CD176: EGGE - NPUB CASH AND CASHU

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NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 09/05/2025 21:22:43
Duration: 5578.347
Channels: 1

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Cars now steer themselves

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through our cities.

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Robots

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hold steady hands in the operating room,

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and drones are redefining the future of war.

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Innovations

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of first generation

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humanoids,

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factory automation,

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and autonomous

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vehicles

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have surged from private sector investment.

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Every one of these advancements

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is powered by AI.

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The robots are here.

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Our future is no longer

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science fiction.

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Happy Bitcoin Friday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another civil dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show

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focused on actionable Bitcoin and freedom tech discussion.

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That intro clip was none other than our first lady, Melania Trump, talking about the robots being here. I could not find a

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I could not find a Bitcoin clip I wanted to use for this week, so you got her instead.

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I hope

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you enjoyed it.

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As always, dispatch is funded by our audience with Zaps, with Sats, Bitcoin donations. We have no ads, no sponsors.

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You can find all links to the show at silldispatch.com.

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The easiest way to support the show is through zaps on Noster.

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Our largest zaps

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last week were Trazyn,

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rider die freak Trazyn, t r a z y n, saying another amazing rip.

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54,000

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sats sent. Thank you.

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And rider die freak map 21, great rip, 10,000 sats. And you can also support the show through podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcast. Largest app over there was BTC shelling point with 21,000 sats.

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Said moving the needle. Excited to see this in my hands.

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Since last week

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at Primal, we have launched

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live streaming support.

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So now you can watch and interact

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with the show,

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through the Primal app on web, Android, and iPhone.

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On iPhone, we have a small glitch where you can only chat

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if you zap.

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So

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even if you just include one set, you can add a comment in there. We do have an update in the works, but it's gotta go through the Apple Store. So,

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hopefully, that'll be out soon. It wasn't intentional. Although, I'm kinda liking the idea of

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SATs for chat.

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So we might make that a setting where streamers can choose

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how many sats are required

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to chat in the live chat. But, anyway, I see super fat arrow here, zapped 21,000

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sats, freedom tech for the win. And by the way, guys, just real quick on the Nostril live streaming,

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it's an open protocol. It's an open standard.

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If you stream you can still view the stream in ZapStream.

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Any streams that are started in ZapStream, you can also view in Primal apps,

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any other app that supports it like Nasir or Amethyst,

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or Nostrudl.

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All these apps support the streams. You can also self host your own streaming server and ZapStream Primal and all these other pick it up. It's really, really cool. I think we're, like, on the early stages of of coming after Twitch and x and YouTube.

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I'm really excited. But, anyway,

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freaks, we have a great show today.

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We have Eggie here,

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maintainer, creator of npub.cash,

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a tool that I absolutely love working in the Cashew ecosystem. How's it going, sir? Welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for having me. I'm good.

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Did you see we got this guy must be an iOS free key.

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He just zapped us one set. Really, thank you for moving the needle and really supporting the show. It keeps me coming back

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week after week.

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I wanna start we can talk about a bunch of different things.

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How he's he's not even an iOS freak. He can chat without sending a a sat. So thank you. Thank you for sending the sat.

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I wanna start with your project mpub.cache. I mean, I think it's awesome.

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I'm a user.

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You can zap me at odell@mpub.cache.

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What is it?

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Why should people care?

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Let's start high level.

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Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So, end up with cache.

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The idea basically is a lightning address for everyone,

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based on on Nasr and Cashew.

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So

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if you ever, like, had a different lightning address, you know, that it's like you need a web service of some sorts to, like, host it. Right? Usually, that is done via custodian. That's probably where most people get their lightning addresses.

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You can do it yourself, but you've require, like, an l l n URL server.

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It's it's a bit of a headache to set up with a personal, like, private note on Tor and stuff.

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So

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when I started working on Cashew,

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the thing that I love the most and also on Asterisk. The thing that I love the most about these two protocols is, like, everything is public infrastructure.

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Right? You don't you don't need to do your own stuff. You can do your own stuff. Right? But, like, with relays out there with that don't require, like, you to set up something yourself, you could just communicate with them. And cache has the means you can just communicate with them without having to set up something yourself.

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You can use private, public infrastructure to just build things. So I was like, okay. Maybe we can build a lightning address on that.

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And turns out we were able to do that. So that's basically in public cache. It's a lightning address that does not require sign up. It just is based on your Anausa identity

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that uses, Anausa public keys and private keys for authentication.

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And if you have an NOSA account, you have an npop.cache lightning address because it's your npop at npop.cache,

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is is already your lightning address. So if I know your n pop, I can I can zap you, and you can redeem the sets later on?

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Love it. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the coolest part is,

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that basically anyone who has a nonster NPUB

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immediately has a corresponding

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Lightning address with zero setup.

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Like, they can you can like, they can figure that part out later.

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If if you just zap them there,

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they will eventually be able to go and get the SATs and redeem the SATs.

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I think it makes it way easier. I mean, I think anyone

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that's been active in the Nasr ecosystem

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has seen the pain point that is

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how do I get my first Zaps. Right? Like, where do the first Zaps come from?

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Yeah. That's also kind of the origin story of m dot dot cache a bit. So, before we got started building m dot dot cache as a standalone thing, I was still working on an also client.

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It it was called Current.

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It was early days.

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So we built Current,

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as a

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off custodial thing. So, basically, there was a, inbuilt lightning wallet that was hosted by us,

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that was custodial. And

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because we we always felt like, okay. If you if you onboard new people to Nasr, that was always the goal of of the project to, like, onboard

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people from other platforms to get them over to Nasr.

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And Zaps are one of the main reasons to do that because Zaps are just amazing. But then you need to provide some, like, simple

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interface to, like even if people don't understand what Bitcoin is, right, they still should be able to, like, kinda use it without having to set up a lot of stuff. So our first solution to this was custodial.

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But that was was a very bad solution, obviously. First of all, because it's not the thing that we want to do, and second of all, because it's just such a headache going through Apple. For example, when you build a native app and you have, like, a Custody wallet in there, Apple's, like, not not gonna be happy about that. Oh, it's, like, very difficult to get Apple happy.

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So that was when we thought, okay. Maybe we can build a non custodial lightning wallet, with LDK, other stuff in in our, in our native in our native app. But then you get the challenge. Well, how do you do the lightning address? Because that's, again, like, one of the key key things,

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that that is required on also to have the most fun. Right? You need the lighting address because that's built on lighting addresses.

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And that's kinda where the idea came from. It was, during sec one,

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during the, free Madera, the, Atlantis conference.

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And, yeah, so, that's where the idea came from. And then

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current kinda went away. I was like, okay. This is still a great thing, and we should have it as a standalone service for anyone to use.

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And I think the main vision back then was, hey,

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and also clients, you should probably use this as a default.

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Today,

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what what I see most use is,

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Cash wallets using it as a default. I mean, like, hey. You have a Cash wallet, and now it also comes with a lightning address. So for example, cash. Me has m p p p cash in it. Sovereign has m p p p cash in it.

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I'm currently rewriting e nets. E nets gonna be, gonna have m pop up cache in it as, like, the the way of, like, using or having a lightning address for your cash wallet.

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Yeah. That makes sense to me.

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I mean, I love cashew.me.

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And my understanding

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speaking with,

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Cali was it was pretty it was relatively easy for him to implement the lightning addresses using mpub.cache.

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So let's talk about real quick, like

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so it's using Cashew on the back end. Yeah.

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I,

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it it and and the cool part about that is you're not actually my understanding is you're not actually the custodian for mpub.cache.

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Right? It's using Mints run by other people. Yes. Exactly. So,

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I'm I'm like, there's some nuances to this. First of all, there's, like, two Yeah. Let's explain the nuances.

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So,

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so right. Like,

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in the in the in the base case,

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because the mint is the real custodian. I mean, it also depends on, like, how do you define custodian.

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With the base setup, that is, like, the most compatible setup,

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and put that cache, the server is in possession of the cache proofs.

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So

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it it

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It's holding the bearer IOT. Exactly. So it is not Got it. Technically, like, the limit is still the custodian, but, like, end of the cache is the next in line custodian.

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Got it. Then with with Cashier, there's a pay to public key, for example,

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where you can, like, lock tokens to a certain public key. So whoever holds the token will not be able to redeem it with the mint without actually signing for it as well.

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So with that, n pop dot cache can actually, like, not be in the, like, the next in line custodian anymore, basically. So if the token is locked to your public key, even n pop dot cache couldn't spend it. And it's actually very good for n pop dot cache as well because it's not in Honeypot anymore. Right? The database is basically useless to an attacker.

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There's even more moments because now there's ntop x dot cache, which is the nightly version of ntop cache v two, basically.

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The reason why we build it on a different or I build it on a different domain is because, obviously, I didn't want to break it for people that currently use it.

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But there's the experimental npopx. Cache that works in a completely different way.

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Like, from the outside, it still works. It looks like the exact same thing.

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But on the inside, it is actually not even creating tokens,

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cash tokens.

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It is just like

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creating a mint quote with the mint. So, basically, requesting an invoice

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and then storing the secret,

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that is used to redeem that invoice with the mint, and then the casual wallet can actually go there and redeem the token themselves.

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Wait. So what is that domain? Npubx.cache?

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Front end. So yeah. Nnpubx.cache.

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But if you if you for example, if you use cashew.me,

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it's already in there. You can scroll in the settings, you can scroll all the way down to experimental.

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You can enable it there.

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And,

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then you will have two lightning addresses for cache with me and npop.cache and an npopnpopx.cache.

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And the cool thing about n pop x dot cache I mean, it's really mostly cool things for people that run n pop dot cache because the the first version required the, the service provider basically to run their own lightning infrastructure as well because it would, like, mirror invoices and, like, proxy invoices and and, like, watch. So you're you're for

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standard mpub. Cash, you're running lightning Well, I'm I'm using Blink. That's pretty common knowledge. So Yeah. I'm using Blink. So, basically, when you pay a lightning invoice,

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if you pay a mpub.cash address, the invoice that you receive is not the Mints. It's Blink's invoice

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because I can use their API to see when it's paid. And then I go to the Mint and and get an invoice of the same amount and stuff like that. And it was, like, mostly complicated stuff that that, like, I've kinda it's, like, the the easy way, basically, of doing it because you didn't need to pull them in. Payment status is very easy. Blink does all that for you.

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But it required you to have a Blink account if you wanted to self host and pop up cache. And I think self hosting and pop up cache is the thing where it gets really interesting because now a

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client or a,

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a cache wallet would not only give you the opportunity to have a default lightning address, but you could also pick the provider. So, basically, if you hosted your own instance,

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you could, like, give out lighting addresses

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running that service. And then in the wallet app, you could just, like It could be like npub at sysldispatch.com.

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For example. Right? Every and so npubx.cache

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is literally just,

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it's just a web server. So it has, like, a Docker file, and you can run the Docker file, and then it's there. It doesn't require any infrastructure. It requires a database connection. It's not written for s two lite yet, but, like, other than that, there's no lightning. There's no whatever. It runs on multiple mints as well, so that's a cool new feature. You can, like, choose your own mint as a user.

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So, yeah, it's the way better version of it, but that cache. And I hope

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at some point, we were able to merge It's basically like m pub

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yeah. It's like m pub dot cache two point o. Exactly.

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But you're running it parallel so that you don't break the existing user flow Yeah. Because

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And because people have balances, and you're just kinda stuck a little bit. Right? Yeah. I mean, like, I I have migration plans.

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The the API just looks very different. So I would kinda break people that implemented m pop dot cache if I would just merge them or, like, migrate.

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So,

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the idea is a slow deprecation.

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It's a lot of, like, communication

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with people as well to see if they upgrade it and when they upgrade, and then it's,

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well, we kind of front ran a little a little bit. Like, when I didn't really think about a lot of the stuff. I didn't think it would, like, pick up so much speed as well. So

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Well, I like I like that. That's, that's the way. I mean, right now, just for the freaks that are participating in the live chat,

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I have

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the primal

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mobile app open. And I'm looking at the chat there, and it's not exactly the same as what is the ZapStream chat, which is being shown on screen. So some comments are being shown and some are not.

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My guess is it has to do

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with relays

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and where the comments are being sent and which relays AppStream is pulling up. But I like figuring out things live. Like, I like

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experimenting, iterating, out in the open, trying to figure out how things work.

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And I think that was one of the coolest parts about mpub.cash

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for me because it was just like, yeah. Is it perfect? Like, no. It's not perfect.

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Maybe one day, it'll be close to perfect, but it works. Like, it just works. It works today, and anyone can just easily just receive zaps.

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So one of the issues in terms of building in the open and iterating,

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one of the issues I noticed as a prolific n pub.cash user,

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that zapped a lot and received a lot of zaps by the way, people are like, oh, Dell, like, you're, like, swimming in the zaps. You get so many zaps. Blah blah blah. Like, the number one thing, I think,

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to receiving more zaps is sending more zaps.

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And my net is I'm way down. I'm down bad, guys. Like, this is

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the most expensive free app experience I've ever had. I think my I checked the stats most recently. I'm, like, down, like, 5,000,000 sats or something. Like, it's $6,000

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spent on Nasr.

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But

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as a receiver of many zaps and many low value zaps,

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when I try and redeem on mpub.cash,

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it's like I have to tell my wife. It's like, okay. You watch the kids. I'm gonna go into that room, and then I'm gonna scan, like, forever. I'm just like or copy and paste. Copy and paste is a lot quicker when you do it. So copy and paste forever

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because it comes in, like, smaller and smaller chunks.

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Why does that happen?

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I know. But, like, explain to the freaks why this happens, and is there does mPubX

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solve this?

215
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Yeah. Okay.

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So it it happens because whenever,

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so with the first version, whenever you receive a payment,

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the server will mint a cache token for you, and that has that denomination.

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And and when you So if I receive, like, 10 sats

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and zaps, like, I'm getting a 10 sat Casio token out of the So you can think about it a little bit like like, dollar bills. Right? There's just, like with cash flow, there's, like, fixed denominations of stuff you can build. So if you receive 10 zaps 10 sats, that will be a out a eight sat bill and a two sat bill, mashed together in a token.

