CD198: JUSTIN - FEDIMINT UPDATE

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Created: 04/07/2026 21:15:59
Duration: 3216.535
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch.

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The show focused on actual Bitcoin and freedom

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tech

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discussion.

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The current block height is nine four four zero

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seven three.

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SaaS per dollar is one four six six.

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Bitcoin price is $68,189.

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One Bitcoin in gold terms

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gets you 14.78

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ounces of gold,

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down 44%

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of the year against gold. That's one to watch.

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Today's date is Tuesday, April 7.

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The current time is seventeen hundred UTC. You'll be listening to this in a couple hours.

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As always, Freaks, Dispatch is supported by viewers like you. Our audience

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supports us with Bitcoin donations. Thank you for everyone who continues to support the show.

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The top Zap from last week was Rider Die Freak Mav twenty one

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with 10,000 sats, and he said, great rep. Thank you, Mav. Thank you, everyone else. If you don't have sets to support the show, best way to support the show is to share with your friends and family. The dispatch is available in every major podcast app by just searching civil dispatch.

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Or you can go to civildispatch.com,

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where we have all the relevant links for you.

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Also, I'm at it, check out citadelwire.com

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if you haven't in a bit. I made some updates

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to help you monitor the situation.

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Anyway, guys, with all that said, I got a great rip lined up. We had Justin join us from the project back in September.

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So what is that? That is about seven months ago, about a little over half a year.

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He works he's one of the main contributors

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for the Fediment open source project, not to be not to be confused by Fetty, the company

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that's building on top of the open source project. And he has a bunch of updates for us. How's it going, Justin?

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Good. Thanks for having me back on back on the show. I'm a big fan, so it's always fun to be here. Yeah.

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Love it. The pleasure's mine. We've been trying to coordinate this for a bit, so I'm glad we finally made it happen. And I in general, I really like this six month cadence covering important projects and seeing where we're at because things moved faster than people realize. People are both disappointed. Things both move slower Yeah. Than people anticipate,

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but then also move much faster than people realize. I think you, like, get stuck in, a disenfranchisement

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loop if you're

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if you're just paying attention to it every day. Right. Right.

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Definitely. Yeah. I think we've had we've had two real we try to do quarterly

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releases. So we've had, I think, two updates since the last time we we chatted. Maybe there was one that was right on the edge there.

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The big one for starters, and I think an interesting place to start here is the big release that you had

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talked about in the last rip we did was the eCash app.

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Mhmm. Yeah.

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What's the deal with that at this point?

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Yeah.

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We can start there. So eCash app,

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I didn't mention last time, but we're we're trying to position it kind of as, like, the reference client for Fetement.

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Maybe not in terms of, like, this is exactly how you should build a wallet, but it's gonna try to show, like, all the

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the details of what

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Fetevent's doing. So I don't remember which update we talked about last time, but No. It's brand new. Last time it was brand new. It was like, yeah, I think you had just released it. Okay. Yeah. We're on o seven o now or o seven one, I think. We have been shipping

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for that an update almost every two weeks.

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So there's a lot of UI improvements and stuff.

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But, yeah, it's it's generally

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it's a on chain Lightning and eCash wallet

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for Fetamin.

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And so we can do all three of those those payments.

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We we lean somewhat heavily into into Nostril. So we have, like,

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a Nostril based

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contact system now where you don't actually log in with Nostril. You can just give it a public key, your your end pub. So you can actually set it up for anyone's anyone's end pub. You could use, you know, hotels and,

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you know, see all your contacts to of who to pay.

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We have a so we have that. And then, like, on the other nostril beauty, we have nostril wall connect as well, which I always found fun to implement.

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We kinda have this

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Nostril based

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recovery mechanism as well, where it doesn't store we don't use Nostril for any, like, sensitive data. It's essentially we just store the invite codes for your

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the federations that you joined. We essentially have this problem where

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in in Federer, we have like a bit 39

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like recovery mechanism where you can write down your seed words and that will restore

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your secret for your wallet.

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But it doesn't tell you which federations that you were previously joined to. So unless you just remember that, which

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you might be a little confused when you recover. It's like, oh, where's my where's my money? So we yeah. We we use Nostra for that. We just encrypt the invite codes for the federations that you joined and then sort them on Nostra. And we actually derive the

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Nostra identity based off of the root secret from your seed phrase. So you really just need the seed phrase and all your all your money comes back in the federation.

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I

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first of all, I realized

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freeze. If you have no idea what Fediment is,

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go listen to a sale dispatch 178 because, like, we're kinda, like,

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going from that point. But just like a quick

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just a really quick one zero one on Fetamin.

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It's it's can be thought of similar to Cashew. It's another charming e cash implementation.

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But instead of having a singlement,

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right, that is managing the funds, you have a federation. So you can think of it like a multisig where you you would need multiple

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of the federated parties to collude in order to steal money or to make a mistake to lose money.

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Yeah. Exactly.

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Underneath the hood, it it is a multisig. Right? So for a federation with four, what do you call them, like, guardians?

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Each guardian holds one key to the multisig, and they all like, three in a typical deployment, three of three of the four I need to sign for any of the

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the money to move. Yeah. Our most I think yeah. Go on. I was there. Our most common deployments are are for Guardians,

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but we'd like to see

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larger deployments

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going forward. It's just you obviously need to, like, coordinate with the number of people to

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deploy one of those. So

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It makes it more complicated. There's more moving pieces. I think what a lot of people miss too is,

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you know, there's

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a lot of focus and maybe rightfully so, whether it's cashew or Fetamin on rug pull risk. Yeah.

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But the bigger issue is actually

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just

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unintentional

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uptime

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failures.

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Right? Where you can't access your money because guardians

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are offline. And so as you add more

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to the mix, you're obviously adding additional concerns on that front now. Yeah. You you stole a point I was just about to say. I think it's it's worth

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emphasizing

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actually because,

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like running

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because like so Fetamin's call like was Byzantine fault tolerant,

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but just running a a fault tolerant system where you can tolerate,

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you know, a server going down is

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is is difficult. Right? Like, that's kind of why

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these big companies have such value prop is that they they can maintain these high up times. And for Fetamin, any just e cash in general, like you said, like,

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the the purpose is to kinda target communities and have known people that you interact with running these things. And so it it kind of puts like more,

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say like average node runners in the position of running

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running a service, which as you mentioned, like even if they're being, you know, not malicious at all, it's a difficult

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thing to

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like pull off with high uptime. So

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yeah, it's nice and fediment that that's kind of tied in just to the trust model where if a server goes down, like the system doesn't stop stop working. And I don't I won't say it's this, but I've heard stories. We've had multiple examples of federations running for quite a long time, probably longer than you'd be comfortable with with with a server down and and things just keep

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working. Yeah. And on that on that front too, I think a lot of the stuff we've been doing over the last six months has been kinda targeted at, like, how can we make it as easy as possible for people to participate

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in running one of these things? So that's where a lot of the improvements have been.

