CD183: NVK - COINKITE AND COLDCARD

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 11/11/2025 20:15:58
Duration: 6356.084
Channels: 1

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday,

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freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and FreedomTech

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discussion.

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Well, I guess, historically, it's been interactive and live, but the last three rips

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have been audio only and not live, and I've been liking the vibe. So I'm gonna run with it for a bit longer.

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Maybe we'll go back to live. Maybe we won't.

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Just having fun with it. Hope you guys have been enjoying the rips. As always, dispatch is ad free, sponsor free, supported by viewers like you with Bitcoin.

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All relevant links are at silldispatch.com.

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Share with your friends and family. The top zaps for the last two episodes,

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was, the top zap for the Francis episode was 21,000 sats from stimmy

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40 HPW.

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He said great rip.

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So was Francis. Congratulations to you and your family. That was a mistake. That was from the last rip that I did,

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on arcade.

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The top zap from the Francis rip was doctor doggy balls. He said epic rip. Francis is the type of technical fearless cypherpunk

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we need more of in this space.

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Thank you, Freaks, for continuing to support the show.

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I hope you've been enjoying it. I know there was a lot of good feedback from the Alex rip, the Millian rip, the Francis rip.

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So we're gonna keep the signal going. Today, I got good friend,

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return guest,

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MVK,

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cofounder of CoinKite. You might know the cold card or the block clock. How's it going, MVK?

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Good, man. How's it going, Matt? Thanks for having me.

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It's good to always good to have a chat. Always good to have a chat.

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I'm happy to be part of the downgrade into,

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no livestream.

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Well, you know, RHR used to be no live audio only,

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and our SIL dispatches are always audio only anyway.

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But, yeah, I'm just having fun with it. I enjoy I feel like the conversation video, man. Screw video. Fuck video.

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I feel like the conversation ends up being better,

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because people are more laid back. You don't have a, you know, four k camera on you.

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I think the audio quality comes out better, but we'll see how it goes. Freaks, as always, you can provide feedback on Primal,

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any Nostra app, fountain podcast. I love your comments. I love your the zaps, obviously.

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It's a real skin in the game.

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But, yeah, give me your feedback, and we'll just keep the signal going. But MBK, anyway, the freaks know I love cold card. I guess start off with we'll start off with just a quick disclosure that,

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my investment fund ten thirty one is the largest investor, the only external investor in CoinKite.

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We're very proud of that fact.

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But I've been using Coldcard since way before we invested. That's why we invested.

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I've been using Coldcard since the MK one with its shitty

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glitchy buttons.

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So

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what's new with Coldcard? You guys have been releasing a bunch of updates. It's hard for me to keep track of,

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everything that's been coming out.

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Yeah, man. It's like,

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there is there's so many new users to Bitcoin. I I know it's hard to to, like, break through the the stupid narrative on Twitter of, like, you

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know, it's hard to use or,

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you know, there there is no new people in in Bitcoin. They're all buying ETF blah blah blah blah blah. Right? But reality is there is, like, tens of thousands of people who are

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actually new and actually have Bitcoin and have actual need of self custody.

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So

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Yeah. I mean, I I'm just gonna cut you off real quick. Like, I think there's two things that people like, perspective wise, it's the percentage of total Bitcoiners that are holding Bitcoin in self custody

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is

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is lower than it has been before because we have ETFs, because we have Bitcoin stocks, because we have a bunch of different custodial options.

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But, like, the absolute number of Bitcoin hold Bitcoin Bitcoiners holding self custody, like, the total number of people is just up into the right. We have way more people holding self custody than ever before. I mean, it's crazy that, like, you know, a company that makes a weird little

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clear plastic device with a keyboard on it. You know, like, it's a real mid sized business. You

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know? Like,

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it's like we're we're not small business.

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And, you you know, that's, like, proof that there is a market out there for people who really give a shit.

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And, you know but because there is so many new people in

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and they all live in different countries, they all live in different cities, they all have different economic

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capacities.

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They all have different family types. You know? Like, there's a lot of diversity

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on the type of user. We have to design for them. Right? Like, we we have to have a large design space

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for their needs.

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You know, if you live in a country where, you know, like, you have a security guard to go to the mall,

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you have a different type of security need than, you know, some guy who lives in New York and can walk to Starbucks alone even though maybe he's, you know, a 100 millionaire. Right?

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So we we have to come up with solutions for that.

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And then on top of that, there's been a massive shift in the last five years

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of our core user base that no longer lives in the same place.

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Like, you know, seriously, like, I I'd say, like, like, a good half of our users, which is, like, the largest amount of Bitcoiners

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who hold Bitcoin,

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who, you know,

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who hold Bitcoin,

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in self custody in a hardware wallet. It's you know, that's that's cold card users. Right?

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They

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decided to move. Like, a good half of them decided to move countries.

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And now, like, they they are the digital nomads or or they're just, like, between countries.

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They're they're testing out new places. So we have to we have to support in the design space,

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a type of usability that now requires multiple residences that that require, you know, crossing borders. They require all this stuff.

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That's becoming the norm. Right?

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So so a lot of the requirements have progressed, changed, evolved,

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and that's where we've been sort of, like, really focusing in the last couple years in terms of updates.

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I mean, it's both a it's both a benefit and a curse of the cold cards. Right? Is that, like, it's

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you can use it in a million different ways depending on your threat model,

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use case and technical competence, but,

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that that can be quite overwhelming for people because they overthink

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they they have a lot of decisions to make when they use your products. You know? I mean, we we make we make a very sort of conscious ethical decision

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on we do not make cold card app. There's not gonna be a cold card app on your phone

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because we we don't believe that is the ethical thing to do. It it really is that simple. Like, a a you should have it at minimum two vendors

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between you and your cold card and your wallet and your, Bitcoin is being spent.

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Right?

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The the app could lie to you. There's all kinds of issues on that. We can get into that later. But the the point is so so that does

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create

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a a slight barrier of entry. Right? So now you're dependent on Cove, you're dependent on Sparrow, you're dependent on Cove. A big win. I since you've last been on, Cove didn't exist before.

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That's right. I just onboarded

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one of my my only buddy who

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who listened to me in high school and bought Bitcoin.

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I, unfortunately, did not discover Bitcoin in high school, but he was my high school friend. And when I was in college, I told him to buy Bitcoin,

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and he listened to me.

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And

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at the time,

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you know, I think I onboarded him originally to a paper wallet. I had one of those, like, paper wallet printers.

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And then when we upgraded him from a paper wallet,

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Coldcard was still a little bit too complicated. Like, I think it might have been even pre Sparrow,

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and I onboarded him to Ledger. Well, it's definitely pre Sparrow if you're in college.

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No. Yeah. But I'm talking about, like, Coldcard existed. I had the option to onboard him to Coldcard, but I onboard I moved him from a paper wallet to

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I moved him from a paper wallet to Ledger because I thought Coldcard was too complicated at that point. And then I just recently moved him to a Coldcard queue with Cove because it was, like, finally,

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like, this guy is,

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you know, he's he's he was he was smart enough to stack and hold, but he's technically,

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very

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The experience with Q and and Cove, it's it's,

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like, it doesn't get easier than that. It's easier than That's what I'm saying. It was it was intuitive to him. Right? And, like, so Cove what Cove came out, you know, six months ago. I feel like that was the the fact that you didn't have your own

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app was a big hold off for a lot of people, and Cove kind of filled that hole. Now the big issue, I think, with Cove right now is that it's iPhone only.

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It's coming. It's coming.

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Also, now there is a Bull Bitcoin that has both iOS and Android, similar experience with you can't send? It's watch only, I think.

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I think you can send.

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I I was testing it out. I like so I just had Francis on.

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Have you tested it out? No. I have not tested myself yet. I just I had Francis on two rips ago, and I really like Bullwala. I think it's a good trade off balance. I think it's a fantastic spending wallet. I think it's great as, like, the go between.

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But I'm pretty sure right now I was testing it

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I was testing it out with, one of my test cold card queues,

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two days ago,

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because of that sparrow issue that I was telling you about. And I think, it was,

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I think it's just for deposits.

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Okay.

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The idea being that you receive on lightning from your exchange or you receive on liquid from your exchange, and then you auto deposit to your cold storage. Yeah. My guess is that he's gonna they're gonna enable spending. They're moving quite quickly. Easy.

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But I don't think it's enabled yet. Yeah. But yeah. But it while it is is multi platform, which is nice. Yeah. But, anyways, I mean, like, reality is,

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you know, the majority of the people who have significant funds in Bitcoin end up migrating to a computer with Sparrow anyways.

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Like, it is, you know, it's it's it's nice to it's it's great that it can start with code

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on and and get started with a harder wallet.

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You know, if that's, like, Sats card, if that's cold card, if that's, like, you know, some other harder wallet, whatever it is. It's all open standards.

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And oh, yeah. You can spend from cold card. Francis says right here. Oh, you just asked him? Yeah. Okay. Well, it's not as intuitive as it could be. Well, I mean, you know, you'll get there.

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I mean, like, I got I got kids now. I think I spent,

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a cumulative twenty minutes trying to It's all good, man. I like kids screaming in the background, but I couldn't get it I couldn't get it to spend from the cold card. Yeah. It's, it's there's a lot of stuff out there too. It's hard to keep track.

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So, anyway, so so the the point is, like, you know,

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I I think that once I think no. I mean, like, we see it on the user base and we see the from feedback. Right? That as soon as people have significant amount of money,

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they move to the computer experience. The same way you don't you don't send, you know, like, a million dollars wire from your phone. Like, you go, you log in into your web doesn't let me send wires from my phone.

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Well, you you get there. You need your little token shit and all and all that stuff. Plus, I mean, mean, you know, who has a million dollars in fiat left in this space? But,

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the the the point is,

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I I think there is a progression on the experience that is important to sort of You think that's true? I mean, like, I I definitely

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I a 100% prefer desktop. I mean Yeah. The sparrow experience is way better. We we see Matt, we see it from customers. Like,

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you know, the the part that's not visible to people is, like, how much just imagine with the size of install base, Coldcard has. Right? With the it's eight years being the biggest hardware wallet for Bitcoiners.

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Right?

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Like, the kind of feedback we get internally that we can't share,

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it's it's ginormous. Like, we see the volume of support, where it comes from. Like, the different demographic. Maybe the cold card demographic, but, like, I'd be interested in, like, the ledger stats. Like, I I I bet you the majority of ledger users are like, especially younger people. I think younger

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Younger peep but younger people like mobile. Like, this guy I'm gonna use this guy as an example again. This kid. This kid. He's he's my age. I,

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but his technical level is kid level. I

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Bitcoin. It's a large amount for him.

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He likes having it, you know, on mobile. He likes being able to, you know, when he wakes up in the middle of the night with cold sweats and thinking he doesn't he lost his Bitcoin, like, checking the balance on mobile, you know, and looking at it. He would never use a desktop wallet.

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Well, maybe It doesn't matter how much it is. Maybe maybe when he decides to spend a large amount, he might.

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But it doesn't matter. The point is that,

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you know, now it's possible to do it on the phone. Right.

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You know, people who have a lot of Bitcoin tend to be older,

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so they they are more desktop friendly.

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Yeah.

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And,

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you know,

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you're getting like, with this experience, like, it's just so stupid easy.

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Like, it is hard to convey to people because people are used to the old experiences that they had with hardware wallets. They have not tried to just scan a QR on a phone, on a cold card, and then tap the phone

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to broadcast a transaction.

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Like Yeah. The QR code, by the way, works it feels better on phone than it feels on Yeah. Because the phone wall the phone has a better camera. And it's, like, awkward holding it up to the webcam or whatever versus, like,

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just pointing the camera. You just do push t x. Right? You just tap. So you scan Sparrow.

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Right? Oh, I see what you're saying. You don't do the second step, then you tap on the phone. Yes.

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Once you try that experience, it's hard to to try to wanna do anything else. Like, it really is simple.

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Right. So you're setting up the in your in your

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in your use case, you're set you're setting up your transaction on on Sparrow on desktop,

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then you're scanning it once with the cold card queue

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or loading with SD card, signing it. And then instead of transferring it back to Sparrow to broadcast, you're just tapping it for a broadcast. Yeah. And that works at Cove as well. Right? So, like, I I do that myself. Like, you just scan

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cove from cold card, and then it just tap and boom. Done.

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Push that really fucking awesome. No. Dude, like, push the axis. It's a game changer. Like, it really is game changer.

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I personally haven't used an SD card in a long time.

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Anyways, so so we're trying to support all these use cases. Right?

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And

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Okay. So let's go through the use cases. Let's go the big one for me is is borders. Borders are if Yes. You're either ignorant or you're scared of borders. There's no Yes. There's no there's no in between. Like, borders are, like, in the modern day, if you're a big foreigner, it's probably the worst thing you can do. Yeah. You have no rights. You have no rights on a border. Right? Yeah. So how do you guys think about borders and cold cards and So there is a few there's a few models, right, that and and it really depends on what kind of use or what kind of threat model you have personally. Right? But

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people do carry their micro SD cards cross borders. I don't recommend taking devices.

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If you do carry a device, then make sure you're compliant with, you know, the the amount

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of coin you can have for the border crossing. You know, there there's all kinds of

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compliance issues around that. Under 10,000,000 sats or whatever. Right.

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But then what a lot of people do is, you know, they will have, you know, a device set up on the other location.

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Like, you know, say for some, they're moving. Right?

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People either take a micro SD card,

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with, like, part of the multisig or they also take, just a cold card backup.

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Micro SD card. Encrypted micro USD

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micro SD backup?

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Yep. Another thing that people do now is they have somebody else, you know, on the other side that, like, family kind of thing, and they say they need to send, you know, some they need to send the backup of the cold card. They just do key teleport.

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Yeah. So explain key teleport.

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So

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the the the problem

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was

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if you're trying to send an encrypted piece of information from one place to another,

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you you have to use something to encrypt it. So you have to trust your computer, and you cannot trust your computer with keys.

191
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Right? You're, like, making a password to encrypt it or whatever.

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Yeah. But, you know, the computer can see your private keys, clear text, right, which is terrible. No. You're literally typing your password into the computer.

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And you can't trust the comms either. Right? You can't trust the chats. You can't trust the the phone. You can't trust the Internet. You can't trust anything. So what do you trust? Like pasting a seed into signal or whatever is probably not the worst thing, but you shouldn't do it. It's it's it's up there the worst thing, especially if you're using

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signal on a computer.

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Remember the clipboard on a computer is seen by all the apps.

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Right. Like, literally. Like, it's really bad.

197
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So so, anyway, so what what we did was you already trust your cold card with your most ultimate secret, which is your private key. Right?

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So we created a protocol

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for you to send

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encrypted data from a cold card to another cold card

201
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independent of Medium.

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So you can use it in a video call with QR codes. You can do it with a link.

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You can use it, you know, in a chat message. All kind anything really, there is a way to do it now.

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And all you have to do really is that the receiver shows a QR code or link

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to the other party. The other party essentially scans with your cold card.

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So what? Like, we're doing, like, a signal video call or, like, a FaceTime or something. Right? Yep. Yeah. Exactly. And we're not trusting the video. Like, the the We're not trusting the video. Google Meet can intercept that QR code. It doesn't matter. That's right.

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And it was done in, like, proper parallel. Like a public key exchange. So if the public key gets compromised, it doesn't matter. And then that's what's being used. That's what's being used to encrypt it. We also wrap the the

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the the key the pub key of that

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with a PIN.

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So there is a PIN on the screen on the cold card that it can give it in a separate medium if you want it to be extra paranoid. So they can give you Google Meet or FaceTime, we're sharing the QR codes with each other, and then I'm, like, signal messaging them the PIN. Yeah.

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So now you have, like, a a protected like, a private and encrypted envelope. Right?

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And and so the other side can send to you whatever they want. They can send you a message. They can send you SSH keys if you're dev abroad. They can send you a backup the whole backup of that cold card. They can send the backup of a different cold card. They can send,

213
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BIP 30 a BIP 85 key. They can send a password if you have a password manager. Yeah. Yeah. Child key. They can send a password. They can send a note.

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Anything, really.

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And that really opens up the design space a lot. Right? So say for example, your wife is in a different country. She needs some bucks.

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You know, like,

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you you want to send like, she has access to a, like, an a Virgin cold card there or something.

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You can send her a premade cold card with a lot of money, but with spending policies, for example,

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already preset up. Okay. So let's talk about the spending policies. That's a new feature.

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Yeah.

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So we have we we created spending policies for multisig.

