CD184: CALLE - BITCHAT AND CASHU

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 11/24/2025 20:43:13
Duration: 6425.496
Channels: 1

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Happy Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel dispatch.

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The show focused on

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actionable Bitcoin and freedom tech discussion.

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As always, dispatch is brought to you without ads or sponsors.

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It is supported purely by Bitcoin donations by viewers like you.

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You can find all relevant links at ciddledispatch.com.

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The two easiest ways to support the show is through your favorite Nostra app.

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I like primal. You can just download it in your favorite app store. The largest app from

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the last episode with NVK was rider die freak Mav 21. He sent 10,000 sats.

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He said great rip.

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The second easiest way to support the show is through podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcasts.

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The highest zap there was from Chris with 20,

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2,345

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sets. He said, love all the talk of future cold card features in this episode, but the one I want the most is still missing from the list. The ability to take sport a secure note which has been encrypted with deterministic entropy

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So it can be decrypted on any cold card with the same seed and passphrase.

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This would be huge for inheritance planning.

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I will make sure Enrique sees your message, Chris. As always, freaks, thanks for supporting the show.

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Share with your friends and family.

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It really does go a long way. Dispatch is available in all your favorite podcast apps.

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With all that said, I have a great show planned.

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Today, we have

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rider die freak, return guest, absolute legend,

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Cali here

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I've Cashew and BitChat and

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Nostra AI fame. How's it going, Cali?

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Hey, Odell. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this conversation.

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Always a pleasure. Last time I had Cali on was episode one seventy one back in July.

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We made a deal to try and make these quarterly.

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I think we're a little bit oh, maybe we said half a year, so we're on schedule. It's been, like, six months.

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Yeah. I think so.

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Good to have you back.

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Good to be back.

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Long time listener. I also listen to the MBK show, and

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I just urge every ride or die there to to zap you. I think, like, we can do better than 10 k sets this time.

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I hope I hope, someone out there listening to this

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feels inclined to open their lightning wallet now and send the big fads up to sort of dispatch.

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Cheers to that. I,

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I mean, dispatch now has maybe been going for four years,

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maybe longer than four years,

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trying to prove out value for value, no ads, no sponsors.

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And someone brought up, the other the other day on Nasr. Someone brought up,

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probably my my most,

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favorite rip, which was with Lionel Shriver of Mandibles,

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the author of Mandibles.

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And,

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I mean, besides enjoying her book, I enjoyed that rip because I waited till the last ten minutes to give my Bitcoin pitch in that rip.

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But we onboarded her with a Bitcoin wallet, an on chain self custody wallet,

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and

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she accepted Bitcoin donations afterwards.

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And

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she received more in Bitcoin donations

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than the entirety of to dispatch,

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like, five years of dispatch.

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She got more in Bitcoin donations,

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which, you know, is a win in of if win in it of itself.

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But, I think she received, like, 1.2 Bitcoin.

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I think Bitcoin was, like, 20 k at the time.

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Wow.

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She's held this entire time. I I spoke to her about a year ago. She told me she's holding till the apocalypse.

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And so she's got she's got a little over a 100 k in Bitcoin.

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I mean, there are there are many people out there who wanna express their gratitude. It's kind of like a hit or miss sometimes, but, obviously, lots of people have read her book also due to you. And, also, I have read her book. It's an amazing book.

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I can wholeheartedly

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recommend it to people.

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It's like they people wanna wanna give back when they consume,

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like, the work of others. And, yeah, you've done you've done so much. I mean, like, you've you've got

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all the recognition

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that you deserve, and you also deserve big fat zaps. So

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if there's anyone out there, take out your lightning wallet and send to the dispatch a big one. Well, that's,

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the dispatch promo is done for the day. We got enough in there.

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Where do you wanna start? I think,

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let's start with,

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you have a bunch of projects. Let's start with BitChat. Where do we where do we sit with BitChat? How's things going over there with, your mesh your mesh chat app that you and Dorsey have been working on together?

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BitChat is going great. So

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BitChat is a

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Bluetooth mesh based messenger app that I've been working on with Jack Dorsey. He's working on the iOS app. I'm working on the Android app. We're

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kind of both working on protocol to be

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compatible with each other.

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And

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the thing that makes TheyChat special from other messengers is that you can chat with people around you without Internet. That means, the messages travels from one phone to another phone directly without touching the Internet.

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And, it's been going great. So we've seen lots of adoption, lots of downloads. It's truly

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impressive how many people are interested in BitChat itself. The Android version, like, which is the stats that I look at,

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has so far,

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I think almost 900,000

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downloads,

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which is huge. Crazy. It's it is crazy. And I assume that the iOS app has more.

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Well, at least that that's my last piece of information I got from Jack

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about the downloads in iOS, which is also going great.

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So lots of people are interested in it, and it's kind of, like, spreading the word is spreading,

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by itself,

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where where we don't really do any promotion or anything.

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And,

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we just tweeted it.

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Yeah. And I also keep tweeting about it, but it's it's like the two of us, basically. It's nothing like we don't have any, like, campaigns or anything. The the thing is about BitChat, which we have seen in last couple months, and it's also something I talked about in BTC Amsterdam just couple weeks ago.

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But,

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what's been really fascinating to to,

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watch and observe is that people,

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by themselves, understand that it's a

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form of communication

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that,

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could be useful if

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the government shuts down the Internet or if, like, Internet outages are caused by any kind of natural disaster.

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So to give you a couple of examples, we've seen

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in recent months since the last time we talked, there have been couple of,

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large scale demonstrations happening all over the planet.

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One of those was Nepal.

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And,

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it started, I think, with Nepal, but there were four more countries. So we've had,

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Nepal, Cote D'Ivoire. We had,

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let me see what what was it.

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One second. I'm pulling it up here.

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So we had Nepal, Indonesia,

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Madagascar,

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and Cote D'Ivoire.

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Both like, all these four countries had major demonstrations

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in recent months, and we've seen

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insane uptick in downloads in all of these regions,

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for BitChat.

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And,

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like, three or four of these

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demonstrations,

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or I should say, like, civil unrest movements,

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were Gen z protests.

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We we're living through a year of the Gen z uprisings.

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And,

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well, in Nepal, the government decided to to ban social media,

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which is,

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kind of a stupid decision in a in a country where the median age is 25 years old. It's an insanely young country.

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So they've decided to they've decided to ban social media,

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all of it, like Twitter, Facebook,

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TikTok, like, the big ones.

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And,

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Gen z didn't like that so much, so they went

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out onto the streets. And we've seen

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very big download spikes in all of these countries due to the protests. So people

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themselves understand that,

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they might need a secondary form of communication in in in case the government shuts down the Internet. And that's just it's great to see because

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that is why we're building the tech is freedom tech for people who need it the most.

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And even

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if the situation isn't, you know, even if the Internet still keeps working or, you know,

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the worst outcome doesn't happen, people know that if you download BitChat and you install it on your phone, you'll still be able to communicate in case the Internet goes down. So it's great to see that the the word is spreading despite itself. People are understanding this by themselves.

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I mean, what I thought was interesting

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was you said online that you can kinda

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see, like, where the next unrest is about to happen because of download spikes.

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Yeah. I I'm not sure how much

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alpha I have compared to others. But at least from my vantage point, I see the download spikes first.

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You know, I see the spike in my Google Play Console

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or in the Apple Store Console,

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and then I go back then I go to Google and, like, enter, like, Indonesia

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news, and then you see, like,

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fire. And Oh, so, like, the protest is already happening. It's just how you find out about it, basically.

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Yeah. I mean, I I don't know. I didn't, like, compare day to day, but I would I would assume that the news are fast enough to pick it up. It's just, like, I'm not quick enough to

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observe everything that's happening on the planet. For me, I first see the spike, I go to Google, and then I see the demonstrations.

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Be crazy. So that that this this happened four times in a couple months now, which means this is not a statistical fluke. It is happening.

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And then we also saw a massive

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download spike

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in Jamaica

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shortly before the hurricane that happened there,

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maybe a month ago. So in Jamaica, there's been this huge hurricane

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that turned off the Internet and electricity. It was there was a massive storm there.

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And, people downloaded BitChat before the storm hit. So we saw this insane spike there,

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just before.

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And

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yeah. I mean, there were there were That's fascinating. So that was that was preemptive.

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That was preemptive because, I mean, you obviously can't download it anymore. The error rate is already gone.

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But,

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Bitcher jumped to

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number two in the app stores, both Android and iOS in Jamaica,

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And the first place was like a weather monitoring

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app. So

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it was kind of obvious what's happening there. And

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yeah. I mean, people need to communicate. This is this is a basic human need. And

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this is obvious for natural disasters where the Internet doesn't work anymore, then you might, like,

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wonder, you know, where is the next spot where I can get

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drinking water? You wanna ask, like, someone

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around you, maybe the message propagates across your neighborhood.

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But it is also very interesting to see this for social movements. And I could, like, I could we could really go deep into that because I've been doing some research

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for my talk about that, and the history of these movements, and how communication

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is essential for these movements.

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And,

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yeah, this is happening without any marketing or any kind of work. We don't even explicitly say,

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download BitChat for,

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you know, in case you wanna help with your government or something. It's not it's not the messaging that we that we, put out there. It's just people understand

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all by themselves what these tools are useful for, what when they might be useful.

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That's always been the bull case to me for Freedom Tech was

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if people have the need, they'll they'll figure out,

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you know, they'll they'll figure out how to satisfy the need. And the key is to have the tools there available to them.

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But it's, like, it's a whole different yeah. It's a whole diff particularly when there's a need. Like, it's a whole different ballgame than trying to explain to Westerners, you know, why they might need something if if they don't feel they need it themselves.

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Yeah. It's a bit like with Bitcoin itself. Right? We've seen this with Bitcoin many, many times. It's like you're somewhere in, I don't know,

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New York, Wall Street.

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You need to explain the suit, like, why Bitcoin, and they're like, oh, but it's not a productive asset. Blah blah blah blah blah. And then you go talk to someone in South America or in Africa, and you just explain to them, like, hey. This is money that only you can move and no one can take away from you. Done.

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Sold. Like, people understand immediately what the value proposition is because they live in very different circumstances. And, that is the ultimate test. The test is, you know, not, is this convenient?

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Will this slightly improve your standard of living or not? The test is, is tech? Will the tech be there for you,

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in the worst circumstances when you need it? And if so, people people understand.

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So,

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I think

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I don't I probably should've went back and listened to our

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last rip.

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But I think between

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then and now

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so

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you

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the a a key question I have for you is, so BitChat became

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popularized

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as this or at least in the early days,

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the first wave of hype

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popularized

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as this

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mesh

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chat app,

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that specifically use Bluetooth low energy to hop between phones of people that

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are, you know, within relatively close distance of each other. It works better in dense areas

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like cities or sports stadiums

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or concerts.

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But then you guys also added this ability to when the Internet is working, when you do have traditional Internet,

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networks,

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to use NAST relays for people to

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communicate on a much wider scale.

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Yeah. I'm wondering

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how you think about because those are two completely different things.

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So, like, from, like, a UX and, like, a user

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like, are are users getting confused? Do they think, like,

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if they're using the Paris,

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Nostra chat room on BitChat, do they think they're using mesh? And how do you deal with that user education?

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Yeah. So,

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yeah, since then, we've added bunch of a bunch of features that use Nostr. It's not only the what we call the geo geohash chat,

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which you just mentioned. We have a couple more. But, yeah, to your question, this is it is,

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quite challenging

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to explain to users what what's an offline part of the chat and what is an online part of the chat. Is, first of all, not everyone cares. So it's, something, you know, you don't wanna

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kind of overwhelm a user that's

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that is not interested in that inform in that information. But at the same time, you just wanna be clear of what the app is currently doing. That is obviously, you know, it's it's the responsible way of of building an app. So it's been it's been a challenge to make it clear to users,

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like, which chat is currently happening,

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what we call hyperlocal,

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that is just a mesh, versus,

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the geographic

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Internet based test. So,

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we have color indicators. We say everything, like, the UI is obvious and is clear about that, But many people just don't really, you know, read the fine print and then sometimes make wrong assumptions about, you know, that I I've seen people who say, like, how is it possible that I'm talking to all of all of France right now

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by using Bluetooth? That's, like, it's clearly a scam. I mean, it's, like, it's not a scam. They just, like, you just probably didn't read the manual right.

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But There's also a

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it's a bigger thing than that too. Right? Because it's

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I mean, I,

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there could be

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there could be if you're in, like, the Nepal chatroom,

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I I could be in America and still be in the Nepal chatroom. Right? So it's like you're not even talking to just French people in the France chat. Right? It's just like France is the topic. Like, it's almost like you think you should think of it like a subreddit. Right? It's like r slash France?

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That's right. So I'll so what we focus on is location. Right? So,

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location meaning you you wanna talk to people close to you. That's where the whole idea of pitch head starts because that's limited through

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the range of your mesh.

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So what we added

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is,

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a way to extend your range using Nosler. And No Sur has been the best choice so far for that because everyone can just plug in,

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you know, plug into No Sur. You can just, you know, build an app that uses Internet based communication

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without having to really talk to anyone. You can just build on on NoStar without having to

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set up servers yourself or talk to relay operators.

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And we've come up with a pretty cool,

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method of doing so.

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However, like, the feature that the user sees is you have a mesh chat to talk to everyone who's close to you, and then you can zoom out. You can zoom out from, like, your immediate surrounding to your block that increases the radius to, let's say, a couple 100 meters. And then you can talk to everyone who's dialed in into that chat for the block, and you can zoom out further and talk to everyone in your city and then zoom out further in your region and even the whole continent. So we're like we have several Zoom levels for chat, and you can go super small or super large.

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So there are couple of cool features there, that that I wanna I wanna dissect. First of all

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no, sir. It's it's

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beautiful that you can build, like, a permissionless chat on top of this existing platform, just as WeChat

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developers who can just hook into it and and start using it. Second of all,

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we've come up with a very cool way to make, actually,

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make the use of Nostra very decentralized. And,

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I mean, maybe it's probably it's not too bold to say that we might be the

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most decentralized Nostra app so far because we have a very unique way of using Nostra relays.

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I've built nozzle wraps myself

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many many so far, like, maybe a dozen different nostraps I've built myself. And with nostra, you have this,

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this decision to make as a as a developer,

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which Noster relays will I ship with my clients? Like, no. And if you wanna talk to me over Noster whether there's, like, a kind one client, like, primal, like, well, primal actually doesn't qualify. But,

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all the cool all the times where you could actually set your relays.

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If you wanna if you wanna, you know, communicate to someone,

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then you need to You can set your relays in primal, to be clear. Okay. Alright. And then I need to, you know, take that back because at,

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I I I thought that you you're just blasting it with primal client, and they blast it to others.

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No. No. Send send goes directly to relays, and you can choose your relays. And by default, primal picks.

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We have,

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the primal relay is is on by default, but then we randomize the other relays that get chosen when you create a new account,

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to try and distribute it a bit. And but on on the read side, you're reading from the caching server. So you're reading from a separate server, not

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not relay servers. Yeah. I mean, and that that it makes sense. And that's that's where I'm trying to get to is that, you know, as the client developer, you need to make sure that your users

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pair at least one relay. Otherwise, they cannot talk to each other.

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It's very simple concept. Right? So,

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Primal does that by basically hosting the best relay, and everyone wants to talk to the Primal Relay. Right? So every single NOS app that I've built so far includes Primal as a default relay as well because I know that everyone

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basically, everyone is on the Primal Relay.

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So,

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that's cool. It works as long as Primal is there, and, it's not the most decentralized way of using Nostra, but it's a way of using Nasr. For BitChat, however,

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we have come up with a super unique way

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of making use of the almost,

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let me see. I think we have around index around,

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well, 300 different three days or so

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that you can use in the BitChat app. And the way we do it is unique because,

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we use it for geohash chats.

