CD189: MONEYBADGER - BITCOIN PAYMENTS IN SOUTH AFRICA

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 01/23/2026 19:09:24
Duration: 4331.259
Channels: 1

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Happy Bitcoin Friday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive

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oh, it's not an interactive live show anymore.

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The show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion. It's kind of interactive. I love your comments, freaks, when you leave comments on Fountain and your favorite Nostrap. I really like Primal.

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So keep your feedback coming, but I've really been enjoying this stretch of audio only

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non live shows. I'll tell you freaks. Once you are used to dealing with

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massively large video files

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and you can just focus just on audio and have a much smaller file, it is so much better to work with. And I think the conversations have been very high signal. So I hope you have been appreciating them

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as always dispatch has no ads or sponsors.

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Our incentives are aligned. We're living the value for value dream. I'm here for you guys. You guys are here for me.

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I'm not gonna give you shows just because my sponsors need shows to happen four times a week. We'll only do shows when it's interesting and when there's actually something valuable to talk about.

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And I think we have a really great topic this week. But anyway, before we get started, huge shout out to all the freaks who continue to support the show using their hard earned Bitcoin.

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Our largest app last week was Mav 21

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with 50,000 sats. He said, banger title. Thank you, Mav 21. I appreciate you appreciating the title because I

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got a lot of pride calling and stealing Satoshi Satoshis. I think it's one of my best titles humbly. Freaks.

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I'm not on YouTube anymore. Fuck YouTube. Trying to live the dream.

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Though, obviously, the lead of my Twitter, Noster only.

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So share with your friends and family. It really does help. Still dispatch.com.

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All the relevant links. Okay, freaks.

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I got a great show up. I have to tell you when it is. Right now, it is Friday,

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January

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23

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at seventeen hundred UTC.

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The block height is nine three three five four two.

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Sats per dollar is eleven

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twelve Sats per dollar. And the current price is $89,928

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per Bitcoin.

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This will be released in the next couple of hours because I do not like sitting on shows. Okay, freaks. We have

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my new friend Carol here from

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South Africa that I had the pleasure of meeting a few weeks ago. How's it going, Carol?

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Fantastic.

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Thanks for letting me on the show.

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Carol is the founder of Money Badger,

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and he is focused on bringing Bitcoin adoption to South Africa.

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Think your

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perspective is fascinating. I think what you built out there is incredibly impressive, particularly

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coming from the American mindset where we're not seeing much day to day usage of Bitcoin as money. What is Money Badger?

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Money Badger is a mission, but the mission is to make Bitcoin money.

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In other words, medium of exchange

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would be what's important for us. Yeah. So I think something that you mentioned is that coming from The US, maybe it's we get actually get a lot of critique

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for what we're doing. But in South Africa, there's there's some real needs that we're trying to address with Bitcoin as something that moves. That's something that's not just static and sitting in a wallet.

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I love it.

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But specifically,

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specifically Money Badger is focused on

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the merchant side. Correct?

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Money Badger is a merchant services provider. So it's a company commercial entity,

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central centralized service provider that serves the merchant. So it offers Bitcoin and lightning payments acceptance for merchants, as well as some other things like,

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sending out with treasury management and sending

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funds to suppliers,

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remittances.

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Do you do you see

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well, so so at high level high level,

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Money Badger lets me I can

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can basically go, as a user, I can go to a grocery store and just pay with Bitcoin.

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Yeah, look, Now the grocery store,

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yeah, go on. You go. No, high level, that's the goal. The idea is that we want you to be able to live your life on a Bitcoin standard in South Africa today.

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That's it.

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You need to be able to walk into any shop

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and spend Bitcoin. You should be able to cover the basics as well as any other expenses that you want to incur, like

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travel, electronics, whatever.

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The idea is that essentially

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we want to make South Africa like a Bitcoin Mecca. That's what we're trying to do. And we've come a long way.

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So how many merchants do you have enabled right now?

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So I know there's If you distinguish between a merchant and a shop, so one merchant may have many physical shops, there's at least 650,000,

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650,000

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physical locations that you can go to.

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And these range from very small

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to

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very large. So like two of the major filling station chains will accept Bitcoin. Some of them biggest

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grocery retailers.

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Then from there, everything in between.

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50,000 shops. And so filling stations is a gas station, right?

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A gas station, yeah, exactly. Yeah, Just translating for the Americans. Yeah.

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One thing to point out is that the majority of these don't even know that they're accepting Bitcoin.

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So what we've done is we've basically retrofitted

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their existing

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payments solutions that they already have with their existing payment providers.

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And we integrated

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Lightning into these payment providers as a feature.

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You've met them you've met them where they're at. So how does that

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well, first of all, you should be incredibly proud of 650,000

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locations. This is like our wildest dreams in America. I

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would kill for that type of outcome here. So you should be very proud of that. That is an amazing level of traction. And I do think the key is that you met the merchants where they're at. So how does that work?

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Is the merchant so one of your big ones is Pick n Pay, right? Which is like a general it's like a general store, right? It's like almost like a

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Was it like a supermarket plus other things?

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Yeah. Look, I think that we do feel proud about what we've achieved so far. Still a long way to go,

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but

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we've also just gotten very lucky.

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So

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essentially what's

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played in our favor is that in South Africa,

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there was already a number of

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payment providers

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that's QR enabled, QR code.

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Right. And they already had massive distribution. So we

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basically came into an environment where there was already

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a way for us to connect to a vast set of merchants without having to sign each one up individually.

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The majority So you're not of actually going in, you're not going into Pick n Pay, like you don't have, do you have a relationship with Pick n Pay or is it almost like

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Pay Pay is different. Different. You're using their QR code?

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Pick n Pay knows. So Pick n Pay is a special case.

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They're our first lucky break. They approached us initially and said, we have a mandate to add Bitcoin

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to our payments experience,

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which in and of itself, I think is incredible

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that the retailer from their side came to us. We didn't have to go to them and sell it. They already had executives

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that understood the potential. So they came to us.

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And so Pick n Pay in particular,

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they are well aware of the Bitcoin integration. Their staff are being trained. Their signage in stores. So that's already given us initial distribution as our as our first customer.

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They have a 1,600

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stores over across the country, and these range from

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like big hyper stores to small convenience stores at gas stations.

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And yeah, from there, we

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realized that, okay, cool, we've done well with Pick n Pay, but we need to go much, much further than that.

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Okay. But so

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Pick n Pay approached you and that I guess is the exception.

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Yeah. I mean, that is unprecedented.

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So But so how does that look? Yeah. Go on. Go on. Continue. No. I just mean, like, like I've said, we are proud of what we've done, but we've also gotten a few lucky breaks.

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Yeah. But so I wanna just like walk through

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is

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the Pick n Pay integration different than the other shops?

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Like, how

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does the Pick n Pay integration work?

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Right. So I think something

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to note, and this is also, we get a lot of critique for this. Something to note is that we don't

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provide

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the QR code to the retailer

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or to the shop. Typically what happens is that with their existing infrastructure, they have a mechanism to generate

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a shop specific or a merchant specific QR code.

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And so with Pick n Pay, what we've done is we've worked with their existing payment provider. They manage

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the payments flow from generating the code, providing the basket information, and then accepting the payment.

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And we've done the exact same thing with

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at least four other payment providers.

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And each of them have a merchant base. So essentially, it kind of works the same for all merchants.

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There's

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a merchant, there's a merchant payment provider,

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that payment provider generates a merchant specific QR code.

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And then our challenge would be to bridge that

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non Lightning QR code

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to a Lightning invoice and ultimately to a Lightning wallet

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to complete the payment.

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So

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the user has to be using what the Money Badger app or something, and they're scanning this QR code that's not a Lightning invoice, right?

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Initially, that was the solution.

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So we realized that

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to ask a Lightning Wallet

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or even multiple Lightning Wallets to add support for proprietary QR codes is a big ask. Nobody wants that. That's very controversial. But what we did in the interim was to

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publish

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our own QR code scanner called the Money Badger QR code scanner or the Money Badger app.

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And that scanner

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can read a proprietary QR code from the merchant,

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and then it can generate a lightning invoice, can generate a BALT 11 invoice, and then it can launch your preferred lightning wallet.

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That's clever. I like that. So you so you don't actually the user's not locked into like, quote unquote, the money badger wallet.

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It's actually just a app that is basically translating

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to any compile, any lightning rod. They're all compatible as by default.

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That's a good way to put it. It's like Google translate or, okay, know Google is not a,

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you don't like Google, but like, it's like a translation application that translates the project QR code into a bot 11, and it works fine. So what it does is it lets you use any Lightning Wallet, even

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if it support QR code scanning, it doesn't matter. So you can use any Lightning Wallet. But we did find that people

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kept asking us to avoid

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having to install a secondary application.

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They just want to use the lighting wallet.

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So the question is, is it possible to scan and pay

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with a,

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you know, generic lighting wallet at the proprietary merchant QR code?

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Yeah. So, I mean, I mean, that makes look, I think this is to me, this is the coolest part about what you've done is because,

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you know, a lot of people I

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it's probably not unique to this industry, but I'm neck. I've been neck deep in Bitcoin for a while. And a lot of people just try it.

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There's always theoretically,

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this better option or this perfect option or something.

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And what I love about what you've done is it's just so pragmatic. It's just like, okay, these are the tools we have today. I have to meet the merchant where they're at.

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And I can provide users who actually have the need to spend Bitcoin and want to spend Bitcoin a relatively easy way to do this. So when when you do the

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translation,

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so to speak, presumably,

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the user is then paying you in Bitcoin paying money badger and Bitcoin, then money badger is converting that

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to South African,

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what is rand, I think is your currency? Rand. Converting it to fiat and then

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you're transferring the fiat to the merchant, right?

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Exactly. Yeah, because we slot into their existing

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settlement flow.

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They have accounting systems that set up

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for fiat settlement. They've got reconciliation systems that set up for that. And typically, like with these corporates, if you try to sell them Bitcoin payments, the CFO

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or the financial officer would be the first to object and say, well, we don't want any non fiat related accounting on the books. It's just gonna be too complicated.

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It's gonna be too costly.

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So one of the sells is that no, actually,

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there's no impact on your accounting.

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There's no special considerations

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for non fiat balances on the books. Everything just plugs in seamlessly,

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and we're part of the existing flow of funds. So existing settlement flow. So, yes, we receive the Bitcoin, firelighting, we're on our own node, and then we convert it into local fiat and settle the merchant. And obviously, they want an exact amount. They want an exact fiat amount. So we'll take some volatility risk on the exchange. But luckily, this being Lightning,

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everything tends to kind of complete within about thirty seconds. So volatility as a function of time over a short period of time, volatility is always low.

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Makes sense to me. And then presumably you're taking,

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are you taking a flat fee in that conversion? Is that the business model?

