CD194: SIDESWAP - LIQUID PREDICTION MARKETS

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 03/09/2026 17:49:12
Duration: 3531.755
Channels: 1

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Happy

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Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here

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for another Citadel Dispatch.

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The show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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The current block height is nine four zero zero one one.

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That brings us into fiat time. Fiat time, it's Monday, March 9.

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I just did the time zone change on me. At seventeen

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Sixteen hundred UTC.

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You guys will probably be listening to this in a couple of hours. I don't like sitting on it. I like to get to you ASAP.

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Current stats per dollar is 1,452.

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Current price in dollars is 68,863,

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and the current price in gold is 1 Bitcoin.

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You can get 1 Bitcoin for 12.84

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ounces.

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Bitcoin's down on gold on the day, the month, and the year, but we're slightly up on the week.

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Something to keep an eye on. As always, dispatch is

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supported by viewers like you. We have no ads or sponsors. So thank you to everyone who continues to send Bitcoin donations to support the show.

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The two largest

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supporters, I'm gonna say, from

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the last two weeks since

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or the last two episodes since they were back to back was we have Mav twenty one. He sent two separate 10,000 sat zaps,

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both saying great rep. Thank you, Mav twenty one. True ride or die.

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And we have Captain Cook with 7,654

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sats.

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He had no comment, but thank you for your support.

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As always, sharing with friends and family also goes a long way. Dispatch is available in all of your favorite podcast apps by searching ciel dispatch.

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All relevant links are still dispatch.com.

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And recently, I've been playing around. I also launched citadelwire.com

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where you can listen to the most recent cilla dispatch, the most recent rabbit hole recap,

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and get on demand news

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for my soulless robot slave who I've been training and curating to try and

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provide the most relevant

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news using live market data.

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Got Polymarket plugged into them and

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Bitcoin prices and a bunch of other data sources. So that's a bit of a work in progress, but check it out at citadelwire.com.

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Anyway, we have a great show lined up today. I have Scott here. He is the cofounder of Sideswap. Sideswap

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has

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just been grinding along,

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great product in the liquid ecosystem, something we haven't talked about for a while on the show. How's it going, Scott?

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Hey, Matt.

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Thanks for inviting me. Yeah.

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Everything's

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been going very well. SideSport's been growing very nicely these past few years.

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It started out quite slow, but we're growing organically and cash

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flow positive and

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very happy with where we are. We we focus much on the tech and building out what

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we hope is a

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great product like by users. We're focused much on marketing, which is why you may not have heard of us much.

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Yeah. So, I mean, I was not really familiar with you guys. I, like, kind of a little bit couple years back.

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And then I started playing with Samson's Aqua Wallet, which more people might be familiar with, which is tries to do lightning

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and Bitcoin with with liquid as the

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base at rest. So it sits in liquid, and then he does swaps for receiving and sending, which we've seen a couple wallets do that. But BullWallet has been doing it recently. Breeze has their own SDK that uses it as well. Breeze has, like, two rival SDKs in house. One does liquid and one does spark. But I was playing around with AquaWallet, and then I saw on the back end, they were using you as a provider, which was cool. And then I was like, okay. Well, let me see what they're doing directly.

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And that's that's kinda how I was reintroduced

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to you guys. And we had a mutual friend

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put us in touch and

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I it's just it's impressive what you guys have been quietly building with, like you said, very little fanfare. So I mean, to the freaks

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to our audience here, what is sideswap? How should they think about sideswap?

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Well,

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Sideswap

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at its base is really a non custodial wallet, and it's based on the Bitcoin premise that your keys, your coins. So when we built the swap market, since Bitcoin doesn't have other assets other than Bitcoin on chain, we started looking at the layer twos. And since Tether was issued on Liquid,

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we figured we could build swap markets.

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We effectively have atomic swaps between two parties.

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So you can create a bulletin board type of system, and you create a swap between the two parties so that settlement happens atomically and instantaneously,

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real time between the two counterparties to the trade. So, we're never a custodian of anything, really. And that's the model that we're very much looking for, and a model we think everyone should really aim for and not go for the custodian models.

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So direct yeah. Go on.

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No. No. Continue, please. Sorry.

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I mean, so the way I look at it is

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for the average person, at least on the surface, SideSwap is

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an app that you can download on your phone

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that lets you easily go from

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regular Bitcoin to liquid Bitcoin and vice versa.

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And then if you want access

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to Tether,

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you can then easily swap between

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liquid Bitcoin

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and liquid Tether. Correct? Correct.

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So one one of the first big hurdles that we encountered was obviously getting people to move between the main chain and the liquid side chain.

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So we effectively built one of these peg in, peg out services since very few people can be

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they don't wanna sit there and sink a full node on both the Bitcoin side and the liquid side in order to be able to create the claim scripts and issue

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coins on liquid. And many of the services at the time had a very high fee.

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So so we cut that down to 0.1%

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and

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had effectively a bridging service,

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which anyone can use, which I I also use this. So

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it's a fifty fifty revenue split on anyone who's a partner and just uses our infrastructure so they don't need to build it up themselves.

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And with that done, we started focusing on swaps

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on liquid so that two participants can trade between themselves

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without having any intermediary.

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So we effectively just offer a bulletin board system so that users can find each other, we help make sure that the swap has integrity so that one party can't cheat the other one by

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effectively saving

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half signed UTXOs,

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which they could theoretically

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broadcast at a later date.

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And so, the way we've built it, we also offer instant swaps, but way it's built, we actually offer order books where anyone can come in and

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improve prices within the order books, and any instant swap is a technically a market order into the order book.

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So dealers compete on pricing.

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So, hopefully, we get spreads which become a lot tighter.

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Right now, I think the spreads are about 0.2,

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0.3%

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away from,

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shall we say, the midpoint price many times.

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And,

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yeah, so there's

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lots of trading opportunities and lots of liquidity. The areas that we've really seen grow, initially, was

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a loss around USDT,

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but lately, it's been DeepPicks. It's really, really grown in

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the Brazilian market. What is DeepX?

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I saw it in the wallet.

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DeepX

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is a Brazilian stablecoin

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issued by a company, I believe, called Ulan.

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So so they have been behind much of the,

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increase in adoption

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within liquid lately.

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That's a good Yeah. So if we're looking at our swap market just in terms of trades and transactions,

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I'd say DeepX is probably the biggest market right now.

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Not in terms of more, but in terms of transaction counts.

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In transaction count, DeepX is the biggest, but in terms of total amount

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Yeah. Tether is still bigger? Much bigger.

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So,

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yeah, go on. People are lot more comfortable holding Tether, obviously.

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Yeah. They've been around for, I mean, Tether's bread and butter is a high net worth, right? They've been around for a decade plus.

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Exactly.

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Whereas,

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I think, Depix's many local payments within the Brazilian ecosystem. But it brings in a lot of users even if the transaction volumes aren't that large.

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How do I spell Depix?

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D e p I x.

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Depix

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stablecoin.

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Interesting.

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So so okay. There's a couple of things here. First of all, the order book thing is

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fascinating.

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It's like, in general, a lot of these quote, unquote instant swap services you see are, first of all, custodial. And second of all, they're kind of like a black box in terms of pricing. So it's cool that you actually have, like, a proper order book that basically anyone can participate in and become market makers. And as a result, it's more transparent pricing. And, theoretically,

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I guess, it should be better pricing.

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I think it's pretty cool that you can actually participate in the order book on mobile, which makes accessibility

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good. But I assume

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it's quite obvious if you look at the order book for a little bit, like, there's at least there's, like, one or two, like, real market makers there that are putting up more size than others.

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Are they using they're not using, a mobile wallet. Right? Like, they is there, like, a CLI or something that they're accessing the order book with? We've built quite a suite of tools. So in our GitHub repo, anyone can download the dealing software.

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Anyone needs help setting things up,

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everything's available,

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you can write your own frontline code.

