CD180: MILJAN - PRIMAL

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 10/02/2025 05:11:07
Duration: 3256.404
Channels: 1

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What is up, freaks?

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Changing up a little bit this week.

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We are currently at our annual ten thirty one retreat.

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We do this every year.

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We bring all the founders of of the different companies in the ten thirty one portfolio,

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and,

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we throw a closed doors event for about three days where everyone

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enjoys each other's company, collaborates,

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gets to know each other better.

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And I have our good friend, Millian, here, CEO of Primal,

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founder. How's it going, sir? Sup, freaks? I'm going great.

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I hope the audio quality is not

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too horrible. I think it'll be decent.

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But

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we figured it was still worth it to have a chat.

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100%.

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So what do you wanna talk about?

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I don't know. Primal, maybe?

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Fair enough. Oh, first first, I would like what do you think of the retreat?

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This is your third year. Right? This is my third year here.

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Very high quality, high signal event.

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Seems that the events are getting better by the year.

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The the level of signal is increasing, so that's good.

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And it's just good to,

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hang out with everybody, you know, informally,

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shoot the shit,

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brainstorm.

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A lot of good things come out of it usually.

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We had

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we had an open discussion that I led today

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about

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how many

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Bitcoiners there are in the world

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and how we can increase that amount.

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I thought you had some unique thoughts on it. How do you think about it?

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Well, first, we had some kind of trouble defining what a Bitcoiner is. Right? And depending depending on how you do that, you come up with vastly different numbers. Mhmm. So,

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you know, on the one extreme, you can count everybody who has a Coinbase account or who has, like, some money in a Bitcoin ETF.

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And that seems to be

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in the tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions, like, seem to be kind of

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one extreme.

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And the other extreme is the one you set up with

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at least 1 BTC in self custody. Well, I like that because it's objective.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is like

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and, But you're still a Bitcoiner if you have less than one Bitcoin itself. 100%. 100%. But it's a night it's an interesting thought process to go through.

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Totally. This is kind of having significant wealth, let's say, in Bitcoin and savings. Right?

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And

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with everybody here, you know, we we're all basically guessing. So every company that's here

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has their own numbers, and we can kind of extrapolate from there.

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But it's,

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it's really hard to make these estimates.

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And,

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like, if you define a Bitcoiner as somebody who has

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any amount in self custody Okay. Let's say,

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seems from the conversation today that we're probably looking at

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way less than a million people.

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Probably Any amount of Bitcoin in self custody?

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Well, okay. Any, like,

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meaning non dust amount. Like, more than a million sats. Let's say more more than a million sats. If if you have a thousand bucks in Bitcoin Yeah. That can kind of you can start considering that some there to be some savings. Right?

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And,

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the numbers in they're not as bullish as the numbers you'd hear a lot of times,

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you know, mentioned in in this context. People like to talk about millions of users, tens of millions of users.

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The the the current cohort of Bitcoiners is still pretty small, which I guess is, and you can take an optimistic point of view, which is a there's a lot of growth still ahead.

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But, yeah, like, how many pit people

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even tune into Bitcoin podcasts?

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I think it's in the hundreds of thousands. It's probably like a 100,000. Yeah. It's not in millions.

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How many how big is Bitcoin Twitter? It's like a 150,000.

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That's probably correct. How big is Nostra in terms of active users? 70,000.

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Probably about half that. My my estimate is that Nostra is about half of Bitcoin Twitter,

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but it's the better.

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It's the better It's the better half. It's the better half.

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And

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there are fewer,

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you know,

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paper Bitcoin summer people in Nasr.

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There are some, but, like, there are way more of those types of guys on, on Bitcoin Twitter, I think.

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But, yeah, lots of, growth.

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But, I mean, the real question is, like, I I mean, I don't think we came up to, like, a good actionable solution

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on how to grow the pie.

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I'd I

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I've never been more bullish on Bitcoin,

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but

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in terms of new people coming in and using Bitcoin,

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I feel like we've stalled out a little bit.

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I agree. And I think about that a lot in the context of Primal. So

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even though Primal is a Nostril client with a Bitcoin wallet kinda built in,

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Nostr itself is still,

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very much a kind of social network for Bitcoiners,

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which,

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which is fine by me.

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At Primal, we wanna focus on making it amazing for Bitcoiners.

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And, of course, everyone is welcome.

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It's just that there's

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we get we have a lot of Bitcoin content already. And if you're a Bitcoiner, you're more likely to stay if if you sign up.

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So I think we we can do a lot,

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to make both Nasr and Primal much nicer for Bitcoiners.

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And one of the things that I would love to do,

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in in an upcoming release of Primal

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is

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make it possible to get onboarded

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to to onboard new Bitcoiners and and kinda new coiners

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in a way that gets them gets them up to speed with

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some basic content. So so whoever is onboarding can recommend

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people to follow,

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articles to read,

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videos to watch, etcetera. Stuff that already exists in Master,

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but do that in such a way that it's very nice and smooth and seamless,

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you know, kind of get onboarded using this invite code. Getting started pack. Getting start. Look. Let's say Bitcoin one on one

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in terms of follows and content.

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And then if we can nail that UX,

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that can scale to any subject.

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Right? Right. Because eventually, I think Nostra gets everyone.

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And

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at this early stage, it's all about which groups are interested in this this type of stuff. And so how but how do you think that looks? Is that like the user is

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creating, like, a custom getting started pack, and then they get, like, a link or something that they share? Or Yeah. So, for example, any user should be able to create this,

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invite pack that contains suggested follows,

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and suggested content for any topic.

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And,

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people who get that invite code,

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or invite link can,

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you know, get really nice UX where they can opt in or out of these

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recommended,

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you know, follows and content.

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And

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in theory, get up to speed pretty quickly with any subject area.

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And then you leave it in the hands of the content creator or whoever's creating this invite

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to curate

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whatever they think is

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interesting and relevant for that subject area.

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That way, it's not primal deciding what everybody should read when it comes to Bitcoin.

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But subject area experts are people who are trusted either by their friends or by their audience.

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Just providing great UX for them to get onboarded and

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get started with a certain topic. I think that would be

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that would be really nice to have. Like, I you you know, we always need to go back and think, okay. Why why would anybody be on us? Why would anybody be on primal? Like, what's in it,

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like, for the user?

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And this could be give given that is a very

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diverse,

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very kind of,

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capable

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protocol

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for

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all different content types, like social feeds,

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long form textual content, long form video content, etcetera.

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I think this type of feature set is well suited for Nostra.

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So, yeah,

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this this could be a nice, addition to both Nostra and Primal.

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No. I like that. I mean, I would I would I would use it all the time. I mean, when I onboard someone and I've onboarded

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way too many people,

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I'm just dropping them so many links. Yeah. Right? So So instead, this would just be one link. Yeah. And it would just, like,

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send them off to the races.

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Usually, it's overwhelming both for the person Yeah. You don't wanna give them too much recommendations

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to.

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And I like it kinda solves the

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I mean, Primal's gotten a lot of shit,

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for, like, how we were handling,

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follows in the beginning,

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like, in terms of, like,

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recommending people to follow people and and,

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you know,

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and peep you know, everyone has an opinion on on who you recommend and who you don't recommend, whatnot.

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And there's no perfect solution there.

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I do think if you join Nasr and you have no recommended follows,

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you're actually in a horrible situation. I mean, I've I've seen this firsthand. I've onboarded someone to to Amethyst, for instance,

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and they just get greeted with a blank feed, and they have no idea who to follow.

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So there's a middle ground somewhere there, and it's probably

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giving the users the ability when they invite someone to give them a a

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custom curated experience. So, I mean, the content piece is cool. Right? Give them podcasts, give them articles. But I think the follow-up piece is almost can be almost as important, if not more important.

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Because if I'm bringing a new Bitcoiner into

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the space,

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it's incredibly powerful for me to be like, these 60 people,

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like, I intimately trust, and I think they will guide you. And then the next, you know, year, two years while they're using Primal, they're able to constantly engage with those people.

