. I've been in Bitcoin space for 10 years now. Right? I was extremely late when I came into Bitcoin. There was plenty of people that came in earlier than me.

There's that famous Bitcoin talk post where, like, I missed the bus, you know, like, I should have bought it 11¢ or whatever. Now it's, like, 30¢ or whatever. I missed the bus. I should have bought at a1000000. But my point is should have bought at a 100,000,000. My point is if I could have told,

younger Matt, if I could have told younger Odell,

you know, in 2015,


like, don't pull your foot off the gas. Just do everything possible

to enjoy your life, like, don't, you know, degrade your current life because you can die tomorrow. Like, you can just get hit by a fucking car, you know, a meteor can hit or whatever the fuck, you know. Yep. Trip and hit your head.

So enjoy your current life, but also at the same time, like, don't pull your fucking foot off the gas. Like, I I you just gotta keep trying to stack as many sats as possible humbly.

Christian Keroles:

Humbly. That's the key. But, like, I think a lot of people listen to the stack sats part, and they don't necessarily listen to the humble part. The humble part is the hard part. Look. It's a game of survival.

Exactly. The getting

any amount of s sats from the bottom of the s to the top of the s. Like,

I'm just I'm trying to, like, frame it. Like, any amount of SaaS that you can arbitrage between now and hyper Bitcoinization

is going to be stupid in a hyper Bitcoinized world. Like, more money than you can imagine. Because, like, that's how like, you gotta bake in progress. You gotta bake in, progress on a better system. Like, it's not even just progress on our current trajectory. Like, we are in the monetary dark ages, listening to the high priest of motherfucking fiat.

Like, like, how many of those people knew what the world would look like with electricity if if we're talking about the real dark ages. Right?



in we're living in an ancient world.

Like, literally in the like, compared to future hyper Bitcoin as world, we are living in the ancient

times, the olden days. Right. And that shit's gonna happen fast. Like, I think it I I really do agree with Blodgy. Like, when currencies devalue it, like, you know, it starts on the curve and then it's and it's over.

Like, it it just it happens fast. So,

you know, I'm not saying it's gonna happen 2030, 2050, whatever. I think it's gonna happen in our lifetime, so we need to make strategic decisions

to literally get our bodies and our sads that we have today

to the future world.

Like, it's

okay. Like, hey. You coulda told Matt in 2015, like, don't take your foot off the gas, but what does that look like? And, like, how does Matt optimize for survivability

and getting any, like, pre Hyper Bitcoinized Sats

to hyper Bitcoinized future world.

Like, that that that's my framing that I wanna talk about because it's just it's a whole another level of, like, thinking about survivability.

And, ultimately, like,

of going getting to being super fucking rich that you have lots and lots of optionality in the in a hybrid Bitcoin ass world,

if you have

multiple Bitcoins,

congratulations. You've

more than succeeded in getting enough stats for that accomplishment. Bitcoin is Bitcoin. Whatever. You have you have multiple 100,000,000 satoshi chunks. There you go.

You've more than succeeded on that part. Like, don't be one of those losers at in 2013

who topped out in sat count because you might be in the hyper Bitcoin as world with fewer sats, significantly fewer sats, because you didn't think of what

that scale of change is gonna look like.

Any of that make sense? Was that just a,


a No. I mean, I stupid ramble. No. No. I mean, I think that I I agree with you. First of all, I like how Parker,

frames it gradually then suddenly.

And I I do feel like we're either at the tail end of the gradually phase or the beginning of the suddenly, and does it doesn't really matter, but this feels like the moment. It feels like Bitcoin's moment

with the financial economic

chaos that's going on. People are starting to to really wake up.

I think I think I think on on on a risk adjusted basis,

Bitcoin has never been

more intriguing as

a potential asset to hold or

and and and as also to use. Right? I mean, holding is using, but to spend and to be able to spend without permission, you know, have no permission required to spend money. Huge? Because

Christian Keroles:

the the feeling of, like, using your Bitcoins for micropayments,

I really do think that that's one of the biggest reasons.


But I think, like, if you look back so you you use the dark ages as

a, metaphor. Right? Yeah.

But if you go even closer than that, you go to

the gold rush in

the early 1900, late 1800,

going out west, you know,

settling the Western United States, accumulating land, accumulating gold.

None of those people were bullish enough.

Right? Maybe some of them were,

but most of them weren't. Right? And so when I look at it,

I kinda look at it. Okay.

We are in this unique position where we

have a realization. We understand this. Right? And if you look at most people that have become


they are they have a focus. They have a focus, and they they basically have one big bet that they make that they make the lion's share of their success off of. It's not people diversifying. Diversification

is a way to

reduce the erosion of your wealth. It's not a way to build wealth or build success.

And this is our moment, like we were born

in this weird

I mean, everyone's born at different times, but

me and you were born at this weird time where it was, like, the inflection point between the analog and the digital world,

where we didn't grow up with cell phones, and we didn't grow up with social media. We didn't grow up with all this stuff, but we saw it all kind of happen.

And and we also ended up in a situation where

where Bitcoin was being nurtured and and and and was coming of age. Right? Was was happening. And and and to me, this is our moment.

And don't squander that moment. Right? And and I'm not saying make a leveraged bet. Right? I'm not saying, 8 pin, you wanna survive,

hence the stay humble part.

But, ultimately,

like, the goal has to be to stack as many sets as possible.

Like, there is no

any any


time spent on obtaining sats today is worth a 100 x the time spent

in maybe 10 years even. Right?

Or, like, who knows the time to scale. Right? But way better. Well, I probably way better. But, like, if I spend I if I spend an hour today trying to obtain sats,

I'm getting, like, 10 x on 4 years from now or something like that. Right?


if if you're talking if you're talking

as sats as a unit of time, if you're talking about sats priced in time,

then there's literally no better time than to try and obtain as many as possible.