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So,

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I think we had a bit of an issue with that at one point since people were flooding the system with lots of quotes.

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You know, growing pains are good pains.

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Yeah. I agree with that. Okay. Fascinating. I mean, before we continue on, I mean, I think

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the big question that we've been asking on this show for years now,

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and I think Bitcoiners have been asking for a while, is

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ironically, the lack of liquidity on liquid and the lack of users using liquid seems like cautiously optimistic in terms of adoption increasing lately. And I would say partially, it's

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probably these wallets that are using

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Liquid at rest for Lightning payments, specifically bull and Aqua Wallet. I mean, the fact that liquid has confidential

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assets,

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which incorporates confidential transactions. So each transaction, you can't see the amount or the asset that's being sent,

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whether that's Bitcoin or Tether or whatever,

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means that people that, you know, maybe are in the developing world that are sending

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20¢ worth of Bitcoin, you can't tell if that's $2,000 worth of Bitcoin or 20¢ per Bitcoin. So it actually

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compounds kind of beautifully in terms of

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adding,

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I guess, anonymity set to to liquid. Anyway, this is kind of a long winded question. But

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where do you see

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liquid adoption?

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Have you been frustrated with the lack of adoption? Do you are you still? I mean, I assume you're still optimistic on adoption. And how can that be

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accelerated? Because it kinda feels like

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liquid has always been like the ugly stepchild of Bitcoin that just hasn't really found its wings.

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No. Correct. I think it much has to do really with Bitcoin being a one asset chain.

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It didn't really have any scripting abilities or

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or ability to issue other assets so that you can trade things, like, atomically. So so so there was no real layer two which could really scale Bitcoin.

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So I think when all of these other chains came around and they offered all the smart contracts, etcetera,

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very easy for anyone to get involved. I think that took

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off a lot. And many of the exchanges, I think, focused on offering products and development within that area since there's a lot of money flowing in and promise.

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But I think as time goes on, I think Bitcoin, which is like the settlement layer developed properly in financial markets,

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it may have taken a bit more time. But I think liquid is a step in the right direction in terms of how you build secondary layers. There's lots of questions around making

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the two way bank trustless and how you can go about that and the federation model. But if we skip that side of the discussion, it's very nice to have an asset layer, which is like Bitcoin based, UTXO based, that can hold multiple assets so that you can have these financial transactions and swaps and everything else around it. So I just think that side has taken a lot of time to get going, especially since it requires you to manage your own keys.

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I think none of the big wallet custodians

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like Fireblocks or anyone else has integrated Liquid, so it hasn't been very easy for any

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exchange to offer it. So,

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basically, onboarding one by one, people are comfortable holding their own keys.

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But going forward, I think now that simplicity is live on Liquid, I think there's a lot of things that can be done and will offer a lot of fantastic features to users,

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such as being able to create prediction markets

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in a Bitcoin native type of ecosystem.

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Yeah. I mean, I wanna jump in there specifically on the prediction market stuff. But before we do,

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just real quick, I mean, like, my fascination with liquid has always been on the privacy side, specifically confidential transactions.

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You know, a lot of the probability analysis that Bitcoin chain surveillance firms do is based on amount correlation.

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And once you remove those amounts from being visible, it makes their job of detecting

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when ownership has changed hands much more difficult. On the asset side, let's be frank. I think most tokens that have been launched in crypto are just straight up scams, and the ones that aren't are also just probably horrible investments except for

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the undeniable

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USD tokens,

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specifically Tether. Right? And we've seen a massive market for Tether on Tron specifically

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to a lesser extent on Solana and Ethereum.

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And it's fascinating to me

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because

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if you use those ecosystems,

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it's even worse than Bitcoin privacy. It's like you have a fixed address that is literally your entire transaction history.

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And so where I'm going with this is

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right now, it seems like

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I'm cautiously optimistic that financial privacy in, quote, unquote, broader crypto space seems to be having a moment. First, we saw it kinda with the Zcash pump

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and dump. And then recently,

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Ray Dalio and Chamath both mentioned financial privacy as a concern. And I think part of it is because of the of of not even Bitcoin. Like, Bitcoin could have better privacy, but it's still relatively accessible. But the privacy situation on the Tron or Solana is absolutely abysmal. It's horrible.

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So I'm surprised

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that there hasn't been more uptick

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on

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just the Tethr use case. Like, if you want to use Tethr,

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which obviously has a trusted third party, and I've never advocated for people to use Tethr, but there's plenty of demand for people that want Tethr and want access to US dollars where they can't get it otherwise. The most private way to access Tether is

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through liquid

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and specifically through sideswap because you make peg in so easy

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and peg out so easy and you make the ecosystem much easier, much more accessible. Why do you think we haven't really seen

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like, let's nail down specifically on Tethr. Like, why haven't we seen specifically massive Tethr adoption on Liquid? It's like, oh, it's pretty much negligible compared to the other chains. Well, it's

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absolutely nothing. I I think there was about $35,000,000

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of tethers circulating on Liquid up until

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a few months ago when it was increased to 90 something million. So if you compare that to the other chains, it's

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a drop in the bucket.

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I think also much of the liquidity on the other chains

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is not really held in private wallets. It's held with custodians in one shape or form.

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With liquids, as there are no custodians,

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By definition,

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people who are comfortable holding their own keys on on assets

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that affects

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the balances

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for you. But something that's very interesting, which few people might have considered,

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is that USDT on liquid, it's the only due to the confidential transaction nature of it, the issuer cannot confiscate the balance. They don't know which UTXOs

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are USDT.

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Yeah. They'd have to confiscate it, basically. They'd

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they'd have to confiscate all of it. Right? They'd have to, like, basically shut down Tether on liquid is what

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they could do.

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But they can't do their, like, pick and choose, unblocking this Tron address or whatever. Not like they can do all the other chains.

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Yeah. That's why it's wild to me that just the Tethr use case alone. And so they have a website, usdt.network,

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that tracks all of their usage across the different chains. Just just for reference for the freaks. I mean, Scott said, what'd you say? You said 95,000,000

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Tether on

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liquid?

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Yeah. I I believe it's About that? 100 that ballpark area. Okay. Well, anyway, it's completely negligible. The there's $92,000,000,000

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worth of Tether on Ethereum, $85,000,000,000

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on Tron.

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Yeah. Just with a b.

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Just just to show the discrepancy.

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On the privacy side, I think it's also pretty cool that basically in practice, am I correct

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in saying that

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anyone who's doing

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a

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swap between

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Tether and Bitcoin, Lightning Liquid Bitcoin and Liquid Tether

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is basically a pay join transaction.

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And pay join works even better on

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liquid because of confidential transactions than it does on Bitcoin in terms of breaking probability analysis.

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I think there's a few different aspects to that. Pay join is something that we offer for people who have wallets where they don't have liquid Bitcoin and needs paid network fee.

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So so so we do lots of pay join transactions every day. I think there's about 2 or 3¢

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fee which covers includes the network fee.

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So it's very cheap to do these page on transactions. And

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when we have swap markets where you have two assets traded against each other,

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where you don't have liquid Bitcoin as one of the assets, we actually pay the network fee on behalf of the users in a pay join with the swap. And since the swap, there's two different assets being exchanged, there's very, very little the heuristics become very difficult to

249
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Yeah. It's pretty wild. And particularly at a small user base,

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which is obviously the single biggest thing holding back liquid as a

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as a

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more robust privacy tool.

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But it's impressive that it breaks. It already breaks even at a smaller usage. It's still breaking a lot of heuristics. It makes it quite difficult. Yeah. And especially

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with a peg in, peg out process when you peg in and then you peg out, the federation also selects the UTXOs that you get when you peg out, so there's no correlation between the two. Right. They just know it came from the liquid network.