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Yeah. I think

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yeah. I mean, a lot of the success and failure. We've talked about Fetterman many times, not only on this on the last rip we did, but on dispatch in general. Yeah.

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I I'm in I've been been increasingly convinced that this project

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success and failure relies on one making it reducing friction of actually

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spinning up one of these federations. But second of all, that second piece, which arguably is more difficult, which is making it accessible to run a relatively high uptime Guardian. Because if you can just like do the bare minimum, then that's actually maybe even a worse position than if you can't do it at all. So this e cash app, just to put the pin in it is, you know, a front end app that you guys are designing a wallet, you know, a a wallet app that people would be used to that that supports Fediments. That's completely open source. It's available on Android and Linux, and you can get it at ecash.love.

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By the way, on the backup thing, the Noster backup thing, just as Yeah. Tangent. Recently,

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Primal was a custodial strike wallet, which was obviously not ideal. But in Bitcoin land, like accepting Zaps,

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you know, like someone like signs up for a new Noster account and wants to like immediately receive 10 sets. Right. Your options are quite limited. Obviously we explored e cash and Fediment.

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We ended up deciding that right now the best trade off balance for our users is spark.

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So, have a Spark wallet.

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And the reason I bring this up is

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twofold. First of all, with the Spark wallet, we're giving people a seed, right? And now there's multiple Spark based wallets.

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So there's while the Satoshi, there's cake wallet,

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there's breeze, there's blitz, there's a couple others, I think. And you can just take the seed and move it over.

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And restore

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it on any of these other wallets, which is great. Any Bitcoin that's used to seeds, that's an awesome feature, I think. Now,

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for our users who sometimes

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are Bitcoin noobs,

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seeds can be a little bit daunting.

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So, we've been

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or let me put it this way. So then there's another Noster app. Don't know if you're familiar with called wisp made by this awesome dude UTXO, who I should actually probably have on the show

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in the next couple of weeks to talk about wisp. But he has a new Noster Android app, and he also implemented spark and you can take the seed and move it back and forth. But what he implemented was something that we were we've been thinking about, but don't know

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if the trade offs are worth it. And that's he is taking the seed.

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He's encrypting it with your NSEC, and then he's storing it on relays.

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So if you open up and it's a relatively simple spec, so presumably, like if primal did that as well, then if you sign in with your NSEC on wisp, your wallet is already there, and you don't have to enter seed words, right? It's just pulling it from relays. Now the negative is once you put something on relays, you have to assume it's there forever.

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And if your end site is compromised, you lose your money. But it's just kind of an interesting thought process on the trade offs of

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UX and security and

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model. It's

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a interesting idea, like, to reduce the number of things that you need

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to keep track of. Right? Because if you

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with an NSEC and a seed phrase, it's like, okay. Now I need to have both of those things. Right.

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And for yeah. We

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we didn't take that approach, but we the what we're encrypting is the invite code. So, like, even if that gets leaked, it's at most

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a a privacy leak as far as what federations you were involved with. But for us, it reduces the number of things that you need to keep track of. Now it's just a seed phrase. Right. Makes sense. I and then the other piece there is

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one of the main reasons we ended up going with Spark

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over

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Cashew or Fetamin was

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this problem that I've been discussing

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for years now,

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which is

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the UX around mint selection.

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I mean, in this case, Federation selection.

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How are you guys

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thinking about that? The issue, just to put the high level, the way I look at the issue

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is

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as a wallet developer, you don't wanna choose the Mint for them.

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Obviously, it's an important choice. So how do users

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in an educated way make that decision?

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Yeah. That's a fantastic question.

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So I think still still open, like, probably both on the federation side and and Cashew. Right? We Yeah. In an eCash app right now,

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we do pull there's a nip 87,

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which

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allows you to, like, list off, essentially, like, make your federation public or your mid public where you can advertise

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via noster that you're you're there. And then there's part

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of it that you can, like, submit recommendations

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and stuff. So right now at eCatch app, we just list off

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those entries and you can

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can join if you'd like, but we don't

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we don't do anything more than that currently. Something I wanna add to. I think like

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there's there seems to be something as far as like the web of trust plus like Mint selection that could be done there. It's like figuring out, you know, if your friends use it, but it would need to be done sort of in a privacy conscious way. You don't obviously wanna be

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doxing if you're using a mint or not, unless that's voluntary.

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So Yeah. No. I think yeah.

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I don't have a great solution yet, but it's something we'd like to add add as well. Bitcoin mints.com

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is is an interesting step in that direction

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in terms of like Noster Nabil Web of Trust for men's selection, and it covers both cash and fediment.

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Obviously, I don't think it's a real concern if it's like a local community,

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You know, like if your

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your tribal chieftain is running the federation, then you're just gonna use his.

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There's a But There's a there's also a observer.fedman.org.

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What is it observer?

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Observer.

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Observer. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Federated Observer. There's a handful of federations on there, and that's also, I believe, pulling public NOSTER data. And then for that, it has a little bit more Federated specific data. So it it'll show some,

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like, transactions and The on chain data. Right? Because Cashew

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one of the big differences between Cashew

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and

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Fediment is Fediment is on chain native,

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and Cashew is

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I don't even wanna say lightning native, but it's lightning only. Lightning powered. Yeah.

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Okay. Awesome. So on that topic of federations and making it easier to use federations,

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my understanding

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is

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that you guys have released an Android app that I can run a Guardian on my phone.

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Yeah.

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Well, before we get there Sounds crazy to say it out loud. Sorry. Continue. It's a little crazy.

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I I'll acknowledge that.

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So the we I think we probably mentioned it last time, but there right now, there's both Umbral and Start Nine packages for Okay. Running a Guardian.

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So I'd say that would definitely be the

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preferred way to do it given that it's, you know, a dedicated somewhat like server box.

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Yeah. So let's talk about that because a lot of us have start nines already.

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Yeah.

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What does that look like? Obviously, I'm installing it for I assume it's a community registry.

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Yep. It's in the community registry. It all works the same, honestly, underneath. Essentially,

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you install it and it's

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I guess, a Docker image and it will deploy vitamin d, which comes with

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a little UI.

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And really the only the main pain point in setting a federation up is just the beginning part. Once it's kind of set up and you have the backup configured correctly,

209
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you don't need to do anything. You just sort of leave it there and let it have power.

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But to set one up, that's like the you think of it like the setup ceremony,

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That's where you need to get together with your

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other guardians and exchange these

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like setup codes.

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You're like basically copying and pasting in signal. Right?

215
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Yeah. That's that's, I'd say, recommended way as well. We did add QR codes, which, you know, if you're running it on star nine is not maybe super helpful, but as But if you're in person, it could be

216
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Yeah. I mean, you have to be in person. Right? Yeah.