So I I like, the thing is is, like, I'm not disagreeing with that at all. All I'm 37 SaaS is so low. It's, like, too low. I don't think 37 SaaS is generational wealth. Do you really do you really believe that or is it just

Christian Keroles:

I know every good medium is based in reality. My my whole thing is that let me explain 37 SaaS. 37 SaaS is the block reward in

95 years. Right.

So the only thing I know subsidy. Sorry. The block subsidy. Because transaction fees will probably be significantly more than 30%. I mean, I I agree with that too. I like, I'm I'm just talking about the block subsidy.

All I know

is that

if Bitcoin works,

then more hashes

than any single person on this planet can even begin to fathom

will be directed

every 10 minutes at acquiring that block. Right.

So it's either

37 stats is worth more than all of the hashes that are being directed at the network today by orders and orders and orders of IPTV. Fees. Plus plus transaction fees, or

it's not.


I'm I'm just trying to, like,

grok that. Right? So the only thing that I can say is that, like,

the whole network focused on one block every single time, like, that's an enormous

fucking amount of,

if we're in hyperbitcoinization,

what all of the energy on the planet is going to be doing.

And trying to, like, relate that to

whatever we think today, it it like, it's it's

you have to have your mind blown. No. I agree. I agree. We can't no one can comprehend. So,

like, if, like implications. What what does 37 status equals generation wealth? It's I'm literally trying to, like, irk people from thinking about Bitcoin to a1000000. Like Right. Think about, oh, Bitcoin's gonna be worth 10 x more in, like, my time will be worth 10 x more now acquiring Bitcoin than in 10 years. Like, no, bro. It's like, Bitcoin's gonna happen really fucking fast,

and it's like the move from the bottom of the s to the top of the s is gonna

be 1,000 on 1,000 on 1,000 on 1,000 of multiples.


yes, obviously, you should spend as much time acquiring and getting Bitcoin from the bottom of the s to the top of the s,


you need to get to the top of the s too. Right. Right? Like, the Bitcoin part, check the box. You're good. Like, I'm not saying you should not continue to acquire SaaS, but,

like, you also need to put some focus on survivability.

You need to put some focus on making sure the sats can are survivable. That's the stay humble part.

That that's why this is a stay humble podcast because the stay humble part of stay humble sax sats is,

like, drastically



CK wanted to name drastically underrated. CK wanted to name this podcast Stay Humble, but I didn't think anyone would listen to it

Christian Keroles:

if it was just Stay Humble. It's not as sexy as as the title I chose. Which shows the problem here. Like, the Stay Humble part is actually the way better part of the advice


even though the stacking sats part is also extremely important. The stay humble part is the hard part. We have, by the way, the reason And the more important part. The reason why I laughed was because nope, not today on YouTube said lots of sexual tension in this rip, which is why I laughed. But he also said he had a really good comment. I'm curious what your response is here. Yeah. He said, it's better to have stacked and lost than to never have stacked at all.

Christian Keroles:

Sure. My goal is to stack as much as possible and stay solvent as to never lose.

Yeah. Stay humble. Stack sets. So, like, again, like, it's like, maybe it's better to stack and to have lost, but personally like, again, I'm not saying to not stack as much as you can. I'm saying that, like, you need to weigh your your priorities



of that stack. Like,

bring that all time high stack stack count across the finish line. Don't have a bunch of fucking


Well, I think losses. Don't get discouraged if if, you know, you don't have your all time. Like, a lot of big corners, like, live in the shadow of their all time high sad amount. I mean, that Sure. I mean, I didn't learn

I I don't pretend that I'm the most humble person in the world. One of the reasons I say it so much is to remind myself to stay humble, but, like, it didn't just come to me one day. Like, I got wrecked multiple times,

before I realized that the name of the game is survival. You actually you need to actually survive, and and there's a lot of confirmation bias out there if you look on Twitter or whatnot.

Oh, this guy is amazing trader. Oh, this guy is, like, he's done so well. It's like, you only see the survivors.

All the people that we've lost along the way, they're just not there anymore. Right? You just don't even see them.

Christian Keroles:

Totally. Look. My goal is the same as yours, to help

give people the best chance of having the most sats at the finish line.



Christian Keroles:

Like, I'm just saying that there's more to this formula than the stacking sats part.

A lot of it has to do with the staying humble and survivability part. And I'm just trying to say that

if you think through

from first principles

what the world moving on

to Bitcoin looks like, infinity divided by 21,000,000,

if you will. Good meme.


Sounds like you have enough sat. In in what, like, in what world,

is your current sat count right now,

like, for the people listening to this show,

not good enough in that world for you to be

more than for you and your and generations

of your lineage to be more than content.


Yeah. I mean, I I would think that most of

our most of the audience of dispatch is

probably at a point


they will be, you know,

doing better than the majority of the world,

in a hyper Bitcoin situation.

Christian Keroles:

All worlds with don't know. Technological

progress has always made more wealth for the lowest common denominator.

So, like, for example, like, right now, we probably live better than than the richest people in ancient Egypt by orders of magnitude.


Right. Right?

Christian Keroles:


if you project that forward and, again, like, the whole point about Bitcoin is, like, the fiat system is inefficient bullshit. We don't have energy where we need it.

Mon the monetary system is

un it it inhibits us from allocating wealth accurately.

So, theoretically,

if Bitcoin is right and it's the thing that is going to upgrade humanity,

like, infinity gets bigger.


Right? Right. So it's 21 infinity divided by 21,000,000 Yeah. That's what the end Infinity. The Bitcoin deniers don't understand that part. The people that just say, like, you can't have a deflationary currency.

Christian Keroles:

Well, sure. But

the Bitcoiners should the Bitcoiners should think this. Right? Right. Like, so Infinity is gonna get bigger. So, you know, not only are we moving from, you know, an ancient dark monetary world, the dark ages of of the monetary


we're going into, like, the the enlightenment of that. Right? We we're the fix like, Jeff Booth tries to describe this. It's like you can't measure the new system by the old system.