255
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Yes. Like, if you

256
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pegged out and then sent to strike, they would know that those are

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liquid affiliated transactions, but there wouldn't be a direct connection between

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peg in and peg out.

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We but mind you, this was, like, two, three years ago. We we ran the UTXO sets

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of liquid through one of the chain analysis tools. And the UTXO sets is effectively pristine since is responsible for,

261
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I'd say, a decent chunk of it.

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Fascinating. Oh, yeah. Mean, yeah, let's talk about

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I mean, you mentioned it. Let's talk about prediction markets.

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I mean, to me, one of the big shames is

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that we I mean, Bitcoiners have been talking about prediction markets for over ten years now, and they finally hit critical mass. And the biggest one is on Polygon

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and uses USDC

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as its primary base asset,

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that being Polymarket.

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Obviously,

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like, the functionality

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specifically

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with something like prediction markets, you need it to be self custody. You need to not have liquidity concerns. These things

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make it very difficult to run any kind of prediction market on Lightning. We've seen a competitor pop up called Predix.

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That's basically just a custodial wallet, you know, with managed payouts,

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which I think is just not sustainable or scalable

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and has massive, you know, regulatory

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exposure.

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Liquid seems like it could be ideal for a Bitcoin native prediction market because it has simplicity,

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because you can do self custody type smart contracts, because you have privacy. I mean, we're seeing on the poly market side,

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people's wallets are being tracked. They're like, this person

281
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was successful on these six different military markets. Like, they must be an insider with the Israelis or an insider with The US or like, it's getting

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arguably is it's made it more obvious

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why financial privacy is important on blockchains

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than actual financial transactions themselves,

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because a lot of these markets are quite sensitive.

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So how are you thinking about prediction markets liquid? What kind of opportunities are there?

287
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Well, I think there's many aspects to your question. The first point, Anne, we consider those aspects. I think they're raised now with the insider trading ahead of the Iran, where someone

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seemingly made quite a bit of money betting on the twenty eighth, I believe. Terms of prediction markets being built on the next quarter, I think it's still

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a bit out. We've done so much work in the background because there's so many building blocks that need to come into place before you actually build it. So, what we've been building in the background is effectively a liquid connect type of function so that anyone can plug their wallets into a web page or that the web page can connect with a wallet so that you can send these transactions to the wallet directly. Because these swap transactions, especially with simplistic contracts,

290
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can become, shall we say, fairly messy, nonstandard,

291
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not super easy to do. So it requires a bit of work in that regard,

292
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a bit of meta

293
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mask type of features, but for Liquin. So we've done much of that work. It hopefully should be I mean, we have it ready in introduction, but it should be a lot more useful, I think, next week.

294
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And we should release

295
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a public API so that anyone can integrate.

296
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So so that was the first step. And then the second step is how do you build these prediction markets? So so with Simplicity, you can build these binary contracts.

297
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And we've started playing around with it. I I I'm still not entirely sure all the limitations. You can create these binary contracts

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between two people, and you have an oracle that determines the outcome

299
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of the contract.

300
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So as long as the two parties trust the oracle, you can effectively bet on anything.

301
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But then the question becomes also, how do you get people to fund the contract at the same time?

302
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Because if you create markets where someone needs to fund the contracts initially and then someone funds the contract as a later date, you need to create some sort of market structure that allows for that. What we've done is we've applied our order book and our swap market to it.

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So we're looking at trading markets where you have a instead of an order book that goes from with a Bitcoin price, say, from wherever it is now,

304
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70,000.

305
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So you have an order book that goes from zero to a 100, effectively. And so the bid will be the yes outcome, and the offer will be the no outcome.

306
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And wherever you bid

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within that order book is the prediction rate. So whoever's on, shall we say, the yes side, it bids 30. They fund the contract with 30¢,

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and the offer will need to fund it with 70¢ so that there's 1 full dollar in the contract. And once the contract once the prediction either comes true or false, when the Oracle has a definite outcome, it's a winner take all type of situation

309
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where everything goes to one of the two parties.

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And that's effectively how you price it.

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Our order book structure, we can create that so that two parties enter into a swap at the same time and that the contract is funded with the swap at once

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so that you don't have the issues of who goes first, etc, funding a contract and creating an order book with resting orders and

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people having locked up funds waiting for other users to come in, etc, etc. To be honest, I'm not sure how Polymarket's

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done it. I know their order book's quite efficient, but the question is, how does it actually work under the hood?

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I'm pretty sure they're basically trading yes and no tokens on each market has their own tokens.

316
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I mean, the user doesn't see it.

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That's one option going

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about it, but the other option is creating the

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contract directly, and you have the two users fund the contract.

320
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Yeah. There's a couple of different things. Right? Because it's like, okay. With prediction markets for prediction markets to work at scale, you need a couple of things. You need

321
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you need the ability for people to participate anonymously.

322
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Because the whole idea is trading prediction markets benefits insiders,

323
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Tracking and watching prediction markets benefits outsiders because you're giving insiders an incentive, a financial incentive to effectively

324
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tip their hand and and trade a market, which then exposes

325
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which exposes their belief on how that market will what the outcome will be. So they need to be able to do it anonymously

326
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because if they work for Intel or if they work for a government or something, they're not gonna do it unless they can do it anonymously.

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So with that understanding,

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then it needs to be at least relatively decentralized

329
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and self custodial because if there's a single company

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that is controlling funds and controlling payouts,

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then they're ultimately gonna be pressured by a government to docs all users. So you're never gonna have

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permissionless

333
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participation

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unless it's relatively decentralized.

335
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And then the last piece is

336
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the Oracle problem, which is how do you how do you determine in a

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robust

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and objective way what actually happened to settle the contracts afterwards?

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And so

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Polymarket,

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like, kind of made it there on all of those pieces, but they kind of hand waved a bunch of stuff away, like Polygon itself,

342
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you know, I think could be argued that it's still pretty centralized. Ethereum,

343
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very centralized. USDC,

344
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obviously, is completely centralized and can be frozen at will. The Oracle problem, they haven't actually solved. They just offload it. It's like they don't make the decision. They have like for each market, there's a designated

345
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quote unquote on contract Oracles.

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So there's it's still

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crypto native, if you will, but it's still ultimately, you know, centralized entities saying ESPN reported that the game was, you know, the Clippers won the basketball game or whatever. So they didn't solve the Oracle problem,

348
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and they're, like, kind of,

349
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quote, unquote, decentralized enough to not have to do KYC and block people's access to markets.

350
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And I think this is just something interesting, by the way, for Bitcoiners and Liquid,

351
00:28:41.120 --> 00:28:41.600
where

352
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the shit corners have done a really good job of

353
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kind of being pragmatic

354
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about trade off balance when it comes to censorship resistance and decentralization

355
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that Bitcoiners have not been. I mean, I we haven't really touched on it, but there's a lot of controversy, for instance, around

356
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the liquid federation model and whether or not it is technically self custody or not.

357
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But if you which is something that's, I think, unique to the Bitcoin community. Because if you look at something like Tron,

358
00:29:13.235 --> 00:29:21.235
it's pretty much the same trust model as liquid. But Tron has gotten a pass from regulators, they consider it decentralized

359
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enough. And Tron, like I said earlier,

360
00:29:23.795 --> 00:29:24.434
has

361
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$85,000,000,000

362
00:29:26.275 --> 00:29:32.929
of Tether volume alone on it, which is a wild stat. So to me, liquid could be

363
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this middle ground for Bitcoiners.

364
00:29:35.890 --> 00:29:37.010
And we could actually

365
00:29:37.810 --> 00:29:52.125
I mean, there could actually be a trust model set up on a liquid style prediction market that is significantly better than Polymarket, which is right now operating at scale with very sensitive markets at a 10,000,000,000 plus valuation with many, many users. And it seems like

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too good of an opportunity to to miss out. So, I mean, on that point, that was very long winded. But you more than anyone, know, mean, you've been quietly bootstrapping and building a business on liquid.