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So the commercial model,

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as a merchant provider, we want to charge the merchant. And so essentially we kind of have a two component

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model whereby we have a very low transaction fee. So the idea is that for the merchant, it should be competitive

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against guardrails.

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Merchants hate paying all these interchange fees. And then typically there's some fixed

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fee component as well.

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So the commercial model is pretty straightforward, and the idea is that we try to avoid

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charging the consumer because obviously we can load the spread, and that is a question we get a lot. Do you load a margin of the spread?

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And for a number of reasons, we don't want to do that. We So don't wanna charge a consumer because the consumer is actually not a client.

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If they were our client, then there's all kinds of additional compliance

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stuff that goes with that. So what we do is we add the

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exchanges fee essentially into the rate.

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We need to cover the exchange or the liquidation fee

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because that's a cost to us. But ultimately, we try not to charge consumer to merchant service and the merchant pays for the privilege.

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But I don't follow. Aren't a bunch of these merchants, they don't even know that you're

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enabling Bitcoin payments?

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That's a good question. So in the case of Pick n Pay, that's a direct relationship. We have a direct commercial agreement. We've got our own rates,

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negotiated with them. In most of the other cases where we work via their existing payment service providers, we have a deal with the payment service provider.

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And so that is that is a feature or an option that they on sell to their to their customer base.

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And they set the pricing on what the merchant does. Whichever, like, whichever, whatever solution the merchant is using for their Fiat QR codes,

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you have a relationship with that processor

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and you Exactly. Can charge

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So essentially we are like a little plugin that sits on the existing payment processor that can just enable Lightning payments via the network.

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I love this. That's awesome.

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And by the way, I'm sure there's plenty of people that are saying like, you should, I don't know, have there been a bunch of people that say you should release a Money Badger Lightning wallet?

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We're not gonna do that,

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and it's not necessary. So I think something I wanted to

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answer is the question from earlier, is it possible to do this with any Lightning Wallet?

218
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Yeah. So we're good friends with the guys from Blink Wallet. Do you know the Blink Wallet people?

219
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Yeah, Blink's awesome, El Salvador. Yeah, and Blink's very popular in South Africa. It's one of those community wallets that seem to get decent traction.

220
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So Yeah, their big one to the freaks is they're

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the

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ones who built and power now Bitcoin Beach wallet in El Exactly. It is rebranded. Bitcoin Beach became Blink Wallet, I think.

223
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Well,

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now, like, the parent company is Blink Wallet.

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Right. Blink Wallet powers all these individual community wallets, one of them being Bitcoin Beach Wallet.

226
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The idea is basically, like, community leaders are running a multisig

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that's holding the majority of funds. So it's still custody, but it's like at least it's your local community and at least it's multisig, so a single person can't rug you. And then there are custodial funds on a lightning wallet, but hopefully, ideally in the ideal scenario,

228
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there's less there because that is by default single sig because multi sig lightning is just not there.

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But anyway, go on. And by the way, just before you go on, my advice was don't launch a money passer wallet. I just feel like a lot of people Like, I think one of the cool parts is that you don't have a wallet because running a Look, wallet is a

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of

231
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before Money Badger, I built a Bitcoin exchange called Luno, L U N O.

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And

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I learned the hard way that custodying

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people's funds

235
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is a massive pain.

236
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It's basically hell. Yep. You don't wanna do that. So I don't ever, ever, ever want to custody anybody's funds.

237
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But again, except my own But anyway, interrupted you, Blink.

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A lot of people have been using Blink Wallet in South Africa. So, yeah, so we went to Blink as one

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of these very popular wallets in South Africa and we said, guys, what if we

240
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provided

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an API

242
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so that the Blink wallet can do the same thing as the Money Badger

243
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translating app?

244
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So that we can build the translation feature straight into Blink,

245
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And then Blink can scan a Pick n Pay or other merchant

246
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QR code and retrieve the Lightning invoice

247
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without this

248
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secondary app,

249
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without the sort of intermediary application. And we try to convince them that this is a good idea, They were having none of it because then they had to add a dependency.

250
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That's like very controversial if you need to add this

251
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regional dependency to a global

252
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wallet code base. But then one of the Blink wallet developers actually came up with a clever solution that avoids third party APIs entirely,

253
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where they said, well, if we use

254
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Lightning addresses in a clever way, we can talk about how that works. But basically if you use Lightning addresses in a very clever way,

255
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then we can use open source specifications,

256
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open source protocols.

257
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We don't have to add any third party APIs

258
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and the Blink Wallet can do what the Money Badger application or the translator does without any dependencies.

259
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So initially when they explained this to me, thought, well, that's I don't know if that's going to work, but we did a proof of concept, we implemented it, and then it turned out that it actually works really well. So you can now scan with Blink Wallet and pay directly at Pick n Pay. No need for a money badger third party application.

260
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That's awesome. So presumably,

261
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I mean, the the

262
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negative of lightning out, Jaris Allen URL, is that you have to have a separate server that's serving up invoices.

263
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But presumably in this situation,

264
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it's actually an advantage

265
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where I'm assuming

266
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you have some kind of fixed Lightning address integrated

267
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into

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the

269
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into the proprietary QR code and they're pinging the URL,

270
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they're pinging the

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server and then they're pulling

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what, a different, a special invoice or something?

273
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So the way it works, the

274
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one controversial change, so this is less controversial than adding API, but the one controversial change that is still needed in the wallet

275
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is that it needs to do a pattern match

276
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on the QR code.

277
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So essentially it needs to look at the QR code data and it know needs

278
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that this is a

279
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QR code for merchant that Money Badger supports.

280
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And so in practice, what that means is typically with a Pick n Pay QR code, the string Pick n Pay is inside of the code data. So it's very easy to identify Pick n Pay QR code. And then

281
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the way that the information is transmitted to Money Badger

282
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is that the wallet can now know because it's a Pick n Pay QR code and it knows the Money Badger domain.

283
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It can use the QR code data

284
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as the user portion of the Lightning address. And then obviously the server portion would be Money Badger.

285
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So with the simple pattern recognition and a match, you can craft a special lighting address. That's a dynamic address. So it's a single use address essentially.

286
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Single use address for that one QR code.

287
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And then it can retrieve the bot 11 from the money badger server.

288
00:22:49.965 --> 00:22:54.764
That's awesome. I mean, it's basically an API. It's just like an open standards API.

289
00:22:55.085 --> 00:22:56.845
Yeah. Well, it's non API.

290
00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:04.380
That's the cool thing is that it uses open standards, existing open standards to retrieve Bot 11 invoices for proprietary QR codes.

291
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And yeah, I

292
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have seen some comments from developers that

293
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are upset with us. They're like, you know, money badger is just doing their thing. They're kind of like stretching

294
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the definitions of what the spec says.

295
00:23:19.485 --> 00:23:26.470
And I kind of agree. Look, I know it's little bit of a cowboy thing that we're doing, but at the end of the day, this means is

296
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we now have, I think something like five Lightning wallets that can scan and pay South African stores

297
00:23:33.030 --> 00:23:35.990
natively. So you don't have to install the Money Badger application.

298
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And there's no third party APIs.

299
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No, I love this. It's pragmatic as hell. It's

300
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a bit hacky,

301
00:23:45.535 --> 00:23:48.335
I also like the most useful tools in Bitcoin.

302
00:23:48.975 --> 00:23:58.889
The most useful tools in Bitcoin are a bit hacky if you're trying to live on Bitcoin. Like I, like in America, for instance, right? We like we're buying gift cards,

303
00:24:00.010 --> 00:24:11.155
where there's a service called to fiat number two f I a f I a t to fiat, where it's like a 6% fee and I can get like a real reloadable

304
00:24:11.155 --> 00:24:12.595
prepaid visa.

305
00:24:12.835 --> 00:24:14.755
You know, there is hacks all the way down.

306
00:24:15.315 --> 00:24:18.835
And this is a as far as hacks go, this is like a pretty clean,

307
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.559
clever way of doing it. I mean, I

308
00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:26.080
chop props to I like it. This is I think this is awesome.

309
00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:28.720
So Blink has integrated this.

310
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Mhmm. And so presumably,

311
00:24:31.760 --> 00:24:33.520
I mean, I have a little bit of

312
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insider knowledge. But I guess Zeus is also implementing this?

313
00:24:38.865 --> 00:24:42.625
Yeah. So I'm very excited about that. I actually

314
00:24:43.105 --> 00:24:44.304
did the first,

315
00:24:44.545 --> 00:24:48.625
or my first test in a live environment with the Zeus AlphaBold.

316
00:24:48.625 --> 00:24:58.190
So I know it's not live yet, but the Alpha build at least already supports money badger QR codes and Zoos being my favorite wallet. For me, it's very cool because that's

317
00:24:58.510 --> 00:25:06.495
definitely my wallet of choice. And I can use that, you know, natively. Can I use my favorite wallet and I can go out and buy whatever I want with Bitcoin Yeah? In South

318
00:25:09.935 --> 00:25:10.575
I mean,

319
00:25:11.775 --> 00:25:14.895
Evan's a huge I mean, Evan's basically

320
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a brother to me. Evan Kaludis, founder and maintainer of Zeus. I mean, he's also a ride or die like,

321
00:25:21.110 --> 00:25:22.549
there's one dispatch

322
00:25:22.870 --> 00:25:28.310
that I didn't host years ago, and it was Evan. Evan hosted it. Yesterday.

323
00:25:28.310 --> 00:25:35.705
So, I mean, it's pretty good. I mean, when we met, we met with our fellow South African friend, Craig Ross, Sparrow Wallet. And

324
00:25:36.505 --> 00:25:37.945
I mean, those are like,

325
00:25:38.665 --> 00:25:39.544
besides,

326
00:25:40.025 --> 00:25:45.409
besides, like, Bitcoin protocol stuff, like the two tools I rely on the most, like my family,

327
00:25:46.290 --> 00:25:51.970
absolutely depends on is Sparrow and Zeus. It's like Sparrow for savings and Zeus for,

328
00:25:52.290 --> 00:25:53.090
you know,

329
00:25:53.490 --> 00:25:56.130
day to day purchases and spending and whatnot mobile.

330
00:25:57.335 --> 00:26:03.255
Yeah, you can get quite far with those two things. And I had the privilege of meeting Evan in

331
00:26:03.495 --> 00:26:10.215
Mauritius at the last Bitcoin Africa conference. We both attended. And that's actually where I sort of pitched this

332
00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:14.989
mechanism to him. And the first thing that people say, or especially a developer

333
00:26:15.230 --> 00:26:24.914
says when I tell them about this, they're like, this is crazy, it's too hacky. And then until I show them the sort of the source code change, then they're like, maybe this is not so bad.