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And geohash means you have a location,

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associated with the chat room that you wanna talk to. And with that location, you can actually make a an educated

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choice for the relays that you wanna use. So what we have done, we have a we have a GitHub

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pipeline that does this every twenty four hours automated,

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goes through a huge list of relays. It it crawls relays, so it it assembles a long list of relays

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through,

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NoStar itself. So it's kind of seeded with a couple of relays and then builds this huge list of relays every twenty four hours. Then we look at the IP addresses of these relays, and we map them to locations.

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You you cannot, like,

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be extremely precise of where that relay is located, and often it's just like an IP address that points to a data center.

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But it gives you it gives you a rough idea of the country that this relay is located in, maybe even, like, the region or city that the relay is located in. So what we end up with is a

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long list of relays, 300 relays associated with their IP address and their GPS locations. So we have this location list. And then now when you go into BitChat and you wanna talk to people in Nepal, let's say, or you're in Nepal and you go into Nepalese

300
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GeoHatchat,

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What the app does is it downloads this this list of relays, these 300 relays, and then chooses the five closest relays to your location

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that it connects to and uses those relays to talk to others. And it this solves, like, this problem of having to share at least one relay with the people that you wanna talk to because

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the mapping from your location

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to the relay list is deterministic. So the the other guy who's also talking in the same chat, in the Nepalese chat, also chooses

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probably the five same relays as you do. And as long as one of them is the same, you can actually talk to each other. And that way, we can basically make sure that we use the a very large set of relays, 300 in total.

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And that even, like, if some of the relays go down and then come back up and so on, we don't have to maintain this list for the others. And, most importantly, the users don't need to make a choice. Like, we don't have a we don't even have a setting where you can set the relay in BitChat because users don't know what a relay is. They shouldn't have to learn this. We just

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want to make the best decision for them, and it works really, really well. So I think this is a unique way of using Nostril Relay so far. I haven't at least, I haven't seen anyone doing the same thing so far. Well, I mean, I love that. I think it's a great concept and execution.

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I mean, also, BitChat's a bit unique among Nasr apps because it's

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ephemeral by default as well. So you don't have a, like, a fixed Napster identity. So every time you load up the app, whatever, you know, purpose you're using it for, then

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sane defaults can be chosen by,

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the app itself rather than the users, which makes sense to me. Have you given any thought to the fact

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well, let's use a protest. Right? Like, there's a if there's a protest in Nepal,

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and specifically, it's a protest

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around

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Internet censorship and social media censorship or whatnot.

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Wouldn't

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servers you know, relays are

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are interoperable servers. That's what relays are. But wouldn't, like, relays located in that region be easier to censor

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than,

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you know, something that's like, a relay that's hosted in California?

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Yeah. Probably

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so. However, I mean,

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first of all, there are not many relays in Nepal. So you're not using Nepalese relays anyway, but that's just, like, the fact that relays are sparsely distributed across the planet. So even if you use BitChat in Nepal, you're going to use relays

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across the wider,

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you know,

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Asian,

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region. So

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in that sense, I don't think that the Nepalese government could do anything about it. They could obviously block these relays through IP blocks,

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but, we are updating the list every twenty four hours. So it should be possible to kind of circumvent

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any kind of block by updating that list every now and then.

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But I should say, like, currently, the list is shipped within the app, so it's hard coded in the app, but the app also fetches the latest list every day

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from, GitHub. So we have a centralized place where we store this list,

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and that is also a potential choke point. So if if Nepal decided to turn off GitHub, for example, then you you wouldn't be able to get the latest list.

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There might be ways to make this more robust, you know, distribute the list itself over Noster, for example.

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But, you know, we haven't seen the the

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the need for that yet. I think there are still ways to make it a bit more robust.

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But it is not theoretical. I would still use the local

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whatever the local list was if it didn't if it can get an update. If there is exactly. If there is no, you know, if get get up is down or something, you still have the the list that was supplied with the net with the latest app update. So it's it's inside the app.

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Yeah. I mean, I mean, like, Nepal is

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an is is maybe not the best example. But if you have, like, someone like India

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that has a bit more powerful influential government,

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but also not like a US level,

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you know, like US, Russia, China, Israel level kind of adversary.

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I just think they might have,

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you know, they have stronger relationships with their, quote, unquote, regional partners than they do with

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in terms of, like,

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mutual censorship than they might have from someone that's

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located outside. But I guess you can also deal with that more on an ad hoc basis.

349
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Yeah. Yeah. And, also, I've The Nasr piece isn't supposed to be the

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as censorship resistant as the Bluetooth

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hyperlocal mesh. Right?

352
00:27:21.895 --> 00:27:25.755
Yeah. That's just what I what I wanted to say. So the I mean, the Nostra

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chat is is amazing, and you can see lots of activity there. But I also wanna like, our main focus is the mesh. We wanna

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we wanna

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contribute to building out a

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dedicated separate

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infrastructure network that is based on, like, built on this mesh. So we have a bunch of features that are built on Nasr. And the reason why we use Nasr again is because it's,

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decentralized,

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permissionless.

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Everyone can just build on it. However, it's not the main focus of the app. So we, the the you could even say, like, the Nostril features that we have are,

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ways to make the app more sticky. So anything that that makes people open the app more

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is good for us because that means that the mesh will be supported. And that's our ultimate goal, is to improve the mesh.

363
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And because they need to have the app open to relay

364
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messages. That's right. At least for iOS, you need to kind of have it open in front of you, and you can close it into the like, you can put it in the background. It still keeps working on iOS and on Android, but you need to, like, at least have it opened once without closing it, after your last reboot.

365
00:28:31.769 --> 00:28:37.630
But, yeah, we're also working on on the mesh side where we have some really cool updates in the pipeline there. So,

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the things we've just added recently was file transfers and image transfers. So you can also now,

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share voice notes and images

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and even files using the Bluetooth mesh,

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which can be useful because many people just use communication

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just via voice voice chat, so they wanna be able to to speak into the into the microphone. Everyone else in your vicinity

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will then receive this this,

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you know, speech message.

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And,

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we're

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also improving, like, making the mesh more advanced in a sense that we're adding source routing now, similar to how Tor works. So currently, if you do if you send a DM if I send you a DM in the mesh,

376
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currently, it's like a broadcast. I will send the DM to anyone

377
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hoping that all of these people,

378
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some of them are connected to you or at least they are connected a couple of hops down the line with you. So it's a flood system where many, many people get the message that who are not really interested in it. So if I have a DM,

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a more efficient way of getting that message to you is,

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would be using kind of a routing method. And what we've implemented

381
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is something similar to how TOR works or the space protocol works, where we take the message

382
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and then we,

383
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find the route through the mesh,

384
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starting from me ending up at you, and then we hand over that packet down the the predetermined

385
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route so that DMs can reach your destination much more efficiently. That is great because it reduces the stress on the system by, like, many orders of magnitude

386
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or direct messages, especially if you have larger payloads with, like, files and and and audio and whatnot.

387
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And,

388
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and what I'm currently working on, and this is, like, we you know, this is still in-depth. It already works, but it's not released yet is for Android.

389
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We have a working version for Wi Fi aware. That is a Wi Fi based mesh mechanism that you can use on Android.

390
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You know, considerably

391
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increases the range for the mesh,

392
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where you can you can do a peer to peer connection between two Android multiple Android devices using the Wi Fi chip without having to, like, manually connect to them. So it's kind of complement the Bluetooth

393
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as well, both run side by side.

394
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We still struggle a bit with the compatibility

395
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between iOS and Android because there is, like, some Apple shenanigans going on there, but, the EU regulations might force them to actually become,

396
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cross compatible.

397
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We'll we'll see.

398
00:31:11.294 --> 00:31:16.770
So there's Wi Fi based NAS in the pipeline. And what I'm How much bigger range is that?

399
00:31:17.970 --> 00:31:26.210
Well, the Wi Fi chip is way stronger than the Bluetooth chip. I haven't tested it myself. Is it, like, a five x range improvement, 10 x? Like

400
00:31:29.345 --> 00:31:32.085
Hard to say. I haven't tried, so I don't wanna say a number.

401
00:31:32.465 --> 00:31:45.360
I I haven't tried. Just like but you have your from your own experience, how strong Wi Fi is to to you need to extrapolate from there. It's it's going to be much better and going it's going to penetrate, like, walls and stuff like that much better.

402
00:31:46.059 --> 00:31:57.120
So Wi Fi aware and that's it's cool because you can, like, you can just upgrade all the Androids, and it still improves the iOS devices as well because the Androids also still work on Bluetooth. So can, like, get the message

403
00:31:57.634 --> 00:31:58.034
from,

404
00:31:58.514 --> 00:32:07.095
iOS to Android via Bluetooth and then from Android to Android via Wi Fi. And, like, this still helps the iOS device communicate further. Yeah.

405
00:32:08.115 --> 00:32:17.470
And what I'm looking forward to the most right now, and that's been something that I've been spending, like, most time testing and QA QA testing, this is,

406
00:32:18.010 --> 00:32:18.830
the background

407
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activity for Android.

408
00:32:21.050 --> 00:32:22.430
In Android, you can do,

409
00:32:23.370 --> 00:32:27.550
you know, really cool tricks to make the app extremely sticky in the background.

410
00:32:28.054 --> 00:32:28.695
That means,

411
00:32:29.015 --> 00:32:32.715
for Android, soon you'll be able to start the app. And even if you close the app,

412
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it will still run-in the background as a note, as a kind of a relay

413
00:32:37.655 --> 00:32:47.169
for all the other BitChat devices around you. That means you just start it once. And as long as you don't manually close it, like, you'll be able to to change this in the settings, obviously,

414
00:32:47.549 --> 00:32:49.970
it will just keep running, and that's gonna

415
00:32:50.429 --> 00:32:52.049
boost, the mesh capabilities

416
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by a lot. It also means that you can run around with the device in your pocket.

417
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And if someone's close to you,

418
00:32:59.245 --> 00:33:11.240
they'll be able to see that, hey. Now there is someone with the chat around me, and they'll be able able to talk to you without really using lots of your batteries. So you just, like, keep keep running this in background. And it reminds me a bit of,

419
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:12.380
Satoshi.

420
00:33:13.080 --> 00:33:15.980
If you read the emails between Marti Momi and Satoshi,

421
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:17.160
where,

422
00:33:17.800 --> 00:33:18.620
they're discussing,

423
00:33:19.135 --> 00:33:28.035
you know, this is, like, Bitcoin zero point whatever. It's like, even the first even before the first real release or just quickly after the shortly after the first release,

424
00:33:28.414 --> 00:33:32.995
Marti Maomi and Satoshi are discussing whether they should port it, to to Linux.

425
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:40.320
And Satoshi says, well, Linux is cool, but that's low priority right now. Let's first make sure that if you close Bitcoin,

426
00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:41.440
the client,

427
00:33:41.900 --> 00:33:51.755
that minimizes into tray in Windows. Like, you know, you if you close it, it still keeps running in the background because that's what that's what's going to increase the note count by, like, 300%.

428
00:33:51.815 --> 00:34:00.890
Whereas, you know, if porting it to Windows maybe by 5% or so, that's what he says in the email. So I think we're we're about to play the same trick for BitChat,

429
00:34:01.430 --> 00:34:06.170
by making sure that the app just keeps running in the background as long as you don't close it explicitly.

430
00:34:07.830 --> 00:34:10.170
Yeah. That makes sense to me. And just prioritizing

431
00:34:10.550 --> 00:34:11.050
accordingly.

432
00:34:15.205 --> 00:34:17.705
Although, that all sounds awesome. I mean, so

433
00:34:19.285 --> 00:34:19.785
you

434
00:34:20.645 --> 00:34:21.865
are part of,

435
00:34:22.565 --> 00:34:24.985
like, a a five man

436
00:34:26.210 --> 00:34:29.030
nonprofit engineering team called and other stuff,

437
00:34:30.849 --> 00:34:31.750
with Jack,

438
00:34:32.369 --> 00:34:32.869
Rabble,

439
00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:33.670
Alex,

440
00:34:34.609 --> 00:34:35.349
and Jeff.

441
00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:39.270
That's right. And and probably the most

442
00:34:39.945 --> 00:34:48.445
famous project that has, you know, come out of it, which didn't really because I guess Jack kinda just vibe coded on the side was his big chat.

443
00:34:49.305 --> 00:34:50.125
They've recently

444
00:34:51.305 --> 00:34:53.720
made news waves on Rabel's

445
00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:56.359
focus of a vine reboot.

446
00:34:57.380 --> 00:34:59.720
But the other piece the the other

447
00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:02.020
project that has been getting

448
00:35:02.660 --> 00:35:09.625
at least within our community has been getting a decent amount of press, but not in the wider community, not like Devine and BitChat,

449
00:35:10.085 --> 00:35:11.145
is white noise,

450
00:35:11.845 --> 00:35:13.385
which is a Nostra based,

451
00:35:14.885 --> 00:35:17.224
signal alternative. So encrypted messaging.

452
00:35:18.724 --> 00:35:21.625
There's I mean, at the surface, there's a lot of

453
00:35:21.925 --> 00:35:22.425
overlap

454
00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:26.010
on use case with something like BigChat.

455
00:35:26.550 --> 00:35:27.930
Do you guys talk internally

456
00:35:28.230 --> 00:35:28.730
about

457
00:35:29.030 --> 00:35:33.930
how to think about each project and, like, how do are they complementary to each other?

458
00:35:34.390 --> 00:35:37.575
That is it one is gonna end up with more users?

459
00:35:37.875 --> 00:35:39.415
Like, how do you think about that?

460
00:35:39.955 --> 00:35:45.255
Yeah. Absolutely. We we we're in close close contact. We talk about these things regularly. And,

461
00:35:46.355 --> 00:35:57.840
so I mean, in a sense, like, I I'm a big fan of white noise, and I think something like white noise is needed and necessary. So I'm I'm a big bull very bullish on it. The use cases, however,

462
00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:02.800
are fairly different in my mind. So I I don't see, like it could be complimentary, but

463
00:36:03.185 --> 00:36:14.805
the utility of white noise is being able to securely chat to anyone everywhere. Right? We know the use case of signal. That's what it's supposed to replace. You can add someone as a contact and keep talking to to them,

464
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.059
independent of where where you are. The use case of BitChat is,

465
00:36:19.359 --> 00:36:27.059
like, completely different in that sense. Like, we have also noise based communication, but it's very primitive noise based communication compared to white noise.

466
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.779
Our use case for BitChat is more

467
00:36:30.195 --> 00:36:57.280
who is around you right now, and you don't know these people yet, but you still wanna talk to them. So I've been in a conference recently giving a talk, and people were discussing my talk while I was giving the talk. So someone sent me a screenshot of, like, a 120 people or so in the BitChat mesh at that moment discussing what's happening on stage. This is something, you know, you don't need to connect with them. You don't need to talk to them. You just you you just directly connected to anyone close to you. So in that sense,

468
00:36:58.964 --> 00:37:00.984
really, you know, the overlap is limited.

469
00:37:01.285 --> 00:37:01.785
However,

470
00:37:02.565 --> 00:37:05.144
I I wanna say, like, what white noise is doing,

471
00:37:06.244 --> 00:37:08.744
is, like, the the approach that Jeff and

472
00:37:09.045 --> 00:37:09.625
his team,

473
00:37:10.325 --> 00:37:12.904
have taken in building white noise is

474
00:37:13.299 --> 00:37:14.920
very smart in that they,

475
00:37:15.220 --> 00:37:16.039
first, they,

476
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:18.839
formulated as a protocol. So there's the,

477
00:37:19.220 --> 00:37:20.279
I think, the NIPXX

478
00:37:21.140 --> 00:37:22.200
improvement protocol,

479
00:37:23.140 --> 00:37:27.079
proposal that describes how White Noise works, but they're also working on the Marmot

480
00:37:27.380 --> 00:37:27.880
library.