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Right? Yeah. I think, that was made a lot of sense. What I was saying about earlier. Like, it's Yeah. It's insane. Incredibly awesome on power users, but people get overwhelmed because there's so many different features. The the problem is that don't change. Thank you. I like all the power user features, but it's just worth if you're out there and you're overwhelmed,

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you can use cold card in an incredibly simple way. And you can start there and then you can It takes five minutes or, like, two minutes really. Yeah. You can literally just do single sig, no passphrase,

224
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no spending policies, nothing. The menu is simple on on Yeah. You know, it's remember, we're entering the advanced menu system here.

225
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Okay. Let's talk about spending policies because I think this is pretty cool. So so this is this is very nice because,

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see, a lot of times, like, the reality is single sig is what's good enough

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for most people. Like, the 80% single sig is more than adequate.

228
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And then if they have a lot of money, maybe single sig plus plus phrase. Right? Like, that's it. Like, most

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the great majority of people don't need multisig, cannot use multisig,

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realistically speaking. So so what did we do? We're like, okay. The we we know

231
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the limitation of security. The hardware, it's, like, it's pretty high. Right?

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So why Wait. Wait. Real quick. Real quick. Just on the on the multisig side, my operating

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what what I say to people, how I think about it is if you're an organization

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or if you're a public figure, multisig

235
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is probably what you should do.

236
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Like, I use multisig.

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My organizations use multisig. Yes.

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But for most people

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everyone that doesn't fall in that category, it's probably single sig. And if you're a little bit more technically competent, single sig plus passphrase, so you have a decoy wallet. I mean Specifically, like, that border that border situation. Right? They get your cold card. You can open it for them. There could be money in it. But if they don't have the passphrase, they don't have, like, the the big wallet.

240
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And another thing too is, you know, most people can keep 12 words safe. Right? Like, they can they can they can put it even in a fucking drawer, that metal plate is likely to be fine.

241
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Well, that's the nice thing about the passphrase too. If they find that plate and they don't have the passphrase We can we can cover that later. We can talk about this. Okay. Sorry.

242
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Okay. We'll talk about this later. Okay. Spending policy. Sorry. So spending policy,

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what is it? It's it's a very simple way, especially in single sig,

244
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for you to have the device enforced policy. It really is that simple. So you have a you have a PIN.

245
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If you log in, it's gonna and you set it up, you say, like, oh, I don't want you to let me spend more than 1 Bitcoin per week. I don't want you to let me spend more than,

246
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you know, in a certain way, or I don't want you to let me spend to any other address than this white list. Maybe it's your, you know, vault account or your exchange account.

247
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And I also don't

248
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and I also want you to require me to do a two FA with my Google Authenticator,

249
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for example.

250
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Right? So and it can be a mix of this. It could be a single of these, but but, essentially, that's the spending policies.

251
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So what happens is once you set it up, the device goes into what we call hobble mode. It doesn't let you see the software version. It doesn't let you see the seed. It doesn't let you do anything really. Right? It's just, like,

252
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very, very,

253
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restricted device in super simple mode. So you can give it to a company person. So now they are able to spend money. Right? Or you can give it to a, a partner that you'd like. You don't wanna put your, like, your wife at risk,

254
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right, for having more than they should be able to spend. Maybe you want her to be able to spend, you know, a thousand a week or something. That's right.

255
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Your kids, your coworkers, or whatever. Right? Or or when you try be clear here, I could you could always if you do this, you can always take the seed, restore it to a new device, and then you have no restrictions. Or even the same device. You just prove that you own that you know the seed, and you're good to go.

256
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But it it's very hardened.

257
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And, now you have a device that that, you know, like, limits what you can do. It's it's it's quite powerful.

258
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So that can be used for borders too. Right? Like, you could set it to, like, a thousand dollars a month before you cross the border. Yep. And it's it's great for fraud. It really is. If it gets confiscated,

259
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then, like,

260
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the border guards can only spend a thousand dollars a month before you sweep it. Border agents, you know, like a Brittany pin and problem resolved. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about the I think the pins remain, like, the

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single best feature that's no one ever talks about of cold card. Well, it's because nobody wants to talk their own security. Right? No one is there another I don't think there's a single other device out there with

262
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even a brick me pin, let alone No. You have, like, a million pins now. There's, like, seven different options.

263
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Yeah. What we wanted to do was And then you could, like, mix and match them. Yes. Whatever. It's crazy. We we we we renamed the rest pins to trick pins.

264
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Right? Because the the idea is to create so much design space that there is no expectation

265
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of you either having a pin that does something different,

266
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or you can do any combination. And, like, people don't have

267
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a a a pre knowledge

268
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or or an idea of what you could do. Bad guy comes into your home, he knows how ledgers work.

269
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You either you you either put in the right pin and it shows your wallet, or you put in the wrong pin three times and the thing wipes. Those are the only two options you can do.

270
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Yes. With cold card, it's just, like, limitless. Right? So,

271
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you can create, like, many pins that do different things, but you can have a pin that bricks. You can have a pin that makes the device looks virgin.

272
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You can have a pin that makes the device look virgin plus erases the c or doesn't erase the c.

273
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You know, you can have a pin that hides the passwords. Like,

274
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essentially, like,

275
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the the point is not to get overwhelmed. It's for you to to to not be limited by what the device can do, is to be limited by where your imagination

276
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and your risk appetite can do.

277
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Right?

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So you think of what you can do, and the device can sort of follow you on your,

279
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on your journey.

280
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This is very so this is the thing. Like, we

281
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we study a lot of, like, how banks handle things,

282
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and, you know, they have, you know, hundreds of years of handling stuff in safes.

283
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Right?

284
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You know, so for example, one thing that they do is they put a lock down a lockout timer. Right? So

285
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the the bank branch you have like, if you try to to get in, you have to open the the bank like, open the vault, that specific vault, let's say, three hours before you need it.

286
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So you can set code card to say, hey. Don't open

287
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for three hours, or don't open for ten hours, or don't open for half an hour. Right? So And then the bad guy has to, like, sit there for fucking

288
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three hours. They're in a which they're often in a hurry, which is, you know, tricky.

289
00:27:10.715 --> 00:27:14.975
And if they unplug, it kind of, like, starts the timer from where it was,

290
00:27:15.914 --> 00:27:18.575
or or sorry. It starts from the beginning again.

291
00:27:20.029 --> 00:27:28.529
The another thing that you do, like, is is, for example, there is a duress pin. See, like, in banks, if you type a a different pin or or a delta pin,

292
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what happens is they do a silent alarm. Right? So they start calling the authorities. Well, we can't call the authorities from a cold card because it's not a cell phone. But,

293
00:27:38.804 --> 00:27:40.745
you know, you can show a fake wallet.

294
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You can use the right What is the one of the trick pin modes is delta mode. Right? Yes.

295
00:27:46.530 --> 00:27:47.670
What does that one do?

296
00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:52.550
So delta just means you're you're doing essentially, it's like the the first pin,

297
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and then you get the last one minus

298
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the previous one.

299
00:27:57.650 --> 00:28:03.995
What does that mode do if you put in that pin? So it's just a type of it's a type of pin that's common with safes.

300
00:28:05.415 --> 00:28:11.255
So Yep. But all the trick pins do something. They all cost some You you can do whatever you want. Like, all of them

301
00:28:12.135 --> 00:28:15.595
it's just that the with the delta mode, it can be it's your real

302
00:28:16.090 --> 00:28:16.590
PIN,

303
00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:18.669
so you don't have to remember

304
00:28:19.049 --> 00:28:20.269
a new trick PIN.

305
00:28:20.570 --> 00:28:21.230
Got it.

306
00:28:21.769 --> 00:28:22.169
And,

307
00:28:22.649 --> 00:28:25.389
and But it's, like, all by one or something. Exactly.

308
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So

309
00:28:26.649 --> 00:28:28.350
the the the point is,

310
00:28:29.075 --> 00:28:31.895
again, like, in the bank industry, in the safe industry,

311
00:28:32.835 --> 00:28:39.095
like, this this types of behaviors already exist, and we have a lot of customers that already have very fancy safes.

312
00:28:39.555 --> 00:28:43.975
So we try to emulate a lot of that that behavior in the devices. Right?

313
00:28:45.929 --> 00:28:51.150
But for example, you know, how cool is it that you can show a fake wallet and wipe your seat at the same time?

314
00:28:53.610 --> 00:28:56.190
You know? So, like, you know, this is what I have.

315
00:28:56.505 --> 00:28:57.005
You

316
00:28:57.705 --> 00:28:58.685
know? Like, it's,

317
00:28:59.545 --> 00:29:00.765
it's it's quite powerful.

318
00:29:02.505 --> 00:29:08.925
I mean, the the break me pin was designed because I was crossing a border, and I forgot a code card with me. And I wanted to erase

319
00:29:09.490 --> 00:29:19.750
the seed before I crossed the border because I forgot the device with me. You're, like, literally in the customs line. You're just trying to erase like, oh, shit. I have to log in and delete the seed. Right? I'm like, no. It should be just a Britney pin.

320
00:29:20.770 --> 00:29:23.029
So so then we have a Britney pin now.

321
00:29:24.794 --> 00:29:44.520
So, anyway, so so when you start pairing some of these things, like and, you know, maybe you have to do a little bit of learning. This is not for the person using this for the first time, by the way. This is you know, you did your five minute setup. You you know, like, great. You have a cold card running. Right? Now, like, as you as you acquire more Bitcoin, you should actually learn more about what you have.

322
00:29:45.780 --> 00:29:49.240
You know, because if you're not willing to learn, you're gonna get robbed in some other way.

323
00:29:50.100 --> 00:29:51.525
That's the reality of it.

324
00:29:52.805 --> 00:29:55.945
So you learn a bit more, and and you go like, hey. You know what? Like,

325
00:29:56.645 --> 00:30:05.545
I could maybe split my seed with SeedXor. I could maybe add spending policies. I can do these things. And, you know, there is enough documentation. Documentation is awesome,

326
00:30:07.330 --> 00:30:27.485
and and you can do it. I I I don't think I don't like this narrative that people have where it's, oh, people can't do it. People are not gonna do it. No, man. Like, people can people can learn how to drive, have their whole family in the car at a 120 kilometers an hour in the highway. So, like, literally, like, if you want risk, you put your family in a car.

327
00:30:27.945 --> 00:30:30.924
That's literally a death machine by statistics. Right?

328
00:30:32.424 --> 00:30:37.140
If you can learn how to drive, you can learn how to do, like, even advanced stuff in a cold car.

329
00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:42.120
That's 75 miles per hour.

330
00:30:42.740 --> 00:30:43.640
There you go.

331
00:30:44.180 --> 00:30:45.160
I asked Maple.

332
00:30:48.020 --> 00:30:57.555
I mean, I agree with that, but, I mean, I also think, like, more options are good. Like, I I don't It's great. That's like a one I don't but I don't think it's, like, a one size fits all. Like, I don't think cold card's best for everybody.

333
00:30:57.935 --> 00:30:58.515
I agree.

334
00:30:59.855 --> 00:31:03.635
There is, like we need more options, but we need interoperable options.

335
00:31:05.670 --> 00:31:10.230
Let's talk about real quick. You mentioned Cedexor. How do you think about Cedexor? Because,

336
00:31:13.110 --> 00:31:17.210
I was gonna onboard that friend to Cedexor, and you told me not to.

337
00:31:18.434 --> 00:31:21.335
Yeah. I mean, like, you have to, like you know, it's great.

338
00:31:22.195 --> 00:31:30.855
So it's great. CDXR is really good. But, you know, again, it's an advanced feature. Right? And people need to understand that, like, it is not

339
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.020
Shamir. It's not there is no threshold.

340
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:35.059
Right?

341
00:31:35.360 --> 00:31:43.554
You have to have both parts in order to redo that seed. Right. So instead of one seed, you basically have two seeds. Right? And you need both. Yes. So

342
00:31:43.934 --> 00:31:44.434
ideally,

343
00:31:44.735 --> 00:31:48.595
the people using XOR, they do have an original seed back up somewhere,

344
00:31:49.054 --> 00:31:51.075
and maybe the XOR is just more accessible.

345
00:31:53.054 --> 00:31:56.355
Right? So if you decide to go bury your seed in Antarctica,

346
00:31:57.850 --> 00:31:59.230
you know, and you wanna

347
00:32:00.250 --> 00:32:07.549
have accessible seed again in your country where you can, you know, put one in each safe deposit box in different banks by different people,

348
00:32:07.850 --> 00:32:09.225
you know, it does work.

349
00:32:09.865 --> 00:32:10.365
But,

350
00:32:11.065 --> 00:32:13.005
how do you think about Seedexor versus,

351
00:32:13.465 --> 00:32:28.440
like, single just a regular seed with the passphrase? Because, I mean, regular seed and the passphrase is also two pieces. I think it's I like, again, I keep on saying this. Like, CDX store, very specific use cases is for very few users. Right? But people do use it.

352
00:32:29.620 --> 00:32:34.679
I still think that a single sig plus passphrase is is, like, sufficient for pretty much

353
00:32:35.059 --> 00:32:38.040
everybody except for people who have very real

354
00:32:38.605 --> 00:32:39.664
needs or companies.

355
00:32:42.284 --> 00:32:45.345
Yeah. I mean, CDX or doesn't solve that either. Then you're going to multisig.

356
00:32:45.725 --> 00:32:46.544
Yeah. Exactly.

357
00:32:46.924 --> 00:32:47.725
Because you need

358
00:32:48.765 --> 00:32:57.350
You you you can't have one person in a company be able to spend If you need to split the series in more than three pieces, just use just use multisig.

359
00:32:59.410 --> 00:33:01.650
But, technically, you can do, like, you can do a

360
00:33:02.290 --> 00:33:05.325
can you do, like, you can do, like, a four piece seed export. Right?

361
00:33:06.125 --> 00:33:22.280
No. It's only two right now. Only two? Okay. I mean, you could do Well, you wouldn't. But it gets tricky. You can do more, but it gets even trickier. No. No. The point is just use multisig. By the way, if you if you have multisig, but you're still a single person signer for this, you could

362
00:33:23.300 --> 00:33:24.280
use cold card

363
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:26.440
multisig spending policy

364
00:33:27.220 --> 00:33:29.640
so that the cold card has one key.

365
00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:33.315
You have another key. They're both in the cold card.

366
00:33:33.634 --> 00:33:35.495
Just one is protected by the

367
00:33:36.355 --> 00:33:39.894
spending policy, and then the other key is, you know, buried somewhere.

368
00:33:40.754 --> 00:33:41.815
That still works

369
00:33:42.754 --> 00:33:43.735
very well, actually.

370
00:33:44.674 --> 00:33:47.254
Was it like a one of it's like a one of two multisig?

371
00:33:47.800 --> 00:33:49.500
No. No. Two. Two out of three.

372
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:55.340
It's just that one of the seeds is, like, protected by spending policy under the same device.

373
00:33:57.080 --> 00:34:06.185
So but you would have to dig out the other you'd have to dig out the third one if you wanted to spend more than the spending policy. Exactly. Yeah. So you can bypass that by going after the other seed.

374
00:34:07.525 --> 00:34:08.985
What, I mean

375
00:34:09.605 --> 00:34:17.465
so I have a growing family. The big question all Bitcoiners are getting older now. We seem to reproduce more than the general population.

376
00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:18.780
Really?

377
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:23.420
The number one question and the number one thought on my mind all the time is inheritance.

378
00:34:23.720 --> 00:34:26.780
How do you think about inheritance and cold cards and

379
00:34:27.160 --> 00:34:28.600
all this stuff? Because that's where it gets

380
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:33.180
I mean, once again, I just keep using my my friend as an example.

381
00:34:33.545 --> 00:34:36.205
Like, his inheritance strategy is his wife

382
00:34:36.905 --> 00:34:41.085
knows to get the steel plate and then call me, which I don't think is a scalable

383
00:34:42.025 --> 00:34:44.925
first, it was a heavily trusted inheritance plan,

384
00:34:45.785 --> 00:34:47.485
but it's definitely not scalable.

385
00:34:49.390 --> 00:34:52.770
Yeah. I mean, like, you know, you can choose the aristocratic

386
00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:55.730
method, right, where you have a trusted family

387
00:34:56.110 --> 00:34:57.650
that is friends of your family.

388
00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:02.670
And, you know, maybe they hold a key and maybe you have, like, another key in a a,

389
00:35:03.455 --> 00:35:04.995
safe deposit Like a multisig

390
00:35:05.695 --> 00:35:09.315
Yeah. Trusted relationship. There's lots of, yeah, there's lots of ways to do that.