Like, you you have to completely divorce your brain from that. So, again, like, I want everyone to have maximum sass across the finish line. I'm just trying to ring the bell that, like, there's more to it, and you talk about this all the time. I just think that, like, the

we don't emphasize the survivability element. And, okay, I'm living a normal life. You know? I live in the US. You know? For the most part, I'm pretty average. Like, it's not like I'm going doing extreme things to survive.

But, you know, one of the biggest

things that you can do is, like, staying solvent and, like, being humble with your stacking

for where you're biasing


rather than risk taking. Right. Personally, like, I I just I think that is good advice. And if you think about the the the the actual

success story of this thing, like,

you made it. Good job. You, like, if you're listening to the show, you bait you, like, you you you figured out the sat part. Hasn't happened yet. You gotta get it across the finish line. Hasn't happened yet.

Sure. So stay solvent between now and then. Like, focus on that.


I I think you said a word maybe 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago, optionality.

Right? Yeah. And

and the the more sets the more sets you can stack today,

the more optionality you have in the future. How about stack and keep? Yeah. Stack and keep. I mean, I wouldn't I mean, first of all, to be absolutely clear, I I think most of the freaks who listen to the show already understand. If if you're not holding self custody,

you're not stacking sets. You're stacking IOUs.

So I've had people say to me, oh, you should add

hold your own keys at the end of stayable stacks. It's it's

implied. Otherwise, you're not stacking sites, you're stacking IOUs. You're gonna get rugged eventually.

You wanna learn the tools. You wanna learn how to use the tools. We might have adversarial environments that get much worse

in in your different countries. We don't know, you know, we have a global audience here at dispatch, but in

You don't wanna

you don't wanna learn this stuff as the crises are kind of unfolding and and everyone's freaking out and running to the exits and and things are becoming illegal and stuff like that. Right?

Christian Keroles:

No. Yeah. I I a 100% agree. Like, the the the educating to the best practice, like and most of this talk is towards, like, hardcore Bitcoiners who've who've been here for a little bit. Like, I understand,

like, people have their goals. You should get to your goals. I think people should think about their goals and, like, apply that to

to theirs to their, you know, their life mission. Like, this is a little bit of, like, personal finance advice.

But not to redirect the the conversation a little bit, but let's, like, talk through, like, the hyper Bitcoinization or Bitcoin scenarios in general. Let's talk to it. The way I see the way I think about Bitcoin playing out is there's 3 likely scenarios for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin works

and infinity divided by 21,000,000.

I personally think that's the that's the most likely scenario, but I I'm talking my book. I'm Right. I'm very into Bitcoin. I think that, you know, I'm I'm obviously convinced. You're all in. Yeah.

I mean, definitely all in with my time. Yeah. So there's no question there. It's all that matters. Yeah. Next likely scenario is Bitcoin fails.

Right. So that and and when I say fail, I mean, like, irrelevant.

Like, for example, like, do you know what the potential operating systems of, you know, the Internet or the potential,

the the the potential


Like, the competitors Yeah. Competitors

Christian Keroles:

PCIP. PCIP. Do you know about any of that stuff? Like, how often do you think about that? How relevant is that to your life? Right. So, like, Bitcoin could fail. It could be like that. 0. No one gives a shit about it. Maybe there's, like, some history about it. Whatever.

Like, that's the next likely scenario. And then the 3rd most likely, but the least likely of these of the scenarios

is Bitcoin is just another asset.

Right? So that's actually the reality we live in right now. So you think that's the least likely? That yeah. By far, that's the least likely. 0 or 1 or

Yeah. I mean, I think it's far more likely for Bitcoin to fail than for us to be, like, in this multi chain,

multi like, not even multi chain, like, multi store of value asset world.

Like, I think that that is like, this is the anomaly right now. You either think Bitcoin sucks all the air out of the room or it doesn't. Yeah. Or it fails. Exactly.

And, I mean, no one is is really willing to think about, like,

what that actually looks like or very few people are. But,

you know,

if I'm gonna be planning, the the the least likely thing I'm planning for is is the third scenario.

And the the next two most likely things that I'm planning for is Bitcoin everything or Bitcoin nothing. How are you planning for Bitcoin nothing? You're, like, completely fucked if if that happens. I mean, guns, bullion, survival skills,

trying to, you know, understand

the get as close as possible to the money printer. I mean, there's a lot of different things that you can do to try to plan for that that the Bitcoin zero scenario. I mean, right now,

it feels like the Bitcoin


success story is is escalating. I'm a big believer in ammo as a

Christian Keroles:

Yeah. So good as as as it's just a good thing to stack in general Sure. Skills. I'm just trying to say, like, calibrate toward like, I'm trying to calibrate towards what the future is actually gonna look like. So,

in the Bitcoin everything scenario,

I just think that

any amount at the bottom of the s is stupid at the top of the s because we can't think exponentially.


if you if you think about the thinkers of the past projecting into the future, like, not only were they off, but they are off by

insane insane

amounts. Like, not even close. Like, Nikola Tesla and and Ford were, like, the only people that could think through, like, what Bitcoin looked like back in the you know, just a 100 years ago. When I say 37 Sats equals generational wealth, that's 95 years from now. This 37 SaaS is the block reward. Right. That's about a similar

time scale. You know? And we're talking about we're living in a digitally connected Internet viral meme world that is exponentially faster than that old world. We have,


rider die freak,

Finch, who's gonna lose a bunch of money because the mempools aren't gonna clear again by the end of the year,

in the chat saying, he thinks scenario 3 is way more likely than Bitcoin dying. I

I kind of agree with him. I think,

I don't know. I mean, that's the current status quo. Right? That's what it that's where we currently are at.

We're currently at a situation where Bitcoin is one asset out of many assets. I also I mean, I don't think shitcoins I think shitcoins are gonna exist forever. I, you know, I don't think

individual Shitcoins will outperform Bitcoin is is my thesis. I think they all trend to 0.

