CD185: ROB AND ANDREAS - BETTER BITCOIN WALLETS

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 12/02/2025 20:16:45
Duration: 4140.669
Channels: 1

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.

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It's your host Odell here for another digital dispatch.

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The show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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Since I've been running non live shows, I think it's important to mention

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what's the current block height. Right now, it's block height nine two six one six three.

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Tuesday morning, my time, December 2,

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we will be posting this later today.

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The current sats per dollar is

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thousand 99

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sats.

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So we're a little over $90,000

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per Bitcoin.

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As always,

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dispatch is funded by viewers like you.

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Our audience funds the show with Bitcoin donations.

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And Cali, our last guest, put out a call out for you guys to support the show, and you guys came out really hard. So I just wanted to thank everyone

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who supported the show last week.

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As always, I'll shout out the highest zaps we got.

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We had rider die freak Brian zapped 250,000

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zaps, which might be the largest boost

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largest zap we've ever gotten on the show. He said, don't be gay. Send fat zaps for Cali.

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Great message.

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Cosign it. Thank you, Brian. You can find him at primal.net/brianwithay.

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Ride or die freak map 21 zapped 30,000 zaps.

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Cali called my 10 k zap a good zap. I'll do better.

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And

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notable mention for Andy who zapped 25,000

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sats in all caps. He asked for the demand he demanded the return of the intro music.

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So that's why you got the intro music today.

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I'll I'll add it. I'll add it to all future episodes. Sats speak louder than words.

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And then on podcasting two point o apps like Fountain,

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our biggest boost was ride or die freak, Sawzall with 50,000 sats. He said great rip. Always appreciate the still dispatch, freedom tech signal,

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and ride or die freak, Eric nine 9, zapped 42,000

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sets as well. Thank you guys for your support. Easiest way to support the show.

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Is your favorite Nostra app or podcasting two point o app? I like primal.

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For Nostra, I like

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fountain podcasts

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for podcasting two point o, but there's a bunch of different apps out there you can try. All links are still dispatch.com.

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We're available on every podcast app. If you don't have sass to spare, sharing with friends and family really does help.

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Okay.

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With all that said, we got a great conversation planned for today.

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We will be talking about,

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I guess I guess the common denominator is Bitcoin development kit, BDK.

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My good friend,

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a Nashville neighbor at Bitcoin Park,

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Steve Myers, who runs our BitDevs, also runs the Bitcoin dev kit project,

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and he suggested

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that I have a conversation with these two gentlemen.

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So I'm looking forward to it. Basically, whenever Steve,

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suggests something or asks something, I

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just say yes because he is an awesome dude.

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We have Andreas here,

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from Bitcoin Safe. How's it going, Andreas?

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Yeah. Great. Hi.

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Did I pronounce your name correctly?

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Yes. Absolutely.

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Okay. Awesome. And then the easier to pronounce name, we have Rob,

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from Kyoto. How's it going, Rob?

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Yo. How's it going?

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It's, Great to have you here.

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Thanks.

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It's the evening for us.

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It's, 6PM for me.

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6PM for you. U t UTC

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seventeen hundred.

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Yep.

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Actually, you're you're close to UTC.

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Yeah. I'm enjoying a, a nice beer here. So we're on different, different wavelengths maybe.

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There we go. Well, I like to hear that.

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A show is always better with, like, good beer.

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So how do you guys,

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have you guys, do you guys know each other in person already?

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Yep. Yeah. We we met

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at, last week, last year,

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and we've stayed in contact quite a lot.

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Yeah. And Was that was that at Bitcoin Park? That was at Bitcoin Park? Yeah.

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And that was specifically it was like a BDK summit that we hosted. Right?

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Yeah. It was all all up and down the stack. The rest of Bitcoin guys, Polstra and,

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Tobin Harding as well. Those guys are killing it. Yeah. Tobin's great. And then Martin, I forget his last name, but he's also a prolific

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dev.

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So did one of you wanna give just a quick primer on, like, what is BDK, and what is the goal of that project specifically?

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Yeah. I can Rob.

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From the perspective of a developer, I can kinda take it over, and then

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I think Andreas as a user,

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can tell us how it's used in action. But

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how I see BDK is the

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software development kit to rule all software development kits for building a Bitcoin wallet.

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So covers all platforms,

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you know, as many languages as possible,

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very thoroughly tested,

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thoroughly reviewed.

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And yeah. So instead of reinventing the wheel,

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every single time someone wants to, build a Bitcoin wallet,

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they can just pull an off the shelf solution

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that,

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we have people working around the clock on.

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And,

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yeah, I'll let Andreas take over how it's how he's using it.

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But from a development point of view, that's how I see it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. That's exactly it. It's it's a

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really good foundation to build a wallet

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on. So it it comes with

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all kinds of you could think of modules you can plug together.

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It has

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it has, a way

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to manage transactions, like, in in or build a a whole wallet. It has a way to synchronize the blockchain.

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It has a way to construct PSBTs.

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All of these things that you need for a Bitcoin wallet,

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it provides.

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And it's being actively developed, so, like, new features are added every three months.

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And, one of the one of the really cool features that that Rob,

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worked on is compact block filters,

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and

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that's that's a really awesome way to synchronize the blockchain,

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and it's

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also now available in Bitcoin safe.

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So, basically, there's all those complicated

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aspects that,

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that developers historically have had to deal with when building out Bitcoin apps.

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And a lot of them involve things that if you mess up would result in fund loss

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or just,

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incredibly bad time for users.

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So BDK kind of just takes that out of the box, provides that to developers, and then developers can then build on top of that in a safe and relatively easy way so we can see more Bitcoin apps that are secure out there. Right?

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Yes.

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And it's not only available in one language. I mean, it's it's written in Rust, but, there are language bindings for all kinds of languages.

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And, for example, I'm not using Rust. I'm developing Python, so I use the Python bindings

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of BDK, and it works great.

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That's cool.

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Yeah. I like how you mentioned,

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security because I think it even goes

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a bit deeper than that, like reinventing the wheel. If you imagine a user using a a UI

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and,

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maybe there's just some Internet problem.

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If you have some,

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you know, hand rolled solution

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that's,

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you know, not very prime to, report errors back or what have you back to the user.

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Sometimes just not updating or not showing progress is just as bad as as,

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you know, some sort of irrecoverable

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error. So I think

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BDK

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offers, like, a really high level of,

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development,

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and and testing coverage.

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So you don't get

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these, situations where the user is confused,

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even if there's nothing necessarily wrong,

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just that they're they're confused as as to what the error is,

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or what's going on with their wallet. So,

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Yeah. I I think there's there's many levels. Of course, security, irrecoverable, fund loss, that's

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horrible, and we hope it doesn't happen. But,

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the Bitcoin experience, you know, has a lot of a lot of layers. So I think it it tries to check all of those boxes.

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That makes sense to me.

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Awesome. Okay. So let's jump into your project specifically.

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I guess let's start with you, Rob,

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since I it seems like Kyoto's a bit more high level.

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What what is

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what is Kyoto? Why should people care?

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Where where's the value that it brings?

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So going all the way back to when

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I was first, like, poking around,

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projects in Bitcoin.

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Laalu from Lightning Labs gave this,

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this talk on compact block filters, like, a long a long time ago at SFBitDevs.

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It's it's on YouTube somewhere. You can find it.

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And he sold this vision of, like,

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a node

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in your, like, home router

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or, like, these little mini nodes that are just sort of everywhere. Super lightweight,

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but very private

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and,

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a bit more trustless than, than maybe a server model. So I was really sold on that.

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But then when I went to research, it's pretty much only used in

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Golang,

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for L and D stuff,

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which is perfectly fine. I think Zeus uses it.

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Of course, you could use it with LND,

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but Doesn't Wasabi use it as well? Wasabi does use it. They use,

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so I guess there's there's actually two specification or

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there's two bips that comprise compact block filters. There's client side,

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like, how do we sync them? And then there's the actual

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technology itself, like,

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what are the filters?

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So these are two separate write ups. So they use the filters,

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which are quite private,

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but they just download them from, like, an HTTP,

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server.

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Well, of course, with TLS. So, you know, like, a secure server. But it's, yeah, it's not directly from the peer to peer network. So I as I understand, they're they're migrating over to using the peer to peer network. And just the reason was it was just practicality. Like the peer to peer network wasn't actually broadcasting

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compact block filters for them to use yet. Right? Yeah. I think at the time that they deployed it, because yeah, that was quite a a long time ago. I remember using it using Like, 2019, 2020 or something even.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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So

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way back when, yeah, when the when the spec first rolled out, there probably wasn't a lot of of nodes surfing these these filters, but I think the story has, changed a bit.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. So Wasabi, Zeus,

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Nutreno backend with LND.

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Those were the options. But,

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you know, as we covered with BDK,

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BDK,

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I think the approach is to just offer

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to as many devs as possible the complete, you know, Bitcoin development experience.

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So that's what popped out to me, and I decided to write a client in Rust,

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that could reach as many developers as possible. Because I I think

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it should at least be,

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an option in in every drop down menu. Like, this is how you can sync with the blockchain.

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And it just didn't seem that,

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that was gonna be the case,

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with the current state of things,

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in in going.

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So that's that's kinda the origin of the project.

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Got it.

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So, I mean, just real quick,

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why,

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to someone who might have gotten to this point, to just heard you say all that stuff and got a bit confused, why would someone white wanna use compact block filters as opposed to

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connecting to an Electrum server or

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doing it another way, doing it a more traditional way that we've done in Bitcoin if you're not running. So, like, if just I'll just set up I'll set it up better. If

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if the best way to use Bitcoin in a trust minimized way is to use it with your own node. Because no matter what, to use the to interact with the greater Bitcoin network, you have to use a node. And if you're not using your own node, you're using someone else's node, and you have to trust them with enforcing the rules of the network and with your privacy.

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So, historically, people have had two choices. They've had the choice of,

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using their own node or connecting to someone else's node where they're basically sending,

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their addresses and being like, look up how much Bitcoin is at these addresses.

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But now we have compact black filters, which presents a different option. Correct?

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Exact exactly right. So I'm gonna do a quick detour because I feel like maybe my background

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might shed a little light onto this. So I out of college,

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I got a job

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for what was essentially an advertisement technology company, and I was doing, like, basically predictive modeling for them. And pretty much instantly from joining the company, I got very disillusioned and that, you know, that's kind of a part of my,

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my Bitcoin sort of background. But these advertisement technology companies will use

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anything and everything to try and, you know,

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give you dynamic pricing. So

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a great example is Target.

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If you if you wanna buy a TV from Target, there was there was some story or something. You know? Hopefully, this isn't just hearsay, but,

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the price of the TV was higher because the IP,

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or or the the person's device showed that they're in the target parking lot.

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So

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dynamic pricing,

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you can have different opinions on it,

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but advertisement

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companies will use anything and everything.