334
00:26:27.315 --> 00:26:33.634
So it's pretty minimal, I guess. Right? Like it's just your QR It's code quite minimal. You're just you're detecting the QR code locally.

335
00:26:33.795 --> 00:26:34.355
What?

336
00:26:34.995 --> 00:26:36.195
It's it's so minimal.

337
00:26:36.769 --> 00:26:39.330
Essentially, it's a pattern match and then just

338
00:26:39.649 --> 00:26:40.690
putting together

339
00:26:41.809 --> 00:26:44.609
the lightning address cleverly. So that's, I mean, that's a

340
00:26:45.090 --> 00:26:47.409
few lines, maybe like three lines of code.

341
00:26:48.210 --> 00:26:50.155
That's awesome. Normally.

342
00:26:50.795 --> 00:26:53.115
Some other wallets that have implemented this,

343
00:26:53.915 --> 00:26:54.794
Aqua.

344
00:26:56.555 --> 00:26:58.875
Of the well known ones, Aqua would be one.

345
00:26:59.755 --> 00:27:01.755
Other ones would be there's

346
00:27:01.915 --> 00:27:04.315
some experimental layer two wallets, Layers,

347
00:27:05.560 --> 00:27:06.440
blitz.

348
00:27:08.280 --> 00:27:11.880
Yeah. There's quite a few now that have implemented this. And look,

349
00:27:12.600 --> 00:27:17.080
I'll be my own biggest critic as well. This does introduce sort of this

350
00:27:18.135 --> 00:27:19.095
kind of like

351
00:27:19.415 --> 00:27:23.735
centralized service provider dependency in the flow of the QR scanner,

352
00:27:24.295 --> 00:27:26.455
but it's so light and minimal that if

353
00:27:26.855 --> 00:27:31.575
we were to disappear tomorrow, it would have no impact on anyone. And to

354
00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:36.499
remove that code would be very, very simple change as well, to be very light lift.

355
00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:39.059
I feel like for the convenience,

356
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:40.580
it's

357
00:27:40.580 --> 00:27:41.619
definitely worth it.

358
00:27:42.660 --> 00:27:44.020
And then presumably,

359
00:27:44.020 --> 00:27:49.664
I mean, I guess there's an argument that like, this is South Africa only, but I mean, presumably

360
00:27:51.025 --> 00:27:53.185
this is so open and interoperable

361
00:27:53.185 --> 00:27:53.745
that

362
00:27:54.065 --> 00:27:56.705
there could be like a money badger clone in

363
00:27:57.220 --> 00:27:58.980
Ghana or Argentina

364
00:27:58.980 --> 00:27:59.540
or that

365
00:28:00.100 --> 00:28:01.940
could use the same

366
00:28:02.260 --> 00:28:03.060
integration,

367
00:28:03.060 --> 00:28:03.620
no?

368
00:28:04.420 --> 00:28:06.340
That's my expectation is that we'll

369
00:28:07.540 --> 00:28:10.180
think this code path in the wallets and scanning

370
00:28:11.060 --> 00:28:17.274
code will expand to more and more providers like this. So for example, we know in Kenya, our good friends Tondo,

371
00:28:17.755 --> 00:28:25.830
they bridge into the M Pesa network. So everybody there has an M Pesa QR code. So a similar thing. It can be a very light

372
00:28:26.470 --> 00:28:37.429
change on the code base of the wallet, and then suddenly you can spend anywhere in Kenya. And like you said, Ghana is an option, possibly Latin America. There's a lot of places like Brazil, I know

373
00:28:38.150 --> 00:28:50.695
El Salvador, obviously. There's a lot of places with this QR mechanism where if you have the bridge and you have the mappings, you have a way to identify the code and match it to the bridge provider like Money Badger.

374
00:28:51.575 --> 00:28:53.335
Then it's very easy to

375
00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:57.030
do native payments with your Lightning Wallet of choice.

376
00:28:59.910 --> 00:29:03.590
So, I mean, just correct me if I'm wrong real quick. Tondo,

377
00:29:03.590 --> 00:29:07.350
I haven't had the pleasure of meeting them, but I've been watching their successes from afar.

378
00:29:07.845 --> 00:29:12.325
Meeting them yet, I hope to meet them in the future. They actually they have like

379
00:29:12.965 --> 00:29:20.085
they they're running their own custodial Lightning wallet, and then you're like loading up their app with SATs and then paying M Pesa invoices. Right?

380
00:29:21.290 --> 00:29:25.370
I'm not exactly sure about that. I think they also do this bridge.

381
00:29:25.370 --> 00:29:27.769
I could be completely wrong. And I'm

382
00:29:28.010 --> 00:29:32.010
revealing my ignorance. But as far as I understand with Tundra,

383
00:29:32.010 --> 00:29:34.650
you can also use your own lighting wallet of choice.

384
00:29:36.485 --> 00:29:41.845
I think you can get the lighting invoice and then pay it with any lighting wall. Mean, theoretically, why not?

385
00:29:43.685 --> 00:29:45.045
Right. So But I'm actually not

386
00:29:47.820 --> 00:29:49.019
so presumably,

387
00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:53.019
I mean, we're a couple we're like a couple small steps away from someone

388
00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:59.179
being able to just pay M Pesa with Zeus if Tondo

389
00:29:59.580 --> 00:30:02.515
integrates it this way. That's pretty cool. Yeah.

390
00:30:03.075 --> 00:30:07.395
I'm sure if if it's possible to identify an impasse QR code, then yes.

391
00:30:08.915 --> 00:30:17.340
They just basically have to run that. The harder part is probably on the Tondo side. Right? Because they have to run the whatever the LNU URL server that's dealing with,

392
00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:19.260
That's you know, is

393
00:30:21.179 --> 00:30:26.299
not really a problem for a centralized provider. If you're gonna have a server that's going to be up

394
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:32.195
20 fourseven, it's not a problem. The thing that differentiates what we're doing with Tondo is that

395
00:30:32.674 --> 00:30:34.114
they have this national

396
00:30:34.755 --> 00:30:37.075
standard, the M Pesa standard.

397
00:30:37.635 --> 00:30:40.594
Right, it's easier. And what that means, it's easier,

398
00:30:40.914 --> 00:30:44.195
but what it also means is that they don't really have a relationship

399
00:30:44.509 --> 00:30:45.949
with the merchant.

400
00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:50.269
It's like everybody has Mpeza. So if you can do an Mpeza bridge, it's

401
00:30:54.269 --> 00:30:59.870
like a neutral thing. Whereas what we're doing here, we don't have a national standard yet. Government's working on it,

402
00:31:00.725 --> 00:31:03.125
but we've got these commercial

403
00:31:03.125 --> 00:31:11.685
payment providers that have direct relationships with the merchants. We kind of have to support multiple QR standards, but we also get access to the merchant base.

404
00:31:16.340 --> 00:31:23.460
Yeah. I mean, like everything else in life, there's pros and cons. Right? I mean, it probably makes in a lot of ways makes integration easier for them,

405
00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:31.415
but also they have their own centralized dependency that if M Pesa wakes up one day and it's like, we're not gonna accept fee out payments from Tondo.

406
00:31:32.135 --> 00:31:32.775
Exactly.

407
00:31:33.575 --> 00:31:35.575
Then the whole system breaks.

408
00:31:36.215 --> 00:31:36.855
Yeah.

409
00:31:37.575 --> 00:31:40.295
Yeah. So I guess it's ultimately Okay. This is awesome. Of

410
00:31:40.820 --> 00:31:44.100
what what the trade offs are and, like,

411
00:31:44.180 --> 00:31:47.700
what we're willing to the acts we're willing to live with.

412
00:31:51.780 --> 00:31:53.140
Yeah. I will say that,

413
00:31:54.465 --> 00:31:55.985
I mean, 10/31,

414
00:31:55.985 --> 00:31:57.825
we're the largest investor in

415
00:31:57.905 --> 00:31:58.624
both

416
00:32:00.785 --> 00:32:02.225
strike and primal.

417
00:32:02.545 --> 00:32:05.905
So I will talk to Jack and million. I would love to see

418
00:32:07.190 --> 00:32:08.390
those wallets

419
00:32:08.390 --> 00:32:16.950
support this. Think that'd be great. It's fucking awesome. Would love to strike as a strike user being able to just walk into 650,000

420
00:32:16.950 --> 00:32:17.750
stores

421
00:32:18.150 --> 00:32:19.590
in South Africa,

422
00:32:20.105 --> 00:32:24.025
just scan a QR code and pay. That's wonderful. That's awesome.

423
00:32:24.585 --> 00:32:26.905
Do you have any stats on

424
00:32:27.625 --> 00:32:28.664
transaction

425
00:32:28.665 --> 00:32:29.544
volume?

426
00:32:29.545 --> 00:32:33.305
Volumes. Like how are you doing out there? Are people actually using it?

427
00:32:35.010 --> 00:32:35.570
So

428
00:32:36.850 --> 00:32:39.170
some people are using it. That was obviously,

429
00:32:39.570 --> 00:32:43.170
I think our biggest challenge actually that, I mean, a technical perspective,

430
00:32:43.490 --> 00:32:44.050
solutions

431
00:32:44.370 --> 00:32:45.810
to the technical problems,

432
00:32:45.810 --> 00:32:49.170
even on the business front, creating partnerships with these existing

433
00:32:49.695 --> 00:32:55.374
payment service providers, that's business development, we can do that. Ultimately, the question is,

434
00:32:55.615 --> 00:32:57.934
who's going to use this? And so one of the

435
00:32:58.575 --> 00:33:01.215
problems we had initially with Pick n Pay was

436
00:33:02.340 --> 00:33:03.059
how

437
00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:13.859
would we prove the concept to the executives? I mean, we can build it, but then the question is, will they come? And so we were kind of lucky because we've got these circular economies in South Africa. And one in particular

438
00:33:14.100 --> 00:33:19.184
is called Bitcoin Ekasi. I don't know if you know about Bitcoin Ekasi. They're modeled on Bitcoin Beach in El Salvador.

439
00:33:20.865 --> 00:33:21.745
Of course.

440
00:33:22.385 --> 00:33:23.025
Right.

441
00:33:23.345 --> 00:33:24.225
So they

442
00:33:24.545 --> 00:33:27.825
have this existing community of people that's

443
00:33:28.225 --> 00:33:30.304
earning and spending Bitcoin.

444
00:33:30.385 --> 00:33:30.865
And

445
00:33:31.600 --> 00:33:34.959
luckily we could approach them as alpha testers for the Pick n Pay

446
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.199
solution.

447
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:40.399
And they actually made a

448
00:33:40.879 --> 00:33:45.919
massive impression on the executives at Pick n Pay because they didn't expect anybody to use this

449
00:33:46.934 --> 00:33:47.735
immediately.