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Yeah. I agree.

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You know, we started off with basically

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no follow lists, like, onboarding people and giving them no feed almost.

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So that's that's bad. And then literally troubleshooted someone today.

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One of our founders where he was like, look. Like, when I open Primal, I have an empty feed.

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And I checked, and he had zero follows. He was following zero people. So, of course, he had an empty feed because it defaulted to latest,

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and he had he wasn't following anybody. So there was nothing there. And as soon as I had him I had him follow me and a couple other people,

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the feed populated. But, yep, for a little bit there, he was just like, what's going on? Like, why is this broken?

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Yeah. And the recommended follows the way we do them now are problematic in a couple of different ways. Like, they solve that problem of empty feeds and stuff like that. So at least that's not it's not terrible.

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But the two big problems are well, number one, primal decides who are who the accounts are to follow in all these categories, and that's not ideal. Centralized.

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Yeah. And it also doesn't scale well, period. Yeah. And,

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you know, it really should be more sophisticated than that, and we're kinda working on that. You should be able to just based on interest and categories. Well, right now, it is interest based. Right? It is.

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And

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we you kinda select your interests in primal,

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and then we tell you, oh, based on your interest, we we are, you know, recommending these 261

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follows. Do you wanna see them or just go next? People go next.

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They don't even

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usually,

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like, read what we said. So so people, you know, end up in the states of why am I following these people? I never,

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I never wanted that. And that's the second problem. Right? So the first problem is primal decides who to follow, and second problem is

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people actual users

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get surprised that they're following people, and that's not what they're expecting.

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So I think as we get more competent at creating kind of high signal feeds,

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we can

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we can fine tune this experience where,

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you know, we don't need to auto follow anyone

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for for the new users. We can let them discover, you know, follow packs that are created by just about any What what is it right now? Right now, it's

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it's like guided opt in. Right? Or no?

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It's a yeah. You can say it's a guided opt in. So you when you onboard on primal currently, you have to select at least one category of people in merchant. You're like forced interest categories. Exactly. You exactly. So you have to So select Bitcoin. Just select Bitcoin. We say, here are the 65 people we recommend. Right. And we don't even show the list. We say we,

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just to not clutter the UI, we say, you know, we're going to recommend 61 followers. Do you want to see them? And then if you say yes, you can go and edit and And choose. And those and that. But

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it's still, like, it's still softening. Are just clicking through that? Yeah. People And they're like, oh, I I auto follow this. That's right. So I think what happens is people go through the onboarding process. They say, I I I'm interested in these five categories.

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Then the next screen tells them you're gonna follow 80 people. Right. They don't read that. They go next next next,

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and they get a feed, which is

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kind of latest

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posts by those accounts, which is not even a That's not a great feed. Yeah.

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But it's better than nothing.

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And They at least see activity. Yeah. There's some stuff going on. Activity begets activity. Right? It's true. You don't wanna, like, be onboarded to a ghost town. I think that's one of the weakest aspects of Monster in general. This whole,

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UX of getting onboarded and the first run user experience and the time And then they leave. And then people leave. And and and I've noticed

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it's easier to onboard someone fresh

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than someone who had bad taste in their mouth. Like, once once they have the first touch point, if that first touch point isn't a good first touch point, they're gone. Like, they'll come back in two years or something. Yeah. Yep.

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We don't get too many chances to make that first impression. Yeah.

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And that's something that needs to be fixed. And, like, people think we have an onboarding problem in Oster.

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I don't think that's the case. We have a churn problem. We have Right. There's no retention. One percent of people stay. Right.

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I,

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okay. I mean, I'd look. I'm I'm pretty excited about the, like, getting started packs.

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I think in general,

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like, if we give power users more tools

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and then see how they use them and then you iterate from there,

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it's just like a great trade off balance. It's it it it accomplishes a bunch of things. It doesn't introduce new centralization

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because you're actually just giving the power you're giving the users the tools to to to do as they please.

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Yeah.

222
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And just in general in my life, like, this was something

223
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I mean, I was just

224
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we hosted a

225
00:16:17.970 --> 00:16:20.709
major conference at Belmont University in Nashville,

226
00:16:21.649 --> 00:16:25.910
two weeks ago, and we had a nostril panel with me and Derek and Sean,

227
00:16:26.690 --> 00:16:31.750
which I put on the feed so some of you freaks might have listened to it. And one of the conversations I had,

228
00:16:32.785 --> 00:16:35.205
one of the topics we talked about was, like,

229
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children

230
00:16:37.425 --> 00:16:38.485
and social media.

231
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And because we're all parents. Yeah.

232
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Derek is a little bit ahead of me and Sean,

233
00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:54.800
But A little behind me. Yeah. A little behind you. But we're all parents. Right? And it's something I think about all the time. It's like, what is the healthy experience with social media?

234
00:16:55.500 --> 00:17:00.935
And a lot of times, I just get black people. I'm like, there's no healthy experience with social media. But I think the answer is somewhere

235
00:17:03.395 --> 00:17:06.455
it's it's it's at a place where you give parents tools

236
00:17:07.315 --> 00:17:16.029
and then, you know, let them be good parents. Yeah. Right? And and have faith that parents will practice responsibility and be good parents, but to give them the tools.

237
00:17:16.330 --> 00:17:18.830
And so as we're building out primal,

238
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my thought is,

239
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is is is to basically empower users. Give them the tools and let them take responsibility over their lives, but make those tools as powerful as possible and as as

240
00:17:33.955 --> 00:17:39.815
as granular as possible and configurable as possible so that they can really curate how they experience,

241
00:17:41.170 --> 00:17:43.670
you know, the digital global square.

242
00:17:44.930 --> 00:17:48.950
Yeah. It also helps to have, you know, product builders'

243
00:17:49.250 --> 00:17:51.750
interests aligned with those of the users,

244
00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:55.910
which is not the case in in any of the legacy media systems.

245
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So you basically have no no chance

246
00:17:59.305 --> 00:17:59.805
there.

247
00:18:00.265 --> 00:18:07.885
Like, we are cattle to be milked. You know? It's just a data surveillance plan for that model. And now with AI, it's even more so.

248
00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:09.340
And Noster

249
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:13.800
potentially gives us a way to turn that around because, we have kind of,

250
00:18:14.600 --> 00:18:18.380
payments built into the network and potentially different ways to monetize.

251
00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:22.780
As you know, Primal currently monetizes directly from the users. Right.

252
00:18:23.335 --> 00:18:24.395
We have the premium

253
00:18:24.775 --> 00:18:30.235
tier for for premium users and also the pro tier for creators and professionals.

254
00:18:30.855 --> 00:18:36.955
And the only time we ever make money is if our users are satisfied. Right. We don't sell ads. We're not Yeah.

255
00:18:38.850 --> 00:18:41.030
Surveilling users and selling that data.

256
00:18:41.650 --> 00:18:42.150
Yeah.

257
00:18:42.610 --> 00:18:43.010
I,

258
00:18:44.930 --> 00:18:46.390
okay. Let's talk about

259
00:18:47.970 --> 00:18:51.350
let's talk about the live streaming that we just added because,

260
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I mean,

261
00:18:53.294 --> 00:19:01.554
the freaks know that I'm I was very excited about it. I mean, the irony of this whole thing is we're just doing this audio only. By the way, freaks, we have we have a beautiful view,

262
00:19:01.855 --> 00:19:04.434
but we're doing an audio only non live dispatch.

263
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.860
But dispatch historically has been a live show.

264
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:15.220
And by the way, for I got the inspiration. Gigi and Pablo have an awesome podcast,

265
00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.940
that's just like them walking through the streets of Madera with a phone.

266
00:19:21.005 --> 00:19:24.304
And I think it's amazing. Like, the audio quality is kinda questionable, but,

267
00:19:25.005 --> 00:19:27.585
the content's great, and the conversations are interesting.