481
00:37:29.115 --> 00:37:32.655
So this is gonna be kind of a for TypeScript and Rust,

482
00:37:33.035 --> 00:37:38.335
a module that you can just pull into your own project and make use of this double ratchet encryption

483
00:37:39.115 --> 00:37:40.575
algorithm that they have

484
00:37:41.160 --> 00:37:43.579
ported onto Noister. So that means

485
00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:45.099
even us using,

486
00:37:45.640 --> 00:37:53.420
you know, Noister for communication on BitChat, we could make use of the white noise libraries eventually when they are, you know, ready

487
00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:54.825
in order to,

488
00:37:55.785 --> 00:38:00.845
provide, like, even better encryption than what we're doing right now. Right now, we're using NIP 17 encryption

489
00:38:01.224 --> 00:38:02.765
for, bit chat messages.

490
00:38:03.224 --> 00:38:10.050
And, you know, if white noise is there, we'll just we'll just, use that. So but this is the general theme of for,

491
00:38:10.530 --> 00:38:21.830
what we're doing with end other stuff. We're kind of using each other's results to improve all these products that we're working on because the overall goal was always to move into the same direction

492
00:38:22.530 --> 00:38:24.870
in synchrony and build no

493
00:38:25.715 --> 00:38:27.655
experiences and products that are

494
00:38:28.195 --> 00:38:30.535
more, you know, coherent, basically.

495
00:38:30.835 --> 00:38:31.335
So

496
00:38:31.715 --> 00:38:33.335
the Vine itself, for example,

497
00:38:33.635 --> 00:38:40.695
is going to implement Casu. White noise also is probably also implement Casu because we're working on Casu closely together.

498
00:38:41.020 --> 00:38:41.520
BitChat

499
00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:42.560
will implement,

500
00:38:43.020 --> 00:38:50.160
white noise libraries to make communication more useful. Hell, even with Cashew wallets can make use of, white noise libraries

501
00:38:50.540 --> 00:38:54.320
in, you know, in cases where you wanna send eCash over Nostra, for example.

502
00:38:54.965 --> 00:38:58.985
So there's there's lots of synergies in that sense in that group, and

503
00:38:59.925 --> 00:39:02.905
all due to the fact that we constantly talk to each other

504
00:39:03.765 --> 00:39:16.280
and try to support each other by making, you know, sure that everyone builds the best software possible. And we can create, like, a cohesive Nostra experience together. Because that's what Nostra was lacking

505
00:39:16.740 --> 00:39:23.545
for way too long before, so that everyone is doing their own thing. And it's, like, beautiful and amazing things are being produced on roster,

506
00:39:24.005 --> 00:39:38.100
but it felt like, you know, we're we're expanding in multiple directions at the same time. Whereas for AOS, for and other stuff, we're kind of trying to make a group and then move together in one direction. And I think, you know, the things that we've been currently building

507
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:39.220
show that

508
00:39:39.680 --> 00:39:41.380
we're doing pretty well so far.

509
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:44.020
Yeah. I mean, the,

510
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:46.980
like, the true power of open protocols

511
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.395
is is,

512
00:39:48.775 --> 00:39:50.875
you know, the compounding interoperability,

513
00:39:52.615 --> 00:39:54.715
which we've we've, we've seen

514
00:39:55.495 --> 00:39:56.875
at scale with Bitcoin.

515
00:39:57.255 --> 00:40:05.260
It's yet to be seen with Nasr. It's, like, very early days. But would you agree with me that, like, so, like, I see like, if I would distill

516
00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:11.420
what you said about, at least right now, the differences between something like BigChat and White Noise is

517
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.460
is BigChat is focused more on ephemeral

518
00:40:15.545 --> 00:40:16.045
communication.

519
00:40:17.145 --> 00:40:18.445
So, like, on demand,

520
00:40:20.105 --> 00:40:21.245
no fixed identity

521
00:40:21.545 --> 00:40:22.445
kind of communication

522
00:40:22.745 --> 00:40:25.165
and probably even more focused on,

523
00:40:25.865 --> 00:40:27.965
like, group ephemeral communication,

524
00:40:28.670 --> 00:40:31.250
while white noise is more focused on,

525
00:40:32.190 --> 00:40:33.090
fixed identity,

526
00:40:33.630 --> 00:40:39.570
one to one communication. Obviously, they wanna add groups too. I think they already support them at least in

527
00:40:39.870 --> 00:40:40.930
a early stage.

528
00:40:42.615 --> 00:40:46.235
But it's it's it's more similar to, like, a Telegram or, like, a signal

529
00:40:46.615 --> 00:40:49.835
in terms of competition. But would you not agree that, like

530
00:40:50.615 --> 00:40:52.695
to me, like, the holy grail is, like,

531
00:40:53.095 --> 00:40:56.075
an app that gives me the white noise functionality,

532
00:40:56.980 --> 00:41:01.240
but then also can communicate via mesh if the Internet's down

533
00:41:01.620 --> 00:41:03.400
and can do location groups

534
00:41:04.420 --> 00:41:14.475
and can do a femoral stuff. We can also do fixed identity stuff. Like, this all becomes one app. Right? At some point I mean, they're both open protocols. At one point, at some point, there there's gonna be one app

535
00:41:15.095 --> 00:41:17.115
that has all the functionality. No?

536
00:41:18.295 --> 00:41:28.920
I I would like to see that. It's just, like, you know, from a product perspective, you just wanna be clear about why you're doing what so that you can attract those universe who are interested in that specific thing.

537
00:41:30.579 --> 00:41:32.680
So this is a process that should

538
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:38.200
be taken step by step in that sense. However, you know, I agree with everything that you said

539
00:41:38.505 --> 00:41:43.325
with the focus that each individual project is taking on. However, like, to make the contrast

540
00:41:43.625 --> 00:41:45.805
more clear about how I see BitChat

541
00:41:46.265 --> 00:41:47.144
and White Noise is

542
00:41:47.785 --> 00:41:49.964
for me, White Noise is a communication

543
00:41:50.585 --> 00:41:54.200
protocol that is that uses NoSri as the transport.

544
00:41:54.820 --> 00:41:58.360
Whereas, BitChat, in my view, is a new transport.

545
00:41:58.740 --> 00:41:59.480
It's a

546
00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:02.920
new type of infrastructure that we're trying to build with the mesh.

547
00:42:03.220 --> 00:42:04.485
And it's kind of like

548
00:42:05.445 --> 00:42:05.945
comparing

549
00:42:06.245 --> 00:42:13.545
the the cables that provide your Internet. Right? So the the with the application that you're using on the Internet. So

550
00:42:14.405 --> 00:42:15.865
BitChat is like the cables

551
00:42:16.245 --> 00:42:17.225
where we're

552
00:42:17.525 --> 00:42:18.745
laying out new

553
00:42:19.080 --> 00:42:21.980
infrastructure rails in order to send messages

554
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:23.000
on to,

555
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:24.220
on top of,

556
00:42:24.600 --> 00:42:32.140
whereas white noise is a way to make sure that these messages are correctly encrypted and secure. So you could imagine a future

557
00:42:32.625 --> 00:42:39.445
where we use the white noise protocol in BitChat because BitChat can provide the rails to transport these packets,

558
00:42:39.985 --> 00:42:46.165
the white noise packets on top of instead of using the Internet. So in that sense, there could be more ways to

559
00:42:47.170 --> 00:42:51.270
find complimentary ways of making use of each other. I'll give you another example.

560
00:42:52.130 --> 00:42:53.270
Currently, like,

561
00:42:53.730 --> 00:42:54.870
we're working on Cashew,

562
00:42:55.410 --> 00:43:02.395
and most, you know, most Cashew apps use just pure normal Internet to talk to each other and to to mince.

563
00:43:02.775 --> 00:43:05.995
And, if you wanna send eCash from one person to another, currently,

564
00:43:06.295 --> 00:43:07.675
the, you know, many

565
00:43:08.055 --> 00:43:29.115
the the most popular way is to scan a QR code from one phone to another. That means you're using a transport that is kind of the QR code hardware lights to camera. So that, you know, you're not using the Internet. You're not using the mesh either. However, you could use the mesh to send the the cache token as well. And that's what we've been, you know, demoing also with integrating Casio into BitChat is

566
00:43:29.815 --> 00:43:32.714
BitChat can provide the mesh underlying mesh

567
00:43:33.015 --> 00:43:36.935
infrastructure to send all sorts of data around, and this data can be,

568
00:43:37.900 --> 00:43:41.840
normal messages. It could be white noise messages, but it also can be eCash.

569
00:43:42.220 --> 00:43:46.320
And so you can use BitChat to make payments as well. That's how I see it at least.

570
00:43:48.140 --> 00:43:50.160
Well, I mean, the cool part of both

571
00:43:50.505 --> 00:43:57.085
the Cashew protocol and the Nasr protocol in my well, one of the cool parts in my opinion is

572
00:43:57.464 --> 00:44:03.164
that they're both transport transport neutral protocols. Right? I mean, we could you can send

573
00:44:03.549 --> 00:44:06.690
a Noster note via carrier pigeon if you wanted to.

574
00:44:07.230 --> 00:44:14.450
It wouldn't scale very well, but at the end of the day, it's just signed data. And, I mean, same with Cashew. Right? Like, I could just pay someone with Cashew,

575
00:44:15.390 --> 00:44:19.365
through, like, a a messenger that's just running down the street with a

576
00:44:19.925 --> 00:44:23.305
printed out piece of paper. Or a piece of paper. Yeah. That's right.

577
00:44:25.205 --> 00:44:28.265
So, yeah, it really feels like we're building an entire stack.

578
00:44:28.965 --> 00:44:33.065
Now we're building an entire stack. Right? Like, we started with Bitcoin, but

579
00:44:33.369 --> 00:44:34.109
we're now

580
00:44:35.130 --> 00:44:37.230
working on, like, laying out the cables

581
00:44:37.930 --> 00:44:39.790
up until, like, inventing new

582
00:44:40.250 --> 00:44:44.349
encryption protocols to get messages send messages around in a secure way.

583
00:44:45.530 --> 00:44:54.295
It's great to see It's like it's this it's the snow crash future we were promised, but didn't materialize yet, basically. Well, it turns out we need to do the work.

584
00:44:57.235 --> 00:44:58.455
Who would have thunk it?

585
00:44:58.755 --> 00:45:09.710
So, I mean, I think this is a good trans transition point here is, like so what's what's been going on with Cashew? Have we had any significant updates? I mean, it seems like it's a project that moves quite slowly.

586
00:45:10.330 --> 00:45:12.109
You guys are rarely shipping things.

587
00:45:13.130 --> 00:45:19.565
Yeah. We're we're, like, we're rather, we'd like to talk about things instead of shipping updates. No. I mean, I

588
00:45:19.944 --> 00:45:22.265
I don't know if, if everyone got the,

589
00:45:23.704 --> 00:45:24.525
the the,

590
00:45:25.385 --> 00:45:28.285
how do you say, the sarcasm in your voice there, but

591
00:45:29.065 --> 00:45:33.885
we are very focused on shipping and cash, and it's been going It is. Great. Yeah. It'd be clear.

592
00:45:34.630 --> 00:45:37.030
To be clear, it is probably one of the most

593
00:45:37.590 --> 00:45:39.610
it's probably the fastest shipping project,

594
00:45:40.310 --> 00:45:41.610
that I have ever witnessed.

595
00:45:42.550 --> 00:45:45.130
It's almost it's almost impossible to keep up with.

596
00:45:45.830 --> 00:45:46.275
Well,

597
00:45:46.674 --> 00:45:55.335
thank you for that. And, like, that's the the reason for that is the amazing contributors who joined the project. So there's, like, many people working on Cashew,

598
00:45:56.434 --> 00:45:59.575
in the foreground and in the background. We have a crazy

599
00:46:00.549 --> 00:46:01.049
motivated,

600
00:46:01.750 --> 00:46:02.250
super

601
00:46:03.510 --> 00:46:05.130
enthusiastic team of Bitcoiners,

602
00:46:06.630 --> 00:46:13.210
of very different backgrounds who are, like, all joined the project at some point because they truly believe that Bitcoin

603
00:46:13.655 --> 00:46:21.355
needs to be used as money everywhere and to penetrate into every single port of this digital world. And that is what why we

604
00:46:21.655 --> 00:46:27.299
wanna work on eCash because we think that it gives, like, the it has the

605
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:29.859
most potential to work, like, to to,

606
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:34.260
you know, for Bitcoin to penetrate through every single crack,

607
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:38.260
of the digital world. And what do I mean by that? I mean,

608
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:39.779
eCash itself

609
00:46:40.240 --> 00:46:40.740
is

610
00:46:41.085 --> 00:46:43.665
is super efficient, lightweight way of transacting

611
00:46:43.965 --> 00:46:47.665
with each other without having to create accounts and without having to,

612
00:46:48.125 --> 00:46:59.130
take care of your privacy because everything just works magically for you, and you have you enjoy almost perfect privacy when you use it. And we've been focused in the team, we've been focusing

613
00:46:59.430 --> 00:47:08.090
a lot on, first of all, making sure that we built a protocol with well defined specs so anyone can verify our work and and

614
00:47:08.390 --> 00:47:12.035
implement everything from scratch if they wanted to. But we also

615
00:47:12.575 --> 00:47:17.075
build tooling and libraries for other developers. So most of our work

616
00:47:17.454 --> 00:47:18.675
basically goes into,

617
00:47:19.535 --> 00:47:21.714
areas of work that can multiply

618
00:47:22.415 --> 00:47:29.000
our impact. So, we don't build apps. We build libraries for others to build apps. And

619
00:47:30.260 --> 00:47:47.735
so far, I mean, it's hard for me to keep track of how many cash wallets are there. There are it feels like I don't wanna sound cocky, but it feels like there are as many cash wallets as Bitcoin wallets as well. Because every week, there's someone new comes around and says, like, I've built the cash wallet. Here it is. And with

620
00:47:48.195 --> 00:47:50.295
the emergence and uptake of AI,

621
00:47:50.690 --> 00:47:52.310
it's getting even crazier

622
00:47:52.850 --> 00:47:56.710
to witness how many products are being rolled out because we're

623
00:47:57.170 --> 00:48:02.390
investing heavily into the tooling itself and documentation to make sure that it is also AI friendly,

624
00:48:02.690 --> 00:48:03.750
basically. So,

625
00:48:04.050 --> 00:48:17.315
we've had a we've just had a dev call just a couple days ago, which we have monthly, by the way. So anyone working on Casio or with Casio should definitely join our dev calls that usually happen on the last Thursday of every month at sixteen UTC.

626
00:48:17.615 --> 00:48:36.585
You can find all the information usually in the channels and so on. But in these dev calls, every single one of those dev calls is insanely bullish. It's crazy to be at these dev calls because you see all these different projects that people are working on, and we talk about all the all those things that happen each month. And it it kind of blows my mind how much is happening every single month.

627
00:48:37.464 --> 00:48:55.470
And in recent months, the number of wallets that have been popping out up from people, especially people who have never coded before. Like, we have had, I think, three or four people in the last staff call that started their introduction with, hey. My name is Store and Sell. I've never coded before, but here is a working cash awarded.