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And these, like, single denominations are what are being stored and then put that cash. So

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if you, after a week of, like, happy Zapathon,

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come back to input that cache and want to, like, redeem all your stuff, it's gonna be, like,

224
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a lot a lot a lot, like, eight or, like,

225
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16 or whatever, like, sized,

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SAT denominations.

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And that that's all data, and it doesn't fit in a QR code at some point.

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Or, like and we were like, I was worrying about, like, even, like, API response size and stuff. Like, if there's, like, a certain size that, like, exceeds, it's it's gonna be But, like, why can't we have

229
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I'm sure there's a technical limitation, but, like, why can't I just have, like, a set redeem all button?

230
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Well, because it's like I I I would so you it it redeems, like, 200

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of these, like, single builds at a time. That's what it does. Because Yeah. So I'm like a super edge case. Right? Yeah. You are. It's my situation. I mean, like, there's there's, like, there's a couple couple others in your boat that I I've I've heard this complaint before. Right? It's one of Like, Gigi. Gigi is probably in there too.

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So

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Maybe Cali. The second question,

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whether the second version fixes this,

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it

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no. It makes it better.

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So,

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with the second version, we we, I we

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changed from,

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minting tokens, so we're not, like, limited by the proof denomination

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to, like, what we call in cash or the mint quote, which is basically,

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the paid invoice

243
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or the proof of payment, basically, or, like, the yeah. So what happens before minting? And that's not, like,

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restricted by the denominations.

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So if you have 21 sets, for example, it's not gonna be three things that you're redeeming. It's still gonna be a single one. Doesn't matter, like, what amount it is. It's all always gonna be a single one. But it's still a single one. And, that means if you have, like, a thousand zaps, there's still a thousand things you gotta deal with.

246
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There's gonna be a protocol that will fix to this because it's something in Casio that we thought about a lot if people want to, like, do a lot of what we call minting.

247
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And they always so, basically, you can always do one mint per HTTP request with a mint.

248
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And we thought that's kinda limitation that it doesn't need to be there.

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Let's create something called batch mint. And once we have batch mint, n pop up cache or, like, n pop x dot cache is literally gonna change to, like, you doesn't matter how many stuff you how many sats, how many, like, different zaps you received, you're gonna click one button. It's gonna make one call, and it's all there.

250
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That's that's the goal.

251
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One call, and it's gonna make one token? So bay well yeah. It it yeah. It's gonna make one token.

252
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It doesn't matter. Just One big token. Like, if I receive, like, 10 if I receive 21 ten twenty one SaaS apps, it creates one token. Let's do 10. Well, the cool thing about mtop x I'm reminded of this. Thing about mtopx.cache,

253
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it leaves this decision up to the client because the server doesn't actually, like, choose the donation. It just, like, stores the the min quote.

254
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So,

255
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the wallet that implements m.. Cash can actually choose the denomination. So if your goal is to have one massive token,

256
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you can get that. But if your wallet's, like, a little bit smart and maybe wants to optimize its local proof storage for better payment flows and other stuff. It can even, like, mint smallest things and choose denominations and optimize its own coin selection by that. So it's really, really, like,

257
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yeah, adjustable in that sense. It leaves the decision 100% up to the client.

258
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Got it.

259
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Yeah. Okay.

260
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So there's a limit there's a the the limitation that you're putting right now in input.cash of 200

261
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sorry. This is a little bit over my head, so I'm just trying my best live.

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The the limitation

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the cool by the way, Freaks. By the way, if you got to this point, you're, like, twenty two minutes in. You're like, what the fuck am I listening to?

264
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You can just go to mpub.cash.

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If you have a Noster extension, like, my favorite is no s two x, and you have your and you have your private key in that extension, you just press the wallet button,

266
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and your wallet will show up. And you will just be receiving Zaps in there. It's super easy. Then you press the redeem button, and you can you can pull the Sats out of the wallet. Super, super easy. That's the cool part.

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We're just diving deep here, and that's why it sounds really complicated. But the cool part is if you're not technical, it's actually quite simple. It's quite simple to do. And and, also, in any Lightning Wallet, you can just put your n pub@npub.cash,

268
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and you can just send sets to that wallet. Super simply without any setup.

269
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But there's this,

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there's this 200 token limit when redeeming,

271
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and that's implemented, but that's not a Cashew protocol

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limit. That's a you you're putting that limit on

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because QR codes would be way too large to scan with the QR code. Yeah. Also, just the amount of data that goes through the wire. And even if you, like, want to copy the string, the string wouldn't fit your clipboard. I was get that's where I was going with it. Is it would be too big for my It depends on your on your system. Right? I I, like, recently had that issue where I was trying to, like, send a cache token on on signal,

274
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and it fit my clipboard, but signal was like, this message is too long. I'm not gonna send it. Oh, okay. They're too big for signal.

275
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Yeah. So,

276
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Okay. And and for everyone listening, like, I I'm like, enter that enter that cash is obviously, like, the home page where you can learn a lot about the stuff. But I feel like the the usability

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of using it, for example, in cashew.me

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as, like, a casual well, because cashew like, cashew.me kinda feels like lightning wallet. Well, then you don't have to manually redeem. No. You don't need to do anything. You just open a cashew.me. You log in with your Nozzle extension, and you have a lightning address in there. And whenever you open the website, it will redeem the stuff automatically for you.

279
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So that's, like, the best UX, there is right now, I think, for npop.cache.

280
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So you wanna just, like, dive in. But correct me if I'm wrong.

281
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I did that at one point.

282
00:24:40.985 --> 00:24:48.045
So, like, cashew.me works better if it just generates a fresh n pub and sec for you. Right? I use it with my personal one. For?

283
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I use it with an author extension. Okay. Well,

284
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I, like, I lost a 100,000 sats at one point Okay. From, like, the redeem thing. I found it. I had to do rescan. It's, like, in settings and stuff. And I took a deep breath. I figured it was there somewhere,

285
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but

286
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there's a little like, I think the two

287
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interfaces get confused with each other sometimes.

288
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Because there's no way for n pub dot cache to know,

289
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right, if something's been redeemed or not. Is that true? So, yeah, that's true. So, basically, what n pub.cache does as soon as you request the token once,

290
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it will mark that as redeemed, basically.

291
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On mpop.cash, there's Right. That's right. There's the history on mpop.cash, basically, that shows you all the withdrawals. So you can on mpop.cash, you can go back and, like,

292
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redisplay,

293
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resurface every every single withdrawal that you did.

294
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So, technically, there should never be something lost.

295
00:25:49.020 --> 00:26:03.615
But cache certainly doesn't do that. Yeah. It just wasn't shown in the UI. It wasn't lost for some That that's also one one big change of mtop x dot cache because mtop x dot cache will always it will, like, just keep giving you whatever you already redeemed.

296
00:26:04.075 --> 00:26:17.070
And then you can you can basically on the API, you can tell it, get only give me stuff that has been redeemed since this time, for example, and then we'll only give you the new stuff. But there's never anything deleted basically on end of x of cache.

297
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So Got it. Better state management. I guess I that's probably what I should do going forward is

298
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just use it with cashew.me.

299
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And I encourage you to use the cashew dot Sorry. I encourage you to use the ntopex,

300
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even if it's marked experimental.

301
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We've been using it, for quite a while now, and it it is pretty stable.

302
00:26:38.285 --> 00:26:54.860
And The setting within cashew dot And if you receive, like, a lot and lot and lot of SAPS, it will still take some time, but at least it will be automatic. You don't have to, like, scan anything anymore. You just open the page, leave it open, and we'll redeem it. Because at some point, the mint rate limits you. Right? So you can only talk to the mint for,

303
00:26:55.275 --> 00:26:56.955
so many requests before he says, nah.

304
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So it will just take a while, but we'll fix that. I promise.

305
00:27:02.635 --> 00:27:03.915
I love it. I love it.

306
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Cactus Jacks,

307
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zap 21,000 sats. He says live free,

308
00:27:10.570 --> 00:27:13.210
but it's not showing on the live chat on zap.stream

309
00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:15.389
because probably relays, like I said, but,

310
00:27:16.090 --> 00:27:17.549
we will figure it out, Freaks.

311
00:27:19.129 --> 00:27:23.470
Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. To the Freaks, you might be familiar with cashew.me

312
00:27:23.825 --> 00:27:27.845
because we've talked about it much at length. Cali is the maintainer of that,

313
00:27:28.145 --> 00:27:32.405
and it's super cool because it's a PWA. So no app store permissions.

314
00:27:32.945 --> 00:27:43.170
You don't have to you don't have to Cali doesn't have to, like, wait for the app stores to take updates or allow him in the store or whatnot. You literally just go to cashew.me

315
00:27:43.630 --> 00:27:44.530
in your browser,

316
00:27:46.830 --> 00:27:51.570
write down your seed phrase just in case you lose your phone or your browser gets wiped or whatever.

317
00:27:51.945 --> 00:27:53.725
And then you have a fully functioning,

318
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lightning wallet powered by Cashew. And as as we just discussed, Cashew,

319
00:28:00.184 --> 00:28:04.765
at mpub.cash for a lightning address so you can receive on you can receive Zaps.

320
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.279
Awesome. How how involved are you with the cacheu.me

321
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:11.340
project? Are you

322
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.960
do you contribute to that often? Or No. I I built the npop.cache

323
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:17.159
integration, a new one.

324
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:26.055
I fixed a couple bugs, in the it's not it's not I'm I'm, like, I'm a heavy user, and I will, let people know when I find something.

325
00:28:26.435 --> 00:28:31.415
I'm not too involved. I'm more involved with the general, like, cache ecosystem, I would say.

326
00:28:32.690 --> 00:28:33.670
So I'm working

327
00:28:34.049 --> 00:28:36.390
pretty much full time on on cache and stuff now.

328
00:28:37.970 --> 00:28:39.910
What are you working on on the cache side?

329
00:28:40.530 --> 00:28:42.070
So I am

330
00:28:42.690 --> 00:28:48.785
well, it's it's a it's a it's a community driven project, but I'm, like, one of the, core maintainers of Cash OTS,

331
00:28:49.085 --> 00:28:50.785
which is the TypeScript implementation

332
00:28:51.165 --> 00:28:53.265
client side implementation of Cash OTS, basically,

333
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that powers most of the Cash OTS apps that we see today. So cache. Me is powered by and and by by Cash OTS.

334
00:29:00.790 --> 00:29:07.210
T s. MiniVids is powered by Cash. T s. Pretty much most of the mobile wallets are powered by Cash. T s.

335
00:29:07.590 --> 00:29:09.050
So I do maintenance there

336
00:29:09.830 --> 00:29:10.070
and,

337
00:29:11.270 --> 00:29:15.530
try to keep that project up to date with the protocol, which which is, like, ever evolving.

338
00:29:16.544 --> 00:29:18.725
I try to do some protocol work as well,

339
00:29:19.745 --> 00:29:23.605
try to contribute wherever I can. And, recently, I started,

340
00:29:24.465 --> 00:29:24.965
reviving

341
00:29:25.745 --> 00:29:26.225
a,

342
00:29:27.105 --> 00:29:33.240
Cashew app that was, like, super loved by the community. It's called Inats. I don't know if you've, tried it before.

343
00:29:34.179 --> 00:29:35.320
Yes. It's a pretty old one.

344
00:29:35.620 --> 00:29:37.480
It was one of the first major,

345
00:29:38.020 --> 00:29:41.320
like, nicely looking Cashew apps that were there.

346
00:29:42.275 --> 00:29:45.975
And at some point, the maintainer, like, moved on to different stuff

347
00:29:46.595 --> 00:29:47.655
and left the project.

348
00:29:48.195 --> 00:29:54.375
And Cashew had a major protocol change since then, so it's not really compatible. And the use was actively discouraged.

349
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:58.419
And, now we decided to, like, revive it, basically.

350
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.260
And so I've been working on for the last couple weeks.

351
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:04.260
I'm trying to get it up to speed.

352
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:09.700
But yeah. So I'm I'm building a lot of, like, tools, cache tools and and

353
00:30:10.105 --> 00:30:12.365
and tooling to for other developers to,

354
00:30:12.745 --> 00:30:14.284
make cache development easier.

355
00:30:15.705 --> 00:30:22.524
And I then try to use it myself. So, for example, I'm working on CocoCacher now. CocoCacher is, like, the batteries include a TypeScript,

356
00:30:23.304 --> 00:30:23.465
you

357
00:30:24.300 --> 00:30:29.520
framework for cache. You don't need to do anything. It just does everything for you. You have, like, a very simple API,

358
00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:31.680
and you don't need to worry about

359
00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:41.304
how does the cache of seed phrase actually work, how does it, like, make sure restoration works, and keeping track of the, of the the derivation of the stuff like that? So,

360
00:30:41.765 --> 00:30:58.210
I built that Does all the hard stuff? All the hard stuff. It does, like, database management and everything. You just, like, let it know what kind of database you wanna use. You need, like, an an interface for it, and then it just goes. And I've been working on that only for, like, two and a half weeks now, so it's very, very early. It's in alpha alpha state right now.

361
00:30:58.830 --> 00:31:09.145
But I'm using it to drive the ENET's development, basically. Because ENET was so old that I needed to rewrite all the cache logic anyways. I was like, okay. If I need to rewrite all the cache logic,

362
00:31:09.525 --> 00:31:16.585
I will, like, abstract it out into a package for other people to use. So now there's And then you can just use Cocoa Cashew

363
00:31:17.770 --> 00:31:21.309
with the eNuts. Idea. So so you kill two birds at once suddenly.

364
00:31:22.970 --> 00:31:25.950
Yeah. ENuts is what I used before cashew.me existed.

365
00:31:26.890 --> 00:31:31.390
I mean, cashew I'd like honestly, I stopped really experimenting that much

366
00:31:31.885 --> 00:31:33.905
in the Cashew ecosystem because

367
00:31:34.365 --> 00:31:36.865
cashew.me is great and just, like, works everywhere.

