CD171: CALLE - BITCHAT AND CASHU

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 07/30/2025 19:44:41
Duration: 6744.235
Channels: 1

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What's the end game for you? Is it just to buy as much Bitcoin as you can and hold it for as long as possible and never sell it?

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That's one of the goals. Yes. But I think what makes us different than a lot of these other businesses is we plan to build Bitcoin products as well. I mean, the founding group is Tether and myself. I founded in Lead Strike as one of the bigger Bitcoin financial services firms in the world. Tether, obviously, is one of the most impressive companies in the history of humanity, but specifically in building massive cash flows within the space. So Paolo and I, before we were CEOs, we were engineers. We built a lot of products. And so we plan to not only acquire as much Bitcoin as possible, raising capital and all sorts of deep capital pools, but also build products, build technology, build tools. I think when people eventually think of '21, it's are they a competitor to Coinbase? Are they competitor to strategy? For us, why not both? We think we have that potential. Do you envision a future where Bitcoin treasury companies such as strategy, Mara,

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and you guys

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end up buying so much Bitcoin that there really isn't actually much left out there on the open market for people to trade? After all, it is a fixed number of Bitcoin, so no more will be created once it reaches that number. Right. You know what's fascinating about the asset, and it's not intuitive because it's so rare, is that to your point, it is definitively scarce.

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So if everyone in the world wanted an iPhone, Apple could make more. If everyone in the world wanted a McDonald's cheeseburger, McDonald's could make more. The fact that Bitcoin cannot increase its supply means the new supply comes from the market. If you want more Bitcoin, you don't go to the Bitcoin factory to get one. You have to go up in price. Is there enough Bitcoin for me at a 120,000?

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No. Okay. $130,140,

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150. So I tell you what, there's always Bitcoin available. Just depends on what you're willing to pay for it. And so what I think will happen is this price will continue to discover higher because Bitcoin is the scarcest thing. It's inelastic to the amount of demand that searches for it. So the amount of buying power that we're seeing from the capital markets, from the ETFs, and potentially from nation states like The United States, I think they'll find the supply they're looking for. They're just gonna have to go get it at a higher price.

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Happy Bitcoin Wednesday,

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freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another

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Citadel dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show focused on actual Bitcoin

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and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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That intro clip was Jack Mallers

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of strike and twenty one talking about how Bitcoin is gonna go much higher,

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which I tend to agree with.

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As always, huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show with Bitcoin.

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Dispatch is ad free, sponsor free, purely supported by viewers like you

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with Bitcoin donations.

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All relevant links are at citadeldispatch.com.

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We're on YouTube.

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We're on Twitch. We're on every podcast app.

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We stream to x through the ten thirty one funds x account as well

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since my partner at ten thirty one, Jonathan, blue checked himself for that privilege.

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Top two supporters of last week was through the fountain podcast apps. We have Poopsicle with a thousand sats, said, Sedillo dispatch is my go to podcast when sitting on the toilet, and we had ride or die freak,

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Mav twenty one

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zapped us on the Nostra,

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on the Nostra video, zapped us a thousand sats. You can find all the videos

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of dispatch signed and hashed,

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zappable at primal.net/citadel.

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With all that said,

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we have

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our good friend, returned guest, absolute legend,

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newly discovered Twitter influencer,

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Cali. How's it going?

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Hey, man. How's it going? Thanks for that kind intro.

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I'm BlueTech now.

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You're BlueTech now. Congratulations. How does it feel?

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It feels like, you know, it feels like something you wanna, have a shower after.

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I didn't choose my blue check. I think Twitter has some kind of weird algorithm, so they put a blue check on you even if you don't want one.

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I always pride myself that I didn't have one because I don't wanna play pay to play games. And you can't remove it.

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Here we are. No. Can't remove it. But I can write not a can write long posts now, which means I can send e cash over over Twitter.

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It's not,

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Yeah. I mean, obviously, it was a a bit of a troll. You're most well known for,

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being the creator and lead maintainer of Cashew

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and now being one of the co maintainers of BitChat,

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which is what we'll be talking about. But just on the x thing for a moment, it's actually not a weird algo. It the incentives are actually

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very clear.

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If you have more than 2,500

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bluechecks following you, they automatically give you a blue check because they want every

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high value account to have a blue check to sell more blue checks to the low value accounts.

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It's bad, man.

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It's it's what what they did to me right before I deleted,

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which I guess I thought you were still on Twitter.

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It was, like, four hundred and seventy days ago or something like that.

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Maybe four ninety.

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I thought you were still on Twitter.

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No. See, I'm there in spirit because I have

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Jack. I have Mallers,

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who's a way better spokesperson to the normie crowd and the suit crowd. He's acts absolutely been crushing it on the Mallers Show and CNBC and Bloomberg. And then I have you there who's a way better spokesperson

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for privacy and freedom money than I could ever be. And as long as I can support both of you from behind the scenes,

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then I accomplish all my goals in terms of the movement without actually having to

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expose myself there.

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Very appreciated. Thank you for the kind words, and don't even think about coaching.

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You can carry the torch.

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Let's start with BitChat because I feel like BitChat's having its absolute moment.

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Dorsey,

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I guess, Vibe coded it over a weekend,

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released it out onto the Internet.

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The test flight immediately

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got filled up because he released an iPhone only test flight, and the App Store approval was taking a while.

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I think TestFlight maxes out at about 10,000 people.

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Then you vibe coded

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an Android version,

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native Android version, which then you released.

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And since then, now it's on the actual

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iOS app store. So you can get it on both iOS and Android. But the point is is, like, I haven't seen

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the the crazy organic viral hype around it was was

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pretty impressive. I mean, obviously, Dorsey has one of the largest x accounts in the world,

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but,

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I don't think anyone was expecting

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that kind of excitement.

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Yeah. It it caught on pretty quickly. I'm I'm not sure if Jack expected,

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that kind of resonance as well.

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And, I mean, for those who don't know, maybe we should start with the basics. So,

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BitChat

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is a Bluetooth based mesh

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chat app. It allows you

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to chat with anyone who's close by, close enough to be in your Bluetooth range that is, let's say, like, 30 meters or so. But it also builds a mesh with anyone around you. So it's it's similar to, like, find my with iPhones, for example, or when you lose your AirPods or something, they can talk,

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to your phone even if you're far away. And they do that by talking to other iPhones that are close by and then get through the Internet.

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BitChat allows you to build mesh networks of people around you to build, like, a larger mesh so you can chat with, like, people that are

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further away than what your iPhone can reach,

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and those are individual meshes.

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So this concept is is pretty cool because it doesn't use Internet.

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It is

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kind of very different from all the other chat or messaging apps that people are used to, and I think that might also be the reason why

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so many people found it interesting.

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Also for completeness, it should be said that this is not the first

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mesh based or Bluetooth based chat app out there. There have been a couple before.

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Some some listeners might remember

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Firechat.

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This has

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been maybe ten years ago or something where

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they also tried to do something similar, built an app, that works over mesh, and it's been, like, even in the

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the Hong Kong protests

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that were, you know, before COVID and, like, couple years before COVID when they started, those were very important tools for the people on the street, on the ground because they needed a way to talk to each other without using the Internet.

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So all in all, it's a very different kind of chat app, and that might also explain why so many people found it interesting. I guess most people that heard of it, of BitChat,

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didn't know of their predecessors.

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And

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yeah. So I think now

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Jack has released it on the iOS App Store

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a year a a day ago or so.

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It's already in the top 100 free apps in The US. It has surpassed,

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even signal as in the free social app category. It's kind of, like, just trending upwards or as, Jack Mallers would say, it discovers

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higher places in the App Store ranking.

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So

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super exciting.

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And that's for the, for the iPhone for the iPhone version,

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that that Jack built.

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I saw that. I found it very interesting too. So I saw it the same, like, the on the same day as anyone else. I didn't know that he was working on this.

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And when I saw it, I really liked it a lot. I also liked Firechat and all the predecessors before things like Meshtastic, for example. I'm just a big fan

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of alternative

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infrastructure

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and things to circumvent ISPs and build, like,

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alternative,

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in quotation

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marks, like, Internet applications,

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although this is not Internet, obviously.

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So I found this super interesting.

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I looked at it, saw it. Like, I I got into the into the test flight on my on my iPhone and on my Mac. I'm

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playing around with it, but I'm

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not, like, primarily an iOS person.

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So I thought, well, if he can do it, I can probably do it too. And sat down, took

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most like, all of his codes, fed it into an LLM, tried to analyze it, came up with an implementation plan, and then just wiped my

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wiped my way through it. And it probably took me,

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like, half a day or so to get a working version that could

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send and receive messages with the iOS version,

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which is insane. Like,

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I'm very happy to talk about the development cycle and the way we built this app.

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Jack built the iOS version. I built the Android version

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because it's it's a completely different way of building stuff.

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It's it's been incredible also for me as a seasoned developer.

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It's been an insane experience to be able to see that that you can just

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really do things in a in an extremely fast and efficient way these days using AI if you're willing to

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basically, like, go all in and fight with with the agent.

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Yes. I mean, I think there's a lot to unpack there.

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First off,

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so just, like, a quick overview because there is

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because it's hit,

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the mainstream hype cycle, I think there's a lot of just general confusion over what mesh is, and I think you did a good explanation. But just to sum it up for the Americans listening,

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Like, Bluetooth has about a 100 foot range. Right? So Cali said meters. That's what the rest of the world uses.

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Bluetooth has a 100 foot range.

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Everyone you're communicating doesn't have to be in the 100 foot range. Out of the the most simple explanation,

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imagine I'm standing somewhere. I got bitch out open.

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Callie's a 100 feet away from me, and then Bob is a 100 feet away from Callie. I can still communicate to Bob because it relays through

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Callie who's, you know, equidistant between us. But you can imagine, like, a web kind of developing

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among people where it could then expand out,

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particularly in places like cities, high density areas,

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festivals,

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sporting events,

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places that

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historically

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well, sporting events and festivals historically have had issues with cell connection and Wi Fi connection and stuff like that, but they have high density people.

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Disaster situations, you might not have Internet.

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In situations where government is trying to

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oppress people,

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one of the first things they do nowadays is cut the Internet. We saw Iran recently do this,

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while the the war was going on with Israel and and Trump was bombing them.

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They cut the Internet so that their people couldn't communicate.

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In those types of situation, mesh can be very helpful.

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Now in your example, you used,

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find my the find my network on Apple as an example.

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I think another example

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would be, like, their AirDrop feature where you can send files and stuff between people, which was actually also used in China. But then after pressure from the Chinese government,

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they Apple heavily limited it globally.

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But the the interesting aspect of the Find My thing is

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it does have, like, this

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automatic seamless Internet bridge

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where if I walk past your your stolen or lost,

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AirPods

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and I'm connected to the Internet, it will then ping the Internet with the location. So it uses near term

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communication

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like Bluetooth,

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in proximity, but then it bridges out to the Internet.

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Is there a play I mean, obviously,

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in good times, I think

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or in, really, in any type of situation, if one person's in the mesh, ideally, if if one person in the mesh has the ability to connect to the Internet, that could be quite powerful for everyone that is that is using that mesh to then be able to communicate with the outside world.

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Is that one of the plans in place, for this going forward?

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Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So as you said,

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right now, it's useful for for high density

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situations where you have a bunch of people around you and you wanna communicate. This This can also be, by the way, devices that don't have Internet by themselves. For example, a computer without a SIM card inside. Right? So you can also use it on your on your desktop computer or your laptop

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to talk to other laptops even if you don't have an Internet connection.

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So as you said, like, you made a couple of really good examples of where where

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this might be useful,

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in, like, a sports stadium.

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Could be a a flight

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or a kind of disaster situation.

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But

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yeah. So since you'll always be limited

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to be able to reach people in your range or a couple hops away from your range because of this, mesh

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and the the size of the mesh.

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I think, like, you'll probably be able to reach a couple 100,

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people, maybe a few thousand.

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I it's hard to say because

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we haven't been able to really stress test it with a bunch of people yet. You gotta test it in the sports stadium. That's like the Yeah. We're we're we're definitely gonna test it in the next BTC plus plus, conference that is that is approaching soon. So,

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like, a combinations of, like, congregations of, many Bitcoiners is is a great way to test it. By the way, just like a little segue, I I will come to your question. But,

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like, thinking of of Bitcoin Core,

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so,

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a a phone's a phone's Bluetooth

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chip is typically limited by,

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by, I think, to, around eight connections

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per chip. So at least on Android, it's, it's around eight connections.

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And with eight connections, you'll never be able to reach everyone. Right? And, coincidentally,

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Bitcoin d itself is also limited to eight inbound connections.

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So with with eight inbound connections,

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it is kind of possible to reach the entire world because

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if, if the connectivity is is heterogeneous enough,

219
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then, the the network that forms around people is dense enough to reach almost anyone.