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So that's where I come from,

239
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which is really bad.

240
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And so why you should care about

241
00:15:21.735 --> 00:15:23.355
your privacy in this,

242
00:15:23.894 --> 00:15:25.435
in in the context of Bitcoin.

243
00:15:26.135 --> 00:15:33.355
I think I've heard you or somebody else say something very similar. Like, you don't want your butcher knowing your entire life's, you know, savings.

244
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And,

245
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I completely agree with that, and I would go as far as to say you don't want anyone knowing your life savings, you know, maybe Right. Less your wife or something.

246
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So

247
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the the

248
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caveat with using a a server based model

249
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is, as you said, you go through all of your addresses, and you say, just tell me the balance of all these addresses. So what you've done there is you've grouped

250
00:15:58.375 --> 00:16:00.955
a a set of addresses to to an identity.

251
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It

252
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it doesn't

253
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you know, it only takes one slip up. So let's say you're doing this over Tor. It only takes one slip up to to associate

254
00:16:10.580 --> 00:16:11.960
a handful of these together,

255
00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:18.055
and then some sort of chain analysis company knows, like, okay. This group of addresses belongs to,

256
00:16:18.755 --> 00:16:19.495
this IP.

257
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And

258
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I don't think it's the state of affairs now, but, like, my biggest fear is that this stuff is sold to advertisement technology companies and stuff in the future

259
00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.140
to the point where, you know,

260
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you wanna go on Amazon, and it's completely priced based on based on your stack. Because at some point, you know, you had some sort of, privacy,

261
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you know,

262
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fault.

263
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And so what Compact Block Filters offers is you don't allow any service or any server or what have you to do this bucketing,

264
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but it's incredibly

265
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low resource. So the primary problem with running a full node,

266
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especially if you're nontechnical, is maybe you want a node in the box solution or something like that. It's not exactly cheap.

267
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And,

268
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you know, that's no knock on these companies. I think they're doing cool stuff.

269
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But Compact Block Filters is right in center in the middle. You have

270
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high privacy guarantees,

271
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with low resource requirements.

272
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So sorry for, like, the biggest side,

273
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but,

274
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yeah, I'm I'm pretty passionate about this this issue.

275
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And, yeah, the primary problem is you don't want your your addresses sort of bucketed together.

276
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Right.

277
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And and

278
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okay. So then can we just quickly go into,

279
00:17:51.294 --> 00:17:54.674
and and just to put a nod on that on the privacy side,

280
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The scary thing about Bitcoin is that

281
00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:02.870
if we're right about Bitcoin, the blockchain is gonna live forever.

282
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So

283
00:18:04.530 --> 00:18:06.710
if you may if you have leaks today,

284
00:18:07.169 --> 00:18:11.190
maybe they're not selling to advertisement companies, maybe they're not selling it to governments.

285
00:18:12.225 --> 00:18:13.285
But in the future,

286
00:18:14.145 --> 00:18:22.245
that can then be traced back to you, and then they could be grouped together. And all it takes is, you know, you have one deposit to someone who's sharing information,

287
00:18:22.545 --> 00:18:24.005
just grouped with other addresses,

288
00:18:24.470 --> 00:18:27.530
And then all of a sudden, they have five years of transaction data in the past.

289
00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:32.250
So it's important that we're proactive about it. And on the cost side with nodes,

290
00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:33.690
you know, I think,

291
00:18:35.270 --> 00:18:39.850
the Bitcoin community, specifically the Bitcoin development community, should be very proud that it's

292
00:18:40.725 --> 00:18:43.305
actually relatively compared to most other

293
00:18:43.765 --> 00:18:50.265
infrastructure that we rely on, relatively cheap and easy to use your own node, and and we need to keep it that way.

294
00:18:51.684 --> 00:19:01.000
I think probably the biggest limiter is is mental burden and friction. I mean, I I think people are just not used to running a twenty four seven server that has uptime.

295
00:19:02.420 --> 00:19:07.400
You know, at at the lowest level, you can just run Bitcoin Core on your on your computer you're already using.

296
00:19:08.179 --> 00:19:09.320
And and

297
00:19:09.645 --> 00:19:12.545
if it's a modern computer, it's gonna sync relatively quickly.

298
00:19:13.485 --> 00:19:22.705
But but all that said, we have to run under the assumption that the overwhelming majority of users are not gonna use their own Bitcoin network, and it's mostly because of friction.

299
00:19:24.500 --> 00:19:29.799
That is just probably just unavoidable friction. So, like, let's provide them a a pretty straightforward

300
00:19:31.059 --> 00:19:31.559
relatively

301
00:19:32.100 --> 00:19:33.799
good trade off balance way

302
00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:40.495
of of connecting to the Bitcoin network, and that's what compact block filters represents. Now I've my understanding

303
00:19:41.115 --> 00:19:44.335
historically has been that they don't work that well on mobile.

304
00:19:45.914 --> 00:19:49.054
Can you is is that no longer the case, or,

305
00:19:51.115 --> 00:19:52.560
where do we stand on that?

306
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.740
Yeah. So I think there's a couple of different fronts to

307
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.940
to attack this. So on the one hand, I think,

308
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:02.020
one of the bottlenecks

309
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:02.800
is,

310
00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:06.820
CPU because in this protocol, there's there's quite a bit of hashing.

311
00:20:08.945 --> 00:20:12.005
And for for the audience, that's maybe less technical.

312
00:20:13.025 --> 00:20:15.365
Anytime you you do a hash,

313
00:20:16.145 --> 00:20:18.565
just as how Bitcoin miners are hashing,

314
00:20:19.745 --> 00:20:22.405
this has a sort of, power requirement

315
00:20:22.785 --> 00:20:24.005
on your on your CPU.

316
00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:27.660
So that was one complaint is, like,

317
00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.780
yeah, maybe you wanna use compact block filters, but,

318
00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.020
if I have to have my phone plugged into the charger,

319
00:20:36.375 --> 00:20:38.235
you know, that that's a little less realistic.

320
00:20:39.815 --> 00:20:44.075
Maybe I just wanna buy a coffee or something. So that that's one complaint. I would say that's still

321
00:20:44.855 --> 00:20:45.355
somewhat

322
00:20:46.295 --> 00:20:48.555
unresolved, but it kind of ties into

323
00:20:49.655 --> 00:20:50.635
the next thing.

324
00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:57.840
So one thing that's improved quite a bit is, at least in iOS, and I'm sure for Android as well,

325
00:20:58.540 --> 00:21:01.120
the mobile OSes have gotten really, really good,

326
00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:07.544
and they've gotten good at and they've also gotten more open, let's say. So iOS lets you

327
00:21:08.164 --> 00:21:10.585
perform some some things in the background,

328
00:21:11.044 --> 00:21:16.184
like, while the user, you know, is plugged into charger and on Wi Fi. So let's say the user is just, like, asleep.

329
00:21:17.365 --> 00:21:21.144
The the primary problem with compact block filters is that

330
00:21:21.860 --> 00:21:26.440
the number of filters you need to check or, I guess, the the number of blocks you need to scan,

331
00:21:27.060 --> 00:21:36.680
to put it that way, it grow goes up linearly as time goes on. So as as more time passes without you using the app, that's increasing the the amount of bandwidth you have to use.

332
00:21:38.125 --> 00:21:39.585
But if we leverage things

333
00:21:40.205 --> 00:21:44.385
like, you know, maybe there's a background sync every week or every day,

334
00:21:46.525 --> 00:21:49.985
then it becomes much more snappy when the user opens up their phone.

335
00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:58.710
They're not they're not downloading a bunch of pass blocks because we've just sort of passively scanned them in the background. So I think that's the primary thing I hope to see

336
00:21:59.170 --> 00:22:00.450
moving forward is,

337
00:22:00.770 --> 00:22:01.910
developers leverage

338
00:22:02.290 --> 00:22:03.990
those APIs and, like,

339
00:22:04.755 --> 00:22:08.215
make the phone do a little bit of work, even while the user is asleep

340
00:22:09.155 --> 00:22:10.375
or something like that.

341
00:22:11.635 --> 00:22:16.935
And I think that would improve the experience quite a bit. Is there something is there something there

342
00:22:17.555 --> 00:22:18.935
that, like, if

343
00:22:19.780 --> 00:22:21.800
a user is using more addresses

344
00:22:23.059 --> 00:22:25.559
that it that it compounds on itself

345
00:22:26.020 --> 00:22:30.200
compared to, like, maybe just the maybe the typical user is using, you know,

346
00:22:31.059 --> 00:22:35.645
generating and using one new address a month or something. But, like, if you're a power user and you're using

347
00:22:36.184 --> 00:22:39.645
100 new addresses a week or something like that, does that make it

348
00:22:40.585 --> 00:22:41.085
significantly

349
00:22:41.385 --> 00:22:42.684
worse performance wise?

350
00:22:43.145 --> 00:22:44.765
Yeah. So there is a certain threshold

351
00:22:45.705 --> 00:22:47.725
where you're basically going to download

352
00:22:48.390 --> 00:22:49.370
every single block,

353
00:22:49.670 --> 00:22:51.690
at which point you maybe want to use,

354
00:22:54.070 --> 00:23:02.730
like, maybe a full node makes more sense to you. But I would still even argue, like, the cool thing about this protocol and combined with BDK is you can download the block,

355
00:23:03.424 --> 00:23:08.885
basically apply all of the relevant information, and then just throw the block away. Like, you no longer need it.

356
00:23:10.145 --> 00:23:11.044
And right now,

357
00:23:12.625 --> 00:23:21.710
I I don't really think that same level of experience is is there for, like, Bitcoin Core running a a pre node or something like that. Like I said, I mean, the the requirement for

358
00:23:22.090 --> 00:23:24.750
storage is basically minimal with this protocol.

359
00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:31.870
So that being said, I mean, at some point, you might as well just download every block and throw it away.

360
00:23:32.895 --> 00:23:33.555
But that

361
00:23:33.935 --> 00:23:34.435
would

362
00:23:34.815 --> 00:23:42.275
would be more like your example of, like, I'm revealing 100 addresses a week or something. I'm I'm a merchant or something like that. Maybe BTCPay server

363
00:23:42.655 --> 00:23:43.555
makes more sense.

364
00:23:45.289 --> 00:23:51.710
But if if you're still really resource constrained, I I would argue it's it's still a perfectly fine protocol just for the storage,

365
00:23:53.210 --> 00:23:54.990
minimization, if that makes sense.

366
00:23:55.450 --> 00:23:56.669
Got it. And then,

367
00:23:57.210 --> 00:23:57.710
Kyoto

368
00:23:58.330 --> 00:23:58.830
specifically

369
00:24:00.465 --> 00:24:04.385
is it both it's both a protocol and a reference client. Am I correct? Or

370
00:24:05.105 --> 00:24:14.005
So, yeah, it implements yeah. It's a it's a reference client for the BIP one five seven BIP one five eight. So it's like a compact block filter

371
00:24:14.580 --> 00:24:17.000
reference client. Yeah. Just as how Neutrino

372
00:24:17.779 --> 00:24:20.520
from Lightning Labs is another reference client.