Christian Keroles:

Well, Shitcoins will exist just like the the lottery still exists. Like, there's just And the lottery is extremely successful. There's gonna be stupid people.

People are greedy. Right? But, I mean, at the same time, like, a Bitcoin world will has way different incentives. And, like,

any group of population at any given time during the arc of modernity

can't relate to their previous arc. So it's just really difficult to, like,

you know, to put that into context. Right? Like, can you relate at all to, like,

any arcs in, you know, the early kingdoms,

of Europe?

You know, like, any populations there? Like, if you met that person, a person from that time, you'd be like meeting, an alien, like a crazy person. Right. So,

again, like, I'm just trying to like, Bitcoiners are so sometimes so fiat minded. You know? Like, they're not thinking exponentially into the future. They're thinking they're still operating on, like,

our current scale of progress, like, what the world looks like today, like, the base assumptions.

And I just think that it's irrational to think that way about Bitcoin.

Like, that's not Bitcoin's nature. Like, that's not the arc of technology as it takes a grip of the world.

Like, what logically happens is exponential growth and a complete re

redesign of everything. Right.

Like, being more bullish is logical in this sense. Like like, thinking in stupid hyperbole numbers around Bitcoin

is the logical

first principled

way of trying to articulate its arc.

Like, we're all way too stupid to be bullish enough if it's actually true,


if it actually works out. Yeah. No. I mean, I'm a very simple person. I just

I think Bitcoin accrues value over time

with adoption, and I think adoption will increase with need, and I think the need is apparent and will become more obvious to people over time.

So you go down that route, and it's like, okay. I don't have enough sats. The way I look at it is so you said

the way the way I look at it with my family at least is

and I the freaks are probably intimately aware of this already, but

I expect

in 20 years, I'll be living in a cabin in the woods.

Now, if if Bitcoin's as successful as I expect it to be, I will own the land. And if Bitcoin doesn't, I'll be, like, squatting on federal land or some shit like that.

But no matter what, like, that is gonna probably be the a similar end game, and and the difference there is essentially optionality.

And I don't know where else I would store my time. I just don't have any other real options. There's no other good options for me to store my time.

When you look at store values, gold doesn't work.

It's really hard to take custody. Take custody. It's really hard to verify. It's really hard to do any kind of transfers. You wanna transfer $4,000,000 in gold, you need to hire armored trucks and whatnot. It's fucking insane. You're gonna put it on planes.

Real estate,

you know, number one real estate market in the world was Hong Kong.


jurisdictional reasons, you know,

worthless. Right?

One of the largest real estate markets in the world was New York. Right? And then they decided to close close all the restaurants

and basically socialize all the apartments. Right? So real estate is not really a good store value at all,

investment real estate.

And then so, like, you, like, you, like, look at all your options. You know? The stock market is completely fucking rigged,

and and you're kind of left with with Bitcoin as as this only as the only real option where you have property rights, you know,

governed by math and

and protected.

Christian Keroles:

Like, in theory. That's why I think it's very unlikely that it's just another asset.


Yeah. But, I mean, I would say that's why it's unlikely that it goes to 0 or disappears

or fails.

Christian Keroles:

Well, it fails or goes to 0, like, if the game theory is broken

or if,

there is something that makes it irrelevant.



if something makes it irrelevant, like, ultimately, that'd be good for mankind.

Like, I don't think that's likely.

And if the game theory is broken, like, you know, a lot of Bitcoiners are, like, harping about, like, what's wrong with the game theory? So, like, that the jury is still out there.



Christian Keroles:

But I I personally think the game theory


incredibly attuned, and it's actually dynamic.

It's not it's always upgrading the like, the game theory of Bitcoin is always upgrading

because the world is always changing, and our understanding of Bitcoin is always changing. Yeah. Nobody understands Bitcoin. I strongly believe that nobody understand. Like, I don't understand Bitcoin. Yeah. So, I mean, I just admit I admit that in my price projections, and I just, like, you know, try to correct to the hyperbolic bullish side

because I actually think that's logical.


Yeah. So you don't have enough Bitcoin.

Christian Keroles:


and, again, like, the whole point is, like, I wanna have the maximum assets on the other side. Exactly. What does but, again, like Do we disagree on everything? What do we disagree on?

I think we disagree on on

the narrative

and the framing. But And what is that?

Well, how to get to the other side with the most amount of SaaS, I think maybe I don't even know if we disagree, but, like, giving that investment advice, I think maybe we disagree on. I'm not giving investment advice. I'm giving life


advice. Same shit.

Christian Keroles:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's hard to have a life without good investment.

Well, I'm not I'm not the type of person that says all this shit and then it's, like, not investment advice. You know? I mean, and Look. Bitcoiners love giving investment advice. I'm giving investment advice right now, not investment advice. It's a podcast. But, you know, I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to get people to think about Bitcoin a certain way and then actually apply that to how they make decisions in life. Right. So, like, look, you could think about priorities.

Yeah. And, like,

priorities being attuned to

likely scenarios in the future

make them strategic.

Right? They make them powerful.

Like, if your priorities are misaligned, then, like, it kinda wrecks you because you're dumping your time into


that doesn't get you, you know, doesn't get you where you wanna be. Well, so let's let's talk about


let's talk about what priorities

might supersede

stacking SaaS.

Christian Keroles:

Yeah. So the the whole point of the priorities

that may supersede stacking SaaS are things that help you bring

the maximum amount of SaaS across the finish line. So, like, let's just be clear. Like, sometimes you have to


adding a little bit more to your supply, you know, to make a good decision. Right? So, like, maybe

getting land at a certain period of time

is worth it. Like Agreed. Maybe investing in hardware walls that matter is worth it. Right?


Agreed. Ammo Building strong local communities.

Christian Keroles:

Yeah. All that. Absolutely integral.