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If to use that, I with we can get into the phone, but with the phone, it's really easy to set up via QR codes, and I've I've done that through webcams and stuff before,

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which is kinda numerous. But Well, let's not we started with the Star nine and Umbral. Yeah. The backup process, everything is built into the app. It should be relatively straightforward. Or Yeah. On on Star nine, there's automated backup, so it will actually

219
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on Fedament is a consensus system. Right? So it

220
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we have similar to what our it's like a we have a session where that's kinda like a a a unit of consensus.

221
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And on every session, we will there's actually a database checkpoint that gets written out to the Start9 backup.

222
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So you're able to easily recover that way.

223
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But the the critical piece of information to backup is available in the dashboard. So Phytoment doesn't use, like, a it's not a standard, like, the 39 wallet, but what you can do is you

224
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download this, like, tar file essentially.

225
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And

226
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that's encrypted with your password, so it's you can store it, say, on a cloud safely.

227
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But that's really what you need to to recover. If you ever need to recover, you need that that TAR file, which has your your secret, essentially. Yeah. So that's pretty straightforward.

228
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That's awesome.

229
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What about

230
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does it run alright through Tor, or how are you handling that? Yeah. Right now,

231
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we're looking at adding that. There's ongoing work for that. There's there's no Tor support between Guardians right now. Do I remember you saying something about Iroh? Was that you?

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Yeah. So Iroh is kinda how all this works. Like, that's the only reason why we're able to do this start nine in in Umbral packages.

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IRO is kind of like the basis for how

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it's the basis for how the guardians communicate

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and also how the clients talk to both the guardians and at this point,

236
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the gateway as well. And so, yeah, IRO is pretty cool. I think we we chatted about it more in-depth last time, but basically it does like hole punching

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and uses like these quick streams to So it's establish communicating between the guardians is using Iroh?

238
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Yeah. Yeah. Directly.

239
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But then what about the user to the

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federation?

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Because it didn't

242
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didn't both have a DNS requirement previously?

243
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Yeah. And that's all like, the DNS requirement's totally gone now. The clients all know how to talk to the guardians via IRO, and then the guardians all know how to talk to each other also via IRO.

244
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Yeah. And IRO is interesting because it it's kind of their tagline is like p to p networking made made simple. So

245
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they yeah. You directly talk to them. That's kind of the whole point of the of the whole bunch of That's awesome. Both the clients to establish

246
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direct direct connections.

247
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What about,

248
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like, the privates from the privacy perspective of someone running this on their start nine? Is my ISP is gonna know I'm running Guardian?

249
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Yeah. Again, this is an area of improvement. So we've run Guardians on Mutinet over

250
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molt Moldad before. So you can definitely Okay. Run it behind a a VPN. As I mentioned, we don't we don't currently have, like, integrated Tor support, but we're we're working on that. Yeah. By so by default, if you don't take any protections,

251
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like, your IP could be exposed.

252
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Iroh has, like it it has two modes. It has, like, direct connection mode and it has, like, this relayed mode. And the relays are

253
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are there for helping like establish connections.

254
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So when it's in relayed mode, it doesn't it doesn't leak your your IP, but when it when you do direct connections, it will. So But it would still leak into your ISP now. Right? Your ISP would still know.

255
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That you're running a Guardian?

256
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Yeah. It would see essentially,

257
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I don't

258
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the I'm try I'm trying to figure out, like, does Palantir just have, like, a list of people running Guardians at home? I mean, if people were running Guardians at home, let's say at scale.

259
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There might maybe there's a different way of figuring the all the traffic's, like, encrypted via these quick

260
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like, the quick protocol. So I think it'd be pretty hard to figure out that you're running

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specifically a Guardian,

262
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like a Futament Guardian. But

263
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as far as there there are still, like, ways to to leak IPs right now. And definitely,

264
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you know, if you're running a a Guardian, I'd probably recommend running running behind a VPN. And you're definitely exposed to your end users. Right? Like, the people that are connecting to you and using the federation.

265
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Yeah. As long as you're not using a if you're not using a VPN. So if you run Then they know your IP address. Yeah. If you run behind Mulvad, you don't really get that way. And that and that works pretty pretty well. We've

266
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tested that for a while. And Awesome. Okay. So, I mean, continuing on that track of Start Nine Umbral. So what's the deal so then you released a separate Lightning Gateway app

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for

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both as well? Or Yeah. So that's that's worth

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talking about.

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Because I think the last time we chatted,

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that wasn't available yet.

272
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Right. So as as you mentioned, like, Fetamin is

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on chain

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native. It's like, the the Bitcoin is held in a multisig,

275
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and the Lightning integration kinda comes from

276
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these these gateways. So the gateway could be a different entity. It doesn't have to be the same person that's, running a Guardian, but the gateway is what facilitates the Lightning payments.

277
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So it it integrates with Fediment, like, sort of via these ink. They're they're Fediment contracts, but they they look very similar to HCLCs.

278
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Okay.

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Essentially, like, you're just sending an outgoing payment. What the client does is it

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creates what what looks like a HTLC, but it's enforced by the federation.

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So it's like an e cash HTLC,

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essentially. Right. And then

283
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then the client says, hey, gateway, go

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go pay this invoice for me.

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It does

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that, gets the pre image back, and then the gateway can go reclaim the

287
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e cash that's held in that HCL, that federal agency. Yeah. You're not trusting

288
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the gateway with custody of funds.

289
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Correct. You're trusting the gateway with uptime. Like, I'm a user and I wanna make a lightning payment. If the gateway doesn't have sufficient liquidity, then my payment will fail. Yeah. If the gateway is offline, my payment will fail. But then the gateway,

290
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if it's not a Guardian member, is trusting the Guardian

291
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with custody of funds. Right? Yeah. Exactly. The the Gateway is like you can think of it just like a special wallet. It's just a client. And the only way that it's special is that it it can do it can, like, facilitate these these lightning payments. Yeah. It it's a it's a different type of model than, like, the

292
00:25:22.695 --> 00:25:31.335
Well, Cashew is just like, there's one guy who's running the Mint, and it has an it has a, you know, a a built in lightning node. Right. That's it. Right.

293
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Yeah. And on Futament, well, one one advantage of the the gateway is that there's

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gateways can serve multiple federations.

295
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If, again, given the trust model as long as you you trust them. Right. But so there's a bit of, like, capital

296
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efficiency there. You can sort of reuse your out you know, out outgoing and incoming lighting channels. Yeah. The dream the dream is at scale that you'd have,

297
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you know, either straight up professional or quasi professional gateway operators. Right? That are like seeing opportunities

298
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in terms of demand for gateway services with growing federations.

299
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Yeah. And then

300
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you can just

301
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not only the users, but also the guardians are basically outsourcing this expertise

302
00:26:15.915 --> 00:26:20.075
in this capital management, right? It's not running a high like,

303
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people love Phoenix wallet.

304
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Like,

305
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those guys deserve so much credit for running the async node. Yeah, I don't think everyone.

306
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No one appreciates it unless their payment fails. But as long as their payment's working, no one appreciates it. And it's it's way more difficult of a problem and way more expensive in terms of capital lockup than people realize.