373
00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:25.720
And I hope more, you know, come up in targeted languages in the future.

374
00:24:26.020 --> 00:24:28.039
But I just wanted to add a little diversity,

375
00:24:28.425 --> 00:24:31.165
and I think Rust is is a great language to do that.

376
00:24:31.945 --> 00:24:32.605
Got it.

377
00:24:33.385 --> 00:24:33.885
Yeah.

378
00:24:35.065 --> 00:24:36.365
Okay. Let's Andreas,

379
00:24:37.145 --> 00:24:38.765
so what is Bitcoin safe

380
00:24:39.225 --> 00:24:39.725
and,

381
00:24:40.505 --> 00:24:42.285
does it use compact block filters?

382
00:24:43.970 --> 00:24:46.789
Yeah. Bitcoin Safe, is a desktop software,

383
00:24:47.250 --> 00:24:49.429
for managing your cold storage wallets.

384
00:24:51.570 --> 00:24:57.669
And it's it's hardware signer only, so you need a hardware wallet to use it on Mainnet. On on Testnet, you can,

385
00:24:58.105 --> 00:24:59.965
use seeds, but not on Mainnet

386
00:25:00.745 --> 00:25:03.725
because, use case there is really cold storage.

387
00:25:04.345 --> 00:25:04.825
And,

388
00:25:05.225 --> 00:25:06.044
it offers

389
00:25:07.065 --> 00:25:08.044
a lot of features

390
00:25:08.345 --> 00:25:12.845
for the cold storage use case for individuals, but also for groups or organizations.

391
00:25:15.040 --> 00:25:18.420
And regarding your questions, yes, it uses COMEQ block filters.

392
00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:23.540
This, I think, is a very important way to enable private synchronization.

393
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:24.740
It it uses,

394
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:26.580
Rob's implementation

395
00:25:27.375 --> 00:25:28.275
from BDK.

396
00:25:29.455 --> 00:25:29.955
And,

397
00:25:31.455 --> 00:25:31.955
it's

398
00:25:32.255 --> 00:25:36.995
from from the performance wise, I'm I'm really blown away by Rob's implementation. It's

399
00:25:38.015 --> 00:25:44.679
there's there's basically two cases you have to look at. The first is initial recovery or initial synchronization

400
00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:46.919
the first time you set up a wallet.

401
00:25:48.019 --> 00:25:48.500
They are,

402
00:25:49.059 --> 00:25:56.279
it it really needs some time to synchronize, like, order of magnitudes, like, half an hour for, like, a second wallet if you recover it.

403
00:25:57.784 --> 00:26:01.485
But once that's done and you're a week offline

404
00:26:02.345 --> 00:26:06.605
on desktop, it's as fast as an Electrum server. It's it's it's seconds,

405
00:26:07.145 --> 00:26:10.044
after the base. Interesting. So the big trade off is,

406
00:26:10.345 --> 00:26:27.299
like, initial sync for an existing wallet? Yeah. Yeah. So to be clear, this is only an existing wallet. So if you fire up a new wallet and we're working on this. I just made the argument new wallet, you have nothing to look up. Yes. Exactly. So there there's you can just start essentially from from the chain tip. So to be clear, we're talking about,

407
00:26:27.875 --> 00:26:29.895
you're recovering a wallet. Maybe you

408
00:26:30.355 --> 00:26:38.535
are migrating from Bitcoin Core and you're traveling for a bit, let's say, and you just wanna be able to to, access your your wallet,

409
00:26:39.075 --> 00:26:40.855
on your laptop, then,

410
00:26:41.520 --> 00:26:44.980
this is where you would face that recovery time. But we're it's pretty niche,

411
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:46.740
scenarios, I would say.

412
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:49.460
Well, I mean, as someone

413
00:26:50.080 --> 00:26:50.960
as someone,

414
00:26:53.135 --> 00:26:56.915
who travels a lot, like, I don't keep any,

415
00:26:59.935 --> 00:27:05.795
like, pub key information or anything on my travel laptop because I just assume that's what's gonna be searched.

416
00:27:06.390 --> 00:27:08.890
So I do find I I mean, I was I

417
00:27:09.270 --> 00:27:15.130
you know, first of all, there's probably there's not that many sovereign Bitcoin users right now, so everything's a niche use case.

418
00:27:16.310 --> 00:27:16.810
But,

419
00:27:17.990 --> 00:27:18.490
restoring

420
00:27:19.110 --> 00:27:19.610
multisig,

421
00:27:20.425 --> 00:27:21.725
hardware based multisig

422
00:27:22.505 --> 00:27:23.725
on a computer fresh,

423
00:27:24.185 --> 00:27:31.405
is something that I probably do way more often than most. But even that, like, thirty minutes is fine. You just said it. You walk away. Like, who the hell cares?

424
00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:33.020
Yeah.

425
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:38.620
I I think the additional thing that makes compact block filters so nice

426
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:39.420
is

427
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:41.900
that you don't need to configure it.

428
00:27:42.360 --> 00:27:52.665
For Electron servers, either you use a public one and you need to actually choose one. Either the developer chooses it for the user or the user actually has to think about it.

429
00:27:53.205 --> 00:28:04.020
Or the second use case is or the second possibility is the user runs their own Electrum server, then they have to actually put in this connection string. Right? They they have to type it in.

430
00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:08.900
And both is a friction point. For compact block filters,

431
00:28:09.600 --> 00:28:10.900
this just goes away.

432
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:17.300
If you're connecting to random Bitcoin nodes out there, there's there's nothing to configure.

433
00:28:19.665 --> 00:28:22.085
Only if you want to connect to your

434
00:28:22.545 --> 00:28:24.325
your own Bitcoin nodes,

435
00:28:24.705 --> 00:28:27.045
running on your network, then you have to add that.

436
00:28:27.425 --> 00:28:34.810
So So even if you that's tricky. If you if you use Bitcoin safe to connect to your own node, you're still using compact block filters as the protocol?

437
00:28:35.750 --> 00:28:37.610
It's an option right now,

438
00:28:38.070 --> 00:28:39.530
as it is. It

439
00:28:39.910 --> 00:28:42.010
cannot use your own node exclusively,

440
00:28:42.870 --> 00:28:46.730
but it can add your own node to the pool of nodes

441
00:28:47.030 --> 00:28:48.330
that it's it's using.

442
00:28:49.015 --> 00:28:49.835
Got it.

443
00:28:51.415 --> 00:28:52.554
Why would you do that?

444
00:28:55.575 --> 00:28:56.615
Rob, I think that's a

445
00:28:57.255 --> 00:28:58.215
the question for you,

446
00:28:59.335 --> 00:29:03.035
about the design decision about this pool of initial peers.

447
00:29:04.790 --> 00:29:06.250
Why why would we do what?

448
00:29:07.030 --> 00:29:09.110
Attach the What advantages in this

449
00:29:09.590 --> 00:29:18.915
if if you're gonna use compact block filters anyway, what incentive do you have to really use your own node in that situation? Like, why am I even adding my node to the pool? Well, if you do have one,

450
00:29:20.255 --> 00:29:22.115
like, let's go back to the travel example.

451
00:29:22.415 --> 00:29:25.795
And you can Andreas, you can take the opportunity

452
00:29:26.095 --> 00:29:30.035
to show that Bitcoin safe, all data is encrypted at rest. So,

453
00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:33.940
even even if you're you're,

454
00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.240
held up as But see I mean, same with

455
00:29:38.980 --> 00:29:42.920
yeah. I mean, I guess, Sparrow, it's optional if it's encrypted at rest.

456
00:29:45.555 --> 00:29:47.795
Yeah. But sorry. Short short aside. I just wanted

457
00:29:48.275 --> 00:29:52.695
but, why why connect to your own node? If Yeah. If you know regionally you're close,

458
00:29:53.075 --> 00:29:53.895
to your node,

459
00:29:55.555 --> 00:30:00.510
then your download times will be faster. I mean, just lower latency is is a is a nice,

460
00:30:01.370 --> 00:30:03.390
a nice property of the protocol. Because, again,

461
00:30:04.010 --> 00:30:06.350
it's all peer to peer. So

462
00:30:07.130 --> 00:30:14.350
you it's kind of a luck of the draw thing. I mean, you could be connecting to somebody halfway around the world, or you could be connecting to your neighbor.

463
00:30:14.945 --> 00:30:17.845
You you don't have a lot of say in in how this,

464
00:30:19.025 --> 00:30:19.845
you know, actually

465
00:30:20.305 --> 00:30:29.445
occurs. I mean, I've thought about adding features, similar to Bitcoin cores, like AS map in the future, where, you know, you could target specifically, like, oh, I want AWS,

466
00:30:30.679 --> 00:30:33.419
US East. Like, give me a node from there.

467
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:34.220
But,

468
00:30:34.679 --> 00:30:36.679
you know, that really over over,

469
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:39.020
complicates, I think, the peer selection.

470
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:39.980
So

471
00:30:40.840 --> 00:30:43.240
why you would connect to your own node just it's,

472
00:30:44.015 --> 00:30:44.915
could be faster.

473
00:30:45.295 --> 00:30:47.875
Also, it's very easy to configure. It's only two,

474
00:30:49.455 --> 00:30:51.315
two lines near Bitcoin config,

475
00:30:51.615 --> 00:30:52.735
and you you have,

476
00:30:53.215 --> 00:30:54.355
compact block filters.

477
00:30:54.815 --> 00:31:01.799
So Got it. Well, two lines for re indexing. You have to enable it on the node side first. Right? And then you put it in the configuration information,

478
00:31:02.179 --> 00:31:04.840
like, Bitcoin safe side or Bitcoin key other side. Right?

479
00:31:05.299 --> 00:31:09.480
Yep. Bitcoin safe, you you basically can can add your own IP.

480
00:31:10.020 --> 00:31:11.720
But, I mean, it it's

481
00:31:13.065 --> 00:31:16.684
still I I would argue that maybe that's not even necessary if if

482
00:31:17.065 --> 00:31:21.164
you are in a a densely populated area like The US. Odds are

483
00:31:21.465 --> 00:31:25.245
you probably are are gonna find some some pretty fast nodes

484
00:31:25.625 --> 00:31:27.885
in your area. If you're in a bit more rural

485
00:31:28.250 --> 00:31:29.550
of a country or region,

486
00:31:31.370 --> 00:31:31.870
then

487
00:31:32.490 --> 00:31:34.590
then, adding your own node could be an advantage.

488
00:31:35.530 --> 00:31:40.030
But that's kind of the beauty about this protocol is, like, you just connect to anyone,

489
00:31:40.410 --> 00:31:42.750
and, they could be helpful to you potentially.