368
00:31:39.085 --> 00:31:53.300
And it's also very cutting edge. Which is, I guess, benefiting the curse. Yeah. That's pretty cool because you always yeah. There's some of because the updates too. Yeah. The updates too, there's, like, a lot of, like, a lot of new stuff. It's it's kinda like a testing round a little bit as well.

369
00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:04.355
There's the, he always puts these things as experimental, so you don't like, you actively have to opt in into, like, stuff that's a little bit more, like, bleeding edge, but you can do, and it's really cool

370
00:32:04.975 --> 00:32:05.695
for that.

371
00:32:06.495 --> 00:32:10.435
And, like, cache is so so fast. Right? Just the pace is just insane,

372
00:32:11.450 --> 00:32:15.230
at which, like, new features getting added, and and, it's getting

373
00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:16.890
very, very interesting.

374
00:32:17.690 --> 00:32:22.510
Just recently, Bolt 12 was merged, so we're working on, like, getting getting Bolt 12,

375
00:32:23.210 --> 00:32:24.750
working with mints and wallets.

376
00:32:25.155 --> 00:32:29.255
And that's, like, obviously, like, opening up so super cool use cases as well.

377
00:32:31.075 --> 00:32:34.295
Yeah. I mean, on the opposite side, I think it's iOS only,

378
00:32:35.555 --> 00:32:36.935
but I really like Macadamia,

379
00:32:39.800 --> 00:32:45.180
because it's it's the opposite of, like, experimental power user. It's just, like, super clean, straightforward

380
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:47.420
Yeah. Yeah. Macadamia is interface.

381
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:48.780
Just send, receive.

382
00:32:51.515 --> 00:32:55.934
Does Macadamia use cache u t s? No. No. Macadamia is is swift.

383
00:32:56.475 --> 00:33:02.975
All is, like, native stuff. There's no there's no dirty JavaScript running, and that's, like, the clean swift format.

384
00:33:05.034 --> 00:33:06.335
But it's an awesome project.

385
00:33:06.930 --> 00:33:12.743
I just I just opened Macadamia, and I didn't realize I had 900,000

386
00:33:12.743 --> 00:33:21.284
tests in there. So I'm glad we had it's very much a couch cushion thing. So many wallets, testing on so many wallets.

387
00:33:22.705 --> 00:33:23.105
I,

388
00:33:24.705 --> 00:33:26.884
okay. I mean, I see a user question,

389
00:33:27.985 --> 00:33:33.024
from lawn tongue gear. Why don't you have a QR code on npub.cash/wallet

390
00:33:33.024 --> 00:33:33.924
for your address?

391
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:37.400
Like,

392
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:38.220
lightning

393
00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:42.140
QR code, I assume. Something you would typically expect?

394
00:33:42.600 --> 00:33:51.695
Like, I I don't think I've ever seen lightning address QR. I mean, like, well, oh, yeah. Well, l n URL kinda has a yeah. It would make sense. But I think the

395
00:33:51.995 --> 00:33:58.174
the the the goal like, the reason why we use, lightning address in the first place, it is that it's, like, kinda human readable.

396
00:33:59.914 --> 00:34:02.895
So Well, it's not unless you I mean, if you pay

397
00:34:03.600 --> 00:34:07.620
for, like, odel at mpub. Cash, it is. But, like, it's not really if it's

398
00:34:08.640 --> 00:34:12.420
m pub dot one q n y ten a. Yeah. That's true.

399
00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:21.845
Whatever. I don't I don't have my I I think I kinda got my m pub right there, but I don't have my m Pub completely, to be honest. It it would it would make sense for mpub.cache

400
00:34:21.845 --> 00:34:34.680
specifically because the it is not really human readable anymore. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. I I should I should we should have that. But I think with, like, MPub x dot cache, the idea is generally to drive people more towards using it inside something,

401
00:34:35.140 --> 00:34:38.040
like an app. Right. You're using e nuts or macadamia

402
00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:39.460
or cacheyou.me

403
00:34:39.460 --> 00:34:39.960
and

404
00:34:40.420 --> 00:34:46.840
and pub.cache. The interface is kind of just, like, to go there to redeem real quick. Yeah. It it it kinda it kinda was,

405
00:34:47.605 --> 00:34:53.865
also due to the fact that it grew so quickly. Like, the front end was never supposed to be actually used.

406
00:34:54.245 --> 00:35:04.770
It was more of a, hey. I wanna demo this. You wanna, like, try it out real quick? At some point, like, this is gonna move into apps. Like, but here's the bare bones version. Like and then people just, like,

407
00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:05.970
started using

408
00:35:06.349 --> 00:35:09.250
And then so you you learned your lesson, and that's why MPubX

409
00:35:09.550 --> 00:35:26.565
doesn't have a Yeah. I mean, like, with so so the reason why I didn't want it is because it just works way better with all the state stuff. Right? Losing sats. I don't want people to lose sats, obviously. Right? It just works way better if it's, like, in an environment that is an actual cash wallet or has sophisticated wallet capabilities, basically.

410
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:32.780
And so that that's why I said, okay. And x dot cash is not gonna have a front end.

411
00:35:33.080 --> 00:35:34.140
But now with Coco,

412
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.860
like, I'm pretty much, like, putting cash wallets anywhere. So maybe

413
00:35:39.255 --> 00:35:43.434
it will maybe there will be a front end at some point. I'm I'm not promising, but

414
00:35:43.894 --> 00:35:50.394
I think it actually is like, the the goal of Cocoa, if it turns out how I expect it to turn out, it's basically

415
00:35:50.855 --> 00:35:55.720
every web developer will be able to put cash wallets everywhere without having to worry about anything.

416
00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:57.720
I mean, that's the dream. Right?

417
00:35:58.020 --> 00:36:00.599
And that's where it's super powerful at. So I mean,

418
00:36:01.780 --> 00:36:03.720
so, I mean, my vision is

419
00:36:04.579 --> 00:36:07.079
and tell me if I'm absolutely crazy, but,

420
00:36:11.175 --> 00:36:12.474
with Vibe coding,

421
00:36:13.895 --> 00:36:14.635
it's like

422
00:36:15.335 --> 00:36:17.675
well, you have Nasr login and Nasr

423
00:36:18.935 --> 00:36:23.035
comms, like, Nasr identity and Nasr comms, and then you have Cashew.

424
00:36:23.750 --> 00:36:30.970
And then you can pretty much do payments, social, comms, and, like, any Vibe coded app you want with very little overhead.

425
00:36:31.670 --> 00:36:33.130
Is that's the dream. Right?

426
00:36:33.589 --> 00:36:46.914
Just like it could literally I think it comes back to the the thing that I said in the beginning with, like, public infrastructure because Nasr and Casu both offer these, like, pub public infrastructure stuff that you can just use that are free to use the mins and the relays.

427
00:36:47.615 --> 00:36:48.194
You can

428
00:36:49.029 --> 00:36:55.289
build any website that, like, does payments now, and it just uses the mints infrastructure to do the lightning stuff. Right?

429
00:36:56.470 --> 00:37:07.265
Actually, that was Right. You don't need a Stripe API. You don't need a Twitter API. You can just optimize Exactly. And and that was actually I did a workshop in in Riga at the b t c plus plus about this, recently.

430
00:37:07.805 --> 00:37:14.465
I, like, within and even without vibes. Right? Like, half an hour, you just spin up a website, and,

431
00:37:14.770 --> 00:37:25.830
you have a tip button there. And it shows you a lightning your like, your lightning invoice, and you pay the invoice, and then then it sends the SaaS open also. So it does that, obviously, by getting an invoice from a public cashument,

432
00:37:26.370 --> 00:37:33.444
throwing the invoice to the user. And as soon as it's paid, it's gonna, like, create a cash token and send that as a DM to you to your.

433
00:37:33.984 --> 00:37:41.765
And just works. Like, you don't need anything, and now suddenly you'll be able to, like, receive tips anyway without actually having your own stuff. That's awesome.

434
00:37:44.069 --> 00:37:44.890
What is

435
00:37:45.829 --> 00:37:46.650
your opinion

436
00:37:46.950 --> 00:37:47.450
on

437
00:37:48.309 --> 00:37:50.890
I don't know. There's too many nips, but the the

438
00:37:51.430 --> 00:37:54.089
the one that Pablo's pushing that has the

439
00:37:54.695 --> 00:37:56.315
the tokens are in Nostr.

440
00:37:56.775 --> 00:37:58.315
The tokens are in the relay.

441
00:37:58.615 --> 00:37:59.994
Do you know what I'm talking about?

442
00:38:01.175 --> 00:38:10.075
Yeah. Nutsack. What's your opinion on that? And, like, where do we stand on that? Because I feel like people are very excited about it. I haven't really seen it work well in practice yet.

443
00:38:10.990 --> 00:38:13.970
I think, like, the the idea is very, very cool,

444
00:38:14.750 --> 00:38:18.450
because it removes the last thing that might be difficult,

445
00:38:19.390 --> 00:38:29.404
from a infrastructure standpoint, which is the database you need, like, to store your because it's a better asset. You need to store it somewhere. And as you said, you wipe your browser Right. Because you're, like,

446
00:38:30.105 --> 00:38:35.164
like, concerned about your privacy. For example, you wipe your browser storage. Oops. All all the sats are gone.

447
00:38:35.704 --> 00:38:36.265
Yeah. So,

448
00:38:36.744 --> 00:38:38.285
it it solves that issue.

449
00:38:38.744 --> 00:38:39.805
But is,

450
00:38:42.820 --> 00:38:44.119
has an issue.

451
00:38:44.580 --> 00:38:49.800
Basically, it's, like, naturally with state. Right? It's just, like, different it's, like, difficult.

452
00:38:50.100 --> 00:38:55.240
It is There is no state. Like, there's no sort of source of truth. There's no single truth state,

453
00:38:55.780 --> 00:38:56.760
and that makes

454
00:38:57.915 --> 00:39:00.815
makes it using makes using it as a, like,

455
00:39:01.515 --> 00:39:02.255
money database

456
00:39:03.195 --> 00:39:04.175
a little bit difficult.

457
00:39:05.355 --> 00:39:09.215
Because if you go on Auster and, like, some of your, like, notes are gone,

458
00:39:09.680 --> 00:39:15.540
that sucks. Right? But, like, if you go No interest. But if you go on Oster and, like, 50 of your wallet is gone because

459
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:19.540
the relay where you stored that part is now not online or something,

460
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.300
that's more of an issue.

461
00:39:21.600 --> 00:39:32.095
I mean, obviously, there's ways around that with, like, using backups and having better propagation and optimizing your relays. And there's so much stuff happening right now with, like, local relays and amethyst

462
00:39:32.395 --> 00:39:35.135
talking to 400 relays at the same time now. And

463
00:39:35.450 --> 00:39:38.190
so there's there's a lot of stuff that might make this better.

464
00:39:38.890 --> 00:39:44.190
But I think that is that is a little problem problematic about the nutsack idea,

465
00:39:45.210 --> 00:39:46.670
but it it would be solvable.

466
00:39:47.130 --> 00:39:48.350
I just don't see,

467
00:39:48.810 --> 00:39:49.470
the huge,

468
00:39:50.415 --> 00:39:52.675
issue of, like, carrying a database,

469
00:39:53.455 --> 00:39:58.035
around with you, basically. But for syncing, it's cool. I I'm a little, like,

470
00:39:58.495 --> 00:39:59.795
fifty fifty on it.

471
00:40:00.255 --> 00:40:02.435
You go back and forth on it. I can tell.

472
00:40:03.660 --> 00:40:05.599
Well, I mean, I think the dream is

473
00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:09.839
I think the reason that makes it cool isn't necessarily

474
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:11.440
storing a database.

475
00:40:11.740 --> 00:40:12.619
Right? It's just

476
00:40:13.180 --> 00:40:19.495
if you could do it in a way that was UX forward, you'd have way better UX for new users

477
00:40:19.875 --> 00:40:23.735
because they literally would just need their NSAC. All they would need is their NSAC,

478
00:40:24.195 --> 00:40:25.315
and the money would be

479
00:40:25.955 --> 00:40:29.815
the money and everything else would just be handled by the Relay network.

480
00:40:30.640 --> 00:40:34.980
Yeah. So you can imagine a situation where they start up, like, no KYC,

481
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:36.580
receives zaps immediately.

482
00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:38.660
Maybe, you know,

483
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.420
if they're, like, a very basic user, the average user,

484
00:40:43.600 --> 00:40:44.100
like,

485
00:40:44.424 --> 00:40:52.684
the NSAC is just stored in their iOS key chain. You know? Like, they're not even, like, backing up the NSAC. Like, Apple's handling that for them, and they just have, like, the full experience

486
00:40:53.385 --> 00:40:55.404
in a relatively sovereign way.

487
00:40:55.944 --> 00:40:58.684
Yeah. I think that is, like, the holy grail Valhalla.

488
00:40:59.464 --> 00:41:00.210
We've done it.

489
00:41:00.930 --> 00:41:02.630
Yeah. And I mean, like, also, like

490
00:41:02.930 --> 00:41:15.750
like, doing a live stream from your from your computer, for example, on ZapStream, getting zapped there, and then, like, going on a different device, logging into, like, plugin market or something and spending the sat the same sats there to, like, buy something.

491
00:41:16.085 --> 00:41:18.265
That's also, like, pretty With no effort.

492
00:41:18.644 --> 00:41:23.384
With no effort. Right? Just, like, logging in. And so I I definitely see the use cases.

493
00:41:24.964 --> 00:41:26.964
And that that would be that would be super complicated.

494
00:41:27.365 --> 00:41:29.384
Limitations. It's still very early.

495
00:41:29.829 --> 00:41:35.609
And there's there's other ways of, like, solving the sync issue, basically, but it's not like so for example,

496
00:41:38.150 --> 00:41:39.369
there's this project,

497
00:41:41.775 --> 00:41:45.795
I think AGI Cash. They're, like, very early in alpha right now, I think.

498
00:41:46.734 --> 00:41:49.875
They do, like, server side cash wallets, basically.

499
00:41:50.255 --> 00:41:53.395
And they do that, like, using very securely using,

500
00:41:54.095 --> 00:42:00.510
using an enclave, basically, so they don't they cannot rug you and other stuff. So it's, like, very, very sophisticated but pretty cool.