450
00:33:47.735 --> 00:33:49.975
And suddenly there was a whole community of people

451
00:33:50.294 --> 00:33:54.534
going to Pick n Pay buying a single banana, a single

452
00:33:54.855 --> 00:34:00.135
roll of bread. And suddenly they realized that there was something here that was actually showing potential

453
00:34:00.919 --> 00:34:03.320
to solve some of the problems, social

454
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:06.279
problems that we're facing in South Africa. So specifically

455
00:34:08.520 --> 00:34:11.160
people in that Mussel Bay Society,

456
00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:13.000
mainly they transact in cash.

457
00:34:13.704 --> 00:34:16.425
So they don't have access to credit card facilities.

458
00:34:16.425 --> 00:34:24.505
And so that has a bunch of problems. Like, you can't transact with cash very far. You can pretty much as far as you can extend your hand and people

459
00:34:24.665 --> 00:34:31.460
rob you for your cash. And suddenly there were people that could download an app, download the Blink wallet, and they can

460
00:34:31.780 --> 00:34:32.580
store

461
00:34:32.980 --> 00:34:33.780
money

462
00:34:34.180 --> 00:34:36.020
in this app that they've just downloaded.

463
00:34:36.180 --> 00:34:48.005
They don't need to go to a bank to open an account. Don't need to go stand in queue. And they can immediately start spending this money at some of the biggest stores and biggest retailers in the country. So when we showed this to the Pick n Pay executives,

464
00:34:48.005 --> 00:34:49.925
this is really what convinced them to

465
00:34:50.485 --> 00:34:57.205
push the project over the line and deploy it to all of their stores across the nation. And I think also ultimately what

466
00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:04.140
made it possible for us to partner with the other payment service providers. Because when we showed them this, they said, wow, there's some real

467
00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:05.740
potential yet to

468
00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:07.339
address real needs.

469
00:35:12.085 --> 00:35:17.365
And I didn't answer your question. You said, are people using this? So initially we had some initial uptake

470
00:35:17.685 --> 00:35:19.605
from these guys and it was small.

471
00:35:20.325 --> 00:35:21.045
Like in

472
00:35:22.085 --> 00:35:23.205
dollar terms,

473
00:35:23.285 --> 00:35:24.485
we did about

474
00:35:26.240 --> 00:35:27.520
$10,000

475
00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:28.800
a month. I said

476
00:35:29.040 --> 00:35:30.960
10 to $15,000 a month.

477
00:35:31.520 --> 00:35:34.880
And where we're at now is we're at approximately

478
00:35:35.520 --> 00:35:36.960
$200,000

479
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:38.640
$200,000

480
00:35:38.640 --> 00:35:39.119
monthly.

481
00:35:40.185 --> 00:35:41.225
That's about

482
00:35:42.665 --> 00:35:44.025
15,000

483
00:35:44.025 --> 00:35:44.985
transactions

484
00:35:44.985 --> 00:35:47.545
per quarter, 5,000 per month.

485
00:35:48.585 --> 00:35:50.745
So it's not a lot, but it's still

486
00:35:50.745 --> 00:35:51.785
a lot more than zero.

487
00:36:00.329 --> 00:36:04.010
But are you higher than that now? 5,000 transactions a month?

488
00:36:04.825 --> 00:36:10.505
Right now it's about 5,000 transactions a month. Initially when we started it was like a couple of 100.

489
00:36:11.865 --> 00:36:16.185
Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. So what 5,000 transactions a month did I

490
00:36:16.745 --> 00:36:20.825
by the way, freaks, one of the advantages of not running it live

491
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:32.000
is that you're going to get really great audio quality, even though our internet connection is poor. But it does mean that Carol is breaking up for me a little bit. So you said five

492
00:36:32.655 --> 00:36:33.215
transactions

493
00:36:33.695 --> 00:36:35.215
a month, about 200,000

494
00:36:35.215 --> 00:36:37.295
US dollars worth. Is that what you're saying?

495
00:36:38.495 --> 00:36:42.175
Would it be better if I switched to a different connection? I think maybe it'll

496
00:36:42.175 --> 00:36:42.975
be easier for you.

497
00:36:45.309 --> 00:36:50.190
I mean, you're welcome to switch to another connection if you want, but also you can just it's

498
00:36:50.190 --> 00:36:55.950
been decent. But the the cool part is is the audio is recorded locally and uploaded.

499
00:36:55.950 --> 00:36:58.190
So for the people listening, it sounds perfect.

500
00:36:59.825 --> 00:37:02.705
Okay, this is gonna be much better, I'm sure. Can you hear me now?

501
00:37:04.145 --> 00:37:05.345
Yeah, I can hear you.

502
00:37:07.025 --> 00:37:07.745
Right,

503
00:37:07.985 --> 00:37:09.025
okay. So

504
00:37:10.465 --> 00:37:12.145
just to get back to the stats,

505
00:37:13.940 --> 00:37:17.780
so the number of transactions that we're seeing right now is about 5,000

506
00:37:17.859 --> 00:37:18.740
monthly.

507
00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:21.299
The average,

508
00:37:21.299 --> 00:37:23.140
or let's call it the median

509
00:37:23.299 --> 00:37:24.819
transaction size

510
00:37:25.415 --> 00:37:27.095
is only about

511
00:37:27.734 --> 00:37:28.935
$18

512
00:37:29.335 --> 00:37:32.775
$18 or less. Most transactions are $18 or less.

513
00:37:33.494 --> 00:37:37.015
And then you get the average is a bit higher than that. It's about

514
00:37:38.180 --> 00:37:39.619
$43

515
00:37:39.779 --> 00:37:45.540
because you get a small number of people that's doing larger transactions. They're paying municipal bills. They're

516
00:37:46.180 --> 00:37:47.380
buying prepaid

517
00:37:47.380 --> 00:37:48.180
electricity

518
00:37:48.180 --> 00:37:49.619
and prepaid water,

519
00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:50.980
so utilities.

520
00:37:52.855 --> 00:37:56.695
And they are covering the basic needs, but it's like largest spend.

521
00:38:01.575 --> 00:38:03.575
I mean, I think that's awesome. So

522
00:38:05.600 --> 00:38:07.680
I mean, look, I think

523
00:38:10.560 --> 00:38:13.440
I think Bitcoin is I

524
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:15.600
prescribe to the theory

525
00:38:16.160 --> 00:38:23.415
that these things take time. It's like, where is the where are we in the adoption cycle? And I I don't I think there's only so much you can do to

526
00:38:24.135 --> 00:38:25.575
try and inorganically

527
00:38:25.575 --> 00:38:29.335
get people to spend Bitcoin. I think they'll spend Bitcoin when they're ready to.

528
00:38:29.654 --> 00:38:35.174
I think people that are all in on Bitcoin, it's very obvious why they would spend Bitcoin is because every

529
00:38:35.770 --> 00:38:41.610
everything they spend money on is is effectively a sale. I mean, if they only have Bitcoin in savings.

530
00:38:43.050 --> 00:38:45.050
And I think it's just like how how,

531
00:38:45.130 --> 00:38:51.845
like people mentally think about Bitcoin, like if they still have dollars, if they still have other Fiat, they're going to spend that first probably.

532
00:38:52.964 --> 00:38:54.965
But also a lot of it is I

533
00:38:58.085 --> 00:39:04.325
mean, I definitely depends on a country by country basis. I'm kind of curious in South Africa, do you have

534
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.520
obviously like lower income Bitcoin, a cause demographic

535
00:39:10.520 --> 00:39:13.560
is they're, they're earning in Bitcoin.

536
00:39:14.040 --> 00:39:17.320
All they have is Bitcoin. It makes sense that they're spending Bitcoin

537
00:39:17.640 --> 00:39:18.920
in terms of

538
00:39:19.775 --> 00:39:24.895
the higher net worth side of South Africa in the Bitcoin community. Because Bitcoin

539
00:39:24.895 --> 00:39:29.855
has a decent level of adoption per capita in the higher net worth sphere of South Africa.

540
00:39:32.190 --> 00:39:38.990
Traction there with people spending Bitcoin and how much of that has to do with government policy, tax policy, that type of thing?

541
00:39:40.030 --> 00:39:47.550
Yeah, that's quite a broad question. I think, like ultimately the question is who is spending Bitcoin? And in South Africa, who is spending Bitcoin in South Africa?

542
00:39:48.325 --> 00:39:48.965
So

543
00:39:49.285 --> 00:39:50.885
one of the things we've learned

544
00:39:51.365 --> 00:39:52.245
is that

545
00:39:53.605 --> 00:39:54.725
you get people

546
00:39:55.365 --> 00:39:56.485
with capital

547
00:39:56.565 --> 00:39:59.205
and they use that capital, this is fiat capital,

548
00:39:59.205 --> 00:40:00.085
to buy Bitcoin,

549
00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:01.480
right?

550
00:40:02.120 --> 00:40:03.640
When you buy Bitcoin,

551
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:06.040
that is the most valuable thing that you own.

552
00:40:06.680 --> 00:40:16.964
You hold onto that for dear life. You don't ever sell it, you don't ever spend it. Logically, when people come to you and they say, Oh, but you should be trying to spend it, you should be trying to use it. You're like, there's no ways.

553
00:40:17.285 --> 00:40:19.605
There's no ways. I bought this Bitcoin,

554
00:40:19.845 --> 00:40:24.805
I'm gonna keep it forever basically. And that's one mindset. And then

555
00:40:25.204 --> 00:40:32.710
for me to try and convince somebody like that to spend their Bitcoin or to say, hey, look, I'm building this service for you. It just doesn't make sense.

556
00:40:33.670 --> 00:40:34.470
But then

557
00:40:34.869 --> 00:40:43.270
you get these guys in Ikazi, Bitcoin Ikazi, they serve coaches, but they don't have any capital. So they don't have any money or Fiat to buy Bitcoin

558
00:40:43.944 --> 00:40:44.985
to get started,

559
00:40:45.625 --> 00:40:47.145
but they do earn Bitcoin.

560
00:40:47.224 --> 00:40:49.465
So like you said, that's all they have to spend.

561
00:40:50.025 --> 00:40:52.025
And if that is all that you have to spend,

562
00:40:52.424 --> 00:40:53.305
the equation

563
00:40:54.184 --> 00:41:00.650
like completely flips on its head. And instead of not wanting to spend the Bitcoin that you bought that's super valuable,

564
00:41:00.970 --> 00:41:04.170
now you're strongly incentivized to go out and seek merchants

565
00:41:04.170 --> 00:41:07.290
that will accept your Bitcoin because that's all that you have to spend.