220
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Eight or seven hops is also that, that famous number

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of,

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of hop hops of separation between any two people in the world if you follow friend networks,

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established before

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social social networks. So even in the in the nineties,

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you were able to reach anyone

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from anyone to anyone sending, let's say,

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like a letter, a written letter,

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over seven hops on average. So that number is itself okay.

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The number of connections doesn't need to be drastically higher to get a big reach.

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But,

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for Bluetooth, you're mainly limited by the range of the individual connection, and it's,

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it's basic you can't assume that you'll be able to cover the entire planet if you don't add, like, a bunch of new hardware and then also improve routing a lot. So routing is also one of the big problems that we can talk about. Now coming to your question,

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00:18:47.980 --> 00:19:04.505
obviously, that you you can imagine this as individual, like, islands of meshes. That could be your neighborhood and my neighborhood, and we're very far away, but we're both in a dense populated area, so we can talk to our neighbors. But how do I now talk to you over a bit chat? And then we need something else that connects our meshes.

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And there are multiple ideas of people that, like, that proposed,

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different ways of doing that already.

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So, for example, one guy, I think, two days ago or something popped up,

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he's built

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kind of a,

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amplifier for this whole thing, such like a dedicated device that can connect to all the,

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BitChat devices around you, but but can also make one connection very far away to another mesh. And if there's

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one other guy with a similar device, it could also be Meshtastic, by the way. It's a different mesh network that has long range connections.

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Then you can imagine situations where you can connect different meshes still without using the Internet. So there are ways to do that, and there are multiple

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people working on multiple different

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ways of trying that out. And we'll we'll see how that goes, and I'm I'm

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optimistic that it can be useful.

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Now,

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obviously, the best network, the biggest network that we have is the Internet. So, yes, can we use the Internet? Can we can we do the same thing as your iPhone does to your AirPods, for example? Your AirPods talk

248
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to the Internet using one single hop to to to a nearby iPhone, and that iPhone then transmits the location to the Apple network.

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And,

250
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so the answer there is, yes. We can do that. And the plan actually is to use Nasr for it. So what we wanna do is

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have individual meshes,

252
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that can be located in different places.

253
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We still have to think about how to

254
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how to identify these meshes, whether a mesh needs to be,

255
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like, its own dedicated thing. Does it need an ID? Does a mesh need a location?

256
00:20:50.190 --> 00:20:53.250
But if if we can address a mesh,

257
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then we can also build connections between meshes.

258
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Right now, what, I think is being worked on is a direct connection between two people. So if I meet you, let's say, offline,

259
00:21:05.750 --> 00:21:10.650
in a in a sports stadium and we connect over, our BigChat apps,

260
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and then I I,

261
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press on the favorite button, like, when we chat, there's a encrypted chat between us,

262
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that has great privacy.

263
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But I can press, like, a favorite button, and I can remember your your public key key, essentially.

264
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And then after we met, we can go separate ways, and you can go home, I can go home. And as long as, like, there is Internet

265
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on our on both of our phones

266
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and, the app detects that we're not close by,

267
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then it will use Nasr to talk to the other guy. So that will be a person to person connection

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going over Nasr

269
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and, will be very different from other Nasr reps,

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and it will, like, not be connected to your social identity and so on at least for now.

271
00:21:55.895 --> 00:22:01.275
But it can use this existing Internet network to connect, these two people.

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And now a natural extension of this,

273
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as you already hinted,

274
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is

275
00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:11.010
now I wanna like, let's say my friend

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00:22:11.789 --> 00:22:16.435
who, doesn't have Internet wants to talk to you, and I do have Internet,

277
00:22:17.135 --> 00:22:22.355
and you're far away. So can my friend now use my phone's Internet to talk to you

278
00:22:22.735 --> 00:22:34.850
similar to the Find My network? And I think, like, that's that's gonna also be a thing where inside your mesh, you're just gonna look for one of the devices that has Internet and then use that Internet connection to, for example, make,

279
00:22:36.590 --> 00:22:39.570
establish a communication channel with someone else over Nasr.

280
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So, yeah, long winded

281
00:22:42.235 --> 00:22:42.735
but,

282
00:22:43.235 --> 00:22:48.575
yeah, detailed, way of saying, yes. It's it's a plan. We wanna extend the range

283
00:22:48.875 --> 00:22:50.575
of these, meshes

284
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basically to infinity as long as there is an Internet connection as well.

285
00:22:59.320 --> 00:22:59.820
Awesome.

286
00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:06.220
Yeah. I mean, if if I wanna if if we want a real example of this here

287
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is,

288
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we recently had that hurricane or, I guess, maybe it was a tropical storm

289
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that hit North Carolina

290
00:23:16.775 --> 00:23:17.915
and Eastern Tennessee,

291
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and created a ton of devastation, knocked out Internet for everybody.

292
00:23:23.550 --> 00:23:24.050
And,

293
00:23:25.310 --> 00:23:29.330
I mean, they're still trying to recover now. I it was almost a year ago.

294
00:23:29.790 --> 00:23:31.810
Maybe it was, like, in September ish,

295
00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:35.170
when it happened, so a little bit less than a year ago.

296
00:23:35.550 --> 00:23:36.610
But at the time,

297
00:23:37.505 --> 00:23:42.005
there was actually a lot of work on the ground to bring meshtastic devices in,

298
00:23:42.544 --> 00:23:43.284
to connect

299
00:23:43.904 --> 00:23:46.325
the local communities to each other to coordinate,

300
00:23:47.745 --> 00:23:53.690
disaster relief. But, also, at the same time, there was people bringing in STARLINKS, and it was really hard to get Starlinks.

301
00:23:54.070 --> 00:23:54.970
Like, you

302
00:23:55.830 --> 00:23:59.370
know, the the best time to own a Starlink is before you need it,

303
00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:03.049
not when the disaster is going on. But in this

304
00:24:03.510 --> 00:24:09.155
in this scheme, if you could imagine a situation where one person in the community had a Starlink,

305
00:24:10.735 --> 00:24:13.635
and then a thousand people in the community had BitChat,

306
00:24:14.015 --> 00:24:15.375
and there was some kind of way

307
00:24:17.375 --> 00:24:27.280
and so so that one person with Starlink had BitChat and was connected to his own Starlink Wi Fi, then all of a sudden that entire mesh would have access to the rest of the world without,

308
00:24:28.860 --> 00:24:30.480
everyone there needing a Starlink.

309
00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:35.660
Yeah. That's right. And especially for those kind of situations, like, you,

310
00:24:36.605 --> 00:24:40.865
even, like, the tiniest low bandwidth connection is super helpful.

311
00:24:41.165 --> 00:24:42.785
Like, in a disastrous situation,

312
00:24:43.245 --> 00:24:46.225
you don't wanna browse the web and download a YouTube

313
00:24:46.605 --> 00:24:47.985
video. You wanna

314
00:24:48.365 --> 00:24:51.345
ask, hey. Where where are the supplies? Or

315
00:24:51.889 --> 00:25:00.230
where is help needed? Like, those are short messages can go a long way in really bad situations. And that's what that's what people

316
00:25:00.610 --> 00:25:01.990
try to, reestablish

317
00:25:02.370 --> 00:25:05.429
in most cases. Right? So mesh meshtastic, for example,

318
00:25:06.405 --> 00:25:07.465
which is a great project.

319
00:25:07.925 --> 00:25:08.505
We also

320
00:25:09.445 --> 00:25:24.170
will limit you in the amount of data that you can transmit, but even a short text message itself can be extremely useful in that in that situation. But I wanna say, like, one more thing on on top, which is not only the utility of this whole,

321
00:25:25.190 --> 00:25:25.690
scheme

322
00:25:26.310 --> 00:25:31.210
in in a situation where where you have to depend on it, but also just,

323
00:25:31.910 --> 00:25:37.130
being able to build infrastructure that is not controlled by anyone. So this is kind of a cypherpunk

324
00:25:37.695 --> 00:25:38.195
principle

325
00:25:38.735 --> 00:25:40.195
way of thinking about it,

326
00:25:40.495 --> 00:25:40.995
is

327
00:25:41.615 --> 00:25:46.755
is the the Internet stack that we have. And in in last year's, especially with Bitcoin

328
00:25:47.294 --> 00:25:47.794
and

329
00:25:48.654 --> 00:25:49.794
things like Tor,

330
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.900
or alternative, like, ways of communicating

331
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:54.340
such as Meshtastic.

332
00:25:55.760 --> 00:26:06.185
We we have kind of a very good stack at this point where we can have, like, money that is not controlled by anyone, and we can have all these services. We have Nasr, which is

333
00:26:06.565 --> 00:26:11.705
key like, public key infrastructure where we can find each other and communicate with each other.

334
00:26:12.085 --> 00:26:19.050
The Achilles heel of the entire Internet stack is still the hardware level, like the the cables

335
00:26:19.429 --> 00:26:20.250
and the ISPs

336
00:26:20.710 --> 00:26:22.010
that control access

337
00:26:22.390 --> 00:26:27.290
to the Internet. Or for your phone, this is your SIM card provider, so your Internet provider.

338
00:26:27.830 --> 00:26:41.425
And these days, it's almost impossible to get access to the Internet without identifying. So the these networks are so monopolized, and it's so hard to become a new player in the Internet ISP game

339
00:26:42.350 --> 00:26:47.250
that we have converged to sit like, small amount small number of very big players

340
00:26:47.870 --> 00:27:06.455
and who can just dictate all the rules. And sometimes they even don't want to be as cruel as they need to be, but also, like, the government and the rules around just providing communication infrastructure forces them to basically KYC anyone who wants to use the Internet. Right? So

341
00:27:06.835 --> 00:27:10.934
in many parts of the world, you cannot get a SIM card anymore without registering

342
00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:12.960
and identifying yourself.

343
00:27:13.419 --> 00:27:13.900
And,

344
00:27:14.220 --> 00:27:19.679
and that, you know, that problem just propagates upwards. So it makes me it makes me really furious

345
00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:24.640
to think about this, but, like, so much of the Internet infrastructure that we have today,

346
00:27:25.635 --> 00:27:30.455
even an email address with Gmail, for example. Like, try to make an email address with Gmail

347
00:27:30.835 --> 00:27:37.255
without a phone number. It's basically impossible these days. So your phone number is tied to your identity,

348
00:27:37.760 --> 00:27:49.140
and there is no way out. You you have, like, almost no way to get a SIM card, and some people know how to do it, but most people don't. There's basically no way to get access to Internet without identifying. So just

349
00:27:50.044 --> 00:28:03.985
working on the infrastructure level is something extremely important. I think very, very hard problem to solve, and BitChat is not going to be the answer of, like, getting rid of the Internet infrastructure there. But at least having, like, a low bandwidth

350
00:28:05.730 --> 00:28:07.990
version of something that we can use without

351
00:28:08.450 --> 00:28:14.950
permission, without being able to, you know, shut it down remotely and so on is extremely important.

352
00:28:15.330 --> 00:28:15.830
So,

353
00:28:16.690 --> 00:28:21.684
that's why I'm a big fan of of these know, alternative projects as well. We mentioned Meshtastic,

354
00:28:21.985 --> 00:28:22.485
Firechat,

355
00:28:23.505 --> 00:28:28.325
and there are others as well. And, that's why it makes sense to work on something like BigChat

356
00:28:28.865 --> 00:28:29.365
because,

357
00:28:29.985 --> 00:28:32.884
we you cannot turn it off. You don't need

358
00:28:33.210 --> 00:28:34.030
access to,

359
00:28:35.289 --> 00:28:35.950
a, like,

360
00:28:36.650 --> 00:28:43.390
antenna that is controlled by by T Mobile or something. It's just literally the Bluetooth chip in your phone,

361
00:28:44.010 --> 00:28:50.804
that you own and the Bluetooth chip of your friend over there that they own, and that's it.

362
00:28:51.345 --> 00:28:54.085
We can communicate without having to ask for permission.

363
00:28:54.945 --> 00:28:55.825
That being said,

364
00:28:56.225 --> 00:29:00.325
I am aware that Bluetooth itself is not the most resilient infrastructure

365
00:29:01.105 --> 00:29:02.884
there is. This is just

366
00:29:03.190 --> 00:29:06.170
something inherent inherent to radio communication itself.

367
00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:07.450
Radio communication

368
00:29:08.310 --> 00:29:09.050
is not,

369
00:29:10.070 --> 00:29:10.730
is not,

370
00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:12.650
you know, invincible.

371
00:29:13.910 --> 00:29:16.170
Let's say you're in a protest situation

372
00:29:16.625 --> 00:29:20.325
where you're we can imagine the Hong Kong protests before,

373
00:29:20.865 --> 00:29:21.365
COVID,

374
00:29:22.465 --> 00:29:25.765
where you'll be able to talk to people around you, and

375
00:29:26.065 --> 00:29:28.885
the privacy will also be good enough so you can,

376
00:29:29.585 --> 00:29:30.885
you can do that safely.