307
00:26:39.770 --> 00:26:44.205
Yeah. Exactly. That's kinda core to the architecture

308
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here is that we wanna make

309
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running the federations,

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like, stupid easy, essentially just set up and then you leave it versus the gateway operators.

311
00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:59.190
Yeah. Probably do need to be they need to be as sophisticated as a Lightning operator. They need to be able to run

312
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a high quality uptime

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with good liquidity

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Lightning node, which yeah, is not not maybe super easy, but getting easier with, you know, agents and stuff like that. It is cool that on the Fetamin side, because it's on chain native, you do have, like, if the gateway is just being completely unreliable,

315
00:27:18.835 --> 00:27:30.619
you do have basically, like, a break class method of getting out on chain, which Cashew does not have. Like, if you if your Cashew meant does not have liquidity in their Lightning node, then you're just stuck until they have liquidity.

316
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Yeah.

317
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And I think it's it's pretty common for at least the federations that I've seen to have multiple gateways.

318
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Okay. Which is also same same deal. It's availability

319
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improvement because say one is having

320
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liquidity issues, you can switch to the the other one. And so that was one thing we added in an e cash out, if, you know, people are curious. I think

321
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I don't think Fetty shows this, but an eCash app, you can change which gateway you use. You manually choose?

322
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You can. It it'll select one for you, but then if you wanna switch it, you you can. If it selects one for you and that one goes offline, does it automatically gracefully switch the other yet?

323
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Yeah.

324
00:28:14.125 --> 00:28:17.165
It it should. I believe so. Have to check, but it should.

325
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I think a lot of these UX things were, like, it requires,

326
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you know, personal responsibility

327
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and understanding by the user, like, which gateway I wanna choose or which mint and stuff.

328
00:28:27.570 --> 00:28:37.565
I think there's something there about very low powered local AI models making a lot of these decisions for people. I think it like, if you just you're like, basically, like, asking your agent, like, okay.

329
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We pick the right mid, pick the right gateway kinda thing. I don't pretend it's there yet, but it's something I think about a decent amount.

330
00:28:45.405 --> 00:28:51.885
Yeah. I think that that'd be useful for both, like, UI and and agents. Right? Just to have

331
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some of that data to

332
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show people.

333
00:28:55.370 --> 00:29:04.649
Yeah. That's probably we'll probably try to work on that over the next couple months. So I have one more question for you on the gateway side. So what does the pairing process look like? Install

334
00:29:05.395 --> 00:29:11.235
I install the gateway app on my the Lightning gateway app on my start nine. How do I

335
00:29:11.555 --> 00:29:16.514
hook it into a federation? Does that I assume that requires permission by the guardians.

336
00:29:16.515 --> 00:29:19.099
How do what does that look like? Yeah. So

337
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:29.499
first thing to do is set up your your Lightning node. You install the gateway on on Star nine. You can use either your L and D node or the built in LDK

338
00:29:29.500 --> 00:29:38.165
that we have. So if you have L and D, you can reuse use that. Otherwise, you can start a new new lighting node. After that, yeah, you have to join a federation.

339
00:29:38.165 --> 00:29:42.885
So similar to if you had, like, an e cash app, you have to have an invite code. So you have to

340
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join a federation

341
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and then get some eCash. So you have to do a

342
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do a PEG in.

343
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And specifically,

344
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because it's the gateway, you're the one providing the Lightning payments. It has to be in an on chain an on chain payment.

345
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Then after that, you're you're funded.

346
00:30:00.845 --> 00:30:05.884
And, yeah, then you give in the UI, there will be like a

347
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it's like called gateway endpoints,

348
00:30:08.419 --> 00:30:21.620
a little card, and that will show you your iRow endpoint. It'll look like iRow colon slash slash then a long pubkey. You give that to the guardians and they they they have like a little form in their UI.

349
00:30:22.205 --> 00:30:33.725
They register it there. And at that point, you're, like, advertising that you're providing. So you're giving that to them out of band. You're basically, like, asking them, can I be your gateway, and let's connect it out of band?

350
00:30:35.260 --> 00:30:39.900
Okay. That makes sense. And I assume a lot at least right now, a lot of times, the

351
00:30:40.300 --> 00:30:42.620
gateway is also a guardian.

352
00:30:43.820 --> 00:30:45.100
That's my understanding.

353
00:30:45.340 --> 00:30:47.580
I so I I run a gateway

354
00:30:47.820 --> 00:30:49.660
for a for a handful of federations.

355
00:30:50.275 --> 00:30:51.315
So I've

356
00:30:51.555 --> 00:30:56.034
I've done that for a number of federations that have, you know, reached out to me. But,

357
00:30:57.155 --> 00:31:04.435
yeah, it's just, you know, it's the same same trust model. And the like you said earlier, the the reason why it's somewhat permissioned

358
00:31:04.435 --> 00:31:05.235
is that it's

359
00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:15.210
it's a it's an availability thing. Yeah. You wanna provide you wanna add gateways that will have a high quality of service and not Yeah. I mean, you could just I it's like the easiest DDoS

360
00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:22.774
vector ever if you just leave it open, and I'm just not running any liquidity and price pretending I'm a gateway when you mentioned

361
00:31:22.934 --> 00:31:27.734
one gateway up, that gives me another question. If a gateway operators operating

362
00:31:29.095 --> 00:31:30.294
two federations

363
00:31:30.615 --> 00:31:32.294
gateways on two federations,

364
00:31:32.375 --> 00:31:33.975
and there's a payment between the two.

365
00:31:35.030 --> 00:31:38.710
Does is it just not even a Lightning payment? Is it just like internal ledger?

366
00:31:39.030 --> 00:31:42.789
Correct. Yeah. It does. That's awesome. That's a huge capital efficiency.

367
00:31:42.950 --> 00:31:44.549
Yeah. Exactly. And

368
00:31:45.270 --> 00:31:55.825
not to, like, not to get into any details, but we have we actually have two lightning protocols as well. We have what's called l m v one and l m v two. And l m v two is sort of our

369
00:31:56.305 --> 00:31:57.105
upgrade,

370
00:31:57.185 --> 00:32:05.080
which the new federations will will support. But we also do swaps between those two. So, like, if you have an old client that

371
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:11.159
doesn't speak the new protocol yet, the and the the gateway does, the gateway will do the swap for you and

372
00:32:11.560 --> 00:32:18.955
pay a new client from an old client. So, yeah, the gateway provides kind of a nice little upgrade path there as as well.

373
00:32:19.355 --> 00:32:20.394
That's awesome.

374
00:32:24.154 --> 00:32:26.794
Running a Guardian on an Android device.

375
00:32:28.235 --> 00:32:30.875
Yeah. How does that look? Why why would I do that?

376
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:41.400
So it works exactly the same way. The the project started from we were just trying to show, like, how how could we show, like,

377
00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:46.200
cool ways about Iroh and running a Guardian. And

378
00:32:46.515 --> 00:32:51.315
the insight is like, because it does hole punching, you can kind of run it run it anywhere.