501
00:42:00.810 --> 00:42:10.910
And they do it, like, server side. So, like, whenever you log in through a different device, you still have all your balance there even though it is a better asset. But now it's not on your device. It's on their server, but in a secure way.

502
00:42:11.535 --> 00:42:20.755
But it like, the Nasr identity stuff is like the cherry on top with the Nutsex thing that that just makes it super cool if you can carry around your wallet with your identity.

503
00:42:21.855 --> 00:42:24.115
If we can solve the issue with the sync interstate,

504
00:42:24.770 --> 00:42:26.710
I think that would be super, super awesome.

505
00:42:27.890 --> 00:42:31.490
Yeah. That makes sense to me. I see far as zapped 21,000

506
00:42:31.490 --> 00:42:37.190
sats. Now that Primal added streaming, I'll actually watch you live. Thanks for all the knowledge over the years.

507
00:42:39.815 --> 00:42:40.315
Cheers.

508
00:42:40.855 --> 00:42:41.355
I,

509
00:42:42.855 --> 00:42:43.755
no. I'm pretty

510
00:42:44.855 --> 00:42:48.795
I'm pretty pumped about Nostra Streaming. I think it's gonna be fucking huge.

511
00:42:49.174 --> 00:42:51.515
I, okay. Next question for you.

512
00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:58.340
Is next question for me for you

513
00:42:59.040 --> 00:42:59.540
is

514
00:43:00.080 --> 00:43:00.580
I,

515
00:43:01.680 --> 00:43:02.580
one of my

516
00:43:04.015 --> 00:43:07.635
biggest concern so I'm in I'm a huge cash bull. Like, I

517
00:43:07.935 --> 00:43:08.835
I think it's

518
00:43:09.215 --> 00:43:10.595
one of the most exciting

519
00:43:11.855 --> 00:43:12.355
tangential

520
00:43:12.895 --> 00:43:17.555
aspects of Bitcoin that has happened in the last decade. Like, to me, like, I look and it's like

521
00:43:18.090 --> 00:43:25.150
it's like, okay. You know, I'm not the oldest person in the world, but, like, where have I seen, like, organic viral developer communities?

522
00:43:25.850 --> 00:43:28.750
And it's basically like Bitcoin, Nostril, Cashew.

523
00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:32.110
And Cashew is actually super fascinating because,

524
00:43:33.615 --> 00:43:37.715
Fetti with Fettiman was kinda getting pushed first, the Fettiman open source project.

525
00:43:38.655 --> 00:43:39.155
And

526
00:43:40.255 --> 00:43:46.915
then there was, like, a super well funded VC business out of Fetti that was building on top of the Fettiman project.

527
00:43:47.650 --> 00:43:50.390
And then at the same time, like, Cali

528
00:43:50.690 --> 00:43:55.910
and various Cashew devs, I came out of nowhere and went, like, hold my beer. And you actually see the

529
00:43:56.290 --> 00:44:01.750
the dichotomy of the two projects. Right? Like, there there's similarities between them,

530
00:44:02.724 --> 00:44:04.665
in that they both use Charmin eCash

531
00:44:05.045 --> 00:44:05.785
and Bitcoin.

532
00:44:06.724 --> 00:44:11.305
But then when you look at, like, the actual developer community and and iteration

533
00:44:11.605 --> 00:44:15.465
and improvement that's being made, like, Cash used on, like, a whole different level.

534
00:44:16.325 --> 00:44:18.990
But, anyway, this is a really long winded way of asking this question.

535
00:44:19.849 --> 00:44:20.990
In both situations,

536
00:44:22.010 --> 00:44:23.950
when I think about long term adoption,

537
00:44:26.410 --> 00:44:28.990
I think one of the biggest limiters is,

538
00:44:29.505 --> 00:44:30.644
like, a thriving,

539
00:44:30.944 --> 00:44:31.444
competing

540
00:44:31.825 --> 00:44:32.885
Mint marketplace.

541
00:44:34.865 --> 00:44:38.325
Like, who will build the roads? Who will run the mints?

542
00:44:38.944 --> 00:44:40.805
And so then when I think of that,

543
00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:50.560
generally speaking, my belief is that we need to make it easier to run Mints and run them in a privacy forward way.

544
00:44:51.740 --> 00:44:52.460
You know, not

545
00:44:53.515 --> 00:44:59.295
for instance, like, run if you were, like, running it out of your home, you're, like, doxing your IP address to everyone. Maybe you live in a place where

546
00:44:59.835 --> 00:45:02.734
that would not make governments happy or something like that.

547
00:45:03.435 --> 00:45:06.015
So just high level speaking, like, I think

548
00:45:07.010 --> 00:45:10.950
the easier it is to run a secure mint, the better.

549
00:45:12.690 --> 00:45:21.270
So that we'll have thousands of different mints that people can choose from rather than five or six that are holding the majority of as of of Bitcoin.

550
00:45:24.555 --> 00:45:29.615
Me and Cali like, I've had long conversations with Cali about this. So I'm kinda curious on your opinion on

551
00:45:30.795 --> 00:45:31.455
on that.

552
00:45:32.875 --> 00:45:43.660
On who will run them in? So, like, whether we should make them more secure? Like, what is it what's the question exactly? No. No. No. No. So Cali okay. So I'll just I'll spoon feed it because I it actually is kinda confusing my question.

553
00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:48.140
Cali is concerned about making it too easy to run mints

554
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:49.960
because

555
00:45:50.505 --> 00:45:58.845
and I think he's right on this front, is that, like, you do want someone who's running the mint to be relatively technical so that if something happens,

556
00:45:59.384 --> 00:46:01.404
they can troubleshoot it instead of

557
00:46:02.025 --> 00:46:04.684
like, okay. So I'll use Fedimint as another example.

558
00:46:05.390 --> 00:46:07.410
There were two large public Fedimint

559
00:46:08.270 --> 00:46:11.170
that existed about six months ago, seven months ago,

560
00:46:13.150 --> 00:46:15.090
that basically rugged themselves.

561
00:46:16.910 --> 00:46:21.010
Like, the users lost money, but also the Fedimint operators lost money

562
00:46:21.705 --> 00:46:25.005
because they they had critical errors, and they just couldn't

563
00:46:26.825 --> 00:46:31.325
they just couldn't solve those errors. Right? And so they ended up in a situation where

564
00:46:31.945 --> 00:46:34.520
people lost money, but it wasn't like a,

565
00:46:34.980 --> 00:46:40.840
like, a traditional exit scam where, like, the operator stole the money. Like, actually, the operators lost more money than most of the users.

566
00:46:41.300 --> 00:46:47.240
And so that's Cali's concern in a nutshell. Like, I'd I I don't wanna, like, speak for him too much.

567
00:46:48.195 --> 00:46:51.655
But his concern is that if we make it if we make it so so, like, my dream

568
00:46:52.275 --> 00:46:54.295
is that I got my start nine here,

569
00:46:55.315 --> 00:46:57.575
and I have a community of a 100 people

570
00:46:57.955 --> 00:47:01.655
in my town. And I just wanna run a mint on my start nine,

571
00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:03.200
press go.

572
00:47:04.060 --> 00:47:06.400
They just scan an onion invoice

573
00:47:06.780 --> 00:47:09.920
onion address or something, or maybe it's a Noster

574
00:47:11.100 --> 00:47:15.200
native thing, and then they just connect to my mint. And then I'm their community,

575
00:47:17.135 --> 00:47:18.035
Mint operator.

576
00:47:19.055 --> 00:47:22.515
But I think Cali thinks we're very far off from that vision.

577
00:47:23.214 --> 00:47:24.275
What are your thoughts?

578
00:47:26.335 --> 00:47:29.370
I I don't I don't so I think it is very

579
00:47:29.770 --> 00:47:31.550
important to differentiate between

580
00:47:31.850 --> 00:47:50.135
me running a mint for, like, thousands of people, like, in the whole world and me running a mint for, like, my local community. Right. I think there's, like, far greater risks for the first case, obviously, in the like, you should know exactly what you're doing. You need to know how this stuff works and how to replicate your database and stuff like that.

581
00:47:50.515 --> 00:47:51.575
I think for the local,

582
00:47:52.995 --> 00:47:59.980
for the local community, it's a little bit easier depending on it it always depends on your trust level with the people that use it. Right?

583
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:00.760
I think,

584
00:48:01.240 --> 00:48:11.740
so maybe I'm too optimistic, but if you're like if you're like your uncle Jim for, like, your friends and and your local community and everyone kinda knows and trusts each other and you can, like, keep things a little bit, like,

585
00:48:12.115 --> 00:48:12.855
off protocol,

586
00:48:13.555 --> 00:48:16.835
you could probably always recover from a disaster. Right?

587
00:48:17.235 --> 00:48:23.495
Because you still have your lightning node, for example. And, like, I mean, like, obviously, there can be, like, cases where

588
00:48:24.035 --> 00:48:31.450
with, like, FETI where, like, SATs are, like, real because there's an unforeseen buck or issue and you don't you actually lose Sats.

589
00:48:31.830 --> 00:48:36.010
But then, like, the the thing that is probably all of the Well, FETI is one.

590
00:48:36.310 --> 00:48:38.490
Yeah. Go on. Sorry. Continue. I apologize.

591
00:48:38.790 --> 00:48:44.145
I I just wanted to say, like, from my point of view right now, probably the biggest risk for a mint operator is losing its database

592
00:48:44.605 --> 00:48:57.184
because then, basically, you don't know who owns the market. Stats are whose. Yeah. Cannot. So So it's a different it's a different so I used Fedimint as an example, but Fedimint's different because Fedimint is actually based on on chain Bitcoin. Yeah.

593
00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:03.700
While in Casio, it's a single sig lightning wallet. So, like, as long as you know how to operate

594
00:49:04.660 --> 00:49:07.000
You're not lightning wallet and not lose your money

595
00:49:07.620 --> 00:49:12.120
a lightning node and not lose your money, you probably won't lose the money as the operator.

596
00:49:12.565 --> 00:49:14.825
But you do have the issue of, you know,

597
00:49:15.125 --> 00:49:18.425
how much how much SaaS do does Paul have versus

598
00:49:18.805 --> 00:49:19.865
Chris or something.

599
00:49:20.485 --> 00:49:21.705
Yeah. Yeah.

600
00:49:23.765 --> 00:49:26.025
But yeah. So so I'm

601
00:49:27.160 --> 00:49:31.500
I'm like I I think we could get to that point,

602
00:49:32.520 --> 00:49:33.020
quicker,

603
00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:36.860
than very far off, like you just said.

604
00:49:38.120 --> 00:49:42.700
It it definitely is reckless. And the question is, like, who wants to take the risk? Right?

605
00:49:43.065 --> 00:49:45.964
I think lightning was I I don't know if lightning

606
00:49:46.265 --> 00:49:50.445
is still considered reckless, like, officially, but lightning was reckless for a very long time.

607
00:49:51.065 --> 00:49:58.045
And people used it and it worked. And sometimes people lost hats, and that's I lost so much Bitcoin in early days of lightning.

608
00:50:00.350 --> 00:50:07.650
But but I think the the benefits still, like, outweighed the risk for lightning, and I think it could do that for cash as well. So,

609
00:50:08.990 --> 00:50:10.930
yeah, I think it's good to be careful.

610
00:50:11.365 --> 00:50:12.665
Right? And I don't think

611
00:50:13.045 --> 00:50:27.180
it's it's wise to, like, just put the technology out and be like, yeah. Go play with it. It's like I think is actually right, like, in educating about the risk and be like, hey. Be very careful with this. And it's, like, very early, and we still don't have all the edge cases and stuff.

612
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:32.559
But I've seen within put up cash that people actually don't care.

613
00:50:32.859 --> 00:50:43.245
Like, put up cash still still has the big warning banner at the top. Like like, this is super reckless. Be very careful, and people just use it. Right? People want to be fired out. Warning barrier.

614
00:50:45.705 --> 00:50:50.685
Warning. This is a work in progress. Don't be reckless. No warranties are made with two huge

615
00:50:51.865 --> 00:50:52.365
triangle

616
00:50:53.225 --> 00:50:55.645
exclamation point yellow warning signs.

617
00:50:56.030 --> 00:50:58.290
Yeah. Wanted to make sure everyone knows what's up,

618
00:50:59.230 --> 00:51:05.570
and don't lose their stats. But yeah. So I think the warning also applies for, like, the cutting edge Bitcoin technology.

619
00:51:05.950 --> 00:51:08.369
Doesn't matter whether it's, like, cash or something else.

620
00:51:09.185 --> 00:51:13.685
But I see people still want to use it. And I think as long as people know the risk, they're, like,

621
00:51:14.145 --> 00:51:16.485
they are free to do whatever they want. Right?

622
00:51:16.945 --> 00:51:21.205
Yeah. I think it's better if we, like, try to build software that is, like,

623
00:51:21.720 --> 00:51:22.700
somewhat safe,

624
00:51:23.240 --> 00:51:25.100
than building software that's, like,

625
00:51:25.560 --> 00:51:36.735
super dangerous to use, and you need to be very, like have a lot of expertise to use it to kinda gated from beginners because beginners will still try, and they will even they will fail even harder.

626
00:51:37.215 --> 00:51:38.675
Yeah. Beginners are, like,

627
00:51:40.175 --> 00:51:42.915
they fuck up in ways that you could never even expect.

628
00:51:43.695 --> 00:51:48.355
Yeah. So I think with, like, CDK, for example, I think CDK is something

629
00:51:49.110 --> 00:52:01.450
that will be very, very easy to use and Dockerize and just put out there and, like, just have, like, a working thing. I can I can very much envision this being a like, available on a number or, like, star nine or something?

630
00:52:02.550 --> 00:52:03.050
And

631
00:52:04.645 --> 00:52:14.025
everything is open source. Right? So if you've if anyone feel like putting it on Umbrel, I guess you could just do that. Right? Well, there's someone we're funding

632
00:52:15.365 --> 00:52:16.025
at OpenSats

633
00:52:18.005 --> 00:52:19.225
that is doing that.