377
00:29:31.800 --> 00:29:32.300
But

378
00:29:32.760 --> 00:29:38.380
if as long you know, as soon as there is someone with a big blaster that just just blasts electromagnetic,

379
00:29:39.320 --> 00:29:45.420
waves in the Bluetooth range, you can disrupt those channels also very easily with,

380
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:46.860
a lot of power.

381
00:29:47.385 --> 00:29:50.265
And, you know, governments know how to do that, and,

382
00:29:50.905 --> 00:29:53.645
they can also do the same also with your

383
00:29:54.345 --> 00:29:58.205
mobile connection and your your just your phone ISP, basically.

384
00:29:58.985 --> 00:30:00.125
So those jammers

385
00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:03.080
will still be able to turn off these networks,

386
00:30:03.940 --> 00:30:10.280
and it's very hard to defend against those because that's just how radio works and, you know, the the

387
00:30:10.660 --> 00:30:11.160
stronger

388
00:30:11.860 --> 00:30:14.040
your devices, the more it will

389
00:30:14.425 --> 00:30:17.245
kind of take away from everyone else trying to,

390
00:30:17.785 --> 00:30:19.565
to communicate on the same bandwidth.

391
00:30:20.265 --> 00:30:21.725
So, yeah, those are kind of

392
00:30:22.105 --> 00:30:23.725
a couple of the, properties

393
00:30:24.185 --> 00:30:24.845
of Bluetooth.

394
00:30:26.550 --> 00:30:27.050
But,

395
00:30:27.830 --> 00:30:35.930
maybe we'll find more ways to connect peer to peer in the future, maybe with Wi Fi direct and other technologies that offer similar properties.

396
00:30:39.845 --> 00:30:41.385
I mean, yeah, talking about

397
00:30:43.845 --> 00:30:45.945
the vulnerabilities of current infrastructure

398
00:30:46.325 --> 00:30:46.825
and,

399
00:30:48.725 --> 00:30:50.105
trying to block access.

400
00:30:51.044 --> 00:30:52.105
One of the things

401
00:30:52.570 --> 00:30:57.470
I've noticed at both civil dispatch and rabbit hole recap, my two shows that,

402
00:30:58.410 --> 00:30:59.230
stream live,

403
00:31:00.890 --> 00:31:02.350
to Nasr on ZapStream,

404
00:31:03.290 --> 00:31:04.910
is that we get hit with DDoSes

405
00:31:05.210 --> 00:31:06.030
every time

406
00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:07.390
we go live,

407
00:31:08.035 --> 00:31:12.055
which is a nice validation by someone with resources that hates me.

408
00:31:12.995 --> 00:31:20.695
But they cannot stop the signal because everything will get published to the podcast apps after the fact, and we are still live on YouTube

409
00:31:21.555 --> 00:31:22.295
even though

410
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:25.580
dispatch has shadow been there.

411
00:31:26.760 --> 00:31:34.620
So you can just search Siddle dispatch in YouTube if you want to follow the stream there. It looks like ZapStream has just come back online.

412
00:31:35.015 --> 00:31:37.755
Wouldn't be surprised if it goes back offline again.

413
00:31:40.535 --> 00:31:45.895
But, yeah, everything gets posted to Nostra afterwards. It's harder to stop that. So you can go to primal.net/citadel

414
00:31:45.895 --> 00:31:51.400
or search Citadel dispatch in your favorite Nostra app or your favorite podcast app to see the recordings after the fact.

415
00:31:52.020 --> 00:31:53.720
I have a question for you, Kelly.

416
00:31:54.740 --> 00:31:56.840
I mean, well, on the protest piece,

417
00:31:57.220 --> 00:31:59.720
one of the things we do see is because,

418
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:04.654
cell connections have been the primary means of communication for modern day protests

419
00:32:05.034 --> 00:32:10.575
is that they run stingrays, which are basically mobile cell towers and have you connect to them instead of,

420
00:32:12.154 --> 00:32:16.815
to a regular cell tower. They can disrupt connections. They can track people that way.

421
00:32:17.320 --> 00:32:24.540
Presumably, if Bluetooth if something like BitChat becomes more and more used, they will actively jam Bluetooth connections.

422
00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:29.740
This is to be expected. It's a demand response kind of situation,

423
00:32:31.085 --> 00:32:33.665
that maybe they haven't felt the need to do yet.

424
00:32:34.605 --> 00:32:37.665
And when I say they, I mean global governments fighting protests.

425
00:32:39.965 --> 00:32:50.560
I have a just to pull it back for a second, I mean, I mesh is something for the reasons you highlighted is something that I've been very excited about for a long time.

426
00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:57.280
And, there's been a lot of false starts. Right? There was, you know, there was LoRa. There was the closed source proprietary,

427
00:32:57.660 --> 00:32:58.160
Gotena.

428
00:32:58.755 --> 00:33:01.495
There was obviously Mechatastic, as you mentioned, Firechat.

429
00:33:04.515 --> 00:33:10.275
Is this time different, and why is it different? Like, it it was maybe I was just

430
00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:13.000
maybe I'm, like, disenfranchised

431
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:15.400
old old man. But,

432
00:33:15.860 --> 00:33:18.280
when I saw a BigChat get released by Dorsey,

433
00:33:18.980 --> 00:33:21.000
it was cool. I was like, that's awesome.

434
00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:22.600
I'm glad to see,

435
00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:32.225
you know, someone more you know, another person more focused on mesh. But then it caught me off guard, the amount of excitement around it, just because of

436
00:33:32.765 --> 00:33:35.185
the lack of excitement or the lack of

437
00:33:35.725 --> 00:33:36.225
tangible

438
00:33:36.685 --> 00:33:41.745
adoption of the other tech that's been out there. Why do you think this time is different?

439
00:33:43.110 --> 00:33:46.970
Well, I mean, it remains to be seen whether this time is different. Right? So,

440
00:33:47.990 --> 00:33:49.370
these things, they live

441
00:33:49.910 --> 00:33:57.450
off the network effect. So excitement is part of the resilience of these systems because they need to be run by

442
00:33:58.095 --> 00:34:01.475
by individuals instead of just hoping that

443
00:34:01.855 --> 00:34:06.995
a cell phone provider will, like, put an antenna there and put you online.

444
00:34:07.615 --> 00:34:07.934
So,

445
00:34:08.415 --> 00:34:09.075
I think

446
00:34:09.375 --> 00:34:10.035
the excitement

447
00:34:10.415 --> 00:34:10.915
definitely

448
00:34:11.535 --> 00:34:12.035
helps

449
00:34:12.869 --> 00:34:14.970
just from an infrastructure perspective.

450
00:34:16.390 --> 00:34:21.049
But, you know, like, hardware today is definitely different than than

451
00:34:21.509 --> 00:34:22.410
ten years ago.

452
00:34:23.670 --> 00:34:27.585
The hardware in your phone is kind of incredible at this point,

453
00:34:28.045 --> 00:34:30.945
and the distances that your Bluetooth chip

454
00:34:31.245 --> 00:34:32.065
can traverse

455
00:34:32.685 --> 00:34:33.185
has,

456
00:34:33.485 --> 00:34:36.705
you know, gone up many multiple times.

457
00:34:37.165 --> 00:34:40.785
The energy that it uses has gone down many multiple times.

458
00:34:41.220 --> 00:34:47.160
So things are just getting better and better, and I I I just expect this to continue to do so.

459
00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:48.920
At the same time, you know,

460
00:34:49.220 --> 00:34:49.540
I'm

461
00:34:50.180 --> 00:34:51.080
I know that,

462
00:34:51.540 --> 00:34:56.494
it has been attempted many times before, and I wouldn't call these projects that you mentioned

463
00:34:56.875 --> 00:34:57.694
failures. They

464
00:34:57.994 --> 00:35:00.255
just maybe never hit, like,

465
00:35:01.115 --> 00:35:07.454
a threshold where enough people used used it, so it became useful to people other than,

466
00:35:08.600 --> 00:35:11.740
just people wanna play around with it and try it out.

467
00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:12.540
And

468
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:16.060
just to be clear, this remains to be seen for BitChat two.

469
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:18.620
But our technology is better,

470
00:35:19.080 --> 00:35:28.964
and the the need just keeps going up. So I think with every day that we spend on this earth, we see more and more reasons why we need alternative infrastructure.

471
00:35:30.145 --> 00:35:30.645
And,

472
00:35:32.224 --> 00:35:35.204
and I think, like, with things like Nostr,

473
00:35:35.690 --> 00:35:38.270
if you combine it with other freedom technologies

474
00:35:39.210 --> 00:35:40.030
like Bitcoin,

475
00:35:40.730 --> 00:35:47.925
if you send around you know, if you use this infrastructure to send around e cash, which is one of the main reasons why I was, like,

476
00:35:49.285 --> 00:35:50.485
excited about it,

477
00:35:51.045 --> 00:35:52.505
in the very first beginning.

478
00:35:52.885 --> 00:35:59.545
If you you know, we have many more things that we can do with it today than than a couple years ago. So,

479
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:05.120
we'll we'll just have to keep trying it and, like, the because we've, like, the the

480
00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:15.755
we might have failed a couple years ago, but in my mind, that's not a reason for, to stop trying to to stop trying to fix, these issues in the future. If

481
00:36:16.214 --> 00:36:19.095
if we don't try it, like, we'll definitely never,

482
00:36:19.494 --> 00:36:20.714
achieve the goals

483
00:36:21.015 --> 00:36:22.375
of this project. So,

484
00:36:23.015 --> 00:36:25.115
I don't see, like, any reason

485
00:36:25.575 --> 00:36:27.035
to not try it out again.

486
00:36:27.575 --> 00:36:28.055
And,

487
00:36:28.375 --> 00:36:29.674
as you said, the alternative

488
00:36:29.974 --> 00:36:30.474
is

489
00:36:30.950 --> 00:36:33.210
is just centralized Internet ISPs,

490
00:36:33.750 --> 00:36:42.890
and those come with so many problems, and no one is really working on improving that. There are a couple of, you know, projects here and there that try to be a better ISP,

491
00:36:43.434 --> 00:36:43.835
but,

492
00:36:44.315 --> 00:36:47.454
they themselves need to be centralized systems.

493
00:36:47.755 --> 00:36:48.255
So

494
00:36:48.714 --> 00:36:53.615
decentralized systems are just harder to bootstrap, harder to build, harder to keep

495
00:36:54.154 --> 00:36:54.654
alive,

496
00:36:55.450 --> 00:36:59.950
but it doesn't mean that they cannot succeed. And we've seen this with Bitcoin.

497
00:37:00.250 --> 00:37:01.790
We've seen this with BitTorrent

498
00:37:02.250 --> 00:37:02.730
or,

499
00:37:03.130 --> 00:37:03.630
Tor.

500
00:37:04.250 --> 00:37:07.390
And I hope and I believe that we can also achieve,

501
00:37:08.225 --> 00:37:11.925
something in that regard with, Internet or communication infrastructure.

502
00:37:14.785 --> 00:37:16.405
Yeah. I mean, Mesh specifically

503
00:37:16.945 --> 00:37:18.085
has an interesting

504
00:37:18.385 --> 00:37:19.605
chicken and egg adoption

505
00:37:19.905 --> 00:37:21.925
thing, which, I mean, is what we've seen

506
00:37:22.940 --> 00:37:27.839
with a lot of the responses by people who download BitChat for the first time. Right? Which is,

507
00:37:28.220 --> 00:37:30.319
oh, I downloaded it, and I don't

508
00:37:30.779 --> 00:37:32.160
see anybody on it.

509
00:37:33.019 --> 00:37:34.079
Yeah. That's nice.

510
00:37:35.525 --> 00:37:37.705
Because more so, like, there there's, like, you

511
00:37:38.165 --> 00:37:39.945
know yeah. I mean, for

512
00:37:40.565 --> 00:37:45.465
more so than other tech. Right? Like, Mesh has this massive adoption hurdle in the beginning,

513
00:37:46.725 --> 00:37:50.105
which is what leaves me cautiously optimistic that

514
00:37:50.630 --> 00:37:54.090
it hit the ground running with so much hype or so much excitement,

515
00:37:55.110 --> 00:37:57.850
that we might be able to get through that adoption hurdle.

516
00:37:58.550 --> 00:38:01.290
Look. Yeah. So, I mean, people need to know about it.

517
00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:04.890
So it needs to be, popular in order to work.

518
00:38:05.465 --> 00:38:05.965
And

519
00:38:06.665 --> 00:38:11.965
the goal right now is not to replace the Internet. Right? It's it is to offer communication

520
00:38:12.345 --> 00:38:17.245
to islands of people, and there are many islands out there. So if there's an app that just

521
00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:21.180
you can very easily just spin it, open the app, and within two seconds,

522
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:28.779
you're connected to anyone around you. There are many use cases for this. It could be, as you said, it could be a festival. It could be a conference.