490
00:31:43.245 --> 00:31:52.705
Yeah. I mean, I have a better framing of the question. Why if you're running your own node that's serving compact block filters, why why do you need the pool of nodes? Why don't you just

491
00:31:53.645 --> 00:31:58.385
take the block filters from your node and just use your own like, why do you need other nodes?

492
00:32:00.300 --> 00:32:04.720
I mean, if you wanna send a transaction, you you can do a little bit of, like, transaction origin

493
00:32:05.260 --> 00:32:08.240
obfuscation because, I mean, if it's coming from your home node,

494
00:32:09.340 --> 00:32:13.920
like, if your private like, if your compact block filter node is just sending directly to your home node,

495
00:32:15.404 --> 00:32:17.664
then, to any to any, like, passive observer,

496
00:32:17.965 --> 00:32:26.625
they're basically associating that with with your home node. Whereas you can There's more for the broadcast side, not for the receive side. Yeah. I think that's one one potential,

497
00:32:28.390 --> 00:32:28.890
benefit,

498
00:32:29.590 --> 00:32:31.050
to having having the pool.

499
00:32:31.430 --> 00:32:34.250
Also, just if your home node has happens to go down,

500
00:32:35.830 --> 00:32:38.570
it it can help to have a little bit of redundancy there.

501
00:32:40.144 --> 00:32:44.404
Yeah. To your point, if, like, if you wanna just do one connection with one

502
00:32:44.865 --> 00:32:47.445
home node, I don't see any problem with that either.

503
00:32:48.304 --> 00:32:50.485
You just maybe get lose a little bit of

504
00:32:51.745 --> 00:32:52.965
a transaction broadcast

505
00:32:53.345 --> 00:32:53.845
anonymization.

506
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:56.380
Got it.

507
00:32:56.919 --> 00:33:00.700
Okay. That makes that makes sense to me. Okay. But back to Bitcoin safe,

508
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:09.260
I mean, I think well, first off, why hardware only? Why can't you make a hot wallet

509
00:33:10.915 --> 00:33:13.415
on it? Why was that design decision made?

510
00:33:14.515 --> 00:33:15.335
Yeah. So

511
00:33:16.275 --> 00:33:19.975
Bitcoin safe focuses on this cold storage use case,

512
00:33:20.835 --> 00:33:25.335
for for savings or for for Bitcoin treasuries of organizations.

513
00:33:26.340 --> 00:33:26.840
And,

514
00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:31.880
their hot seats are just not safe.

515
00:33:32.340 --> 00:33:34.360
For for any large amount of money,

516
00:33:35.540 --> 00:33:38.840
saving a a seat on the computer is is is not a good idea.

517
00:33:39.465 --> 00:33:41.965
And nowadays, there are so many good

518
00:33:42.265 --> 00:33:44.045
hardware wallets or hardware signers,

519
00:33:45.065 --> 00:33:45.565
that's,

520
00:33:46.424 --> 00:33:50.445
this is this is just the way to go for any any large amounts of money.

521
00:33:51.780 --> 00:33:53.160
And Bitcoin Safe,

522
00:33:54.260 --> 00:33:58.680
supports all of the major hardware signers or all of the QR standards,

523
00:33:59.300 --> 00:34:02.360
USB or file. It supports all of that

524
00:34:03.140 --> 00:34:03.940
to make this,

525
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:05.640
as easy as possible.

526
00:34:06.645 --> 00:34:09.865
And for for individuals, it also offers,

527
00:34:10.565 --> 00:34:11.865
a wanted setup wizard

528
00:34:12.325 --> 00:34:16.825
to guide a user through setting up a single sig or also multisig,

529
00:34:18.085 --> 00:34:23.430
such that at the end of this wizard, after the step by step process, they can be sure it's set up correctly

530
00:34:23.890 --> 00:34:28.150
and, they can trust that they can send larger funds inside.

531
00:34:28.610 --> 00:34:30.550
Because in this setup wizard,

532
00:34:30.930 --> 00:34:31.430
they

533
00:34:31.970 --> 00:34:37.984
have a receive test and they also have send tests where they have to test every hardware signer. So they

534
00:34:38.684 --> 00:34:41.505
they they tested all of their devices. They know it works.

535
00:34:43.244 --> 00:34:44.545
And that way, they can

536
00:34:44.924 --> 00:34:51.904
they don't do it the first time with with large amount of money. They did it already with a smaller amount of money in these test transactions.

537
00:34:53.170 --> 00:34:57.590
Got it. So it's I mean, it's just trying to guide the user towards best practices.

538
00:34:59.410 --> 00:35:01.910
I mean so I think what would be helpful here is,

539
00:35:05.105 --> 00:35:06.805
for the use case that you,

540
00:35:07.905 --> 00:35:08.724
are targeting,

541
00:35:09.505 --> 00:35:12.325
I mean, the gold standard is, clearly Sparrow.

542
00:35:12.785 --> 00:35:13.444
I think

543
00:35:14.065 --> 00:35:20.610
I mean, that I'm using Sparrow for this use case. I think probably the majority of the freaks are using Spiro for this use case.

544
00:35:22.270 --> 00:35:24.450
What's the differentiator? Like, why

545
00:35:25.470 --> 00:35:34.545
why should someone consider Bitcoin say I mean, look. I've quite I'm not being I'm not trying to be discouraging. Like, more options are better. Like, god forbid

546
00:35:35.005 --> 00:35:36.704
Craig gets hit by a bus or something.

547
00:35:38.684 --> 00:35:41.505
I don't want, like, this whole industry relying on a single man.

548
00:35:42.204 --> 00:35:42.704
But,

549
00:35:43.530 --> 00:35:45.070
like, clearly, there's a differentiator

550
00:35:45.370 --> 00:35:49.710
there. What what is why should someone consider Bitcoin safe over something like Spiro?

551
00:35:50.410 --> 00:35:50.910
Yeah.

552
00:35:52.570 --> 00:35:53.070
For

553
00:35:54.250 --> 00:35:55.470
for the for

554
00:35:57.675 --> 00:35:59.275
it it it really tries to go,

555
00:36:00.395 --> 00:36:01.775
offer additional features.

556
00:36:02.555 --> 00:36:05.295
As I as I mentioned, the this wallet setup wizard,

557
00:36:08.395 --> 00:36:16.630
should enable also people who are who did not listen to the, like, ten hours of podcast to to set up a single sig or or multisig. So making this

558
00:36:17.010 --> 00:36:17.829
self custody,

559
00:36:18.530 --> 00:36:21.910
for individuals as as easy and as smooth as possible.

560
00:36:23.809 --> 00:36:25.270
And part of that is also

561
00:36:25.674 --> 00:36:26.494
private synchronization,

562
00:36:27.355 --> 00:36:28.894
using compact block filters.

563
00:36:29.515 --> 00:36:34.654
If I have to choose an Electron server, for the user because the user doesn't know how to choose one,

564
00:36:35.355 --> 00:36:38.335
so if I set a good default, right now it's it's Blockstream,

565
00:36:41.310 --> 00:36:44.050
At some time, maybe the server goes away. And

566
00:36:44.750 --> 00:36:49.810
what then? And with callback WAC filters, this problem does not exist, so that's why,

567
00:36:51.070 --> 00:36:53.010
combat WAC filters are now one synchronization

568
00:36:53.310 --> 00:36:53.810
option.

569
00:36:54.325 --> 00:36:57.225
And then for the multisig use case or even multiparty

570
00:36:57.525 --> 00:36:58.825
multisig use case,

571
00:36:59.685 --> 00:37:01.145
there's a a functionality

572
00:37:01.445 --> 00:37:02.665
called sync and chat.

573
00:37:03.125 --> 00:37:03.625
It's,

574
00:37:04.805 --> 00:37:11.560
it's a it's a kind of a discovery mechanism and a way to connect two instances of Bitcoin safe running on different computers.

575
00:37:13.700 --> 00:37:17.320
So for for multiparty, multisig use case, let's say,

576
00:37:18.340 --> 00:37:23.080
you have three people and they want to to manage a wallet together.

577
00:37:23.424 --> 00:37:25.765
Part of that is synchronizing the labels.

578
00:37:26.704 --> 00:37:30.644
Right? You you want to always have synchronized labels.

579
00:37:31.424 --> 00:37:31.924
And,

580
00:37:32.305 --> 00:37:34.244
this is this being done through

581
00:37:34.625 --> 00:37:36.964
a protocol that sits on top of Nostra.

582
00:37:38.690 --> 00:37:43.990
And the same protocol also enables if the people want to sign a PSVT together,

583
00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:48.309
that they can send the PSVT over the same encrypted channel,

584
00:37:49.089 --> 00:37:50.230
to the other person,

585
00:37:51.455 --> 00:37:53.235
so the signatures can be collected.

586
00:37:54.335 --> 00:37:56.175
That's awesome. I mean, like, right now

587
00:37:57.695 --> 00:37:58.755
yeah. Like, right now

588
00:37:59.855 --> 00:38:04.835
I mean, if you're using Sparrow for this use case, you're basically just copying and pasting PSBTs into signal.

589
00:38:06.310 --> 00:38:06.810
Right.

590
00:38:07.510 --> 00:38:09.910
And it also has an integrated chat,

591
00:38:10.310 --> 00:38:14.010
that is it's supposed to be just for this use case to coordinate

592
00:38:14.790 --> 00:38:15.770
the the signing.

593
00:38:16.710 --> 00:38:19.930
It's, what you can write, like, hey. I want to sign now. Are you

594
00:38:20.265 --> 00:38:22.045
online? The person writes back.

595
00:38:22.424 --> 00:38:24.525
And so are those basically master DMs?

596
00:38:25.865 --> 00:38:27.724
Yep. It's it's SNP 17.

597
00:38:28.825 --> 00:38:29.565
Got it.

598
00:38:30.345 --> 00:38:30.845
It's,

599
00:38:32.025 --> 00:38:32.924
it's however,

600
00:38:34.025 --> 00:38:35.325
it's it's not supposed

601
00:38:35.690 --> 00:38:42.590
to that you you're putting your NSAC from your amethyst or some other Right. Master app. It creates a completely random NSAC,

602
00:38:43.690 --> 00:38:45.870
and it's supposed to be only used for this,

603
00:38:47.290 --> 00:38:48.190
to to minimize,

604
00:38:48.890 --> 00:38:50.190
where where your NSAC,

605
00:38:51.335 --> 00:38:54.394
is Yeah. And you don't want It's only living in encrypted wallet file.

606
00:38:54.694 --> 00:38:55.194
Right.

607
00:38:56.295 --> 00:39:00.154
Yeah. And it's it's this this NSAC is only living in the encrypted wallet file.

608
00:39:01.095 --> 00:39:01.595
Got

609
00:39:02.135 --> 00:39:05.994
it. It's generated when you set up Bitcoin safe. Exactly.