634
00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:25.599
And Cali gave me his blessing. So,

635
00:52:28.060 --> 00:52:29.740
when we were doing the review process

636
00:52:30.300 --> 00:52:31.020
I mean, I'm not

637
00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.880
our review committee was in you know?

638
00:52:35.655 --> 00:52:44.315
They're the ones who did the review, but we do ask subject matter experts for their opinions and references. And he's, like, building I don't remember we're funding, like, 200 plus

639
00:52:44.695 --> 00:52:45.195
developers.

640
00:52:45.495 --> 00:52:48.795
I don't remember the name of the project, but he's building, like, a command and control

641
00:52:50.500 --> 00:52:59.319
UI center. You know? It's like you just run it on your start nine. Like, you pull up the interface. Like, shows you the mounts. It shows you your lightning node. It shows Oh, that's Orchard, probably.

642
00:53:00.259 --> 00:53:01.640
What's the project called?

643
00:53:02.099 --> 00:53:02.599
Orchard.

644
00:53:03.779 --> 00:53:04.279
Orchard?

645
00:53:05.655 --> 00:53:09.595
Oh, like the like an like, like, trees. Orchard,

646
00:53:10.135 --> 00:53:12.315
o r c h a d.

647
00:53:13.175 --> 00:53:15.515
Oh, orchard. Is that it? Yeah. Yeah. Like, the trees.

648
00:53:15.975 --> 00:53:19.355
Yeah. That's what it is. Orchard. Yeah. What do you think of that project?

649
00:53:19.860 --> 00:53:23.560
That's super amazing. That's super cool. That's exactly what we need. Yeah.

650
00:53:24.180 --> 00:53:24.680
Yeah.

651
00:53:24.980 --> 00:53:31.640
So that that like, if you combine that with, like, a dockerized mint and, like, LDK so for example, like,

652
00:53:32.020 --> 00:53:37.245
CDK, I've seen that happen. Right? It runs on SQLite. It supports LDK as a back end.

653
00:53:38.025 --> 00:53:44.765
It just it's, like, it's ready to go. You don't need to do anything. You just run the Docker. And, like, LDK is in there and and

654
00:53:45.145 --> 00:54:05.550
and SQLite is in there, and it just works. And it's just, like, everything you need. So if we can make that foolproof, I mean, like, I think I think making it foolproof is the thing that Carlos is probably referring to when he says that it's gonna be a while. And I totally agree with that. Like, making it foolproof will be very, very hard. But a lot of people are no fools. Right? We can make it way more accessible.

655
00:54:07.015 --> 00:54:15.355
And I think that would be a great future if, like, people could run people did that with l and bids. Right? People will Right. Uncle Jimming l and bids for their communities.

656
00:54:15.655 --> 00:54:16.555
I think cash

657
00:54:17.015 --> 00:54:19.355
is more more more suited for this.

658
00:54:20.990 --> 00:54:22.130
Yeah. I mean, I

659
00:54:22.589 --> 00:54:24.930
think I think that was probably a bad idea, but,

660
00:54:26.670 --> 00:54:32.130
I I I think I think the solution is and we like, I visited this

661
00:54:33.635 --> 00:54:37.575
circular economy community in Brazil that was using Ellen Beds.

662
00:54:40.115 --> 00:54:47.974
And I was like, you gotta switch to Cashew. Like, I think I mean, like but, also, I didn't have, like, a good recommendation from at the time because we just weren't really there yet. But,

663
00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:50.780
and I do wanna say,

664
00:54:52.040 --> 00:54:52.540
personally,

665
00:54:53.720 --> 00:54:56.460
I question using the term uncle Jim for

666
00:54:57.560 --> 00:54:59.340
anything that resembles custodianship.

667
00:55:02.875 --> 00:55:06.734
Like, originally, it was I mean, whatever. Memes are designed to

668
00:55:07.595 --> 00:55:08.815
live past their

669
00:55:09.355 --> 00:55:10.654
origin story. But

670
00:55:11.674 --> 00:55:15.450
when I originally started using the term uncle Jim, which is just, like,

671
00:55:16.010 --> 00:55:28.910
going through wildfire and, by the way, I do not have an uncle named Jim because I didn't wanna dox my real uncle, so I just used the first name that came to mind. It's kinda crazy that people just say uncle Jim now. It was supposed to be, like, an Electrum server or something. Like,

672
00:55:29.535 --> 00:55:31.315
I I still kinda question

673
00:55:32.415 --> 00:55:34.835
I go back and forth on, like, whether I want

674
00:55:35.855 --> 00:55:37.795
to be holding my nephew's SATs,

675
00:55:40.255 --> 00:55:42.674
or, like, be involved in that financial arrangement.

676
00:55:43.490 --> 00:55:47.030
But if you're going to, like, I think Casio is probably the best way to do it.

677
00:55:47.490 --> 00:55:53.109
It's just like, you wanna talk about stakes are high. Like, yeah, if you're running a huge mint

678
00:55:53.650 --> 00:55:56.869
that has 20,000 users globally or something,

679
00:55:57.325 --> 00:56:05.585
which I don't think any Mint has 20,000 users, but, you know, let's just say in success. Like, you you probably feel a heavy responsibility. But even if you're running a Mint

680
00:56:06.125 --> 00:56:08.545
for a 100 users in your local community,

681
00:56:08.845 --> 00:56:09.505
it's like

682
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:16.180
you're seeing them around. Like, they're at the market and shit. They're, like, over your house. Like, you better not lose their money.

683
00:56:16.640 --> 00:56:17.200
Like, that's

684
00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:20.100
in some ways, that's a even bigger responsibility,

685
00:56:22.674 --> 00:56:26.615
because you're kinda, like, shitting where you eat. You know? Like, you're like that's like a real

686
00:56:27.154 --> 00:56:29.635
real relationship. So in person's like the

687
00:56:30.515 --> 00:56:34.135
I don't know. I go back and forth on it. I love Cashew. I think it's a

688
00:56:35.270 --> 00:56:37.109
very exciting project. I see,

689
00:56:37.589 --> 00:56:40.970
million zapped 42,000 sats. He says we're gonna make it.

690
00:56:42.230 --> 00:56:43.210
I love the bullishness.

691
00:56:45.510 --> 00:56:51.984
I saw Cerebrum says he lost 30 k sats while melting eCash, paying a lightning invoice with OX chat.

692
00:56:53.484 --> 00:56:55.984
Super fat arrow wants a thousand mints to bloom.

693
00:56:56.525 --> 00:56:59.345
On the Mint Discovery stuff, let's talk about that.

694
00:56:59.885 --> 00:57:00.385
Mhmm.

695
00:57:01.340 --> 00:57:04.800
I don't know why my mic who builds a microphone with a touch

696
00:57:05.580 --> 00:57:10.960
mute button where people fidget and move the microphone? It's just whoever works at Shure

697
00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:12.720
that came up with that idea,

698
00:57:13.955 --> 00:57:17.095
like, you should be fired. It was a horrible idea. Anyway,

699
00:57:18.515 --> 00:57:23.395
Mint discovery is the single biggest issue. I recommend someone cashyou.me

700
00:57:23.555 --> 00:57:24.855
go to cashyou.me.

701
00:57:24.995 --> 00:57:31.330
What is their first well, their first question is that they can't immediately receive SaaS because there's a big admin button.

702
00:57:31.710 --> 00:57:34.850
And then their second question is, which Mint do I choose?

703
00:57:36.590 --> 00:57:38.450
And Cali hates this question,

704
00:57:40.270 --> 00:57:41.810
but it's the biggest issue.

705
00:57:42.275 --> 00:57:44.295
So how do you think about it

706
00:57:44.675 --> 00:57:46.215
from an end user perspective?

707
00:57:48.115 --> 00:57:49.895
What solutions do we have?

708
00:57:50.195 --> 00:57:50.695
Mitigations,

709
00:57:50.995 --> 00:57:52.135
maybe no solutions.

710
00:57:53.315 --> 00:57:55.815
How do you think about it? That's yeah. So

711
00:57:57.579 --> 00:58:02.000
I I I mentioned before that I I love to build, like, tooling for the cache developers.

712
00:58:03.020 --> 00:58:04.619
One of that, is,

713
00:58:04.940 --> 00:58:11.185
Casu k y m, Casu No You Mint. No You Mint is a term coined by Eric, a,

714
00:58:11.585 --> 00:58:14.724
great UX designer that is working in the cashew space.

715
00:58:15.505 --> 00:58:17.285
I love Eric. Eric's good people.

716
00:58:17.585 --> 00:58:22.950
Eric is good people. Yeah. So so he was in in Riga, he was talking about the concept of no you meant.

717
00:58:23.510 --> 00:58:34.010
Basically, discovering mints, seeing who's using that mint or who would recommend that mint, and also getting some stats about the mint. And we actually already have tools for that. Right? There's a,

718
00:58:35.510 --> 00:58:39.964
that I don't know the number out of my head, but there's a noster. I think it's 87.

719
00:58:40.825 --> 00:58:42.685
But, yeah, not not too sure,

720
00:58:43.065 --> 00:58:45.885
that that's people recommend cashew and fettimints

721
00:58:46.265 --> 00:58:47.325
on, noster.

722
00:58:48.025 --> 00:58:53.640
So you can use your web of trust basically to see which mints would your friends or friends of friends recommend.

723
00:58:54.340 --> 00:58:57.140
So that's pretty cool. So you can go to bitcoinmints.com.

724
00:58:57.140 --> 00:58:58.200
NIP 87.

725
00:58:59.140 --> 00:59:03.060
NIP 87. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. So you can you can go to bitcoinmints.com,

726
00:59:03.060 --> 00:59:07.765
for example, and we'll just aggregate events and show you different recommendations and ratings.

727
00:59:08.545 --> 00:59:09.525
That's pretty cool.

728
00:59:09.904 --> 00:59:11.605
And then there is the

729
00:59:12.464 --> 00:59:13.444
the mint auditor,

730
00:59:14.545 --> 00:59:15.444
that is not,

731
00:59:16.065 --> 00:59:20.404
that is not, like, for recommendations, but rather for, like, testing mints. So it's like

732
00:59:20.750 --> 00:59:30.210
you can, peep it it relies on donations so people can just, like, put some money in, and then the auditor will, like, ping it around from mint to mint and mint and all those calls. Auditor.

733
00:59:30.750 --> 00:59:33.730
That's super cool. It will record It's like a bank run through rate.

734
00:59:34.785 --> 00:59:41.444
Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Right? It's it first of all, it checks whether the lighting implementation is actually real, so whether the money can actually

735
00:59:41.984 --> 00:59:51.160
go out again. But, also, it records, like, the success rates and all the speeds and everything and then gives you this thing as, like, data back via an API.

736
00:59:51.700 --> 00:59:54.260
So, with cache and k o m, I I,

737
00:59:54.740 --> 01:00:01.480
combined the two, basically. So you run a single command, basically. It's a JavaScript library. You run a single, API,

738
01:00:01.845 --> 01:00:05.065
And then it will aggregate all the events from Nasr with the recommendations

739
01:00:05.765 --> 01:00:21.980
and will look for, like, Mint Auditor data. And then it will, like, put them all together and give you a list of Mints. Will they say, like, this Mint was recommended by, like, 10 people, but its speed index compared to others is only, like, 60 out of a 100, and its success rate is only, like, 81%.

740
01:00:22.040 --> 01:00:25.900
So you can, like, have all this information at one single in in one single,

741
01:00:26.280 --> 01:00:42.480
UI element, basically. So the idea is, like, if you go to cache.me in the future, you will not see that big admin button, but instead, it will be like, hey. Here's a list of, like, twenty minutes I found on Oster, and here's some, like, neutral data about it so you can make your own informed decision about this.

742
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:51.540
Users might still not know what a mint is and what exactly what it does, but they will see, well, this is five stars and pretty quick. So hey.

743
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:56.580
Or, like, use web of trust, obviously, to, like, mitigate civil attacks or something.

744
01:00:57.875 --> 01:00:58.375
Yeah.

745
01:01:00.915 --> 01:01:02.935
I mean, I think the auditor is cool.

746
01:01:03.714 --> 01:01:05.095
So the auditor is,

747
01:01:05.555 --> 01:01:07.815
what, audit dot eight three three

748
01:01:08.515 --> 01:01:09.255
dot spade.

749
01:01:11.620 --> 01:01:12.500
But, also, like

750
01:01:13.380 --> 01:01:17.240
I mean, I feel like that just kinda points out, like, who are the really bad offenders.

751
01:01:18.660 --> 01:01:19.800
Like, it kinda doesn't

752
01:01:20.180 --> 01:01:21.400
help you with, like,

753
01:01:22.065 --> 01:01:25.685
I don't know. Someone could be a good Mint operator and then not be.

754
01:01:26.385 --> 01:01:27.285
Like, there's always

755
01:01:27.744 --> 01:01:32.885
that situation. Or they could be, like, our particularly savvy malicious Mint operator

756
01:01:33.585 --> 01:01:34.085
Yeah.

757
01:01:34.460 --> 01:01:38.079
And get around it. It's just like these are, like, the really poorly run

758
01:01:38.539 --> 01:01:48.240
do avoid just avoid these at all costs. Like, it really spots those really easily. So it does solve a piece. I think the web of trust stuff is super interesting. Like, I've,

759
01:01:49.045 --> 01:01:50.645
you know, reviewed Mints and

760
01:01:53.845 --> 01:02:03.625
but then also, like, then they're kinda just like they're like, oh, like, Odell's emojis. Odell's profile pictures. They're like, he he's endorsed this. You know? So, like, kinda Yes.

761
01:02:04.250 --> 01:02:04.829
And then

762
01:02:05.609 --> 01:02:07.150
and then you're you're also

763
01:02:08.250 --> 01:02:09.530
you know, you're you're

764
01:02:09.849 --> 01:02:20.635
these are tools that are still, like, useful for, like, medium to power users, right, who are, like, making an educated decision and kinda know what they're doing. I I feel like we're still missing the piece of,

765
01:02:23.975 --> 01:02:25.995
you know, average Joe

766
01:02:26.775 --> 01:02:31.195
who is trying to get into Bitcoin, and I recommend him a Cashew wallet.