523
00:38:29.240 --> 00:38:30.700
Right? Sports event.

524
00:38:31.455 --> 00:38:33.315
So many situations where people

525
00:38:33.855 --> 00:38:35.955
not not only because they don't have Internet,

526
00:38:36.255 --> 00:38:42.115
but because they are not, like, automatically connected to anyone around you. Like, imagine,

527
00:38:42.975 --> 00:38:54.450
you're you're on a you're on a Bitcoin conference, and you just wanna send a link to anyone who's in the room. How do you do that? The you know, just announcing your location to use an Internet service for it,

528
00:38:54.750 --> 00:39:02.244
one way would be to post a link somewhere and then just project the QR code and hope that people can scan it. Right? So there's,

529
00:39:02.865 --> 00:39:04.724
like, roundabout ways of going,

530
00:39:05.184 --> 00:39:06.565
trying to solve this issue.

531
00:39:06.865 --> 00:39:08.085
But, really,

532
00:39:09.105 --> 00:39:09.605
limiting

533
00:39:10.704 --> 00:39:11.204
communication

534
00:39:11.825 --> 00:39:13.285
to a geolocation

535
00:39:13.664 --> 00:39:14.885
to a spatial extent

536
00:39:15.720 --> 00:39:19.660
basically requires you to dox your location to an Internet service today.

537
00:39:20.040 --> 00:39:21.980
So I could imagine that

538
00:39:22.520 --> 00:39:24.060
people will come up with situations

539
00:39:24.520 --> 00:39:25.740
or basically have

540
00:39:26.119 --> 00:39:31.020
things in mind already. It might be your warehouse. It might be your company or something

541
00:39:31.455 --> 00:39:39.075
where you don't want to use Internet because you don't want people to make an account and say, hey, app. You know, I'm now in

542
00:39:39.455 --> 00:39:44.035
Nashville, and I would like to get all the messages that are addressed to

543
00:39:44.580 --> 00:39:51.160
Bitcoin Park or something like that. Right? I don't wanna dox my location that I'm in Bitcoin Park right now. So one of the ways is a mesh.

544
00:39:51.540 --> 00:39:52.040
And

545
00:39:52.900 --> 00:39:54.520
there, the the hurdle

546
00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:57.720
is way smaller if you just think about

547
00:39:58.180 --> 00:39:58.680
small

548
00:39:59.060 --> 00:39:59.560
groups

549
00:40:00.195 --> 00:40:00.695
and,

550
00:40:02.035 --> 00:40:16.450
people around you that you wanna communicate with. And because then you don't have to deal with the adoption thing either. You just have to tell the people around you, download this app. Yeah. You can use it on demand. You can send around a few, messages, share some information, and just close it again. You don't,

551
00:40:17.070 --> 00:40:18.770
you you you don't have to be,

552
00:40:19.150 --> 00:40:22.770
connected to to the global mesh all the time to make this thing useful.

553
00:40:23.630 --> 00:40:25.010
Another thing could be,

554
00:40:25.710 --> 00:40:30.915
that you leave it running in the background and you walk around the city or something like that. You you could

555
00:40:31.375 --> 00:40:34.355
kind of receive information, also send out information

556
00:40:35.055 --> 00:40:41.555
to devices or people around you. I I don't know what kind of use cases that would entail. Some people were joking

557
00:40:41.970 --> 00:40:44.070
about, you know, it's the new kind of

558
00:40:44.530 --> 00:40:46.470
flirting app for urban,

559
00:40:47.170 --> 00:40:51.430
singles or something that you find someone like, you you see someone in the metro and,

560
00:40:51.810 --> 00:40:59.045
you wanna talk to them or something like that. Sounds a bit creepy, but, you get the point. Like, you you might be someone who just, like, moves around

561
00:40:59.505 --> 00:41:00.325
and is

562
00:41:00.705 --> 00:41:03.845
interested in information being shared around you.

563
00:41:04.225 --> 00:41:04.885
And, again,

564
00:41:05.745 --> 00:41:09.265
if you wanted to build this on a on the Internet, you would have to,

565
00:41:09.770 --> 00:41:16.349
track your location and share your location with the service. And with local connectivity, like with the mesh, you don't have to do that. So,

566
00:41:16.890 --> 00:41:23.905
I think there are many ways to make this useful that even us cannot really think about yet. And for now, it's about providing,

567
00:41:24.925 --> 00:41:31.585
the ability to do that, and people, like, automatically come up with, interesting use cases for this kind of stuff.

568
00:41:32.045 --> 00:41:34.465
Yeah. I mean, we're already kind of seeing it.

569
00:41:35.965 --> 00:41:36.705
So, like,

570
00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:39.200
one of my focuses

571
00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:42.480
one of my tangential focuses outside of Bitcoin

572
00:41:43.580 --> 00:41:44.320
has been

573
00:41:44.860 --> 00:41:46.080
developing relationships

574
00:41:46.380 --> 00:41:51.040
with local American ranchers and getting good quality meat to feed my family.

575
00:41:52.605 --> 00:41:54.305
I think, you know, strong communities

576
00:41:54.925 --> 00:41:56.305
support each other and

577
00:41:56.685 --> 00:42:00.785
and have each other's back with this kind of thing, and good food is a key aspect of,

578
00:42:01.805 --> 00:42:02.865
quality of life,

579
00:42:04.125 --> 00:42:12.980
and a flourishing family. And a lot of these ranches right now, they use GMRS radios for kind of a similar purpose. Right? So these are short,

580
00:42:13.520 --> 00:42:19.154
you know, five mile line of sight radios. They just wanna communicate among their ranch. Obviously, that

581
00:42:19.775 --> 00:42:20.275
requires

582
00:42:21.694 --> 00:42:23.234
greater distance than Bluetooth.

583
00:42:24.174 --> 00:42:26.674
But I think you could imagine a situation where

584
00:42:27.214 --> 00:42:32.595
since all of this is open source, you have, you know, physical repeaters that you put around a ranch or something,

585
00:42:33.430 --> 00:42:35.530
to accomplish that type of use case.

586
00:42:36.790 --> 00:42:44.170
And it could actually be more helpful than just pure audio communication, which is what they have to rely on with these short range radios.

587
00:42:45.444 --> 00:42:49.545
Yeah. Definitely. So these bridges, I think, will be super interesting. Like, whatever,

588
00:42:50.325 --> 00:42:59.065
whatever the type of bridge will be, and there are different ways to approach this. It could be like a radio bridge, like the one that you mentioned.

589
00:42:59.420 --> 00:43:01.680
It could be an Internet bridge that uses Nasr,

590
00:43:02.940 --> 00:43:07.840
or, like, it could be also a direct Wi Fi connection from your mesh to another mesh.

591
00:43:08.140 --> 00:43:08.620
So,

592
00:43:09.180 --> 00:43:10.000
you could imagine

593
00:43:10.300 --> 00:43:11.600
a situation where,

594
00:43:11.900 --> 00:43:22.345
you know, all the phones around in the in in the ranch, they can actually talk to all the other phones in the other other ranch. Right? So it you you don't have to go to the radio,

595
00:43:22.805 --> 00:43:26.025
pick up the microphone, and say, hey. Is anyone listening?

596
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:29.220
You could just send over a message

597
00:43:29.680 --> 00:43:33.619
and wait for a response like we're used to with any chat app,

598
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.299
that we already use.

599
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.539
Yeah. I'm laughing because,

600
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:39.779
the one of the reasons I love

601
00:43:41.205 --> 00:43:46.905
that both of my shows are live shows is the live chat and the live trolling that happens. And Scardust Official

602
00:43:47.285 --> 00:43:52.085
would like to remind us that GMRS stands for general mobile radio service, and,

603
00:43:52.805 --> 00:43:54.425
saying GMRS radios

604
00:43:55.520 --> 00:43:57.940
is, something worthy of being trolled about.

605
00:43:59.359 --> 00:44:06.339
I, the other aspect here that I think is kinda cool for local communication is when you mix Cashew into it.

606
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:12.275
And so then all of a sudden, not only do you have localized communication, but you have localized commerce.

607
00:44:13.375 --> 00:44:16.115
You can imagine something like a farmer's market, for instance,

608
00:44:16.415 --> 00:44:20.515
where everyone in the farmer's market is able to communicate with each other and pay each other.

609
00:44:21.375 --> 00:44:22.355
I saw that,

610
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:27.339
you've integrate I believe you've integrated Cashew into the Android version of the app?

611
00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:28.380
Both.

612
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:36.460
I mean, I did on the Android, but we we also integrated in in our team, we also integrated into the iOS one. So we have both ready.

613
00:44:37.305 --> 00:44:44.525
Is it in is live in the iOS one right now? No. No. Neither. So, we'll have to work a bit more on the on

614
00:44:44.905 --> 00:44:49.885
the BitChat side of things. But as soon as that feels stable enough, then we'll we'll,

615
00:44:50.200 --> 00:44:58.380
like, try to push, the wallets on on both sides. So, yeah, this is super interesting. This is also, like, why how it caught my attention primarily

616
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:00.700
because I've been, researching

617
00:45:01.080 --> 00:45:03.260
a lot on different ways of

618
00:45:03.765 --> 00:45:04.825
paying with Cashew.

619
00:45:05.285 --> 00:45:06.744
And because Cashew

620
00:45:07.204 --> 00:45:09.545
use eCash, eCash is a bearer

621
00:45:09.845 --> 00:45:10.345
token.

622
00:45:10.964 --> 00:45:14.184
You can kind of send it with any communication

623
00:45:14.885 --> 00:45:16.505
medium that you can think of.

624
00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:19.040
Currently, we're stuck in this,

625
00:45:19.660 --> 00:45:23.360
realm of using QR codes for almost all things that we do,

626
00:45:24.060 --> 00:45:26.000
whether it's a Bitcoin lightning invoice,

627
00:45:26.460 --> 00:45:30.880
whether it's a cashier token that is transmitted via QR code, but also,

628
00:45:31.180 --> 00:45:31.680
with

629
00:45:32.214 --> 00:45:35.115
fiat payments. Like, if you think of Asia, for example,

630
00:45:35.494 --> 00:45:37.355
and for those who have traveled Asia,

631
00:45:37.815 --> 00:45:44.315
will know this, that QR codes are everywhere. You walk into a store, they show you a QR code, you are supposed to scan it with your camera.

632
00:45:44.615 --> 00:45:47.010
And, you know, QR codes

633
00:45:47.470 --> 00:45:50.370
work, but they are super limited in what they can transport.

634
00:45:50.990 --> 00:45:51.490
And,

635
00:45:52.270 --> 00:45:52.770
cameras

636
00:45:53.390 --> 00:45:57.410
weren't never were made for this. Right? It's kind of a hack,

637
00:45:57.870 --> 00:45:59.650
a hack that got stuck

638
00:46:00.015 --> 00:46:01.535
with, with us. So,

639
00:46:02.815 --> 00:46:04.355
so we're using cameras,

640
00:46:04.815 --> 00:46:05.954
super high throughput

641
00:46:06.895 --> 00:46:08.355
device with megabits

642
00:46:08.734 --> 00:46:09.555
of information

643
00:46:10.015 --> 00:46:10.755
per second

644
00:46:11.214 --> 00:46:17.030
to transmit, like, a couple bytes of data in form of a QR code. That's what we that's what we're currently doing.

645
00:46:17.410 --> 00:46:21.030
So, we also we're also doing similar things for Cashew.

646
00:46:21.970 --> 00:46:22.470
So,

647
00:46:23.490 --> 00:46:28.710
we've so and and to to keep innovating in that realm, we have been experimenting

648
00:46:29.170 --> 00:46:33.125
a lot with NFC, for example. So tap to pay with eCash

649
00:46:33.425 --> 00:46:39.045
where you approach one phone to another phone and then send the eCash token directly from,

650
00:46:39.505 --> 00:46:41.285
NFC, also uses radio,

651
00:46:41.825 --> 00:46:42.645
or electromagnetic

652
00:46:43.185 --> 00:46:46.380
waves to send from, one phone to another.

653
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:47.340
And,

654
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.780
that is also limited in throughput, but,

655
00:46:51.640 --> 00:46:52.300
most importantly,

656
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:54.460
it is limited by,

657
00:46:55.480 --> 00:47:17.150
Apple to be able to do what you wanna do. So we can do tap to pay with e cash already from an Android phone to an Android phone or from a cart to a phone. That is also very cool. But, from Android to iPhone, you won't be able to send e cache in that direction. You can send from iPhone to Android because Android just can,

658
00:47:18.170 --> 00:47:20.349
can do more, and it can it can receive,

659
00:47:21.049 --> 00:47:23.895
but an iPhone cannot receive on the NFC chip.