610
00:39:08.120 --> 00:39:11.900
Okay. That'll make sense to me. Have you talked to Craig at all about

611
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:16.460
why they why he hasn't implemented Compact, but have either of you?

612
00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:26.485
I can speak on that a little bit. So I guess Okay. I can also take the time to show twenty one forty. So how I'm currently supported,

613
00:39:27.105 --> 00:39:30.645
previously, it was partially OpenSAT. So, of course, thanks for that.

614
00:39:31.105 --> 00:39:32.005
But Cheers.

615
00:39:32.710 --> 00:39:34.550
Right now, I'm employed by,

616
00:39:35.030 --> 00:39:36.090
twenty one forty,

617
00:39:37.430 --> 00:39:38.810
and The Netherlands.

618
00:39:39.670 --> 00:39:41.370
So I think the best way

619
00:39:42.070 --> 00:39:44.650
to put twenty one forty is we're kind of a developer

620
00:39:45.275 --> 00:39:45.855
collective, let's say.

621
00:39:47.035 --> 00:39:50.175
We all kind of work on protocols that we find,

622
00:39:50.555 --> 00:39:52.095
interesting and try and learn,

623
00:39:52.475 --> 00:39:58.175
from each other. But it's mostly just a set of independent people kind of working on what we find interesting.

624
00:39:58.475 --> 00:40:00.095
It's like chain code of the north.

625
00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:04.080
Chain code of, yeah. Chain code of The Netherlands. Yeah.

626
00:40:06.860 --> 00:40:11.360
Although I think New York is probably colder in the winter than The Netherlands, like, ironically. But,

627
00:40:12.220 --> 00:40:13.660
yeah. Chain code of the north.

628
00:40:14.940 --> 00:40:15.440
So,

629
00:40:17.305 --> 00:40:19.405
I I completely forgot the question. What,

630
00:40:20.025 --> 00:40:25.565
No. Why doesn't Craig use so Craig right now So he came using Electrum servers, and, specifically,

631
00:40:26.185 --> 00:40:28.125
he, like, picks a sane default

632
00:40:28.770 --> 00:40:30.710
public election servers. There's, like, Blockstream,

633
00:40:31.090 --> 00:40:32.070
MZ, mempool.

634
00:40:32.610 --> 00:40:34.950
Okay. People that probably aren't spying on you.

635
00:40:35.410 --> 00:40:39.350
Yeah. So okay. I as I okay. Maybe it was Chatham House rules,

636
00:40:41.605 --> 00:40:45.225
when he came, but, basically, he joined us for for a silent payments,

637
00:40:45.845 --> 00:40:46.345
dev,

638
00:40:47.125 --> 00:40:48.585
kinda workshop week.

639
00:40:49.045 --> 00:40:49.545
And,

640
00:40:50.485 --> 00:41:00.070
I mean, obviously, a incredibly brilliant dev. Like, the stuff that he turns out and like, he just showed up and was like, oh, I have, like, a silent payments server side scanner.

641
00:41:01.010 --> 00:41:08.070
And we're like, oh, that's that's awesome. Like, you know, something that would take a normal dev, like, I don't know, maybe six months he does in, like, a week or something.

642
00:41:08.955 --> 00:41:16.575
But I think the primary thing is well, for one, he like you said, he kind of has he has the gold standard of a wallet. So any feature he adds,

643
00:41:17.115 --> 00:41:18.015
he has to

644
00:41:19.275 --> 00:41:21.535
like, he he can't just retract it later.

645
00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:25.920
So it has to be very thoroughly thought out. It has to be really well implemented,

646
00:41:26.779 --> 00:41:28.240
or else, you know,

647
00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:30.640
he doesn't really have the opportunity to just

648
00:41:30.940 --> 00:41:34.960
remove it and then have like, he he's everything. He's, like, customer support,

649
00:41:35.260 --> 00:41:36.559
dev, all of it.

650
00:41:37.955 --> 00:41:38.455
So

651
00:41:38.835 --> 00:41:40.535
all features are really thoroughly

652
00:41:40.835 --> 00:41:44.855
thought through, and I think the impression is that compact block filters

653
00:41:45.315 --> 00:41:46.855
are going to be too slow,

654
00:41:47.635 --> 00:41:50.375
and not responsive enough on the user side.

655
00:41:51.450 --> 00:41:54.109
But I've gone to, like, really great lengths to,

656
00:41:55.210 --> 00:42:12.025
you know, pass as much information as I can to Andreas. Like, here's what's happening. The node is at this block height. The node is downloading this. The node got got this block. So So as much as we can inform the user is what's going on, and then also I, like So they, like, see it loading, basically. Right? Yes.

657
00:42:12.485 --> 00:42:12.985
So

658
00:42:13.525 --> 00:42:15.385
and and then the other thing is he's

659
00:42:15.765 --> 00:42:28.800
he's a wallet develop like, he's the whole thing, the UI, the wallet functionality, signing PSBTs and stuff. I was afforded the the luxury of just implementing on the node side. How can we make this as as best as we can,

660
00:42:29.420 --> 00:42:31.360
some sort of compact block filter implementation?

661
00:42:31.865 --> 00:42:35.005
And so because of that, I've had a bunch of time to focus on performance,

662
00:42:35.464 --> 00:42:38.204
what works, what doesn't work, and I've tried to make it as,

663
00:42:38.664 --> 00:42:40.684
like, as fast and seamless as possible,

664
00:42:41.785 --> 00:42:43.484
which I I just don't think,

665
00:42:43.785 --> 00:42:51.500
a wallet dev that's doing the full stack, they don't have time to do that. I mean, it's just not realistic. But do you think he'll implement it at some point in the future? Or

666
00:42:53.660 --> 00:42:55.200
I mean, I don't know. Option?

667
00:42:55.740 --> 00:42:56.720
It could be,

668
00:42:57.100 --> 00:43:04.005
like, theoretically high level. It could be as simple as, like, an option in settings. Right? To, like, switch from Electrum to

669
00:43:04.805 --> 00:43:16.185
I I I think I mentioned that earlier. Like, I would love if every wallet just had the drop down. Like, it doesn't have to be the default if you don't want it to be, if you think it has too much friction. But I'd love for every wallet to at least have the drop down.

670
00:43:17.770 --> 00:43:18.270
So

671
00:43:18.810 --> 00:43:21.230
I I would hope so, but at the same time,

672
00:43:23.210 --> 00:43:25.550
yeah, he's he's developing the full stack,

673
00:43:26.250 --> 00:43:26.750
and

674
00:43:27.210 --> 00:43:30.030
he has already quite a bit of features that he needs to support.

675
00:43:31.615 --> 00:43:34.515
I I can see how how the risk might not be worth the reward.

676
00:43:34.815 --> 00:43:40.755
Whereas in my position, I'm I'm a 100% willing. I think privacy is of the utmost importance,

677
00:43:41.455 --> 00:43:41.955
so

678
00:43:42.495 --> 00:43:44.355
I I have time to dedicate to it.

679
00:43:46.170 --> 00:43:48.830
Yeah. I think we we could cross our fingers, hopefully.

680
00:43:51.450 --> 00:43:54.089
Got it. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't trying to,

681
00:43:57.695 --> 00:44:00.755
we're not trying to I wasn't trying to have you speak for Craig.

682
00:44:02.975 --> 00:44:03.295
And,

683
00:44:04.655 --> 00:44:15.020
but it is an interesting thing. It's it's something that I've talked to him about at length because he really does he cares deeply about user privacy and security. That's why Sparrow exists in the first place,

684
00:44:16.520 --> 00:44:19.260
and almost to a fault. Like, I've had,

685
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:25.000
large back and forths with him. Anyone who's gone through the Sparrow default setup process,

686
00:44:27.414 --> 00:44:28.315
In the beginning,

687
00:44:30.055 --> 00:44:30.875
he basically

688
00:44:32.615 --> 00:44:34.375
he first of all, he picks sane public,

689
00:44:34.775 --> 00:44:45.390
Electrum server defaults for you, but he also scares the shit out of users of using the public Electrum servers that he chooses for them. He's like, ultimately, like, if you're gonna if you actually care, you should be running your own.

690
00:44:45.930 --> 00:44:50.910
Yeah. Indeed. It's orange lights, red lights everywhere. Flashing yellow lights.

691
00:44:51.450 --> 00:44:52.270
Yeah. Yeah.

692
00:44:52.650 --> 00:45:01.845
And which I respect, but also, like, I mean, now that we have compact block filters, it sounds like this is a could be a better trade off balance for the overwhelming majority users.

693
00:45:02.145 --> 00:45:03.605
But up until this point,

694
00:45:05.905 --> 00:45:13.240
for a lot of users, like, using Blockstream or mempool spaces node is was probably good enough and not warranting yellow lights. And,

695
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:19.480
I have you know, I I know those guys personally, and I'm

696
00:45:20.260 --> 00:45:24.820
relatively confident that they're they're not actively keeping logs. I mean, there's no way to prove it. But,

697
00:45:25.855 --> 00:45:27.235
if you're just some random

698
00:45:28.335 --> 00:45:31.715
smaller time user, like, you're probably fine doing that.

699
00:45:32.895 --> 00:45:38.115
So, yeah, anyway, I had a lot of back and forth with him, but it seems like it'd be right up his alley, which is why it's interesting.

700
00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:43.880
But, also, I I can see how he wants to wait and see you know, let it kinda get

701
00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:50.360
proven in the wild before he adds more tech debt to his already

702
00:45:50.660 --> 00:45:51.160
established

703
00:45:51.620 --> 00:45:53.160
heavily used wallet. Right?

704
00:45:53.685 --> 00:45:55.625
Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the market,

705
00:45:56.085 --> 00:45:57.465
so to speak, needs to

706
00:45:57.925 --> 00:46:01.785
pick it up. Like, the user is gonna do the least friction option.

707
00:46:02.645 --> 00:46:03.385
So I think

708
00:46:04.165 --> 00:46:05.705
it's more of my

709
00:46:06.410 --> 00:46:11.710
and others' responsibility as developers to make it the most or at least as frictionless,

710
00:46:14.090 --> 00:46:14.830
at which

711
00:46:15.370 --> 00:46:18.490
point you can kind of interchange between the two. Because

712
00:46:19.235 --> 00:46:24.455
yeah, I I just don't think it's realistic for for the user to opt into privacy. Like, the the average

713
00:46:24.995 --> 00:46:25.495
Joe

714
00:46:25.875 --> 00:46:28.295
is gonna pick the thing that that syncs the fastest.

715
00:46:29.075 --> 00:46:40.100
Right. So my my goal is is to make it as comfortable. And and like you said, yeah, I don't think anyone is recording logs right now, nor do I think people really care about those logs, like, nor do I think any

716
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:42.020
companies would actually buy them.