391
00:35:09.855 --> 00:35:13.955
Again, like, the question is, like, do you want the state to be part of your,

392
00:35:15.375 --> 00:35:15.875
transition,

393
00:35:16.175 --> 00:35:20.330
or you don't want the state to be part of your transition? Right? Like, generally speaking,

394
00:35:20.710 --> 00:35:25.290
if you don't want the state to be part of your transition, you're gonna have to do something that's a little bit more complicated,

395
00:35:25.750 --> 00:35:26.250
right,

396
00:35:26.870 --> 00:35:32.890
than what all the the current fiat system can do. Right? Because So what do you think do you think

397
00:35:33.625 --> 00:35:37.885
if people are thinking about inheritance, they should like, how should they think about single sig inheritance?

398
00:35:38.825 --> 00:35:41.965
Yeah. I mean, if That's what the majority of users if if

399
00:35:42.265 --> 00:35:45.085
we agree that the majority users for their threat model,

400
00:35:45.609 --> 00:35:49.550
the best balance of complexity and security is probably single sig plus passphrase.

401
00:35:50.250 --> 00:36:05.224
How should they think about inheritance though? Well, I mean, you know, like, they can pass on a seed. Right? I mean, the wife knows where the seed is. Wife takes it. Yeah. That's it. Right? I mean, it's not that long. You trust your wife is the strategy. Yeah. I mean, if you don't trust your wife, you have bigger problems.

402
00:36:05.765 --> 00:36:08.744
Right. I think that's I think that's very true.

403
00:36:09.365 --> 00:36:12.265
You know? But listen, like, for example, like,

404
00:36:12.644 --> 00:36:13.545
you know, like,

405
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:17.780
for for our situation, like, I don't I don't trust myself

406
00:36:18.160 --> 00:36:36.285
in terms of, like, personal, like, duress. Right. Right? I don't want my wife to be in a personal duress situation. You know, we are a little more known. We're not That's why multisync comes into play. Exactly. Right? Like, you know, in our situation, it would take, like, a good year for for things to be fully recovered, and it will require, like, multiple

407
00:36:36.585 --> 00:36:40.125
institutions of things. And, like, there's lots of shit going on. Right? Like I said, good luck.

408
00:36:41.545 --> 00:36:44.445
Because, again, like, the we we are known people.

409
00:36:45.020 --> 00:36:45.520
Right?

410
00:36:46.940 --> 00:36:52.320
Now if you have the benefit of never having worked in this industry, I mean, like, I'm very jealous of you.

411
00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:58.630
But, like, you can make things a lot simpler. Right? You can live you can leave, like, a a plate in a,

412
00:36:59.685 --> 00:37:01.545
in a little envelope that is,

413
00:37:04.085 --> 00:37:04.985
how do you call

414
00:37:07.605 --> 00:37:10.505
it? I mean, the word escaped my mind now. Tamper resistant?

415
00:37:10.805 --> 00:37:11.945
No. Temper evident.

416
00:37:12.819 --> 00:37:17.000
Temper evident. Like a a wax seal on it or something. Exactly. Right?

417
00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:17.960
And,

418
00:37:18.740 --> 00:37:24.465
you know, like, you you leave it there. It could be in the home. It could be in the bank. It could be whatever. Right?

419
00:37:24.865 --> 00:37:29.285
Ideally, it's two. Right? So you're using a passphrase, and they're in two separate locations.

420
00:37:29.745 --> 00:37:31.525
I mean, you could also just give, like,

421
00:37:31.985 --> 00:37:33.925
what do you think about the idea of,

422
00:37:35.265 --> 00:37:36.485
like, you have

423
00:37:37.839 --> 00:37:51.380
you have the seed phrase. The air has access to the seed phrase, but, like, the pass phrase is with with a lawyer or something. Now, like, that works. Right? Sure. That that could work. I mean, you have to trust lawyers. I rather trust But you're not really trusting them. Right? Because then they only have the pass phrase.

424
00:37:51.684 --> 00:37:55.464
Yeah. And they can't do anything with just the passphrase. Yeah. I just I don't like strangers

425
00:37:56.885 --> 00:37:58.105
to be part of anything.

426
00:37:59.924 --> 00:38:08.039
Well, you could replace lawyer with anybody. Yeah. Exactly. It could be friend. It could be whoever. And and you know what? Like, it does work. I mean, it it's not, like, you know, that complicated.

427
00:38:08.660 --> 00:38:13.720
You can even have two people just in case. You can have two copies of the passphrase. You know? Like, one of the grandparents,

428
00:38:14.020 --> 00:38:19.720
one of the with the lawyer or whatever. And, you know, who knows? Maybe one of them loses the passphrase in a fire or

429
00:38:20.045 --> 00:38:23.425
for home invasion or something, and it's still all set up. You're good.

430
00:38:24.845 --> 00:38:28.385
You can also do multisig, right, where the third key

431
00:38:28.765 --> 00:38:30.625
is somewhere that both share.

432
00:38:32.605 --> 00:38:33.425
That also

433
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:38.440
totally doable. So it's already pre set up. Right? Say say, for example, we have a living trust. Right?

434
00:38:38.980 --> 00:38:39.480
So

435
00:38:39.940 --> 00:38:44.200
the essentially, all that's gonna change is whoever's controlling that specific key

436
00:38:44.580 --> 00:38:46.120
out of the, say, five keys.

437
00:38:46.660 --> 00:38:47.145
Right?

438
00:38:48.105 --> 00:38:55.005
So you can make it very easy to pass on. Like, you can even leave it on you can even pass on a code card, you you know, like, with the seed in it,

439
00:38:55.705 --> 00:39:01.820
where the family maybe has an idea of, like, where the backup is. You give someone else the PIN?

440
00:39:02.120 --> 00:39:06.460
Yeah. They don't have to. You know, you can very easily even better. Right? Because Yep.

441
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:09.500
I mean, you have the negative that the cold card could

442
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:16.725
you could die, and the cold card could die at the same time. But you can have a backup somewhere that's very hard to get to, very hard

443
00:39:17.105 --> 00:39:19.045
to, to like, say, for example, the backup

444
00:39:19.825 --> 00:39:21.925
would take a year to get it. Right?

445
00:39:22.305 --> 00:39:26.165
Because it's, you know, it's some safe deposit box in Switzerland or something.

446
00:39:26.750 --> 00:39:36.290
And, you know, they have a time lockout for that. They also have all kinds of ways, so it's gonna take forever. But you can pass on the cold card right away. So the family eventually gets the backup.

447
00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:41.645
So they can choose to move the funds to a new set, or they can continue using the old setup.

448
00:39:43.225 --> 00:39:43.705
What,

449
00:39:44.425 --> 00:39:48.445
I mean, I think that's a good point to let's talk a little bit about,

450
00:39:49.785 --> 00:39:55.440
and it's been a while since you've been on. Like you said, there's a lot of new users. I think there's a lot of new listeners to the show.

451
00:39:58.240 --> 00:40:01.700
The physical security with the cold card. So, like, a malicious actor

452
00:40:02.560 --> 00:40:03.060
gets

453
00:40:03.839 --> 00:40:07.220
my cold card. Let's say I'm crossing a border and I have a cold card with me,

454
00:40:08.319 --> 00:40:10.579
and border patrol gets the cold card.

455
00:40:11.244 --> 00:40:12.545
They don't have the PIN.

456
00:40:13.805 --> 00:40:17.265
What stops them from spending the money? Like, how do you think about that?

457
00:40:18.125 --> 00:40:29.940
Well, I I mean, like, the the reality is, like, nothing is infallible. Right? Like, I I believe we have, you know, probably the securest device on the market, but that doesn't mean that somebody can eventually get to it.

458
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:32.020
You know,

459
00:40:32.640 --> 00:40:33.540
thus far,

460
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:35.940
no security researcher has demonstrated

461
00:40:36.240 --> 00:40:39.645
how to get the seeds out of a mark four or a cube.

462
00:40:40.365 --> 00:40:42.545
But that doesn't again, it doesn't mean that somebody

463
00:40:42.845 --> 00:40:43.905
couldn't eventually.

464
00:40:45.565 --> 00:40:49.425
The realities of these things is that, you know, it's gonna need billion dollar lab,

465
00:40:50.445 --> 00:40:54.120
and the chances is they destroy the sample trying to get it out. Right?

466
00:40:54.600 --> 00:40:57.420
Even if they have some attack. Again But why?

467
00:40:58.520 --> 00:41:13.985
What do you mean? Oh, because there is only one sample, right, for you to try your No. No. I'm saying I I want you to talk about, like, why are there two secure elements on it? Like, what setup what is the setup that you've gone with that you think makes it the most secure from a physical attack point of view?

468
00:41:14.285 --> 00:41:17.505
So we designed this after, like, you know,

469
00:41:17.885 --> 00:41:21.005
many years of of trial and error and a lot of,

470
00:41:21.485 --> 00:41:31.160
attacks from, say, Don John, and they showed us some of the things that they tried. Smudgers attack lab. Yes. So they spent millions of dollars probably on cold card thus far.

471
00:41:31.460 --> 00:41:35.800
And they broke the last one. They broke the three. Yes. Yes. They did.

472
00:41:36.340 --> 00:41:36.840
Well,

473
00:41:37.865 --> 00:41:39.724
yes. They did. But, you know,

474
00:41:41.545 --> 00:41:46.845
they being able to to repeat that is not that simple either. But, yes, they did. But in their in their

475
00:41:47.145 --> 00:41:52.980
in their they released a report where they were able to extract a seed from an m k three. Right? That's correct.

476
00:41:53.859 --> 00:41:58.200
So because that's what we're talking about here. Right? Like, people I think people should think about it like

477
00:41:58.740 --> 00:42:08.200
think of think of a cold card as, like, a safe around your seed. Right? Your seed is your secret back upwards. That's what hold that's what gives you the ability to spend your money, and the cold card is effectively,

478
00:42:08.964 --> 00:42:09.704
you know,

479
00:42:10.005 --> 00:42:10.744
an incredibly

480
00:42:11.045 --> 00:42:11.545
technological

481
00:42:11.845 --> 00:42:16.505
safe that sits around it and protects people from getting access to that seed. Right? That's right.

482
00:42:16.805 --> 00:42:18.825
So we we have a nice design document,

483
00:42:19.125 --> 00:42:20.345
that's, like, human

484
00:42:20.724 --> 00:42:29.570
human legible. So it's not for just techy people on the blog. I can link to that later. But the the point is so what did we do? We we know

485
00:42:29.870 --> 00:42:33.890
secure elements have limits. Right? We also don't trust

486
00:42:34.590 --> 00:42:35.330
any vendor.

487
00:42:36.765 --> 00:42:43.825
So what we did is we have essentially three parts to the security. Right? There's two secure elements, and there is a CPU.

488
00:42:44.125 --> 00:42:51.750
Right? We call that an MCU because of the type of chip, but let's say it's a CPU. It's where the the the magic, like, a lot of the computation happens.

489
00:42:52.849 --> 00:43:00.150
So what we do is we take a secret from one secure element, a secret from another secure element, and a secret from the MCU,

490
00:43:01.250 --> 00:43:03.349
and then we combine those three

491
00:43:04.325 --> 00:43:05.065
to make

492
00:43:06.085 --> 00:43:07.464
the key that decrypts

493
00:43:08.164 --> 00:43:08.904
the seed.

494
00:43:09.845 --> 00:43:11.785
Right? And that's protected by your pin.

495
00:43:12.885 --> 00:43:15.944
So in order to break a cold card,

496
00:43:16.560 --> 00:43:18.500
okay, you would have to

497
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:20.340
break the three chips

498
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:21.860
that we use

499
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:25.220
without damaging any of them in order to get to the sea.

500
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:30.580
And that has proven to be a very effective way of securing a sea.

501
00:43:30.954 --> 00:43:36.655
So much so that another big hardware wallet right now just announced they're gonna have two secure elements even though they're always gonna get secure elements.

502
00:43:37.035 --> 00:43:40.815
Choice is secure yeah. Poor choices and secure elements, but,

503
00:43:42.155 --> 00:43:45.694
they they are trying to do something. Why were they poor choices?

504
00:43:46.569 --> 00:43:47.069
So,

505
00:43:48.329 --> 00:43:52.349
Tropic Square is version one, right, of Secure Elements. It's gonna get owned

506
00:43:53.210 --> 00:44:00.910
That's their own in house Secure Element, open source, no NDA that they created. Source, but yeah. Okay. All the analogs are closed.

507
00:44:02.605 --> 00:44:03.105
The

508
00:44:03.725 --> 00:44:04.625
and then Optiga,

509
00:44:04.925 --> 00:44:09.745
the other secure element that they use is the same secure element on UB that's been broken already.

510
00:44:12.205 --> 00:44:16.385
And the MCU is the same MCU they had before that's been broken already. So

511
00:44:16.990 --> 00:44:20.610
it it significant improvement over Yes. Where they were before.

512
00:44:20.910 --> 00:44:29.385
They're the hardware. Really nice. To be clear, I I I held the hardware in my hand. Beautiful. It's really nice hardware. It really is beautiful. In Lugano, I held the hardware. Yeah.

513
00:44:30.105 --> 00:44:33.645
They're very good at at, like, making very sort of beautiful hardware.

514
00:44:34.105 --> 00:44:35.245
I don't know. The last

515
00:44:36.185 --> 00:44:41.085
the last one was kinda, but the new one like, I have I have a last one right here,

516
00:44:41.385 --> 00:44:44.765
but the oh, but you only you can see it because there's no video.

517
00:44:45.730 --> 00:44:52.870
The new one has, like, a really nice big touchscreen. It's I think it's, like, all metal construction. It's, like, it's a bit it was a big improvement for them.

518
00:44:53.170 --> 00:44:53.670
Yes.

519
00:44:54.130 --> 00:44:59.990
Well, they did have a a problem. Like, I mean, like, the the t, I don't think, was, flying off the shelves.

520
00:45:01.015 --> 00:45:07.035
But that's that's the original one. Right? No. The the original one is still for sale on Amazon by them.

521
00:45:08.135 --> 00:45:13.995
And the t was the last one? No. Wasn't the last one, like, the treasure safe three or something? Right. It was the

522
00:45:14.310 --> 00:45:17.210
the safe was the t with a secure element. Right?

523
00:45:17.670 --> 00:45:20.410
No. No. I think it went t then one,

524
00:45:21.350 --> 00:45:28.330
then three out of the secure element. One is the original. It's the one the one without secure element, still the one that they sell on Amazon.

525
00:45:28.875 --> 00:45:30.975
The very original one was the two.

526
00:45:31.915 --> 00:45:33.295
Yeah. It's hard to know.

527
00:45:34.955 --> 00:45:37.935
If you go to trezor.com, it's like an actual safe company.

528
00:45:38.635 --> 00:45:40.395
Trezor.io.

529
00:45:40.475 --> 00:45:40.975
Bitcoin.

530
00:45:42.060 --> 00:45:43.680
Anyway, we got we got derailed.

531
00:45:44.300 --> 00:45:49.600
Yes. The the point is Let me just double check just so that we got that right.

532
00:45:50.220 --> 00:45:51.440
You got the

533
00:45:52.460 --> 00:45:55.440
they have the treasure three, the five, and the seven now.

534
00:45:55.865 --> 00:45:58.845
Wow. I haven't kept up with their products. It's still on Amazon.

535
00:45:59.305 --> 00:46:01.484
If you go Trezor on Amazon. Products

536
00:46:01.865 --> 00:46:03.224
they're trezor.io,

537
00:46:03.224 --> 00:46:05.164
by the way. They're not trezor.com.

538
00:46:05.625 --> 00:46:12.980
They have the three yeah. The model t oh, the model t was the second one. The model one was the one. There you go. Okay. It's so the Trezor

539
00:46:13.319 --> 00:46:13.819
one,

540
00:46:14.160 --> 00:46:16.180
model one They sell for $50.

541
00:46:16.240 --> 00:46:18.880
Yeah. It's 2 and a half. Is $1.29.

542
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:21.300
That device three is 79.

543
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:24.340
The five is $1.69.

544
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:26.565
So $13, you can take the seeds out.

545
00:46:27.365 --> 00:46:30.825
Yeah. This this then the seven is $2.49.

546
00:46:32.085 --> 00:46:35.785
And I guess they added a secure element with the five, I think.