660
00:47:24.455 --> 00:47:29.195
And so there are many technical limitations if you wanna send around data from phone to phone.

661
00:47:30.055 --> 00:47:31.755
So when I heard about,

662
00:47:32.215 --> 00:47:32.715
BitChat,

663
00:47:33.175 --> 00:47:42.830
I immediately thought about some experiments that we've been, doing before with, cache walls where we wanted to use Bluetooth Low Energy to send eCash from one device to another.

664
00:47:43.290 --> 00:47:43.770
And,

665
00:47:44.490 --> 00:47:56.435
that seemed promising because Apple allows you to do as much as you can do also with an Android phone, so that kind of opens up a way to onboard everyone onto this payment system or payment,

666
00:47:56.755 --> 00:47:57.255
interaction.

667
00:47:57.875 --> 00:48:00.695
And so what I have in mind is, basically,

668
00:48:01.155 --> 00:48:05.015
in the future, I hope that you'll be able to walk into a store,

669
00:48:05.395 --> 00:48:06.055
and then,

670
00:48:06.755 --> 00:48:09.809
you'll, you know, you'll have a $10,

671
00:48:10.190 --> 00:48:11.410
receipt or something.

672
00:48:11.950 --> 00:48:25.835
The person at the store will enter it in their terminal, and then it'll just pop up on your phone and say you wanna pay $10, you press the button. You don't have to scan a QR code. You don't have to tap anything or but, you'll just get a notification

673
00:48:26.295 --> 00:48:27.195
on your device,

674
00:48:27.495 --> 00:48:30.395
or you can push the payment from your device

675
00:48:30.775 --> 00:48:34.075
to the, to the receiver, and they'll see a notification

676
00:48:34.375 --> 00:48:39.035
and can receive the payment. So this is what we had in mind, and we've been re researching it before.

677
00:48:39.549 --> 00:48:46.130
And so when Big Hat came around, we're like, yeah. Fuck. Yeah. This is exactly what we what we need to try this with.

678
00:48:46.510 --> 00:48:48.130
So what we did is

679
00:48:48.750 --> 00:48:51.569
basically the opposite. Instead of implementing

680
00:48:52.375 --> 00:48:59.835
e Bluetooth into a Cashew wallet, we, went the other way and we implemented a Cashew wallet into BitChat.

681
00:49:01.015 --> 00:49:02.695
And we did that with, our,

682
00:49:04.055 --> 00:49:10.080
library called CDK, which is the Cashew DevKit, which is based on Rust. And it makes it extremely easy

683
00:49:10.620 --> 00:49:15.680
to build wallets and implement it into things. So it's a it's a Rust library that does

684
00:49:15.980 --> 00:49:19.040
all the Casio stuff for it for you, and it's

685
00:49:19.595 --> 00:49:30.015
using the last Rust library. It just allows you to build cacheable. It's extremely easy and super fast. So with this with this library, we we we're still kind of in the process of pushing it out and also

686
00:49:30.395 --> 00:49:33.135
putting the word out there because it's so new.

687
00:49:34.310 --> 00:49:44.010
The fact that you can do this is is still super new. But, essentially, it it brought down the IQ requirement for building a Cashew wallet from maybe a 100 of 30

688
00:49:44.390 --> 00:49:55.905
to 70 now. Like, you you can just implement a Cashew wallet within within a couple minutes into your application with that. So that's what we did. We took, BitChat for iOS and BitChat for Android.

689
00:49:56.285 --> 00:49:57.105
We took CDK

690
00:49:57.485 --> 00:50:05.570
and added, bindings for it for for the programmers who know what this means. For those who don't know what this means, binding's basically like the glue between

691
00:50:06.030 --> 00:50:08.930
the library that we're using and the application where we wanna,

692
00:50:09.310 --> 00:50:10.450
implement it to.

693
00:50:10.829 --> 00:50:20.025
So we we took the CDK library and just put it into BitChat Android and BitChat iOS, and within couple of hours, we had fully functioning in cash wallets in both of these applications,

694
00:50:20.645 --> 00:50:21.625
completely independently,

695
00:50:22.725 --> 00:50:23.225
implemented.

696
00:50:24.085 --> 00:50:27.145
And that was it. So we had, like, a a little,

697
00:50:27.765 --> 00:50:35.560
wallet icon in the BitChat app. When you press it, it just opens a Bitcoin wallet that just looks like an ordinary cash wallet.

698
00:50:36.099 --> 00:50:36.420
And,

699
00:50:37.060 --> 00:50:41.640
with that wallet, you can charge it with lightning, then you'll have some stats on your BitChat wallet,

700
00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:51.335
app. And then you can go in the in the chat. You can either in the in the direct message from me to you or even in the public chat, you can just drop some chats in there.

701
00:50:51.715 --> 00:50:53.175
So the interface was,

702
00:50:53.555 --> 00:50:56.295
you you would have this typical, like, cyberpunk

703
00:50:57.730 --> 00:51:00.310
interface of BitChat. So you write slash

704
00:51:00.690 --> 00:51:09.510
pay and then the amount in Satoshis and a comment if you like. You press send, and then it it drops this payment

705
00:51:10.845 --> 00:51:20.045
blob in the chat that, you know, pops up everywhere and says, like, there's a 200 satoshi payment for you. And you can press redeem, and it ends up in your in your,

706
00:51:20.685 --> 00:51:26.430
cash work that is built in into your into your BitChat app. So this is super cool because,

707
00:51:26.809 --> 00:51:30.349
first, e cash is better, so we can use Bluetooth to send it around.

708
00:51:30.650 --> 00:51:36.190
But what's also very cool is that the payer still doesn't require Internet to make that payment.

709
00:51:36.635 --> 00:51:52.015
Mind you, the receiver needs Internet in that case because otherwise, you cannot prevent double spending. So one of the parties needs Internet, so you're you're kind of leaving this fully offline realm and require at least one person to have Internet, but the other person can pay without Internet.

710
00:51:52.340 --> 00:51:53.080
So this

711
00:51:53.620 --> 00:51:57.240
it's like this this shop situation. Walk into a store.

712
00:51:57.620 --> 00:52:00.660
You buy a shirt. It's, they say, $20,

713
00:52:00.660 --> 00:52:14.855
and you just, like, open your wallet, press a button, $20, just immediately drops into the chat. You don't need to be online. It just happens instantly and always works, and it just the payment is done. So, that's that's where where we're trying to go.

714
00:52:15.235 --> 00:52:22.320
I mean, what people don't realize with that is that is already the standard with traditional mobile pay payments. Like, if you use Apple

715
00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:26.640
Pay, the payer actually does not need to be online. Like, if you're in

716
00:52:27.100 --> 00:52:28.320
the developing world,

717
00:52:28.700 --> 00:52:31.040
you know, you could be, like, in the middle of the jungle.

718
00:52:31.420 --> 00:52:33.520
And if someone has an Apple Pay

719
00:52:33.820 --> 00:52:34.720
point of sale,

720
00:52:35.045 --> 00:52:37.545
your phone doesn't have to have Internet. You tap

721
00:52:37.925 --> 00:52:45.225
you you just tap to pay at that point, and the receiver has Internet and is able to then process the payment and confirm the payment.

722
00:52:46.085 --> 00:52:49.385
And that's one of the reasons why Apple Pay works so seamlessly

723
00:52:49.890 --> 00:52:52.230
when you use it and there's no lag there.

724
00:52:52.690 --> 00:52:54.150
So that's already the standard.

725
00:52:54.529 --> 00:52:58.309
Cashew kind of brings that standard into the bill Bitcoin realm.

726
00:52:58.770 --> 00:53:01.910
I have a quick question for you. Just in that one use case

727
00:53:02.369 --> 00:53:06.765
where you're, like, dropping it into the local group chat, let's say it's a Bitcoin conference,

728
00:53:08.185 --> 00:53:15.485
if you're dropping it into the local group chat, that that becomes like a race condition for who tries to redeem it. It's like whoever gets Internet first. Right?

729
00:53:16.185 --> 00:53:16.685
Exactly.

730
00:53:16.985 --> 00:53:18.265
Yeah. It's like leaving,

731
00:53:18.585 --> 00:53:24.030
little crumbs of of Satoshis in the in the Bluetooth chat and seeing, like, who who gets it first.

732
00:53:24.650 --> 00:53:29.950
But, yeah, as you said, like, the the situation where the payer doesn't have Internet but the receiver has Internet

733
00:53:30.570 --> 00:53:32.855
is super common. That's the way how,

734
00:53:33.235 --> 00:53:49.900
credit cards work. So just like to add on what you said, that's how Apple Pay works. That's also how Google Pay works, but that's also how credit card tap to pay works. And that's, you know, the the reason why Apple Pay and Google Pay works this way is because of the credit cards. And,

735
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:57.260
like, how a credit card, offline Tap two Pay credit card, or your offline Tap two Pay Apple Pay works

736
00:53:57.640 --> 00:54:01.980
is by downloading tokens from the Apple Pay server. So it is

737
00:54:02.424 --> 00:54:06.125
a little bit similar to how how it works with eCash, actually.

738
00:54:06.585 --> 00:54:10.605
So you you when your phone is online and you have Apple Pay,

739
00:54:11.305 --> 00:54:18.980
your phone goes to Apple Pay server and says, like, I have this credit card company x y z, and I'd like to download, like, 20

740
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:39.645
offline tokens. And then the Apple Pay or Google Pay server gives you these 20 offline tokens. And then you can walk around in the middle of nowhere and just tap your phone. And the reason why it's instant, as you said, is because your phone doesn't need Internet. Just the receiver needs Internet, which is typically a store owner, so they have an Internet connection often. And you're probably like the,

741
00:54:40.105 --> 00:54:51.500
mobile phone user who's, like, in the mall without cell connection, but it still works on your phone. And that's because the token that you received while you had Internet that is on your phone just flows directly from

742
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:52.540
your phone

743
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:53.820
via NFC

744
00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:57.820
to the payment terminal, and then the payment terminal takes that token,

745
00:54:58.135 --> 00:55:14.030
in in the case of Apple Pay and Google Pay, takes that token and sends sends it off to the Internet and says, like, hey. Am I allowed to you know, is this user legit, and can they make a payment and so on and so forth? And then that executes the payment in the back end on the Internet for you. So for eCash,

746
00:55:14.490 --> 00:55:20.030
it kinda works the same way, but for Bitcoin and with privacy. And that's, like, the the critical

747
00:55:20.570 --> 00:55:21.070
differentiating

748
00:55:21.690 --> 00:55:24.190
factor between these payment systems is

749
00:55:24.570 --> 00:55:32.755
we can also have tap to pay or offline payer situations for Bitcoin when we use e cash, but plus

750
00:55:33.215 --> 00:55:36.995
insane privacy on top of that. So for Apple Pay and Google Pay,

751
00:55:37.310 --> 00:55:41.650
the Internet server needs to know who you are because the token that you sent is not the money.

752
00:55:42.030 --> 00:55:45.250
It is like a access key to your credit card, basically,

753
00:55:45.790 --> 00:55:50.850
and that needs to hit the Internet and need to identify you. In the case of eCash,

754
00:55:51.155 --> 00:55:54.454
the token itself is the representation of the Satoshi,

755
00:55:55.395 --> 00:56:14.390
and then you sent that over to the payment terminal. And the payment terminal does one swap with the ecash mint over the Internet, and the payment is done. And the mint doesn't need to know who you are. The receiver doesn't need to know who you are. In fact, no one can figure out who you are because of the privacy properties of ecash itself.

756
00:56:14.770 --> 00:56:15.270
So,

757
00:56:15.570 --> 00:56:33.680
I'm super bullish on that use case. It is definitely, like, something that we're going to focus more. We do already focus a lot on this. And the fact that you're offline gives you incredible privacy because your phone doesn't need to go online. You you don't even leave a trace like saying, hey. I turned on my phone or something like that.

758
00:56:34.060 --> 00:56:35.760
Like, you don't need to go online.

759
00:56:36.540 --> 00:56:49.234
And it's instant because there is no, you know, I need to connect first and, like, get into my PayPal account and log in and, like, wait for the delay and shit like that. Just send over the money, and you're done with it.

760
00:56:50.335 --> 00:56:51.075
Yeah. So,

761
00:56:53.295 --> 00:56:54.115
first off,

762
00:56:54.734 --> 00:56:57.935
huge shout out to SoapMiner who zapped 21,000

763
00:56:57.935 --> 00:56:59.474
sats, has great soap.

764
00:56:59.790 --> 00:57:00.290
Nice.

765
00:57:00.910 --> 00:57:12.110
And is a good support is a is a legendary support of the show. I appreciate your your support. And we have Pablo, who's a legend himself, building in the Nostra ecosystem, who zapped 21,000

766
00:57:12.110 --> 00:57:15.330
saying, I appreciate you, gents. Thank you guys for supporting the show.