717
00:46:42.560 --> 00:47:07.940
But if we think or if if Bitcoin does what what we think it's gonna do, then all of a sudden that data becomes a lot more interesting. Yeah. More valuable. So, yeah, I I would I would say it's more of a future planning, than than a current problem. Well, I would say there are wallets that just, like, naively pick random Electrum nodes, And that that's probably a horrible idea. There probably are some that are logging.

718
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:12.900
Chain analysis has been you know, chain surveillance firms have been known to run them.

719
00:47:14.240 --> 00:47:18.580
That's why it's just like it was a very sane low lift thing for him to do is to just

720
00:47:19.015 --> 00:47:21.755
pick a white list of reputable ones.

721
00:47:23.015 --> 00:47:36.780
But, yeah, once again, that only goes so far. It's similar to the VPN trust model. Right? It's like there's no way for you to prove for a hosted VPN trust model. There's no way for you to prove if if the host is not doing logs. There's no way for them to even prove it.

722
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:40.300
So you go based just on on reputation.

723
00:47:41.560 --> 00:47:42.540
And, ideally,

724
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:44.700
we can get past that.

725
00:47:45.435 --> 00:47:49.855
And so, like, Obscura on the VPN side is trying to get past that by using MoleVAD,

726
00:47:50.555 --> 00:47:54.735
and the compact block filters is kind of a way to remove that trust,

727
00:47:56.075 --> 00:47:59.375
trade off that you have if you're not running your own node, which is pretty cool.

728
00:48:02.070 --> 00:48:02.790
Awesome. I,

729
00:48:05.670 --> 00:48:06.730
I forgot to go.

730
00:48:07.110 --> 00:48:10.490
Well, before you jump in, just real quick, twenty one forty is awesome.

731
00:48:10.870 --> 00:48:12.490
I feel like I cut that off.

732
00:48:12.870 --> 00:48:14.195
I love what what,

733
00:48:14.595 --> 00:48:17.815
Josie and and Ruben you guys are building out there.

734
00:48:19.395 --> 00:48:24.215
And, you're still kind of supported by OpenSats because we, helped bootstrap,

735
00:48:24.995 --> 00:48:29.415
them. In a small way, we helped bootstrap them. We're it's really cool to see,

736
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:33.720
more and more dev initiatives kinda sprout out because, ideally,

737
00:48:34.339 --> 00:48:36.920
just like I'm I have concern of

738
00:48:37.380 --> 00:48:39.160
Craig getting hit by a bus,

739
00:48:40.180 --> 00:48:48.635
you know, like, god forbid something happens to OpenSats. Like, we need as many we need as many organizations as possible, all doing it slightly different ways too, which is cool.

740
00:48:49.655 --> 00:48:52.155
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think the cool thing about

741
00:48:53.095 --> 00:49:00.200
what's happening here at twenty one forty is the in person aspect. I mean, some people really like how the open source,

742
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:08.700
workflow, you can do it completely remotely, but that's just not really the type of person that I am. I like to be in an office and and talk to people.

743
00:49:09.160 --> 00:49:09.660
And

744
00:49:10.175 --> 00:49:12.035
I think it's there's sort of

745
00:49:12.335 --> 00:49:17.395
a a theory that you could subscribe to where you have a bunch of great minds. They may,

746
00:49:17.775 --> 00:49:18.275
you

747
00:49:18.655 --> 00:49:20.115
know, sum to, like,

748
00:49:20.734 --> 00:49:25.180
one, but if you put them all together, we sum to, like, two. Right? Like,

749
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:27.420
the the effects of,

750
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:39.055
the mind share kind of compound on the on the top. Plus one equals three is, I think, what you're talking about. Yeah. Exactly. One plus one is equal to three. And I I do like, as as corny as that sounds, I do think,

751
00:49:39.994 --> 00:49:43.455
that's that's what's happening here, where the amount of,

752
00:49:44.075 --> 00:49:45.615
round trips I have to do

753
00:49:45.994 --> 00:49:59.650
is so much fewer. I don't have to wait for someone's response or any of that. I can have a live conversation even passively, like at lunch. We all go out for lunch, and you can talk an idea through and sort of rubber duck it. And I I think that,

754
00:50:00.285 --> 00:50:01.744
you know, as many organizations

755
00:50:02.125 --> 00:50:04.224
as as we can get, like, twenty one forty

756
00:50:04.605 --> 00:50:05.265
up, I think,

757
00:50:05.805 --> 00:50:10.224
will really be an improvement to to the open source kind of development community because,

758
00:50:11.164 --> 00:50:15.345
yeah, there there's just a lot of value in in talking ideas through in person

759
00:50:15.849 --> 00:50:19.390
and, you know, either getting something knocked or act like in real life,

760
00:50:19.849 --> 00:50:24.349
because the the typical remote flow is is relatively slow.

761
00:50:25.050 --> 00:50:29.869
No. 100% cosign. I mean, that's why Bitcoin Park exists. Physical interaction is

762
00:50:30.355 --> 00:50:33.095
an incredibly important part of the human experience.

763
00:50:34.675 --> 00:50:37.095
Andreas, I cut you off. You wanted to jump

764
00:50:37.475 --> 00:50:37.975
in?

765
00:50:38.435 --> 00:50:38.835
Yeah.

766
00:50:40.275 --> 00:50:40.775
So

767
00:50:41.315 --> 00:50:42.135
Rob mentioned

768
00:50:42.515 --> 00:50:43.015
that,

769
00:50:43.635 --> 00:50:46.560
the the user is going to the least friction option.

770
00:50:47.660 --> 00:50:48.160
So

771
00:50:49.020 --> 00:50:52.800
right now, in Bitcoin safe, the Electron server is still the default,

772
00:50:53.420 --> 00:50:53.900
but,

773
00:50:54.220 --> 00:50:57.680
the plan is actually to make it the to make compact box filters,

774
00:50:58.300 --> 00:50:59.040
the default.

775
00:50:59.865 --> 00:51:00.845
And for this,

776
00:51:02.265 --> 00:51:02.765
there's,

777
00:51:03.305 --> 00:51:06.125
a a lot of design work actually left for BitCoinSafe.

778
00:51:06.425 --> 00:51:08.365
There's actually a a designer joined,

779
00:51:09.065 --> 00:51:09.805
the project

780
00:51:10.265 --> 00:51:12.765
to to help improve the user experience.

781
00:51:14.099 --> 00:51:15.799
And, there, I think

782
00:51:16.180 --> 00:51:20.839
the the next big thing is to to work on the design in the UX to make

783
00:51:21.140 --> 00:51:22.440
compact block filters,

784
00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:24.839
like, by default natural,

785
00:51:25.299 --> 00:51:27.799
and that this half hour recovery sync

786
00:51:28.795 --> 00:51:29.535
is not,

787
00:51:29.995 --> 00:51:36.255
like like, a not felt as a disadvantage, but it's explained to the user what's happening, why is it good that they're waiting,

788
00:51:37.275 --> 00:51:38.975
to to to make this

789
00:51:39.275 --> 00:51:42.575
as low friction as possible and that people go with this

790
00:51:42.910 --> 00:51:44.610
more private option by default.

791
00:51:47.150 --> 00:51:51.250
And, yeah, once again, to be clear, you can just check a box like, no. This is a new wallet.

792
00:51:51.790 --> 00:51:53.310
You don't need to to do this,

793
00:51:53.710 --> 00:51:55.424
background sync. But, yes.

794
00:51:55.885 --> 00:52:00.444
Yeah. Yeah. Just I mean, just for the recovery use case. Yeah. Is there is there,

795
00:52:02.365 --> 00:52:06.924
well, first of all, so you're using Electrum servers by default. Are you doing the same thing that,

796
00:52:07.780 --> 00:52:09.140
Craig is doing? You're, like, picking

797
00:52:09.780 --> 00:52:11.640
how are you picking the Electrum servers?

798
00:52:12.500 --> 00:52:18.360
The default is the the Blockstream one, but, of course, you can configure it to any Electrum server you want.

799
00:52:19.460 --> 00:52:24.325
Yeah. I mean, the two best from the three best from my experience is Blockstream, mem pool, and,

800
00:52:25.424 --> 00:52:25.924
MZ.

801
00:52:27.904 --> 00:52:29.684
Mem pool one is unfortunately

802
00:52:29.984 --> 00:52:30.484
not

803
00:52:30.865 --> 00:52:32.805
available on main net for free.

804
00:52:33.904 --> 00:52:35.684
Oh, you started charging for it?

805
00:52:36.620 --> 00:52:37.920
As far as I know.

806
00:52:39.580 --> 00:52:41.840
I'll talk to Wiz about that. Interesting.

807
00:52:42.620 --> 00:52:43.120
Okay.

808
00:52:44.220 --> 00:52:44.380
I

809
00:52:45.580 --> 00:52:46.080
what,

810
00:52:47.980 --> 00:52:49.840
that's interesting. I didn't realize that.

811
00:52:50.715 --> 00:52:51.215
The

812
00:52:53.195 --> 00:52:58.975
on the compact block filter side, if you are syncing a past wallet, does it do what is it like a,

813
00:53:00.875 --> 00:53:02.495
is there, like, a birth height

814
00:53:02.810 --> 00:53:12.350
thing that you put in or something? Or is it only segued outputs? Is it only Taproot outputs? Is there, like, a way to limit the amount of blocks that you're actually filtering through to?

815
00:53:13.530 --> 00:53:17.395
So it detects the script type. So, like, legacy,

816
00:53:17.935 --> 00:53:25.714
segue to type root, and then it uses the block height that makes sense. So, like, segue start or type root start or Genesys.

817
00:53:26.494 --> 00:53:39.460
But, like, presumably, I could keep the birth height of my wallet, and then when I restore it, the sync the restore sync would be quicker. Right? I mean, I obviously, that's a power user thing. Like, I don't think most people are gonna keep the birth height with their seeds. But

818
00:53:40.740 --> 00:53:42.420
It's not yet possible, but,

819
00:53:42.980 --> 00:53:43.460
I think,

820
00:53:43.940 --> 00:53:49.924
you're working on it to make it possible. Yeah. So, on on the binding side, I just opened a PR for this,

821
00:53:50.404 --> 00:53:51.865
like, hours ago,

822
00:53:52.404 --> 00:53:54.345
to just add, like, some sort of arbitrary

823
00:53:54.805 --> 00:53:58.825
kind of, like, height. But the thing is for compact block filters, since

824
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:01.339
you're actually talking the peer to peer network,

825
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:05.660
you don't really talk in heights. You you need you need a hash. Right? So,

826
00:54:07.720 --> 00:54:11.339
you would I mean, I guess, presumably, you would like ping a,

827
00:54:12.200 --> 00:54:19.765
yeah, like a mempool server, mempool dot space. Hey. Hey. What is the hash for this height? And then take that and start your sync.