A 100%.

You know, thinking


thinking through,

teaching people how to get the Bitcoin you have and make sure it actually makes it to your family Inheritance. If if like, the inheritance element.

Like, that like,

that if if you have

a million sats, you know, 1 21th of the entire network,

and you die and no one knows how to get it

Right. It's done. It doesn't even matter. So, like, just because you accumulated that many sats,

like, your error was that you you didn't have a level one to pass it on to, and you didn't teach them, and they didn't understand how to do it. Like, look yourselves in the face. Like, your inheritance plan is equally as important as your stat sack your sat stacking,

if you actually are serious about giving it to someone else.

If you're actually, like, serious about your children, not just you. Care about generational wealth rather than just personal

wealth. Yeah. I mean, like, again, you could die tomorrow. I could walk out this building and get hit by a car. Like, you know, I Like, both ways, freak. Sometimes I drive like an asshole. Like, you know, who knows? Like, there's there's plenty of I can think through my twenties, and I can think of so many times I got lucky that I wasn't dead. Right. Right? So that, like, that paradigm hasn't ended either.

So, you know, there again,

I'm not saying

don't stack stats. I'm saying there's a lot of things to think about that are more more the the goal, which is, like, be wealthy in hyperbitcoinization.


We have John here talking about children. Obviously, children are very set set expensive. Right? I would say that's a fulfilling endeavor.

Christian Keroles:

You also need that for the future. Like, you will decay and and end.

You know?

So, again, like I agree with all this.

The only you know, my whole thing is, like, if you apply

the proper bullishness on your stats,

you appreciate the stats you already have a lot more, and

you might think about, like, the longevity of those stats. Because, again, like, the hyper Bitcoinized world,

any term any amount of Bitcoin that we have right now will be stupid then. I can't emphasize that enough. But you're over you're over indexing


on that side of the equation. There's

the overwhelming majority of people

that own and use Bitcoin today are thinking on the opposite.

They they think on the opposite level. They they think,

you know, a Bitcoin is up 10 x in fiat terms. Like, I need to rebalance and and reduce my Bitcoin position.

They're not thinking, you know,

like, that that's the overwhelming majority of people

right now. Right? Is is So yeah. I mean, again, I'm talking to the hardcore Bitcoin. And if you ask, like, anybody over the last

not 20 years. If you ask anybody over the last, you know, 14 years,


the the reality is is the majority of them went through, like, this rebalance phase where they were like, oh, Bitcoin commands too much. Because if you wait long enough, if we're, I mean, if we're right, and historically, this has been the case,

Christian Keroles:

like, Bitcoin if you don't do anything, Bitcoin will just be your entire net worth. Yeah. Bitcoin puts you on 0 by itself. Like, you don't have to do anything to get on 0. Eventually, Bitcoin will just put you on 0. Eats your portfolio or whatever. Yeah. Well, it just it appreciates,

exponentially faster than all that stuff. So, like, I guess what I'm trying to say is, like,

the best thing that any person can do today is acquire amount of Bitcoin that they can get to hyper Bitcoinization.

Because on

on the on the path to hyperbitcoinization,

it will put you on 0 by itself. You don't have to do anything about it.

The key is getting it over there. And, like, look. I'm not my my advice is not to get only 37 stats. You should get a lot more than 30 My advice is get as many as you can actually get across the finish line because we can't fathom

the future Bitcoin world

in we can't fathom the future Bitcoin world in Bitcoin terms.

Like, we I don't have a very, very hard time doing it. But if we actually get to that world, again, 3 scenarios,

Bitcoin eats everything, Bitcoin 0, Bitcoin is just another asset.


if Bitcoin eats everything,

then we can't fathom what the world looks like in Bitcoin terms, but we should try to get there. We should try to get our Bitcoin there

with whoever we care about to have it, you whether it's us or them,

whether it's me or or my children.

Like, that's where we are in history. So it's like, get as much as you can. Yes. Get as much of San Francisco as you can going out west. Right? Buy it all up. Like, be Buy all the land in Wyoming. But don't be like, no one remembers the guy who bought all the land and then lost it. Right. No one remembers that guy. Like, you can't like, and guess what? If you just bought one apartment in San Francisco and held it from those days

versus someone who had it all and then had nothing when it actually when San Francisco actually rose to prominence, then, like, you're doing better.

Like, the one apartment

actually the the one hit is better, the 37 stats, the 3,500,

whatever you wanna call it,

from the bottom part of the s curve

is is worth it on the top of the s curve. And if you own an apartment in San Francisco, you sell it for Bitcoin right now. Absolutely. I'm just you you brought up the going west example. That is investment advice. I'm trying to I'm just trying to, you know, stick stick to that that example of going west and

and and leveraging, you know, the the ability of the land grab.

Like, hey. Who remembers the people who owned New York and then don't own it anymore? Who who didn't see, like, the okay.

Before the Dutch Who who remembers them? You know? Who remembers those people? No one. Like, you need to the point is, like, Bitcoin matters when we're in hyper Bitcoinization. Like, it it won't fulfill its full potential for your your It won't matter today. It matters today. I mean, 2 weeks ago 2 weeks ago,


there was a bunch of rich people that were freaking out that their money wasn't

in the banks,

never was. Mhmm.


I slept easy that night, right, because I had

I had permissionless censorship resistant money that wasn't controlled by a company or government.

That was today. I mean, that was 2 weeks ago. Right? Like, it's that's that's the present.

Christian Keroles:

Again, I I I agree. Like, you should educate yourself about this as quickly as possible, acquire as many sats, and continue to, you know, accumulate,

but with the focus of longevity of getting into hyperbitcoinization.