566
00:41:07.690 --> 00:41:10.890
And so we do see that. We see in our data, we see, for example,

567
00:41:11.655 --> 00:41:12.295
the

568
00:41:12.455 --> 00:41:17.975
number one store for Bitcoin spend in South Africa would be the pick and pay near Bitcoin Akasi.

569
00:41:18.455 --> 00:41:20.855
Number one every single month, most transactions,

570
00:41:20.855 --> 00:41:24.695
most value, most volume. But then as for, like you said, sort of the

571
00:41:25.590 --> 00:41:28.870
demographic of people that do have capital that have been buying Bitcoin,

572
00:41:29.670 --> 00:41:34.630
the spend that we see would be from sort of OGs, people that have bought Bitcoin long ago,

573
00:41:35.030 --> 00:41:42.715
they've seen significant gains in the value of their Bitcoin to such a degree that it probably makes up the majority, if not a 100% of

574
00:41:43.595 --> 00:41:44.395
their wealth.

575
00:41:44.955 --> 00:41:50.315
And then they kind of end up in a similar situation where sure, Bitcoin is the most valuable thing that you own,

576
00:41:50.715 --> 00:41:58.690
but it's also the only valuable thing that you own. And again, you're in a situation where that's what you have to spend. So it's kind of like these two extremes on the spectrum.

577
00:41:59.410 --> 00:42:02.369
And then in between, you'll have like

578
00:42:02.849 --> 00:42:15.675
people with radical mindsets that just believe in Bitcoin as freedom money and believe that when they promote the spending of Bitcoin, it's a promotion for freedom. So you get people doing it for ideological reasons as well. But I think like

579
00:42:15.995 --> 00:42:21.515
where we're at right now is we've got this system where it serves kind of like two extreme ends of the spectrum.

580
00:42:22.270 --> 00:42:26.190
And the question is, can we kind of like start growing inwards and meet

581
00:42:26.430 --> 00:42:27.550
somewhere in the middle?

582
00:42:29.710 --> 00:42:33.070
That makes sense to me. So how are you thinking about that growing inwards?

583
00:42:34.765 --> 00:42:36.605
That is very tricky. So

584
00:42:37.085 --> 00:42:39.085
ultimately to change behavior,

585
00:42:39.085 --> 00:42:41.485
you need incentives, you need to provide incentives.

586
00:42:42.445 --> 00:42:45.325
So we've been experimenting with unique incentives with

587
00:42:47.245 --> 00:42:49.085
centralized wallet providers offering

588
00:42:49.790 --> 00:42:50.830
significant

589
00:42:50.830 --> 00:42:51.710
discounts

590
00:42:51.790 --> 00:42:56.190
in the form of cash backs. We're working with the merchants to offer unique

591
00:42:56.430 --> 00:42:57.310
rewards

592
00:42:57.390 --> 00:42:59.870
to Bitcoin spenders because they're saving on

593
00:43:00.750 --> 00:43:14.235
fees, on card fees. But to be totally honest, I don't have an answer for you. Like trying to convince somebody that just got into Bitcoin, that just purchased some Bitcoin, or maybe in the last couple of years bought some Bitcoin to spend it is very difficult, maybe impossible.

594
00:43:16.715 --> 00:43:17.595
Yeah, I don't know.

595
00:43:20.370 --> 00:43:29.010
Yeah. And I don't know if like offering them 3% stats back is actually going to move the needle. I'm talking about 20 to 50% that we've done. Oh, wow. Okay.

596
00:43:29.730 --> 00:43:31.410
Yeah. That might do it.

597
00:43:31.730 --> 00:43:34.930
Yeah, that, that does it, but it only lasts as long as the promotion.

598
00:43:36.795 --> 00:43:39.355
What is the tax policy like? Do you cap

599
00:43:39.595 --> 00:43:40.555
gains in

600
00:43:42.075 --> 00:43:43.355
South Africa? We do

601
00:43:44.155 --> 00:43:47.115
have cap gains. It's one of those things where I feel like

602
00:43:48.030 --> 00:43:49.550
a politician would speak

603
00:43:50.190 --> 00:43:52.270
of a social compact,

604
00:43:52.910 --> 00:44:00.990
but then in fact, if you go look at the way that our rules are set up, there's no social compact. So specifically how it works is

605
00:44:02.375 --> 00:44:05.015
we have an initial exclusion. So on the first

606
00:44:05.335 --> 00:44:06.775
R40,000,

607
00:44:06.775 --> 00:44:09.335
so that would be 2 and a half thousand dollars

608
00:44:09.895 --> 00:44:12.375
of capital gains, you pay no tax.

609
00:44:13.095 --> 00:44:13.895
And so

610
00:44:14.490 --> 00:44:20.170
if you're in this mode where you convert all of your earnings into Bitcoin every single month

611
00:44:20.570 --> 00:44:25.450
and you spend the portion that you need to sustain yourself and you save the rest,

612
00:44:26.650 --> 00:44:27.210
fluctuation

613
00:44:27.770 --> 00:44:31.375
in price, and so therefore the gain in capital

614
00:44:31.535 --> 00:44:39.615
value is actually fairly low. So actually for most people, your Bitcoin spending falls below this threshold of 2 and a half thousand dollars

615
00:44:39.934 --> 00:44:41.214
of capital gains.

616
00:44:42.255 --> 00:44:43.694
If you're not also liquidating

617
00:44:44.180 --> 00:44:46.260
long term savings for bigger purchases.

618
00:44:48.340 --> 00:44:50.420
But this threshold

619
00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:52.580
has been the same for

620
00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:53.940
twelve years.

621
00:44:56.260 --> 00:45:00.745
And so it's that same old story that not only is inflation

622
00:45:01.385 --> 00:45:02.345
eroding

623
00:45:02.345 --> 00:45:03.065
the

624
00:45:03.465 --> 00:45:04.985
value of your savings,

625
00:45:06.185 --> 00:45:09.625
but it's also eroding these thresholds.

626
00:45:09.705 --> 00:45:13.400
Should, I mean, over thirteen years that needs to be like $10,000

627
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:18.760
threshold. So every single day that you stay in the fiat system, you're just worse off.

628
00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:23.400
Not only because your money's getting worth less, but also the thresholds that should apply,

629
00:45:25.655 --> 00:45:27.575
they just erode. So

630
00:45:28.055 --> 00:45:39.095
yeah, look, that's a very long story, but the short answer is we've got capital gains. There's some thresholds. If you stay under it, you can essentially spend Bitcoin without any tax implication, but it's complicated.

631
00:45:40.990 --> 00:45:42.750
Yeah. I mean, actually, I

632
00:45:43.390 --> 00:45:46.349
think I disagree with the majority of Americans that

633
00:45:47.549 --> 00:46:01.415
the current cap gains policy is the reason people don't spend Bitcoin. I don't think that's the reason. I mean, I think It's it's an illogical reason. I think a lot of people use it as an excuse, but it's not logical. Because if you're paying cap gains, then you're already winning.

634
00:46:02.295 --> 00:46:04.375
Yeah. You're only paying on profit.

635
00:46:04.615 --> 00:46:07.494
It means that you were better off holding Bitcoin than dollars in the first place.

636
00:46:08.310 --> 00:46:10.150
You're winning. I do think I,

637
00:46:10.550 --> 00:46:12.630
yeah, I philosophically think that

638
00:46:12.950 --> 00:46:16.870
capital gains tax is really savings tax. And particularly

639
00:46:16.870 --> 00:46:18.230
when you couple that

640
00:46:18.790 --> 00:46:35.125
with manufactured inflation on the dollar side or the Fiat side is taxes are already predatory, but it makes it even more of a predatory tax. And we should just remove cap gains on all assets, not just Bitcoin. Like I it's not a Bitcoin specific thought I have, but I do not think that's the reason

641
00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:40.940
that Americans aren't really spending Bitcoin at scale. I think it's more of an adoption thing.

642
00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:45.740
And how like where Bitcoin sits in your quote unquote,

643
00:46:47.420 --> 00:46:55.425
or life, right? If Bitcoin is your savings, then you're gonna spend Bitcoin, you're gonna wanna spend Bitcoin. And also credit cards suck, like I'd rather spend Bitcoin. It's great.

644
00:46:55.985 --> 00:46:57.905
It's just much better UX.

645
00:46:59.505 --> 00:47:00.385
Yeah, the UX,

646
00:47:00.950 --> 00:47:11.190
one thing on that, we get a lot of people asking for tap to pay. They're saying, you know, the QR code scanning is awkward. If the lighting isn't great in the store, then there's a reflection, it takes a bit of time.

647
00:47:12.965 --> 00:47:17.205
There's a lot of videos of people scanning QR codes and then completing

648
00:47:17.605 --> 00:47:19.605
the Bitcoin Lightning transaction

649
00:47:20.005 --> 00:47:25.365
faster than if you were to use tap to pay. So even with tap to pay, there's some authorization.

650
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:30.380
With Lightning, there's no authorization because there's no communication that's necessary

651
00:47:30.619 --> 00:47:35.660
with like the bank and anything like that. It's Lightning native protocol and the settlement

652
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:38.940
completes, like the entire settlement chain complete in

653
00:47:39.385 --> 00:47:40.585
less than a second.

654
00:47:43.385 --> 00:47:44.505
I I do get the

655
00:47:47.225 --> 00:47:48.345
like tap to pay.

656
00:47:49.225 --> 00:47:58.710
The unfortunate reality is at least on the iPhone side, I mean, without Apple's permission, it's just a non starter and not gonna happen. But on the Android side, it's doable.

657
00:47:59.430 --> 00:48:07.750
If there's demand for it, then it will come. Tap to pay is just simply another communications mechanism. It's not a fundamental infrastructure limitation.

658
00:48:08.265 --> 00:48:14.904
So if there's enough people that demand it, eventually it will come. And so we are seeing organic growth. We're seeing about doubling

659
00:48:14.904 --> 00:48:17.305
or exponential growth year on year.

660
00:48:17.545 --> 00:48:25.260
And that's great. But coming from a small base, it's gonna take a bit of time until we reach sort of critical mass where we can demand that

661
00:48:25.660 --> 00:48:27.740
point of sale distribution for

662
00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:29.099
a nationwide

663
00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:30.620
retailer adds

664
00:48:31.020 --> 00:48:33.740
support for what's needed to do tap to pay for Bitcoin.

665
00:48:35.445 --> 00:48:36.005
Right.

666
00:48:36.245 --> 00:48:39.125
Yeah. That's actually like requires like hardware infrastructure.

667
00:48:39.685 --> 00:48:42.005
Exactly. That's expensive and slow,

668
00:48:42.645 --> 00:48:49.365
but it's gonna have to is why more they're using, I mean, that's why they're using QR codes for their fee out payments in the first place. QR is easy.

669
00:48:50.470 --> 00:48:56.790
But even tap to pay Bitcoin will come. We just need to be patient. Everybody's just a little bit too impatient.