268
00:19:28.524 --> 00:19:33.480
So I might do this more often. Especially when I'm traveling, I'll probably do this more often. So,

269
00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:37.980
hopefully, the audio quality isn't isn't

270
00:19:40.120 --> 00:19:45.825
too horrible. But, anyway, live streaming. I'm super excited about the live streaming. I think I think we hit

271
00:19:46.385 --> 00:19:50.164
we hit Bitcoin here. I was gonna say hit gold, but I think we hit Bitcoin here.

272
00:19:51.424 --> 00:19:56.404
It feels good. It just feels right. How are you thinking about live streaming in Primal?

273
00:19:57.585 --> 00:19:59.284
It does feel good. So

274
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the the live streaming feature in Primal

275
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Apps

276
00:20:04.770 --> 00:20:06.870
was released a few weeks ago.

277
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And, of course, it's,

278
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it's based on the open spec that was created

279
00:20:11.810 --> 00:20:13.270
years ago by,

280
00:20:13.970 --> 00:20:15.190
Kieran and others,

281
00:20:17.275 --> 00:20:20.655
and was available on ZapStream for a long time.

282
00:20:21.595 --> 00:20:29.055
And it was kinda one of those magical moments in Noster. Actually, it got me a little by surprise. Like, I didn't know that so many of our users

283
00:20:29.675 --> 00:20:30.175
didn't

284
00:20:30.475 --> 00:20:39.750
either think that was possible or got surprised Right. Where we launched the player and they were like, oh, look. Monster is amazing. I can see ZapStream

285
00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:41.430
on Primal. Yeah.

286
00:20:42.370 --> 00:20:42.870
Where

287
00:20:43.395 --> 00:20:47.015
it is kind of pretty wild that that this open spec exists,

288
00:20:47.715 --> 00:20:50.695
that anyone can create a stream without permission

289
00:20:51.155 --> 00:20:53.255
and broadcast the NoStar event

290
00:20:54.035 --> 00:20:56.855
that any NoStar client can decide

291
00:20:57.280 --> 00:20:59.780
to present to their users in any way they wish.

292
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:01.940
And,

293
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:03.380
so

294
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:05.780
every anybody can create a stream,

295
00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:14.025
to the extent that they can broadcast it. Any app can pull pull it up. Any app can decide how to show that UI.

296
00:21:14.565 --> 00:21:17.225
We maybe innovated a little bit in terms of UI.

297
00:21:17.605 --> 00:21:22.505
You know, like, we just like to implement clean UIs that are made it pretty.

298
00:21:22.805 --> 00:21:25.065
Yeah. Exactly. Made it pretty. Made it work.

299
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:26.600
And,

300
00:21:27.040 --> 00:21:29.620
we wanted to definitely give a lot of,

301
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:32.500
real estate,

302
00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:55.600
to to live zaps and top zaps and so forth. It's all about the zaps. It's all about the zaps. You know, if we're talking about turning this around in terms of the way that the Internet is being monetized, well, we need to lean into stuff like this. Yeah. And like Gigi said, you know, you don't need to harvest the eyeballs of a billion people to create something great.

303
00:21:57.419 --> 00:22:02.080
I completely agree with that. And the way we do things in primal is kind of,

304
00:22:03.755 --> 00:22:08.155
we're we're trying to make that a reality to the extent that, you know, we can,

305
00:22:08.715 --> 00:22:10.335
within our user base anyway.

306
00:22:10.715 --> 00:22:13.615
And hopefully, at some point in the future, we end up,

307
00:22:14.315 --> 00:22:15.295
with a much

308
00:22:15.835 --> 00:22:17.054
more high signal

309
00:22:18.450 --> 00:22:19.590
content on Nostr.

310
00:22:20.690 --> 00:22:25.270
Like, Nostr can't really compete with the with the TikToks of the world. Right. I mean,

311
00:22:25.890 --> 00:22:27.429
theoretically, it can, but

312
00:22:27.730 --> 00:22:35.695
we're not gonna create a better TikTok than TikTok, nor should we try. It's a race to the bottom. It's a race to the bottom. Experience. Exactly. It's like

313
00:22:36.794 --> 00:22:39.135
really catering to the lowest common denominator,

314
00:22:39.835 --> 00:22:41.615
kind of plugging into your

315
00:22:42.075 --> 00:22:54.470
reptilian brains and creating slot machines for the mind is the best way to monetize attention on the Internet. And there are all kinds of problems with that that we don't even need to get into now. Everybody understands that.

316
00:22:54.850 --> 00:22:58.230
It's kind of interesting that, actually, that that topic is not controversial

317
00:22:59.255 --> 00:23:04.055
in the mainstream at all. It's relatively recent. Yeah. People are kind of looking at,

318
00:23:04.535 --> 00:23:14.315
you know, legacy social media almost in the similar kind of way that that they look at junk food. Or drugs. Or drugs or whatever. It's sort of like It's almost like a heroin addiction.

319
00:23:14.820 --> 00:23:17.320
Yeah. And it that's my design.

320
00:23:17.620 --> 00:23:20.279
People talk about, like, opioids are horrible,

321
00:23:20.820 --> 00:23:24.279
but it's it's millions of users of opioids.

322
00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.240
Like, billions of people use Facebook

323
00:23:27.715 --> 00:23:32.455
products. Like, the only thing stopping Facebook from growing is human population.

324
00:23:32.914 --> 00:23:35.894
Like, they need more babies born. They've saturated the globe,

325
00:23:36.914 --> 00:23:45.330
and addicted them to their algorithms. It's incredible how successful they've been at this. Yeah. So the only way to monetize the Internet,

326
00:23:45.870 --> 00:23:48.770
you know, since the beginning now has been advertising.

327
00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:57.410
And the best way to milk as much revenue and profits as you can is to kind of do what we said just previously with

328
00:23:58.045 --> 00:24:00.065
catering to the lowest common denominator.

329
00:24:01.005 --> 00:24:01.505
And,

330
00:24:02.205 --> 00:24:04.465
we get the situation that we get today.

331
00:24:04.925 --> 00:24:05.665
But then

332
00:24:06.445 --> 00:24:13.105
I think, like we said, you know, things might be turning around in terms of people waking up to this and,

333
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:14.460
you know, saying,

334
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:25.740
I don't wanna scroll through my doom feeds Yeah. For the same reason that I don't wanna eat junk food. You know? Right. I respect myself, so I'm I don't wanna do this. So I think in some ways,

335
00:24:26.360 --> 00:24:29.175
Nostra can provide an alternative to this.

336
00:24:29.735 --> 00:24:33.195
And I'm interested in that. So where does live streaming pop into this?

337
00:24:35.015 --> 00:24:41.355
I mean, live stream is just one content type. I think on Nostr, we will have all of the content types out there.

338
00:24:41.830 --> 00:24:44.410
Live streaming is a very interesting content type,

339
00:24:44.790 --> 00:24:46.890
and live streaming on Oster

340
00:24:47.590 --> 00:24:48.330
pretty much

341
00:24:48.870 --> 00:24:52.810
assumes that you can, you know, zap. You can send micropayments

342
00:24:53.110 --> 00:24:56.885
from your Oster client. I mean, I think one of the coolest parts is

343
00:24:58.705 --> 00:24:59.684
so so

344
00:25:00.225 --> 00:25:02.565
for better or for worse, and, like, obviously,

345
00:25:03.664 --> 00:25:04.645
I'm a streamer.

346
00:25:06.304 --> 00:25:12.740
Both rabbit hole recap and still dispatch are primarily Not today, but most most most days you're a streamer. Days a streamer.

347
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:16.340
And, also, fortunately

348
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:17.220
and

349
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.700
I, you know, I think this is one of my superpowers is, like, my,

350
00:25:23.215 --> 00:25:25.154
family doesn't rely on

351
00:25:25.534 --> 00:25:26.995
income for my streams,

352
00:25:28.414 --> 00:25:32.195
to to pay the rent and survive. Right? Yep. But a lot of people do.