367
00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:08.690
How do you think about that trust model in terms of the federated model?

368
00:30:09.985 --> 00:30:12.144
Because I mean, it could kill your business if

369
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it wasn't

370
00:30:15.345 --> 00:30:24.385
sufficient enough, let me put it that way. Of course. And that's also one of the growing pains that we'll need to encounter at some point. But right now, while we're so small, I think

371
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:31.320
no one's looked deeply enough at all all of these questions in terms of liquid, the federation,

372
00:30:31.320 --> 00:30:33.800
how it's structured, set up, is it decentralized

373
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enough, etcetera, etcetera.

374
00:30:36.040 --> 00:30:41.845
Right now, we're very much just focused on getting the market model correctly, get everything easier

375
00:30:42.245 --> 00:30:46.805
for users to access, make it easy to trade. Since everything's non custodial,

376
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you hold your own wallet, you hold your own keys, the contracts are on chain, swap into it, it can be verified

377
00:30:55.040 --> 00:30:58.639
within the wallet by the users prior to executing

378
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:00.960
the swap.

379
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:03.840
But then there's all the questions.

380
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:11.295
So the question is, is that decentralized enough? It's very difficult to say. Different regulators may take a different view given the government's

381
00:31:11.295 --> 00:31:12.255
model. Very

382
00:31:12.655 --> 00:31:22.700
unclear. Then there's, I think, all the questions around how the oracle is constructed, etcetera. We're not trying to solve all of these, should we say, philosophical or mathematical questions.

383
00:31:22.860 --> 00:31:26.460
Right now, we're just focusing on trying to get the market structure correct.

384
00:31:26.860 --> 00:31:32.380
Once we have that in place, we can start tinkering around the edges with everything else. I think the Oracle like that.

385
00:31:33.075 --> 00:31:37.874
Super easy to solve. Blockstream's working on it. They have a model that they proposed.

386
00:31:37.955 --> 00:31:40.835
Is that good enough? Not sure.

387
00:31:42.755 --> 00:31:46.114
I mean, it's like I said, it's not like Polymarket has solved it.

388
00:31:46.434 --> 00:31:47.554
It just needs to be

389
00:31:49.289 --> 00:31:52.090
robust enough. It's never gonna be we're not gonna

390
00:31:53.690 --> 00:31:54.889
I'm convinced

391
00:31:55.130 --> 00:31:58.409
that the Oracle problem is is unsolvable.

392
00:31:58.409 --> 00:32:04.674
So you can mitigate it. You can create a a relatively usable and decent and robust solution,

393
00:32:04.835 --> 00:32:09.315
but actually, quote, unquote, solving the Oracle problem, solving something happening

394
00:32:09.555 --> 00:32:12.034
in the real world and then being able to

395
00:32:12.915 --> 00:32:33.044
cryptographically prove it on chain is gonna require some trusted third parties that are cryptographically proving it on chain. Those trusted parties, you can reduce their influence or risk by combining multiple of them, by adding reputation systems. I think DLCs are interesting where they're providing Oracles, but they don't know which market they're providing Oracles for.

396
00:32:33.285 --> 00:32:36.005
There's different ways you can do that. But at the end of the day,

397
00:32:36.645 --> 00:32:46.620
for someone on chain to know what the weather was in Chicago yesterday, like, there's gonna be trusted third parties. There's I I don't think is solvable in that regard.

398
00:32:47.420 --> 00:32:50.700
There's no way around it, I think. Yeah. Exactly.

399
00:32:51.020 --> 00:32:54.460
And on the on the point of liquid, I mean, would you agree with me? Like,

400
00:32:55.755 --> 00:33:07.274
custody, if you consider Tron self custody, I think you have to consider liquid self custody. I mean, Justin Sun is basically arguably the model for Tron is worse than liquid in terms of censorship resistance

401
00:33:07.755 --> 00:33:08.795
and trusted third parties.

402
00:33:09.450 --> 00:33:12.330
I mean, I would say so that obviously, I'm biased.

403
00:33:12.649 --> 00:33:16.729
I mean, my hope as well is in that direction. So take it from what it is.

404
00:33:18.090 --> 00:33:19.770
I will say that I think

405
00:33:22.184 --> 00:33:43.570
where we're seeing I mean, the big one that everyone is I mean, anyone who's actually building in the space has been paying attention to is Spark. And there's a lot out of Light Spark, which is David Marcus's a 16 z funded company after he was formerly working for Facebook for Meta. And I'm already seeing like the Bitcoin culture fights over whether or not that is considered self custody.

406
00:33:44.049 --> 00:33:47.570
And it's a similar idea of a pragmatic approach

407
00:33:47.890 --> 00:33:51.090
that is maybe more similar to what we see in shitcoin land,

408
00:33:51.715 --> 00:33:54.434
but I think could be very useful for Bitcoiners.

409
00:33:54.835 --> 00:33:58.114
No. And I wonder if that will bring more attention to liquid

410
00:33:58.595 --> 00:34:00.434
because I mean, if you

411
00:34:00.754 --> 00:34:02.674
mono a mono it out,

412
00:34:02.995 --> 00:34:04.674
I think the liquid model is

413
00:34:05.509 --> 00:34:11.590
more robust than the spark model. And then you have other things. Like, I love the Phoenix team with async. Like,

414
00:34:12.550 --> 00:34:23.205
the trust model for that is not as clear cut as you hold your keys, you have self custody. On chain is very clean. On chain Bitcoin is very clean. It's either self custody or it isn't. Once you start

415
00:34:23.685 --> 00:34:28.885
playing with the trade off balances across the stack, things get a little bit more definitionally

416
00:34:28.885 --> 00:34:29.445
messy.

417
00:34:30.060 --> 00:34:34.380
And I think the Bitcoin community specifically has been wrestling with that for

418
00:34:34.620 --> 00:34:35.740
many years now.

419
00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:38.860
But but, I mean, it's a

420
00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:46.265
I mean, if you look at how the financial system is built, you take the a central bank, They operate one ledger.

421
00:34:46.425 --> 00:34:53.705
But then you have all the commercial banks below. They each operate their own ledger. So if you wanna move cash from one one bank to another,

422
00:34:54.025 --> 00:35:00.105
it's actually the the bank's accounts at the central bank that need to update before the banks themselves update

423
00:34:59.799 --> 00:35:01.000
their own accounts.

424
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:06.920
So the whole financial system is built on lots of different ledgers, and all these clearing houses are

425
00:35:07.160 --> 00:35:10.840
effectively the ones managing the risks between the different ledgers and,

426
00:35:11.319 --> 00:35:14.520
should we say, the net deferred settlement between ledgers.

427
00:35:15.215 --> 00:35:21.615
So so for Bitcoin to scale, given that it's one asset chain, you need these secondary layers somehow.

428
00:35:21.775 --> 00:35:23.375
Since there's no solution

429
00:35:23.615 --> 00:35:24.335
yet

430
00:35:25.295 --> 00:35:30.015
exactly of how to create these exact or trustless two two way pace

431
00:35:30.410 --> 00:35:33.690
between the Bitcoin main chain and the side chain.

432
00:35:33.850 --> 00:35:40.890
There's always gonna be these different trade offs and discussion around how decentralized is it, at what point do the regulators consider it being

433
00:35:41.130 --> 00:35:43.930
decentralized or not. So, there's always these

434
00:35:44.250 --> 00:35:44.730
questions.

435
00:35:46.575 --> 00:35:47.695
Yeah. Of course.

436
00:35:47.935 --> 00:35:49.215
It's just interesting.

437
00:35:49.295 --> 00:35:50.575
It's an interesting

438
00:35:52.095 --> 00:35:54.015
interesting thoughts to go down.

439
00:35:54.735 --> 00:35:59.375
I mean, I'm sure we're gonna get comments about it too, which is why it's it's incredibly important to talk about it.