670
00:48:58.230 --> 00:48:59.910
Yeah. Lower your time preference.

671
00:49:00.150 --> 00:49:01.350
Lower your time preference.

672
00:49:02.565 --> 00:49:05.925
No, we're doing great. The Bitcoin movement is doing fantastic.

673
00:49:05.925 --> 00:49:07.765
Has beaten all expectations.

674
00:49:07.765 --> 00:49:11.285
At least all of my expectations over the many years that I've been

675
00:49:12.005 --> 00:49:21.660
obsessed with Bitcoin. You also mentioned that you do like treasury management and what, like cross border payments. How much are you finding real traction on that side?

676
00:49:23.580 --> 00:49:25.420
So I think that's

677
00:49:25.420 --> 00:49:32.405
something new for us. What we found is that these merchants that we're now already serving, so that we're already processing incoming Bitcoin

678
00:49:32.645 --> 00:49:37.125
payments for them. In some cases, they have international suppliers,

679
00:49:37.605 --> 00:49:39.125
that they need to pay. And so

680
00:49:39.445 --> 00:49:42.725
they're definitely more interested in kind of stable coin kind of stuff.

681
00:49:43.370 --> 00:49:44.570
So they would have

682
00:49:45.210 --> 00:49:50.410
maybe the cost of their sale is largely denominated in USD because they're importing stuff paying in USD

683
00:49:50.730 --> 00:49:55.210
so that they want to split revenue coming in into sort of the USD portion

684
00:49:55.530 --> 00:49:56.410
for the costs.

685
00:49:58.215 --> 00:50:02.135
And then obviously use that USD to pay the supplier. But that's kind of

686
00:50:04.135 --> 00:50:06.215
I don't know. For me, it's kinda boring.

687
00:50:06.695 --> 00:50:08.535
Consumer payments to me is more interesting.

688
00:50:10.250 --> 00:50:14.330
And I think we only have sort of a limited window of opportunity to actually

689
00:50:15.690 --> 00:50:20.490
push this narrative of Bitcoin as money. I don't think we have a lot of time. I think there's

690
00:50:21.130 --> 00:50:23.770
the powers that be are

691
00:50:23.025 --> 00:50:24.065
conspiring

692
00:50:24.065 --> 00:50:24.625
to

693
00:50:25.184 --> 00:50:27.265
make it more and more difficult over time.

694
00:50:30.464 --> 00:50:32.305
Right. I mean, in their ideal scenario,

695
00:50:35.200 --> 00:50:39.840
Bitcoin would be relegated to like a store of value only type of

696
00:50:40.160 --> 00:50:42.320
controlled asset, and then you'd use

697
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:44.960
USD tokens or,

698
00:50:47.214 --> 00:50:48.494
basically CBDCs,

699
00:50:48.494 --> 00:50:50.015
just privately run CBDCs

700
00:50:50.015 --> 00:50:51.535
for payments.

701
00:50:52.095 --> 00:50:53.775
How do you think I presume

702
00:50:54.095 --> 00:50:57.295
Tether is the majority of stablecoin

703
00:50:57.295 --> 00:51:08.000
usage, USD token usage in South Africa. What is that situation like? And how do you think about it? Is there a lot of you, is there significantly more usage of Tether than Bitcoin

704
00:51:08.160 --> 00:51:09.280
in South Africa?

705
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:18.785
So for me, one interesting stat. So we have about four types of wallet integrations. One would be Lightning, and then we've got three that's the major

706
00:51:18.944 --> 00:51:28.065
local wallet providers. We only do off chain transactions. So that either has to be layer two or it needs to be like proprietary wallet API.

707
00:51:29.025 --> 00:51:29.744
So

708
00:51:30.500 --> 00:51:41.540
what that means is that we not only process incoming Bitcoin, we only process incoming Bitcoin on Lightning, but for these other wallets, we can do whatever they support. And so what we see in the data is that

709
00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:46.465
about two thirds of the transactions that we process is actually Bitcoin,

710
00:51:47.345 --> 00:51:50.785
which is an anomaly. I think anywhere else in the world it would be

711
00:51:51.265 --> 00:51:51.985
probably

712
00:51:52.065 --> 00:51:53.505
like a US stable.

713
00:51:53.984 --> 00:52:02.980
In South Africa in particular, it seems like we've got a fairly strong Bitcoin community that are also spending Bitcoin. And so two thirds of our transactions

714
00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:05.140
are Bitcoin. And then about,

715
00:52:06.820 --> 00:52:08.260
let's say 15%,

716
00:52:08.260 --> 00:52:09.700
10 to 15%

717
00:52:10.180 --> 00:52:12.420
is the next biggest one, which is a USD tether.

718
00:52:15.825 --> 00:52:19.585
So Tether's big Now is that that's on Tron? It's usually on Tron, right?

719
00:52:20.545 --> 00:52:25.825
So for us, Tether would be it would be agnostic of the chain. We don't accept

720
00:52:26.785 --> 00:52:31.220
a Tether transaction directly to have to go in via wallet provider.

721
00:52:32.020 --> 00:52:36.580
So probably Tether on Tron. I think Tether on Solana is also getting more popular,

722
00:52:36.660 --> 00:52:47.495
but I don't know actually, to be totally honest. Wait, so how does that work? You have a stablecoin partner that is converting it to then Sats and then sending it to you and then you're converting it to Rand?

723
00:52:50.695 --> 00:52:51.255
So

724
00:52:51.655 --> 00:52:55.175
let's use Luna as an example. Luna lets us,

725
00:52:56.289 --> 00:53:05.570
so we've embedded, similarly, we've embedded our technology into the Luna mobile application. You can go and scan a proprietary retailer QR code with Luna application,

726
00:53:05.730 --> 00:53:08.210
we'll return the payment instruction

727
00:53:08.885 --> 00:53:14.565
that Luna displays to you. And then you can pick your token of choice because Luna is a multi token exchange.

728
00:53:15.285 --> 00:53:16.565
So you pick

729
00:53:16.885 --> 00:53:18.405
Tether if that's your

730
00:53:18.805 --> 00:53:23.204
if that's what you want to pay with, and then Luna ultimately will

731
00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:26.060
have a separate settlement process,

732
00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:28.220
and that will either be

733
00:53:29.420 --> 00:53:30.460
Rand Fiat,

734
00:53:30.940 --> 00:53:31.660
or Tether.

735
00:53:35.405 --> 00:53:38.045
And so what they're settling with you separately,

736
00:53:38.045 --> 00:53:39.805
and then you're just paying the merchant.

737
00:53:40.125 --> 00:53:40.765
Yeah.

738
00:53:42.605 --> 00:53:43.405
Interesting.

739
00:53:43.405 --> 00:53:47.805
So, technically, all these 650,006

740
00:53:48.120 --> 00:53:50.920
I mean, it makes sense. Right? But these 650,000

741
00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:51.720
locations,

742
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.600
people can spend any token that Luna

743
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:55.640
supports.

744
00:53:56.040 --> 00:53:57.720
Yeah. You can spend any token.

745
00:53:59.240 --> 00:54:04.345
And what do they support besides this is your old business. Right? Yeah, this is my old

746
00:54:04.664 --> 00:54:05.305
exchange.

747
00:54:05.464 --> 00:54:06.105
But

748
00:54:06.424 --> 00:54:08.744
you're not involved with it anymore. Did you sell it?

749
00:54:09.384 --> 00:54:14.025
So I'm involved only in so far as we are partnering with them now as a partner.

750
00:54:14.345 --> 00:54:17.730
My stake in that company was sold to an early investor.

751
00:54:17.810 --> 00:54:19.890
You might name, it's called Barry Silbert.

752
00:54:21.570 --> 00:54:23.010
Wow. Barry.

753
00:54:23.010 --> 00:54:25.570
Yeah. The new freaks might not know of him, but

754
00:54:27.250 --> 00:54:28.690
his name precedes himself.

755
00:54:29.465 --> 00:54:35.305
Okay. Fair enough. Okay. That's it. What other tokens does Luno support? I don't know if this is relevant. I'm just kinda curious.

756
00:54:36.985 --> 00:54:40.345
Mean, for me, nothing really is relevant except for Bitcoin. I

757
00:54:40.985 --> 00:54:45.145
mean, yeah. Look. So one of the one of the wallets we integrated with Binance.

758
00:54:45.520 --> 00:54:48.480
Okay. Binance supports all of the things. So essentially,

759
00:54:48.720 --> 00:54:50.000
essentially everything.

760
00:54:50.960 --> 00:55:05.465
So I can pay with BNB at Pick n Pay? You can absolutely pay with BNB at Pick n Pay. Get rid of it. I mean, if you support if you support Binance, it means I could probably pay with Trump's meme coin and get my You can cash probably pay with Trump's. Yeah, absolutely.

761
00:55:07.145 --> 00:55:10.105
Wow. Wild times we live in. What a world. Yep.

762
00:55:11.704 --> 00:55:24.040
Okay, Carol, this is this is awesome. I enjoyed it. I think you're crushing it. I will reiterate that I think you should be quite proud of what you've accomplished so far. And I do think it's early days. I think, you know, you'll accomplish much more. You just gotta keep grinding it out.

763
00:55:26.915 --> 00:55:30.915
Do you have anything else you want to discuss before we wrap here?

764
00:55:31.475 --> 00:55:37.155
Yeah, I think just for me, this is kind of like something that's urgent. There's a sense of urgency

765
00:55:37.315 --> 00:55:42.710
that I have about this. So thank you for saying that we should be proud, but like for me, this isn't

766
00:55:42.950 --> 00:55:47.990
about, you know, doing it for vanity sake. This is something that we need to do today

767
00:55:49.030 --> 00:55:50.230
we need to kind of

768
00:55:50.950 --> 00:55:54.069
shift the narrative. We need to create a narrative

769
00:55:54.695 --> 00:55:58.775
in the first place that Bitcoin is money because most people don't believe that.

770
00:55:59.494 --> 00:56:03.095
It's small portion of people that believe Bitcoin is money.

771
00:56:03.735 --> 00:56:14.980
And the result of that is you can say, you know, it's fine for now it can be a store of value only and in the future we can spend it, but that's not what's going to happen. What will end up happening is that the system,

772
00:56:15.700 --> 00:56:20.099
the broader system configures itself according to how people engage with a technology.

773
00:56:20.705 --> 00:56:24.545
And so if people engage with Bitcoin as only a store of value,

774
00:56:24.945 --> 00:56:26.065
the system will

775
00:56:26.385 --> 00:56:33.985
silo it. It will place it inside of a walled garden where you can buy and sell Bitcoin on an exchange using your bank, using BlackRock.