379
00:32:51.715 --> 00:32:53.395
And and given that the

380
00:32:53.635 --> 00:33:00.355
the resource requirements for running a a Guardian are are pretty low. Like, you don't need a lot of memory or disk or anything.

381
00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:06.059
You need access to blockchain data. It's like Bitcoin D or Explora.

382
00:33:07.580 --> 00:33:09.980
And, yeah, you need to run this this server. So

383
00:33:10.780 --> 00:33:12.539
we essentially just wrapped,

384
00:33:12.780 --> 00:33:16.380
like, Fetamin D inside a Flutter app that

385
00:33:17.435 --> 00:33:20.554
has like a bridge to Rust code.

386
00:33:21.515 --> 00:33:22.635
It runs

387
00:33:22.635 --> 00:33:27.355
in a like Android foreground, like a foreground task. So it has to

388
00:33:28.490 --> 00:33:31.530
there's like a special permission that's like, hey, this thing

389
00:33:32.090 --> 00:33:37.370
This thing always running. This thing always has to run, and it will run-in the background and it

390
00:33:38.410 --> 00:33:50.164
like, warning, it it is like pretty It'll run-in the background as a foreground. Yeah. Yeah. Essentially, when you when you move the app down or exit out, it doesn't go away. It's still still running.

391
00:33:50.725 --> 00:33:52.804
Yeah, it's it's relatively

392
00:33:52.885 --> 00:33:59.049
data and power hungry because it has to participate in this consensus thing. Right? So it's sending

393
00:33:59.290 --> 00:34:02.330
even if you're not actively doing transactions,

394
00:34:02.330 --> 00:34:08.650
it will be sending update data to the other guardians to, like, let it know it's still live and participating kind of thing. Yeah.

395
00:34:09.575 --> 00:34:23.975
So why would you wanna do stay in sync with each other. Right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's that's why it's they're doing that. So, yeah. Why would you want to run one of these? Well, essentially, it just makes it really, really easy for running a Guardian. Like, you can

396
00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:26.180
right now you can go to Zap Store,

397
00:34:26.980 --> 00:34:32.420
download the app and in like three taps, can have a federation with just one

398
00:34:32.660 --> 00:34:33.220
And

399
00:34:33.619 --> 00:34:41.535
then if you if you wanna do a setup with multiple, you can just use the scanning QR code thing to exchange the

400
00:34:42.575 --> 00:34:46.655
setup codes and then hit go and it and it will set it up for you.

401
00:34:46.975 --> 00:34:50.415
So wait. I mean, that's awesome. So so

402
00:34:50.735 --> 00:34:54.255
you could a small community or whatever could have

403
00:34:55.460 --> 00:34:58.260
their their federation could be for older,

404
00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:02.740
cheaper Android phones constantly plugged into power connections to Wi Fi. Yeah.

405
00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:04.819
But just a QR scan

406
00:35:04.819 --> 00:35:06.660
set up. Obviously,

407
00:35:06.740 --> 00:35:08.099
do they still need a lightning gateway?

408
00:35:08.694 --> 00:35:21.335
They still need a gateway. So I what you just said, I'm I'm currently doing right now. I have, like, four pixels that I'm That's awesome. Running a Signet Federation on. So if anyone's curious, I can I can send that Is there

409
00:35:22.135 --> 00:35:22.214
Any,

410
00:35:24.290 --> 00:35:25.730
like, performance

411
00:35:25.730 --> 00:35:26.770
negatives

412
00:35:26.770 --> 00:35:31.810
versus in in best case scenario? Is it, like, three people are running them on

413
00:35:32.450 --> 00:35:33.250
VPSs

414
00:35:33.250 --> 00:35:36.770
or start nines and, like, one person's running on an Android phone? Is there

415
00:35:38.565 --> 00:35:39.765
I don't have any,

416
00:35:40.165 --> 00:35:49.765
like, hard numbers on that. It's hard to test that. I don't know how you would Yeah. I'd say, I mean, from a from a gut perspective, I'd say, yeah, it's probably better to run more on servers.

417
00:35:51.150 --> 00:35:51.869
The

418
00:35:52.990 --> 00:35:57.470
Moby Mint Federation that I'm running, the Pixel, it's a Mutiny Net I

419
00:35:58.030 --> 00:36:00.829
haven't I use that for just like development

420
00:36:00.829 --> 00:36:14.845
testing and I haven't noticed really any like perf degradation. It's pretty fast and it's yeah. As long as my my phones are plugged in. I there's been a few times where I, you know, forget to plug the phone in and it dies and I

421
00:36:15.579 --> 00:36:24.700
we have one one less Guardian. But as long as it's just one, then you just plug it in and turn it back on. Right? Yeah. Exactly. And it also makes like moving your Guardian around

422
00:36:24.940 --> 00:36:28.859
really easy. Like if you want if you wanna start a federation on a phone,

423
00:36:29.525 --> 00:36:32.325
what you can do, as long as you have multiple

424
00:36:32.485 --> 00:36:33.445
guardians,

425
00:36:33.445 --> 00:36:35.925
you can take your backup tar file

426
00:36:36.405 --> 00:36:37.045
and

427
00:36:37.285 --> 00:36:44.240
move it to a different like you move it to a server and then extract that and and run it from there and it it will just work too.

428
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:56.160
So you can switch? So you can switch. Yeah. And that the app the the phone app actually has, like, native support for that. It's like when you set it up, it asks you, like, do you wanna restore from a from a backup file?

429
00:36:57.285 --> 00:36:59.125
If you click that, it will just

430
00:37:00.805 --> 00:37:04.885
un unpack it and then start start going. So That's awesome.

431
00:37:05.204 --> 00:37:06.325
Yeah. It's

432
00:37:08.325 --> 00:37:12.724
again, just the idea is to lower the bar as low as possible as far as

433
00:37:14.430 --> 00:37:15.710
running one of these things.

434
00:37:16.190 --> 00:37:18.990
So I think, you know, getting an old phone,

435
00:37:19.550 --> 00:37:23.230
downloading the app, and just, like, keeping it plugged in is pretty

436
00:37:24.270 --> 00:37:33.714
pretty low bar. It's the that's, you know, keep it in a closet somewhere as long as it is still running it, it will work. So you said, like, obviously, it's not running a Bitcoin node.

437
00:37:33.954 --> 00:37:38.994
Right. So I guess by default, you said it's using East Flora. Is that just

438
00:37:39.474 --> 00:37:46.290
are you just is that like Blockstream API, basically? It's it's configurable. So in in this setup,

439
00:37:47.010 --> 00:37:53.890
if you set up a while you're sitting at the Guardian, it will ask you, do you wanna use a Explora? If you wanna use Bitcoin D?

440
00:37:54.210 --> 00:38:00.855
So Bitcoin D is is supported. And if you so say you're running like a Bitcoin D node on

441
00:38:01.655 --> 00:38:03.895
start nine, like, on your local network.