440
00:36:01.490 --> 00:36:04.210
Pretty much they come up anytime liquid is brought up.

441
00:36:04.930 --> 00:36:05.970
I wanna talk about

442
00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:12.130
and I think rightfully so. I think it's good that the community is

443
00:36:13.335 --> 00:36:15.415
at least a subset of the community,

444
00:36:15.655 --> 00:36:23.175
which percentage wise is getting smaller by the day, but absolute numbers wise has never been higher, cares so much about these hard questions and

445
00:36:23.494 --> 00:36:30.150
sovereignty and and using these things in freedom oriented way as well. Like I was like I said, like, shit corners kinda just

446
00:36:30.550 --> 00:36:38.470
throw it out the window and think of it as an afterthought. You guys recently launched a new product. Are you at liberty to talk about it right now? Or

447
00:36:38.870 --> 00:36:40.710
Yeah. So

448
00:36:40.630 --> 00:36:44.545
this is, like, our first dipping our toes into the Simplicity,

449
00:36:44.785 --> 00:36:47.745
should we say, pool, if we're in

450
00:36:47.825 --> 00:36:49.025
the liquid space.

451
00:36:49.345 --> 00:36:55.745
Look, what we've effectively we have this website or sister website called Swaption,

452
00:36:55.745 --> 00:36:56.305
where

453
00:36:56.625 --> 00:36:58.760
we've climbed this Liquid Connect,

454
00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:00.520
which is

455
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:02.440
a bit of a privacy

456
00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:11.880
docs since this if you do connect, you share the watching only wallet with Liquid Connect because otherwise, it wouldn't be able to help you create the transactions and

457
00:37:12.385 --> 00:37:22.305
everything within your wallet and send the transaction signing to your wallet. So there is that aspect to consider. Would you similar to the trade off with using, like, an Electrum server, right, on chain Bitcoin?

458
00:37:23.105 --> 00:37:23.665
Yeah.

459
00:37:24.225 --> 00:37:25.425
No. No. Exactly.

460
00:37:26.500 --> 00:37:27.220
Right.

461
00:37:27.620 --> 00:37:33.540
Okay. Continue. There is that trade off. I mean, we never data mine our users or anything else. So,

462
00:37:33.940 --> 00:37:38.740
I mean, there's no way for users to verify that. But in terms of Swaption,

463
00:37:38.900 --> 00:37:42.955
so with the Liquid Connect function that we've developed with the wallet,

464
00:37:43.435 --> 00:37:43.835
if

465
00:37:44.474 --> 00:37:49.995
you visit the Swaption webpage, what we've built is the first binary outcome contracts,

466
00:37:50.395 --> 00:37:54.395
which is the first step in the direction towards prediction markets effectively.

467
00:37:55.089 --> 00:37:57.730
So, we have two different products. One is,

468
00:37:58.050 --> 00:38:05.970
will the Bitcoin price be higher or lower in, should we say, two, five, or ten minutes than it is now? And then the other product is,

469
00:38:06.930 --> 00:38:12.045
will the price of Bitcoin go up or down like one, two, three, four, or ten percent

470
00:38:12.525 --> 00:38:13.325
first?

471
00:38:13.485 --> 00:38:16.445
So it's binary outcome, does it go up or down 10%?

472
00:38:17.085 --> 00:38:19.005
So people can make bets

473
00:38:19.005 --> 00:38:22.045
in terms of direction, etcetera, hedge positions

474
00:38:24.710 --> 00:38:42.605
with leverage. So the idea is also here is to open up so that anyone can trade in the order book and provide liquidity and improve pricing, etcetera. So right now, there's not fantastic payouts, but we're working very hard in that direction to create these order book type of markets so that anyone can come in and provide liquidity.

475
00:38:43.805 --> 00:38:46.525
So, I mean, your main website is sideswap.

476
00:38:48.045 --> 00:38:50.445
Correct. That's that's you download the app, and

477
00:38:50.970 --> 00:38:56.330
web page is being reworked as well. Soon, you'll be able to use the Liquid Connect and trade via the web page as well.

478
00:38:56.890 --> 00:38:58.250
And then Swaption,

479
00:38:58.250 --> 00:39:00.170
is is it swaption.com?

480
00:39:00.570 --> 00:39:00.890
I

481
00:39:01.930 --> 00:39:03.130
swaption.io.

482
00:39:03.744 --> 00:39:07.025
And then that's swaption.

483
00:39:07.025 --> 00:39:10.385
I'll put all these links in the show notes. And then liquid

484
00:39:10.705 --> 00:39:22.990
wallet connect is basically I have the sideswap app on my phone or another compatible liquid wallet, which I don't think there are any right now. Yeah. Not that like, scanning a QR code on the website to sign in, basically. Right?

485
00:39:23.390 --> 00:39:27.310
Correct. So if you have a desktop wallet, it will detect the desktop wallet

486
00:39:28.190 --> 00:39:29.390
with with the browser.

487
00:39:29.710 --> 00:39:36.984
Do you have a desk sideswap has a desktop wallet too? Yeah. So we build everything in Faster, so it's very easy to go across platform.

488
00:39:38.105 --> 00:39:45.464
And then so you were saying this is kind of, in a lot of ways, it's kind of a proof of concept because it's a relatively simple type of market that you could have

489
00:39:45.940 --> 00:39:51.140
compared to a prediction market. Exactly. So so so we're dipping our toes. This is like the first

490
00:39:51.380 --> 00:39:52.980
MVP that we push out.

491
00:39:53.220 --> 00:39:59.140
There's only one dealer we don't allow yet, but but that's coming that anyone can compete and improve pricing.

492
00:40:01.595 --> 00:40:11.595
And then, the next steps are obviously developing these open order books so that anyone can come in, maybe add functions such as auto signing, etcetera, and the Liquid Connect so that users don't need to

493
00:40:12.155 --> 00:40:15.275
sign every transaction so it becomes a bit more polymarket,

494
00:40:15.770 --> 00:40:16.650
if you will.

495
00:40:16.970 --> 00:40:25.050
So there's lots of new thoughts in terms of different directions we can go, but we'd love for Acquan, other wallet, obviously, to integrate so that it becomes ubiquitous

496
00:40:25.050 --> 00:40:26.730
within the Liquid ecosystem.

497
00:40:27.130 --> 00:40:28.490
Liquid Wallet Connect.

498
00:40:29.849 --> 00:40:38.085
That makes sense to me. But it's developed by us. So, I mean, it's Conlec would connect, but let's see if others pick it up or if it's actually SiteSwap Connect.

499
00:40:38.805 --> 00:40:58.290
Fair enough. I mean, we kinda have a similar situation in the Nastra ecosystem where we have an open standard called NSEC bunker that uses either paste either paste a code or or use a QR code scan. I think QR code scan makes a lot of sense. Like, the user has a mobile phone. They're, like, scanning with QR code. But the reason I bring it up is because we integrated into Primal.

500
00:40:58.450 --> 00:40:59.650
So it works with any

501
00:40:59.985 --> 00:41:08.945
Nostra website that has the standard setup. But we are seeing people like add, like, some people frame it as sign in with Primal, even though it's an open standard and technically,

502
00:41:09.345 --> 00:41:14.225
anyone else can have NSEC bunker support, which is important, I think. I mean, you want

503
00:41:14.890 --> 00:41:28.330
you know, I think part of the challenge you guys have had is it seems like you've been building quality product, but you need other people to also be building around you. You need more wallets. You need more hardware wallets. It's just Jade right now. Right? You need more

504
00:41:29.130 --> 00:41:37.525
use cases. There's quite a few others you have integrated, like different types of service providers, different wallets, mainly actually in the Brazilian ecosystem

505
00:41:37.605 --> 00:41:39.285
around deep picks.