547
00:46:37.125 --> 00:46:37.785
And then

548
00:46:38.405 --> 00:46:39.545
and the touch screen.

549
00:46:42.830 --> 00:46:47.330
And then the seven has the double secure element, including their open source secure element.

550
00:46:47.790 --> 00:46:48.190
Anyway

551
00:46:50.670 --> 00:46:53.970
and to back to the cold cards. So you have the two secure elements,

552
00:46:54.605 --> 00:46:55.505
and you have,

553
00:46:57.085 --> 00:46:57.904
the MCU,

554
00:46:58.605 --> 00:47:01.184
and you need to compromise all three to pull the seed

555
00:47:01.484 --> 00:47:02.865
if you don't have the PIN.

556
00:47:03.244 --> 00:47:07.664
If you if you enter the wrong PIN 13 times, the whole thing breaks itself.

557
00:47:08.300 --> 00:47:08.800
Yes.

558
00:47:10.140 --> 00:47:12.400
Is there there's no way to to

559
00:47:13.580 --> 00:47:15.040
to reset that PIN timer

560
00:47:16.220 --> 00:47:17.920
without breaking all three chips?

561
00:47:18.380 --> 00:47:18.880
Correct.

562
00:47:20.235 --> 00:47:28.655
No. No. Sorry. Yeah. The PIN timer, there is there is no way it's protected by the same sort of security. Like, I unplugged the I unplugged the cold card. I plug it back in.

563
00:47:29.115 --> 00:47:45.750
I only have five tries left if I've already done eight times. Yes. It's 13 Unless I compromise all three chips. Yeah. 13 times or a break. Period. So but it's not just one chip is doing that pin timer? Is there is there a way you can compromise timer. You you mean, like, the counter? 13 wrong tries.

564
00:47:46.125 --> 00:47:46.711
Yeah. That's

565
00:47:47.645 --> 00:47:50.465
one chip, can I get, like, infinite tries of the pen?

566
00:47:52.605 --> 00:47:54.305
Yes. But not quite.

567
00:47:55.805 --> 00:47:56.305
Okay.

568
00:47:58.539 --> 00:48:01.279
It's like elaborate, or are you being intensely KG?

569
00:48:01.900 --> 00:48:05.200
Yeah. It gets, it gets, it gets tricky there.

570
00:48:07.019 --> 00:48:09.039
Got it. There are some defenses, but,

571
00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:14.445
you know, you are somewhat at the mercy of the but it's still, like, you still have

572
00:48:16.185 --> 00:48:17.005
there's still

573
00:48:17.625 --> 00:48:18.845
Is that the weak point?

574
00:48:19.785 --> 00:48:30.630
No. That's a I mean someone can get infinite pin tries like a No. A strong a strong malicious actor could get a The the thing is there's still a hard limit on how many,

575
00:48:31.569 --> 00:48:32.470
tries per

576
00:48:33.890 --> 00:48:37.750
per second you can do kind of thing. So it's still gonna take a very long time.

577
00:48:38.085 --> 00:48:38.585
Even

578
00:48:39.045 --> 00:48:40.265
if you could do that. And

579
00:48:40.645 --> 00:48:41.464
thus far,

580
00:48:42.484 --> 00:48:43.705
in in none

581
00:48:44.484 --> 00:48:48.585
of the versions of the secure element, they were able to bring the PIN counter.

582
00:48:50.900 --> 00:48:57.800
Because that's, like, key to the physical security model. Right? Is that Yes. Even like, if you even if you have, like, a weakish PIN

583
00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:01.800
Yes. Like, no one's gonna be able to guess that thing in 13 tries.

584
00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:02.745
No.

585
00:49:03.785 --> 00:49:04.765
Not gonna happen.

586
00:49:06.505 --> 00:49:08.925
You know, like, and and when you think about it, like, the

587
00:49:09.945 --> 00:49:10.445
the

588
00:49:11.465 --> 00:49:18.605
it's a big honeypot out there of devices. And remember, like, these these chips are used by major companies too. Right?

589
00:49:20.720 --> 00:49:25.540
But, like, not for a cold card? Like Yeah. I mean, like, we're we're officially competing with auto manufacturers,

590
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:27.940
competing with everybody else for the same chips.

591
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:32.055
There is, like, millions and millions and millions of these chips out there.

592
00:49:33.974 --> 00:49:35.355
They're they're very hardened.

593
00:49:36.135 --> 00:49:38.795
But, you know, again, they'll have limits. Everything has limits.

594
00:49:41.015 --> 00:49:41.515
Okay.

595
00:49:44.230 --> 00:49:46.250
You said you wanted to talk about seeds later.

596
00:49:47.590 --> 00:49:51.750
Well, I and then now it's later. What do you what are your is do you not,

597
00:49:53.190 --> 00:49:56.810
so first, I'll start off with I love seeds. I think seeds are awesome.

598
00:49:59.455 --> 00:50:01.315
What are your thoughts on,

599
00:50:05.535 --> 00:50:11.474
like like, seeds? Like, what do you how do you think about seeds in terms of user friendliness? Because I I think

600
00:50:12.150 --> 00:50:14.089
if you were pre seed in Bitcoin,

601
00:50:15.349 --> 00:50:18.490
like, I was around in Bitcoin before seeds existed,

602
00:50:19.910 --> 00:50:26.809
and seeds are fucking magic. Like, it's an amazing innovation. But I think there's a whole slew of Bitcoiners now, like, a new set of Bitcoiners

603
00:50:27.455 --> 00:50:33.955
that think of seeds as a problem that needs to be solved, that it's a a hard it's it's hard for the average person to

604
00:50:34.495 --> 00:50:37.795
wrap their head around protecting 12 or 24 words.

605
00:50:39.535 --> 00:50:41.955
Yeah. Well, so so this is the thing. Right? Like,

606
00:50:42.810 --> 00:50:46.270
what are you giving up when you don't have seeds is the real question.

607
00:50:47.130 --> 00:50:49.950
Right? Like, seeds are through sovereignty. Right? Like,

608
00:50:50.410 --> 00:50:51.070
it is

609
00:50:51.370 --> 00:50:52.830
it is vendor independent.

610
00:50:53.850 --> 00:51:05.025
So if you if if there's anything you don't like about your cold card or your Trezor or your Ledger, you take your seed and you load it in a different device without their help, and you get the money out.

611
00:51:05.484 --> 00:51:14.130
Just like take the c you take the cold card seed, just load it into Trezor. Boom. Done. It's just like Nostr. Right? Like, it's the same idea. You don't like this vendor. You don't like this client.

612
00:51:14.910 --> 00:51:15.570
You just

613
00:51:15.870 --> 00:51:19.810
take the secret out, copy paste the secret, put in some other place,

614
00:51:20.190 --> 00:51:23.170
and then boom, all your stuff is there. You don't need permission.

615
00:51:23.484 --> 00:51:25.665
Right? It's it's unilateral exit.

616
00:51:27.565 --> 00:51:28.385
No counterparty.

617
00:51:29.405 --> 00:51:39.210
Yeah. That's super cool. I mean, that's, like, a number one question I hear all the time. It's like, oh, what what if cold card goes out of business? And, like, it's even bigger than that. Like, you can just take it and you can just put that seed into Sparrow.

618
00:51:39.589 --> 00:51:40.410
Let's say

619
00:51:40.789 --> 00:51:43.130
let's say it's like the apocalypse or something.

620
00:51:43.430 --> 00:51:44.650
Mhmm. Just hypothetically

621
00:51:45.029 --> 00:51:47.690
that the apocalypse happens and you can't get any hardware,

622
00:51:48.069 --> 00:51:52.329
but you can still get open source software and put it on a general purpose computer.

623
00:51:53.295 --> 00:51:57.075
You can just load that seed right into Sparo and all your funds will be there. Yes.

624
00:51:57.455 --> 00:52:02.835
Or code or whatever. No. I mean, like, we're just stupid shit. Like, for example, let's say this UK

625
00:52:03.214 --> 00:52:05.395
ID shit for websites

626
00:52:05.775 --> 00:52:06.915
catches on. Right?

627
00:52:07.390 --> 00:52:08.850
Let's say now all

628
00:52:09.630 --> 00:52:10.130
fucking

629
00:52:10.510 --> 00:52:19.545
western countries decide that, like, in order for you to buy something on Amazon or to to download a piece of software on the web, on the clear web, right,

630
00:52:20.345 --> 00:52:24.684
You you need to show some fucking ID. Like, these things are not, like, no longer,

631
00:52:26.505 --> 00:52:32.365
like, theoretical. Right? I mean, we live through COVID. We know how far things can go, and they can go a lot worse. Right?

632
00:52:32.744 --> 00:52:33.244
So

633
00:52:33.560 --> 00:52:35.900
the infrastructure is there to control us. So

634
00:52:37.160 --> 00:52:39.580
let's say you cannot like, let's say a vendor

635
00:52:40.040 --> 00:52:40.540
goes

636
00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:55.345
like, the Apple says, no. You cannot have your app on the store anymore. Boom. App out. Right? And then let's say you depended on their servers. Oh, no. You can't serve this this this customer's here, and, you know, VPN doesn't work because they don't wanna go to jail as a company executive.

637
00:52:55.885 --> 00:53:01.080
You know? Boom. Like, now you don't have access to the parts that are on an app or on a server.

638
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:03.900
Right? It it's a huge problem.

639
00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:07.660
And then, you know, oh, but they, you know, they have, like, some app

640
00:53:08.040 --> 00:53:12.860
on, you know, on the on GitHub. You know? Oh, did they have to take everything out of the country?

641
00:53:13.175 --> 00:53:15.575
Well, let's use specific examples because I I I'm

642
00:53:16.375 --> 00:53:24.635
like, I think this is where once again, I love seeds, but I think this is where we disagree on a lot of things. So let's use Phoenix Wallet as my first example.

643
00:53:25.470 --> 00:53:29.170
Phoenix Wallet lets you take a seed. Right? You can

644
00:53:29.869 --> 00:53:30.530
you can

645
00:53:30.910 --> 00:53:33.490
write down a seed and and keep a seed back up.

646
00:53:34.190 --> 00:53:39.250
They give the users that option, but they also give users the option for an iCloud backup.

647
00:53:39.645 --> 00:53:45.425
Yeah. How is it? I I love the iCloud backup for onboarding people. Full life savings there?

648
00:53:45.725 --> 00:53:56.630
Well, I think for some people, yes. I I think I I don't. Really? Would you would you tell your friend to put, like let's say, like, let's say in percentages. Right? Let's say your friend, so he's 99%

649
00:53:56.770 --> 00:54:06.869
balls deep into Bitcoin. Right? Yeah. And and you're gonna say to him, you know what? Just put it on just put it on Phoenix and and save it on iCloud. Are you gonna tell him to do that?

650
00:54:07.345 --> 00:54:08.005
I think

651
00:54:08.785 --> 00:54:20.245
I'm gonna Yes or no, Matt. Yes or no, Matt. No. I I so, like, I think there's there's there's a lot of I've seen so I have I have been in the room where people have put

652
00:54:20.990 --> 00:54:24.530
their entire life savings on Phoenix iCloud backups.

653
00:54:25.550 --> 00:54:27.970
And the argument, I think, is

654
00:54:28.510 --> 00:54:38.955
that they're more likely you're you're they're so they're first of all, they're agreeing that the NSA and Apple, like, are not in their threat model. Right? Like, the US government and Apple are not in their threat model.

655
00:54:39.495 --> 00:54:41.895
The biggest threat to their funds is them

656
00:54:42.535 --> 00:54:54.750
You know, if you lose your phone losing it. Wait. Wait. Do you know, right, that if you lose your phone number, okay, which can happen just by accident, you get locked out. You get locked out of Apple, iCloud forever. There's no way around it,

657
00:54:55.930 --> 00:54:57.630
period. Like, there are celebrities

658
00:54:58.090 --> 00:55:03.710
that couldn't get back to their fucking iCloud accounts. Well, I mean, I think I think what you would do like, the ideal situation

659
00:55:04.170 --> 00:55:09.755
for that because they should buy the ETF. If you no. Seriously. No. No. No. I don't think so because If you cannot,

660
00:55:10.455 --> 00:55:11.995
okay, if you cannot

661
00:55:12.535 --> 00:55:16.315
put your fucking life savings on a real fucking Bitcoin solution,

662
00:55:16.855 --> 00:55:20.875
alright, like, you should not put your life savings into Bitcoin.

663
00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:29.080
Like, the ETF, I think, is strictly worse than that. I mean, then you're trusting Charles Schwab, then also the US government is in your third model. You can't you can't, like, sue cryptography.

664
00:55:29.700 --> 00:55:33.645
I think If you lose your fucking city, you're gone. If you lose no. No. I think,

665
00:55:34.765 --> 00:55:37.025
with Phoenix, like, so you could

666
00:55:37.485 --> 00:55:39.105
you could do both.

667
00:55:39.405 --> 00:55:49.740
Yeah. I'm not talking. Sure. If you're sure. If you lose your seed if you lose your seed, then you have the iCloud backup. Sure. And I think put your cold card back encrypted backup on iCloud.

668
00:55:50.520 --> 00:55:59.819
But the problem the the problem is the what what you see happen a lot is the user is confronted with the backup process in the beginning.

669
00:56:00.365 --> 00:56:04.305
Yes. They don't store their seed correctly, then it grows in value.

670
00:56:05.165 --> 00:56:05.984
And then

671
00:56:06.924 --> 00:56:12.060
they they lose their device or their phone or whatever, and then they don't have a good backup because it grows over time,

672
00:56:12.460 --> 00:56:27.680
especially with Bitcoin. Right? Like, maybe it only becomes their life savings because of 10 x's, because of 20 x's. Like, they didn't put in their life savings into Bitcoin. It just became their life savings because of But that's why, like, people should always be learning. Right? Like, ideally,

673
00:56:28.355 --> 00:56:37.335
if you went from, like, if you went from, like, if you went from, like, zero to 100, right, like, x on your hold, like, you should have spent that time learning

674
00:56:37.714 --> 00:56:55.700
how to Yeah. But most people, like, they most people don't practice personal responsibility. They're gonna be playing that. I talk about this as, like, a high level theoretical all the time, which is I think if people care about Bitcoin as freedom money, it's important to set our expectations properly. It's not gonna it it is very unlikely

675
00:56:56.160 --> 00:57:02.625
there's gonna be more than 5% of the population are using Bitcoin as freedom money. And and and percent of the population are using,

676
00:57:03.085 --> 00:57:07.885
like, you know, like, a a Pubco custodial solution or on Coinbase or whatever. What's

677
00:57:08.925 --> 00:57:15.585
But I'm saying, like, if we could get a higher if we could get a higher percentage of them when they load up the wallet to do the iCloud backup,

678
00:57:16.020 --> 00:57:19.240
And then, hopefully, they take a seed backup later. But if they don't,

679
00:57:20.100 --> 00:57:36.065
then at least they're protected on the iCloud side. Like, at least they have that iCloud backup. Like, that's a huge win on the Phoenix website. But this is what I hate the part of this conversation or this narrative is that, like, you can start to something stupid simple, but, like, you shouldn't stop learning.

680
00:57:37.404 --> 00:57:38.384
Okay. So let's

681
00:57:38.765 --> 00:57:46.545
I look. I a 100% agree with you shouldn't stop learning. That's the whole ethos of everything I've built in the space, including still dispatch.

682
00:57:46.950 --> 00:57:55.450
But dispatch has, like, 1% of the viewers of, like Oh, I know. That's why I love coming here. Of the podcasts that are like, stop learning.

683
00:57:55.830 --> 00:57:59.775
You're you know, you don't take any personal responsibility. Like, that's what people want.

684
00:58:00.654 --> 00:58:02.755
And I think there's place in the market

685
00:58:03.135 --> 00:58:09.875
for different options, and I I don't think it's either I don't think it's either you trust BlackRock and Charles Schwab wholeheartedly

686
00:58:10.654 --> 00:58:16.900
or you take full sovereignty over your life. So I think there's a middle ground. Okay. Let's just put it to it this way.

687
00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:20.259
If if you're gonna put your whole life savings on Phoenix

688
00:58:20.640 --> 00:58:21.779
and you're not gonna,

689
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:23.940
like, learn how to

690
00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:36.235
take access to your seed and back it up, okay, you should stay with ETFs. You should not stay with that. You shouldn't stay on I disagree with that. ICloud only forever.