767
01:02:32.060 --> 01:02:35.760
Like, my recommendation kinda has to come with a mint, and maybe that's okay.

768
01:02:37.020 --> 01:02:38.880
But I have to, like, guide him into

769
01:02:39.500 --> 01:02:40.640
and use this mint.

770
01:02:41.660 --> 01:02:42.160
Yeah.

771
01:02:42.620 --> 01:02:45.280
But I do wonder, like, if there's a

772
01:02:45.705 --> 01:02:46.205
a

773
01:02:49.225 --> 01:02:51.005
and I I respect that

774
01:02:51.305 --> 01:02:55.485
Casio devs in general are, like, really sensitive to this topic.

775
01:02:56.025 --> 01:02:58.365
They don't wanna, like, make decisions for the user.

776
01:03:00.009 --> 01:03:01.789
But I still think in my head,

777
01:03:03.049 --> 01:03:04.269
a Cashew wallet

778
01:03:05.049 --> 01:03:05.549
that

779
01:03:07.210 --> 01:03:07.710
automatically

780
01:03:08.089 --> 01:03:17.385
has, like, an easy mode that defaults to a certain number of mints and maybe splits them up, like, splits the balances up. Like, there's a middle ground there

781
01:03:18.005 --> 01:03:20.985
that just makes the onboarding flow and UX much easier.

782
01:03:21.605 --> 01:03:23.465
Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

783
01:03:23.925 --> 01:03:39.990
Yeah. I I see that point. I mean, like, it it is it is kinda similar to to to the NASA stuff, right, with the relays and, like, do you really want a bit? It's like it's a little bit worse, I think, because, like, you're actually, like, choosing a custodian, not just, like, your network to relay your your,

784
01:03:41.045 --> 01:03:44.265
like shitposts. Right? You're actually, like, having value there.

785
01:03:45.605 --> 01:03:46.665
So I think it's

786
01:03:46.965 --> 01:03:52.505
I I actually support the the, like, decision of most cache devs to not, like, put that

787
01:03:54.220 --> 01:03:56.080
like, make that decision for the user.

788
01:03:56.860 --> 01:03:58.640
But I agree that we need

789
01:03:59.260 --> 01:04:03.840
to find a better solution for the onboarding flow. Just like a big list of recommended

790
01:04:04.140 --> 01:04:06.400
I mean, like, I I see the

791
01:04:07.595 --> 01:04:08.974
issue with, like, the recommendations

792
01:04:09.355 --> 01:04:11.934
not being enough for entry level user,

793
01:04:12.395 --> 01:04:23.490
but I always, like, compare it to, like, restaurant reviews or, like, Amazon reviews or something. Right? When I order something that I have no idea about or if I want like, in a city that I don't know,

794
01:04:23.790 --> 01:04:27.650
I'm looking on, like, maps for, like, restaurant recommendations, for example.

795
01:04:28.030 --> 01:04:32.850
I will, like, see a list of, like, a lot of, like, places, and then I will go by star rating, like,

796
01:04:33.630 --> 01:04:35.150
like Right. 4.8

797
01:04:35.150 --> 01:04:37.090
sounds good. Right? Let's just do it.

798
01:04:38.285 --> 01:04:39.105
So I think

799
01:04:40.205 --> 01:04:46.465
and and, like, I I understand that it would be good or, like, it would be better for the user to fully understand what they are, like, doing.

800
01:04:46.925 --> 01:04:49.105
But I think just from a UX perspective,

801
01:04:49.405 --> 01:04:56.000
like, giving the user a list of, like, mints and then putting star ratings next to them and just letting them choose one

802
01:04:57.500 --> 01:04:59.820
also kinda works. Right? And But you kinda

803
01:05:00.540 --> 01:05:07.840
I mean, I don't wanna put you on the spot. I mean, I agree with you for the most part, but, like, you kinda did that with mpub.cash. Right? Like, which if

804
01:05:08.385 --> 01:05:11.585
which meant does it default to on mpub.cache?

805
01:05:11.585 --> 01:05:13.365
Is it many bits? Yes.

806
01:05:14.305 --> 01:05:16.885
And that's part of the reason why mpub dot cache is awesome

807
01:05:17.505 --> 01:05:18.225
is because

808
01:05:18.945 --> 01:05:34.900
It needs to it needs to in order to work. Right? Right. Because, otherwise, you would because the whole value proposition was like, this just runs out the box. No sign up needed. Yeah. If you would need to choose them in first while there is your sign up, right, you you need to, like, do some stuff and then so with m.x.cache,

809
01:05:34.900 --> 01:05:39.145
at least you can change it. Right? With n pop.cash, you we're we're, like, we're, like

810
01:05:39.765 --> 01:05:42.985
it still defaults. Right? I like that. I support that.

811
01:05:43.605 --> 01:05:43.765
It

812
01:05:45.445 --> 01:05:49.385
in deliberate and responsible way. Like, you still I mean, there's

813
01:05:50.450 --> 01:05:55.350
there's kind of a corollary here with on chain Bitcoin, but it's different because it's it's a different,

814
01:05:55.970 --> 01:05:58.070
trade off, that drug model or whatever.

815
01:05:58.610 --> 01:05:59.110
But,

816
01:06:01.250 --> 01:06:03.990
like, one of the coolest things I think Sparrow did

817
01:06:04.685 --> 01:06:09.025
was it kinda solved the spooks running Electrum servers problem

818
01:06:09.645 --> 01:06:11.105
in the most simple,

819
01:06:11.805 --> 01:06:22.770
elegant way possible, which was he picked five Electrum servers that he didn't think were being run by spooks, and it just defaults to those five servers. Like, everyone was trying to come up with, like, super complicated ways

820
01:06:23.070 --> 01:06:35.244
of, like, how do you make sure that you're not connecting to an Electrum server that's trying to track you or feed you bad information or whatever. And he just, like, literally created a white list. It's like, you can choose any electrum server you want, but by default,

821
01:06:36.105 --> 01:06:38.825
it's gonna connect to blockstreammempool.

822
01:06:38.825 --> 01:06:40.525
Space, you know, like,

823
01:06:41.065 --> 01:06:42.765
highly trusted, reputable,

824
01:06:44.769 --> 01:06:45.269
things,

825
01:06:45.650 --> 01:06:51.589
reputable servers for the new user that has no idea maybe who who Blockstream is or mempool or whatever.

826
01:06:53.569 --> 01:06:55.190
It's just I think it's still dynamic.

827
01:06:55.809 --> 01:06:58.390
Yeah. I I I I think, like, there's still

828
01:06:58.715 --> 01:07:14.015
there's still a big difference, though, when you compare, like, this to Cashflow, for example. Right? Because what we try to avoid as well is, like I mean, like, I I think everyone that has used Cashflow for a while knows that, like, Mini Bits is absolutely amazing. It's a great mint. Right.

829
01:07:14.610 --> 01:07:16.450
Right? But, like, we also want to

830
01:07:17.410 --> 01:07:23.350
we want we we're trying to avoid, like, massive honeypots. Right? Right. You don't want everyone to use minibits.

831
01:07:23.890 --> 01:07:36.505
That would be great. Right? Please not everyone. You, like, use different mints as well. Like, spread spread out the risk and do do stuff like that with, like, amazing stuff, like multi path payments coming to like, in, being in cash right now,

832
01:07:37.125 --> 01:07:41.465
you like, spreading across different means is actually even better. That's what I'm saying. You could do that.

833
01:07:41.765 --> 01:07:43.685
But that's what my suggestion isn't

834
01:07:44.730 --> 01:07:45.390
my suggestion

835
01:07:45.690 --> 01:07:52.190
isn't that everyone defaults to mini bits or, like, three or whatever. But, like, you could by default, you could do,

836
01:07:52.970 --> 01:07:54.990
I don't know, like, six or eight

837
01:07:55.690 --> 01:08:04.325
highly reputable mints and then split funds between them and then do multipath payments from them. And then users can custom or at least, like, an easy mode or something.

838
01:08:05.265 --> 01:08:08.705
It's just when I talk to end users, like, that's the friction point. The friction point is, like

839
01:08:09.425 --> 01:08:16.080
and it's right in the beginning. It just slaps them into in the face. Is the admin button and then choosing which mint.

840
01:08:16.620 --> 01:08:24.560
And best case scenario, it's like they're almost always just blindly following what I tell them to hit. It's like, okay. Press the admin button and

841
01:08:25.195 --> 01:08:26.335
press mini bits,

842
01:08:27.275 --> 01:08:37.935
and then they're off to the races. Like, that's that's the flow that's actually happening in practice. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's it's it's in Bitcoin, it's with a lot of things. Right? Like seed phrases, for example.

843
01:08:38.360 --> 01:08:46.619
Like Yeah. I hate it that when I just want to try out something really quick, like, when you bought it, whatever. Like, I wanna try it out, and I see, okay,

844
01:08:47.000 --> 01:09:21.099
seed phrase. I'm not gonna use that wallet anyways. Right? Like, okay. Next. I've written it down. Blah blah blah. And then then it does the check. It's like Yeah. And it, like, blocks screenshots and it, like, blocks copy paste. And I'm like, oh, I just wanna try this out, and I actually have to get, like, pen and paper, write everything down to the check. But, of course, this is great because if you don't do it, people will use that wallet with real funds, not just for testing, and they will use lose it because they did not write it down or they said they would do it later in the world. I mean, a lot of the good mobile wallets now delay that process. They don't do it right in the beginning.

845
01:09:22.545 --> 01:09:25.685
And I think that was probably a good UX win. Right? It's like,

846
01:09:28.465 --> 01:09:29.125
I mean,

847
01:09:29.825 --> 01:09:45.079
like, you, like, you wait, and then you, like, notify the user, like, an hour after using it, or maybe there's a balance threshold or something. And then at that point Yeah. You know, you pop up and you're like, okay. You gotta write your seat down. You gotta verify it. You gotta do this. Are you sure you're happy with your mince

848
01:09:47.025 --> 01:09:50.405
instead of just front loading it all right, like, right in the beginning?

849
01:09:51.665 --> 01:09:59.765
Well, that's actually a good idea. Like, capping it at a certain certain value and be like, dude, now get off all the bits.

850
01:10:00.280 --> 01:10:02.300
Yeah. Learn this stuff. Yeah.

851
01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:03.820
Yeah. That's cool.

852
01:10:04.280 --> 01:10:04.780
Yeah.

853
01:10:05.719 --> 01:10:08.540
Okay. I saw a question from someone in the chat.

854
01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:14.620
Let's see. Where is he?

855
01:10:19.864 --> 01:10:24.925
I don't know. I can't find him now. But, he said that he's he wants to become a Cashew dev.

856
01:10:26.505 --> 01:10:30.925
New new developers that wanna contribute to Cashew, what's your recommendation to them?

857
01:10:31.650 --> 01:10:37.750
Yeah. That that's that's awesome. I think one of the great things or, like, one of the best things about Cashew is that it's, like,

858
01:10:38.610 --> 01:10:39.110
rock

859
01:10:40.450 --> 01:10:47.675
brain stuff. Right? It's, like, super, super easy to get into, and and there's, like, so much stuff to to do. So, basically, what what basically,

860
01:10:48.534 --> 01:11:02.680
I think the best I the best thing to get into is, like, first of all, you decide what you want to write, like, what languages to stuff that like, what is what is it you you currently good at, and then you just look for whether there is a project that is in the language that you prefer.

861
01:11:03.140 --> 01:11:06.440
Because with cache, the great thing is it's such a vast ecosystem.

862
01:11:06.980 --> 01:11:11.080
There's probably already something being built in whatever you prefer.

863
01:11:11.445 --> 01:11:11.945
So,

864
01:11:12.724 --> 01:11:17.445
you don't actually have to learn everything from from from new or find something that that,

865
01:11:18.405 --> 01:11:31.180
like, learn a new language or something, but rather there is probably already a project that you can just contribute to. So, a great place to start is the, cache b two c githuborg because a lot of projects are actually on there. So you can look there.

866
01:11:32.600 --> 01:11:34.040
There's cache.space,

867
01:11:34.040 --> 01:11:35.580
which is the protocol's homepage,

868
01:11:36.054 --> 01:11:41.514
and it has a lot of links to, like, different projects and libraries for different languages and other stuff.

869
01:11:42.534 --> 01:11:44.074
So those are the two things,

870
01:11:44.695 --> 01:11:47.034
that you could, like, look for resource wise.

871
01:11:47.574 --> 01:11:50.100
There's a Telegram chat as well as a Matrix chat.

872
01:11:50.580 --> 01:11:55.720
Links to those are also in cache. Space. You can get involved in conversation directly with other developers.

873
01:11:56.420 --> 01:11:58.840
And then once a month, there's a big,

874
01:11:59.300 --> 01:12:01.480
Cashew monthly dev call

875
01:12:02.355 --> 01:12:06.535
that covers all the protocol development and all the other stuff that happened in the ecosystem

876
01:12:07.155 --> 01:12:14.935
since the last call and also, like, has room for demos. So at the end, we always do, like, a lot of demos from everyone in the space, basically,

877
01:12:15.635 --> 01:12:17.335
showing off what they built with Cashew.

878
01:12:18.050 --> 01:12:20.550
So I think these are the main entry points, basically,

879
01:12:21.250 --> 01:12:22.710
to get into cash development.

880
01:12:23.489 --> 01:12:23.989
Awesome.

881
01:12:24.370 --> 01:12:25.670
Contribute, freaks.

882
01:12:25.970 --> 01:12:27.430
Yes. K. Yeah.

883
01:12:28.450 --> 01:12:29.430
I see SoapMiner

884
01:12:29.970 --> 01:12:31.365
zapped 21,000

885
01:12:31.365 --> 01:12:33.625
with a question. Are you familiar with SoapMiner?

886
01:12:34.245 --> 01:12:35.065
Yes. I am.

887
01:12:35.605 --> 01:12:49.080
That's so Have you used this soap? Have you tried this soap? I no. I I I I saw that that he was, he he, posted about, sending worldwide now if he likes, like, hitting up on Milestone. I was thinking about doing that because I'm not US based.