353
00:25:32.815 --> 00:25:40.400
And so they're using YouTube is the big one, obviously. Rumble is is getting quite large. Then you have Twitch. You have Kik. Like, there's

354
00:25:40.780 --> 00:25:44.400
there's huge billion dollar businesses built off the back of the streamers.

355
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:46.480
They're all built on the ad model,

356
00:25:47.580 --> 00:25:53.280
and they can all deplatform you at will. Like, literally at any point and from almost all streamers,

357
00:25:53.865 --> 00:25:54.845
there's diversification

358
00:25:55.305 --> 00:26:04.765
in platforms, and a lot of them will stream to multiple platforms. But it's like one platform is their bread and butter. Like, that's their platform. Like, their Twitch streamer, like, that's their fucking platform.

359
00:26:05.385 --> 00:26:09.040
And they can get deplatformed at will. And what's cool about this

360
00:26:09.740 --> 00:26:10.240
is

361
00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:13.520
well, right now, like, Primal doesn't offer

362
00:26:14.540 --> 00:26:17.280
streaming as a service, like, on the streamer side.

363
00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:19.200
I, you know, I

364
00:26:19.545 --> 00:26:24.205
I think people should expect that that will happen in the future, but it it doesn't currently right now. But

365
00:26:24.665 --> 00:26:26.445
for the sake of this conversation,

366
00:26:27.625 --> 00:26:41.560
what's super interesting to me is you have your Nasr account. You have your your end pub. That is completely separate from Primal, the app. Right? You can generate that offline even if you want to. You can generate it in a different app. You can generate it wherever you want.

367
00:26:42.020 --> 00:26:49.215
That's attached to your social graph, so who you follow and who follows you. Completely independent of Primal, completely independent of any other app.

368
00:26:49.595 --> 00:26:52.095
And then you can choose your streaming provider,

369
00:26:53.035 --> 00:26:59.615
or you can even self host. Kieran has something called ZapStream Core that people can it's a little bit early still,

370
00:27:01.169 --> 00:27:10.150
but he's iterating and improving it. But, like, you can you can self host the streaming solution yourself and stream out to Nasr in a standardized way, or you can use something like ZapStream.

371
00:27:11.330 --> 00:27:15.270
I expect other streaming providers to pop up, including Primal.

372
00:27:16.505 --> 00:27:18.365
And so you separate the pieces.

373
00:27:18.745 --> 00:27:20.524
You're separating all the pieces. So

374
00:27:21.144 --> 00:27:24.205
if if for some reason Primal turns evil

375
00:27:24.505 --> 00:27:37.470
and decides you're no longer gonna stream with them, they can't stop your followers from following you, and they can't stop you from streaming. And and you literally have zero friction of switching to another streaming provider or self hosting yourself.

376
00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:40.910
Like, people are sleeping on that. That's incredibly,

377
00:27:41.530 --> 00:27:42.669
incredibly powerful.

378
00:27:44.294 --> 00:27:50.875
And then, of course, then you put Bitcoin payments built into it. You give users choice of how they want to view it.

379
00:27:51.495 --> 00:27:55.355
I think NasJure does a really good job of how they do video viewing.

380
00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:00.100
Like, you can literally just download any app you want that supports this.

381
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:04.420
Watch it, how you have the same exact chat. The chats aren't bifurcated.

382
00:28:04.800 --> 00:28:18.965
They're not separated. You have the same zaps. It's, like, the coolest fucking thing. Like, it to me, it blows my mind. Like, I mean, I'm, like, sitting there live, and I'm, like, it's all coming together. You know? It totally is. And this this point is kind of maybe underappreciated.

383
00:28:19.905 --> 00:28:21.120
And Nasr is

384
00:28:21.600 --> 00:28:25.059
unique in this regard. Yeah. There is no competing network

385
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:26.500
with these,

386
00:28:27.520 --> 00:28:31.620
characteristics, and these are very important kind of fundamental characteristics,

387
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.140
of self sovereign identity Yep.

388
00:28:35.674 --> 00:28:37.695
And also the ability

389
00:28:38.075 --> 00:28:41.135
to stand up any parts of the any part of the infrastructure.

390
00:28:41.755 --> 00:28:43.375
But on top of that, evidence

391
00:28:43.835 --> 00:28:44.335
that

392
00:28:45.275 --> 00:28:46.735
all different kinds of infrastructure

393
00:28:47.035 --> 00:28:54.049
are are being stood up by a bunch of different actors. It's the it's not only that this is possible, it's actually happening. Right.

394
00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:58.690
So the ecosystem around Noster is growing

395
00:29:01.149 --> 00:29:06.805
without any central planning or coordination. You can't manufacture that. No. No amount of money.

396
00:29:07.425 --> 00:29:16.645
People have are trying have tried. There are conspiracy theories that, like, Odell is manufacturing it. Like, Odell is going with the water. Like like, the water is flowing,

397
00:29:17.345 --> 00:29:19.445
and I witnessed the river be born.

398
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:25.660
And I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm going along I'm going along for the ride. Like, that that's crazy. Like,

399
00:29:26.120 --> 00:29:30.140
to me, like, I just people do not like, you can have

400
00:29:30.600 --> 00:29:32.680
you can have, like, a $100,000,000

401
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:43.375
in a Sheitcoin pre mine, and you try and manufacture this and you cannot manufacture a top down. Many such cases Yeah. And has failed every time. It's very, very interesting. You can't

402
00:29:43.915 --> 00:29:45.135
kind of pay for

403
00:29:46.155 --> 00:29:47.294
for kind of grassroots

404
00:29:48.270 --> 00:29:49.790
uprising, which is kind of what we're,

405
00:29:50.510 --> 00:29:51.730
seeing here in Oster.

406
00:29:52.030 --> 00:29:53.330
And even though, you know,

407
00:29:54.270 --> 00:29:54.990
we've been,

408
00:29:55.630 --> 00:29:59.810
doing this for a few years now and we've encountered many users and content creators,

409
00:30:00.355 --> 00:30:05.815
And it's true, you know, that beyond this initial cohort of users in Oster who are very

410
00:30:06.434 --> 00:30:07.735
aligned with these values,

411
00:30:08.515 --> 00:30:14.740
it's true that the rest of the world doesn't really care that much about self sovereignty in terms of users, but creators

412
00:30:15.280 --> 00:30:32.784
care. Right. It's their livelihood. It's their livelihood, and many of them have been burnt multiple times. They know exactly where their lines are. And even if it's not a money thing, like Yeah. For me, it's not a money thing, but it's like a time thing. Like, I'm putting my time into this, and, like, you're just gonna rug me. Yeah. You can go fuck yourself. Yeah.

413
00:30:33.965 --> 00:30:38.144
So that's very encouraging because the the creators do care about this.

414
00:30:38.684 --> 00:30:40.784
And we have, I think,

415
00:30:41.325 --> 00:30:42.450
on Oster, we have,

416
00:30:42.850 --> 00:30:45.750
something very valuable and unique to offer.

417
00:30:46.450 --> 00:30:56.470
And to the extent that we can build out the network in terms of the tools and the experience for end users and stuff like that, which is still a grind, but we're getting better at this.

418
00:30:58.635 --> 00:31:01.695
I think we're very soon gonna be at the place where they can,

419
00:31:02.715 --> 00:31:09.534
you know, shield this to their users with a straight face. You know? Come follow me here, and things are going to work

420
00:31:10.075 --> 00:31:10.895
Right. Etcetera.

421
00:31:11.360 --> 00:31:15.060
And what what some think as their kind of backup

422
00:31:16.320 --> 00:31:16.820
account,

423
00:31:17.360 --> 00:31:21.620
you know, in case they get, you know Deep platform somewhere else. Elsewhere.

424
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:22.500
I think

425
00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:26.545
what actually ends up being is their final destination

426
00:31:26.845 --> 00:31:28.865
on the Internet. Well, let's talk about sovereign.

427
00:31:29.405 --> 00:31:31.745
Let let let's talk about this idea of, like,

428
00:31:32.045 --> 00:31:34.065
the backup account because I

429
00:31:34.765 --> 00:31:36.305
have heard this many times.