506
00:41:39.445 --> 00:41:49.940
And anyone who integrates with us, we offer a split on any volumes they drive our way. So it's a very easy way for them to build wallets, not have to develop all the swap market infrastructure, etcetera.

507
00:41:50.260 --> 00:41:51.140
They just

508
00:41:51.380 --> 00:41:55.460
plug our stack, and then we split the web of trading fees fiftyfifty.

509
00:41:56.575 --> 00:42:04.735
So so it makes a lot of sense for for them as well, and it helps us build network effects around our markets so that we get deep liquidity.

510
00:42:05.375 --> 00:42:11.055
Yeah. I mean, liquidity begets liquidity. It's, the hardest network effect to tackle, but once you get it

511
00:42:11.550 --> 00:42:12.110
Yeah.

512
00:42:13.390 --> 00:42:18.590
What like, where did the DPX guys come from? Was that a why'd they choose liquid? That's pretty

513
00:42:20.670 --> 00:42:21.950
That's a very good question.

514
00:42:22.830 --> 00:42:39.425
I'm not quite sure. I actually think one of the aspects was that one of the premises of the size swap market is that any asset you hold in your wallets, you you can post on the bulletin board and create markets for. And we have all this dealing software that we offer for free so that anyone can create liquidity in whatever asset they have.

515
00:42:40.200 --> 00:42:44.200
So did they start using you without even talking to you, or was there a conversation?

516
00:42:44.520 --> 00:42:48.840
There was no conversation until they were not. Which is so cool. That's

517
00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:50.040
super cyberpunk.

518
00:42:50.520 --> 00:42:51.160
And

519
00:42:51.320 --> 00:43:04.905
but but moreover, since we don't charge any listing fees or anything else, so if they went, like, in the Tron ecosystem, if they wanna get listed with Bonnie now, what would that cost to list their coin? Right. Millions of dollars. It it it it it worked.

520
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:09.880
So so the barriers to entry, I think, in liquid are so low because anyone can issue assets.

521
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:14.119
And if you trade through sites, well, there's absolutely no gatekeeping asshole.

522
00:43:14.200 --> 00:43:15.160
Anyone can

523
00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:17.880
create order books for whatever product they have.

524
00:43:18.485 --> 00:43:19.605
That's pretty cool.

525
00:43:19.845 --> 00:43:21.765
So, I mean, you mentioned Simplicity,

526
00:43:21.765 --> 00:43:24.565
and Simplicity is a smart contract language

527
00:43:25.365 --> 00:43:26.085
that

528
00:43:26.405 --> 00:43:36.080
Blockstream championed for liquid with the, like, the hope, I think, that one day it could be used on Bitcoin on chain as well. Ironically,

529
00:43:37.200 --> 00:43:42.880
given the name, it's actually not that simple to get your head around. Do you have a high level explanation of

530
00:43:43.200 --> 00:43:45.039
why Bitcoin should care about simplicity?

531
00:43:46.595 --> 00:43:47.715
Well, I I

532
00:43:49.875 --> 00:43:56.355
think high level abilities for Bitcoin to have different types of scripting options were, like, limited to, like,

533
00:43:58.450 --> 00:43:59.810
time locked contracts,

534
00:43:59.810 --> 00:44:00.610
hash

535
00:44:00.610 --> 00:44:01.970
lock, etcetera.

536
00:44:01.970 --> 00:44:07.490
There wasn't much functionality around building financial markets. So with simplicity, you have something

537
00:44:07.890 --> 00:44:11.650
where you have contracts which can be mathematically proven

538
00:44:11.970 --> 00:44:16.845
ahead of time so you actually know what you're signing when you get yourself into it. But moreover,

539
00:44:16.845 --> 00:44:18.365
you can also create these

540
00:44:19.805 --> 00:44:22.125
binary outcome type of situations,

541
00:44:22.125 --> 00:44:25.325
such as prediction markets. You can create these financial derivatives.

542
00:44:25.710 --> 00:44:36.830
There's a lot more scripting opportunities since you can have these external articles that determine the outcome, etcetera, etcetera. So so with that, you have a lot more opportunities to build financial products

543
00:44:37.070 --> 00:44:38.830
which are Bitcoin native.

544
00:44:40.445 --> 00:44:46.205
So so I think it's very early days. It went live on liquid. It's not live on Bitcoin, as you said.

545
00:44:46.685 --> 00:44:50.525
I think there's a lot to play around with to test, and it becomes

546
00:44:50.685 --> 00:45:05.740
possible to create these, like, hodl hodl type of structures, etcetera. You can create options, futures, binary outcome contracts, etcetera, etcetera. So I think it's super, super valuable, but but we're so early days. I think Swaption is the first one to go live with anything with simplicity.

547
00:45:06.365 --> 00:45:10.205
We have maybe 10 trades a day. Most of the trades are,

548
00:45:10.765 --> 00:45:13.005
I should say, very low value at this stage.

549
00:45:13.964 --> 00:45:17.725
People are just dipping their toes to try and understand the product, I think.

550
00:45:18.365 --> 00:45:22.204
So if anyone's out there and wants to play around with it, feel free to

551
00:45:22.740 --> 00:45:23.860
go ahead.

552
00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:26.740
There's no KYC or AML to get involved.

553
00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:33.540
Yeah. I mean, and the key there is you can set up these types of p to p exchanges

554
00:45:33.860 --> 00:45:36.180
and whatnot without giving up custody

555
00:45:36.494 --> 00:45:39.454
using something like simplicity. Right? Correct.

556
00:45:41.134 --> 00:45:45.695
And I guess it's kind of been pitched to me as like a

557
00:45:45.934 --> 00:45:51.615
competitor to how Ethereum does things that is more conservative and safety oriented,

558
00:45:51.694 --> 00:45:55.830
more robust coming out of it from a bit corner mindset rather than a shit corner mindset.

559
00:45:55.910 --> 00:45:58.950
But offering a lot of the same potential,

560
00:45:58.950 --> 00:46:01.350
I guess, if used appropriately.

561
00:46:02.230 --> 00:46:04.550
Exactly. The contract is mathematically

562
00:46:04.550 --> 00:46:05.430
verifiable

563
00:46:05.885 --> 00:46:11.245
ahead of time. Whereas, think on Ethereum, many times when a developer creates these

564
00:46:11.405 --> 00:46:16.525
smart contracts or vaults, there's a lot of how skilled is the developer behind it.

565
00:46:17.405 --> 00:46:18.845
Right. And very easy to verify.

566
00:46:20.600 --> 00:46:21.480
Fair enough.

567
00:46:22.600 --> 00:46:23.480
Fascinating.

568
00:46:26.200 --> 00:46:29.960
Yeah. So I'll put links to all this stuff in the show notes. I mean, to the

569
00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.760
to the audience, like, do you

570
00:46:33.635 --> 00:46:38.595
how can they be helpful? What are you what are you looking for? I mean, obviously

571
00:46:40.194 --> 00:46:43.475
yeah. Well, what is it? Do you have a call to action for them or

572
00:46:43.954 --> 00:46:59.290
how you think about it? I mean, I'd love for people to just download the app and send them to shrapnel amounts of Bitcoin into liquid and just play around with swaps. Just see what's possible, what what's out there, how far it's come. Just do a few swaps back and forth.

573
00:47:00.010 --> 00:47:05.845
Try the order books. Go to SwapShare, just try these Simplicity contracts and just see where things are heading.

574
00:47:06.805 --> 00:47:10.245
And I think things will clear up for a lot of people because it's one thing to

575
00:47:10.565 --> 00:47:21.440
for us to discuss back and forth, but once you get your hands on something and actually start playing around with it, trying it out, it just resonates so much more with you, if that's what you believe where things should be heading.

576
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:28.240
And hopefully, more eyeballs will start looking at this and start developing these simplistic products and

577
00:47:29.415 --> 00:47:31.495
building a lot more financial products

578
00:47:31.735 --> 00:47:32.935
around Liquid.