691
00:58:36.695 --> 00:58:41.195
I disagree with that. I would I would rather have $50,000

692
00:58:41.255 --> 00:59:00.300
on Phoenix iCloud backup than in Is that your life savings, I bet? Is that your life savings, Matt? It's a little bit above my life savings. It's it's a dream number that hopefully I'll hit one day. No. But what I'm trying to say is, like, the this is the thing. Right? Like, it's, like, you know, if you were a wealthy person, okay, that has your life savings in, like, you know, a proper

693
00:59:00.835 --> 00:59:03.335
setup and you wanna keep $10,000,000

694
00:59:03.395 --> 00:59:05.235
on Phoenix because $10,000,000

695
00:59:05.235 --> 00:59:07.655
is you're spending money for your weekend in Ibiza.

696
00:59:07.955 --> 00:59:08.615
You know?

697
00:59:08.915 --> 00:59:19.640
Fine. I mean, like, it's no issues with that. You're gonna spend that money that weekend anyways. It's not a, like, it's not a how much. It's like what percentage that is from your your your, you know, wealth.

698
00:59:21.140 --> 00:59:22.360
Okay. So

699
00:59:23.300 --> 00:59:26.100
we use Phoenix as an example first. It's perfect.

700
00:59:26.660 --> 00:59:28.920
I wanna do another I wanna do another

701
00:59:29.655 --> 00:59:31.915
real example, which you've been very outspoken

702
00:59:32.215 --> 00:59:33.595
about, which is Bitkey.

703
00:59:35.255 --> 00:59:36.715
And I think Bitkey

704
00:59:37.495 --> 00:59:41.495
is a is a different setup than Phoenix. Right? So Phoenix is

705
00:59:42.300 --> 00:59:46.940
you got the whole LSP relationship going on. Funds are held on lightning at rest.

706
00:59:48.940 --> 00:59:51.520
It's single sig. Well, it's I guess it's technically

707
00:59:51.900 --> 00:59:53.040
two of two multisig.

708
00:59:55.695 --> 01:00:04.195
But you would with Bitkey with Bitkey, it's this idea of this it's by Square, it's by Block. It's this collaborative custody model, two of three multisig.

709
01:00:05.535 --> 01:00:06.595
No seed phrases.

710
01:00:08.980 --> 01:00:10.760
Why do you hate Viki so much?

711
01:00:11.220 --> 01:00:15.400
Okay. So I love Viki. I mean, I loved the in the past, Viki.

712
01:00:16.019 --> 01:00:17.400
I got rugged on implementation.

713
01:00:19.299 --> 01:00:30.255
So, like, by the way, I'm one of the first cheerleaders for Bitkey since the beginning of Bitkey. Just generic people. I remain a cheerleader for Bitkey Yeah. In Virginia. So here's the problem that I have.

714
01:00:30.875 --> 01:00:31.375
Okay.

715
01:00:31.915 --> 01:00:32.415
Pubco,

716
01:00:32.720 --> 01:00:36.740
right, like, public company. Okay? Yes. It is extra compliant.

717
01:00:37.200 --> 01:00:42.740
Right? Like, it it that this is the reason why Twitter, you know, removed everything everybody during,

718
01:00:43.680 --> 01:00:47.380
COVID. The the real life example is you can't buy Bitkey in New York.

719
01:00:47.815 --> 01:00:50.795
Right. Exactly. Right? So because of the bit license.

720
01:00:51.095 --> 01:00:52.875
So when you create a preparatory

721
01:00:53.415 --> 01:00:53.915
setup,

722
01:00:54.295 --> 01:00:56.075
okay, that depends on their servers,

723
01:00:56.455 --> 01:00:57.835
their app being live,

724
01:00:58.775 --> 01:01:03.410
their hardware that is not really open. You can't put a firmware on it. Okay?

725
01:01:03.950 --> 01:01:08.210
And it has a auto updates. Okay. EU, we're essentially creating a hot wallet.

726
01:01:10.109 --> 01:01:14.849
Okay. EU, we're in practice, a hot wallet. Right? Because they control the full stack remotely.

727
01:01:16.105 --> 01:01:37.540
But I think I think the mistake here is to compare it to something like cold card. It shouldn't be compared to something like cold card. It shouldn't be compared to something like cold card. Thing. Right? Like, cold card. It's trying to accomplish it's trying to accomplish different things. No. No. One second. But but hang on. This is important. This is important. Okay? So if you're gonna create that setup, that's fine. Okay? That's completely fine, and I was, like, super for it. As long as the marketing is honest.

728
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:41.540
Right? Like, you go and you say, hey. Listen. This is your stepping stone.

729
01:01:42.125 --> 01:01:44.865
Okay. This is how you start safely with Bitcoin.

730
01:01:45.244 --> 01:01:46.545
Okay. You should

731
01:01:47.005 --> 01:01:47.984
move your funds

732
01:01:48.525 --> 01:01:52.145
out of here when this becomes your life savings into other solutions.

733
01:01:52.605 --> 01:01:53.905
Okay. You should learn.

734
01:01:54.365 --> 01:01:54.865
And

735
01:01:55.250 --> 01:01:56.790
you know what? Seeds are great.

736
01:01:57.170 --> 01:01:59.109
Okay. Now when you come out

737
01:01:59.410 --> 01:02:05.589
of the fucking womb, okay, saying that, like, the thing that is truly safe for people and is truly

738
01:02:06.130 --> 01:02:06.630
sovereign

739
01:02:07.170 --> 01:02:08.630
is shit. Like, literally

740
01:02:09.170 --> 01:02:10.150
fudding seeds.

741
01:02:10.725 --> 01:02:12.745
And you don't even create

742
01:02:13.125 --> 01:02:15.465
a out of pubco solution

743
01:02:15.845 --> 01:02:20.665
to break the glass because they couldn't break the glass to joke. They didn't create the sparrow thing that they promised.

744
01:02:21.365 --> 01:02:36.370
Okay? Well, it's still early. They might. No. But but see, but this is the thing. Right? Like, it would it's like trust me, bro. Like, you know, it's just classic fucking, like, this is classic fucking pub co trust me, bro shit. Okay? Like, it pisses me off because, like,

745
01:02:37.085 --> 01:02:38.944
you don't get spite of everybody.

746
01:02:39.805 --> 01:02:41.505
That's unfair. That's unfair.

747
01:02:42.285 --> 01:02:42.944
I think,

748
01:02:45.805 --> 01:02:49.424
lot out of any public company, they've pushed the limit the most.

749
01:02:49.990 --> 01:02:57.050
I don't think this is, like, classic trust me, bro stuff, like, compared to something like what Apple puts out, for instance, if you wanna use Apple as an example.

750
01:02:58.550 --> 01:03:06.165
You can so what I was saying earlier is, like trust me, bro. They never made a claim otherwise. No. No. But so what I was what I

751
01:03:06.785 --> 01:03:07.925
what I was saying

752
01:03:08.464 --> 01:03:11.445
is I don't think people should be like, I

753
01:03:11.984 --> 01:03:15.685
I like Bitkey for new users that are not technical,

754
01:03:16.790 --> 01:03:21.530
that get overwhelmed very easily, that their alternative is probably gonna choose some kind of custodial solution.

755
01:03:21.910 --> 01:03:26.090
I don't think it's competing with the cold card. I don't think it's truly cold storage.

756
01:03:26.630 --> 01:03:47.200
I don't think Bitkey is cold storage. I think it's some kind of, like, warm, collaborative custody. When people say that, like, we're doing this out of venture competitiveness. It's not No. No. But Because you know what? I send people to the user. That. I'm not accusing you of I mean, what what the reason you're doing it is because you have very strong opinions and you have a lot of time on your hands, and so you're always constantly letting everybody know your opinions.

757
01:03:48.540 --> 01:03:53.920
Not and and that's why we're friends. Like, I I love that about you, but also, like,

758
01:03:55.020 --> 01:03:59.440
that's where we butt heads the most is is I also have very strong opinions,

759
01:04:00.275 --> 01:04:02.455
and they're they're not always aligned with yours,

760
01:04:02.835 --> 01:04:06.535
which is fine. You can have different opinions with people and still be friends with them.

761
01:04:07.155 --> 01:04:13.415
It's like something that society has completely lost. But my point is is the cold card is protecting you from

762
01:04:13.715 --> 01:04:21.619
external actors. Right? Cold cards are trying to And us. Good point, guys. Cold cards are trying you're trying to hold Bitcoin without any trust involved.

763
01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:28.740
You're taking full sovereign radical personal responsibility. You're trying to protect yourself from government. You're trying to protect yourself from corporations.

764
01:04:29.155 --> 01:04:32.295
All the all the different malicious actors, everything. Yes.

765
01:04:33.315 --> 01:04:34.855
The main purpose of the Bitkey

766
01:04:35.395 --> 01:04:37.335
is to protect people from themselves.

767
01:04:38.275 --> 01:04:49.900
That is what the purpose of the Bitkey is. That's that's cool. And they do a really good job with it. Like, it is really hard it is really hard to fuck it up. They're buying a Bitcoin customers. Do you agree with me that with with

768
01:04:50.280 --> 01:05:11.735
something like a cold card, there are there are many ways that people can fuck up their own savings? They can that that we've seen Absolutely. The majority of time people lose Bitcoin is not is not robbery, is not theft. We don't have numbers on that. There's a lot of, like, fud on that. The majority of time people lose Bitcoin is because they fucked something up, is is is user error. Efficacy to that. Yeah. Absolutely.

769
01:05:12.309 --> 01:05:15.109
And big key like, you have to be really

770
01:05:15.589 --> 01:05:26.010
you have to work really hard to lose your Bitcoin if you use Bitcoin. Well, but specifically on the inheritance side specifically on the inheritance side, they make the inheritance side really, really easy in a relatively cheap package,

771
01:05:26.835 --> 01:05:27.974
very user friendly.

772
01:05:28.355 --> 01:05:36.055
Like, I've I've I'm glad that they're trying something new. We've never seen anything like that before on self custody side. Have you heard of anybody who lost ETF Bitcoin?

773
01:05:37.875 --> 01:05:46.410
I mean, you don't own Bitcoin if you don't need to. No. No. But, like You own an I. But it's like, no. But but, like, you're close. You're close to that in a setup where you don't have

774
01:05:46.790 --> 01:05:55.450
a unilateral access. That's the only thing I ask. It's like, just make sure the users, like, hide it somewhere, make it so you have to fucking call somebody or whatever.

775
01:05:55.865 --> 01:05:58.204
Look. When we first got into this fight access.

776
01:05:58.984 --> 01:06:00.845
Look. I when we privately,

777
01:06:01.704 --> 01:06:06.444
for better or for worse, we talk on almost a daily basis. Yes. People don't know that part.

778
01:06:06.825 --> 01:06:07.785
And I

779
01:06:08.505 --> 01:06:09.724
for better or for worse.

780
01:06:10.105 --> 01:06:10.345
And,

781
01:06:11.910 --> 01:06:17.770
I've actually tested the brake glass mode. Like, it's pretty straightforward. You you you take an APK.

782
01:06:18.309 --> 01:06:30.375
You take an APK, and you just you literally just scan a QR code. You scan a QR code, tap your device, and you're you're out. You're out of out of testing their servers without trusting their apps. America. Hang on a second. Outside of North America,

783
01:06:30.675 --> 01:06:40.050
people might not be able to get an Android phone. Okay? No. Outside of North America, everyone has Android phones. That's all they have. No. No. No. They might not be able to get an Android phone so they can run the APK.

784
01:06:40.910 --> 01:06:46.290
Why wouldn't they be able you can just run an APK on any Android phone. Minimum version is not. It's not that simple. Okay?

785
01:06:46.670 --> 01:06:47.730
Second thing is,

786
01:06:48.030 --> 01:06:56.035
like, they can push an update where that APK breaks to the hardware device. And let's assume you have the hardware. If you lose the hardware

787
01:06:57.135 --> 01:07:07.710
Yeah. That's the worst part. Is losing the hardware. If you lose the hardware, okay, which is the majority of the people who fuck up shit are gonna probably do that part first. They're gonna just, you know, drop it in the pool or fucking, like, lose it on moving

788
01:07:08.010 --> 01:07:08.510
houses.

789
01:07:09.930 --> 01:07:18.110
Okay? They will now depend on block for recovery. There is no auto wait. No. What they do is they what they do is they send you a new piece of hardware,

790
01:07:18.570 --> 01:07:19.630
and then you reinitialize

791
01:07:19.930 --> 01:07:22.915
it with, collaborative testing using the app. Right?

792
01:07:23.295 --> 01:07:27.055
The the the problem is, like, that's all Yeah. But in that situation in that situation

793
01:07:27.455 --> 01:07:28.915
but you realize that

794
01:07:29.455 --> 01:07:31.875
that theoretical that theoretical is

795
01:07:32.255 --> 01:07:36.435
both block doesn't want you to spend your money and you lose your device at the same time,

796
01:07:37.170 --> 01:07:44.230
which I think is an edge case for the overwhelming majority of people in their threat model. For today, yes. I mean, you know, like, again,

797
01:07:44.609 --> 01:07:45.109
like,

798
01:07:45.570 --> 01:07:48.390
we've been through a world events recently

799
01:07:49.215 --> 01:07:52.835
where, you know, like, everything you thought wouldn't happen, happened.

800
01:07:54.975 --> 01:08:08.600
Okay. I mean, that's true. With COVID. Like like, seriously. The response to COVID, specifically. It's absolutely insane. Like, you would think that you're not allowed to leave your country. Oh, you're not allowed to leave your country. Oh, now you're not allowed to leave your country and also block is not allowed to here.

801
01:08:09.220 --> 01:08:10.260
If not even the ATF

802
01:08:10.740 --> 01:08:11.800
suck in that situation.

803
01:08:12.180 --> 01:08:27.295
Sure. But at least you have, like, the law and some other way of getting it. You have the law in this situation too. Like, I don't I think you do. Argument this argument that you should just hold the ETF instead, I, like, I wholeheartedly disagree. That's what I think. We don't have so by the way, on the devices thing,

804
01:08:27.675 --> 01:08:39.239
I love their I think their team is fucking great. I think that I love everybody there. They're shipping real real quick. But, like, I was talking to Thomas and Max, and, like, one thing I think that would just solve this

805
01:08:40.200 --> 01:08:49.844
well, would would help mitigate that specific concern of losing the hardware is a very easy solution for them, which is I should be able to, like, initialize multiple hardware

806
01:08:50.225 --> 01:08:57.045
on on one on one wallet. So I have a backup of that hardware. If I lose that hardware, if something happens, it falls in the toilet or something,

807
01:08:57.745 --> 01:09:08.300
I'm able to just use my backup version of that hardware instead of getting in another machine. Easy it is? I think that's relatively simple. Do you know how easy it is to kill an electric electronic device?

808
01:09:08.840 --> 01:09:17.740
Dude, like, your kid runs that shit to close the microwave. Well, that's what I'm saying. You should be able to pair multiple what? You're no. You can't depend on fucking digital devices.

809
01:09:18.415 --> 01:09:23.074
You can't the cold card. First of all, do we agree that that would do we agree that that would be an improvement?

810
01:09:24.495 --> 01:09:24.995
Yes.

811
01:09:25.695 --> 01:09:26.755
Nice. Okay.

812
01:09:27.534 --> 01:09:33.155
But that is not, like, again, if you're using this as a stepping stone, okay, it's fine.

813
01:09:33.530 --> 01:09:35.150
Okay? This is a great conversation.

814
01:09:35.450 --> 01:09:41.530
You don't fucking come out of the closet and say that seeds are shit. When 99%

815
01:09:41.530 --> 01:09:45.390
of the market for marketing. The seedless is safe for marketing. And then they

816
01:09:45.770 --> 01:09:49.775
double down on that, dude. Like, what the fuck? You know, you sound like bad actors.

817
01:09:50.395 --> 01:09:57.295
Yeah. But they're not bad actors. But anyway, I I I see where you're coming from with that. Now so first of all, that. And then second of all,

818
01:09:58.715 --> 01:10:15.449
my other big complaint is that there's no screen on it to verify things. I would not be surprised if they were using it. Right? Bitkey, they probably work on it. They probably work on it. A screen. And But do you know why? You can Right? Because Bitkey, the original idea and concept that I was sold to, I still have, like, a very old

819
01:10:15.750 --> 01:10:16.969
prototype of this thing,

820
01:10:17.635 --> 01:10:22.535
was that it was going to be a spending wallet for people to learn. And it makes complete sense

821
01:10:23.395 --> 01:10:26.215
that the the little rock that you hold it as backup

822
01:10:26.915 --> 01:10:29.655
doesn't have a screen because it was not designed to be

823
01:10:30.780 --> 01:10:36.159
a, like, your wealth holding system. You should not have your whole wealth depending on a Pubco.