628
00:48:55.850 --> 00:48:56.250
And,

629
00:48:56.890 --> 00:48:59.150
it's just amazing to see how much,

630
00:48:59.930 --> 00:49:15.885
agency people have these days if you provide the necessary tools. Obviously, the tools are AI, but also all the libraries that we've prepared so far. And you can really see that people want to build Bitcoin stuff. It is not it's not really about caching. Right? We wanna make Bitcoin accessible.

631
00:49:16.345 --> 00:49:16.845
And

632
00:49:17.145 --> 00:49:22.740
it is, you know, make very easy provide very easy ways to build Bitcoin apps,

633
00:49:23.120 --> 00:49:30.180
that you can just, like, start using and without having to commit to a single company, I should also say. Because there are also other

634
00:49:30.585 --> 00:49:43.484
libraries that I also recommend to people to check out. You can build things on liquids. You can build things on Spark and so on. But, you know, with all of these, you kind of dedicate, like, making a decision to be with this

635
00:49:43.890 --> 00:49:44.390
entity.

636
00:49:44.849 --> 00:49:46.549
And with Cashew, it's just like

637
00:49:47.329 --> 00:49:47.910
a grassroots.

638
00:49:48.690 --> 00:50:00.445
You know, there are many mints to choose from. You can run your own mint. It's it takes, like, fifteen minutes to set up a mint if you're technically inclined, and you can just if you have a a community, you can spin up for that community,

639
00:50:00.745 --> 00:50:01.485
and people

640
00:50:01.785 --> 00:50:07.325
truly own the entire stack. And if you wanna build on something where you own the entire stack,

641
00:50:07.785 --> 00:50:19.710
or you just don't wanna care about the back end and you just wanna build the wallet and make it, like let the user decide which mint they use. You can just use a cash flow library and just build it. And so it's great to see. The

642
00:50:20.089 --> 00:50:21.950
the shipping is crazy,

643
00:50:22.505 --> 00:50:28.685
and that's exactly what we're focusing on, exactly what we always wanted to see, and exactly what we're going to focus on in the future.

644
00:50:29.865 --> 00:50:36.125
Like, we don't talk. We just ship. And as long as we keep doing that, we keep adding features, we keep rolling on software,

645
00:50:36.910 --> 00:50:43.170
we'll still see more and more people join the ecosystem and start building. Right? I think we both agree

646
00:50:43.550 --> 00:50:46.130
that the number of Bitcoin developers needs to

647
00:50:46.670 --> 00:50:47.330
go up

648
00:50:48.350 --> 00:50:48.850
significantly.

649
00:50:49.790 --> 00:50:52.050
Bitcoin is, like, the world class

650
00:50:52.645 --> 00:50:53.145
ginormous

651
00:50:53.445 --> 00:50:53.945
asset

652
00:50:54.405 --> 00:50:55.865
that dominates the Internet

653
00:50:56.245 --> 00:50:56.745
already.

654
00:50:57.125 --> 00:51:00.025
And the number of developers that we have for this immense

655
00:51:01.205 --> 00:51:01.705
project

656
00:51:02.165 --> 00:51:04.105
is tiny in comparison to what

657
00:51:04.580 --> 00:51:09.800
what's what's on our shoulders. Right? The the the the the weight on our shoulders is insane,

658
00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:20.645
but the number of people working on Bitcoin is tiny compared to it. Like, just compare us to let's compare us to Block, Jack Dorsey's company. Right. That company has 10,000 employees.

659
00:51:21.105 --> 00:51:21.905
10,000.

660
00:51:21.905 --> 00:51:26.964
There aren't there aren't, like, you know, 10,000 people working on Bitcoin. Not even, like,

661
00:51:27.265 --> 00:51:30.565
on the entirety of anyone working, like educators,

662
00:51:31.550 --> 00:51:34.210
people doing, like, marketing for Bitcoin, or

663
00:51:34.670 --> 00:51:47.505
let alone the developers. We're not even close to that. So we can't even compete with a single S and P 500 company in terms of number of people working on it. And that is something that must change. It needs to change because

664
00:51:48.605 --> 00:51:52.865
we cannot, like is we're not a company where we can just go out and hire people,

665
00:51:53.405 --> 00:51:59.940
or, you know, say, like, this is the salary, and I'll just take the best engineers in Silicon Valley. No. It's not. It's an open source project.

666
00:52:00.500 --> 00:52:02.280
And the how we

667
00:52:02.900 --> 00:52:03.400
grow

668
00:52:03.700 --> 00:52:04.200
is

669
00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:09.079
through open source initiatives being, you know, opening the doors, being inviting,

670
00:52:10.339 --> 00:52:11.300
reading the word,

671
00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:15.000
about, like, how it is to work on Bitcoin so that,

672
00:52:16.365 --> 00:52:19.105
competent and world class engineers out there

673
00:52:19.485 --> 00:52:24.625
can make this decision for themselves to decide, you know what? I'm going to say no to this

674
00:52:24.925 --> 00:52:27.905
job offer from this Silicon Valley company.

675
00:52:28.205 --> 00:52:30.065
I'm going to dedicate my time into

676
00:52:31.040 --> 00:52:33.220
building out and improving this

677
00:52:33.600 --> 00:52:41.060
the money of the Internet. And so that's that's what our primary, you know, North Star goal, if you like, is

678
00:52:41.520 --> 00:52:47.805
is to provide you more ways to get more people into Bitcoin to make sure that Bitcoin grows and Bitcoin is successful.

679
00:52:48.184 --> 00:52:51.724
And it's going great so far. Lots of developers in the Casio ecosystem

680
00:52:52.105 --> 00:52:57.085
have never worked with Bitcoin before, and the first time that they work with Bitcoin is through Casio

681
00:52:57.510 --> 00:53:03.930
because we make it easy, fun, inviting, and, you know, kind of magic experience to use it and to build on it and

682
00:53:04.310 --> 00:53:06.570
and, you know, just great to see.

683
00:53:08.390 --> 00:53:09.450
So I haven't,

684
00:53:12.425 --> 00:53:21.005
what what are your thoughts I mean, just to bring the two those two topics together, what are your thoughts on how you expect Cashew to be integrate integrated into BitChat?

685
00:53:22.665 --> 00:53:24.845
Right now, I mean, obviously, you can send

686
00:53:25.470 --> 00:53:25.970
Cashew

687
00:53:26.270 --> 00:53:32.530
anywhere you the cool part about Cashew is anywhere you can send a message, you can send a Cashew token. Right? It's just copy paste.

688
00:53:34.430 --> 00:53:34.930
But

689
00:53:35.630 --> 00:53:40.185
long term, like, how do you see that integration on something like BitChat playing out?

690
00:53:41.705 --> 00:53:45.405
So for BitChat, we've already demoed kind of, like, what our

691
00:53:45.785 --> 00:53:48.925
step one of our vision will be is we're going to

692
00:53:49.465 --> 00:53:54.925
integrate a cash wallet into BitChat itself so that users of BitChat just have a, like, a

693
00:53:55.510 --> 00:53:59.930
Bitcoin wallet that feels like a lightning wallet where they can choose the mint that they wanna run.

694
00:54:00.230 --> 00:54:10.805
Eventually, we'd also like to you know, this is something that we've already built, and, you know, you'll have a Bitcoin wallet inside BitChat itself, and you'll be able to make payments. The chat gives us

695
00:54:11.185 --> 00:54:14.805
an easy way to communicate between wallets. So

696
00:54:15.425 --> 00:54:19.845
it would be, like, the easiest way, basically, to send someone Bitcoin who's just sending

697
00:54:20.250 --> 00:54:31.310
right across you in the store, for example. No scanning of QR codes. No nothing. You just, like, you see I'm in the same room with Odell. I see you pop up in my on my screen because we are connected via Bluetooth.

698
00:54:31.690 --> 00:54:35.295
I sent, hey. You received the money. It's done. No registration.

699
00:54:35.595 --> 00:54:42.415
No accounts. So it's it's perfect for that use case. How does that work with, like, ephemeral identities, though? Like, I'm in Macy's.

700
00:54:43.355 --> 00:54:45.115
Oh, like, in between myself

701
00:54:45.435 --> 00:54:47.455
five other people pretending to be Odell.

702
00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:51.180
Yeah. Yeah. I can I can in BitChat, you can favorite,

703
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:58.119
contact? So once I know that you are Odell, and there's also in iOS, this is not yet an Android, but you can also do, like, a,

704
00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:11.934
verification of the of the other user by scanning a QR code on their screen. So, like, we can favorite each other, and then no one can pretend to be you. Basically, once I know it's you So even though the identities are ephemeral and rotating, the favorites

705
00:55:12.315 --> 00:55:13.214
cross that?

706
00:55:13.660 --> 00:55:17.040
That's right. So there is a there is a there is a static identity

707
00:55:17.500 --> 00:55:20.240
for your Bluetooth part, and there is another,

708
00:55:20.540 --> 00:55:21.920
if you want, for the,

709
00:55:22.860 --> 00:55:27.440
DMs over and also as well. But we like, in BitChat, we have a host of different identities.

710
00:55:28.035 --> 00:55:37.875
All the ones where you just, like, talk to random people, they're kind of ephemeral and rotate, but you can also choose to have a have a static identity with the people that you wanna connect to,

711
00:55:38.275 --> 00:55:39.255
on the long run.

712
00:55:40.770 --> 00:55:41.170
So,

713
00:55:41.650 --> 00:55:44.630
So it's gonna look like a traditional wallet interface,

714
00:55:44.930 --> 00:55:46.470
like, within the app. Yes.

715
00:55:47.170 --> 00:55:49.110
Yes. That's that's, like, the first step.

716
00:55:49.890 --> 00:55:51.250
Eventually, we would also like,

717
00:55:52.050 --> 00:55:52.550
communities

718
00:55:53.330 --> 00:55:54.470
of, you know,

719
00:55:55.215 --> 00:55:57.075
regional, let's say, like, physically,

720
00:55:58.175 --> 00:55:59.875
communities in a physical proximity

721
00:56:00.335 --> 00:56:08.675
to be able to run their own Mint very easily. That's a bit of a bigger challenge because running Mint means that you need to be able to provide infrastructure.

722
00:56:09.090 --> 00:56:21.750
That is something that we're also working on in fashion itself, which is, like, kind of on demand Mints, where you can spin up a Mint somewhere on a server that runs for you, but you provide the the Bitcoin back end, basically, you yourself.

723
00:56:22.130 --> 00:56:22.630
So,

724
00:56:23.095 --> 00:56:27.915
either you bring your own Lightning node or you use a different service like Spark, for example,

725
00:56:28.215 --> 00:56:31.275
where, or or Liquid where Lightning kind of is,

726
00:56:31.655 --> 00:56:37.755
provided out of the box. But, giving, like, local communities to manage their own local banking

727
00:56:38.220 --> 00:56:41.680
is one is one of the goals that we have also in, you know, in

728
00:56:41.980 --> 00:56:58.734
the collective of and other stuff. This is one of the goals that we would like to be able to offer to, for example, Nosto communities as well. So a Nosto community should also be able to run their own Mint easily so that they can provide, like, Bitcoin rails or Cashew rails to their to their members,

729
00:56:59.275 --> 00:57:00.335
who don't want to

730
00:57:00.795 --> 00:57:01.775
run the infrastructure.

731
00:57:02.955 --> 00:57:09.030
So that is one thing that's Relays are rel relays are relatively easy to run. That's one of the cool parts about them.

732
00:57:09.510 --> 00:57:17.290
But with with Mintz, the hard part is is the really hard part is the Lightning piece. Right? It's the Lightning node infrastructure and liquidity. Right?

733
00:57:17.750 --> 00:57:21.850
Yeah. We have a we have a solution for that due to, like, the recent

734
00:57:22.475 --> 00:57:22.975
advancements

735
00:57:23.275 --> 00:57:25.615
in Bitcoin itself. It becomes

736
00:57:25.995 --> 00:57:29.775
easier and easier to run a cashier mint soon. So, we have a working,

737
00:57:30.395 --> 00:57:30.895
example

738
00:57:31.275 --> 00:57:32.095
of Spark,

739
00:57:32.955 --> 00:57:37.849
where you can use Spark as lightning back end for cashier mint, which is great because Spark,

740
00:57:39.029 --> 00:57:41.529
the poor privacy that Spark offers

741
00:57:41.910 --> 00:57:44.170
is actually a plus for Casio

742
00:57:44.869 --> 00:57:46.150
because it gives the Mint,

743
00:57:46.869 --> 00:57:47.930
kind of a cryptographically

744
00:57:48.309 --> 00:57:49.450
safe way to,

745
00:57:50.150 --> 00:57:51.289
show proof of reserves,

746
00:57:51.825 --> 00:57:53.445
which is impossible with Lightning.

747
00:57:53.984 --> 00:58:03.925
So we've we've built And that's just, like, a fixed bark address, basically. Right? That's right. Yeah. So, like, we've built a mint where everyone can kind of see what's happening in the mint, like, the the

748
00:58:04.520 --> 00:58:16.380
the funds coming in and out of the Mint. Obviously, the Mint itself provides, like, almost perfect privacy to the users, but the Mint itself wants to be observable. So everyone can, like, point to it and say, like, hey. There's still money in there.

749
00:58:16.775 --> 00:58:20.955
So Spark is one way of running a Mint with just

750
00:58:21.895 --> 00:58:35.300
extremely thin layer of infrastructure, and it's it's really cool. I've seen it myself. Like, running the Mint itself is super easy. A Mint is simple software. It's, like, almost as dumb as a as a noce relay. It just, you know,

751
00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:48.625
prevents double spending of the eCash tokens. That's basically it. And it provides a way to go in and out of the mint using their lightning back end or the on chain back end. And that part has traditionally been the most,

752
00:58:49.405 --> 00:58:52.465
you know, the hardest part from running a Mint

753
00:58:53.005 --> 00:58:56.465
because you need to take care of your Lightning node. But with that,

754
00:58:56.765 --> 00:58:57.585
with Spark

755
00:58:57.885 --> 00:58:59.310
or with Arc as well,

756
00:58:59.870 --> 00:59:02.450
we can provide, like, the Lightning infrastructure

757
00:59:03.070 --> 00:59:04.690
can be provided by someone else.

758
00:59:05.230 --> 00:59:13.275
So running the Mint itself just becomes running the Mint software itself and nothing more than that. So that's why you can just do a Mint like that.

759
00:59:13.674 --> 00:59:18.414
Or, like, your ARC operator is running the actual Lightning node, so you don't have to deal with the Lightning infrastructure.

760
00:59:18.714 --> 00:59:21.454
That's right. That's right. And That's fascinating

761
00:59:22.635 --> 00:59:24.575
using Spark to be preserves.

762
00:59:25.434 --> 00:59:29.055
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really cool, because that's been the the,

763
00:59:29.690 --> 00:59:36.190
you know, the part that is not possible with Lightning because we we have a way to do proof of liabilities on eCash,

764
00:59:36.890 --> 00:59:42.829
by, you know, proving that the Mint hasn't issued more funds that it received. However, the proof of reserves part,

765
00:59:43.175 --> 00:59:47.035
the proof of liabilities is super hard for eCash, but it's kind of, like, at least,

766
00:59:47.815 --> 00:59:55.675
theoretically solved. But we didn't have much motivation to build it out yet and to really build the infrastructure for it because the proof of reserve part

767
00:59:56.420 --> 01:00:02.920
depends on whether you can also prove how much Bitcoin you have. And with Lightning, that is kind of impossible. You would have to use on chain Bitcoin

768
01:00:03.300 --> 01:00:19.775
for the mint in order to prove how much Bitcoin the mint has. So that's been a kind of a blocker for that feature. Now that we also started working with Spark, that means, like, prove reserves is for free. We can just point to the Spark address, and you see exactly how much Bitcoin the Mint has. And then prove liabilities

769
01:00:20.075 --> 01:00:21.855
is, you know, what we've designed before.