430
00:31:38.090 --> 00:31:40.350
I'm not a backup time type of guy.

431
00:31:40.970 --> 00:31:44.110
I'm a I mean, you should back up and check your backups

432
00:31:44.730 --> 00:31:54.505
for, like, all your things to work. That kind of backup. Yeah. But, like, I'm, like, more, like I go all in on things. Right? You just found me in a poker game. I made my money back by going all in.

433
00:31:55.605 --> 00:32:02.745
Humble brag. I mean, to humble brag. Like, I made my money back. I didn't say I made money. I'm I, like, barely got up. But, anyway,

434
00:32:04.965 --> 00:32:15.780
I'm like, I'll I get I get it. Right? I get it. It's like, okay. Set up you know, download Primal in favorite app store. Set it up. Like, you have this backup just in case,

435
00:32:16.320 --> 00:32:20.500
you know, YouTube fucks you or Facebook fucks you or TikTok,

436
00:32:20.800 --> 00:32:21.300
whatever.

437
00:32:24.275 --> 00:32:32.535
And you have it, and you can rely on it. And no matter what, that's the source of truth. And, like, that's true. All of that is true. It's it's factually correct,

438
00:32:33.955 --> 00:32:35.735
but I'm offended by the

439
00:32:36.600 --> 00:32:39.500
by the narrative. I'm offended by the narrative because

440
00:32:40.360 --> 00:32:41.660
it feels like,

441
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:47.740
it feels like Noster's the mistress.

442
00:32:48.645 --> 00:32:52.345
You know? It feels like you have a relationship you have a relationship with YouTube,

443
00:32:52.965 --> 00:32:58.745
and you have kids with YouTube. And, like, there's a lot of things going well over there, but you still love Noster.

444
00:32:59.285 --> 00:33:13.460
You know? You still love Noster, but unless it's convenient for you, you're not gonna come to it. So I'm curious, like, how, like, how do you think about it? Because that's how I think about it, and it it it kinda grinds me. I'm also offended by it. And and the thing is,

445
00:33:15.035 --> 00:33:15.855
it can be

446
00:33:16.315 --> 00:33:26.895
presented that way to content creators who are new to this. And that's why I said it's not really it it can start as kinda being your backup as a content creator, but what it actually is

447
00:33:27.360 --> 00:33:30.980
is your final destination on the Internet. I like that. Yeah.

448
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.500
Or alternative, like, the source of truth. Yeah.

449
00:33:35.120 --> 00:33:37.460
Like, instead of the backup, it's the first. Yeah.

450
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.935
Like, you can still post to Twitter, Twitch, wherever. Yeah.

451
00:33:42.055 --> 00:33:56.395
But the source of truth, the thing that's actually signed that can't be taken away from you is Noster. Yes. And then you cross post it everywhere else. But if I wanna make sure it's not a deep fake, I'm gonna actually go and check Noster. I wanna make sure that they're not trying to stop you from posting something. I'm gonna go check Noster.

452
00:33:56.860 --> 00:34:01.360
Yeah. And I think that is something that more and more creators,

453
00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:02.639
resonate with.

454
00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:08.800
We just need to build better tools

455
00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:13.675
and keep onboarding. Yeah. I mean, I think the number one thing was, like, having a stable app.

456
00:34:14.055 --> 00:34:20.795
And Yeah. Humbly, like, we're just getting there. Totally. Like, it's it was just a grind. I still think it's

457
00:34:21.335 --> 00:34:25.175
janky. I'm It's a little bit janky. I'm referring to primal to be,

458
00:34:26.190 --> 00:34:28.609
specific, but it's better than it's been,

459
00:34:29.790 --> 00:34:31.089
you know, previously.

460
00:34:31.390 --> 00:34:36.369
Massive progress. Yeah. And you you don't need to squint to see, you know,

461
00:34:36.750 --> 00:34:38.770
before long, we'll match and exceed,

462
00:34:39.265 --> 00:34:40.405
the top quality

463
00:34:40.865 --> 00:34:45.025
consumer reps. Yeah. We have to exceed. Yeah. It can't just be

464
00:34:47.185 --> 00:34:49.445
there should be no trade offs on UX.

465
00:34:50.785 --> 00:34:51.185
I,

466
00:34:52.610 --> 00:34:55.270
so the other topic I wanted to cover, is,

467
00:34:56.050 --> 00:34:56.550
AI,

468
00:34:58.850 --> 00:35:00.790
and I wanna cover it from two sides.

469
00:35:02.930 --> 00:35:04.150
The first is

470
00:35:05.925 --> 00:35:07.465
AI slop and deep fakes.

471
00:35:08.725 --> 00:35:14.345
And then the second piece is UX and AI and how users experience primal.

472
00:35:15.525 --> 00:35:16.185
I mean

473
00:35:16.885 --> 00:35:18.185
and I'll I'll use

474
00:35:19.605 --> 00:35:21.145
the freaks know that I

475
00:35:22.680 --> 00:35:26.060
basically didn't use any other social media except for

476
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:28.220
Twitter and then x,

477
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:33.900
for the last ten plus years. Like, I deleted my Facebook, deleted my LinkedIn, never had a TikTok,

478
00:35:37.194 --> 00:35:38.335
Deleted my Telegram.

479
00:35:38.635 --> 00:35:40.815
Big deleter. I'm a big deleter over here, guys.

480
00:35:44.315 --> 00:35:47.934
And X is doing a really Elon's doing a really good job

481
00:35:48.795 --> 00:35:50.015
of mixing AI

482
00:35:50.910 --> 00:35:52.930
with Grok into the user experience.

483
00:35:53.710 --> 00:35:54.450
He's obviously

484
00:35:54.750 --> 00:36:00.290
like, there's no privacy involved. He's surveilling the fuck out of you. He's still selling ads, using your data.

485
00:36:01.069 --> 00:36:03.329
There's a bunch of bad aspects to it.

486
00:36:03.665 --> 00:36:10.885
But from where you know what happens, behind the scenes, and all of this is open source. And, also, it's forever too. Like like, if you

487
00:36:11.585 --> 00:36:13.765
there was one of our founders here,

488
00:36:14.065 --> 00:36:18.085
I think, like, nailed it on the head. It's like, you're, like, uploading your soul Mhmm.

489
00:36:18.570 --> 00:36:20.750
To these people's proprietary clouds,

490
00:36:21.610 --> 00:36:26.670
and then, like, you don't know what they're gonna use it for in ten years. Right? Like, there's no agency there.

491
00:36:27.370 --> 00:36:28.590
But that being said,

492
00:36:29.290 --> 00:36:31.365
the UX of x is, like,

493
00:36:31.765 --> 00:36:32.265
intimately

494
00:36:33.845 --> 00:36:34.345
interconnected

495
00:36:34.645 --> 00:36:35.945
with Grok now.

496
00:36:38.645 --> 00:36:40.425
And then the other piece is

497
00:36:40.885 --> 00:36:45.750
there's a ton of AI slop on the platform, and it's just getting started. Like, it's gonna get way worse. Yep.

498
00:36:46.550 --> 00:36:52.650
And there's gonna be tons of deep fakes. There's gonna be so many fucking deep fakes. So, I mean, how do you think about

499
00:36:53.750 --> 00:36:58.810
AI and primal going forward on both those facets? And, I mean, you can answer in your order or whatever.

500
00:36:59.744 --> 00:37:04.964
Well, first of all, I agree that, they're they build great UX Yeah. On x,

501
00:37:06.865 --> 00:37:07.924
around these capabilities,

502
00:37:08.464 --> 00:37:11.125
and we need something like that on Oster.

503
00:37:12.090 --> 00:37:16.190
And on Oster, we have the opportunity to provide an open alternative

504
00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:18.830
to their kind of closed everything app.