767
00:57:16.645 --> 00:57:18.964
It really it it means more than the money.

768
00:57:19.525 --> 00:57:22.265
As the support comes in, it's it keeps me going.

769
00:57:22.885 --> 00:57:24.904
Yeah. On the cash you piece, I mean,

770
00:57:25.204 --> 00:57:29.400
this is where it's like all these Freedom Tech projects are, like, coming together. It's

771
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:36.380
like it all compounds and gets super powerful. The offline component I mean, basically,

772
00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:41.500
a Cashew token, you can kinda it's just a long string of text. So however you can transmit

773
00:57:42.215 --> 00:57:44.635
a long string of text, you can transmit,

774
00:57:45.495 --> 00:57:46.555
a Cashew token.

775
00:57:47.495 --> 00:57:50.955
And, I mean, even in a you could imagine a lot of situations

776
00:57:51.815 --> 00:57:54.715
where there's, like, a a limited trust environment,

777
00:57:56.060 --> 00:57:56.560
where

778
00:57:56.860 --> 00:58:06.240
where people can do commerce where both people are offline. And then at some point in the future, the receiver needs to go on online if he doesn't think the person's gonna scam them,

779
00:58:07.944 --> 00:58:14.605
and then redeem it at that point. And, I mean, we're already in like, people don't realize, like, you go and you pay with the credit card,

780
00:58:14.984 --> 00:58:22.444
like, that merchant can get charged back, like, thirty days later. And that's a way, you know, less trusted environment

781
00:58:23.180 --> 00:58:23.820
or is a high

782
00:58:24.380 --> 00:58:27.440
it's you don't you know, you go into, like, a J. Crew or something,

783
00:58:27.740 --> 00:58:29.680
that random minimum wage employee,

784
00:58:30.700 --> 00:58:35.840
does not even know who you are. But if you're in, like, a farmer's market or something and I'm going there every week

785
00:58:36.234 --> 00:58:37.535
and I'm paying someone,

786
00:58:37.915 --> 00:58:52.200
like, that farmer doesn't necessarily need to be connected to the Internet for, like, four hours or five hours, and then later, he can connect to the Internet and redeem. And if I scam him, like, he'll never sell me meat again. Yeah. Yeah. Proof of punch. If you're close enough to someone, then,

787
00:58:52.740 --> 00:58:54.680
you you the the probability

788
00:58:55.140 --> 00:58:56.200
of of scamming

789
00:58:56.579 --> 00:58:58.680
getting scammed goes down a lot.

790
00:58:59.779 --> 00:59:04.039
But yeah. So if we start comparing ourselves to the fiat system, like,

791
00:59:04.355 --> 00:59:06.214
it's gonna be an easy game because,

792
00:59:06.835 --> 00:59:09.015
Nice. Like, you know, these

793
00:59:09.474 --> 00:59:15.315
in the fiat system, like, it's it's so fucked. It's we we don't even need to start, but let's do it for fun. So,

794
00:59:16.194 --> 00:59:17.734
in the in the fiat game,

795
00:59:18.869 --> 00:59:19.769
they achieve

796
00:59:20.069 --> 00:59:20.890
most of

797
00:59:21.190 --> 00:59:21.690
the

798
00:59:21.990 --> 00:59:23.609
security in in quotes,

799
00:59:23.990 --> 00:59:25.130
security by,

800
00:59:25.990 --> 00:59:27.049
by by basically,

801
00:59:28.069 --> 00:59:32.650
denying you access to the hardware itself. So you have kind of like a hardware level,

802
00:59:33.734 --> 00:59:35.355
trust system. So,

803
00:59:35.734 --> 00:59:45.510
yeah, of course. Like, if we wanna, you know, lower the bar that much, we can definitely do the same as well. So in a credit card, for example, when you tap to pay with the credit card, as you said,

804
00:59:46.070 --> 00:59:50.810
you don't know how much that terminal is going to deduct from a credit card. Like,

805
00:59:51.190 --> 00:59:56.230
there might be a maximum limit, but, like, is it, like, $2, or is it, like, $25,

806
00:59:56.230 --> 01:00:02.155
maybe $200, would depending on what your credit card allows. So you you don't control that. The reason why you,

807
01:00:02.935 --> 01:00:04.155
in quotes, trust,

808
01:00:04.695 --> 01:00:09.355
the payment is because the terminal itself is like a tested hardware

809
01:00:09.975 --> 01:00:16.390
that is built by a company that kind of says, trust me, bro. We built a terminal that doesn't rock your users.

810
01:00:16.769 --> 01:00:21.509
Same for the credit card itself. The credit card itself has this chip on it

811
01:00:21.809 --> 01:00:27.190
that everyone knows, like this this golden thingy, and there's a CPU inside there. And, basically,

812
01:00:27.569 --> 01:00:48.070
what this credit card kind of assumes is that you won't be able to open it up and just disassemble the thing and and take out, like, these these tokens that I talked about before that someone be will be able to see this. So, like, if you say that, okay. We'll we'll trust the hardware to not allow you to double spend or we'll just trust the hardware to not rock

813
01:00:48.450 --> 01:00:49.030
the customer,

814
01:00:49.730 --> 01:00:53.590
then, yes, we can do all of those things as well. But,

815
01:00:54.204 --> 01:01:01.984
obviously, like, that also means that applicability of these systems is super limited. So you need, like, a certified device

816
01:01:02.684 --> 01:01:03.345
to receive,

817
01:01:03.805 --> 01:01:05.884
credit card payment or at least, you know

818
01:01:06.285 --> 01:01:20.049
this has changed a lot in in recent years, and by now, you can also use, like, an Apple phone for it. Obviously, Apple phone is, like, super, walled garden thing, but there there's much more hardware today that supports this. But in in general

819
01:01:20.430 --> 01:01:21.410
generally speaking,

820
01:01:22.775 --> 01:01:24.715
if you introduce hardware level,

821
01:01:25.255 --> 01:01:25.755
safety,

822
01:01:26.055 --> 01:01:34.475
then we can do fully offline transactions as well. It basically just depends on whether your phone will allow you to double spend the token that you just spent or not.

823
01:01:34.950 --> 01:01:39.930
But if you approach this from a fully open source perspective, which we do,

824
01:01:40.230 --> 01:01:51.575
then we kind of have to assume that anyone can open up everything, and everything is observable. And you can just, you know, you can take the software, you can change it, and then start messing around with the system. So

825
01:01:52.035 --> 01:01:55.895
we, kind of, like, try to find a minimal viable,

826
01:01:56.755 --> 01:01:57.255
trustless

827
01:01:58.195 --> 01:02:01.735
or least amount of trust system that that still works

828
01:02:02.049 --> 01:02:03.589
without knowing your counterparty

829
01:02:03.970 --> 01:02:04.710
or without

830
01:02:05.329 --> 01:02:08.710
having to, you know, stand across them and being

831
01:02:09.170 --> 01:02:11.109
reached of of a punch in case,

832
01:02:11.569 --> 01:02:14.630
the punch is needed. Right? So for example, Internet applications

833
01:02:14.945 --> 01:02:16.805
where you cannot necessarily just,

834
01:02:17.265 --> 01:02:19.525
punch someone in the face when they try to rob you.

835
01:02:23.825 --> 01:02:25.205
Yeah. I mean, this is all

836
01:02:26.785 --> 01:02:28.244
it's complete game changer.

837
01:02:29.490 --> 01:02:33.190
I mean, I wanna talk about first off, we should have mentioned it earlier,

838
01:02:34.290 --> 01:02:35.190
but we didn't.

839
01:02:35.490 --> 01:02:36.790
So that's on us.

840
01:02:38.770 --> 01:02:50.625
But bid chat is not available in the Play Store. So if you're if you're going to the normal App Store on Google and there is a BitChat listed there, that's not the official distribution of it. It might be a scam.

841
01:02:51.085 --> 01:02:55.760
I can't Don't don't download that. That is, like, a big warning sign, and, like, I

842
01:02:56.300 --> 01:03:03.040
this is on me. I've been trying to, like, really wrestling with Google. I haven't been able to put it up myself yet,

843
01:03:03.660 --> 01:03:07.520
but I'm working on it. So don't download BitChat from the,

844
01:03:07.900 --> 01:03:10.320
Play Store as of July 30,

845
01:03:10.745 --> 01:03:11.645
which is today.

846
01:03:12.025 --> 01:03:17.805
And, as soon as it hits the Play Store in an official way, then you'll know. But for now,

847
01:03:18.105 --> 01:03:20.185
you can go to bitjet.free.

848
01:03:20.185 --> 01:03:22.205
That's our domain. That's the official

849
01:03:22.505 --> 01:03:23.005
domain.

850
01:03:23.465 --> 01:03:26.605
And there you find links and resources for the trust

851
01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:27.460
trusted,

852
01:03:28.720 --> 01:03:38.660
application where you can find it without being afraid of getting scammed. So for the, iOS version, you can go to the Apple App Store. Just search it on your iPhone and download BitChat.

853
01:03:39.215 --> 01:03:47.395
For Android, don't get it from the Play Store just yet. It's a fake guy who took my application and just uploaded it to Google himself,

854
01:03:47.935 --> 01:03:50.735
and it's basically impossible to take it down for me at this point,

855
01:03:51.455 --> 01:03:59.339
without kind of like, it's it's it's it's terrible. Let's not even get into it, but, yeah, don't get it from there. Get it from the GitHub,

856
01:03:59.720 --> 01:04:02.700
which, you find the link on bitchat.free.

857
01:04:03.320 --> 01:04:05.000
Or you can get it from,

858
01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:06.220
the Zapstore.

859
01:04:06.835 --> 01:04:08.455
Right? Zapstore.dev,

860
01:04:08.675 --> 01:04:09.415
the the

861
01:04:10.355 --> 01:04:12.695
Nasr enabled Android App Store.

862
01:04:13.235 --> 01:04:14.935
Unfortunately, it's not there yet.

863
01:04:15.395 --> 01:04:18.615
But it is on my list. It is on my list. It's not on Zapstore.

864
01:04:19.075 --> 01:04:23.869
I was joking about this because people keep pushing me to to do it. I am going to do it.

865
01:04:24.170 --> 01:04:33.549
Don't worry, guys. I'm going to do it. But there's also f droid, which I also need to do. But, like, It's not an f droid either. One thing f at a time. It is nowhere

866
01:04:33.849 --> 01:04:39.705
except on or on GitHub. Don't get it anywhere but on GitHub. Okay. So go to bitchat.free,

867
01:04:40.805 --> 01:04:42.345
which is a,

868
01:04:43.525 --> 01:04:44.425
I mean, a

869
01:04:45.765 --> 01:04:46.405
a a a weak,

870
01:04:47.285 --> 01:04:49.785
kind of a weak domain name, but bitchat.free,

871
01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:53.940
and download the APK, and then you can sideload it

872
01:04:54.240 --> 01:04:58.819
onto your Android device by just installing the APK. An APK is like a,

873
01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:01.220
an Android application file

874
01:05:03.105 --> 01:05:06.645
that you can just install any application. It's one of the best parts about Android.

875
01:05:07.185 --> 01:05:10.065
I do think it's funny. I see at bitchat.com,

876
01:05:10.065 --> 01:05:11.045
it goes to,

877
01:05:11.665 --> 01:05:15.045
the domain owner's tweet about owning bitchat.com.

878
01:05:15.180 --> 01:05:17.520
So what he has it redirected to right now,

879
01:05:18.380 --> 01:05:20.319
which also, I think, just goes to

880
01:05:22.940 --> 01:05:23.599
the unexpected

881
01:05:23.980 --> 01:05:26.559
hype and excitement that came out of the project.

882
01:05:27.060 --> 01:05:30.435
I mean, Dorsey clearly did not try and secure a domain name before

883
01:05:33.075 --> 01:05:35.475
but that's is what it is. Bitchat.free.

884
01:05:35.795 --> 01:05:36.675
What I wanted

885
01:05:37.555 --> 01:05:44.195
yeah. See, Pablo's like he didn't get bitched at at. Who has bitched at at? No. I I tried. I tried Pablo. I tried,

886
01:05:44.835 --> 01:05:45.735
the Austrians,

887
01:05:46.520 --> 01:05:49.339
which is 80. The Austrians don't let you use

888
01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:52.780
the, the domain pitch.something.

889
01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:54.540
Fair enough.

890
01:05:55.880 --> 01:05:58.300
They're very buttoned up over there. It's like,

891
01:05:59.825 --> 01:06:02.464
maybe I I try and be a friendly tourist, but,

892
01:06:04.224 --> 01:06:06.005
when I was in Austria, I was

893
01:06:06.545 --> 01:06:13.045
they really did not they really did not like me, specifically in Vienna. I think they're just still salty about losing World War two.

894
01:06:13.665 --> 01:06:14.165
Absolutely.