770
01:00:22.155 --> 01:00:23.295
And those

771
01:00:23.675 --> 01:00:28.050
two pieces of information together can prove that the Mint is not running fractional reserve,

772
01:00:28.530 --> 01:00:30.710
and that's becoming, you know, much easier

773
01:00:31.090 --> 01:00:36.630
now than it has ever been. I just say, you know, we haven't, you know, the proof of liabilities part,

774
01:00:37.010 --> 01:00:38.070
we have built,

775
01:00:38.530 --> 01:00:46.204
like, alpha versions of that, but none of it is deployed yet because we just weren't there. I think things with Spark can, you know, really,

776
01:00:46.744 --> 01:00:49.085
boost boost adoption of it again.

777
01:00:50.744 --> 01:00:51.565
That's fascinating.

778
01:00:53.385 --> 01:00:58.204
Yeah. It should be interesting to see. It's still very early days with both Spark and Arc, and,

779
01:00:59.460 --> 01:01:04.520
I know they're making some changes on how Spark is being run, and it's obviously very centralized.

780
01:01:06.580 --> 01:01:09.160
Arc, to me, is a little bit harder for me to conceptualize.

781
01:01:11.635 --> 01:01:13.415
And, I mean, I had a whole episode,

782
01:01:13.715 --> 01:01:15.815
with Alex b talking about Arc.

783
01:01:16.835 --> 01:01:21.815
But I actually if I go back and listen to the episodes, I was theoretically talking about lightning.

784
01:01:22.115 --> 01:01:25.895
I didn't really understand lightning until I was running a lightning node and losing

785
01:01:26.850 --> 01:01:27.350
money.

786
01:01:29.410 --> 01:01:34.950
Like, yeah, I gotta learn by, like, actually, like, holding the thing in my hands. So I I think it's still very early days, but

787
01:01:35.330 --> 01:01:36.790
it's really it's it's

788
01:01:38.050 --> 01:01:39.430
it's incredibly bullish,

789
01:01:41.455 --> 01:01:45.795
that and I would I would group Cashew in here for different reasons, but

790
01:01:46.255 --> 01:01:46.755
Cashew,

791
01:01:47.055 --> 01:01:52.755
Arc, Spark, like, these innovations that are happening without actual protocol changes to the Bitcoin protocol,

792
01:01:53.055 --> 01:01:54.275
they're just shipping things,

793
01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:57.059
is is

794
01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:00.579
gives me a lot of hope. It's it's it's

795
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:04.099
it's impressive what we can do without actually changing

796
01:02:05.040 --> 01:02:09.220
underlying consensus things on Bitcoin because that is, you know, incredibly difficult.

797
01:02:09.845 --> 01:02:17.704
I mean For good reason. This is this is what happens if the pressure is strong is if the pressure is strong enough. Right? Like, you have a bunch

798
01:02:18.005 --> 01:02:22.664
of smart people who wanna work with Bitcoin, and, boundary conditions are very tight.

799
01:02:22.990 --> 01:02:31.650
The number of transactions that we can do on Bitcoin are very limited. And everyone with, like, more than three brain cells knows that l one scaling is

800
01:02:32.350 --> 01:02:34.290
is just, is not gonna work.

801
01:02:34.750 --> 01:02:35.730
And no blockchain

802
01:02:36.190 --> 01:02:37.650
can provide enough throughput

803
01:02:38.445 --> 01:02:46.225
without layers on top of it. And, like, even, like it it doesn't matter what the shit corners will tell you. It's just not working.

804
01:02:46.765 --> 01:02:47.825
Like, it's so

805
01:02:48.685 --> 01:02:53.825
trivial that we don't even talk about this anymore in Bitcoin because we know that blockchains don't scale.

806
01:02:54.180 --> 01:03:00.839
And so if the pressure is strong enough, people will find ways. That's why I think it's so important that we have that we attract

807
01:03:02.020 --> 01:03:04.040
people into our space because

808
01:03:04.819 --> 01:03:06.375
all these things are just, like,

809
01:03:07.015 --> 01:03:08.635
single people's ideas.

810
01:03:09.415 --> 01:03:11.355
I remember exactly how Burak

811
01:03:12.295 --> 01:03:13.275
proposed ARC,

812
01:03:13.895 --> 01:03:19.650
and that one single person who didn't even build it. Right? She just, like, threw out the idea out there.

813
01:03:20.049 --> 01:03:21.029
Whereas caused,

814
01:03:21.569 --> 01:03:27.510
like, a whole wave of innovation that just comes afterwards. So it's like the ideas of a single person can change everything.

815
01:03:28.049 --> 01:03:30.390
And this is it's it is the truth.

816
01:03:30.690 --> 01:03:35.375
So we need to attract these people into our space to make sure that we can, like, keep innovating

817
01:03:35.675 --> 01:03:38.735
in that in the in the same fashion as we do.

818
01:03:40.715 --> 01:03:41.615
Yeah. I agree.

819
01:03:43.035 --> 01:03:44.735
I mean, so on that note,

820
01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:48.460
and you're just scaling in layers.

821
01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:52.940
And to our earlier conversation about BigChat,

822
01:03:54.119 --> 01:03:56.300
I don't know how involved you were,

823
01:03:57.320 --> 01:03:57.820
in

824
01:03:58.695 --> 01:04:02.075
the promotion. I mean, you were definitely involved in the promotion of it, but

825
01:04:02.455 --> 01:04:04.395
in the in the details but

826
01:04:04.855 --> 01:04:08.235
out of the Cashew project has come this proposal for

827
01:04:08.615 --> 01:04:10.395
for signal to adopt Cashew.

828
01:04:14.060 --> 01:04:16.800
It's pretty cool. How how are you thinking about that?

829
01:04:18.460 --> 01:04:21.520
So, yeah, that's we've started a

830
01:04:21.820 --> 01:04:29.454
a campaign. This is probably a month ago or so and still going on, and it was more, thought as an educational campaign.

831
01:04:30.635 --> 01:04:34.815
So it's called Bitcoin for signal, and you can check it out on bitcoinforsignal.org.

832
01:04:35.035 --> 01:04:42.450
And it started with a with a hackathon project where, some some Casio devs have integrated

833
01:04:43.230 --> 01:04:45.170
a Casio wallet into Signal

834
01:04:45.470 --> 01:04:47.410
for iOS and for Android.

835
01:04:47.950 --> 01:04:52.049
And most people don't know this, but Signal has a shitcoin built in. It's called MobileCoin.

836
01:04:52.829 --> 01:04:58.944
And no one uses it. No one cares about it. It's a complete disaster, and Signal just carries it along

837
01:04:59.484 --> 01:05:06.944
for a long time already. And it's just like a big question, wonder why is this shitcoin integrated into Signal? And Signal, like but, you know,

838
01:05:07.565 --> 01:05:09.664
Signal has a whole built in wallet

839
01:05:10.240 --> 01:05:11.780
integrated that you can use

840
01:05:12.160 --> 01:05:19.460
to you know, the the UX is pretty good. I can talk to you on signal, and just in the chat, I can send you some mobile coin chip coins.

841
01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:32.035
And, obviously, you know, what is mobile coin? Who cares about mobile coin? No one. So what we've done or what, like, Cashew devs have done, and this was, like, Simple Kid and Lava First and Zookmaster.

842
01:05:33.454 --> 01:05:39.555
They came together and ripped out the mobile coin and just replaced it with with Cashew because

843
01:05:39.990 --> 01:05:52.650
Cashew allows you to send the money in the chat, which we've been doing for, you know, years at this point, is instead of copy pasting the token into a signal chat, which you can already do, and this is you know,

844
01:05:53.015 --> 01:05:56.235
and when we go, like, to a dinner together as a group,

845
01:05:56.535 --> 01:05:58.315
and we're a bunch of Casio people,

846
01:05:58.695 --> 01:06:05.835
then one person pays dinner, everyone else just pays back using Casio tokens in a signal chat. That's what we're already doing, basically.

847
01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:07.820
So what we did is

848
01:06:08.600 --> 01:06:18.140
to rip out the MobileCoin wallet and replace it with a Cashier wallet and, just take over the entire UI that they've already built for MobileCoin and and use it for for SaaS.

849
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:34.275
So that's what you can do now with this with these forks that we've built. You can charge your wallet. It's a cash wallet due to the mint or it's a prebuilt mint, and you can charge your wallet. You have SaaS in there, and you can send the SaaS in the chat, and it appears like as a nice model where you can just push a button and receive the coin.

850
01:06:34.974 --> 01:06:36.275
It's pretty cool. And

851
01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:41.020
we've done this, and we think it's it's something you know, first of all,

852
01:06:41.720 --> 01:06:43.900
signal payments require like,

853
01:06:44.520 --> 01:06:50.700
signal itself provides incredible privacy for communication. Right? So you would expect or at least, like, requirement of

854
01:06:51.174 --> 01:06:53.174
a payment system that you put,

855
01:06:53.895 --> 01:07:01.994
into signal or you built on top of signal also also must be private. So you need a privacy preserving way to exchange money, and it should be Bitcoin

856
01:07:02.295 --> 01:07:25.724
for obvious reasons because mobile coin is a shitcoin, and no one cares about it. So we should use the best money that exists, which is Bitcoin, and use it in the most privacy preserving way that we can. And Casio offers a very good way of using Bitcoin in a extremely privacy preserving way. So that's why we thought it's a great fit. We put it, together. We build it. We demoed it and showed that it's feasible,

857
01:07:26.025 --> 01:07:33.000
and then we put together this campaign to educate people about it. And we had couple goals with that. So our first goal was

858
01:07:33.560 --> 01:07:35.900
just to put Bitcoin out there

859
01:07:36.200 --> 01:07:38.460
and show the world that, you know, Bitcoin

860
01:07:38.840 --> 01:07:46.220
is great money, and it can be used with privacy. And Bitcoiners care that Bitcoiners care about signal, and we want the best messenger

861
01:07:46.520 --> 01:08:04.880
in the world to use the best money in the world. So that's one thing. We obviously wanted to, you know, show also how easy it is to build with Casio and that you can, you know, just, you know, take existing software and add eCash to it very, very easily, and your users can use it without having to create accounts or and and whatnot.

862
01:08:06.380 --> 01:08:06.780
And,

863
01:08:07.260 --> 01:08:13.680
and that's what that's what we achieved. Like, there's been lots of talk about it. I talked to the signal people about it, and

864
01:08:14.220 --> 01:08:16.080
lots of people have seen it. And

865
01:08:16.505 --> 01:08:21.885
the software is out there. If you're interested, you can look at the forks. Obviously, we're not going to distribute this because

866
01:08:22.265 --> 01:08:24.125
it would be kind of reckless to distribute

867
01:08:24.665 --> 01:08:25.645
forks of signal,

868
01:08:26.345 --> 01:08:34.600
that you you that you're not planning to maintain over the long term. And there is a fork of signal out there. It's called Moli, so it could also be integrated into an existing

869
01:08:34.980 --> 01:08:35.960
fork of signal.

870
01:08:36.420 --> 01:08:39.240
But our goal was to kind of enable,

871
01:08:40.420 --> 01:08:41.800
allow people to imagine

872
01:08:42.335 --> 01:08:55.955
what a world would look like if Bitcoin was integrated into mainstream tech products. And that's that's what we should aim for. I think we should aim for the tallest the biggest targets out there. And and and we should

873
01:08:57.160 --> 01:09:03.980
make clear that Bitcoin can also be extremely private if you want and that it fits up in excellent product like Signal.

874
01:09:04.280 --> 01:09:05.880
Obviously, there will be people who say, like

875
01:09:06.920 --> 01:09:12.015
and for example, Steve Lee said that in a podcast I where that I listened to is, like,

876
01:09:12.495 --> 01:09:21.955
talked about highlighted this campaign and that he supports the idea and everything's cool. But, you know, who's gonna run the Mint? That's the thing that comes back to us all the time.

877
01:09:22.335 --> 01:09:39.180
It's who's gonna run the Mint. And, you know, it's it's a bit funny that people keep asking who's gonna run a mint. Because first of all, there are, like, 60 mints out there. If you wanna if you wanna find a mint, there's there are mints. There are more mints than anyone needs already out there. And, you know,

878
01:09:39.525 --> 01:09:50.585
you can compare then you know, some sometimes people compare it to, like, Spark or Arc, for example, where you know who's gonna run the Mint because there's only one single Mint. There's, like, one Spark

879
01:09:51.285 --> 01:09:58.130
server. So that's, like, one company running the Mint. And, obviously, like, you could prefer this because you can say,

880
01:09:58.510 --> 01:10:02.610
there's a company running the Mint, so it's gonna stick around for, you know, I can

881
01:10:02.990 --> 01:10:08.370
I can go to that company and and complain if something goes wrong? And you're right about that.

882
01:10:08.815 --> 01:10:15.795
But if you look for a company that wants to run a mint, then, you know, I can point to Coinos. Coinos is a well known Bitcoin company that runs a mint.

883
01:10:16.255 --> 01:10:26.930
They're gonna run the mint if you like. So if you're truly interested in answering the question, then you can, first, you can find 60 different mints, maybe more, just the the ones that I found so far.

884
01:10:27.470 --> 01:10:34.690
And, also, like, point to companies that have been around for a long time that will still be around, hopefully, in a couple of years that run mints already.

885
01:10:35.025 --> 01:10:35.525
Or

886
01:10:35.905 --> 01:10:40.005
you could just, you know, accept the fact that cache is a distributed system,

887
01:10:40.385 --> 01:10:44.565
and anyone can run a Mint. And, like, just like with no still with relays,

888
01:10:44.865 --> 01:11:00.340
you know, we don't say, like, who's gonna run the relays? It's just like there are enough people who run the relays, and users will be able to find relays if they need it. And the the same is true for Casio. So, yes, there's not a like, signal will probably not run a mint. We know that.

889
01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:07.175
But there might be a financial institution that runs a mint for signal. Right? And this is, like, it's not completely

890
01:11:08.275 --> 01:11:14.614
irrational to assume that that there are financial institutions who are interested in running Mints, and they're already doing it today.

891
01:11:14.994 --> 01:11:16.594
And, you know, I'm

892
01:11:17.074 --> 01:11:28.450
I hear a lot about, like, people looking to business models with Cashew and people sharing their plans with me. And, you know, I cannot talk about what I know, but I know for a fact that, you know, there's, like,

893
01:11:28.910 --> 01:11:39.494
a couple people who are talking to banks, like, real banks that exist today that consider running this stuff, you know, because they wanna know, how can I do this in a regulated session

894
01:11:39.875 --> 01:11:41.094
and provides, like,

895
01:11:42.275 --> 01:11:56.450
a a next generation financial service to my to my customers, right, by using eCash, making, you know, giving them privacy, offline payment capabilities, and all this, like, access to an ecosystem that already already exists? So

896
01:11:56.990 --> 01:12:03.105
Signal could partner with a financial institution that runs Mint for them. This is not, like, completely irrational thing to assume.

897
01:12:03.405 --> 01:12:10.145
So, yeah, I I I guess we just, like, you know, wait and see. Someone is going to run a Mint. And then,

898
01:12:10.445 --> 01:12:13.265
Signal also, or a company like Signal could also

899
01:12:13.989 --> 01:12:18.010
use that mint by default, and then the entire question is basically, you know,

900
01:12:18.550 --> 01:12:19.290
the results.

901
01:12:20.790 --> 01:12:24.969
I mean, so two things here. First of all, I mean, I love this initiative,

902
01:12:25.349 --> 01:12:28.489
because I love signal. I mean, the freaks know I've talked about,

903
01:12:29.074 --> 01:12:32.375
and I love Bitcoin. I've I've talked about signal at length,

904
01:12:33.475 --> 01:12:39.815
on this show and my other shows and Noster and, you know, I think it's one of the most successful Freedom Tech projects,

905
01:12:40.514 --> 01:12:41.495
to ever exist.