442
00:38:04.135 --> 00:38:07.415
Yeah. As long as that it has the right port open,

443
00:38:08.135 --> 00:38:15.680
you can point it at at that thing and and that should work as well. But we have some sane defaults in there. So if you wanna set up

444
00:38:16.720 --> 00:38:21.760
via Explora, there there's a link already in the app that will just let you sort of

445
00:38:22.515 --> 00:38:29.235
tap through it, and it'll use a score by by default to do that. But what is that like Blockstreet? Espoores is an open source

446
00:38:29.795 --> 00:38:37.395
project. Right? Mempool. Yeah. Mempool. Space. Mempool. Space. Got it. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I think that's a decent trade off balance.

447
00:38:41.200 --> 00:38:43.280
Yeah. That's that's pretty cool.

448
00:38:43.839 --> 00:38:45.359
What about mobile

449
00:38:45.359 --> 00:38:46.640
versus WiFi?

450
00:38:46.720 --> 00:38:48.880
Have you tested it on mobile or?

451
00:38:50.205 --> 00:38:55.965
I guess it doesn't matter. It's just a data cap thing. Right? And Yeah. How good your connection is. Yep.

452
00:38:56.445 --> 00:39:00.285
I have. I have tested it on both. It it works.

453
00:39:00.525 --> 00:39:06.630
I like yeah. It's really all I can say. I don't know. Like, I haven't measured anything, but I did.

454
00:39:07.030 --> 00:39:08.070
I had it on

455
00:39:09.910 --> 00:39:12.950
yeah. I I, like, took one of the phones and I had it on

456
00:39:13.910 --> 00:39:16.150
data, and I took it out, like,

457
00:39:16.549 --> 00:39:26.845
you know, my house, outside of Wi Fi, and it was it got hot. It got hot in my pocket. So it was definitely, you know, kind of burning through a lot of a lot of data. But, yeah, it it works.

458
00:39:30.765 --> 00:39:31.085
Cool.

459
00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:34.380
I mean, so I have a couple more questions.

460
00:39:34.460 --> 00:39:35.420
Yeah. The

461
00:39:39.020 --> 00:39:42.060
hype of the day is agentic payments.

462
00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:42.620
Yeah.

463
00:39:44.645 --> 00:39:51.445
And I like to remind freaks that it's not just agents paying agents, but it's humans paying agents and agents paying humans and

464
00:39:51.685 --> 00:39:53.845
agents paying agents who are paying humans.

465
00:39:55.285 --> 00:39:57.365
Where do you think Fediment falls in

466
00:39:57.950 --> 00:39:59.150
that conversation?

467
00:39:59.869 --> 00:40:00.589
Yeah.

468
00:40:00.990 --> 00:40:05.470
We've been playing around with this a little bit. I think there's still more

469
00:40:06.349 --> 00:40:12.705
exploration to be done. I think I think, like, e cash in general is actually pretty well positioned.

470
00:40:13.345 --> 00:40:17.825
My thoughts are, like, it's it's great to give your your agent, like, a Lightning node,

471
00:40:19.345 --> 00:40:24.225
and it it can definitely probably handle, like, dealing with the liquidity. Definitely the smarter models.

472
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:28.560
Yeah. Yeah. But if you don't have to, like, what you know, why

473
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:33.840
why do that? And I think, you know, both with, you know, vitamin and cashew, it's kinda

474
00:40:34.160 --> 00:40:36.160
the lightning part is already outsourced.

475
00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:41.585
So giving your giving your agent it it might just be a little easier. That's that's all. One

476
00:40:41.905 --> 00:40:48.385
one other thought I had on that was which is not specific to Fetervant, but, like, in in general with eCatchments

477
00:40:48.385 --> 00:40:49.105
is

478
00:40:49.690 --> 00:40:57.770
I don't know about you, but like I the I've run into a decent amount of problems with like Open Claw, like forgetting about stuff. And I

479
00:40:58.730 --> 00:41:00.570
I felt when I was

480
00:41:00.810 --> 00:41:08.345
like looking into doing this, I felt a little uncomfortable. Like, I'm just gonna give you a seed phrase and like let you go let you go crazy.

481
00:41:09.224 --> 00:41:12.265
So like, I think I think e cash in general, like you can,

482
00:41:13.545 --> 00:41:20.560
especially maybe with the phone app, it's like pretty easy to set up your own you can set up your own Mint and then just give your

483
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.080
give your agent like an e cash wallet.

484
00:41:25.200 --> 00:41:27.600
Actually, might just do that by giving him SATs?

485
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:29.360
Like, you just don't give him all the SATs.

486
00:41:30.195 --> 00:41:36.995
Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. I think what I was getting at is, like, you could if you have the Mint already set up that you give him, like, an e cash wallet,

487
00:41:37.155 --> 00:41:48.340
if they, like, screw up and, like, overwrite the wallet or it's gone or whatever, you can always just rug your own Mint and take it back. So it's kinda Oh, you kinda have an undo button. Yeah. Because

488
00:41:49.140 --> 00:41:55.780
I kinda did this without the undo button when I was first experimenting with OpenClub because I just had to make an end pub dot cash

489
00:41:56.275 --> 00:41:58.195
cashew wallet, which

490
00:41:59.075 --> 00:42:01.635
I think uses the mini bit Smith by default.

491
00:42:01.955 --> 00:42:06.275
But then he had a lightning address. And then like, sent him 100,000 sats, like, if you screwed it up,

492
00:42:06.915 --> 00:42:13.710
then I lost 100,000 sats. Like, was is the titanic approach. But I see what you're saying here. This is more like,

493
00:42:14.030 --> 00:42:22.349
you have a little bit of an undue button, at least if it stay if the payments are staying within the mints within the mint. Right. Yeah. Obviously, if the agent,

494
00:42:22.349 --> 00:42:24.030
pays a lighting invoice, you know, that

495
00:42:24.744 --> 00:42:30.825
that money is gone. No recourse. But if he if he, like, for some reasons, like, loses the database or something,

496
00:42:32.025 --> 00:42:34.105
yeah, you could you could get it back. So

497
00:42:34.505 --> 00:42:38.425
I mean, one thought I have is, I mean, it's yet to be seen, and,

498
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:42.960
you know, a lot of our speculations will just look retarded in the future.

499
00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:44.240
But

500
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:50.480
that's the fun part. That's why I like the bleeding edge shit. You know, the dream of Fetamin to me was always sold as like,

501
00:42:51.375 --> 00:42:53.135
empowering local communities.

502
00:42:53.295 --> 00:42:53.935
Yeah.

503
00:42:54.655 --> 00:42:57.535
I still think I actually disagree with a lot of people

504
00:42:58.255 --> 00:43:00.655
in the Fetamin space and that I also think

505
00:43:01.535 --> 00:43:15.960
it can be incredibly useful as a very large global mints, which I think we might see at scale. But if we just drill down really quick into the local community part and empowering local communities and community banking, obviously I think

506
00:43:16.520 --> 00:43:18.760
there's a lot of optimism and hope

507
00:43:19.555 --> 00:43:22.515
for good reason in local AI models.