505
00:37:20.330 --> 00:37:20.830
So

506
00:37:21.130 --> 00:37:22.590
on Oster, we have the

507
00:37:23.290 --> 00:37:24.030
the opportunity

508
00:37:24.330 --> 00:37:24.830
to

509
00:37:26.005 --> 00:37:27.385
deploy open source models

510
00:37:28.325 --> 00:37:32.905
that are working on open data that's available on the public relay

511
00:37:33.365 --> 00:37:33.865
network.

512
00:37:36.965 --> 00:37:38.105
But, yeah, those capabilities

513
00:37:38.405 --> 00:37:39.145
are necessary.

514
00:37:40.310 --> 00:37:44.250
They're not on on our immediate road map, but this is something we wanna get into

515
00:37:44.710 --> 00:37:46.090
at some point in the future.

516
00:37:47.350 --> 00:37:49.770
I think they're useful tools that

517
00:37:50.070 --> 00:37:51.130
users rightfully

518
00:37:51.590 --> 00:37:52.090
expect.

519
00:37:53.705 --> 00:37:54.205
And,

520
00:37:55.865 --> 00:37:59.085
you know, if we're building free FreedomTech, I think we can

521
00:37:59.625 --> 00:38:00.845
provide a credible

522
00:38:01.625 --> 00:38:02.125
open

523
00:38:02.505 --> 00:38:04.845
alternative to all of these closed systems.

524
00:38:06.700 --> 00:38:13.120
The open source models are getting better and better, and they they still lag the top, you know, closed systems.

525
00:38:13.820 --> 00:38:16.160
It remains to be seen how that plays out.

526
00:38:16.620 --> 00:38:17.200
You know,

527
00:38:18.245 --> 00:38:27.945
there are new updates every few weeks, you know, and the the I think it probably gets closer. I think it gets that's what I think. But I see how much Because there's big gains that are happening.

528
00:38:28.325 --> 00:38:28.825
Right?

529
00:38:29.445 --> 00:38:38.210
I see a lot of GPU power being deployed by the top players, and we just don't know. Well, that's a different thing between open models versus proprietary models because

530
00:38:38.910 --> 00:38:41.490
there are open models that are quite GPU intensive,

531
00:38:42.030 --> 00:38:54.945
and then you need someone to actually host the model and run the GPUs. Right? And then there's ones that are less GPU intensive, and you can self host them, and those are significantly worse. Yeah. Right? But the ones that are

532
00:38:55.405 --> 00:38:57.585
GPU like like, compute intensive

533
00:38:58.920 --> 00:38:59.660
but open,

534
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:06.700
well, it'll probably get closer because the the way I'm thinking about it is kind of like ASIC development to Bitcoin.

535
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:12.859
But we're talking about software, not hardware, but it, like, it'll plateau at a point. Like, they're making massive gains,

536
00:39:13.265 --> 00:39:19.765
like GROC two to GROC three to GROC four or whatever chat g p chat GPT has, like, the worst naming scheme. But whatever their naming scheme is,

537
00:39:20.865 --> 00:39:22.165
has massive improvements.

538
00:39:23.025 --> 00:39:29.410
And so the open ones are naturally lagging behind. Yep. But when those improvements become more incremental,

539
00:39:29.790 --> 00:39:36.690
right, like the difference between the iPhone 16 and the iPhone 17 is way different than the iPhone nine to 10 or whatever. I don't know.

540
00:39:37.309 --> 00:39:38.210
Like, I think

541
00:39:38.915 --> 00:39:41.895
I think we get closer, and it doesn't have to

542
00:39:42.915 --> 00:39:43.815
be the best.

543
00:39:44.515 --> 00:39:46.535
Right? Like, when we were talking about the follows,

544
00:39:48.035 --> 00:39:52.615
like, you could I could totally imagine like, we're close relatively close for

545
00:39:52.994 --> 00:39:54.375
efficient open models

546
00:39:55.140 --> 00:39:55.640
to

547
00:39:56.339 --> 00:39:56.839
parse

548
00:39:57.700 --> 00:40:02.119
the the primal Nostra dataset, like all Nostra notes ever,

549
00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:04.520
you know, in the caching server from

550
00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:07.215
certain users or whatever, and then be like,

551
00:40:07.775 --> 00:40:18.915
you know, just give me, like, a prompt. Like, what are you interested in? And just make you a recommended follow list. Right? Yes. Stuff like that. All kinds of things that can be done with this. Yeah. I mean, Elon announced,

552
00:40:19.695 --> 00:40:20.195
AI

553
00:40:20.680 --> 00:40:23.320
prompt based feeds Yeah. Which,

554
00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:28.620
is The right direction. I think that makes sense. Right? To me. Let's see how how they work. And,

555
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:30.620
and, you know, like,

556
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:35.020
there's some great work being done there. Definitely. Right. Like, you just show me this content.

557
00:40:35.555 --> 00:40:38.295
We just need to like I said, the opportunity

558
00:40:38.595 --> 00:40:39.395
here is

559
00:40:39.875 --> 00:40:44.295
and the long term opportunity, I think, is to provide an open alternative to all of this

560
00:40:44.755 --> 00:40:46.535
dystopia tech base. Right.

561
00:40:47.795 --> 00:40:49.800
And to do it in a way that's

562
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:50.780
where

563
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:52.060
the creator's

564
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:52.860
interests

565
00:40:53.160 --> 00:40:55.020
are aligned with those of their users.

566
00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:59.420
So that's kind of how we're, you know, positioning Primal. Yeah.

567
00:41:00.520 --> 00:41:01.020
And

568
00:41:02.454 --> 00:41:04.954
I'm kinda excited for that battle.

569
00:41:05.255 --> 00:41:09.595
So what are you thinking about that all makes sense to me. What are you thinking about, like, deep fakes

570
00:41:11.255 --> 00:41:11.755
and

571
00:41:12.214 --> 00:41:13.115
slot bots?

572
00:41:14.970 --> 00:41:20.510
The AI slot right now is relatively easy to spot. Yeah. It's not going to be. That's right.

573
00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:24.750
I mean, I haven't thought deeply about this, honestly.

574
00:41:25.130 --> 00:41:29.845
For sure, we're gonna very quickly get to the point where it's much harder to

575
00:41:30.145 --> 00:41:30.645
spot.

576
00:41:32.545 --> 00:41:34.405
I think in that context, authenticity,

577
00:41:34.785 --> 00:41:35.525
like verifiable

578
00:41:35.825 --> 00:41:37.045
authenticity becomes

579
00:41:37.345 --> 00:41:38.165
more important.

580
00:41:39.130 --> 00:41:39.630
So

581
00:41:39.930 --> 00:41:45.710
content that's actually signed by the, you know, by the user that I follow that's verifiable

582
00:41:46.010 --> 00:41:47.470
actually becomes more valuable.

583
00:41:50.330 --> 00:41:51.230
Beyond that,

584
00:41:52.125 --> 00:41:52.785
I mean

585
00:41:53.325 --> 00:41:55.425
I think that's sneaky one of the most

586
00:41:55.885 --> 00:42:00.465
powerful parts of Nostra. Yeah. Like, everyone wants to talk about censorship resistance, permissionlessness.

587
00:42:01.645 --> 00:42:02.385
The verifiability

588
00:42:03.085 --> 00:42:03.585
Yeah.

589
00:42:04.700 --> 00:42:06.079
Is gonna become a big

590
00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:09.119
I think it's gonna become a big thing. And I think the incentives

591
00:42:10.859 --> 00:42:12.940
the way the incentive's set up, it's

592
00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:14.880
it'd be better for humanity

593
00:42:15.180 --> 00:42:16.160
if big tech

594
00:42:16.635 --> 00:42:21.695
follows along with it and tries to copy it, but I think it's I think it's actually quite unlikely.

595
00:42:21.995 --> 00:42:25.855
Like, I think it's need to offer a credible alternative that does that,

596
00:42:26.315 --> 00:42:26.815
and,

597
00:42:28.475 --> 00:42:34.010
some subset of creators will gravitate towards that. Some subset of users will.

598
00:42:34.550 --> 00:42:36.090
Those who like to live free.