Yeah. No. This makes sense to me. This you gotta stay humble. It's a game of survival. It's always a game of survival. So Always has been. One thing that helps you survive is obviously being around other Bitcoiners and, like, the circular economy. And, like, Bitcoiners are already onto this stuff. Like, I'm just trying to, like, ring the bell about, like, how important all the other stuff is

to the survivability of your sats. And I'm trying to tell people that your sats today


like, get more bullish about them and and

take more care about them and ensure their survivability

even more than

acquiring marginal stats. Like,


a world I'm trying to be as logical as possible. Like, in a future Bitcoin world where Bitcoin is the denominator,

like, if you have any reasonable amount of Sats today,

you are stupid rich in that world.

Far richer than you could have ever imagined, but the key is to have it there, is to have it

then. And we're still early. Like, we're still less than 1% global adoption. So everything that we've seen so far will most likely look nothing like what the future looks like.



I agree.

Christian Keroles:

We we always agree, Matt. It's just about the the the orders of, of magnitude of bullishness. Just an hour arguing over semantics.

You gotta love it, man. That's why we're friends.


But I I mean so I just want to

to me, like, one of the most important goals

is strong local communities.

Is is if I look at I mean, we'll go back to my doom or optimism.

The show is called Ciel Dispatch.

I believe in this idea of Citadel theory, this idea of hyperlocalism.

I think

these large centralized institutions

have done us wrong. They're corruptible by nature,

and as a result, we have to

go back to the basics. Go back to the basics of these very strong,


local communities

that work together and and stand up for each other, but then also there there'll still be global trade. And because of Bitcoin,

global trade is has less friction. Right? And because of other technologies, global trade will have less friction. I mean, I had remember I had a conversation with Bitcoin sign guy back in

fact, like, almost 4 years ago now today, where we were talking about, like, onion routed drones and stuff,

you know, transferring goods between different local communities paid for with Bitcoin. Lightning didn't really exist yet, but, like, now you could imagine it with Lightning involved as well.

And, obviously, that's a major focus for both of us,

in in this idea of of of nurturing

and and

and making these communities more robust and and making Bitcoin stronger together. I'm a strong believer that together, Bitcoiners are way stronger than individually. Right? It's like the twig,

analogy. Right? Like, one twig is easy to break, but if you put a bunch of twigs together, it's it's hard to break the twigs together.

Christian Keroles:

Yeah. We need to keep building the Bitcoin Coalition. Right? And Yeah. And, like, with the small towns or the small communities or the citadels,

the way I, like, I I agree with that vision. Like, I'm open minded to seeing that change. But my mental model is everything from

every institution from, like, religion to

knowledge, to language, to math, to,

governments, to military, all of that stuff, everything,

table manners,


all of that is to achieve further scale for human beings.

Like, human beings are constantly

coming up with new ways to further scale.

Right. So Bitcoin is the next step to increase our scaling ability,

and the way that we behave on Bitcoin

will actually lead to a more scalable future. And I do think, like, this idea of, like, small,

tight knit local communities,

citadels, if you will, competing jurisdictions

that increases scale, that increase optionality, that will exponentially increase value for the planet.


you know, follow just kind of following the ways of Bitcoin

is moving us towards that brighter, better,

more bullish future

per set.



No. I agree.

Christian Keroles:

But, I mean I'm on the same page there. Let let's pivot to, like, the kinda community part. And Yeah. Again, like, people are always like, why should I spend money to go to the Bitcoin conference or any other event? Right?

Or anything. Yeah. Like, why shouldn't I just, like, sit there and sack stats? Like, that's great. But, like, there's an awesome opportunity

to meet Bitcoiners, to

spend more of your time in the space by becoming employed in the space or whatever

at these in person gatherings. And not to say that you should spend your sats on that, but, like,

the benefits of building the other elements of what's gonna get you across the finish line

is it's really important, and it's it's something that, you know, Bitcoiners should value just as much as they kind of value,

you know,

stacking stats and and

whatever they do around Bitcoin.


Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a value there. Right? Like, the people have to make

a a educated decision, right, basically,

on everything where their sats are are worth being placed. Right?

And I think there's,

so we have,

you know, love it or hate it. So, you know,

when you throw an event that is

over 20,000 people

last year, we had over 20,000 people in in Miami.

There's gonna be things that people don't like. Right? And there's gonna be things that are very positive.

And and and that's what you see on an event of that kind of scale,

but there's there's nothing like it. There's, like, Miami

Bitcoin Conference Miami,

there's nothing even

comes close to comparing to the the sheer scale of that kind of gathering of Bitcoiners. There's just so many people.

Christian Keroles:

Yeah. I mean, I like to call it the physical manifestation

of the Bitcoin ecosystem every single year. Right? So it's not everything. It's not everyone. But once a year,

like, there's a shelling point where everyone kinda comes together. So Fucking overwhelming.


In a in a positive and negative way. It does not you know? And the thing is is, like, the that that,

Christian Keroles:

that shelling point can change. Right? That shelling point is, like, the Bitcoin ecosystem, but right now, it it is Miami, and being a part of that is,

like, it's very intoxicating. And I know we were just talking about the FOMO of Nasirica, and I'm sure we would have liked to, like, pull some pull some strings to been able to be there. But,

like, the energy is intoxicating when you have, like, this kind of shelling point of an idea come together. Nasr yeah. Nasr yeah. Nasr is the closest thing to Bitcoin FOMO I've ever had. You know?


A a massive,

shout out to everyone who ran that

event. I I was watching virtually,

but it's never the same actually being in person.


Christian Keroles:

Definitely not. You know? I had good personal reasons. People virtually


Yeah. I had good personal reasons for not making it out there, but,

that seems like a great event. So, I mean, CK, like, you've rose to

leadership within within Bitcoin Magazine.

How do you look at running an event of that

of that size, of that scale? Like, how do you how do you think about it? I mean, obviously, like, you must see

you see all the different pieces. Right? You see how the sausage is made. Like, how do you think about it?