508
00:43:23.315 --> 00:43:28.515
I think some of it is misguided and and it's very like you send out a tweet and you're like, everyone's

509
00:43:28.515 --> 00:43:34.595
gonna be able to just run awesome intelligence on their phone for free and not have to pay Anthropic or share their information

510
00:43:35.240 --> 00:43:40.040
is there's there's a piece of truth in there, and then there's a lot of bullshit.

511
00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:43.160
And so there's something to be said with

512
00:43:43.720 --> 00:43:47.000
I've heard Obi talk about this on the Fetty side,

513
00:43:47.735 --> 00:43:49.255
that what

514
00:43:49.815 --> 00:43:51.255
they're trying to build

515
00:43:51.575 --> 00:43:53.255
is more than just

516
00:43:53.415 --> 00:43:55.815
the money piece for empowering And

517
00:43:56.535 --> 00:43:59.175
I can imagine a situation where the guardians

518
00:43:59.175 --> 00:44:04.330
are running this vitamin for their local community, And then maybe they're running some beefed up hardware

519
00:44:04.570 --> 00:44:06.890
with an open source model running on it,

520
00:44:07.370 --> 00:44:08.890
that they're able to then

521
00:44:09.290 --> 00:44:10.090
provide

522
00:44:10.090 --> 00:44:11.130
to their,

523
00:44:11.530 --> 00:44:13.690
to their Fedement community.

524
00:44:14.214 --> 00:44:21.975
So it's like, I'm a, I'm a small village or whatever, we have our community bank, but then they're also administrating the local models for you.

525
00:44:22.855 --> 00:44:26.135
And then I mean, E cash for tolls is like super simple.

526
00:44:26.710 --> 00:44:32.630
And you can just do eCache internally for, like, API calls or whatever till you hit the model. Kinda interesting.

527
00:44:33.510 --> 00:44:37.750
Yeah. That that's a really interesting direction. I think

528
00:44:39.285 --> 00:44:42.005
I think, like, Jesse Posner's, like, Vora,

529
00:44:42.085 --> 00:44:45.765
other things, stuff like that with, like, locally hosted

530
00:44:45.925 --> 00:44:49.765
notes and whatnot. But I don't think he has the community piece. Like, his is, like,

531
00:44:52.230 --> 00:44:53.670
a start nine

532
00:44:54.630 --> 00:44:56.070
with more security.

533
00:44:56.550 --> 00:44:59.750
Right? Like, I think it's still like more family focused.

534
00:44:59.990 --> 00:45:01.990
Sure. It's like you're doing it for your family.

535
00:45:04.565 --> 00:45:06.244
Yeah, mean, it's tangential.

536
00:45:06.244 --> 00:45:16.165
It's easy for him to connect that if he wants to open it up for people. Yeah. I always see, like, Fetamin as kind of the it's like scaling up Uncle Jim to the community level.

537
00:45:16.884 --> 00:45:19.740
It's like mayor Jim. Yeah. Mayor Jim.

538
00:45:21.100 --> 00:45:24.380
I don't think we're probably not quite there yet with

539
00:45:25.180 --> 00:45:30.700
with LLMs. Right? As far as, like Oh, definitely not. The the the ability, like, share it within your community. But,

540
00:45:32.015 --> 00:45:36.335
yeah, it's something I'd I'd love to see. I know. So we've we've definitely gotten some

541
00:45:38.015 --> 00:45:43.375
I was gonna mention, like, there's a there's I won't mention my name, but there's a community in South Africa that's been,

542
00:45:43.775 --> 00:45:49.830
like, uptaking Pheidomint and using it more for their daily expenses and as a daily driver And, kind of

543
00:45:50.790 --> 00:45:51.830
yeah, they've gotten

544
00:45:52.390 --> 00:45:56.310
a lot of people using it, and it's it's been cool to see the the uptake there.

545
00:45:57.155 --> 00:45:58.275
So it's definitely

546
00:45:58.835 --> 00:46:04.675
hopefully happening, you know, scaling up slowly, but gotta need that time to build the tools too. So

547
00:46:06.675 --> 00:46:08.195
Yeah. I find it fascinating.

548
00:46:08.195 --> 00:46:13.920
Gradually, then suddenly freaks. Okay. So before before we wrap, what's next? What are you excited about?

549
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:16.560
Good question. So we have

550
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:23.600
a bunch of stuff coming soon. I wanna play around with more agent agentic stuff.

551
00:46:24.234 --> 00:46:28.315
Personally interested in, like, the on the gateway side for managing

552
00:46:28.315 --> 00:46:30.875
a Lightning node. You know, we talked a lot about it

553
00:46:31.755 --> 00:46:35.355
requires a bit of a more sophisticated operator, and

554
00:46:36.155 --> 00:46:39.400
I think, yeah, agents should probably be able to do that

555
00:46:39.640 --> 00:46:42.680
pretty well. So we've been making a bunch of changes to

556
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:47.000
make the gateway a bit more driven by by agents.

557
00:46:48.935 --> 00:46:50.295
We also have

558
00:46:51.015 --> 00:46:53.495
some new some new modules coming

559
00:46:53.655 --> 00:46:56.855
for Fetamin. So modules are kinda like our

560
00:46:57.095 --> 00:46:59.415
you get they get another, like, consensus upgrades.

561
00:47:00.135 --> 00:47:00.775
They're

562
00:47:01.255 --> 00:47:03.175
new implementations of how

563
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:16.360
how Fedement works. So there's a lot of nice improvements in in that, but we'll try to do it kind of in a in a backwards compatible way so that most of the complexity is handled by the the clients, like the wallet developers versus,

564
00:47:16.600 --> 00:47:17.640
you know, needing to

565
00:47:19.045 --> 00:47:20.565
totally redeploy everything.

566
00:47:23.765 --> 00:47:37.070
Yeah. That's that's the main stuff. We're gonna try to start implementing some some Bolt 12 stuff as well coming. Like, FetaMint there has some unique challenges, but we'd like to get some some Bolt 12 support coming soon as well. What are the unique challenges?

567
00:47:39.150 --> 00:47:40.510
On the send side,

568
00:47:40.670 --> 00:47:43.789
not not so much. It's more on the receive side.

569
00:47:45.805 --> 00:47:48.925
In the the the main challenge is that with

570
00:47:49.165 --> 00:47:52.685
the the trust model is a little bit shifted where

571
00:47:53.725 --> 00:47:56.685
both both 12, like, is is noninteractive

572
00:47:56.685 --> 00:48:01.030
by the end client. Right? So the Right. Whereas Bolt 11

573
00:48:01.190 --> 00:48:02.070
is not.