599
00:42:37.670 --> 00:42:38.570
And, you know,

600
00:42:39.990 --> 00:42:45.450
we'll see it remains to be seen how much gravity we can generate around this network. I'm optimistic.

601
00:42:47.125 --> 00:42:49.785
In any case, it will be the type of the

602
00:42:50.165 --> 00:42:57.625
the type of people that I wanna hang out with. That's true. The rider dies. I I mean, like, you think about it. It's like right now, today, it's like,

603
00:42:58.485 --> 00:42:59.225
our HR

604
00:42:59.790 --> 00:43:04.050
dispatch is posted to YouTube podcast feeds x

605
00:43:04.670 --> 00:43:05.170
Noster.

606
00:43:06.030 --> 00:43:10.130
The only place you know that it hasn't been altered in the middle

607
00:43:11.310 --> 00:43:11.810
by

608
00:43:12.555 --> 00:43:15.214
the the aforementioned parties like YouTube.

609
00:43:18.234 --> 00:43:21.694
I mean, we we have two different hosts, but, like, the podcast host,

610
00:43:22.714 --> 00:43:24.575
of our RSS feeds,

611
00:43:25.275 --> 00:43:28.015
x. Like, the only place you know it hasn't been altered

612
00:43:28.670 --> 00:43:34.370
is if you view it in a Nasr app Yeah. That is is validating signatures and making sure

613
00:43:34.670 --> 00:43:37.090
that this is hashed and signed and unchanged.

614
00:43:37.390 --> 00:43:37.890
Yeah.

615
00:43:38.670 --> 00:43:42.930
And that's gonna I mean, that is super important to me because, like, at the end of the day,

616
00:43:44.115 --> 00:43:46.775
I have a lot of shitty opinions. You might not agree with them,

617
00:43:47.315 --> 00:43:48.855
but they're my shitty opinions.

618
00:43:49.155 --> 00:43:50.055
Like, I don't

619
00:43:50.675 --> 00:44:05.359
you should be disagreeing with my actual views. You shouldn't be disagreeing with deepfakes of me because you can make me say whatever the fuck you wanna make me say with deepfakes. Like, there's enough there's a there's enough content out there that you you you have that ability today.

620
00:44:06.460 --> 00:44:08.480
And people are sleeping on this, and I think

621
00:44:09.020 --> 00:44:12.000
I think it will be a big driver of content creators because

622
00:44:13.145 --> 00:44:20.605
I think it naturally drives you crazy. Like, it's from a point of this is my time commitment, and this is my connection with other people.

623
00:44:21.224 --> 00:44:23.565
And you're stepping in the middle of it, and

624
00:44:24.185 --> 00:44:25.610
you're breaking it. Right?

625
00:44:26.790 --> 00:44:33.130
You're you're you're it's a violation. You're you're violating my trust with people I'm trying to connect with.

626
00:44:34.870 --> 00:44:38.890
I agree with all of that. And to get down to the fundamentals,

627
00:44:39.945 --> 00:44:48.765
If we are to escape this kind of digital dystopia, we need two elements. We need everyone to hold their keys and sign their contact with their keys. Yep. And we need

628
00:44:50.665 --> 00:44:53.485
different actors to stand up every part of the infrastructure.

629
00:44:55.590 --> 00:44:59.690
Both of those things need to be kind of conditions need to be met for

630
00:45:00.150 --> 00:45:01.930
a resilient network to exist.

631
00:45:02.790 --> 00:45:09.290
And we only see evidence of this happening in Auster. Early days, but Auster has no competitors in this regard.

632
00:45:09.975 --> 00:45:15.435
There are some networks out there where people hold their own keys. Not too many. I think Farcaster is the only one, actually.

633
00:45:16.215 --> 00:45:19.915
So good. There's probably a couple other ones that we just aren't aware of. Probably.

634
00:45:21.495 --> 00:45:34.910
Means they're too small. Or, like, base Coinbase. I think they have keys. Right? Yeah. That's kind of part of the same network. Is it a forecaster? I'm not even sure, to be quite honest with you. But there is no idea. Forecasters on Ethereum and bases

635
00:45:36.250 --> 00:45:37.070
on Coinbase's

636
00:45:37.530 --> 00:45:40.705
Ethereum layer two base. But, anyway, it doesn't work. Doing.

637
00:45:42.445 --> 00:45:50.225
So my point is even in the cases where people hold their keys in other networks, there's zero evidence that anyone's standing up any infrastructure.

638
00:45:50.525 --> 00:45:51.025
Right.

639
00:45:51.740 --> 00:45:53.440
That's only happening on Austin.

640
00:45:53.900 --> 00:45:54.400
And

641
00:45:56.380 --> 00:45:59.760
both of those conditions need to be met for a network to be

642
00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:01.520
resilient and sovereign.

643
00:46:01.900 --> 00:46:05.359
Okay. One more topic, and then we're gonna get back to our people.

644
00:46:08.455 --> 00:46:10.155
You you mentioned holding keys.

645
00:46:10.935 --> 00:46:13.915
So constantly first of all, we're Bitcoiners first.

646
00:46:15.175 --> 00:46:18.955
That's how we met. That's been my life for way too long,

647
00:46:20.055 --> 00:46:21.755
both a good way and a bad way.

648
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:23.960
Holding keys is hard for people,

649
00:46:24.820 --> 00:46:26.520
and people freak out about

650
00:46:27.380 --> 00:46:29.080
my nostril key gets compromised,

651
00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:33.000
and then my social identity is compromised.

652
00:46:34.580 --> 00:46:36.760
Obviously, it's still very early days.

653
00:46:37.065 --> 00:46:40.605
We're not, like, promising things. But what like, how do you think about

654
00:46:42.425 --> 00:46:50.204
that problem? How do we mitigate that? There's it's it's a problem that ultimately comes down to personal responsibility, so there's no, quote, unquote, solution.

655
00:46:50.505 --> 00:46:52.204
But how do we solve that problem?

656
00:46:53.430 --> 00:46:54.890
So I'd say two things.

657
00:46:57.030 --> 00:46:58.890
So this whole scenario

658
00:47:00.150 --> 00:47:02.890
and the feature, the ability to do key rotation

659
00:47:03.270 --> 00:47:07.290
and kinda recover your, Nostra identity in these situations,

660
00:47:07.605 --> 00:47:09.465
That's something that needs to be still

661
00:47:09.845 --> 00:47:15.465
figured out on Nostra, and I'm very optimistic that we can figure out figure this out.

662
00:47:16.325 --> 00:47:18.105
But on the other hand, it's kind

663
00:47:18.725 --> 00:47:21.865
of important for people to understand the

664
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:25.420
the value of holding your key and

665
00:47:25.720 --> 00:47:26.300
the repercussions

666
00:47:27.240 --> 00:47:34.780
of losing it that, you know, it's not a simple event when you lose a key. Let's say, when some money is on the line, when you're securing your,

667
00:47:35.240 --> 00:47:35.740
Bitcoin,

668
00:47:37.404 --> 00:47:38.065
I think

669
00:47:39.885 --> 00:47:42.145
for the society to move in this direction,

670
00:47:42.525 --> 00:47:44.944
there needs to be an increased awareness

671
00:47:45.565 --> 00:47:47.105
of the importance of,

672
00:47:47.565 --> 00:47:48.540
holding your keys.

673
00:47:49.020 --> 00:47:50.480
And I can already

674
00:47:51.260 --> 00:47:56.800
see or hear many people saying, ah, that's never gonna happen and blah blah blah. I think it's gonna happen,

675
00:47:57.100 --> 00:48:05.625
and I think it's not that hard. And I've heard you make the analogy of, you know, if you can drive a car, you can you have the ability to,

676
00:48:06.085 --> 00:48:07.525
you know, self host

677
00:48:08.085 --> 00:48:09.545
self custody Bitcoin

678
00:48:09.845 --> 00:48:12.025
and your own online identity.