824
01:10:36.699 --> 01:10:39.679
Would you agree with that? You're not you're not depending on the Pubco.

825
01:10:39.980 --> 01:10:40.880
Well, you are.

826
01:10:41.900 --> 01:10:44.000
They they control the whole stack.

827
01:10:44.435 --> 01:10:48.375
No. No. You're you're you're depending on them not being actively malicious.

828
01:10:49.955 --> 01:11:04.590
That could be. Dude, like, it happens tomorrow. They could go out of business. If they went if if they went out of business tomorrow No. No. No. Not really out of business. They might just, like, cancel the project, or they might be forced to cancel the project. But if they cancel the project, you'd be good tomorrow.

829
01:11:06.170 --> 01:11:11.230
Maybe. Maybe you didn't look at it. No. Wait. Wait. Wait a second. Okay. You you forget

830
01:11:11.690 --> 01:11:18.045
that, you know, you had, you know, like, 5 Bitcoin in it. Right? Yeah. That happened to a lot of people back back in the day.

831
01:11:18.665 --> 01:11:24.125
And then, you know, five years pass, ten years pass. Yeah. That's true. You're fucked. It's gone.

832
01:11:24.425 --> 01:11:32.360
Well, you have to hope that someone still has the APK. No. It's gone. It's gone. Like, no. Because you're not gonna be able to run that shit on any modern new hardware.

833
01:11:32.900 --> 01:11:33.560
It's gone.

834
01:11:33.860 --> 01:11:56.535
See, like, this is what I'm saying. It it is reckless. No. Good. Well, I have a copy of the APK. Yeah. Okay. Listen. It doesn't matter if the APK is not gonna run on the APK. It's not gonna run on new devices. I have an old Android phone. I'll keep I'll keep an old Android phone just in case the people I onboard are big. Gonna blow up. Anyways, the point is this. Okay? I just It's like I am super bullish on that project

835
01:11:57.090 --> 01:12:07.030
if they had honest marketing on them where they're saying, hey. Listen. You know, this thing is an amazing stepping stone. Okay? There is a lot of counterparty risk,

836
01:12:07.570 --> 01:12:12.390
but you know what? You're not gonna screw yourself. Fantastic. That was what I was sold on.

837
01:12:13.255 --> 01:12:18.582
Okay. After that It's really hard to screw yourself. Yes. It is. It is. It is. It is. It is. It is.

838
01:12:18.908 --> 01:12:19.408
It

839
01:12:19.735 --> 01:12:22.395
is very good. Like, really, really, really good.

840
01:12:22.695 --> 01:12:24.955
So, like, let me do so so

841
01:12:25.710 --> 01:12:37.890
let me do a, an example here about two users. And user one is using a ledger, not a cold card, because ledger sells way more devices than cold card, like, the number one device by far.

842
01:12:38.510 --> 01:12:40.210
User two uses a bit key.

843
01:12:41.175 --> 01:12:43.675
User one is using his ledger sets up his ledger.

844
01:12:44.215 --> 01:12:51.514
First thing he does when he sets up his ledger is he writes down his seed phrase. Has basically no funds on the device yet. Right? Just getting started.

845
01:12:52.135 --> 01:13:04.240
Now ledger does not let you view your seed phrase after the fact. It's impossible to view your seed phrase after you said that. They removed that? No. It is impossible. You cannot view it. So they've written down their seed words on a piece of paper.

846
01:13:04.700 --> 01:13:10.640
They have horrible handwriting. They kind of rush through it because they have no money in it yet. Then they use it for the next five years.

847
01:13:12.555 --> 01:13:13.295
And then

848
01:13:14.155 --> 01:13:29.840
they, you know, they thought they can memorize a pin. They they put it in the wrong the first time. They have two more tries. They put it wrong a second time because they're like, oh, I just typed it wrong. They have one more try. If they if they miss that third try, they've lost their money. Their seed was written down incorrectly,

849
01:13:30.540 --> 01:13:42.934
and they've just completely lost their life savings five years, six years, seven years later. Compare that to the BitKey, they would have been way better off on the Bitkey. Okay. But here's what happens. Objectively better off on the Bitkey. Okay. I get this DM weekly. Okay. Weekly.

850
01:13:43.474 --> 01:13:46.614
Somebody comes to me and say, hey. I used to have a ledger.

851
01:13:47.315 --> 01:13:49.170
Okay. I don't even know where it is.

852
01:13:49.730 --> 01:13:50.230
Yeah.

853
01:13:50.610 --> 01:13:56.870
I have I found the seed on my safe deposit box. I found the seed on my safe. I found the seed on my drawer.

854
01:13:57.330 --> 01:13:58.550
Can you help me recover?

855
01:13:59.170 --> 01:14:12.405
It literally takes two minutes. They walk two fucking If they wrote it down correctly. Pass by. Yeah. But that's like, I have never had one that has it. And I've had multiple that haven't. Well, I mean, you know, we clearly have different kinds of friends. But,

856
01:14:15.665 --> 01:14:20.090
and and this happens all the time. They fucking, like, I tell them, just go walk over to

857
01:14:20.550 --> 01:14:29.530
Best Buy, get the the the the ideally, like, another version of the device just in case because of, like, derivations or whatever fuck they had that back then.

858
01:14:30.230 --> 01:14:32.730
They load the seed in a new hardware wallet,

859
01:14:33.305 --> 01:14:36.285
and boom, they have their Bitcoin and off and their shitcoins too.

860
01:14:37.145 --> 01:14:42.845
Yeah. By the way, the the real I think Ledger handles that horribly, and that's why I'm using them as the example.

861
01:14:44.745 --> 01:14:45.485
But, like,

862
01:14:46.570 --> 01:14:50.750
well, just I've because I've been in this process too. They have the ledger.

863
01:14:51.850 --> 01:14:58.830
It's working. They remember their PIN. They've written down the seed, but they wrote down the seed, like, seven years ago. They don't know if they wrote it down correctly.

864
01:14:59.415 --> 01:15:03.594
The only way they can be sure they wrote it down correctly is to go and buy another ledger

865
01:15:04.454 --> 01:15:13.275
and put the seed into the new ledger. Put Matt, like, honestly check. That's the only way they can double check. That's the only way they can double check. This is a problem of mostly, like, people who've been in the space for too long.

866
01:15:13.950 --> 01:15:15.250
They have often upgraded.

867
01:15:15.790 --> 01:15:16.930
Realistically speaking,

868
01:15:17.550 --> 01:15:25.010
most people that have Bitcoin in hardware wallets in the last, say, five, seven years, they're no longer in that boat. They have much better setups.

869
01:15:26.685 --> 01:15:35.425
No. I don't think that's true. But That's okay. We we don't have to be, but we're just talking about different case scenarios. Like, the issue that I have is this, like, why can't we have,

870
01:15:35.885 --> 01:15:38.225
you know, slightly more honest marketing

871
01:15:38.844 --> 01:15:41.025
and slightly and and, like, not FUD

872
01:15:41.730 --> 01:15:43.430
the setup that most people use.

873
01:15:45.810 --> 01:15:51.590
That's all. I mean, like, there's, like, you can go to cold card website. There is literally no claim there that we can't back.

874
01:15:52.050 --> 01:15:53.350
That is not, like, realistically,

875
01:15:54.945 --> 01:15:57.205
like, honest with most use cases

876
01:15:57.585 --> 01:15:58.485
and most users.

877
01:15:59.824 --> 01:16:03.445
Like, you know, the first thing you read on the big Q website is lose your seed.

878
01:16:09.920 --> 01:16:16.660
Yeah. Look. I think that's I I think the on the marketing side, I think that's fair. I think they got a little bit ahead of themselves on that front.

879
01:16:17.280 --> 01:16:20.820
Alright. More more like doubling down on it, but yes. I

880
01:16:22.815 --> 01:16:24.035
I still think,

881
01:16:25.215 --> 01:16:26.435
I mean, I'm not gonna

882
01:16:27.135 --> 01:16:30.575
but, like, on my on my website, iodel.xyz,

883
01:16:30.575 --> 01:16:31.875
I have a bunch of recommendations,

884
01:16:32.655 --> 01:16:37.260
and I have Bitkey and Coldcard right next to each other. Would you put your life savings

885
01:16:37.640 --> 01:16:39.980
on on Bitkey? Would you put your life savings

886
01:16:40.280 --> 01:16:45.740
on Bitkey? Easy, and it says Coldcard best. Would you put your life savings on Bitkey?

887
01:16:46.280 --> 01:16:49.100
No. Because I I'm technically competent.

888
01:16:50.325 --> 01:16:58.105
So I I trust myself to But, like, if it's so good if it's so good, so No. No. But that's such a bad idea. My

889
01:16:58.565 --> 01:17:05.130
my setup, like, which we're not gonna go into here, but my setup is Let's let's start with the the majority

890
01:17:05.750 --> 01:17:08.809
the majority of people would lose their fucking money with my setup.

891
01:17:09.190 --> 01:17:13.690
Like, empirically. Like, they just would. Like, it's just a it's a paranoid complicated

892
01:17:14.469 --> 01:17:16.010
public individual setup

893
01:17:16.615 --> 01:17:21.035
because I've I've dedicated my life to Bitcoin and I'm incredibly technically competent.

894
01:17:21.895 --> 01:17:22.395
And

895
01:17:23.415 --> 01:17:30.395
that's, you know, what I use But you like, if you have a if you no. But hang on a second. If you have a face such a fail safe setup,

896
01:17:31.440 --> 01:17:35.940
like, there is no reason why you wouldn't use that. I would use that.

897
01:17:37.360 --> 01:17:40.260
Well, just go back to my friend again. Like, he would lose all his money.

898
01:17:40.720 --> 01:17:47.195
There's no reason why screw your friend for a second. Seriously, because he's already using a quote card anyways. Like, you like, seriously,

899
01:17:47.575 --> 01:17:49.115
like, if it is so devoid

900
01:17:50.295 --> 01:17:56.075
of foot guns and is so devoid of counterparty risk, you should be using it.

901
01:17:57.495 --> 01:18:04.380
Okay. Well, we can agree to this trade. If quote card goes away tomorrow, I don't know what I'm gonna use. I don't have a good answer right now.

902
01:18:05.240 --> 01:18:09.180
I was hoping that that was going to be the device I give to my wife after.

903
01:18:10.600 --> 01:18:12.620
Yeah. No. I mean, please keep

904
01:18:13.160 --> 01:18:13.660
producing.

905
01:18:14.440 --> 01:18:18.015
If you it Freaks, if you wanna get a bid key, it's bidkey.world.

906
01:18:19.015 --> 01:18:23.935
If you wanna get a cold card can't help it. If you wanna get a cold card, it's coldcard.com.

907
01:18:23.935 --> 01:18:30.355
Well, wait. You should disclose your sponsor too. They're they're not a sponsor. They dropped us. They're only a sponsor of Marty.

908
01:18:31.780 --> 01:18:39.560
They're they're no longer a sponsor of RHR, but I still love the product. I think the product's great. I I think it's great. I really I really like if they can just

909
01:18:40.020 --> 01:18:42.040
create the fucking script to Sparrow.

910
01:18:42.915 --> 01:18:47.494
Big key is the first Big key is the first device that I can give to my dad,

911
01:18:48.034 --> 01:18:59.060
and he won't fuck it up. And he can he can he can use real Bitcoin I'm telling you, man. In a relatively secure way. And I I I think I've told them ad nauseam. If they just create the fucking exit script,

912
01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:21.425
okay, of their system that does not depend on them, so there's truly unilateral exit, okay, and stop fucking FUDing. See How does that look to you? That's just, I would I would recommend that to, like, most people. But it's not it wouldn't be a siege with the way they have it set up. How would you have to access it? No. No. You you would have to be some setup where What would what would you recommend in that situation?

913
01:19:21.804 --> 01:19:39.245
You, you you know, you'd probably use the PDF plus, you know, there is some way to get the Plus the APK. That's what they're doing already. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Not the APK. It has to be They're doing a PDF plus an APK is the break last name. Plus Sparrow. Like, Steve literally went Okay. So you just want, like, a desktop app. You

914
01:19:40.265 --> 01:19:41.245
just want a desktop

915
01:19:41.945 --> 01:19:44.685
app. No. I want something that does not depend on block.

916
01:19:45.304 --> 01:19:54.420
So you want Sparrow to integrate the break glass mode. So you have the PDF and, and you're good to go. That's it. Yes. Thank you. Okay. I think we can make that happen.

917
01:19:55.760 --> 01:19:57.700
Okay. Awesome. Again, the lover.

918
01:19:58.560 --> 01:20:02.500
I'm glad we got that sorted. I think I hope the freaks enjoyed it.

919
01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:04.580
That was great.

920
01:20:05.680 --> 01:20:05.840
The

921
01:20:07.005 --> 01:20:08.465
so what's next for Coldcard?

922
01:20:09.325 --> 01:20:14.145
Are you, would you're gonna give us new products? Like, what more. Yes.

923
01:20:14.685 --> 01:20:22.980
We're working on making the the form factor, like, better, right, for both Mark four and q that never ends.

924
01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:27.060
You know, we are still a very sort of, like,

925
01:20:27.920 --> 01:20:31.940
compared to, like, major consumer electronics, like, we're still very small. Right?

926
01:20:34.175 --> 01:20:36.995
So there is a lot that could be done there to improve form factor.

927
01:20:38.335 --> 01:20:39.315
We are working

928
01:20:39.695 --> 01:20:40.195
on,

929
01:20:41.295 --> 01:20:47.475
both research and implementation of codex 32 so that people can have a Shamir secret sharing type

930
01:20:48.990 --> 01:20:50.290
of backup of seeds

931
01:20:51.310 --> 01:20:52.290
that is not

932
01:20:52.750 --> 01:20:59.410
prepared toward or uses different word lists. So, like, so it's not like slip 39. We're working on so you can have BIP 39

933
01:20:59.950 --> 01:21:02.210
words being Shamir secret share sharing.

934
01:21:02.795 --> 01:21:06.094
We are working on Why is that better than CDX store?

935
01:21:06.875 --> 01:21:08.415
Because, again, you have threshold.

936
01:21:09.435 --> 01:21:12.415
So what you can do two of three instead of two of two? Exactly.

937
01:21:13.275 --> 01:21:24.860
There there is a very good case for that. It's just that, you know, there was no good way of doing that before. And, you know, Polster went through, like, you know, like, major research to come up with Codex 32. Like,

938
01:21:25.320 --> 01:21:26.860
it it really is next level,

939
01:21:27.800 --> 01:21:29.820
and is an open standard. Right? Like,

940
01:21:30.200 --> 01:21:40.375
like, to us, like, we should be able to stop existing tomorrow, and it should not make any difference. Like, a single person should not have to go on Twitter and say, what the fuck do I do now that this guy's disappeared?

941
01:21:40.914 --> 01:21:45.414
They should be able to recover their funds. Like, that that is a number one thing in our minds.

942
01:21:47.360 --> 01:21:51.940
We're working on more sort of, like, ways for people who are sovereign individuals to do

943
01:21:52.480 --> 01:21:53.460
important things.

944
01:21:54.720 --> 01:21:59.385
We're looking into how to do more and maybe create transactions inside a cold card

945
01:22:00.344 --> 01:22:02.125
so that you don't need a computer.

946
01:22:02.824 --> 01:22:07.324
You know, it'd be more very, very restrictive and very limited, but, you know, that could help.

947
01:22:08.985 --> 01:22:12.204
We're working with a lot of other vendors to make things better

948
01:22:12.600 --> 01:22:16.060
without having to be verticalized in single vendor solutions.

949
01:22:17.239 --> 01:22:23.739
What happened with in terms of not relying on a outside device, like, you scrapped Satslink. Right?

950
01:22:24.280 --> 01:22:29.175
No. It's we dude, we've sold more Satslink than I think BitQ ever sell units.

951
01:22:30.195 --> 01:22:31.974
But they're not shipping.

952
01:22:33.434 --> 01:22:36.135
What sorry. No. Not Satslink. Sorry. I'm talking about TapSign.

953
01:22:36.994 --> 01:22:47.280
TapSign. No. Yeah. But Satslink is was like the q form factor with Wi Fi in it. Yeah. No. So, like, it's, it's it's What about are we ever gonna get a device like that?