574
00:48:02.790 --> 00:48:07.030
So in Bolt 11, essentially, for the way Federer works is we can

575
00:48:07.670 --> 00:48:08.390
create

576
00:48:09.270 --> 00:48:10.950
essentially, the receiver

577
00:48:11.589 --> 00:48:14.069
encrypts a pre image with the federation.

578
00:48:14.875 --> 00:48:18.875
So the gateway can't steal the money in transit. Yeah. Exactly. So

579
00:48:19.195 --> 00:48:21.435
in order to do the same thing for

580
00:48:22.715 --> 00:48:24.315
Bolt 12, we

581
00:48:25.995 --> 00:48:29.275
it's it's very difficult. Bolt 12, like trust model wise euphedimid,

582
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:32.000
looks similar more similar to LNURL.

583
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:34.640
I think it might be possible to do it if we had,

584
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:42.365
like, PTLCs where, like, the federation could, like, commit to a point that is then revealed as, the Right.

585
00:48:42.685 --> 00:48:44.045
The payment. But

586
00:48:44.685 --> 00:48:46.045
PTLCs are

587
00:48:46.605 --> 00:48:50.685
not quite not quite there yet, so that might be a be a ways off. But

588
00:48:51.244 --> 00:48:53.724
And what the the trust model is that

589
00:48:54.530 --> 00:48:57.570
the gateway can steal money, right, in transit?

590
00:48:57.730 --> 00:48:59.410
It's similar to LNURL

591
00:48:59.410 --> 00:49:04.370
where, like, the gateway can sort of do these, like, amount attacks where it only gives the,

592
00:49:04.609 --> 00:49:10.130
like, a lower amount than what the gateway is getting paid to the end user. So and the use siphoned.

593
00:49:10.905 --> 00:49:22.025
And it's hard for the end user to to know, which, of course, you can do this in an LN URL right now as well. Like, because ever running your lightning address server basically can do it. Yeah. Yeah.

594
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:24.360
Like in primal situation,

595
00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:32.840
like I have Odell at primal dot net, and it's supposed to map to my spark wallet or whatever, but there's a trust element there. Right?

596
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:54.400
Yep. Yep. And we did. Yeah. Yeah. Go on. Well, we have we have Lightning address and eCash out, and it's the same the same model. So, yeah, we'd like to get both 12 at some point, but we might start with that trust model. And then, you know, once some of the other improvements are in place, we'll try to make it I mean, I think one of the the that's one of those things that's like,

597
00:49:55.839 --> 00:50:11.045
yeah. Well, it'd be great to mitigate it and improve the trust model, but also, like, in practice, it's not too big of a risk to the user. Yeah. I mean, particularly since in this situation, in your situation, gateways are permissioned and need permission from the Guardian to

598
00:50:13.605 --> 00:50:14.805
operate anyway. Right?

599
00:50:16.359 --> 00:50:21.000
And obviously, the user's trusting the guardians in the first place when they're using Fedement. So,

600
00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:29.480
I think it's one of those things that in practice probably isn't that big of a deal. Yeah. I I agree with that. That's why we're gonna do it. So

601
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:32.255
Yeah. I just take a little bit of time. Awesome.

602
00:50:32.895 --> 00:50:33.135
I

603
00:50:34.975 --> 00:50:36.735
how can the audience be helpful?

604
00:50:37.935 --> 00:50:51.650
Download download eCash App. Download the FetimaD mobile app. Give it a give it a whirl, and give me some feedback. Give anyone or any Fetima feedback would be great. I'm on Nostril at mister cool guy. And, yeah,

605
00:50:51.890 --> 00:50:53.810
I don't know. More feedback on

606
00:50:54.130 --> 00:50:56.530
usage and feedback would be would be great. So

607
00:50:57.275 --> 00:50:59.035
Yeah. I'll tag you in the

608
00:50:59.435 --> 00:51:03.755
tag in the nostril post, of course, and I'll put all relevant links in the show notes, freaks.

609
00:51:05.755 --> 00:51:06.315
And

610
00:51:06.635 --> 00:51:07.595
just FYI,

611
00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:13.020
and it's obviously not pressing, but I

612
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:16.940
think you need to do something to have it available on 04/00/2009,

613
00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:18.060
their big update.

614
00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:22.780
We're yeah. We're working we're working on that. We we have we had a draft.

615
00:51:23.335 --> 00:51:26.615
We had some initial work working towards that, and that will be,

616
00:51:27.175 --> 00:51:33.335
yeah, hopefully happening soon as well. While I have you, how significant is that change having to update an app to o four o?

617
00:51:33.815 --> 00:51:40.430
Wasn't point of view. I didn't I didn't do that. It didn't look too I looked through the code just briefly. It didn't look too bad,

618
00:51:41.230 --> 00:51:42.510
but I wasn't the one that

619
00:51:42.830 --> 00:51:47.070
Got it. Did did the work for that. So I don't know all the pain points there, but,

620
00:51:47.790 --> 00:52:00.955
yeah, hope it's smooth. The new four o four o looks looks great, so we definitely want those. Yeah. It's great. I've been running it. So I have Matt Hill on of start nine sometime soon to discuss, but they just they've been working on this update.

621
00:52:01.195 --> 00:52:15.710
It's like significant, significant update for, like, two years now, I think, And it's finally in beta. Right now, have to manually flash it onto your start nine with the USB drive. Can't. There's not like a big update button, but in the future, there'll be a big update button. They're just slow rolling it right now.

622
00:52:18.095 --> 00:52:24.895
I don't know what the timeline is of that. I asked Matt what the timeline of it. It was that he was brought it back to me to get a USB drive. I

623
00:52:25.615 --> 00:52:29.615
bought my thirtieth flash drive. I know for a fact

624
00:52:30.015 --> 00:52:30.815
that I have

625
00:52:32.030 --> 00:52:51.725
you know, 30 plus flash drives in this house and moving and stuff for the life of me, I can't find any single flash. I'm gonna find a bunch of them after I bought this one, but I wasn't able to find them. Yeah. They're always running away. Because you never throw out a flash drive. No. Right? It's one of those things that's like a seed words. You know? It's like, you just have a drawer full of empty wallets.

626
00:52:51.965 --> 00:52:59.680
Well, then you plug them in years later and see what operating system or whatever you were running, like, how long the time that I was on there.

627
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:16.645
Blast from the past. Anyway, Justin, this is great. I would love to do another update in, like, a year or so. Keep grinding. You guys have made really massive progress progress. You should be proud. I think there's a decent amount of haters out there that wrote off the Fetamin open source project as

628
00:53:16.964 --> 00:53:22.005
all hype and no substance. And I think you guys have have been proving them wrong. So it's been beautiful to see.

629
00:53:22.805 --> 00:53:24.565
Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that.

630
00:53:26.190 --> 00:53:31.070
Thank you, Freaks. I hope you enjoyed the show. As always, all relevant links are still dispatch.com.

631
00:53:31.070 --> 00:53:32.590
Share with your friends and family.

632
00:53:32.910 --> 00:53:35.150
Love you all. Stay humble stacks at peace.