906
01:12:42.010 --> 01:12:47.070
I've moved the majority of my personal and business life over to signal in terms of communication.

907
01:12:47.530 --> 01:12:55.150
Obviously, it's not without its own faults. It it takes its own trade offs. It's it's centralized. There was the first real major signal outage,

908
01:12:55.930 --> 01:12:56.910
that we've seen.

909
01:12:57.745 --> 01:13:02.885
I mean, at least since I've been using it at scale for for a couple hours when AWS went down

910
01:13:03.345 --> 01:13:04.565
a couple weeks ago.

911
01:13:05.505 --> 01:13:10.725
But it's awesome for what it is, and it's it's it's convenient and gives you very strong security guarantees.

912
01:13:11.090 --> 01:13:15.110
And, obviously, the holy grail would be to have Bitcoin integrated. I don't really

913
01:13:17.170 --> 01:13:18.389
but on that note,

914
01:13:18.929 --> 01:13:22.550
you know, and and just I mean, I don't know what it's like,

915
01:13:23.409 --> 01:13:25.349
where you're at, but in America,

916
01:13:26.275 --> 01:13:27.255
like, a significant

917
01:13:27.555 --> 01:13:28.775
portion of

918
01:13:29.315 --> 01:13:32.135
the economy is basically running on Venmo rails.

919
01:13:32.915 --> 01:13:35.255
And having Bitcoin integrated into signal

920
01:13:35.875 --> 01:13:39.175
seems like just a very obvious drop in improvement,

921
01:13:40.300 --> 01:13:48.160
that could actually scale. They're, like, actually, people would use it. Like, I convincing them to download a Bitcoin wallet is completely different. I already have them on signal.

922
01:13:48.780 --> 01:13:49.920
With all that said,

923
01:13:50.540 --> 01:13:51.520
how do you think

924
01:13:51.820 --> 01:13:54.735
if if you take off your Cashew hat for a second, do you,

925
01:13:55.935 --> 01:13:56.655
do you think

926
01:13:57.855 --> 01:14:06.594
like, what's the argument for Cashew being the best way to implement this? Like, obviously, there's multiple options available to them. It could first of all, we saw Tethr,

927
01:14:07.310 --> 01:14:08.290
you know, they own,

928
01:14:08.910 --> 01:14:12.370
nearly 50% of Rumble. They added a Bitcoin wallet,

929
01:14:13.230 --> 01:14:16.930
to Rumble for Rumble users. They're just doing on chain for now.

930
01:14:17.310 --> 01:14:19.730
You say you it could be an on chain wallet.

931
01:14:20.430 --> 01:14:21.090
That's obviously

932
01:14:21.745 --> 01:14:22.725
the base case.

933
01:14:24.545 --> 01:14:29.125
We're we recently we just talked about Spark and Arc. It could be a Spark or Arc wallet.

934
01:14:30.145 --> 01:14:31.605
It could be a liquid wallet.

935
01:14:32.225 --> 01:14:35.285
Well, like, why why if if you're sitting there as signal

936
01:14:35.970 --> 01:14:40.470
and you're trying to choose how do we we wanna let's say we wanna integrate Bitcoin. And to their defense,

937
01:14:40.930 --> 01:14:42.150
when they added MobileCoin,

938
01:14:42.930 --> 01:14:44.630
the founder of Signal Moxie

939
01:14:45.650 --> 01:14:50.115
was also one of the advisers, I believe. I don't think he was I don't I don't think it's

940
01:14:50.595 --> 01:15:01.735
fair to call him a founder of MobileCoin, but he was involved with the MobileCoin project. And there was a little bit of questionable incentives there of him trying to pump his shit coin by integrating it into his open source project.

941
01:15:02.610 --> 01:15:12.389
And he kinda got run out of the project. So he's not involved with signal anymore. Now they're kinda sitting on this tech debt. So if we're gonna give them the benefit of the doubt, they're sitting on this tech debt of this shit coin that they integrated.

942
01:15:12.770 --> 01:15:17.670
They don't wanna rip out something that maybe even 10 users are using because that always sucks

943
01:15:18.255 --> 01:15:26.195
from a project lead point of view where you have users that are actually using something and you you wanna move to something else. But let's say they actually do wanna move to Bitcoin.

944
01:15:26.975 --> 01:15:28.435
Why cash you versus

945
01:15:29.135 --> 01:15:30.034
other alternatives?

946
01:15:31.215 --> 01:15:32.435
Is it the best option?

947
01:15:33.429 --> 01:15:35.449
Well, it it depends. This is a multidimensional

948
01:15:35.829 --> 01:15:49.324
question. Right? So first of all, privacy. That is, like, the the the thing that stands out the most given all the alternatives that you've just that you've just mentioned. You'll get no transactional privacy with any of the alternatives that you've mentioned.

949
01:15:49.625 --> 01:15:53.405
All of them have a transaction graph. All of them are either based on UTXOs

950
01:15:53.705 --> 01:15:54.445
or VTXOs

951
01:15:54.824 --> 01:15:55.565
or blockchains

952
01:15:56.264 --> 01:15:56.764
where

953
01:15:57.385 --> 01:15:59.885
the the movement of any of those, you know,

954
01:16:00.739 --> 01:16:03.080
coins or whatever can be transparently

955
01:16:03.460 --> 01:16:07.560
observed by at least one party. So eCash just is on a different,

956
01:16:08.100 --> 01:16:08.760
let's say,

957
01:16:09.620 --> 01:16:16.105
privacy model where you don't have a transaction graph. And it's not even like in liquid where you have confidential transactions.

958
01:16:16.565 --> 01:16:20.505
In confidential transaction, hide the amount, but they don't hide the transaction graph.

959
01:16:21.045 --> 01:16:26.745
ECash, there is no transaction graph. So it's kind of, like, the most privacy preserving way to exchange value

960
01:16:27.045 --> 01:16:30.360
that we know of. And I can say this is confidence because,

961
01:16:31.060 --> 01:16:34.680
I mean, I have a fairly good overview over, like, what's possible.

962
01:16:35.060 --> 01:16:36.440
I wanna say that Lightning

963
01:16:36.900 --> 01:16:52.835
would be awesome as well. Like, non custodial Lightning has amazing privacy properties for at least the sender as well, but we know that running a Lightning node inside a client app is unfeasible or is very hard to pull off at least if you're not, like, focusing on specifically that.

964
01:16:53.215 --> 01:16:57.155
Any of the alternatives, like whether it's Spark, ARP, or Liquids that

965
01:16:57.740 --> 01:17:01.440
pose themselves as a lightning alternative or a way to use lightning

966
01:17:01.740 --> 01:17:02.880
more easily

967
01:17:04.140 --> 01:17:04.880
come with

968
01:17:06.380 --> 01:17:07.440
very poor privacy.

969
01:17:07.820 --> 01:17:11.040
And that is just something that I think as signal,

970
01:17:11.580 --> 01:17:13.475
you wouldn't wanna make that,

971
01:17:13.915 --> 01:17:14.415
compromise.

972
01:17:14.955 --> 01:17:16.975
You would have to, like at least MobileCoin

973
01:17:17.355 --> 01:17:26.415
is also a privacy coin, and that is the reason why I think that they couldn't even consider putting it into signal. Obviously, it is a shitcoin that has failed.

974
01:17:27.390 --> 01:17:29.010
So in that regard, Cashew

975
01:17:29.630 --> 01:17:31.250
is great. Second of all,

976
01:17:32.030 --> 01:17:33.090
Cashew is

977
01:17:34.110 --> 01:17:42.985
is also the only one of these options that you can run yourself. Okay. You could run a smart validator, but, like, I wanna see it until, like, on

978
01:17:43.525 --> 01:17:48.264
I I just need to see that someone can actually run it. You cannot run your own liquid federation.

979
01:17:49.205 --> 01:17:50.425
You put in principle,

980
01:17:51.525 --> 01:17:58.870
maybe, but some parts are still not open source. So it's not the focus. No one really cares about it. No one runs a separate liquid network.

981
01:18:00.449 --> 01:18:05.350
Arc, is the software is out there, but the capital requirements are so high,

982
01:18:06.370 --> 01:18:07.670
at least that's the projected

983
01:18:08.975 --> 01:18:16.035
capital requirements, that no one expects that there will be multiple arcs. There will only probably be one arc. Spark

984
01:18:16.895 --> 01:18:25.160
is, like, more obvious because it's, like, this well funded company that wants to provide rails for everyone. So in any of those cases,

985
01:18:25.700 --> 01:18:27.160
you have to kind of

986
01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:36.440
log in into a single company's road map provider in order to provide those rails for you. And for many applications, this might be okay.

987
01:18:37.055 --> 01:18:40.675
But for for Cashew, you can run this completely

988
01:18:41.135 --> 01:18:41.635
yourself

989
01:18:42.255 --> 01:18:45.955
and, or you can choose a partner that runs it for you.

990
01:18:46.975 --> 01:18:51.395
So I think that's there's a big distinction there. The and third,

991
01:18:52.380 --> 01:18:55.440
cashier has infinite transaction speeds. It sales infinitely.

992
01:18:55.740 --> 01:18:56.480
Like, these,

993
01:18:57.420 --> 01:18:58.720
other types of,

994
01:18:59.100 --> 01:19:04.960
you know, l twos, if you like, they still inherit some kind of a bottleneck from the system itself.

995
01:19:05.585 --> 01:19:13.284
And eCash is just like the double spend ledger. You just need to make sure that the coin hasn't been spent twice, and that's everything that limits the speed.

996
01:19:13.665 --> 01:19:18.324
A cash transaction is as fast as the signal message travels. So,

997
01:19:18.680 --> 01:19:21.500
you know, you could run cache humans for millions

998
01:19:22.120 --> 01:19:34.455
of people using it at the same time already today. There is no research required. We've we've gone through this, like, for decades already. ECache has been around since the eighties. We know that ECache scales to many, many people.

999
01:19:34.775 --> 01:19:35.915
So those points

1000
01:19:36.295 --> 01:19:38.715
all give you, like, a big upside.

1001
01:19:39.015 --> 01:19:39.415
The,

1002
01:19:40.535 --> 01:19:42.795
the the one thing that

1003
01:19:43.495 --> 01:19:51.460
Casu lacks in regard to all these old other alternatives is the unilateral exit. The unilateral exit is not provided

1004
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:55.940
with Cashew. You have to put trust into the mint that runs

1005
01:19:56.240 --> 01:20:08.235
and has the Bitcoin reserves. So all the other protocols that we just mentioned, no. I should, like I correct myself. Liquid also has no unilateral exit. At least for Spark and Arc, you have unilateral exit opt ins.

1006
01:20:08.775 --> 01:20:18.570
In principle, I haven't ever seen anyone actually doing the unilateral exit yet, but I just I'll I'll believe it because I I believe that they are truthful in their messaging.

1007
01:20:19.429 --> 01:20:19.830
So,

1008
01:20:20.469 --> 01:20:29.804
if you are okay with partnering with someone who's trusted enough to not run away with the funds, That is a bank, for example. It could be a financial institution.

1009
01:20:30.665 --> 01:20:36.525
And Cashew gives you properties that the other systems cannot give you in that regard, and I think those fit,

1010
01:20:36.985 --> 01:20:41.244
a product like signal much better. I mean, I'm I'm bullish on Tether integrating

1011
01:20:41.910 --> 01:20:43.449
on chain Bitcoin into

1012
01:20:43.989 --> 01:20:45.370
into Rumble, but,

1013
01:20:46.310 --> 01:20:54.810
you know, how many people will be able to use that? Seven transactions per second. It's not like this can scale into any meaningful volume.

1014
01:20:55.175 --> 01:20:56.635
It's great to have you My understanding

1015
01:20:57.415 --> 01:20:59.515
my understanding, just for some context,

1016
01:21:00.614 --> 01:21:04.235
is that they did on chain first because it's ease much easier to implement.

1017
01:21:04.935 --> 01:21:07.675
And then my goal their goal their plan

1018
01:21:08.360 --> 01:21:14.300
is to use Spark to integrate Lightning. At least that's that's my understanding. Obviously, it's not out yet.

1019
01:21:16.040 --> 01:21:16.860
That's cool.

1020
01:21:21.015 --> 01:21:30.295
Yeah. That's interesting. I think that's, I mean, that's a compelling argument. Like, if if if the main goal is private transactions, then it makes sense because Signal is,

1021
01:21:31.895 --> 01:21:38.030
a privacy focused app, right, with privacy focused users, and that's been their North Star since the beginning.

1022
01:21:38.650 --> 01:21:42.350
But, also, one of the reasons that Signal has been so successful is,

1023
01:21:43.770 --> 01:21:48.750
that they make sane default choices for their users, and they are

1024
01:21:51.185 --> 01:21:58.805
still relatively convenient to use and good UX to use, and you get the the benefit of the privacy. The the thing I often talk about,

1025
01:22:00.225 --> 01:22:01.525
on the show and elsewhere

1026
01:22:02.090 --> 01:22:13.630
is that, you know, signal is the first, quote, unquote, privacy app that I'm able to get my 90 year old grandma to use. Right? And because it's just very user friendly, and that's through saying defaults.

1027
01:22:13.985 --> 01:22:21.125
So on that front, I mean, I think it was something we talked about last time we were on the show, and it's something we talk about offline all the time,

1028
01:22:22.224 --> 01:22:28.405
is is that idea of, you know, one of the cool empowering user aspects of Cashew,

1029
01:22:29.490 --> 01:22:33.910
is that you can choose your Mint. You can choose your infrastructure. You can use multiple Mints.

1030
01:22:34.450 --> 01:22:36.550
But that also adds a level of friction,

1031
01:22:37.010 --> 01:22:39.590
in terms of users having to choose

1032
01:22:39.890 --> 01:22:46.255
which Mint they might want to use, which infrastructure they want to use. If you were in a room with,

1033
01:22:46.635 --> 01:22:51.855
you know, one of the project managers at Signal and they were actually thinking about implementing this,

1034
01:22:53.435 --> 01:22:56.655
what would be your candid suggestion on how they handle

1035
01:22:57.590 --> 01:23:00.090
the mint selection process for the user?

1036
01:23:01.270 --> 01:23:08.170
Well, I think, like, this is this is something, yeah, we talk about a lot, the two of us. And I think it's a strength

1037
01:23:08.710 --> 01:23:27.420
and a complication at the same time. The strength is it gives you freedom, power, as, like, there are many wallets out there, cashier wallets, that will not make the choice for you. But some of them will help you to make, an informed choice. We can talk about that. It's something that I've just recently also added to cashier. Me.

1038
01:23:28.300 --> 01:23:37.660
But there are also ones who make the decision for you, who have a default, and you don't even need to know what a Mint is. You don't need to click anything. You don't need to make any decision. So I think from a product standpoint

1039
01:23:38.699 --> 01:23:40.400
again, like, I wanna know,

1040
01:23:43.085 --> 01:23:45.344
error error reply, how do you say,

1041
01:23:47.005 --> 01:23:47.905
sub tweet

1042
01:23:48.205 --> 01:23:49.185
Steve leave here.

1043
01:23:49.965 --> 01:23:51.185
If you have an entity

1044
01:23:51.645 --> 01:23:53.505
that runs a mint, then

1045
01:23:54.110 --> 01:24:02.050
the there is no choice to make. It's just that one mint. So as a signal in in if I put myself into the shoes of shit signal,

1046
01:24:02.350 --> 01:24:03.570
the way to to

1047
01:24:03.870 --> 01:24:12.285
build this, I think, in the best possible way would be find a financial institution that wants to run this for you, like, just for you.