776
00:56:33.985 --> 00:56:36.270
And then the moment that you actually

777
00:56:37.310 --> 00:56:41.870
want to use it for these use cases where it actually improves people's lives,

778
00:56:42.990 --> 00:56:44.670
you find that that's like,

779
00:56:46.350 --> 00:56:48.830
it becomes impossible due to regulations,

780
00:56:48.910 --> 00:56:49.790
to the way the industry

781
00:56:50.195 --> 00:56:51.555
configures itself,

782
00:56:52.755 --> 00:56:54.675
and just the way that people perceive it.

783
00:56:55.875 --> 00:56:59.795
So I think that we've actually have a very limited window of opportunity today

784
00:57:00.435 --> 00:57:01.955
to build out these

785
00:57:02.115 --> 00:57:05.310
use cases of Bitcoin as a payment mechanism

786
00:57:05.390 --> 00:57:09.470
to show that not only is it possible, but that people will use Bitcoin to

787
00:57:09.869 --> 00:57:11.790
support themselves, support their lives.

788
00:57:13.630 --> 00:57:15.230
And then to show that it's

789
00:57:16.845 --> 00:57:22.445
also possible for you to, if you can live on Bitcoin to earn Bitcoin and then everything that goes with that. Ultimately,

790
00:57:22.685 --> 00:57:28.925
the goal is to have everybody saving Bitcoin, yes. Like I'm not gonna argue that. The ultimate goal is that everybody saves in Bitcoin.

791
00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:33.000
But I do think that if that's all that we do,

792
00:57:33.640 --> 00:57:41.240
we'll end up with something that isn't even half as useful as it can be, and we end up with a world that's less free than it should be.

793
00:57:46.215 --> 00:57:49.895
Yeah. I mean, I echo that sentiment. That makes I'm right there with you.

794
00:57:51.415 --> 00:57:55.015
Actually, while I have you, I'm kinda curious on

795
00:57:55.520 --> 00:57:58.720
if you're willing to walk through a theoretical with me.

796
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.720
Let's say instead of your current situation, you happen to be

797
00:58:05.040 --> 00:58:11.175
a PM at Block, formerly Square, and you're involved with their Bitcoin merchant processing.

798
00:58:11.494 --> 00:58:22.055
They currently have they've enabled Bitcoin for Square sellers. I think it's America only right now. That's where their largest footprint is anyway. But the Square seller has to go behind the scenes,

799
00:58:22.680 --> 00:58:28.520
the whoever is, is running their square account. So like the big boss man, not the cashier,

800
00:58:28.680 --> 00:58:30.360
has to go and enable it.

801
00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:35.880
And then when you go and you want to pay the merchant, you have to like, talk to the coffee shop,

802
00:58:36.575 --> 00:58:39.935
barista and tell the barista you want to pay with Bitcoin,

803
00:58:40.255 --> 00:58:47.615
then they have to check and make sure that Bitcoin is actually enabled, then they have to press the Bitcoin button, and then it shows an actual native lightning invoice

804
00:58:47.694 --> 00:58:48.734
on the screen.

805
00:58:49.055 --> 00:58:49.934
Now separately,

806
00:58:51.720 --> 00:58:54.840
they have their own QR code proprietary

807
00:58:54.840 --> 00:59:03.080
fiat payment standard called Cash App Pay that just shows a Cash App Pay QR code by default when it's enabled on the merchant

808
00:59:03.800 --> 00:59:04.200
screen.

809
00:59:06.725 --> 00:59:15.765
What is your opinion on how they implemented it versus just doing exactly what you did? And I just scan the Cash App QR code with Zeus,

810
00:59:16.245 --> 00:59:20.325
and it just works. And I don't have to talk to them about Bitcoin. They don't have to enable it separately.

811
00:59:22.330 --> 00:59:23.369
Do you have an opinion I on

812
00:59:27.690 --> 00:59:38.775
think it boils down to something you said earlier and it's about meeting people where they're at. I mean, this is kind of the tricky thing here would be if you're the block PM identifying

813
00:59:38.775 --> 00:59:40.855
who are the people that you actually wanna meet.

814
00:59:41.575 --> 00:59:48.135
So are you trying to solve something for the merchant or trying to solve something for the consumer? If you're trying to solve something for the consumer,

815
00:59:48.615 --> 00:59:50.935
where they're at, they're using Zoos, using Aqua,

816
00:59:51.819 --> 00:59:54.380
they're using their Lightning wallets, but there's very few of them.

817
00:59:55.099 --> 00:59:57.900
So if you're trying to solve a problem for them, that's great.

818
00:59:58.380 --> 01:00:00.860
And then maybe you should consider having some

819
01:00:01.420 --> 01:00:02.220
option

820
01:00:02.220 --> 01:00:03.099
to

821
01:00:04.055 --> 01:00:05.015
receive

822
01:00:05.175 --> 01:00:08.375
a scan of a Cash App QR code and then

823
01:00:08.615 --> 01:00:09.895
emit a

824
01:00:10.135 --> 01:00:14.295
Lightning invoice. Then it's very easy. Then you're a breach for yourself, right?

825
01:00:15.175 --> 01:00:18.615
But I think if I suspect that maybe

826
01:00:18.300 --> 01:00:28.620
the place for them to focus would be the merchant, which is their customer. And I think something to consider is that we can't I don't think we can win this game by taking an approach

827
01:00:28.780 --> 01:00:29.740
from only

828
01:00:30.455 --> 01:00:37.415
one side. So what I mean by that is we can't win this game if we only take a commercial approach. Like a commercial only approach

829
01:00:38.375 --> 01:00:41.095
on its own is not gonna make enough sense

830
01:00:41.335 --> 01:00:42.615
unless we attach

831
01:00:43.170 --> 01:00:45.010
a community initiative to it.

832
01:00:45.569 --> 01:00:48.530
So if the broader Bitcoin community and

833
01:00:48.770 --> 01:00:50.930
local Bitcoin societies

834
01:00:51.650 --> 01:01:04.465
don't also step in and step up, essentially what that means is there's no consumer demand for the solution. So you're just building something and then hoping they'll come, but they never come. And so what I would probably rather do as a block PM,

835
01:01:04.785 --> 01:01:11.265
mean, obviously it's nice to solve the consumer problem, but I would probably focus on the merchant problem first. And I would go to the barista.

836
01:01:12.030 --> 01:01:15.230
I would probably focus more on the barista and ask myself,

837
01:01:16.190 --> 01:01:18.430
what do I need to do to train that person

838
01:01:19.710 --> 01:01:24.670
to make it very easy and simple for somebody to pay with Bitcoin? And somebody walks into the shop and say, can I pay with Bitcoin?

839
01:01:25.445 --> 01:01:33.285
They need to say, yes, of course you can. And then secondly, they need to understand exactly how that works so they can advise the person that wants to pay.

840
01:01:34.165 --> 01:01:37.045
And, you know, maybe then the way to solve this is by

841
01:01:38.890 --> 01:01:41.530
community members going to that barista,

842
01:01:41.690 --> 01:01:45.290
installing a lighting wallet for them and saying, I'm gonna give you some

843
01:01:45.530 --> 01:01:48.650
excellent tips, but you need to install a lighting wallet to know how it works.

844
01:01:51.735 --> 01:02:04.550
Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting thought process because it is it is they've they're definitely on the merchant focused side and they definitely strongly believe in open standards, which is why I think they went the route of, you know, like a natural

845
01:02:05.030 --> 01:02:06.310
Bitcoin invoice.

846
01:02:06.310 --> 01:02:07.110
And they

847
01:02:07.510 --> 01:02:14.790
they they are providing a very strong merchant incentive, which is economy is not that great right now. And if they accept Bitcoin,

848
01:02:15.605 --> 01:02:19.204
they pay no fees until through the end of the year. And presumably,

849
01:02:19.204 --> 01:02:26.885
even after that, if they do add fees, my guess is they're going to be significantly lower than traditional fiat rails. So, there'll always be a if

850
01:02:27.365 --> 01:02:28.325
a merchant can

851
01:02:28.720 --> 01:02:33.600
get an extra 3% on their bottom line, that is a big deal. And so, I think merchants

852
01:02:33.680 --> 01:02:40.400
are very excited about it. I think it makes a lot of sense from that point of view. I will say from the consumer point of view,

853
01:02:42.695 --> 01:02:49.735
as someone who loves to spend Bitcoin and wants to spend Bitcoin, and the alternative is I'm selling Bitcoin

854
01:02:49.895 --> 01:02:54.775
for dollars to pay off my credit card, which is strictly worse than spending Bitcoin directly.

855
01:02:56.460 --> 01:03:08.780
It is a bit of a mental burden and I'm already the exception to the rule. Like I'm a small percentage of potential consumers that is like ready and willing to spend large amounts of Bitcoin at small businesses that I enjoy.

856
01:03:10.325 --> 01:03:13.205
The sheer fact that if I walk into a store

857
01:03:13.684 --> 01:03:17.445
and see a square terminal, and I don't know if they accept Bitcoin or not,

858
01:03:17.845 --> 01:03:21.525
dissuades me from spending Bitcoin because I don't I'm busy person.

859
01:03:22.020 --> 01:03:26.100
I'm a busy person. I don't wanna have a conversation with the barista about accepting Bitcoin.

860
01:03:26.660 --> 01:03:38.015
I would rather if I can skip that Bitcoin conversation, which is hilarious, right? Because I have a multiple Bitcoin podcast. I talk about Bitcoin all the time. This place I do not wanna talk about Bitcoin is when I'm in a long line

861
01:03:38.335 --> 01:03:40.655
at some small business trying to pay.

862
01:03:41.375 --> 01:03:45.775
And I just wanna if I don't know for sure that I can spend Bitcoin, I would

863
01:03:46.335 --> 01:03:59.160
and maybe this is an unpopular opinion. But I also I think most people feel this way, that are in my situation, they just don't say it out loud. Like, I'd rather tap to pay without Apple Pay or Google Pay or whatever. Like, I would just not have that conversation,

864
01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:01.160
not make myself an outlier,

865
01:04:01.240 --> 01:04:05.685
just tap to pay. And so the way you have implemented it

866
01:04:06.325 --> 01:04:10.645
is so much cleaner in a lot of ways, even though it's more quote unquote hacky.

867
01:04:10.885 --> 01:04:20.300
Right? It's like, I walk into a pick and pay, I know without talking to the person at the cash register that I can just pay with Bitcoin and we're done with it And this is done.

868
01:04:21.580 --> 01:04:27.500
Yeah. So it's interesting. I don't know. It's an interesting Just thing to think ask them for the QR code. They already know how that works.

869
01:04:28.300 --> 01:04:28.940
Yeah.

870
01:04:29.580 --> 01:04:32.460
Let me ask you this. Yeah, there's no nuances there.