954
01:22:48.140 --> 01:22:52.960
We keep on working on it as a side project, but, like, we can't still make the economic

955
01:22:53.705 --> 01:22:59.405
viable version of that for the What about, like, instead of it being portable, if it was, like,

956
01:23:00.985 --> 01:23:05.325
just always connected to an outlet? Like, can I can you, like, make, like, a base station?

957
01:23:06.740 --> 01:23:13.320
Like, a multi state coordinator base station that's, like end up just making a computer with Spero on it. Can you make a computer?

958
01:23:14.020 --> 01:23:18.920
But but, yes, I would love to. But, like, no, we're not gonna make a What about a car?

959
01:23:19.614 --> 01:23:23.315
Yeah. I would love to make a sick actually, I really wanted to make a secure keyboard.

960
01:23:25.375 --> 01:23:34.195
But Do you make a Land Cruiser competitor with just no no insecure computers in it? Like a bare minimum? It's it's called a Land Cruiser pre eighties.

961
01:23:37.340 --> 01:23:39.760
The favorite car by the terrorists too.

962
01:23:41.659 --> 01:23:46.960
I mean, your car is gonna get recalled by Pubco very soon. You know? Like, most cars now,

963
01:23:47.435 --> 01:23:47.935
they

964
01:23:48.315 --> 01:23:48.895
can remote

965
01:23:49.355 --> 01:23:51.695
stop it. Yeah. They can just turn off the car.

966
01:23:52.075 --> 01:23:52.575
Yes.

967
01:23:54.875 --> 01:23:58.415
No. But, I mean, I was half I was half joking. But, like, I do think,

968
01:24:01.470 --> 01:24:07.170
like, do you don't think that is a potential future for CoinKite that you have some kind of Internet connected device?

969
01:24:08.910 --> 01:24:11.550
We we we are sort of exploring, like,

970
01:24:12.110 --> 01:24:13.650
essentially, like, a a box,

971
01:24:14.495 --> 01:24:20.755
a cheap, affordable box for people to be able to store secrets remotely. So when they cross borders and things,

972
01:24:21.295 --> 01:24:23.075
they can recover the information

973
01:24:23.455 --> 01:24:23.955
remotely.

974
01:24:24.575 --> 01:24:42.595
But but we don't want we are not gonna Well, like a note. You're, like, thinking of it, like, an almost like a note. Like, I have it plugged in at home. I cross the border, and then I ping back to it or something. Yeah. Now imagine if this this little device has, another copy in your parents' house, and they can store each other's data without seeing each other's data, for example. Yeah.

975
01:24:42.975 --> 01:24:44.675
And it should be very affordable.

976
01:24:45.535 --> 01:24:50.835
Okay. I'm just gonna throw this out there. Sure. You know, but hopefully, you make it. But, like,

977
01:24:51.375 --> 01:24:53.635
I don't have you tried the new version of white noise?

978
01:24:55.780 --> 01:25:09.800
Not yet. So the new version is actually stable. So we we launched it on still dispatch, and the first version was very unstable. And people that have listened, maybe you tried the first version. Consider trying the new updated version. It's still early,

979
01:25:10.344 --> 01:25:11.645
but it's it's working.

980
01:25:12.105 --> 01:25:14.764
It's working. Like, I'm able to send messages and stuff.

981
01:25:15.545 --> 01:25:18.445
The cold card queue form factor, and I just

982
01:25:19.065 --> 01:25:21.804
let me do white noise without, like, a phone or anything.

983
01:25:22.105 --> 01:25:25.920
Why why would I need that? Secure chat. Is gonna use it. There's gonna be, like, three people

984
01:25:27.920 --> 01:25:39.219
gonna buy it. Would you remember, like, back in the day, we used to have, like, the text messengers? I'd love that. Like, oh You you probably do that. Somebody yeah. No. It's it's it's you it's not, like, it's not gonna happen. There is no market for that. I would buy it.

985
01:25:40.245 --> 01:25:44.505
Yeah. No. And then and then, you're gonna get another pub called the launch as a device.

986
01:25:44.885 --> 01:25:47.145
You don't think companies it could be interoperable.

987
01:25:47.605 --> 01:25:51.945
No. So we used to have that. It's called Blackberry. Blackberry was a secure device,

988
01:25:53.260 --> 01:25:54.719
and then and then the FUDs,

989
01:25:55.500 --> 01:25:57.040
you know, they killed the company.

990
01:26:00.219 --> 01:26:01.520
Yeah. That's what I want.

991
01:26:01.900 --> 01:26:04.719
Yeah. No. Not gonna happen. I'm not making that.

992
01:26:05.965 --> 01:26:10.225
But, but somebody should definitely make a wallet that works over a chat

993
01:26:10.845 --> 01:26:19.825
so that you can just talk to a chat because then you can bypass you can bypass no. No. Even single seg. They you know, like, the the cold card can just give it,

994
01:26:21.390 --> 01:26:31.490
some addresses and then the the or an ex pub and then the the chat can go check the chain and create a PSPT. That'd be amazing. You could make it like What do you mean, like, AI chat plus cold card?

995
01:26:33.005 --> 01:26:40.844
Kind of. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Like, I The AI chat would be on a phone or computer. Right? The cold card's just signing. You'll be you'll be like, say,

996
01:26:41.804 --> 01:26:45.665
we were actually working on this, making a a a wallet that he can

997
01:26:46.420 --> 01:26:48.039
essentially, do wallet stuff

998
01:26:48.500 --> 01:26:50.280
using simple x as a chat.

999
01:26:51.460 --> 01:27:02.324
And then, essentially, you give it an x pub. The the the bot the chatbot essentially go checks the chain for you and then creates a PSPT. Instead of Sparrow checking or code or whatever.

1000
01:27:02.625 --> 01:27:05.925
Yeah. Because the cool thing about that is, one, you can use SPV,

1001
01:27:06.625 --> 01:27:08.485
and two is you can,

1002
01:27:09.264 --> 01:27:10.165
you can bypass

1003
01:27:10.784 --> 01:27:12.885
any Internet restriction. Right? Because

1004
01:27:13.640 --> 01:27:20.060
you can use Tor in the background. You don't know when you're using Tor. All kinds of amazing things. But and you don't have to create an app.

1005
01:27:20.760 --> 01:27:25.500
But you also don't have to use the PWA, which is literally the worst thing on Earth in terms of experience.

1006
01:27:26.225 --> 01:27:28.405
Like, I hate PWAs. You don't like PWAs?

1007
01:27:28.865 --> 01:27:29.685
It's horrible.

1008
01:27:30.465 --> 01:27:36.005
I like PWAs. The fact that a PWA is working on your computer or your phone means your phone is not secured.

1009
01:27:36.465 --> 01:27:38.645
If if you turn on phone security,

1010
01:27:39.330 --> 01:27:43.510
the PWAs stop working because PWAs are essentially remote code execution.

1011
01:27:44.690 --> 01:27:49.909
I mean, browsers are effectively remote code execution. Right? Yes. But you can like a package.

1012
01:27:50.210 --> 01:27:53.510
But you can cock it. Right? Like, you essentially say, please don't run

1013
01:27:57.465 --> 01:27:58.765
FWA on it. Okay.

1014
01:27:59.305 --> 01:27:59.805
Yes.

1015
01:28:01.065 --> 01:28:01.565
Anyways,

1016
01:28:02.585 --> 01:28:06.525
I think So you're just gonna keep coming up with more secure gold cards. That's the plan, basically?

1017
01:28:06.960 --> 01:28:07.700
More usable,

1018
01:28:08.160 --> 01:28:08.980
more featureful.

1019
01:28:09.280 --> 01:28:11.780
Yes. Until What about a touch screen?

1020
01:28:14.160 --> 01:28:17.300
We looked into it. The problem is, like, there there is no secure

1021
01:28:17.680 --> 01:28:23.535
touch screen that we're comfortable with. Like, there is no for you to have touch on a screen, there is a massive amount of,

1022
01:28:25.135 --> 01:28:35.280
touch logic that lives in a normally an FPGA or or kinda like a specific chip that's a black box in the display itself. Right? So there really is no secure touch.

1023
01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:37.780
Even Ledger,

1024
01:28:39.119 --> 01:28:41.940
were not able to do that. They still do their touch functionality

1025
01:28:42.320 --> 01:28:42.820
in,

1026
01:28:43.599 --> 01:28:45.460
like, outside of their secure element.

1027
01:28:45.840 --> 01:28:48.739
Which is how do they handle the security with their new touchscreen devices?

1028
01:28:49.395 --> 01:28:51.975
I mean, the touch on the security is not that secure.

1029
01:28:53.715 --> 01:28:59.815
Because the the problem with touch is that, like, I mean, if you can remote view the screen, which is not too hard nowadays,

1030
01:29:01.760 --> 01:29:14.420
You know, you can you can figure out the PIN. You can figure out all kinds of shit. You can also Wouldn't you have to compromise you'd have to, like, physically have access to the screen while they're pressing the PIN in. No? No. You can you can have malicious firmware on the screen.

1031
01:29:15.454 --> 01:29:27.155
Oh, I see what you're saying. So you do any of this as update, and it just updates the screen and pulls your PIN out. And remember, all these modules for for touch screens are made in China. Right? So they come with a chip on it.

1032
01:29:29.980 --> 01:29:40.480
It's pretty tricky. Fair enough. I mean, like, the the point is, like, we are at a point now that's, like, it is fucking easy and fucking great to use Bitcoin, like, if you're using a cold card with, like, Cove. Like, you know,

1033
01:29:40.940 --> 01:29:42.240
it really is stupid.

1034
01:29:43.935 --> 01:29:50.034
Everything else now, it's sort of like, okay, how can we create more sort of solutions for edge cases in people's lives. Right?

1035
01:29:53.135 --> 01:29:56.195
We spend a lot of time trying to to sort of like make

1036
01:29:57.610 --> 01:29:59.950
ways for people to more easily

1037
01:30:00.570 --> 01:30:05.550
back up seeds, but you always end up with the same sort of problem. Right? Which is, like, you still have to keep it secret,

1038
01:30:06.170 --> 01:30:06.670
secure.

1039
01:30:09.225 --> 01:30:13.005
So might as well just keep it simple then and keep that seed secure.

1040
01:30:14.505 --> 01:30:16.765
By the way, Frank, so we're talking about code a lot.

1041
01:30:17.625 --> 01:30:17.945
It's,

1042
01:30:18.665 --> 01:30:20.125
dude, I can hear you typing.

1043
01:30:21.559 --> 01:30:23.739
Myself out of the computer. I have to type my password.

1044
01:30:24.440 --> 01:30:25.079
I mute

1045
01:30:25.559 --> 01:30:31.099
I muted you, and then you spoke, and then I unmuted you, and then you continued to type. Yeah. I'm trying to unmute.

1046
01:30:31.639 --> 01:30:33.239
I don't have a producer, so I'm

1047
01:30:34.215 --> 01:30:36.955
the freaks are just gonna have to listen to typing. There you go.

1048
01:30:37.735 --> 01:30:38.235
I,

1049
01:30:39.815 --> 01:30:41.195
we talked about Cove Bitcoin,

1050
01:30:41.975 --> 01:30:45.835
the Cove wallet a lot. It's an open source wallet. It's iOS only right now.

1051
01:30:46.160 --> 01:30:51.380
It will be Android soon. I think it's single sig only. It will be multisig soon,

1052
01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:54.260
but it's covebitcoinwallet.com.

1053
01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:55.460
Yes.

1054
01:30:55.840 --> 01:31:00.820
By the way, I I'm one of those people in the in the DMs with Jeff a lot, the white noise guy,

1055
01:31:01.865 --> 01:31:02.765
developing MLS,

1056
01:31:03.545 --> 01:31:06.205
which is a protocol for for white noise.

1057
01:31:07.065 --> 01:31:20.870
I think I think this is gonna be, like, a game changer, once it starts getting more featureful. Really excited about white noise. And what I really want is, essentially, like, you know, Jeff is gonna build an amazing protocol, but I really need Milian to build the UI for the app.

1058
01:31:22.050 --> 01:31:25.350
So Yeah. I'm really looking forward to using MLS on on primal.

1059
01:31:25.890 --> 01:31:27.030
Yeah. We'll integrate

1060
01:31:27.905 --> 01:31:30.565
white noise into primal, once it's stable.

1061
01:31:33.425 --> 01:31:35.025
By the way, that's whitenoise.

1062
01:31:35.025 --> 01:31:35.525
Chat.

1063
01:31:37.185 --> 01:31:43.560
If you wanna test it out, that's multi platform. That's on Android and iPhone, and you can just if you wanna test it, just feel free to send me a message.

1064
01:31:45.720 --> 01:31:48.300
Super easy. Just search Odell and send me a message.

1065
01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:50.680
Make sure it's Odell@primal.net.

1066
01:31:50.680 --> 01:31:52.860
That's the correct Odell. There's a lot of imposters.

1067
01:31:54.280 --> 01:31:58.060
But I think it should just pull up the correct send all my Bitcoin to the wrong Odell.

1068
01:31:58.365 --> 01:32:00.945
Don't I will not send you 2 Bitcoin back.

1069
01:32:01.325 --> 01:32:03.265
The only person making that claim is Sailor.

1070
01:32:05.085 --> 01:32:09.665
Do not do not send me any Bitcoin unless you're supporting the show through Facebook Podcast

1071
01:32:10.205 --> 01:32:14.360
or your favorite Napster app. All links are at thedispatch.com.

1072
01:32:14.740 --> 01:32:19.400
Wait. No. Is it the version I have here is old. It's not it's not working. Yeah. The new version is good.

1073
01:32:22.740 --> 01:32:25.560
Anything else you wanna talk about before we wrap?

1074
01:32:26.395 --> 01:32:28.335
No. I mean, it's all it's all you, man.

1075
01:32:28.875 --> 01:32:30.975
You're you're the boss of the Citadel dispatch.

1076
01:32:33.275 --> 01:32:37.935
Yeah. People should be using Nostr. I don't see enough Citadel dispatch people in Nostr.

1077
01:32:39.050 --> 01:32:42.190
What do you, how do you what are your thoughts on Nostr right now?

1078
01:32:42.809 --> 01:32:43.710
Are you optimistic?

1079
01:32:44.090 --> 01:32:44.829
Or are you

1080
01:32:45.449 --> 01:32:52.110
I think the problem with Nostr right now is that, like, trying to get Bitcoiners that hate Nostr to come to

1081
01:32:52.954 --> 01:32:55.135
to Nasr is sort of like stupid.

1082
01:32:56.395 --> 01:32:58.014
I I wanna see like

1083
01:32:58.635 --> 01:33:12.360
but you know how it is. I mean, people don't care about privacy or sovereignty until, like, they get kicked in the nuts. Right? And and Twitter is fun again. Like, Axe is actually fun. Like, I mean, everybody's there, you know, especially the ten thirty one accounts there.

1084
01:33:14.040 --> 01:33:20.460
And, you know, we're all having, like, a ball of a time there. And and it's hard to, like, break that cycle. Right? So

1085
01:33:21.075 --> 01:33:27.575
I I think, like, Noster needs to do the things that he can't do on Twitter. Right? Like, aside from the privacy because nobody gives a shit about privacy.

1086
01:33:28.435 --> 01:33:31.975
It's like I wanna, you know, I wanna be able to replace my,

1087
01:33:32.515 --> 01:33:33.335
my newsletter,

1088
01:33:33.875 --> 01:33:34.535
you know,

1089
01:33:34.860 --> 01:33:50.060
with, like, something that does newsletter as well and does email as well, like or whatever it is. Like I think white noise could be a piece of that. Yes. Because, like, being able to zap and use Bitcoin natively because signal refuses to Like, an alternative to signal and Telegram and

1090
01:33:50.835 --> 01:33:56.935
It's brutal. I mean, you know, there is no app right now. If they nail group chats, well,

1091
01:33:57.395 --> 01:33:58.535
you know, it could be.

1092
01:33:58.995 --> 01:33:59.975
There is no

1093
01:34:00.915 --> 01:34:01.975
there is no,

1094
01:34:02.675 --> 01:34:05.735
instant messaging app right now that has Bitcoin native,

1095
01:34:06.430 --> 01:34:17.650
which is it's it's not a private a phone number except for maybe simple x. I mean, the Yes. That has its own issues. Yeah. No. The the the phone number thing, man, is just so egregious.

1096
01:34:17.950 --> 01:34:21.410
And and Yeah. Reality is, like, 90% of the world uses WhatsApp.