579
00:47:33.735 --> 00:47:35.495
Yeah. What I would say is

580
00:47:38.615 --> 00:47:39.415
just on

581
00:47:39.895 --> 00:47:42.935
in terms of low level

582
00:47:42.210 --> 00:47:45.330
playing around with liquid, I mean, if you install

583
00:47:45.650 --> 00:47:47.570
BullWallet by Bull Bitcoin

584
00:47:48.369 --> 00:47:57.010
so that's not their exchange service. I think people get confused by it, but this is their self custody wallet that offers on chain liquid and lightning. Aqua Wallet,

585
00:47:57.995 --> 00:48:00.395
which is Samson's wallet,

586
00:48:00.475 --> 00:48:01.435
which offers

587
00:48:03.035 --> 00:48:08.715
on chain lightning liquid, and then also Tether support. And then the side swap app,

588
00:48:09.275 --> 00:48:16.380
you can peg in a very small amount for a very small fee from regular Bitcoin into a liquid Bitcoin on SideSwap.

589
00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:19.020
Then you can easily send it between the three wallets.

590
00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:23.020
And then if you go to liquid.network,

591
00:48:23.580 --> 00:48:26.540
which is mempoolmempool.spaces,

592
00:48:26.700 --> 00:48:27.580
liquid instance,

593
00:48:28.275 --> 00:48:31.715
It shows all the transactions that are happening on liquid.network,

594
00:48:32.035 --> 00:48:37.714
and do a little blockchain analysis on yourself. Look at the transactions as they're happening. You can check mempool.space

595
00:48:37.714 --> 00:48:40.994
for your peg in transaction. You can look at liquid.network

596
00:48:40.994 --> 00:48:42.595
for your transactions in between wallets.

597
00:48:43.089 --> 00:48:49.570
Look at what the on chain footprint looks like. I think it's if you care about Bitcoin privacy, it's pretty impressive.

598
00:48:49.890 --> 00:49:01.075
If you do a couple small swaps with Tether or whatnot, you can also see what the privacy situation is in that regard, and I think that's pretty fascinating. I think if you even if you're not interested in,

599
00:49:01.315 --> 00:49:01.875
I

600
00:49:02.115 --> 00:49:05.075
remain convinced that the Tether use case is absolutely massive.

601
00:49:05.315 --> 00:49:25.040
Maybe not for this audience. I think a lot of us don't have a need for Tether. I mean, I have the traditional US banking system. I keep the majority of my family's savings in on chain Bitcoin and self custody. But there's a huge demand for Tether out there. But even if even if you're not interested in that aspect, the settling between

602
00:49:25.120 --> 00:49:26.855
lightning focused wallets.

603
00:49:26.855 --> 00:49:29.895
Like, you have a large amount of funds in bull wallet,

604
00:49:30.295 --> 00:49:32.295
and you wanna move them over to Aqua,

605
00:49:32.775 --> 00:49:38.935
it's way easier to send a native liquid transaction. You don't have to deal with liquidity. You have pretty good privacy

606
00:49:39.095 --> 00:49:39.815
guarantees.

607
00:49:41.099 --> 00:49:46.940
You have very low fees. It's way easier to send using liquid than sending through lightning.

608
00:49:46.940 --> 00:49:50.540
And I have noticed as someone who's been using BullWallet more often,

609
00:49:52.299 --> 00:50:00.765
it's a bit of a breath of fresh air versus having funds, you know, stuck in Phoenix wallet, for instance, and knowing that every time you make a transaction, you're gonna get charged

610
00:50:01.005 --> 00:50:05.965
a 1% fee and you have liquidity constraints and channel management and all that to deal with.

611
00:50:07.005 --> 00:50:12.120
So I think that's an interesting way to get your feet wet. I think the sideswap app in general is

612
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:16.760
you should be very proud of it. It's it feels like a very robust app that is

613
00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:18.359
performance,

614
00:50:18.359 --> 00:50:24.680
you know, like, I I don't feel like it's like lagging when I'm clicking buttons and whatnot. Like, I have confidence in it,

615
00:50:25.365 --> 00:50:34.405
which is not no easy feat as someone who's been heavily involved in building out multiple apps now at this point. So you deserve a lot of credit there. But you know, people should just

616
00:50:34.965 --> 00:50:42.610
it'd be great if people play around with it. And then the last thing I would say is, I don't know, have you been playing around with, like, any of this AI stuff?

617
00:50:43.570 --> 00:50:48.610
I mean, in certain aspects, we've played around quite a bit. But if you mean in terms of

618
00:50:48.850 --> 00:50:56.145
developing things within the liquid ecosystem or side swapping, done very little, helping write press releases, etcetera. Yes. But in

619
00:50:56.704 --> 00:50:57.425
terms of code

620
00:50:58.944 --> 00:51:04.224
I mean, everyone is the the newest thing to hit the block was this open call idea, which is,

621
00:51:05.220 --> 00:51:07.220
you know, I think directionally

622
00:51:07.700 --> 00:51:08.580
fascinating

623
00:51:08.580 --> 00:51:10.500
and probably still pretty early.

624
00:51:10.820 --> 00:51:14.020
But this idea of like having a self hosted robot

625
00:51:14.020 --> 00:51:15.940
that has its own memory and can access

626
00:51:16.914 --> 00:51:22.755
any apps, ideally CLI apps, it's works better with, but it can actually like navigate

627
00:51:22.755 --> 00:51:31.795
a GUI, which is crazy. It can navigate like a graphical user interface or like a website or stuff if there's no API or no CLI. And you basically just have like this robot butler.

628
00:51:32.690 --> 00:51:55.935
And there's I think as a result of it, there's been a a renewed focus on the concept of agentic payments, like how would the agents pay each other. I think what a lot of people miss there is also the agents also have to be able to receive and send payments from humans too. So when you say agentic payments, it's actually not just agent to agent, it's human to agent and agent to human and agent to agent. And liquid could be interesting there. There's

629
00:51:56.734 --> 00:52:01.934
obviously demand for people to have USD token support on these things. USDC

630
00:52:01.580 --> 00:52:06.700
has become very common, at least in the Silicon Valley world of AI stuff.

631
00:52:07.820 --> 00:52:09.420
But the combination

632
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:09.980
of

633
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:14.220
liquid Tether support and liquid Bitcoin support on the same chain

634
00:52:15.015 --> 00:52:21.015
in a way that is as simple as just holding keys. They could just generate a wallet. They don't have to deal with

635
00:52:21.494 --> 00:52:33.310
having the node have uptime, dealing with channel management, dealing with all these other stuff. There there is an interesting opportunity there in terms of liquid being used by the robots. And that, of course, is just leaving out the

636
00:52:33.870 --> 00:52:35.710
vibe coded apps or whatever

637
00:52:36.030 --> 00:52:39.550
building on top of liquid, which is presumably much easier

638
00:52:40.030 --> 00:52:43.565
than on Lightning as well. So that's what I was thinking.

639
00:52:45.805 --> 00:52:46.845
And there's

640
00:52:47.645 --> 00:53:08.340
so many opportunities in all these areas. Whereas super small team, I mean, we're trying to just be laser focused in a small area, and many times, it's probably a bit bit like a horse walking around with blinders. There's so many things happening around you all the time when you're too laser focused in one area. So right now, we're just focused on building these simplistic products,

641
00:53:08.660 --> 00:53:10.020
getting more acquainted with all

642
00:53:10.775 --> 00:53:11.815
limitation of

643
00:53:13.735 --> 00:53:18.055
these binary products. Like, how do you have many parties to trade?

644
00:53:19.655 --> 00:53:22.455
Can you, like, hand over your position in one in

645
00:53:22.455 --> 00:53:27.619
one binary market to someone else if you need to hold to maturity? Can you have netting, etcetera?