Christian Keroles:

I mean, it's it's just a


input project. Like, I really do think of it as, like, this, like, just massive project,

with, you know, thousands and thousands of stakeholders, whether it's the people who view it virtually, attend,

make it make it possible by sponsoring or

create a stage and create a platform and create a place

that is good enough to attract

and to, like, bring together the most amount of stakeholders in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

So it's like that challenge of, like, how do you plan something that's worthy, and how do you, like, put together something that will delight,

like, as many stakeholders as possible and help Bitcoin move forward and open the door to Bitcoin culture and what Bitcoin,

is to as many people as possible,

and and do that well. Right? Like Right. You know, be able to get people in the door, like, without waiting in lines. Like, make sure everyone has, like, a comfortable place to be. Make sure, like,

you know, you are having the the business conversations that you wanna have. Make sure that you are able to,

display to the public what you've been your project or your company's been working on, you know, for an entire year. You know, it's like just putting all those pieces together, prioritizing,

making everyone happy, making the city of Miami Beach happy. You know, they wanna get rid of spring break, so they want us to, like, help crowd out, you know, the riffraff and, like, just all this, like, crazy stuff. You know? Like, it's


a massive, massive

endeavor for less than a 100 people to to put on and and to Tiny team. And to make people and, again, like, make

a massive group of people with very different interests happy.


People don't realize how small the team is. And making it financially possible too. It's Not lose all your stats in the process.

Christian Keroles:

You know, David David Bailey prioritizes,

the Bitcoin community over sat count on many on many levels. You know? Like, I've definitely would not be as,


gung ho about making awesome experiences happen as as David Bailey is. You know? He's just always trying to do bigger, better,


more. It's crazy. Well, I remember, like,

so Bitcoin 2019 was awesome.

It's, like, 25100


And then Bitcoin 2020,

was supposed to be in LA,

and it was

early April or late March was when that was supposed to happen. So it was it was literally, like, 3 weeks after the lockdown sent the whole country.

So that got scrapped.

The company went into, like, pure survival mode.

Then Bitcoin 2021

was, like, the great comeback story.

There was, like, 13,000 people there.

That team was

I mean, I I started working with you in that, when you started helping. It was around Was before that one. Like was Yeah. Leading up to that. Was fall 2020. Yeah. I didn't lead up to that. That team was, what, like, 25 people

or something like that put on a 13,000 person event.

Dylan McClaire was selling t shirts. Yeah. I mean, Dylan was, like, 12 years old.

That was pure chaos.

That it was it was it was

structured chaos in the lead up to that event.

People don't I,

like, I don't think people really realize, like, what I I I probably aged that those 2 months in the lead up of that, like, might have aged, you know, 5 years, 10 years,

just on that process. And then so then


was a was was insane.

And then 2022 was, like how many people came to 2022?


And the team maybe doubled in size. Maybe it was, like, 60 people, 70 people. Right? Yeah. Doubled in,

Christian Keroles:

we we doubled in what we thought was our sophistication, but the complexity

increased by more than that too. So Yeah.

It's crazy.


Like, that we're gonna about to hit 2023 in 55 days. 55 days, man. And then in between there was Bitcoin Amsterdam

Yep. Which was awesome because we got to meet all the

there's a huge Dutch community.

Christian Keroles:

Amsterdam is such an awesome city too. It's a really cool city to just hang out in. I'm I'm working hard to make Bitcoin Amsterdam a reality again, by the way. Gonna happen again?

I'm working hard. You're working on nothing. I'm applying I'm applying tremendous amounts of pressure to our our Dutch counterparts.


Yeah. No. That's good. And then the print magazine came back in the meantime. Just it's amazing how quick time flies.

Christian Keroles:

The new one's gonna be fired too. They kinda should get hyped about that. That's a collectible with, with stacking.


So I'd be remiss if I didn't mention,

we are

doing the same open source ticket program that we did last year,

but expanded even more projects.

So I think right now, we're at 46 open source projects, contributors to those projects with a commit before March 1st, get a free ticket to Bitcoin 2023.

We're gonna try and hit 60 projects.

I keep adding projects as

Christian Keroles:

as as as we find them. Yeah. I mean, I keep pushing Matt. I want 2 I wanna give 200,

open source contributors tickets to the event. That's more than double what we did last year. Right. We did a little over a 100 last year. Yeah. So I'm pushing Matt hard to be, like, find more projects with people who wanna come. So I'm happy to give away tickets to the open source contributors that do so much in this space. I mean I mean, so it's the least that we can do. And, again, the open source contributors coming to the event brings so much wealth and relevance. So you know that guy, Finch, who was giving you shit Yeah.


In the comments earlier? Sure. And also he's gonna lose the mempool bet. Yeah. He became an open source contributor between

last year and this year under the hope that we were gonna do the program again.

And now he's coming to Miami with a free ticket, and that's exactly what we wanna see. We wanna see, first of all, Freaks, the reason there's a a date

that is after our announcement

is because we don't want people going and spamming these projects with bullshit contributions.

But, also, we wanna see

more people go into the open source world. More people feel compelled to kind of contribute to this movement.

And I think Finch is a perfect example of that.

Totally. And thank you, Finch, for your what you've done for Bitcoin, and excited to shake your hand in Miami. Glad that we could save you some status on your ticket. He's been an Internet friend for, like, two and a half years. I don't think I shook his hand yet unless he didn't he didn't tell me and came up to me and shook my hand. Well, you know, the first time we met, I, like, introduced myself without, like, doxing my my Internet identity. Oh, yeah. Fuck c k, man. He, like, he was, like, hi. I'm Christian. And then, like, we had a whole lunch or whatever, and I already knew him as c k snarks. And I figured out maybe, like, a week later or half a week later that put 2 and 2 together.