895
01:06:14.920 --> 01:06:15.420
I

896
01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:16.200
I,

897
01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:23.020
so but what I wanted to talk about, but I just wanted the Android disclosure out there before people go download the wrong app,

898
01:06:24.520 --> 01:06:30.795
is for those of us watching, I mean, it's it was quite remarkable that you were able to create a native Android app

899
01:06:31.255 --> 01:06:37.595
so quickly. I mean, I thought you might have had advanced notice, but it sounds like you didn't even have advanced notice and you were able to make

900
01:06:38.055 --> 01:06:42.395
a native Android app and release it within a matter of of days.

901
01:06:44.110 --> 01:06:58.985
That might be one of the single most powerful things about this vibe coding movement. You wanna talk about that process a little bit? Yeah. Definitely. Let's talk about that because that's one of the biggest learnings that I had, while doing like, working on this except for all the things that I learned about Bluetooth. But

902
01:07:00.405 --> 01:07:02.985
yeah. So I I didn't know about this before you.

903
01:07:03.365 --> 01:07:10.965
I learned about it at the same time. I just sat down and did it, because I've had quite, some experience with AI, but

904
01:07:12.020 --> 01:07:15.319
and using using agents, but I think everyone

905
01:07:15.619 --> 01:07:23.220
out there could have done so too, or at least if you know a little bit about programming, then kind of you can do it too. And,

906
01:07:24.305 --> 01:07:31.925
so I'll dive a bit into the process and what I learned about it. So first of all, what I what I used for it was mainly goose,

907
01:07:32.385 --> 01:07:33.045
by block

908
01:07:33.505 --> 01:07:34.405
and cursor.

909
01:07:35.265 --> 01:07:35.765
Mostly

910
01:07:36.510 --> 01:07:42.050
goose because it allows you to easily switch between models, and the model that I used heavily

911
01:07:42.590 --> 01:07:43.970
was mostly Claude,

912
01:07:44.590 --> 01:07:45.090
four

913
01:07:45.710 --> 01:07:46.210
and,

914
01:07:46.590 --> 01:07:47.650
SONNET four.

915
01:07:48.430 --> 01:07:48.930
And,

916
01:07:49.950 --> 01:07:51.570
the process of it was

917
01:07:52.045 --> 01:07:53.185
basically like downloading,

918
01:07:54.365 --> 01:08:01.425
Jack's implementation and then exploring it a bit by hand and then using various LMS to first

919
01:08:02.525 --> 01:08:04.305
describe the software to me.

920
01:08:04.630 --> 01:08:09.450
So I used something with a large context window. I think it must have been probably Gemini,

921
01:08:10.230 --> 01:08:12.890
that I started with. It's to just, you know, explore

922
01:08:13.349 --> 01:08:22.175
this huge code base. At that point, it was already a big code base, so it's hard to get an overview. Like, what are the features? Give me a summary of what this thing can do.

923
01:08:22.475 --> 01:08:28.975
So I get this response from the bot, and I see, like, okay. This is what it can do and so on. And then from there on,

924
01:08:29.515 --> 01:08:46.610
I start acting as a project manager, less than like a coder, but a project manager saying like, okay. Now this is a iOS version of our application, and we wanna launch, like, an Android version of our application. We want it to be a 100% compatible with the iOS version. Now before we start coding,

925
01:08:47.325 --> 01:08:51.745
let's start with an implementation plan. Like, as as if you would start planning

926
01:08:52.205 --> 01:08:52.705
a

927
01:08:53.165 --> 01:08:53.665
project

928
01:08:54.045 --> 01:09:02.285
to build an app in a in a company, you do you you usually don't just start building it, but you make a plan of all the individual steps that you need to,

929
01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:08.699
scratch off, like, one by one. What is we need first to implement, like, the public chat, and,

930
01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:19.175
then we need to implement, like, liking things, and then we need to implement, like, that sidebar and blah blah blah blah blah. Like, you make a list of all the things that need to be done step by step.

931
01:09:19.715 --> 01:09:22.135
And what I also do is, I add

932
01:09:22.995 --> 01:09:29.255
I I I tell it I tell them about, like, give me a list of things that need to be done and also, like, what are the requirements

933
01:09:29.555 --> 01:09:32.035
in that in each step and what what's kind of,

934
01:09:32.869 --> 01:09:33.750
what what,

935
01:09:34.389 --> 01:09:34.889
requirements,

936
01:09:35.989 --> 01:09:39.829
make that step fulfilled, like, let you fulfill that step. So,

937
01:09:40.230 --> 01:09:44.489
I get a long list of things that need to be done in order to port this to Android,

938
01:09:44.949 --> 01:09:54.885
and I look at the list. And I take that output from an LM, and I start a new one. And with that LM, I talk to as if it's my developer.

939
01:09:55.585 --> 01:09:56.085
And,

940
01:09:56.465 --> 01:10:05.150
I take my my implementation plan that I that I planned before and give it to that l m, and I say, no. We're starting now with step one.

941
01:10:05.610 --> 01:10:08.030
You know? Like, step one is build the entire,

942
01:10:09.210 --> 01:10:14.110
like, foundation of the app. Create all the directories, create all the folders and,

943
01:10:14.570 --> 01:10:15.469
files, and

944
01:10:15.775 --> 01:10:27.475
and register the app, create, like, a Android manifest and so on. Like, you have maybe you need to know a little bit about Android before, but to be honest, like, you can probably also do it without knowing anything about Android first.

945
01:10:27.870 --> 01:10:41.489
And so that's how you start. You do it step by step. The most important thing is that you have a list of things that you wanna work through because LLMs get lost along the way, and you need some way to bring them back to the task that you wanna,

946
01:10:42.110 --> 01:10:43.250
make them work on.

947
01:10:43.605 --> 01:11:01.690
So, that was the process, and I did this for a couple of hours back and forth and back and forth looking at the code sometimes. But most of the time in the beginning, I didn't even really look at the code itself. I'm just, like, you know, looking at the results, whether it compiles or not. And if it doesn't compile, the LAM kinda knows that it made a mistake itself and tries to fix it.

948
01:11:02.070 --> 01:11:07.690
So, half a day or so goes by doing that. And then at some point, I had, this this working

949
01:11:08.150 --> 01:11:09.770
version with the basic features,

950
01:11:10.390 --> 01:11:14.090
like, no no direct messages yet, but, like, the group chat, for example,

951
01:11:15.275 --> 01:11:27.614
for Android. And it also started to look quite similar to the iOS app because I also told it, like, make it look exactly the same, use the same color scheme, use the same fonts, and so on to make it look the same.

952
01:11:27.990 --> 01:11:47.065
And, you end up with this basic version, and then from there on, you keep improving it. So you do step by step by step by step. You kind of need to know where you wanna go, but as soon as long as you can express this in a meaningful way, the and most of the time can do the can get the job done. So that's how that's how I built BigChat,

953
01:11:47.605 --> 01:11:53.925
in the beginning. That's why it went so so quickly because I was basically just 100%

954
01:11:53.925 --> 01:11:55.385
vibes and just observing

955
01:11:55.740 --> 01:12:00.160
what the thing is doing and trying to kind of steer it in the correct direction.

956
01:12:00.620 --> 01:12:06.000
Now mind you, with every Vibe Coded project that I've done so far, and,

957
01:12:06.780 --> 01:12:10.320
I've done many of them, like, in the in the last year, and

958
01:12:10.954 --> 01:12:13.295
is what you see is that the proportion

959
01:12:13.675 --> 01:12:14.414
of Vibe

960
01:12:14.715 --> 01:12:16.175
against manual coding

961
01:12:16.875 --> 01:12:21.295
goes down as the project matures. It gets more and more complex.

962
01:12:21.835 --> 01:12:31.679
The LMs tend to make more and more mistake over time, and the context gets larger and larger because the project grows. So things get just get more complicated

963
01:12:31.980 --> 01:12:33.420
as you go. So,

964
01:12:33.820 --> 01:12:35.199
the the need to intervene,

965
01:12:36.219 --> 01:12:39.360
by fixing things by hand just grows over time.

966
01:12:40.035 --> 01:12:42.855
One more thing I wanna mention here is noise encryption.

967
01:12:43.235 --> 01:12:43.735
So

968
01:12:44.115 --> 01:12:45.175
BitChat uses,

969
01:12:45.795 --> 01:12:46.295
a

970
01:12:46.675 --> 01:12:47.495
pretty nifty,

971
01:12:48.355 --> 01:12:48.855
handshake,

972
01:12:50.115 --> 01:12:54.375
pattern called noise x x handshake. It gives you forward secrecy, which is

973
01:12:54.750 --> 01:12:56.210
basically saying, like, if someone,

974
01:12:56.829 --> 01:13:08.369
gets access to your phone today, they cannot read all the messages that you're going to write tomorrow or that you have written yesterday. So kind of, like, make sure that even if you get compromised today, that you have secrecy

975
01:13:08.845 --> 01:13:10.465
forward and backwards in time.

976
01:13:10.765 --> 01:13:13.345
And, so that used the noise x x handshake.

977
01:13:13.965 --> 01:13:16.625
And that part, for example, was just heavily

978
01:13:17.165 --> 01:13:21.585
heavily manual coding. So as soon as you get, like, super advanced

979
01:13:22.030 --> 01:13:23.790
and there is not much for,

980
01:13:24.110 --> 01:13:39.435
the the LLM to draw on knowledge from the Internet, then you need to go in there and become, like, a coder again instead of being just a project manager. But yeah. So as I said, like, the the amount of work, manual work just goes up usually goes up over time.

981
01:13:39.815 --> 01:13:41.915
And especially if you don't, you

982
01:13:42.455 --> 01:13:55.030
know, if you if you don't be like, if you aren't careful, especially over time as the project grows, you can also maneuver yourself into a dead end where the project just grows and grows and gets bloated and bloated

983
01:13:55.410 --> 01:14:01.670
to a point where it just becomes like a complete mess, and it becomes extremely hard to

984
01:14:02.050 --> 01:14:11.975
put it into a state again where where it just, you know, it works again or looks nice again or isn't like a complicated mess with lots of dead code that isn't used and so on. So

985
01:14:12.355 --> 01:14:15.655
that is something I think you learn as a Vibe coder

986
01:14:16.034 --> 01:14:26.230
as you gain more experience. But, like, the first steps is, like, fully Vibe, fully automated, and that's also something that that's also the reason why anyone can do this,

987
01:14:27.250 --> 01:14:35.765
especially me. I'm not a front end developer even. Like, I'm not an Android developer, first of all, but I'm not even a front end developer. I'm usually

988
01:14:36.145 --> 01:14:37.445
deep in the trenches

989
01:14:37.985 --> 01:14:39.125
in the machine room,

990
01:14:39.665 --> 01:14:40.165
like,

991
01:14:40.545 --> 01:14:41.685
interacting with,

992
01:14:42.305 --> 01:14:43.525
command line interfaces

993
01:14:43.825 --> 01:14:45.045
at the best and

994
01:14:45.425 --> 01:15:01.260
not really good at, like, moving buttons around and so on and so forth. And I don't even know how that works on Android. At this point, I do know. But before that, I didn't really understand exactly how Android front end development works, especially with Kotlin. So I I learned all of that.

995
01:15:01.785 --> 01:15:11.805
Without knowing you can just do things. That's my message. Like, you can just do things, and today you can do things a lot more than than just a year ago. So that that's that's the process.

996
01:15:12.505 --> 01:15:13.005
And

997
01:15:14.530 --> 01:15:18.230
a slightly more nerdy take, but I think, even more valuable,

998
01:15:19.010 --> 01:15:20.550
lesson that I had there

999
01:15:20.929 --> 01:15:26.949
is the following that I wanna share with the listeners, especially the the computer scientists that listen.

1000
01:15:28.525 --> 01:15:29.824
So, as you,

1001
01:15:30.364 --> 01:15:33.905
said, as you know, there are two big set apps. There's iOS version,

1002
01:15:34.605 --> 01:15:38.704
by Jack. It is written in Swift. That is the native language for

1003
01:15:39.005 --> 01:15:40.545
iOS, for iPhones.

1004
01:15:41.220 --> 01:15:46.520
And there's the Android version that is written in Kotlin. That is the native programming language for Android.

1005
01:15:46.820 --> 01:15:49.960
So these are two completely separate projects,

1006
01:15:50.740 --> 01:15:53.320
that have completely different programming languages.

1007
01:15:53.780 --> 01:15:54.030
And,

1008
01:15:54.735 --> 01:16:06.915
you know, I'm not a Kotlin dev, and I'm, like, I'm just gonna assume that Jack is also not a Swift dev, but we were both able to build in programming languages that we're not very familiar with. Obviously, we both know how to program.

1009
01:16:07.295 --> 01:16:12.090
So, you can just you can use a programming language that you've never used before

1010
01:16:12.390 --> 01:16:14.250
by relying on AI.