679
00:48:12.484 --> 00:48:14.425
I think it's a great analogy because,

680
00:48:16.250 --> 00:48:19.230
it's a powerful technology that you're using

681
00:48:19.770 --> 00:48:22.109
that if used incorrectly

682
00:48:23.450 --> 00:48:25.710
can have very extreme consequences,

683
00:48:26.010 --> 00:48:28.030
let's say, with car driving.

684
00:48:29.175 --> 00:48:30.795
But it's important enough

685
00:48:31.495 --> 00:48:32.555
that most people,

686
00:48:33.255 --> 00:48:36.555
have figured this out and are able to do it without any issues. So,

687
00:48:39.255 --> 00:48:49.730
especially when we kind of build slightly better tools to to enable this. I don't think the solution is to hide this from the user, by the way. Right. I'm not I'm not into this.

688
00:48:50.190 --> 00:48:51.570
People need to understand,

689
00:48:53.470 --> 00:48:57.410
what the keys are and why they're holding them, and I don't think that's

690
00:48:58.315 --> 00:48:59.215
hard to understand.

691
00:49:01.515 --> 00:49:12.335
And you can kind of see this optimistic view of the future where people are self sovereign, both in terms of their own identity and speech as well as their wealth and transactions.

692
00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:13.750
And

693
00:49:14.210 --> 00:49:16.869
maybe there isn't some sort of future where

694
00:49:17.329 --> 00:49:18.390
only the minority

695
00:49:18.690 --> 00:49:20.950
of sovereign individuals do this.

696
00:49:21.650 --> 00:49:27.349
Fine. I mean, we are here to build the tools, and people can decide to use them if they want to.

697
00:49:28.395 --> 00:49:32.415
Yeah. I mean, I think what people don't first of all, I think we can be creative

698
00:49:32.875 --> 00:49:34.895
about different tools we can give users

699
00:49:35.195 --> 00:49:36.575
to have different trust models.

700
00:49:38.555 --> 00:49:40.895
I think there's probably something there

701
00:49:42.820 --> 00:49:44.200
with webs of trust.

702
00:49:44.900 --> 00:49:45.880
I really think,

703
00:49:47.380 --> 00:49:53.000
like, you you could even imagine, like, type in, like, a Noster multisig type of scenario

704
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:53.960
Yeah.

705
00:49:55.905 --> 00:50:04.165
Where where you have users that you trust or maybe you're an organization and it's it's multiple people who are holding, you know, fragments of a key or whatnot.

706
00:50:05.025 --> 00:50:06.405
So there's something there.

707
00:50:07.185 --> 00:50:10.485
And then the other piece that I would just add to people is, like,

708
00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:12.680
if if your solution

709
00:50:13.060 --> 00:50:15.240
is that, like, a centralized tech company

710
00:50:15.620 --> 00:50:17.560
is giving you a username and password,

711
00:50:18.420 --> 00:50:25.800
like, we can already do this on Nostr today. Like, there might pass I I don't actually I do not think this is the best path for primal,

712
00:50:26.175 --> 00:50:28.195
but other people may do this,

713
00:50:28.495 --> 00:50:35.875
is, like, they could literally just custody your NSEC for you, your private key for you, and give you the typical username password flow.

714
00:50:36.335 --> 00:50:46.059
And if you get your account compromised or locked out or you lose your password or whatever, then you contact support just like you contact x support. Like, the same exact setup that x is currently using,

715
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:52.540
you can do on Nostr today in a very straightforward centralized infrastructure. I don't think that's the solution,

716
00:50:53.160 --> 00:50:53.660
but

717
00:50:54.234 --> 00:50:58.575
any most people that are arguing that the current state of Nasr where you have

718
00:50:58.954 --> 00:51:01.935
these single private keys that are controlling everything,

719
00:51:02.635 --> 00:51:10.390
use that as the counterargument where they're like, oh, like, username password with with Twitter or Facebook or whatever is better. Like, you we can literally do that today.

720
00:51:10.930 --> 00:51:14.470
So that's to me is like a it's a apples and orange bullshit argument.

721
00:51:15.650 --> 00:51:25.845
But I I think I think we can provide solutions to people. I think there'll be interesting hardware things, like and it depends on what the user is. Like, if you are just an average user,

722
00:51:26.305 --> 00:51:28.805
like, having it on the secure element of your phone

723
00:51:29.185 --> 00:51:37.380
backed up into iCloud is probably a great trade off model. Like, Apple is not gonna try and compromise you. The NSA is not in your threat model.

724
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:44.500
Everything will be fine. It'll actually probably work more seamlessly than big tech right now. But if you are,

725
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:45.540
you know,

726
00:51:46.755 --> 00:51:48.214
the president of a country,

727
00:51:48.914 --> 00:52:01.575
you know, like, maybe you have a hardware might be a little higher. Yeah. You have a hardware solution. Yes. You know? You you have a hardware solution where maybe you have multiple keys and and and there needs to be a threshold signature to to make it happen,

728
00:52:02.510 --> 00:52:04.130
and everything is kept offline,

729
00:52:04.430 --> 00:52:13.890
and it's a whole forty five minute process to send a post because you're the fucking president of a country, and that's that's what the stakes are. Right? That that that would that's what matters.

730
00:52:14.275 --> 00:52:24.935
And the cool part is that's all completely separate from the protocol. Like, we don't need to have any consensus on any of that. These can all be tools that are built right on top. Right? That's a great point. I mean, the custodial,

731
00:52:26.270 --> 00:52:31.170
scenario was supported from day one. You might have implemented that easily, and there have been,

732
00:52:33.230 --> 00:52:34.930
clients who have done that. Right.

733
00:52:36.270 --> 00:52:43.165
So it's all upside from there. You know, you can, you know, have people holding their keys, and then you can have

734
00:52:44.025 --> 00:52:46.445
multisig setups, and you have have hardware,

735
00:52:47.225 --> 00:52:47.725
involved.

736
00:52:48.185 --> 00:52:51.485
All of this is on the table, and it can be built.

737
00:52:52.105 --> 00:52:52.605
Yeah.

738
00:52:53.305 --> 00:52:58.510
And, specifically, like, the multisig piece is interesting to any of you freaks that are listening or developers.

739
00:52:59.369 --> 00:53:01.150
Like, check out the Froster project.

740
00:53:03.530 --> 00:53:06.190
They're they're working on they're using Frost,

741
00:53:06.810 --> 00:53:08.350
to do multisig on.

742
00:53:09.690 --> 00:53:16.345
It's quite compelling, really interesting to me. I I think there's different things that can be done there to make it very user friendly as

743
00:53:16.725 --> 00:53:19.145
well. Anyway, Millian, this is a great shot.

744
00:53:19.845 --> 00:53:21.945
I'm glad we did it. Hopefully, the freaks

745
00:53:22.645 --> 00:53:24.905
find it helpful. Please give me your feedback.

746
00:53:26.460 --> 00:53:29.200
If I get no feedback, I'm gonna do more things like this.

747
00:53:29.500 --> 00:53:31.840
So we're gonna default to yes.

748
00:53:32.860 --> 00:53:35.280
Emilio, final thoughts before we get back to everybody.

749
00:53:36.620 --> 00:53:37.120
Oh,

750
00:53:37.500 --> 00:53:44.585
final thoughts. Yeah. Keep holding your keys. Keep, posting those notes. Keep onboarding your friends and family. Help us grow the network.

751
00:53:45.365 --> 00:53:49.785
And on our side, we're gonna keep, building the tools. That is a guarantee.

752
00:53:50.724 --> 00:53:56.380
I love it. Freaks, if you haven't already, download Primal in your favorite app store or go to primal.net.

753
00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:58.460
We'd love to have you,

754
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:00.780
and any feedback is appreciated.

755
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:03.820
It's a grind. It's a long grind.

756
00:54:04.200 --> 00:54:06.859
But Milian and his team are best in the business and

757
00:54:07.475 --> 00:54:08.375
mission focused.

758
00:54:09.475 --> 00:54:11.975
Thanks for having me. Cheers, sir. Fun chat.

759
00:54:12.275 --> 00:54:14.055
Please stay humble, Stack Sats.