Christian Keroles:

You know, let's just try not to fanboy too hard, Matt. I will say that. If you do come dinner though or a good lunch. If you come up to me in Miami,


and we know each other through the Internet, just introduce yourself as your name. Like, don't introduce yourself as Paul or whatever and have us have, like, a 10 minute conversation and then tell me your name. Like, just you know, that's your name. That's how I know you. So,

just consider it. But if you do have I mean, we have a lot of open source contributors that listen to dispatch. I probably don't say it enough,

but there there is this program. So if you if you wanna come to Miami, you're an open source contributor,

your project is probably listed already.

Go to,

and you can apply there.

And, we'll get you we'll get you a free ticket.

Christian Keroles:

Let's go.


ticket grants, and it's a 3 day ticket. So every single day, you get it. I think we could blast by

2 this time. You know, I will I will up the the,

what's it called? Our our inventory, the quota, the limit.

Let's let's smash 200. Let's go, guys.

But, yeah. I mean, again, I I'm I would like to show all Bitcoin events. Like, get together with Bitcoiners and and build that community. Come to Bitcoin Park. Come visit us here. The one of the best things about Nashville I mean, like, Rod and Matt, you know, they did a lot to kind of, like, bring a lot of momentum here with the National Bitcoin Meetup, but, you know, obviously, creating the premier in person space in for Bitcoin here. And I get to enjoy you know, I'm a member. I get to enjoy,

when I'm not at the Bitcoin Magazine office, but it's incredible. And, again,

like, these spaces,

these kind of, like, small coalitions of Bitcoiners,

it helps move Bitcoin forward. You know? I'm really hopeful that we can do in Tennessee what the Texas guys have done in Texas.

And, you know, how how impactful is that for Bitcoin? Right? You know, not to say that the politicians are gonna be able to enable Bitcoin. I don't think they will, but we can help them see the light so they don't expose their constituents to pain.

And speaking of another event, you know, the Bitcoin policy, the b t policy BTC policy out of the park. Based out of the park. They're they're putting together

Bitcoin Policy Institute. Exactly. Bitcoin Policy Institute. Your show. I'm sorry, man. Thank you, Matt.

Always always pushing me, man. But,

so the beat the Bitcoin Policy Institute,

BTC atbtcpolicy

on Twitter,

they're putting on an event, and they're

exclusively trying to educate lawmakers and help them not make mistakes as it, you know, regards to Bitcoin and help them make, you know, their constituents' lives as easy as possible. And I think that that's definitely a gathering worth looking into as well just because

they're going to give, you know, the the people from the community that

should be talking to these regulators a platform.

And when you see what's coming out of the office of the president It's bad shit. You know, I don't I don't expect much out of them, but, like, you know, hurting Americans by,

by being undereducated

about Bitcoin

and being so far away from bullish enough on the value of SaaS post Hyper Bitcoin

ization, you know, that's all bad. So,


and trying to fix that and and try to,

mitigate as much damage as possible on that front, It's huge. Yeah. I mean, the freaks know that I


I think the corrupt politicians can be can go fuck themselves, and

I don't really think they can be reasoned with. But at the same time, I mean, while we start to see all of this chaos kind of unwind, I don't want my own government actively going after me,

and some policy advocacy is is very important in your local jurisdictions and even with your federal government. And there is no

other organization

besides the Bitcoin Policy Institute that I choose to support.

We give them free office space here at the park so they can operate out of here.

They're great guys, like Grant, David,

and all their fellows over there at at the Bitcoin Policy Institute, they they really do care, and they care about the right things. They're not, like, trying to protect the ability to dump securities on retail or,

you know, launch your own shit coin or launch your own exchange. Like, they're going to try and protect self custody, running your own node, using Bitcoin privately,

the things that actually do matter,

and they're making real progress

on very little money,

very shoestring budget. So to the freaks, I would say, probably,

you're probably better off just stacking stats for yourself, but if you're involved in a Bitcoin company in America if you're involved in a Bitcoin company in America, you are uniquely vulnerable to American regulation,

and a part of your budget should be focused on on supporting the Bitcoin Policy Institute and sending employees to

their events

and and helping them in any way you can because it is a existential threat to your business straight up. Like, you will make less money

if there's bad policy in America, and I hope to see many other policy institutes similar to this

in other countries around the world because, ultimately, Bitcoin is a global phenomenon.

Christian Keroles:

I 100% agree. Couldn't say that better myself, so I won't. But Bitcoin Policy Institute is putting on an amazing event. Check that out. When is that? Do we know when that is? It's end of April, so it's coming up before Miami, and they'll be at Miami too.

So check that out. Obviously,

the Bitcoin conference. If you can't be there in person, StackSats and, watch the livestream, that's free always.

But, you know, talking about some things that you can calibrate to that might help you get your SaaS across the finish line that may be worth a little bit of opportunity cost on SaaS. Matt, I think you might agree with this.

Stacking less sats but doing it KYC free Yep. Might help you get those sats across the finish line. And learn how to use it privately. I mean, personally, for me, this is just me.

All my KY seed sats,

I discount them to 0 in my head.

I have them if I get them across


fucking gravy, but the only real SaaS I have are the SaaS that I acquired the right way. All I have is 37 SaaS because that's generational wealth. So, if anyone asks, that's all I have. There we go. 37 sets. That's what I'm that's what I'm betting the the the house on, baby. 37 sets. CK, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining me in the studio. Before we wrap up, do you have any final thoughts?

Christian Keroles:

No. Hey. Stay humble.

That's the really important part of the advice. Stack sets, get them across the finish line.

And I'm here for the same goal. I'm here to help you

get as many stats across the finish line. I'm trying my best to get as many stats across the finish line, so stay bullish.


I love it. Appreciate you coming on. Appreciate you. You're a good friend.

I'm looking forward to Bitcoin Miami.

Love you, freaks. Thanks for joining us in the live chat.

I'll see you next week. I got some

I got some conversations in the works. It'll it'll be a good week next week.

So just stay tuned across all the channels. As always, you can find all the links at sill

Thank you for supporting the show. Thanks for coming to the live chat. I love you all. Stay humble, Stack Sats.