888
01:12:49.860 --> 01:12:54.040
He's gonna regret doing that. Sending international is a pain in the ass.

889
01:12:54.420 --> 01:12:57.640
Maybe we won't regret doing it. Anyways, great soap. You should consider it.

890
01:12:58.900 --> 01:12:59.960
But he's asking,

891
01:13:02.554 --> 01:13:06.335
and I don't know so, Minor, if you're still here, it'd be great if you can,

892
01:13:07.835 --> 01:13:10.574
add to your question. But he's talking about implementing

893
01:13:11.035 --> 01:13:13.775
accepting Cashew on a WooCommerce site.

894
01:13:15.750 --> 01:13:16.730
I mean, my

895
01:13:17.670 --> 01:13:23.450
the cool part about Cashew is that you could just accept Lightning, and then someone's using a Cashew wallet, they can just pay you.

896
01:13:25.030 --> 01:13:27.450
So I don't really know what that question means,

897
01:13:28.805 --> 01:13:29.305
But

898
01:13:30.805 --> 01:13:33.065
maybe wants to receive to a Cashew wallet.

899
01:13:33.845 --> 01:13:43.225
Yeah. So, I mean, like, there's there's Cashew payment requests. Right? So, you can you can actually, like, use use full on Cashew tokens to directly pay.

900
01:13:44.780 --> 01:13:47.040
Because If you're offline, I can see.

901
01:13:47.580 --> 01:13:48.540
Yeah. That that was

902
01:13:49.260 --> 01:13:49.760
yeah.

903
01:13:50.220 --> 01:13:52.000
Being being offline would be one.

904
01:13:53.260 --> 01:13:54.640
There is the whole,

905
01:13:55.580 --> 01:13:57.435
API stuff that that,

906
01:13:57.915 --> 01:13:58.655
you maybe

907
01:13:59.035 --> 01:14:05.375
have seen the Casio four zero two basically using it as authentication rather than that, for example, with with Casio.

908
01:14:06.235 --> 01:14:10.255
So there's definitely, like, benefits of paying with Casio, but I agree in, like, an ecommerce

909
01:14:10.635 --> 01:14:11.695
style thing,

910
01:14:12.090 --> 01:14:15.550
especially because you want to have a lot of users being able to pay you

911
01:14:15.930 --> 01:14:21.230
using a lot of them. Friction. Right? You don't wanna give them a bunch of different options. You wanna just

912
01:14:21.610 --> 01:14:25.310
here's your lightning invoice. Here's your on chain invoice. That's it.

913
01:14:25.735 --> 01:14:29.755
Yeah. During the during the hackathon in in Riga, I built a POS,

914
01:14:30.295 --> 01:14:30.795
system,

915
01:14:31.575 --> 01:14:32.315
on Cashew,

916
01:14:32.695 --> 01:14:33.515
called PeanutPal.

917
01:14:34.375 --> 01:14:41.690
And, actually, I used all Lightning in there as well. Like, it was all based on Cashew, but, like, all the invoices are visible, and so only lightning.

918
01:14:43.830 --> 01:14:47.130
You don't have to apologize, SoapMiner. You make the best soap in the business.

919
01:14:48.310 --> 01:15:00.375
I just wanna answer your question properly. That's why I said it. SoapMiner said he doesn't understand, Matt. My bad. Still learning. Also, you zapped 21,000 sats. So, like, there's literally no dumb question if you zap that much.

920
01:15:02.435 --> 01:15:03.655
To to get to the question,

921
01:15:04.195 --> 01:15:08.640
there's But what about the point of sale thing? Let's talk about oh, yeah. Continue. Anyway, go.

922
01:15:09.200 --> 01:15:14.260
Sorry. I just wanted to say that there's actually, like, a b two c pay, plug in for CashNet.

923
01:15:15.120 --> 01:15:15.620
So,

924
01:15:16.160 --> 01:15:17.440
you can How does that work? You can

925
01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:27.465
so, basically, it first of all, it offers the thing that we just talked about that doesn't make too much sense, like, off like, actually paying with the cache token.

926
01:15:28.725 --> 01:15:39.465
But the idea and I'm not sure if it's in yet, but I know that that that is one of the things that it should do at some point is you should be able to, like, host a BTC pay server and use cache as your lightning back end.

927
01:15:40.150 --> 01:15:42.970
I think and that I think that's, like, the biggest be awesome.

928
01:15:43.430 --> 01:15:56.315
Yeah. I think that would because then you're not running a Lightning node or anything. You're just You just need the server. You just need the b two c pay server, and Lightning is done by the Mint. I think that's that's definitely the biggest thing to like, biggest, like, goal to get here.

929
01:15:57.335 --> 01:16:02.474
And I think This is actually really easy. It's really easy to run BDC pay with on chain only

930
01:16:02.775 --> 01:16:06.474
because on chain wallets are super easy to work with. They don't have to be interactive.

931
01:16:06.775 --> 01:16:12.119
You can just, like you can literally get it directly to a hardware wallet if you want to. It's, like, spits out a fucking seed,

932
01:16:13.060 --> 01:16:19.480
or you put your, like, XPub in super easy. Yeah. But receiving lightning on BTC payserver, especially for

933
01:16:20.595 --> 01:16:24.135
random Joe that's selling salami at the farmer's market,

934
01:16:24.835 --> 01:16:26.375
is such a pain in the ass.

935
01:16:27.075 --> 01:16:27.575
Yeah.

936
01:16:28.035 --> 01:16:32.535
I think Cashier would be such a great fix for this. Just like connect to a mint,

937
01:16:32.860 --> 01:16:53.325
and whenever it needs an invoice, it just ask the mint point. Basically, exactly what m p dot dot cash does. Right. And then you would, like, get it get an invoice from the mint, forward it to the user, and then check whether it was paid. And once it's paid, mint to cache it to your own database, and that's it. But instead of Lightning address, like, bolt 11, like, just a standard Lightning QR code

938
01:16:53.785 --> 01:16:54.845
invoice. Exactly.

939
01:16:55.385 --> 01:16:59.085
Yeah. Yeah. That'd be awesome. I saw b g c pay did do something

940
01:16:59.465 --> 01:16:59.965
with

941
01:17:00.469 --> 01:17:04.090
liquid kind of in that regard where it's like every lightning payment's a bolt's,

942
01:17:04.790 --> 01:17:05.290
swap,

943
01:17:05.750 --> 01:17:09.210
and then you receive it via liquid, which is also kind of compelling.

944
01:17:11.510 --> 01:17:20.145
I I mean, I think Casio would be even better in that situation because you wouldn't be using bolts or but also wouldn't have to deal with them having liquid BTC,

945
01:17:20.605 --> 01:17:26.625
and you would have to then switch back on chain. But all these different things, I mean, are I think are value additive.

946
01:17:27.805 --> 01:17:29.905
But the point of sale first of all, PeanutPal,

947
01:17:30.285 --> 01:17:31.745
you guys have the best names.

948
01:17:33.380 --> 01:17:34.600
All the nuts stuff.

949
01:17:35.460 --> 01:17:35.960
Yeah.

950
01:17:37.300 --> 01:17:43.720
What did is PeanutPal, like, more than just an it was just like a hackathon MVP, or is that actually, like, a working project?

951
01:17:44.525 --> 01:17:47.345
No. It's it's so it's definitely not ready for production.

952
01:17:47.725 --> 01:17:50.525
Okay. So and it would be way more,

953
01:17:50.925 --> 01:17:57.200
polished if it weren't for the so, basically, BDC plus plus hackathon was two hours. It was what like,

954
01:17:57.980 --> 01:17:59.500
hackathon two hours. Yeah.

955
01:18:00.220 --> 01:18:00.720
So,

956
01:18:02.300 --> 01:18:04.380
but, actually, it's it kinda works.

957
01:18:04.780 --> 01:18:27.895
I don't encourage anyone to use this. But because I needed the demo to work on, like, different devices because it has, like, remote point of sale, capabilities. Right? So you can have the point of sale main device on your desktop, for example, and then you open it on a on a mobile phone and connect it, and it will connect the Anasta, basically, and then you have, like, a a remote device that can create invoices in the name of the main device.

958
01:18:28.250 --> 01:18:35.050
And I because I needed to demo that on the on the, for the hackathon. It's actually live. You can go to peanutpal.com,

959
01:18:35.050 --> 01:18:41.025
and you can actually play around with it. But it and don't again, like, I don't encourage you to, like, put any real money on it,

960
01:18:41.585 --> 01:18:44.725
because it will break, at some point, 100%.

961
01:18:45.985 --> 01:18:51.605
But it's a cool MVP that showcases what awesome stuff can be built with Cashew. And I think,

962
01:18:52.705 --> 01:19:11.085
first of all, the I mean, I mean, like, the point of sale use case is is something that Casu really shines in, I think. But, also, I think next to the to showcasing that, it also showcase how much amazing stuff can be done with Casu within, like, such a short time frame. I mean, like, obviously, I've worked with this protocol for two years now.

963
01:19:11.545 --> 01:19:12.925
I'm probably, like, well

964
01:19:14.105 --> 01:19:19.565
well well versed when it comes to Cashew, but it's not that difficult. Right? There's, like Did you use MKStack

965
01:19:20.185 --> 01:19:22.605
did you use MKStack to vibe this?

966
01:19:23.510 --> 01:19:26.410
No. I used, it's pretty much everything is flawed.

967
01:19:27.990 --> 01:19:32.250
I didn't touch any UI code for this, by the way. That's why it looks generic.

968
01:19:32.630 --> 01:19:34.730
It's a super generic Vibe app.

969
01:19:35.364 --> 01:19:40.985
And I love that the first thing by the way, per our previous conversation, the first thing it asked me to do is write down my seed phrase.

970
01:19:43.445 --> 01:19:48.505
And I just I checked off I wrote down and verified, and I pressed the next. It did not write it down.

971
01:19:49.110 --> 01:19:58.969
I'm I'm not actually sure if I pushed the Mint Discovery, but maybe it even has the automatic Mint Discovery in there. You did. You had automatic Mint Discovery. I clicked many bits. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, you did.

972
01:19:59.750 --> 01:20:00.489
What else?

973
01:20:01.905 --> 01:20:11.045
This I mean, I, like, I do I love the BTCPay server project. I mean, personally, I've been a big supporter of them. Open SaaS has been a big supporter of them.

974
01:20:12.785 --> 01:20:13.925
I think, you know,

975
01:20:15.080 --> 01:20:17.340
it's also, you know, one of those foundational

976
01:20:17.800 --> 01:20:19.900
open source projects that is just

977
01:20:21.640 --> 01:20:23.100
it's just really essential,

978
01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:24.220
but

979
01:20:25.320 --> 01:20:26.460
it has grown

980
01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:27.340
quite

981
01:20:27.880 --> 01:20:28.380
large

982
01:20:29.055 --> 01:20:29.715
at this

983
01:20:30.094 --> 01:20:33.395
point. And I do think there's a place in the market for

984
01:20:35.695 --> 01:20:36.195
selling,

985
01:20:36.495 --> 01:20:45.670
you know, steak at your farmers market, and you just need, like, a quick and dirty point of sale that just works, that just goes to your cashew.me wallet.

986
01:20:46.050 --> 01:20:48.630
You know? It's just like and you just receive SaaS there.

987
01:20:49.410 --> 01:20:50.950
So what you're saying is that,

988
01:20:51.570 --> 01:20:58.310
BTC pay server is gonna be the SAP of the Bitcoin world, basically. Kinda. Yeah. Yeah. But open source.

989
01:20:59.155 --> 01:20:59.735
Of course. No. No.

990
01:21:01.395 --> 01:21:01.895
But,

991
01:21:02.835 --> 01:21:10.295
yeah, I mean, it's like, you just have to spend time. Like, no one's like I don't think people are, like, necessarily, like, spinning up a BTC pay server,

992
01:21:11.090 --> 01:21:15.110
and then they're, like, off to the races. Like, you have to like, you go down the rabbit hole and you

993
01:21:15.730 --> 01:21:22.390
look at through all the features and you tweak it and you iterate over time and you add this and you add that and you run a lightning node and you do that.

994
01:21:24.255 --> 01:21:30.435
And it's cool. I mean, you can run a Wasabi coordinator through BTCPay server. There's just a lot of things going on there.

995
01:21:31.054 --> 01:21:33.475
And sometimes you just wanna sell four items

996
01:21:34.335 --> 01:21:35.554
on a point of sale

997
01:21:36.120 --> 01:21:40.219
and receive cashew and then be able to spend it anywhere Lightning's accepted.

998
01:21:40.760 --> 01:21:48.300
You know? And And that's kind of the idea with PeanutPal. Right? I I say I think the use case of PeanutPal is much more like the flea market

999
01:21:48.724 --> 01:21:49.945
than is the

1000
01:21:50.885 --> 01:21:52.344
the, like, three,

1001
01:21:52.965 --> 01:22:03.224
like, big, big business enterprise stuff that needs invoicing and everything. It's just like, hey. I I have some stuff I wanna sell. And at the end of the day, I wanna see how much money I made, and that's it, basically.

1002
01:22:04.099 --> 01:22:07.960
Yeah. And then we've gone through don't jump through all the, like, hoops.

1003
01:22:08.659 --> 01:22:14.260
Yeah. I mean, Tesla, like, used b like, forked BTCPay server to, like, sell cars with

1004
01:22:14.900 --> 01:22:15.639
for Bitcoin.

1005
01:22:16.335 --> 01:22:24.015
Yeah. I remember that. Thanks. Yeah. Because it's like and they submitted actually vulnerability reports or whatever to it, which is pretty cool. But,

1006
01:22:24.975 --> 01:22:29.790
there's, like, just two different use cases. Like, that's not the guy who's selling eggs at the farmer's market.

1007
01:22:30.910 --> 01:22:31.410
Okay.

1008
01:22:32.910 --> 01:22:34.290
This has been a great conversation.

1009
01:22:37.550 --> 01:22:44.450
I would love to do this more often. I don't know. Like, every six months or a year or something. Okay. Awesome.