828
00:54:21.825 --> 00:54:23.765
But, yeah, as you said, I think

829
00:54:24.305 --> 00:54:31.130
I I have no idea, like, when when I received my first SAT. Right? Like, it it's kind of hard

830
00:54:31.990 --> 00:54:33.210
to record a birthday.

831
00:54:34.470 --> 00:54:42.885
So, honestly, I think the safest option is just start from Segwit. But, yeah, if you're if you're a power user and you have a height, that's definitely something that we're we're gonna add as a future.

832
00:54:43.605 --> 00:54:46.585
Well, I mean, we've seen this in shitcoin land.

833
00:54:47.645 --> 00:54:48.145
Like,

834
00:54:51.205 --> 00:54:51.705
both

835
00:54:52.085 --> 00:54:52.585
both,

836
00:54:53.045 --> 00:54:56.920
Monero and Zcash have trade offs in how they handle syncs,

837
00:54:58.099 --> 00:54:59.799
where it's incredibly computationally

838
00:55:00.339 --> 00:55:00.839
intensive

839
00:55:01.220 --> 00:55:02.119
to do syncs.

840
00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:03.079
Mhmm.

841
00:55:04.099 --> 00:55:11.515
And so they, like, they inform they they, like, tell the user when they're recording their seed backup that, like, here's the here's the birth height of your wallet.

842
00:55:12.615 --> 00:55:13.995
Okay. That's pretty neat.

843
00:55:15.015 --> 00:55:20.055
Yeah. So there is some precedent. I'm not saying that's user friendly. I'm just saying that there that there is,

844
00:55:20.535 --> 00:55:22.475
there is precedent on that front.

845
00:55:22.850 --> 00:55:27.910
Yeah. I mean, you gotta write down stuff anyway or or stamp stuff or however you do it. And,

846
00:55:28.290 --> 00:55:33.990
you know, you might have a pen or something. So, I mean, some some extra numbers, maybe not that big of a deal.

847
00:55:36.005 --> 00:55:39.945
But, yeah, the the birthday concept is definitely something that that we're gonna add soon.

848
00:55:40.245 --> 00:55:42.825
And it probably becomes more helpful,

849
00:55:43.445 --> 00:55:45.705
like, the further we get away from

850
00:55:46.165 --> 00:55:50.425
SegWit and Taproot. Right? Like, if it's ten years in the future Yeah. 100%.

851
00:55:51.450 --> 00:55:52.430
Then it compounds.

852
00:55:53.050 --> 00:55:54.990
Yes. I'm just, to think about.

853
00:55:55.450 --> 00:55:58.330
The, yeah, the drawback of the protocol is that,

854
00:55:59.210 --> 00:56:00.670
the data you need to scan

855
00:56:01.210 --> 00:56:05.070
increases linearly with with time. You know? TikTok, next block. Yeah.

856
00:56:05.690 --> 00:56:07.155
We gotta check everyone.

857
00:56:08.655 --> 00:56:12.115
I mean, there is some really cool research about maybe how we could make this better,

858
00:56:13.695 --> 00:56:16.915
but I would say it's very academic and just kinda far out.

859
00:56:17.535 --> 00:56:20.835
What what happens if people I know they're not supposed to,

860
00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:23.980
and I'm sorry. These are stupid questions, but I'm just

861
00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:29.000
bringing them up as they come to my mind myself. What if a user is, like, receiving

862
00:56:29.800 --> 00:56:32.060
they're not supposed to reuse addresses, but

863
00:56:32.520 --> 00:56:33.980
they reuse an address

864
00:56:35.315 --> 00:56:37.175
that's, like, way deep in their index.

865
00:56:39.075 --> 00:56:43.255
Is is are you accounting for that, or are you just assuming they're not gonna do that?

866
00:56:45.075 --> 00:56:46.275
As in so

867
00:56:47.810 --> 00:56:53.590
Let's say so, like, first sync is the longest because I'm, like, literally checking all of my addresses that I've used.

868
00:56:53.970 --> 00:56:54.470
Yes.

869
00:56:54.850 --> 00:56:55.350
Right?

870
00:56:55.890 --> 00:56:59.750
And and and and I mean, I'm checking back behind time.

871
00:57:00.210 --> 00:57:02.470
But let's say I'm just using Bitcoin safe,

872
00:57:03.095 --> 00:57:07.914
and I've generated a thousand wallet a thousand addresses, and I'm not I'm not,

873
00:57:09.815 --> 00:57:16.635
not recovering it fresh. I'm just just chugging along, using my wallet. I've been using my wallet for four years, five years. I have a thousand addresses.

874
00:57:17.190 --> 00:57:18.650
And then some vendor

875
00:57:19.270 --> 00:57:26.890
or let's say I'm a plumber. Some customer pays an address like Index 3 or something, like, the third address or fourth address I ever used.

876
00:57:29.445 --> 00:57:31.545
I think Electrum counts for that already.

877
00:57:33.845 --> 00:57:39.865
Yeah. So I mean compact blocks count of count for that? Like, are you checking the old addresses? Are you routinely checking the old addresses?

878
00:57:40.405 --> 00:57:41.785
Yeah. Yeah. A 100%.

879
00:57:41.925 --> 00:57:42.425
Yeah.

880
00:57:43.349 --> 00:57:44.650
You will not miss that.

881
00:57:44.950 --> 00:57:46.390
Yeah. I mean, you don't

882
00:57:47.109 --> 00:57:48.250
I mean yeah.

883
00:57:48.869 --> 00:58:04.444
You're you're, in this scenario, your your plumber basically, like, dust attacked you or something. But yeah. But it's not a dust attack. He sent me real money in this in my theoretical example of Okay. Yeah. It The plumber You sent you sent you a refund. Your your toilet's still broken.

884
00:58:05.625 --> 00:58:14.910
Yeah. You're not gonna you're not gonna miss that money. No. And there's no performance overhead. I mean, of course, yeah, we don't don't reuse addresses, people. But yeah. No. It's not a problem. Fair enough.

885
00:58:16.010 --> 00:58:18.350
Just maybe as a, like, a speed test,

886
00:58:19.050 --> 00:58:20.750
that I did is I revealed

887
00:58:21.530 --> 00:58:22.750
20,000 addresses

888
00:58:23.675 --> 00:58:27.055
and synced the wallet on Mainnet. It took one and a half hours.

889
00:58:27.755 --> 00:58:28.895
Oh, that's not bad.

890
00:58:30.315 --> 00:58:32.234
And this is from Segwit start. So

891
00:58:33.994 --> 00:58:39.559
It's like it's this is freedom money. Like, you can wait an hour and a half for twenty thousand hours. It's just like I think

892
00:58:39.940 --> 00:58:41.559
that's, like, completely reasonable.

893
00:58:43.779 --> 00:58:48.680
And, presumably, we can make you can make it more performant than that. Right? Like, this is the worst it'll ever be.

894
00:58:50.565 --> 00:58:53.865
It depends on your Internet connection. Right? That's what I'm saying. I

895
00:58:54.165 --> 00:58:57.865
I think it's pretty Internet because yeah. I so I have, like,

896
00:59:00.165 --> 00:59:04.825
at home, I essentially have, like, a DSL connection, like, one of the worst connections,

897
00:59:05.640 --> 00:59:06.859
just like a old building.

898
00:59:07.319 --> 00:59:07.819
And

899
00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:08.779
it took

900
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:10.299
I don't know.

901
00:59:11.720 --> 00:59:16.059
I I do benchmarks all the time, but, like, at home, it it took, I don't know, maybe, like,

902
00:59:16.359 --> 00:59:17.319
45

903
00:59:17.319 --> 00:59:24.245
to an hour just with, like, an empty just, like, single script. This is just as a bandwidth test. I'm talking, like, really bad Internet.

904
00:59:26.225 --> 00:59:31.105
So really the limiter? It's not comp it's not compute. The limiter is is down,

905
00:59:31.905 --> 00:59:32.965
downstream bandwidth?

906
00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:39.900
So I I would say I'm at, like, the really low end of the bell curve of of bandwidth where my bandwidth is is pretty horrible.

907
00:59:40.680 --> 00:59:47.020
As you reach a certain bandwidth threshold, then your limiting factor will will probably be compute if you're on mobile.

908
00:59:47.405 --> 00:59:51.744
But on the desktop case, like, for Bitcoin safe, if you have, like, a one gigabit connection

909
00:59:52.525 --> 00:59:55.984
and a m four or something, you're gonna absolutely rip,

910
00:59:57.165 --> 00:59:59.025
the filters, I think.

911
01:00:00.540 --> 01:00:01.040
Got

912
01:00:04.380 --> 01:00:08.240
it. Yeah. I mean, in some cases, five g is probably faster than DSL. Right?

913
01:00:09.420 --> 01:00:09.920
Definitely.

914
01:00:10.780 --> 01:00:11.280
Yeah.

915
01:00:11.660 --> 01:00:12.160
Yeah.

916
01:00:13.675 --> 01:00:14.175
Okay.

917
01:00:16.395 --> 01:00:17.214
Fair enough.

918
01:00:19.675 --> 01:00:24.095
I have nothing on the top of my head. This has been a great conversation. Do you guys have any

919
01:00:25.270 --> 01:00:28.890
pressing topics you'd like to discuss while you're while you're here with me?

920
01:00:33.430 --> 01:00:38.330
Another yeah. Just showing twenty one forty one more time. If you happen to be in The Netherlands,

921
01:00:39.464 --> 01:00:41.565
send me an email or something. I'm Rob

922
01:00:42.105 --> 01:00:46.765
at, two one four zero dot dev, like, twenty one forty dot dev.

923
01:00:47.305 --> 01:00:47.805
Yep.

924
01:00:49.464 --> 01:00:54.250
Pretty much encapsulates what we got going on. Company is twenty one forty, and we're developers.

925
01:00:55.109 --> 01:00:56.410
So, yeah, email me

926
01:00:57.030 --> 01:01:02.950
or, yeah, hit me up on GitHub or something. I don't know. Contact me somehow. I don't have any socials or anything, but,

927
01:01:03.750 --> 01:01:06.570
yeah, we'd love to see you if you're in The Netherlands.

928
01:01:08.865 --> 01:01:11.765
And as far as privacy and stuff,

929
01:01:13.345 --> 01:01:14.245
I would say

930
01:01:14.785 --> 01:01:18.565
it's not a problem now, but let's all, let's all have a good OPSEC.

931
01:01:19.185 --> 01:01:19.685
And,

932
01:01:20.305 --> 01:01:22.005
yeah, I think I think

933
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:26.260
if even you're the average user and this is your first time considering privacy,

934
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:29.860
there's always a chance to have forward privacy.

935
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:31.700
Check out these tools.

936
01:01:32.080 --> 01:01:35.380
Do the reading. I don't think you'll regret it in the future.

937
01:01:37.035 --> 01:01:38.335
That's about it for me.