1097
01:34:21.915 --> 01:34:24.494
And WhatsApp is, like, doesn't even hide your phone number.

1098
01:34:25.514 --> 01:34:35.215
Yeah. So we can get even a piece of that into white noise, then that's pretty big momentum for Nestor. I I love that. The same social graph, which is cool. That's right. It's not like a separate social graph.

1099
01:34:36.420 --> 01:34:37.240
Very much.

1100
01:34:37.860 --> 01:34:44.280
I I think that's, that's I mean, the other piece is though, the part that me and you disagree on a lot,

1101
01:34:46.340 --> 01:34:51.195
and I feel fine disclosing that because if I just bring it up, I know you'll just publicly disagree with me,

1102
01:34:52.074 --> 01:34:54.655
is particularly with all this software discussion

1103
01:34:55.275 --> 01:34:58.655
on x right now. It's like everyone's blocking everybody.

1104
01:34:59.195 --> 01:35:10.579
So if you wanna actually have an open discussion about these things, really, like, Nostra is the only place you can do that. Otherwise, everyone just blocks each other into their echo chambers So I think which I think is an advantage we have.

1105
01:35:10.960 --> 01:35:12.659
So I think that's the part that, like,

1106
01:35:13.199 --> 01:35:44.030
one reason why people don't wanna be on nostril is that people want to have a sane, reasonable feat. They don't like, if I don't wanna talk to somebody, I don't wanna talk to somebody. It's like blocking an Oster doesn't really work. And he's a big he's a big safe space guy when it comes to Oh, absolutely. To Kyle. I don't I don't wanna see call me shit on my feed. So but you can mute it. Life is too short, man. But mute You just can't restrict replies. That's what you should be. Is it doesn't work that well because then, like, some fucking retard I don't block responds to the guy who just commented on my thing, and then I see it.

1107
01:35:44.650 --> 01:35:50.655
Well, that's just like, the apps can handle muting better for you. Nah. Just fuck it. Just block it. Like, you know, like,

1108
01:35:51.055 --> 01:35:52.835
I don't have an issue. It's great.

1109
01:35:53.215 --> 01:35:54.915
Most people want safe spaces.

1110
01:35:55.295 --> 01:35:57.375
That's why, like, you know, the guys, like, the restricting

1111
01:35:57.935 --> 01:36:05.150
influencers being able to restrict replies is bad for society. That's why Jack and crew are building their, their safe space,

1112
01:36:05.930 --> 01:36:14.190
universe thing there, right, where it's like people are gonna have to people are gonna be able to have private communities because in private communities, you don't have the people you don't wanna talk to.

1113
01:36:14.885 --> 01:36:19.945
It's reason like, dude, for, like, millennia, humans have been building walls around

1114
01:36:20.485 --> 01:36:21.305
their shit.

1115
01:36:21.925 --> 01:36:23.385
It's it's like it's okay.

1116
01:36:26.005 --> 01:36:30.530
I think I'm pro I'm pro physical walls. I like walls in real life.

1117
01:36:31.070 --> 01:36:32.770
But why don't there walls in

1118
01:36:33.390 --> 01:36:36.290
in dialogue? I think large public figures

1119
01:36:36.670 --> 01:36:39.330
that are able to restrict replies is bad for society.

1120
01:36:39.710 --> 01:36:42.765
Like, I think people should be able to say it. I agree. I agree.

1121
01:36:43.145 --> 01:36:48.125
But I don't think, like, the block is not the solver. The problem is these people shouldn't have an outsized

1122
01:36:48.905 --> 01:36:53.485
influence in society with laws that we shouldn't have. Well, okay. So let me use an extreme example.

1123
01:36:53.945 --> 01:36:54.445
Okay.

1124
01:36:54.889 --> 01:37:05.310
Should the president of The United States be able to stop who replies to the his truth social posts? You know, in Canada, it's illegal for you as a politician to block somebody on social media.

1125
01:37:06.090 --> 01:37:10.349
Yeah. I mean, I I don't think it should be based on a law. I think it should just be technically

1126
01:37:10.785 --> 01:37:12.385
impossible for them to do it. No. I mean, I

1127
01:37:13.185 --> 01:37:13.844
you know,

1128
01:37:14.705 --> 01:37:21.125
the problem is it's like it's always gonna be possible because, like, if one app doesn't support blocking on Nasr, another app will. Right?

1129
01:37:22.625 --> 01:37:30.820
I mean, like, like, support me. Look at look at that Ola. Is it Is it Olas that just, like, had a bot that went around, like, removing people who had a different opinion?

1130
01:37:32.560 --> 01:37:33.860
No. It wasn't Olas.

1131
01:37:34.320 --> 01:37:38.739
It was which one was? It was the one from Robin? Nas nas.social.

1132
01:37:39.520 --> 01:37:40.420
Nasdot,

1133
01:37:41.805 --> 01:37:43.005
yeah, nas.social,

1134
01:37:43.005 --> 01:37:44.685
I think. Olas was,

1135
01:37:45.325 --> 01:37:45.825
Pablo's

1136
01:37:46.445 --> 01:37:50.065
Right. It was the picture. Instagram thing. It was great, by the way.

1137
01:37:51.725 --> 01:37:54.765
But but once again, like, nas.social

1138
01:37:54.765 --> 01:37:55.425
was not

1139
01:37:57.289 --> 01:38:01.150
was not restricting replies. They just weren't showing them. They were muting people.

1140
01:38:01.610 --> 01:38:04.590
Yeah. I think I think the first making it not visible.

1141
01:38:05.210 --> 01:38:07.309
But if you use a different app, they were visible.

1142
01:38:07.785 --> 01:38:13.324
I think the main thing is, like, you can't effectively block on Master unless you're using a private relay. Right?

1143
01:38:13.785 --> 01:38:14.285
So

1144
01:38:14.824 --> 01:38:16.045
I think the block

1145
01:38:16.425 --> 01:38:23.485
spirit of functionality is great, and I think having that kind of functionality in an open network is okay because

1146
01:38:24.320 --> 01:38:25.140
your message,

1147
01:38:25.520 --> 01:38:28.100
if it's on a public relay, it's still visible

1148
01:38:28.480 --> 01:38:52.290
to everybody else, and they can still quote dunk on you even if you block them. I you know, you you should have just a choice on x. On x, you can't quote someone. Know. But x is not an open protocol. If they if they block people. If they block I know. I know. And, like, how many influencers do you see now that just say like, they're just auto restricting replies? Like, unless I follow you or mention you, you can't even reply. So it's it's even further than blocks.

1149
01:38:52.850 --> 01:39:01.910
I mean, I I don't, like, I don't have a huge issue with that. I mean, like, you see a celebrity on the street, like, I mean, you feel sorry for the person. Like, it's like every fucking person comes talk to them. It's annoying.

1150
01:39:03.090 --> 01:39:06.230
Right? Like, so why does their life online have to be any different?

1151
01:39:07.035 --> 01:39:08.975
I mean, they could just choose not to post.

1152
01:39:11.675 --> 01:39:14.895
I mean, like I think to be fair, like okay. Think about it this

1153
01:39:16.315 --> 01:39:17.855
way. FiatJF's original

1154
01:39:18.890 --> 01:39:29.470
original intent and thought was for people to mostly be using private relays. Right? So you have public relays that do some stuff, but then people will be using private relays for a lot of their conversations.

1155
01:39:30.330 --> 01:39:34.270
Right? In a private relay is worse than a block. You can't even see it.

1156
01:39:34.785 --> 01:39:37.205
Yeah. That's what the searching for a dev is not finding

1157
01:39:37.505 --> 01:39:50.085
on But quite nice. Wait. You already follow me, so it should it should find me right away. But it's gone. Don't you follow me? Yeah. I do, but it's not showing up. Odeo. Just search or do give it a second. It's probably indexing or whatever.

1158
01:39:50.660 --> 01:39:53.400
No. No. Everybody else shows, by the way, except for you.

1159
01:39:55.460 --> 01:39:57.940
Hang on. That's weird. Search Odell@primal.net.

1160
01:39:57.940 --> 01:40:01.400
See, everybody's here. Search Odell@primal.net.

1161
01:40:01.700 --> 01:40:04.034
Oh, maybe the at does it?

1162
01:40:06.414 --> 01:40:08.195
But that's what group chats are for.

1163
01:40:09.215 --> 01:40:09.715
Like

1164
01:40:10.655 --> 01:40:20.559
Yeah. But what's cool about I think it's because you set it up earlier. You have to Yeah. It's possible. To developer settings. You have to wipe your keys and then restore new keys.

1165
01:40:21.020 --> 01:40:22.880
Anyways, the the what's cool

1166
01:40:23.260 --> 01:40:29.840
about an open No. No. But do you understand, like but that's where group chats exist. Like, it came out during COVID

1167
01:40:30.860 --> 01:40:32.239
that or during,

1168
01:40:33.065 --> 01:40:35.485
like, when when everything was hyper politicized,

1169
01:40:35.864 --> 01:40:40.045
that there was a bunch of tech bros and, like, a 120 person group chat

1170
01:40:40.425 --> 01:40:58.750
where they were talking without people being able to comment on what they were talking about. And that's, like, that's completely in the right. That makes sense to me. But when you are, like, an influencer and you're trying to influence people, like, that's where the name comes from, and you're trying to dictate public policy and dictate how people live their lives, and at the same time you restrict replies,

1171
01:40:59.369 --> 01:41:06.365
that's fucked up for society. Like, people should be able to respond to you're choosing It's a tricky thing, though. You're choosing to get on the soapbox.

1172
01:41:06.825 --> 01:41:25.980
That's, like, that's not a celebrity walking down the street. That's someone standing at the corner with on a soapbox with a with a microphone in their hand, not expecting people to reply to them. Force people to use Nostr? Are you gonna force No. I'm just saying that I think it'll be better for society when replies are not like what the president of The United States did. You know? He's gonna go and create his own social network.

1173
01:41:26.335 --> 01:41:33.395
Right? That's what people do. Like, you can't prevent people But that's why but Nasr didn't exist yet at that point. I know. But people you can't prevent people

1174
01:41:34.335 --> 01:41:40.514
from creating I'm not saying prevent people. I'm saying you give them better option, and they will hopefully choose it. Sure. Sure.

1175
01:41:41.650 --> 01:41:53.750
I think we agree. It's just that we we disagree. I mean, no. You are super pro block guy. Like, you block punches. Yeah. I love it. People are in your ex block list right now? I have absolutely no idea. Absolutely no idea. Probably more.

1176
01:41:55.165 --> 01:42:02.864
Never blocked anyone in my life. No. Like and you know what? Like, I it's like, I used to be a no block person until I I spent some time in.

1177
01:42:03.565 --> 01:42:11.760
Like, this is eons ago. Right? And I was like he's like, you know, like, these people don't deserve your time. I'm like, that's a very good point.

1178
01:42:12.460 --> 01:42:18.560
Block. Block. Block. Block. Because, like, the thing is, I have a very simple policy, okay, with block.

1179
01:42:19.180 --> 01:42:29.335
It's like, I it's not about people who disagree with me. It's not about people who wanna have like, you could fight with me as much as you want. Don't give a shit. It's like it's like people who

1180
01:42:30.115 --> 01:42:38.215
just come to call me a name and have literally nothing to offer just accept waste my time or be the reply guy with nothing to say.

1181
01:42:39.390 --> 01:42:42.050
It's, like, it's spam. Like, I essentially block spam.

1182
01:42:44.510 --> 01:42:45.890
Okay. Well, look, we can

1183
01:42:46.270 --> 01:42:47.250
agree to disagree.

1184
01:42:47.710 --> 01:42:52.455
Yeah. I mean, like, I guess it's, like, it's a degree of, like, what people consider spam, what people don't consider spam.

1185
01:42:54.535 --> 01:42:55.335
By the way,

1186
01:42:55.655 --> 01:42:56.955
you mentioned safe.

1187
01:42:58.375 --> 01:42:59.835
On the Francis rip,

1188
01:43:00.935 --> 01:43:04.055
one of the zaps on fountain was 2,500

1189
01:43:04.055 --> 01:43:05.435
sats from Tesla Liberty.

1190
01:43:05.990 --> 01:43:09.050
And he said my five favorite Bitcoiners aside from Satoshi,

1191
01:43:10.310 --> 01:43:12.810
in no particular order, are Matt Odell, Francis,

1192
01:43:13.350 --> 01:43:14.250
Michael Saylor,

1193
01:43:14.790 --> 01:43:16.410
Safe, and American Huddl,

1194
01:43:16.950 --> 01:43:17.590
which I just

1195
01:43:18.465 --> 01:43:22.165
first of all, I appreciate the support. But second of all, like, that what a wide group

1196
01:43:22.945 --> 01:43:24.005
of top five.

1197
01:43:24.305 --> 01:43:30.565
Well, I mean, that's what smart people do. Smart people have a wide pool of opinions. Right? I mean, seriously. Yeah. They exist.

1198
01:43:30.970 --> 01:43:33.870
Those people exist. Don't block. Yeah. I know. Right?

1199
01:43:36.090 --> 01:43:42.270
Okay. Awesome. Well, this is a great rip. I think we went a little bit longer than we expected. I think I told you it was gonna be, like, a half an hour.

1200
01:43:46.745 --> 01:43:47.245
But,

1201
01:43:48.025 --> 01:43:55.465
do you have any I guess people don't know that we talk every day, all day on DMs. Yeah. You're one of my you're one of my closest friends,

1202
01:43:56.840 --> 01:43:59.260
And I I appreciate I I appreciate,

1203
01:44:02.280 --> 01:44:09.739
I appreciate your strong opinions even when I disagree with them, but and I really appreciate fucking cold card and everything you and Peter have built.

1204
01:44:11.115 --> 01:44:14.255
My family relies on it. My projects rely on it.

1205
01:44:15.675 --> 01:44:18.655
World would be a way worse place without it, so thank you, sir.

1206
01:44:19.195 --> 01:44:20.895
We appreciate you, Odell.

1207
01:44:21.435 --> 01:44:24.450
You you people like you is why we we do what we do.

1208
01:44:26.530 --> 01:44:27.030
Freaks.

1209
01:44:27.970 --> 01:44:28.790
As always,

1210
01:44:29.330 --> 01:44:31.830
best way to support the show is to share with friends and family.

1211
01:44:32.210 --> 01:44:33.330
Cildespatch.com.

1212
01:44:33.330 --> 01:44:35.750
Search cildespatch in your favorite podcast apps.

1213
01:44:36.610 --> 01:44:42.155
All the links are there. Second best way to support is by sending SaaS to the show, found to podcast, Primal,

1214
01:44:42.695 --> 01:44:43.655
any Inoster app.

1215
01:44:45.015 --> 01:44:48.555
It is appreciated. Give me your feedback. Let me know what you think,

1216
01:44:49.175 --> 01:44:57.590
what you wanna see going forward, who I should invite as guests. Don't, like, suggest someone that is, like, completely out of reach unless you can get them for me.

1217
01:44:57.970 --> 01:45:06.710
Hey, Matt. Don't be like, oh, president Trump, like, come on the show. Can I have Trump on the show? Yeah. I would love to. I would love to have Trump on the show. If you have an inroad,

1218
01:45:07.090 --> 01:45:08.475
let me know how to get it.

1219
01:45:09.755 --> 01:45:10.255
But,

1220
01:45:11.995 --> 01:45:12.475
let's,

1221
01:45:12.875 --> 01:45:14.715
let's keep having fun with it, and let's,

1222
01:45:15.435 --> 01:45:18.495
just keep grinding. Bitcoin's a marathon, not a sprint.

1223
01:45:19.275 --> 01:45:21.690
MVK, you have any final thoughts before we wrap?

1224
01:45:22.730 --> 01:45:24.830
No, man. I appreciate the conversation.

1225
01:45:26.010 --> 01:45:30.750
And, like, keep on doing what you're doing, and the, you know, Bitcoin education is a hard grind.

1226
01:45:31.850 --> 01:45:38.045
And ethical Bitcoin education is not something that most people do because, you know, it's not gonna

1227
01:45:38.985 --> 01:45:39.805
make it

1228
01:45:40.425 --> 01:45:46.228
rain. And, you know, we we super appreciate the fact that there's still honest educators out there like you.

1229
01:45:47.188 --> 01:45:48.328
Cheers to that.

1230
01:45:49.108 --> 01:45:52.568
Much love, MBK. Love you freaks. Stay on the sax hats. Peace.