871
01:04:33.935 --> 01:04:41.455
Would your hypothetical situation change? You walk into the coffee shop if the tip jar had a lightning QR code on it?

872
01:04:43.215 --> 01:04:44.575
Yeah, would tip them a bunch.

873
01:04:45.710 --> 01:04:46.910
And then would you

874
01:04:47.549 --> 01:04:50.270
you feel more comfortable saying, okay, wanna pay with Bitcoin?

875
01:04:52.190 --> 01:04:54.030
That would be a signaling mechanism

876
01:04:54.190 --> 01:04:58.430
they've built Bitcoin already, so I wouldn't have to worry. Yeah. And they're kinda doing that.

877
01:04:59.735 --> 01:05:01.175
They have their

878
01:05:01.175 --> 01:05:02.695
cute little Bitcoin

879
01:05:02.855 --> 01:05:10.055
stuffed animal that they're giving to merchants to put out and Bitcoin accepted here stickers. You can solve it through that.

880
01:05:12.710 --> 01:05:15.030
But right now, like and also like if

881
01:05:15.589 --> 01:05:23.670
I'm pretty sure they eat like their Cash App, like I need to have the Cash App app to like check the map to see if retail if I don't want to talk to someone

882
01:05:23.925 --> 01:05:28.885
I did like, yeah, they have a map that's integrated. I think I could technically use

883
01:05:29.765 --> 01:05:36.325
BTC map. I think they've cross integrated. They've definitely pulled in BTC map into Cash App. I don't know if they've done the reverse yet.

884
01:05:37.180 --> 01:05:40.380
But also once again, like, I don't want to think about it. Like I can.

885
01:05:42.380 --> 01:05:48.460
I don't want to have a conversation with the cashier about Bitcoin. Will have no man. I love

886
01:05:48.780 --> 01:05:51.340
I love you know, if I'm talking to an owner,

887
01:05:52.315 --> 01:05:54.075
especially

888
01:05:54.075 --> 01:05:59.675
over a beer, I'd love to have a long conversation about how they should move to a Bitcoin standard. 100%.

889
01:06:00.475 --> 01:06:12.970
But if there's a long line at the hardware store, or the burger shop or something, I'm not trying to have a conversation with the guy who's making minimum wage behind the counter about Bitcoin, especially since 90%

890
01:06:12.970 --> 01:06:15.450
of the time they're going to be like, what the fuck are you talking about?

891
01:06:16.464 --> 01:06:22.945
And then I just have to pay anyway. So, like, I've been there. I've done it. And so in my perfect situation,

892
01:06:23.984 --> 01:06:25.265
what I would do

893
01:06:26.065 --> 01:06:30.464
or what I was hoping they were gonna do is that Bitcoin was enabled by default.

894
01:06:31.690 --> 01:06:36.810
The cashier just presses a single button on the back end, presses Bitcoin and shows a lightning invoice.

895
01:06:37.050 --> 01:06:42.970
Then if the admin or the owner of the business didn't enable it, they received dollars and not Bitcoin, and that's fine.

896
01:06:43.785 --> 01:06:54.025
Whatever. I got to spend Bitcoin. But supposedly per their merchant agreements, they can't do that. Like, that's illegal. So okay. That's reasonable to me. But then then all of a sudden, it gets interesting where

897
01:06:55.464 --> 01:07:08.290
okay. You could do the Cash pay, you could do like, they already show a Cash App pay QR code on a lot of these merchants. Like you walk up and like literally the screen is already showing the QR code to pay with quote unquote Cash App pay, which is their proprietary QR code,

898
01:07:09.015 --> 01:07:13.655
fee out payment method. So if I can pay with Bitcoin that way Maybe you just need that bridge

899
01:07:14.055 --> 01:07:16.135
and they can provide the bridge. Why not?

900
01:07:17.654 --> 01:07:22.855
I'm, yeah, I don't know. I'm thinking out loud here, but maybe, maybe I'll have a conversation with Miles and them about it.

901
01:07:23.570 --> 01:07:26.770
Do you think that's why they call Bitcoin hard money?

902
01:07:29.330 --> 01:07:34.369
Because you have to have hard conversations with your barista every time you wanna spend it? It's just hard. It's just hard to use it.

903
01:07:38.384 --> 01:07:39.505
I I

904
01:07:39.505 --> 01:07:43.505
will say the tip side is an interesting aspect because,

905
01:07:47.105 --> 01:07:50.704
I mean, coming from Nashville, right, all the

906
01:07:50.319 --> 01:07:53.119
the musicians all have QR codes for tips.

907
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:56.800
Like it's usually Venmo or Cash App in America. But

908
01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:01.360
they're sitting up there playing music. They're all starving artists.

909
01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:06.495
And they have their QR codes printed out for people to pay them.

910
01:08:07.935 --> 01:08:10.735
I'm a big cash guy still. I love cash.

911
01:08:11.375 --> 01:08:12.734
But like 95%

912
01:08:12.734 --> 01:08:15.135
of the money they get is through the digital

913
01:08:15.295 --> 01:08:16.175
fiat payments.

914
01:08:17.820 --> 01:08:20.380
So that's another example, right? Like

915
01:08:20.699 --> 01:08:23.260
if I could just scan a Venmo QR code

916
01:08:23.659 --> 01:08:26.219
and pay with Bitcoin, that'd be fucking awesome.

917
01:08:26.540 --> 01:08:27.900
That'd be so awesome.

918
01:08:28.380 --> 01:08:30.860
Then I wouldn't have to have the conversation. They'll just get dollars.

919
01:08:32.205 --> 01:08:34.205
I'm sure all of that will come over time.

920
01:08:35.085 --> 01:08:41.165
I also love cash No. Not in the way, sir. It's fantastic for privacy, but it sucks if that's all all that you have.

921
01:08:42.845 --> 01:08:43.485
What do you mean?

922
01:08:44.410 --> 01:08:46.889
If your only option is

923
01:08:46.890 --> 01:08:51.530
paying with cash, then it kinda sucks. If that's like the only way that you have to pay.

924
01:08:52.250 --> 01:08:54.010
No, I'd rather pay with Yeah. Bitcoin than

925
01:08:55.610 --> 01:08:58.330
If you have a choice, cash is great. But

926
01:08:59.235 --> 01:09:04.914
a lot of people Yeah. Like in South Africa, all that they have is cash. It's literally how they save is cash in an envelope.

927
01:09:05.795 --> 01:09:08.434
Yeah. That's completely different in America. In America,

928
01:09:09.235 --> 01:09:11.395
people are choosing not to use cash.

929
01:09:12.700 --> 01:09:13.980
So we all use

930
01:09:14.140 --> 01:09:15.900
like track digital payments

931
01:09:16.540 --> 01:09:17.739
and that's what it is.

932
01:09:18.620 --> 01:09:27.660
Okay, cool. Do you have any final thoughts to the freaks call to action before we anyway, can, can, can the listeners be helpful in any way before we wrap or?

933
01:09:28.775 --> 01:09:34.775
Well, okay. Maybe one controversial statement. If you are not spending Bitcoin, then you're actually short Bitcoin

934
01:09:35.095 --> 01:09:37.415
because it means that you've I agree.

935
01:09:37.655 --> 01:09:41.975
You have fiat to spend. But whatever, but I think

936
01:09:42.889 --> 01:09:45.050
the thing just to think about is that, like,

937
01:09:45.369 --> 01:09:51.610
how deeply do you actually believe in Bitcoin as money for freedom? If it's something that you actually

938
01:09:51.690 --> 01:09:56.010
care about, most people don't care about, that's fine. You don't have to care about it. But if you care about it,

939
01:09:56.985 --> 01:09:58.745
then you really should consider

940
01:09:59.385 --> 01:10:00.025
the

941
01:10:00.905 --> 01:10:01.545
effort

942
01:10:02.265 --> 01:10:06.585
of spending Bitcoin, because what you're doing then is you're creating demand for acceptance.

943
01:10:07.465 --> 01:10:17.300
If nobody's spending it, there's no demand for acceptance and the circle doesn't grow. So the number one way to grow it is to create demand for acceptance. Because if one merchant realizes,

944
01:10:17.620 --> 01:10:20.179
you know, I'm tapping into a unique market here,

945
01:10:20.580 --> 01:10:26.660
then the others will follow. That's the only way to grow it. So yes, it's hard money because it's hard to use

946
01:10:27.115 --> 01:10:27.995
for now.

947
01:10:28.315 --> 01:10:30.635
Low your time preference and in the future,

948
01:10:31.035 --> 01:10:32.554
the convenience will come.

949
01:10:33.035 --> 01:10:38.715
But if we don't spend it today, if we don't create that market of Bitcoin spenders today and that demand,

950
01:10:39.355 --> 01:10:41.435
it might not be possible to create in the future.

951
01:10:44.740 --> 01:10:53.940
Love it. Carol, this is a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I'd love to have you on, like, a year again or something like in, a year or so. We can do a catch up and see where you're at.

952
01:10:54.885 --> 01:11:02.485
You have me on signal now. Yeah, the hard money. That's the real reason they call it hard money is because it turns all of our hair gray. I

953
01:11:04.485 --> 01:11:17.499
you have me on signal now. So if I can be helpful in any way, just don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you. I enjoyed it. And I will visit you guys in South Africa at some point. And I know I brought great shame to my family that I haven't been out there yet. I was talking to her mom about this too,

954
01:11:17.900 --> 01:11:20.699
Bitcoin and Cosi, but I'll make it out there. You guys have been

955
01:11:21.100 --> 01:11:23.100
crushing it on the Bitcoin adoption front.

956
01:11:24.495 --> 01:11:27.295
And if you come, we'll make sure that you've got excellent

957
01:11:27.295 --> 01:11:28.175
stake.

958
01:11:29.295 --> 01:11:31.454
That's all that's all I ask.

959
01:11:31.935 --> 01:11:38.520
Freaks, thank you for supporting the show. Share with your friends and family. Hope you enjoyed this this conversation.

960
01:11:40.120 --> 01:11:42.679
All relevant links are at cyladispatch.com.

961
01:11:43.480 --> 01:11:47.400
Download Primal app if you're not on Noster. Use any other Noster app.

962
01:11:47.640 --> 01:11:51.095
Reply to the show. When I post the show on Noster,

963
01:11:51.335 --> 01:11:54.135
reply to it, give your feedback, engage with other freaks.

964
01:11:54.375 --> 01:11:55.975
It's helpful. It's,

965
01:11:56.695 --> 01:11:59.895
it's why I do it. It makes it, it makes it more enjoyable

966
01:12:00.295 --> 01:12:02.215
being along for the ride with you all. So

967
01:12:02.834 --> 01:12:09.154
anyway, huge shout to Carol. I'll put all his relevant links in the show notes and stay humble StackSets. Love you all. Peace.