1010
01:22:45.085 --> 01:22:45.585
Of

1011
01:22:45.885 --> 01:22:46.605
course. And,

1012
01:22:47.725 --> 01:22:48.865
but before we wrap,

1013
01:22:49.805 --> 01:22:52.305
what are you most excited about right now in the space?

1014
01:22:52.925 --> 01:22:53.985
Cashier or otherwise?

1015
01:22:56.960 --> 01:23:00.320
Yeah. I mean, like, obviously, it it must be cash's stuff. Right?

1016
01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:08.580
Getting bolt 12 in is is just a super cool thing that the velocity of the protocol, I mean, like I said this before, is is is insane.

1017
01:23:10.785 --> 01:23:26.820
We're working super super like, not not not I'm I'm not working on that, but, like, team is working on on getting CDK everywhere. We're talking about CDK summer here building building, like, bindings to different programming languages for, like, CDK, the cache development kit written in Rust.

1018
01:23:27.360 --> 01:23:39.525
And that kinda is the the goal is basically to be able to put cache everywhere. Like, if if, like, Amethyst devs wants to put, like, want to put it in in Amethyst, it should be just, like, one single package that you import, and then

1019
01:23:40.804 --> 01:23:47.225
it's done. So bindings for everything is definitely something that I'm super excited for because we will see so many Cashew,

1020
01:23:48.165 --> 01:23:50.425
wallets and implementations bloom from that,

1021
01:23:50.804 --> 01:23:52.905
and then just, like, general protocol development.

1022
01:23:53.480 --> 01:24:05.260
With Bold 12, man, if, like, Bold 12 had more adoption, we wouldn't need n pop dot cache anymore. Right? People could just, like, put a Bold 12 Yeah. Offer somewhere, and then it would just work or something like that. What's your opinion on Bold 12 adoption?

1023
01:24:06.655 --> 01:24:08.034
There's none. Right?

1024
01:24:08.975 --> 01:24:13.315
I don't know. Yeah. I mean, it's been it's been super hype. Like, I like it in practice.

1025
01:24:13.775 --> 01:24:14.275
I

1026
01:24:14.735 --> 01:24:18.755
mean, like, I remember that I was super so I was running I was running LND

1027
01:24:19.135 --> 01:24:24.830
way back in the day, basically, and I switched to CLN because CLN had the, like, experimental bolt 12 support.

1028
01:24:25.210 --> 01:24:29.310
I was super hyphened. That must be, like, I think, '22 or something.

1029
01:24:30.010 --> 01:24:34.830
And I did that. And ever since then, I've not touched bolt 12 again. Yes.

1030
01:24:35.855 --> 01:24:44.435
Yeah. I mean, the dream of bolt 12 is you're not you don't have to run an Allen URL server, a separate server for, like, the lightning address,

1031
01:24:44.895 --> 01:24:47.635
and the invoices are reusable. So, basically,

1032
01:24:48.015 --> 01:24:49.715
like, I would just have, like, a string

1033
01:24:50.380 --> 01:24:55.680
that if someone had that in their contact list or I could have attached to my end pub, that they could just constantly send me payments.

1034
01:24:56.460 --> 01:24:59.120
Yeah. Like, I think Nasr actually does kind

1035
01:24:59.500 --> 01:25:07.054
of solve a little piece of that, which is like, okay. Well, you have a reusable payment string, but, like, how do I actually discover your reusable payment string?

1036
01:25:07.355 --> 01:25:08.815
And that could be via Nasr.

1037
01:25:09.514 --> 01:25:09.915
Yeah.

1038
01:25:10.554 --> 01:25:12.074
But, yeah, we don't really have, like

1039
01:25:13.514 --> 01:25:35.315
and these things take time, but, like, the end user wallet I guess that's why it's important that you guys have support for it now. Right? Like, I guess, cashew.me will be be able to spend to both 12 hopefully soon. Is that the plan? Or and receive I yes. I mean, like, the client side is very, very easy. I think Mint support is is what will take a bit longer because the Mint actually needs to do the lighting stuff. Right?

1040
01:25:35.855 --> 01:25:43.635
So the Mint support is probably gonna take a bit longer, but it's there, and it's it's working. So with back end step, if if Mints actually upgrade,

1041
01:25:44.495 --> 01:25:47.315
they would be able to support it, and it would work. So,

1042
01:25:47.850 --> 01:25:49.390
that's that would be pretty cool.

1043
01:25:50.010 --> 01:25:50.510
Yeah.

1044
01:25:51.050 --> 01:25:52.750
Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

1045
01:25:54.170 --> 01:25:58.590
Like, we can't I don't think we can use both 12 for zaps if we want the social signal.

1046
01:26:05.525 --> 01:26:06.264
Why not?

1047
01:26:07.525 --> 01:26:15.945
So, I mean, you mean, like, you mean, like, putting it in your bio and then just, like, have people no. No. No. That's true. No. No. No. Because the best part of Zaps,

1048
01:26:16.320 --> 01:26:17.780
the reason Zaps work

1049
01:26:18.640 --> 01:26:19.380
is because,

1050
01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:22.980
when when

1051
01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:26.560
Lan Tungir zaps 420

1052
01:26:26.560 --> 01:26:30.720
SaaS and says, let's go, I know it's Lan Tungir that's zapping 420

1053
01:26:30.720 --> 01:26:32.655
SaaS and saying, let's go because there's

1054
01:26:33.195 --> 01:26:39.435
a a data exchange that's happening there. And then the nostril receipt is being sent out. Can we do that with bulb 12 too? Or

1055
01:26:40.395 --> 01:26:41.455
No. And we shouldn't.

1056
01:26:42.074 --> 01:27:20.030
We should like, this should be cashew nuts. Like, the the the spec is there. Right? Nutzaps and NIP 60 So you think we should switch to Nutzaps altogether? Native cashew? Percent. Yes. 100%. Because it's and, like, it is in in in in every aspect, it's, like, so much I mean, like, I get the whole this is custodian, and let's not, like Yeah. Let's not open that box. Right? It's like, that's a whole different a whole different story. But because the reality is that I I don't know if, like, there's new updates on it, but, like, there was this pie chart once with, like, all the different Zap addresses that were used. It was, like, I don't know, 40% wall of Satoshi or something and, like Yeah. So let's not just

1057
01:27:20.969 --> 01:27:24.670
for the sake of let let's not talk about that. But, like, from the implementation

1058
01:27:25.130 --> 01:27:25.630
standpoint,

1059
01:27:26.570 --> 01:27:28.235
from the implementation standpoint,

1060
01:27:28.695 --> 01:27:48.980
a nuts app is so much better than what we currently have where, like, you talk to the lightning provider, and then it gives you back and you give it an event and it signs it back and then publishes a different event. Like like, 57 is super complicated. Right. Like, it's, like, so much moving forward. The Nasr receipts aren't sent the Zap receipts

1061
01:27:49.440 --> 01:27:54.740
fail to send or your Relay doesn't pick it up. The other thing I I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong,

1062
01:27:56.720 --> 01:28:00.074
right now, we can't there's there's no way

1063
01:28:01.094 --> 01:28:10.155
for an external user to verify if a Zap is actually real because the Nasdaq receipt broadcaster could just be lying about receiving a Zap.

1064
01:28:10.700 --> 01:28:13.520
But we could probably do verifiable zaps with

1065
01:28:13.820 --> 01:28:15.120
with Cashew. Right?

1066
01:28:15.740 --> 01:28:21.920
And one, like, 100% out of the box without doing anything. The Yeah. So if I if I put if you have an Osiposa

1067
01:28:22.635 --> 01:28:38.610
and I lock a token to your to your public key and I just put it in the comments and write a comment to next to it, that's the nuts app. There's a token there. Everyone that everyone that sees it, even though they're not be able to spend it, can verify that this is a valid token. Locked to the end part.

1068
01:28:39.090 --> 01:28:45.590
And it's locked to the end part. It's not spendable by me. It must be 100 valid. It it includes, like, smart cryptography

1069
01:28:46.210 --> 01:28:55.244
that lets people verify this without talking to the mint if they know the mint's key sets. But they even could ask the Mint whether this is unspent and real.

1070
01:28:55.705 --> 01:28:56.205
And,

1071
01:28:56.985 --> 01:28:57.485
so

1072
01:28:57.945 --> 01:29:02.764
it it just I mean, that for that alone, it's cool. I mean, I feel like every new Nasr user

1073
01:29:03.304 --> 01:29:07.760
always comes up with the same idea. I've seen it click in their head a million times, which is like,

1074
01:29:08.220 --> 01:29:10.880
well, what if we just had an algorithm that was,

1075
01:29:11.260 --> 01:29:13.760
these are the posts that have gotten the most zapped?

1076
01:29:14.140 --> 01:29:16.000
And if as it currently stands,

1077
01:29:16.540 --> 01:29:19.600
like, if Noster had any kind of significant adoption,

1078
01:29:19.955 --> 01:29:23.115
that would be the most game stat ever. It already is Yes.

1079
01:29:23.555 --> 01:29:24.455
Somewhat gamed.

1080
01:29:25.875 --> 01:29:32.935
But Didn't didn't it would be the most do that at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's our resident let's game things while we have 12 users.

1081
01:29:33.955 --> 01:29:34.455
But,

1082
01:29:35.390 --> 01:29:36.930
yeah, he already gamed it,

1083
01:29:37.550 --> 01:29:38.050
and

1084
01:29:38.510 --> 01:29:43.650
and there's no way for people to verify. And there's, like we could do lipstick on the pig stuff

1085
01:29:43.950 --> 01:29:47.410
where it's like you white list certain l and URL servers. Right?

1086
01:29:48.405 --> 01:29:50.985
Like, obviously, like, as as operator

1087
01:29:51.445 --> 01:29:53.465
as as one of the operators of Primal,

1088
01:29:54.085 --> 01:30:01.945
like, we know Primal isn't lying to Primal. So, like, if you're sending to a Primal address, like, we know that there's there's actually some signal there.

1089
01:30:03.080 --> 01:30:11.660
And you could have, like, a consortium or some shit. But I I think that's what we're trying to solve against. Like, we don't wanna have that. That would be so right now in practice,

1090
01:30:12.200 --> 01:30:24.225
zaps are, like, a cool signal, but, like, you can't you gotta take take them with a grain of salt. But if we did it with Cashew, that seems really compelling to me, especially, by the way, when we could store the nuts in the relays,

1091
01:30:24.925 --> 01:30:26.465
then you just got the whole

1092
01:30:27.245 --> 01:30:38.580
whole thing. You can store the nuts in the device. Right? I mean, like, that's it's a that that would be the next step. Right? But it it even stand alone, it solves the onboarding problem because you don't need the IP address.

1093
01:30:39.120 --> 01:30:54.375
If you if you have an also profile, I can send you a nuts up. And and it's already part of the protocol. People should just implement it. I think it's in every system. Like, it is better than than the than the current Well, this might be the first that might be the first Nasdaq civil war

1094
01:30:54.949 --> 01:30:56.090
over, NetSachs.

1095
01:30:57.909 --> 01:31:01.850
There have been many. There have been many on GitHub already, I think.

1096
01:31:02.389 --> 01:31:08.330
Yeah. But the first major one. I mean, that Yeah. I mean, it would be a it would be a big split on the client side.

1097
01:31:10.175 --> 01:31:13.155
Yeah. That's true. Be very it'd be a user facing war.

1098
01:31:13.775 --> 01:31:15.075
Right? Like, yeah.

1099
01:31:15.615 --> 01:31:22.890
It wouldn't just be devs arguing about protocol specs. It would act it would actually be like, I can't zap you or I can zap you.

1100
01:31:26.170 --> 01:31:27.310
Okay. Aggie,

1101
01:31:28.010 --> 01:31:31.390
this is great. I enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed it as much as me.

1102
01:31:32.010 --> 01:31:32.510
Absolutely.

1103
01:31:32.970 --> 01:31:33.790
It was a blast.

1104
01:31:34.330 --> 01:31:38.270
This is great, Freaks. Thanks for joining the live chat. You guys make the show special.

1105
01:31:39.105 --> 01:31:41.285
Thank you to everyone who donated Sats.

1106
01:31:41.905 --> 01:31:44.725
I appreciate it. You keep the show ad free,

1107
01:31:45.105 --> 01:31:46.005
sponsor free.

1108
01:31:48.945 --> 01:31:53.845
If you don't have Sats to spare, the best way to support dispatch is to share with friends and family.

1109
01:31:54.170 --> 01:31:58.750
Just open up their phone, go into their podcast app, press the subscribe search ciel dispatch,

1110
01:31:59.210 --> 01:32:03.150
press the subscribe button. All the links are at cieldispatch.com.

1111
01:32:03.210 --> 01:32:07.150
Then they'll be like they'll open up their podcast app. They're like, who the hell is Aggie?

1112
01:32:07.605 --> 01:32:10.905
What am I listening to? They have no idea what's going on, but, hopefully,

1113
01:32:11.525 --> 01:32:21.865
it'll go through, and they'll just they'll slowly start to figure things out, and we'll test the things out. Next week, I'm gonna do a show. I don't know who I'm doing it with. I don't know when I'm doing it,

1114
01:32:22.750 --> 01:32:25.410
but I will I will line up a show for you guys,

1115
01:32:25.870 --> 01:32:27.330
and I'll notify you

1116
01:32:27.950 --> 01:32:30.450
on Noster about when that's gonna be.

1117
01:32:31.310 --> 01:32:31.810
Maggie,

1118
01:32:32.750 --> 01:32:34.850
final thoughts to wrap us off?

1119
01:32:36.075 --> 01:32:36.795
It was,

1120
01:32:37.355 --> 01:32:41.135
absolute fun times. Again, like, I'm happy to come back anytime.

1121
01:32:42.395 --> 01:32:50.081
If you are a developer, again, like, look into Cashew. It's super fun to build with. And if you're a user, also look into Cashew. It's super fun to use.

1122
01:32:51.521 --> 01:32:53.861
And, yeah, enjoy the rest of your nights, guys.

1123
01:32:54.561 --> 01:32:56.822
Love it. Stay on, bull, StackSats. Peace.