646
00:53:27.619 --> 00:53:28.099
But there's

647
00:53:30.019 --> 00:53:30.980
Love it.

648
00:53:31.700 --> 00:53:33.300
So many things to figure out.

649
00:53:33.700 --> 00:53:34.339
Well,

650
00:53:34.900 --> 00:53:36.099
I really wanna see

651
00:53:36.579 --> 00:53:43.055
they're freaks now. I just wanna see native Bitcoin prediction markets with decent privacy guarantees. Think liquid could be the

652
00:53:43.455 --> 00:53:46.655
holy grail for it. We'll see. Cautiously optimistic.

653
00:53:46.655 --> 00:53:51.535
I've been wrong about liquid adoption multiple times, both on the bear side and the bull side.

654
00:53:51.775 --> 00:53:52.655
I think

655
00:53:53.530 --> 00:53:56.810
was probably too bullish at one point, then I was a little bit too bearish.

656
00:53:56.890 --> 00:54:03.850
We recently seen more of an uptick in usage. Maybe the reality is somewhere in the middle, but I applaud you guys for continuing to

657
00:54:04.810 --> 00:54:09.615
build it out and see what works and see what doesn't and try and build out that key infrastructure

658
00:54:10.015 --> 00:54:15.935
to to help everything else grow. I would love if we can we do like a update

659
00:54:16.815 --> 00:54:19.855
show in like six months or something to see where we stand on all this stuff?

660
00:54:20.540 --> 00:54:22.460
I'd love that. I'd love that.

661
00:54:22.780 --> 00:54:24.060
Awesome. Okay.

662
00:54:24.619 --> 00:54:27.740
Scott. Yeah. Go on. Let's do something funnier.

663
00:54:29.180 --> 00:54:32.859
So if we have this updates in six months, prediction wise, where are we?

664
00:54:35.305 --> 00:54:40.105
I'm I'm you're gonna in six months, you're gonna have a full fledged poly market competitor for me.

665
00:54:40.665 --> 00:54:42.265
Let's make MVP

666
00:54:42.265 --> 00:54:43.385
of it anyway.

667
00:54:43.705 --> 00:54:51.410
I mean, where do you think I'm obviously half joking. It's a big undertaking. Where do where do you think liquid and sideswap will be in six months?

668
00:54:51.809 --> 00:54:52.290
I

669
00:54:53.089 --> 00:54:55.570
think we'll have the POC for it.

670
00:54:56.050 --> 00:55:04.875
That's awesome. That's exciting. We're not very far we're we're actually doing in the background a Satoshi dice type of structure. So we're building out a few, like,

671
00:55:06.235 --> 00:55:07.195
more betting

672
00:55:07.195 --> 00:55:08.635
type style of markets

673
00:55:08.955 --> 00:55:27.720
just to figure out what all the edge cases around simplicity and just get the market mechanics correct. So we're heading in that direction towards the prediction market model, but right now, we're just doing the binary outcome type of contracts. So, we need to get the order book correct, where the order book is zero to 100 instead of whatever the price of Bitcoin is. Right.

674
00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:36.215
And then, we need to so, we have Liquid Connect, but there's still a bit more work in that area. And then we need to figure out the whole Oracle aspect to make that

675
00:55:36.855 --> 00:55:39.335
have integrity in some shape, form, regard,

676
00:55:39.974 --> 00:55:46.615
which we don't have any clarity over just yet. Right now, we just have a super simple Oracle that's basically just signing the Bitcoin price

677
00:55:48.470 --> 00:55:51.110
so that the contract can determine outcomes.

678
00:55:52.390 --> 00:55:54.310
There might be something there.

679
00:55:54.390 --> 00:55:56.630
First of all, that makes sense to me. I mean,

680
00:55:57.990 --> 00:56:01.670
you know, you do the little things to get comfortable and

681
00:56:02.285 --> 00:56:05.965
improve your understanding and your execution before you actually go for the

682
00:56:06.685 --> 00:56:08.285
the big one. You know,

683
00:56:09.405 --> 00:56:12.445
Polymarket is using something called UMA.

684
00:56:12.525 --> 00:56:19.460
I don't know. It's, like, so hard to keep track of all the shitcoin stuff. They're using something called UMA's optimistic Oracle,

685
00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:26.020
where there's like a whole process on chain of an Oracle determining the result of markets.

686
00:56:26.580 --> 00:56:27.220
And

687
00:56:27.540 --> 00:56:29.700
that's all on chain on

688
00:56:30.915 --> 00:56:31.715
something.

689
00:56:32.035 --> 00:56:37.555
It's on Polygon or a different shit chain. But because it's all on chain, you might actually be able to just

690
00:56:38.435 --> 00:56:44.115
piggyback their oracles in the beginning because that's a hard thing. It's hard to get people to

691
00:56:45.329 --> 00:56:52.290
step up and be the Oracles is like just a people problem in the beginning. So you might actually be able to just hijack their Oracles

692
00:56:52.609 --> 00:56:54.450
and just use the same

693
00:56:55.250 --> 00:57:01.295
resolution mechanism that they're using in terms of source of truth. If they're already signing cryptographic

694
00:57:01.295 --> 00:57:02.495
attestations

695
00:57:02.974 --> 00:57:05.375
on some chain out there of

696
00:57:05.934 --> 00:57:09.295
ton of markets, right? Like from weather to

697
00:57:09.375 --> 00:57:10.975
missile strikes to

698
00:57:11.055 --> 00:57:11.934
basketball games,

699
00:57:12.670 --> 00:57:16.430
then you could potentially just piggyback them until you have a,

700
00:57:17.150 --> 00:57:19.390
you know, liquid native alternative

701
00:57:19.390 --> 00:57:28.535
out there on the Oracle side. Look into it. I know blockchain putting a lot of work now into the Oracle because they're obviously having a big team now, laser focused on simplicity.

702
00:57:28.775 --> 00:57:35.015
So they're also doing a lot of work around integrating everything. I think they're looking at some Model Connect feature.

703
00:57:35.255 --> 00:57:36.295
Interesting.

704
00:57:36.615 --> 00:57:37.175
Fascinating.

705
00:57:37.940 --> 00:57:42.820
Scott, this has been great. Do you have any final thoughts for the Freaks before we wrap here?

706
00:57:43.220 --> 00:57:47.220
Not much. Just super happy if anyone's made it this far. I'm listening

707
00:57:47.220 --> 00:57:48.339
to us

708
00:57:48.339 --> 00:57:50.740
going about liquid as investors.

709
00:57:51.059 --> 00:57:52.740
My favorite project, SideSwap.

710
00:57:54.075 --> 00:57:54.795
Love it.

711
00:57:55.435 --> 00:58:01.595
Freaks, I'll have links to everything we've discussed in the show notes. Like I said, you'll probably be listening to this in a couple hours.

712
00:58:03.755 --> 00:58:09.230
Best way to support the show is sharing with friends and family. All relevant links at cieldispeche.com.

713
00:58:09.470 --> 00:58:11.870
Reminder to check out citadelwire.com.

714
00:58:11.870 --> 00:58:16.750
I have already next week, have lined up on the calendar, a conversation

715
00:58:17.390 --> 00:58:18.430
with Leah,

716
00:58:18.510 --> 00:58:23.734
who is a cofounder of Vexel. They do p to p Bitcoin exchanges without KYC.

717
00:58:23.734 --> 00:58:27.175
So that'd be a great conversation. Keep an eye out for that and

718
00:58:28.055 --> 00:58:34.695
play around with liquid. Scott is looking for feedback. He's looking for more users, more people playing around with these things. I think all of it can be helpful.

719
00:58:35.570 --> 00:58:42.920
While we are in these bear market, it's always great to just dive into the tech and get your feet wet. And there's no better time than today.

720
00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:47.080
Thank you, Scott. Thanks, Matt.

721
00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:50.280
Thank you, Freaks. Stay humble, StackSats. Peace.