1048
01:24:13.145 --> 01:24:27.989
They will figure out, you know, what the what the regulatory framework is. And this is not something that is impossible. We have seen multiple companies already, you know, set out onto the path, and we we see, like, companies like Spark and Arc and so on being able to provide infrastructure.

1049
01:24:29.010 --> 01:24:35.005
We'll find a financial institution that will run a mint for you and just use that mint. You're done. That's it.

1050
01:24:35.385 --> 01:24:38.445
So you would default all signal users into that mint?

1051
01:24:38.985 --> 01:24:50.670
Yes. That's what I would probably do. That would be the easiest way where you don't have to explain anything to anyone, and you can also do it with fiat as well. So it doesn't need to be just Bitcoin. You could offer the same exact experience

1052
01:24:51.290 --> 01:25:02.110
for credit card payments into signal and then, like, bank transactions out of signal or something like that. So you can expand this also across multiple currencies if you like. And just because Cashew is not

1053
01:25:02.515 --> 01:25:08.055
tied to, like, the Bitcoin protocol itself, it offers you the same exact properties for all

1054
01:25:08.755 --> 01:25:10.935
currencies that you want to support, basically.

1055
01:25:11.315 --> 01:25:30.030
So you can build the same thing inside signal also for US dollars if you like. Find a financial institution that will run the mint, that will take care of the reserves, you know, takes, you know, gets takes money in and sends money out, and you just use that integrated into your app, and your users never have to make a decision, and it just scales infinitely.

1056
01:25:32.345 --> 01:25:33.245
Would you

1057
01:25:33.865 --> 01:25:38.765
if you were in charge of this rollout, would you give the users the ability to change their Mint?

1058
01:25:39.065 --> 01:25:44.525
You would default them into a Mint. Would you give them the ability to change their Mint, or would you just keep it hard coded?

1059
01:25:45.260 --> 01:25:47.040
No. I mean, I think, like,

1060
01:25:48.780 --> 01:25:49.920
this rolling it out,

1061
01:25:50.700 --> 01:25:58.065
I would you know, one of my highest priorities would be that it is kind of self evident what needs to happen to users.

1062
01:25:58.385 --> 01:26:01.285
I like products where you require zero education

1063
01:26:01.905 --> 01:26:07.045
for a user to actually make, you know, use the product in a good way. So I would probably

1064
01:26:07.425 --> 01:26:08.324
roll it out

1065
01:26:08.705 --> 01:26:35.495
with just a single mint, integrated there, and you can everyone will have a perfect user experience because it's a singular mint. And then if you want to expand this to multiple mints and allow people to use their own mint or the the mint that they choose, then you really need a system like Lightning. Then you need Bitcoin in between in order to connect all these mints. So, again, I I say this all over and over again, but the reason why Cashew is interesting today is because of Bitcoin.

1066
01:26:36.275 --> 01:26:36.775
ECash,

1067
01:26:37.315 --> 01:26:39.190
you know, in the nineties,

1068
01:26:39.730 --> 01:26:42.870
eCash was supposed to run, you know, just one single

1069
01:26:43.650 --> 01:26:50.885
one Mint that is run by a bank. But what if that other user has a different bank? Right? So now you need to make, like,

1070
01:26:51.505 --> 01:26:58.965
a bank transaction from one mince to another. To connect these two mince, you need something that connects them on a higher level

1071
01:26:59.344 --> 01:26:59.844
financial

1072
01:27:00.545 --> 01:27:01.045
rail.

1073
01:27:01.425 --> 01:27:17.320
And for us, that's just Lightning. And the reason why Cashew just works so well is because lightning is super fast. And so that since there is nothing comparable really in the Fiat world, I think, you know, that voice wasn't really made. You know, people didn't think of building, constructing,

1074
01:27:17.765 --> 01:27:23.785
like, an architecture of many different means that can talk to each other. Whereas, right now, in Bitcoin, we can just do it with Lightning.

1075
01:27:24.245 --> 01:27:24.745
So,

1076
01:27:25.205 --> 01:27:30.505
yes, if you, you know, you would have to integrate Lightning as well to make it useful for,

1077
01:27:31.830 --> 01:27:35.370
for for users that choose different names, I would say.

1078
01:27:37.350 --> 01:27:40.010
But I think, still, the best experience would be

1079
01:27:41.030 --> 01:27:42.490
one singular financial

1080
01:27:43.525 --> 01:27:44.344
service provider

1081
01:27:44.804 --> 01:27:45.864
for for signal,

1082
01:27:46.724 --> 01:27:55.545
and you peg in using either lightning or on chain or even, like, a credit card or Apple Pay or Google Pay. You peg in using

1083
01:27:56.030 --> 01:28:00.530
many different payment methods, then you have eCash, and you transact with eCash on signal.

1084
01:28:01.230 --> 01:28:04.770
And that's it. And then you take out using any of those, rails again.

1085
01:28:05.230 --> 01:28:12.425
You'd be able to offer, you know, the most reliability and the easiest use to users. That would make sense to me. I mean, I I think there's even an argument

1086
01:28:12.805 --> 01:28:13.305
that,

1087
01:28:14.485 --> 01:28:22.505
you know, maybe there's a legal exposure argument to why they wouldn't want to do it or a or a lack of focus argument of why they wouldn't want to do it. But,

1088
01:28:24.100 --> 01:28:27.480
if signal got a little bit more involved in that aspect,

1089
01:28:28.260 --> 01:28:37.160
you know, maybe they do partner with a financial institution, but they could presumably take in, you know, an ethical user aligned fee alongside that. And then all of a sudden,

1090
01:28:37.875 --> 01:28:39.095
you have a

1091
01:28:39.875 --> 01:28:43.975
sustainable funding mechanism that's not just donations for the signal project.

1092
01:28:45.955 --> 01:28:52.310
That could be really interesting. I I think, you know, to me, always the holy grail has been, you know, sustainable,

1093
01:28:54.210 --> 01:28:58.950
you know, profit driven funding for scalable open source projects.

1094
01:28:59.730 --> 01:29:02.710
And this would be a very easy place for them to, you know,

1095
01:29:03.425 --> 01:29:05.285
take a couple, you know,

1096
01:29:06.145 --> 01:29:15.605
basis points off of every transaction. You know? A small less than a percent small transaction fee that would still compete with everybody else and would be privacy preserving.

1097
01:29:16.719 --> 01:29:20.900
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the privacy preserving part is really the most important part. But,

1098
01:29:21.679 --> 01:29:31.619
concerning the fees, I think this is something that is universal. Right? Someone you know, anyone providing any kind of infrastructure will want to be compensated at the end of the day. And the only thing

1099
01:29:32.285 --> 01:29:48.780
you could even argue, I just I was about to say, like, the only thing where you can be sure that you don't pay fees to anyone is to use Bitcoin in a fully noncustodial way where you don't interact with with a third party, not even a trusted third party. Even if it's an untrusted third party, like, for example, with ARC,

1100
01:29:49.400 --> 01:29:54.460
then you you still will have to pay transaction fees because running an ARC server is super,

1101
01:29:55.239 --> 01:29:56.315
expensive. So

1102
01:29:56.775 --> 01:30:04.074
someone will have to earn money by running that. But I I just said, like, I was about to say because then I noticed that even Bitcoin itself

1103
01:30:04.455 --> 01:30:13.040
requires transaction fees, obviously, because someone is mining. And some like, the miners won't do their job for free. So at the end of the day, anything that is useful

1104
01:30:13.580 --> 01:30:16.159
has to have transaction fees.

1105
01:30:16.540 --> 01:30:17.760
The question then becomes,

1106
01:30:18.300 --> 01:30:19.360
what is more efficient?

1107
01:30:19.900 --> 01:30:30.455
You know, what can keep the fees low enough that many people use it because it's super efficient or not. And some things are more efficient, other things are less efficient. I think that's where the competition then kicks in.

1108
01:30:31.955 --> 01:30:33.175
Yeah. I mean, that'd be

1109
01:30:33.554 --> 01:30:47.630
from a user point of view, it would just be awesome. I could send I could send Bitcoin to my signal contacts. They could receive it in dollars. They could receive it in euros. I could send them euros. They could receive it in Bitcoin. I could send them dollars. They could receive it in euros, and it could all just be handled

1110
01:30:48.010 --> 01:30:50.030
using Cashew and a single mint.

1111
01:30:51.255 --> 01:30:52.235
Get their regulatory

1112
01:30:52.775 --> 01:30:59.915
shouldn't order. Maybe they, you know, implement some kind of limits if they if they need to based on regulatory reasons. But,

1113
01:31:00.855 --> 01:31:05.910
let's be honest. I I think the majority of commerce that's happening on something like Venmo is,

1114
01:31:06.790 --> 01:31:08.730
you know, sub a couple $100,

1115
01:31:10.070 --> 01:31:19.370
and and you could get that done relatively easily. And then maybe you you push it from there. I mean, one of the things that I thought was fascinating about the last few years of politics

1116
01:31:20.305 --> 01:31:23.925
is how many times has it you know, we've seen chat control and all these,

1117
01:31:24.305 --> 01:31:26.805
you know, pushes against encrypted messaging.

1118
01:31:27.185 --> 01:31:28.965
But the amount of times we've seen,

1119
01:31:30.785 --> 01:31:31.605
world leaders

1120
01:31:32.225 --> 01:31:32.725
or

1121
01:31:33.489 --> 01:31:39.349
incredibly influential rich people that are in signal groups using signal chats. Right? There's there's there's a

1122
01:31:40.130 --> 01:31:41.830
there's a cultural victory

1123
01:31:42.290 --> 01:31:49.135
brand wise that has been won by signal that most open source projects do not have and could only dream of having.

1124
01:31:49.435 --> 01:31:57.775
And they can flex that a little bit. They can push it. I mean, we we see, like, the department of I guess, it's war now. Like, the department of war talking about,

1125
01:31:58.555 --> 01:32:03.330
ongoing strikes in other countries from America, and it's in a signal group chat. Right?

1126
01:32:04.530 --> 01:32:07.590
So there's there's a brand leverage they have,

1127
01:32:08.290 --> 01:32:15.590
that most open source projects could only dream of, and they could push they could push the boundaries a bit on the regulatory side if they wanted to.

1128
01:32:17.875 --> 01:32:20.695
It's just an interesting it's an interesting thought process to think about.

1129
01:32:21.155 --> 01:32:22.534
I just wanna, you know,

1130
01:32:23.235 --> 01:32:24.054
just clarify

1131
01:32:24.514 --> 01:32:27.255
again. It's, like, our main focus is not

1132
01:32:27.955 --> 01:32:29.730
to compete with any of the,

1133
01:32:30.290 --> 01:32:31.190
like, Bitcoin

1134
01:32:31.810 --> 01:32:39.910
layer protocols that we've just mentioned. I think, like, they are amazing, and we are using them in Casio. Like, we don't want them to be to go away.

1135
01:32:40.850 --> 01:32:41.670
On the contrary,

1136
01:32:41.970 --> 01:32:42.870
like, I want

1137
01:32:43.535 --> 01:32:44.595
ArcSpark Liquid

1138
01:32:45.055 --> 01:32:55.075
to be successful so we can actually use it in sig in in Cashew, what what we're which we're doing already. What I think about what we think about when we talk about Cashew

1139
01:32:55.455 --> 01:32:55.955
is

1140
01:32:56.370 --> 01:32:58.710
the millions and millions of people using

1141
01:32:59.409 --> 01:32:59.909
Venmo,

1142
01:33:00.690 --> 01:33:01.510
Cash App,

1143
01:33:02.210 --> 01:33:03.030
bank accounts,

1144
01:33:03.650 --> 01:33:04.150
PayPal,

1145
01:33:05.010 --> 01:33:06.070
Wallet of Satoshi.

1146
01:33:06.530 --> 01:33:15.155
There are so many custodial users out there and with zero privacy. So you get like, even if the privacy of Spark is kinda bad,

1147
01:33:15.935 --> 01:33:24.900
it's still much, much, much better than any of these financial institutions can offer because you don't need an account. You can just start using it. It's kind of like,

1148
01:33:25.380 --> 01:33:27.560
I wouldn't say a permissionless system, but

1149
01:33:28.020 --> 01:33:34.120
it's, you know, no registration. You just, like, use it. That's that's how how it works with Bitcoin itself.

1150
01:33:34.500 --> 01:33:35.239
Right? So

1151
01:33:36.580 --> 01:33:37.239
I see

1152
01:33:37.620 --> 01:33:38.120
Cashew

1153
01:33:38.955 --> 01:33:43.295
in general, like, eCash itself as a way to offer similar properties

1154
01:33:43.835 --> 01:33:45.375
and even better privacy

1155
01:33:46.235 --> 01:33:50.335
for all these use cases where you do have a financial institution involved.

1156
01:33:51.450 --> 01:33:51.850
And,

1157
01:33:52.890 --> 01:34:00.670
there is, like, there's enough to fix there. There's there there are many, many people who would be you know, where their lives would improve

1158
01:34:01.130 --> 01:34:04.990
if their legacy financial transactions would would also

1159
01:34:07.435 --> 01:34:10.815
would also have, level of privacy that is, you know,

1160
01:34:11.515 --> 01:34:16.815
adequate or comparable to the level of privacy that we already enjoy for messaging. So for messaging,

1161
01:34:17.995 --> 01:34:18.575
the work

1162
01:34:18.980 --> 01:34:24.280
that has been done in order for signal to be where it is right now, that's, like, decades of work

1163
01:34:24.739 --> 01:34:25.239
of

1164
01:34:25.620 --> 01:34:26.120
education

1165
01:34:26.820 --> 01:34:27.800
and and

1166
01:34:28.420 --> 01:34:36.965
activism that has brought us to the point where we are right now. Now we can see like, we see politicians using signal, talking about their war plans, or

1167
01:34:38.625 --> 01:34:40.965
you talking about your your mother,

1168
01:34:41.825 --> 01:34:44.165
being able to use signal so she can be, like,

1169
01:34:44.705 --> 01:34:46.485
see the pictures of your kids,

1170
01:34:46.865 --> 01:34:51.620
receive the pictures of of her kids. Like, that's that's the most human way of expressing

1171
01:34:52.480 --> 01:34:53.620
why we need privacy.

1172
01:34:54.080 --> 01:35:00.100
And at this point, it's kind of accepted. We've due to this incredible work that activists and educators

1173
01:35:00.640 --> 01:35:01.700
have done for decades,

1174
01:35:02.080 --> 01:35:02.980
now we can talk

1175
01:35:03.435 --> 01:35:12.655
about messaging privacy in a human way and not in a, like well well, the the terrorists, they would they would then, you know, send messages,

1176
01:35:13.034 --> 01:35:19.530
and, you know, bad people would use privacy preserving methods and so on. Like, that is what the discussion was

1177
01:35:20.070 --> 01:35:28.650
a couple decades ago. Whereas right now, we've seen a normalization of messaging privacy due to this relentless work. And I think the work

1178
01:35:29.190 --> 01:35:33.645
this you know, the amount of work that we need to do for for financial privacy

1179
01:35:33.945 --> 01:35:37.005
is still you know, it's a it's a very big

1180
01:35:37.545 --> 01:35:43.965
amount of work that we still need to do. We're still at the beginning of this whole conversation where financial privacy is seen

1181
01:35:44.345 --> 01:35:45.645
primarily as something

1182
01:35:46.120 --> 01:35:50.780
that would only be people who who has who have bad intentions would wanna wanna have.