938
01:01:40.155 --> 01:01:41.375
Yeah. From my side

939
01:01:42.474 --> 01:01:44.175
yeah. From my side, I

940
01:01:44.875 --> 01:01:50.255
want to really thank the BDK team and also Rob for the incredible work they're doing.

941
01:01:50.635 --> 01:01:51.535
It's it's,

942
01:01:53.190 --> 01:02:03.530
for Bitcoin safe, I'm the developer, and there's a designer who joined. But it really feels like there's a whole team of BDK doing, like, really hard stuff supporting

943
01:02:03.910 --> 01:02:05.770
us, and that's that's really awesome.

944
01:02:06.894 --> 01:02:08.575
Yeah. That's all thanks to,

945
01:02:09.134 --> 01:02:09.795
to OpenSats

946
01:02:10.095 --> 01:02:11.234
and also Spiral,

947
01:02:12.174 --> 01:02:15.474
have been big supporters throughout this process. So thank you guys.

948
01:02:16.654 --> 01:02:19.474
You know, all this is possible with with, generous,

949
01:02:20.015 --> 01:02:21.394
orgs like that. So,

950
01:02:22.780 --> 01:02:23.280
yeah.

951
01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:28.559
Yeah. And on until the note of a thousand flowers bloom, like, one of the big things that,

952
01:02:29.339 --> 01:02:31.920
Steve has been working on is the BDK Foundation,

953
01:02:33.815 --> 01:02:39.495
so that they can be independent and sustainable on their own, which is really fucking awesome to see. It's I think it's,

954
01:02:42.215 --> 01:02:45.355
I don't know. There's just a lot of bullshit on social media,

955
01:02:47.300 --> 01:02:49.960
Mostly noise, but, like, quietly in the background,

956
01:02:50.340 --> 01:02:56.760
one of the most bullish fundamentals about Bitcoin is the growing developer ecosystem and and the distribution of it too.

957
01:02:57.220 --> 01:03:01.720
You know, like, people, like, wake up one day and they're like, oh my god. You know, chain code has three maintainers.

958
01:03:02.615 --> 01:03:05.595
It's there's been a lot of us that have been

959
01:03:06.375 --> 01:03:08.075
living and breathing this shit

960
01:03:08.454 --> 01:03:09.194
for years,

961
01:03:10.055 --> 01:03:16.795
and this is the best it's ever been, and it's only getting better from here in terms of distribution of influence and power

962
01:03:17.330 --> 01:03:18.790
and central points of failure.

963
01:03:20.290 --> 01:03:20.790
And,

964
01:03:22.930 --> 01:03:31.750
it's just a quiet grind is what it is. In the background, it's just a quiet grind, and a lot of the most legendary people in the space are very quiet themselves.

965
01:03:32.595 --> 01:03:34.135
You don't hear from them a lot,

966
01:03:36.115 --> 01:03:37.415
but they're mission focused

967
01:03:38.355 --> 01:03:44.295
on on Bitcoin. And it's just it's there's there's no other project that I have really seen like that

968
01:03:47.430 --> 01:03:52.250
in in the greater open source ecosystem. Just that you have, like, a global

969
01:03:52.630 --> 01:03:53.130
distributed

970
01:03:54.950 --> 01:03:57.210
relatively organic developer movement.

971
01:03:59.445 --> 01:04:02.105
Yeah. I think it's very mission very mission driven.

972
01:04:04.165 --> 01:04:04.665
And

973
01:04:05.125 --> 01:04:07.705
I also yeah. I think it's like whack a mole.

974
01:04:08.885 --> 01:04:11.145
At the current rate, we're going if you,

975
01:04:11.570 --> 01:04:12.070
you

976
01:04:12.370 --> 01:04:15.990
know, stop one dev, you're gonna have three more pop up. Like,

977
01:04:17.170 --> 01:04:18.630
I think we got a lot more,

978
01:04:19.650 --> 01:04:20.710
a lot more talent

979
01:04:21.250 --> 01:04:22.710
to poach. One of the things

980
01:04:23.090 --> 01:04:28.835
I wanna focus on is is going to universities and and trying to convince, you know, otherwise naive

981
01:04:29.295 --> 01:04:32.115
computer science students that they should be working on this stuff.

982
01:04:34.015 --> 01:04:36.515
And, yeah, I I think we got only room to grow.

983
01:04:38.580 --> 01:04:40.840
And from what I hear about developers,

984
01:04:41.460 --> 01:04:46.920
you know, more OGs, like, it's come a very long way. So that's exciting to see.

985
01:04:49.940 --> 01:04:53.400
Love it. Well, guys, thank you for your work. Thank you for

986
01:04:54.115 --> 01:04:54.615
building

987
01:04:54.995 --> 01:04:57.895
out Bitcoin. Thank you for joining us on dispatch.

988
01:04:58.275 --> 01:05:01.015
I enjoyed this conversation. I think the freaks will enjoy it a lot.

989
01:05:02.995 --> 01:05:04.435
I'll put links to all of your,

990
01:05:07.380 --> 01:05:11.240
to your projects and to your socials in the show notes, so check those out.

991
01:05:14.099 --> 01:05:16.180
I guess a good place to end it is,

992
01:05:16.500 --> 01:05:19.400
on the note of trying to bring in more developers,

993
01:05:20.525 --> 01:05:23.025
particularly young developers at universities and stuff.

994
01:05:23.885 --> 01:05:25.485
Why don't we end with,

995
01:05:26.045 --> 01:05:26.625
you each

996
01:05:27.405 --> 01:05:30.865
giving your words of wisdom to someone who might be listening to the show considering,

997
01:05:31.485 --> 01:05:35.585
working on open source Bitcoin dev? And I will start with you, Rob.

998
01:05:38.230 --> 01:05:40.089
I think the great thing about Bitcoin,

999
01:05:42.069 --> 01:05:43.690
as far as open source development,

1000
01:05:44.950 --> 01:05:46.890
there's two things. One is flexibility.

1001
01:05:47.685 --> 01:05:50.345
I mean, everyone in this space acts very graciously

1002
01:05:50.645 --> 01:05:54.185
and has, you know, a lot of respect for themselves and others,

1003
01:05:55.445 --> 01:06:02.905
which creates this this culture where you're not gonna get laughed out of the room if you have some sort of idea that you wanna pursue.

1004
01:06:03.830 --> 01:06:05.690
You know, it's it's a very autonomous

1005
01:06:06.150 --> 01:06:07.050
career path,

1006
01:06:08.790 --> 01:06:17.770
all the way down to what PRs you open, who you interact with, what you wanna work on. I mean, it's just there there's so many different routes that you can you can take.

1007
01:06:20.285 --> 01:06:21.345
So if you're,

1008
01:06:21.885 --> 01:06:29.425
a curious kind of academic, like, I assume a lot of these students will be, it's the perfect career for that. You you can really make up whatever you want.

1009
01:06:31.325 --> 01:06:33.185
And as as far as,

1010
01:06:33.490 --> 01:06:36.150
you know, the work life balance and so on,

1011
01:06:36.610 --> 01:06:40.790
there's no corporate shit. There's no none of that garbage. Like,

1012
01:06:41.330 --> 01:06:42.470
you you just

1013
01:06:42.850 --> 01:06:50.435
it's just pure alpha. You just work on what you wanna work on, and there's none of the extra shit. There's no meetings. There's no

1014
01:06:51.055 --> 01:06:54.915
any garbage. So I I would say that's the other huge upside

1015
01:06:55.454 --> 01:06:57.075
is, you know, you may,

1016
01:06:57.935 --> 01:07:00.660
you know, wanna go work at Google or something, but,

1017
01:07:01.140 --> 01:07:05.960
even as a developer, you're gonna be in stand up meetings and explaining to project managers,

1018
01:07:06.900 --> 01:07:09.480
for 500 times what you're working on.

1019
01:07:11.299 --> 01:07:14.119
Yeah. The all the fat has been trimmed. You just gotta

1020
01:07:14.420 --> 01:07:16.395
focus on on what you wanna work on.

1021
01:07:17.675 --> 01:07:21.135
Love it. Andreas, final thoughts for young Bitcoin devs,

1022
01:07:21.515 --> 01:07:22.495
potential devs?

1023
01:07:24.155 --> 01:07:25.135
I think the

1024
01:07:25.515 --> 01:07:26.815
Bitcoin developer

1025
01:07:27.195 --> 01:07:28.975
community is is incredible

1026
01:07:29.755 --> 01:07:30.255
because

1027
01:07:31.730 --> 01:07:35.349
it's it's it's really mission driven. There's something that connects everyone,

1028
01:07:35.730 --> 01:07:37.510
and it's it's everyone knows

1029
01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:40.150
Bitcoin is is super important,

1030
01:07:40.849 --> 01:07:44.309
and that makes the work that everyone is doing super important.

1031
01:07:45.395 --> 01:07:51.895
And I think there's probably no other in other industry that where where people have this kind

1032
01:07:52.435 --> 01:07:53.015
of conviction

1033
01:07:53.315 --> 01:07:55.255
that what they're doing is important.

1034
01:07:56.755 --> 01:07:57.255
And

1035
01:07:59.380 --> 01:08:04.680
and and, of course and that also, as as Rob said, everyone is super welcoming,

1036
01:08:06.020 --> 01:08:07.240
and open, and

1037
01:08:08.420 --> 01:08:10.440
and there is no there is no noise

1038
01:08:10.740 --> 01:08:12.200
that you have to fight against.

1039
01:08:13.095 --> 01:08:13.755
It's it's

1040
01:08:17.495 --> 01:08:20.695
incredible. Love it. Well, thank you guys for joining us.

1041
01:08:21.015 --> 01:08:22.315
I enjoyed this conversation.

1042
01:08:22.935 --> 01:08:28.880
Freaks, thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the show. All relevant links are at silldispatch.com.

1043
01:08:29.420 --> 01:08:32.800
I got some great shows lined up for us over the next,

1044
01:08:33.180 --> 01:08:35.040
three three weeks, four weeks.

1045
01:08:35.820 --> 01:08:37.280
I hope you enjoy them.

1046
01:08:37.660 --> 01:08:41.600
Please, all feedback is appreciated. Let me know what you've been thinking about

1047
01:08:41.925 --> 01:08:42.745
this latest

1048
01:08:43.125 --> 01:08:43.625
arch

1049
01:08:44.085 --> 01:08:44.985
arch arc

1050
01:08:45.845 --> 01:08:46.745
of dispatch.

1051
01:08:48.005 --> 01:08:53.545
I've been having fun with it. I hope you guys have as well. Anyway, Rob, Andreas, thank you, guys.

1052
01:08:54.405 --> 01:08:54.905
Cheers.

1053
01:08:55.374 --> 01:08:56.114
Thank you.

1054
01:08:56.734 --> 01:08:59.234
Love you, freaks. Stay on the Stack Sats. Peace.