1183
01:35:51.320 --> 01:35:51.980
You know,

1184
01:35:52.440 --> 01:35:58.140
the the exact like, even the the law says the exact opposite. So in in The United States where

1185
01:35:58.555 --> 01:36:11.055
financial privacy is part of your human rights. It is like when you move money, you should also be able to enjoy the same level of privacy that you have have had for for for centuries already when we were using cash.

1186
01:36:11.610 --> 01:36:18.190
We just completely lost that idea somewhere along the way and got used to the fact that we're completely traceable and transparent.

1187
01:36:18.730 --> 01:36:19.230
And,

1188
01:36:20.489 --> 01:36:21.710
like, the vast majority

1189
01:36:22.409 --> 01:36:23.630
of users use

1190
01:36:24.235 --> 01:36:29.055
systems where they have zero privacy. It's not on chain Bitcoin. It's not Lightning. It's not Spark.

1191
01:36:29.835 --> 01:36:31.775
But it's these huge financial institutions

1192
01:36:32.235 --> 01:36:35.135
that have completely departed from the concept of providing

1193
01:36:35.835 --> 01:36:39.135
basic levels of privacy for basic levels of human rights.

1194
01:36:39.530 --> 01:36:45.390
And, that's what we're trying to fix. I hope I hope that we will achieve that because, you know,

1195
01:36:45.770 --> 01:36:48.510
if you zoom out a bit and you look at

1196
01:36:48.890 --> 01:36:51.710
around what's around the entire Bitcoin space,

1197
01:36:52.155 --> 01:36:54.335
it's pretty bleak. And there's

1198
01:36:54.715 --> 01:36:56.095
there's so much to fix.

1199
01:36:56.555 --> 01:36:58.335
So that's what we're trying to do.

1200
01:36:59.275 --> 01:37:00.575
Incredibly well said

1201
01:37:01.035 --> 01:37:01.775
as always.

1202
01:37:03.195 --> 01:37:05.855
But we officially passed the hour and a half mark.

1203
01:37:06.590 --> 01:37:08.690
I wanna be very conscious of your time.

1204
01:37:10.190 --> 01:37:12.850
So I think we should wrap. But before we wrap,

1205
01:37:14.510 --> 01:37:16.850
in terms of financial privacy and blockchains,

1206
01:37:17.230 --> 01:37:18.050
I mean, there's

1207
01:37:18.765 --> 01:37:20.865
been a lot of hype and excitement,

1208
01:37:22.285 --> 01:37:24.545
particularly in in Bitcoin land,

1209
01:37:25.485 --> 01:37:28.385
but also among, you know, tech bros and

1210
01:37:30.045 --> 01:37:33.185
very influential people about Zcash. And I'm curious.

1211
01:37:34.590 --> 01:37:37.170
I've I mean, I'm not that curious

1212
01:37:37.710 --> 01:37:44.850
of your opinion, but I think the freaks might be curious of your opinion on Zcash and how you think about that current hype cycle that's going on over there,

1213
01:37:46.030 --> 01:37:48.050
versus something like Cashew on Bitcoin.

1214
01:37:50.415 --> 01:37:54.835
So, I mean, do you know this this meme where it says, like, I don't even think about you?

1215
01:37:55.375 --> 01:38:04.770
Yeah. The madman meme. I love that meme. That that's kind of my take. Like, I I don't know. I've seen these things come and go. It's obviously a coordinated psyop to pump a shitcoin.

1216
01:38:05.630 --> 01:38:08.930
Everyone suddenly talks about the same thing. We've I've seen this

1217
01:38:09.630 --> 01:38:10.610
more than once.

1218
01:38:10.990 --> 01:38:12.850
Like, I really don't care about Zcash.

1219
01:38:14.935 --> 01:38:23.755
I really don't care about any Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin is you know, that's the main focus. The main focus is fix the money, fix the world, and then

1220
01:38:24.215 --> 01:38:25.755
improve the rest of the world

1221
01:38:26.170 --> 01:38:31.550
using Bitcoin. That is the most likely scenario that I can see. Everything else is just a pure disreactions.

1222
01:38:32.170 --> 01:38:33.130
I I really

1223
01:38:34.889 --> 01:38:36.030
as much as I respect

1224
01:38:37.530 --> 01:38:38.349
the methodology,

1225
01:38:38.650 --> 01:38:39.309
the academics,

1226
01:38:39.690 --> 01:38:40.190
the

1227
01:38:40.615 --> 01:38:41.115
cryptographers,

1228
01:38:41.495 --> 01:38:47.995
the developers working on these projects, I really do think that they are valuable and their work is, you know, is

1229
01:38:48.455 --> 01:38:53.990
is is good by itself. I think the project that they focus on is just a waste of time. So

1230
01:38:54.450 --> 01:38:58.790
as long if anyone is listening, you should, like, you know, think about your life choices,

1231
01:38:59.330 --> 01:39:01.670
step back, and look at what you're

1232
01:39:02.130 --> 01:39:14.205
putting your energy into. You should put your focus on to Bitcoin because, like, that's that's what's going to win. And all these, you know, pumps and dumps are just, like, temporary noise in my opinion. So

1233
01:39:14.665 --> 01:39:20.185
I really couldn't care less. So, if you're interested in privacy, check out Casio, and,

1234
01:39:20.900 --> 01:39:24.599
you should only focus on Bitcoin. Everything else is, is probably a scam.

1235
01:39:26.179 --> 01:39:28.599
But, yeah, if you wanna check out Cashew, by the way,

1236
01:39:29.139 --> 01:39:39.745
you know, before we close here, I wanna plug something else, which is not November. It is a we still have, like, a couple days left in November. I don't know when this podcast will come out, but I'll release it today.

1237
01:39:40.605 --> 01:39:43.905
That's awesome. So you still have, like, almost a week to join

1238
01:39:44.285 --> 01:39:47.825
our month long hackathon that we've been running for

1239
01:39:48.130 --> 01:39:51.750
already couple weeks. You can check it out on notnovember.org.

1240
01:39:52.530 --> 01:39:55.350
And we are we welcome anyone

1241
01:39:55.730 --> 01:40:04.465
who's you know, people who haven't called it yet, people who wanna do everything with AI, or people who just wanna do, you know, raw dog it and code the old fashioned way.

1242
01:40:05.325 --> 01:40:07.265
If you wanna build anything

1243
01:40:07.645 --> 01:40:08.545
using Cashew,

1244
01:40:09.165 --> 01:40:12.845
check out that hackathon. We have a bunch of prizes that people have,

1245
01:40:13.405 --> 01:40:16.625
contributed to, and you can send in your your,

1246
01:40:17.005 --> 01:40:19.010
project and hopefully win.

1247
01:40:19.550 --> 01:40:29.969
We're doing this to increase the number of Bitcoin devs. So if you wanna support us as well, you can also leave a donation for the prize pool, and we're going to distribute 100% to the to the hackathon products.

1248
01:40:30.645 --> 01:40:32.505
Check it out on nutnovember.org.

1249
01:40:33.045 --> 01:40:34.325
Nutnovember.org.

1250
01:40:34.325 --> 01:40:36.025
I'll put that on the show notes as well.

1251
01:40:37.365 --> 01:40:42.025
On the BitChat side, if people wanna contribute to BitChat, what's the best way for them to get involved?

1252
01:40:43.140 --> 01:40:50.660
Yeah. BitChats, the best way to get involved is on GitHub right now. We don't have, like, any community events or anything like that, yet,

1253
01:40:51.140 --> 01:41:02.335
might come, but, we have a bunch of issues open. Lots of people having, you know, eyes on BitChat. So if you wanna if you're a Kotlin dev and you wanna help me with Android,

1254
01:41:03.034 --> 01:41:03.695
check out,

1255
01:41:04.554 --> 01:41:08.974
permissionless tech slash BitChat dash Android. That's on GitHub.

1256
01:41:09.275 --> 01:41:13.614
And if you're an iOS dev, then it's permissionless tech slash BitChat.

1257
01:41:14.420 --> 01:41:18.040
We have our GitHub repost, lots of issues open. We welcome contributions

1258
01:41:18.659 --> 01:41:27.960
from others. So just get involved, start coding. The best way to get involved is to just start doing things. If you wanna be, you know, if you wanna

1259
01:41:28.425 --> 01:41:29.565
be recognized

1260
01:41:30.425 --> 01:41:33.405
and separate yourself from the noise out there,

1261
01:41:33.945 --> 01:41:43.290
then you just need to sit down and code. It's just like there's only one single way. Like, people ask me all the time, how do I get started? Where should I do? Like, just start doing. Like, even,

1262
01:41:43.850 --> 01:41:47.550
you know, ruminating that question is a waste of time. You have

1263
01:41:48.010 --> 01:41:54.670
I'm sure there are projects that you like out there in the Bitcoin space or somewhere, some project that you use.

1264
01:41:55.210 --> 01:41:59.405
Go to their GitHub, check out their issues, and start coding. If you wanna get recognition

1265
01:41:59.865 --> 01:42:09.405
and be part of a team and build with that team, the best way to get started is to ship all requests. That's what makes people aware of your existence.

1266
01:42:09.865 --> 01:42:10.845
It's not like,

1267
01:42:11.900 --> 01:42:17.679
one day, I'll start looking into blah blah blah blah blah. You're no. Stop talking. Just start coding.

1268
01:42:18.219 --> 01:42:45.730
It's the best way to get involved. It's the best way you can contribute to things happening. And literally, coding is magic. If you wanna be as close as possible to being a magician in the twenty first century is to write code. You can transform your ideas into the movements of electrons using code. This is, like, the the most agency that you can feel in today's world is maybe, like, Odell will will say, start a family. You can also start a family. Okay. Do that. Right? You can do,

1269
01:42:46.270 --> 01:42:50.850
be a very, you know, purposeful in your in your, microcosm.

1270
01:42:51.390 --> 01:42:53.650
But if you wanna change the world in today's

1271
01:42:54.175 --> 01:43:11.309
twenty first century, the best way to do that is to become a programmer. You don't need to protest. You don't need to go into, like, a political campaign, convince people of your ideas. No. You sit down, you write code, you publish it, and you just keep doing that, and you will have an impact. This is the best way of getting involved today.

1272
01:43:11.929 --> 01:43:19.550
And, in the Bitcoin space, we need you the most. Like, we desperately need people like you who will, you know,

1273
01:43:20.015 --> 01:43:24.355
put their giant pipe job aside for a couple of hours a week and

1274
01:43:24.655 --> 01:43:27.715
and contribute to a humanity level project

1275
01:43:28.575 --> 01:43:32.595
that is Bitcoin that only survives because people make that decision.

1276
01:43:32.980 --> 01:43:36.520
It's only those people who make the decision who drives this project forward.

1277
01:43:37.699 --> 01:43:47.719
Sit down, go to GitHub, find a project you like, read the issues, and open pull requests. Talk to the people, say, hi. I exist. I wanna help. How can I help? Write

1278
01:43:48.155 --> 01:44:00.810
code and submit it to repos? This is the way. This is how I started. This is how everyone I know who works on Casio today started is by being interested in it, getting involved, and you can do it. Love it.

1279
01:44:01.370 --> 01:44:04.030
You can have babies at the same time too.

1280
01:44:04.490 --> 01:44:06.190
Oh, you can also have babies. Yeah.

1281
01:44:08.170 --> 01:44:08.670
I,

1282
01:44:09.610 --> 01:44:10.510
this is awesome.

1283
01:44:10.970 --> 01:44:12.250
Last time, I had

1284
01:44:12.905 --> 01:44:18.765
last time I had you on the show, BitChat wasn't on the official Android Play Store. Now it is.

1285
01:44:19.705 --> 01:44:22.125
So you can just search BitChat in your favorite

1286
01:44:22.905 --> 01:44:25.325
app store, whether that's iOS or Android.

1287
01:44:26.700 --> 01:44:29.680
The main domain is bitchat.free.

1288
01:44:30.220 --> 01:44:35.900
What's the main domain for Casagio? What's the best domain for people to go to for Casagio stuff? That is casagio.space,

1289
01:44:35.900 --> 01:44:38.480
cashu.space.

1290
01:44:39.145 --> 01:44:40.425
There you go. Cashu.space.

1291
01:44:40.425 --> 01:44:42.605
I'll put all these links in the show notes.

1292
01:44:45.225 --> 01:44:45.725
Awesome.

1293
01:44:46.505 --> 01:44:53.760
Should we do this again in six months? Great conversation. Serve in six months. Yeah. Definitely. That would be enough to fill out. I'm sure.

1294
01:44:54.159 --> 01:45:00.179
We always have more to talk about than time allows. I mean, we could go for hours and hours and hours. It's the best.

1295
01:45:01.519 --> 01:45:02.579
This has been great.

1296
01:45:04.159 --> 01:45:08.514
It is now pouring over here by me. Starting to storm real hard.

1297
01:45:09.215 --> 01:45:14.195
Freaks, American freaks, happy Thanksgiving. I got family in town. I'm sure you have family in town.

1298
01:45:16.175 --> 01:45:18.275
Preach a good word of Freedom Tech to them.

1299
01:45:18.655 --> 01:45:20.355
Don't forget to like and subscribe

1300
01:45:20.820 --> 01:45:30.280
and send some zaps. Odell really, really, really deserve this. Like, I just wanted, like, Odell, you're like a you're a fucking legend. Like, you're the

1301
01:45:30.820 --> 01:45:37.545
the best fit corner I know probably. Like, I just wanna give a huge shout out to everything you're doing. I think, like, you're a bit,

1302
01:45:38.245 --> 01:45:47.225
in you know, you've you've walked a bit off the big stage and doing your thing now, but you're still, like, massively impactful. I just wanna say thank you for everything you're doing.

1303
01:45:47.550 --> 01:45:50.370
Your work with OpenSets is immense.

1304
01:45:50.990 --> 01:45:51.810
Don't think

1305
01:45:52.430 --> 01:45:54.770
that most people recognize how much,

1306
01:45:55.310 --> 01:46:01.010
like, you have done with OpenSets. You have done how much you've done for Bitcoin and Noster. It's incredible.

1307
01:46:01.470 --> 01:46:04.945
The amount of work that you're putting out there is crazy.

1308
01:46:05.485 --> 01:46:11.505
So the least you can do, Freaks, is to send a big fat Zap as a form of recognition to sort of dispatch.

1309
01:46:11.805 --> 01:46:17.185
Like and subscribe to show. If you're on YouTube, leave a comment. If you're on Spotify, it really helps if you leave a comment.

1310
01:46:17.710 --> 01:46:18.690
Boost the engagement.

1311
01:46:19.869 --> 01:46:25.730
Pump this show up into the charts, and you just send send a nice message to Adel.

1312
01:46:26.670 --> 01:46:29.010
He's he's really doing Satoshi's work.

1313
01:46:29.389 --> 01:46:30.225
So thank you.

1314
01:46:30.705 --> 01:46:35.765
Thank you, sir. Means a lot coming from you. I treasure our friendship, and, I appreciate all the work you do.

1315
01:46:36.305 --> 01:46:39.365
Freaks, all the relevant links are still at dispatch.com.

1316
01:46:40.545 --> 01:46:41.765
No stats are precious.

1317
01:46:42.560 --> 01:46:44.900
Sharing it with your friends and family goes a long way.

1318
01:46:46.640 --> 01:46:50.660
So while you're preaching the good word of Freedom Tech this this week,

1319
01:46:51.600 --> 01:46:53.460
consider sharing dispatch with them.

1320
01:46:54.800 --> 01:46:56.180
Ali, pleasure as always.

1321
01:46:57.680 --> 01:47:00.820
As always, thank you for having me. I'll see you around, man.

1322
01:47:01.360 --> 01:47:04.260
Freaks. Love you all. Stay humble, StackSats. Peace.

1323
01:47:04.880 --> 01:47:05.380
Peace.