1011
01:16:14.870 --> 01:16:23.690
And now here comes the nifty and super interesting part, and I think that's going to change kind of like be an industry changing thing, is

1012
01:16:24.415 --> 01:16:31.155
usually when you start making an app and you want it to be available on iOS and on Android at the same time,

1013
01:16:31.615 --> 01:16:38.915
and you're a small team, let's say you're like a start up, you have, like, three people, you have maybe five people, and you just got your seed round,

1014
01:16:39.260 --> 01:16:41.420
and you have a couple $100

1015
01:16:41.420 --> 01:16:43.280
on your bank account, and you wanna

1016
01:16:43.660 --> 01:17:06.555
build this MVP, and you wanna push it out to the world, and you want it to be available for iOS and Android. What you usually do, and this is very common, is you build a cross platform app first. Because your team is small and your resources are limited and the time that you have is also very limited, what you do is, like, you get the you do the mini min max principle. You're, like, least amount of effort,

1017
01:17:07.239 --> 01:17:09.659
a maximum amount of result

1018
01:17:10.040 --> 01:17:13.659
is usually a cross platform app. What's that what does that mean?

1019
01:17:14.360 --> 01:17:23.765
For for there are some programming languages out there that work on iOS and Android at the same time. So these might be Kotlin multiplatform

1020
01:17:24.545 --> 01:17:25.045
or,

1021
01:17:25.425 --> 01:17:36.485
Flutter or React Native. Those are kind of the popular ones that many companies that get started, they use these languages first, and they build the app

1022
01:17:37.050 --> 01:17:45.790
in a very small team. Like, could be a single person, maybe two people working on a single app, a single code base. Then you compile it to both Android and iOS,

1023
01:17:46.170 --> 01:17:47.630
and then you ship your product.

1024
01:17:48.329 --> 01:17:50.505
And if you grow and if you're

1025
01:17:50.965 --> 01:17:59.864
successful, then you get more funding, you grow your team. And then at some point, maybe a half a year, maybe a year later, you sit down again and say, now guys, okay. We're now getting serious.

1026
01:18:00.565 --> 01:18:01.545
We have some traction.

1027
01:18:01.880 --> 01:18:25.765
Let's now build a native Android app and a native iOS app side by side because now we have, like, a team of 20 people or something. So, typically, what you would have done before wipe coding is to go that round. First, build a multiplatform app, grow the company, then build two native apps, and then ship that to the world. This is what, for example, I think Uber and, like like, so many companies do exactly that.

1028
01:18:26.625 --> 01:18:27.125
Now

1029
01:18:27.870 --> 01:18:41.010
what we've just learned, at least with this experience, is that things are changing a lot in that regard. So what you can do today is you could start the way we did it with BigChat is first, you know,

1030
01:18:41.425 --> 01:18:46.645
one person goes ahead and builds an iOS app just completely by themselves, completely disregarding Android,

1031
01:18:47.105 --> 01:18:54.245
just puts out an iOS app. And then a second person or even the same person, doesn't need to be an Android app Android developer,

1032
01:18:54.625 --> 01:18:56.085
can take this finished software

1033
01:18:56.390 --> 01:19:03.530
and just put it into an LMM and say, now translate it to native Android. And what would have taken, like, 20 people in your company

1034
01:19:03.910 --> 01:19:11.755
to maybe or 10 people in your company to build two apps and to maintain two apps at the same at the same time, keep them all with feature

1035
01:19:12.295 --> 01:19:16.875
parity at the same time, now works with essentially either one person or maybe

1036
01:19:17.175 --> 01:19:20.155
two per two people. So the the,

1037
01:19:21.335 --> 01:19:25.470
the barrier to entry to build native apps has dropped

1038
01:19:25.870 --> 01:19:26.370
significantly.

1039
01:19:26.670 --> 01:19:32.850
And this is just because the the language that we share now is not React Native, but it's English.

1040
01:19:33.310 --> 01:19:37.250
Both of us can speak English, so we can just both compile English

1041
01:19:37.630 --> 01:19:42.425
to either Swift or to either Kotlin. And so that's how we ended up with two native,

1042
01:19:43.365 --> 01:19:49.625
implementations of Pitch Hat. And I think this is actually, like this is the game changer. This might be, like, sound a bit,

1043
01:19:50.485 --> 01:19:51.625
unimportant for

1044
01:19:52.120 --> 01:19:56.060
those who don't know how you know, who are not into software development.

1045
01:19:56.520 --> 01:20:11.495
But for those who are working in companies today who who hear this will like, should be super excited about this and maybe also change their plans of how they wanna build their apps because at this point, you can, like, literally just do things so much easier.

1046
01:20:11.875 --> 01:20:13.395
Especially now I'm gonna,

1047
01:20:13.955 --> 01:20:18.775
be done with my monologue, I I promise. But especially if you build something

1048
01:20:19.075 --> 01:20:29.559
with a shared library. Now let's say, we wanna build a Casio wallet, a native Casio wallet for Android and for iOS, and we have this amazing library called CDK that is written in Rust.

1049
01:20:29.860 --> 01:20:34.679
So, basically, all of the complicated stuff is already done in Rust, and that's been cared for.

1050
01:20:35.235 --> 01:20:38.055
Now instead of hiring two people that

1051
01:20:38.435 --> 01:20:38.935
one

1052
01:20:39.315 --> 01:20:48.470
building an Android app and one person building an iOS app, what I would do today is probably hire no one and just take the Rust library that we have and

1053
01:20:48.850 --> 01:21:00.870
build a very slim and thin layer of Kotlin and a thin layer of Swift around it that is just the UI and almost doesn't do anything else, just the UI that is native in that platform language

1054
01:21:01.265 --> 01:21:02.805
and have a super performant,

1055
01:21:03.345 --> 01:21:09.525
super native looking, and, like, native feeling app that you usually would have, you know, needed

1056
01:21:09.825 --> 01:21:13.365
a a large larger team of of software developers for. So

1057
01:21:13.989 --> 01:21:18.070
extremely excited. Things are changing. I think, like, programmers out there should be,

1058
01:21:18.710 --> 01:21:21.449
most afraid of what's happening right now.

1059
01:21:21.830 --> 01:21:23.369
If you're not using these

1060
01:21:23.750 --> 01:21:28.170
tools today and you're not in the process of mastering these tools,

1061
01:21:28.565 --> 01:21:32.585
then, you know, just, you know, think about what's going to be in five years,

1062
01:21:32.965 --> 01:21:42.665
and think about what a start up will look like in five years and whether, you know, whether you'll be one of the people who keeps their job or one of the people who will lose their job because

1063
01:21:43.369 --> 01:21:45.389
many of us will lose their jobs.

1064
01:21:45.770 --> 01:21:46.829
That much is clear.

1065
01:21:47.690 --> 01:21:48.510
A a a company

1066
01:21:49.050 --> 01:21:50.670
that has to decide between

1067
01:21:51.690 --> 01:21:52.829
three Jedis

1068
01:21:53.210 --> 01:21:54.429
being able to use

1069
01:21:54.889 --> 01:21:55.869
AI really well

1070
01:21:56.329 --> 01:21:57.309
or 20

1071
01:21:57.610 --> 01:21:58.110
midwits

1072
01:21:58.815 --> 01:22:00.115
that, still

1073
01:22:00.495 --> 01:22:03.075
rely on just complete manual coding,

1074
01:22:03.775 --> 01:22:04.915
they don't care about,

1075
01:22:05.295 --> 01:22:07.395
like, the how to do your profession

1076
01:22:07.855 --> 01:22:08.355
correctly.

1077
01:22:08.975 --> 01:22:11.395
They care about the efficiency of the operation.

1078
01:22:12.550 --> 01:22:12.710
And,

1079
01:22:13.350 --> 01:22:14.969
so this is a kind of

1080
01:22:15.270 --> 01:22:17.290
a warning sign as well to the developers

1081
01:22:17.750 --> 01:22:30.415
is learn these tools, learn to use these tools, and especially learn it today because in two years, they will be very different. These tools will change very fast, and you should be, like, out there. You should be on top of all these things

1082
01:22:30.875 --> 01:22:38.175
and, in like, increase your productivity by multiple x. And, you know, I didn't know what it means

1083
01:22:38.715 --> 01:22:40.735
to to enter the singularity.

1084
01:22:41.590 --> 01:22:43.450
I couldn't imagine what it means

1085
01:22:44.070 --> 01:22:45.050
that a person

1086
01:22:45.510 --> 01:22:47.210
could 10 x their productivity.

1087
01:22:47.510 --> 01:22:56.730
Like, I my mind cannot comprehend what it means to you know, I will never be able to read 10 times as fast or to think 10 times as fast,

1088
01:22:57.415 --> 01:23:00.475
but I can build code now 10 times as fast.

1089
01:23:00.855 --> 01:23:03.915
And that's going to change everything. I'm pretty sure about that.

1090
01:23:07.175 --> 01:23:07.915
Love it.

1091
01:23:10.369 --> 01:23:10.869
Lovely.

1092
01:23:13.090 --> 01:23:13.989
First off

1093
01:23:14.530 --> 01:23:29.425
first off, we have Aggie, maintainer and creator of mpub.cash app, 10,000 sads, and he says Cali's bit chat port made me do a one eighty on vibe coding. If you know what you are doing, vibe coding puts you more in the position of a software architect. Modules that are self contained

1094
01:23:29.885 --> 01:23:34.765
that you can clearly define an interface for are a one shot 99%

1095
01:23:34.765 --> 01:23:35.585
of the time.

1096
01:23:36.390 --> 01:23:37.530
Aggie, I have,

1097
01:23:39.030 --> 01:23:44.810
my signal contact information is on Odell dot x y z. If you wanna come on dispatch sometime, I would love to have you.

1098
01:23:45.190 --> 01:23:47.590
And we have the tester zapped 42,000

1099
01:23:47.590 --> 01:23:48.090
sets.

1100
01:23:48.735 --> 01:23:58.034
He says Cashew and Noster will take Bitcoin based payments to the next level. I like how nuts zaps are easier to verify than l n zaps. We just need j p 55 to come around.

1101
01:23:58.655 --> 01:23:59.155
Cali,

1102
01:23:59.775 --> 01:24:00.675
No. We don't.

1103
01:24:01.590 --> 01:24:04.250
We don't. That's the beautiful thing. You don't have to ask permission.

1104
01:24:05.910 --> 01:24:07.610
Never apologize for your monologues.

1105
01:24:07.910 --> 01:24:10.410
These are my favorite conversations I have on dispatch.

1106
01:24:11.190 --> 01:24:11.590
And,

1107
01:24:12.070 --> 01:24:14.250
I don't know if the freaks have noticed, but

1108
01:24:14.735 --> 01:24:17.875
a lot of feedback I've received from our past conversations is,

1109
01:24:19.375 --> 01:24:23.554
to bite my tongue and not interrupt and let just let you run and let you go.

1110
01:24:23.934 --> 01:24:26.514
And, I will say that I thoroughly enjoy it.

1111
01:24:26.940 --> 01:24:30.800
Not only do you have a you have a fascinating mind, but also you you,

1112
01:24:31.180 --> 01:24:34.160
do not like using video. So I get to turn off my video,

1113
01:24:34.940 --> 01:24:36.400
do some free weight exercises,

1114
01:24:36.860 --> 01:24:38.960
and just listen to you run, and it's

1115
01:24:39.925 --> 01:24:42.105
it's a joy from my perspective too.

1116
01:24:42.805 --> 01:24:44.505
Great. No. That's on my mind.

1117
01:24:45.525 --> 01:24:46.025
I,

1118
01:24:47.525 --> 01:24:51.065
well, that's what but I get caught off guard when you end the monologue. Can't unsee.

1119
01:24:52.245 --> 01:24:52.565
I,

1120
01:24:55.449 --> 01:24:57.469
what was I gonna say? I was gonna say,

1121
01:24:59.369 --> 01:25:09.550
I mean, the cool part is so then the user gets the benefits of native apps, and then the developer gets the benefits of cross platform because I think it's really hard to hit scale without cross platform.

1122
01:25:09.975 --> 01:25:11.915
It's really hard to recommend tools

1123
01:25:13.095 --> 01:25:19.595
without being able to just blindly say download this app regardless of what platform they're using.

1124
01:25:20.295 --> 01:25:23.835
When you have to say, like, oh, use Amethyst on Android or on

1125
01:25:24.900 --> 01:25:28.840
iPhone. It, like, just adds more friction to the recommendation on the conversation.

1126
01:25:29.380 --> 01:25:29.700
But when

1127
01:25:30.980 --> 01:25:33.080
I'm just laughing at the live chat now.

1128
01:25:33.380 --> 01:25:34.500
But when you have,

1129
01:25:35.460 --> 01:25:42.155
when when you have cross platform, it just it's just way easier to hit scale. It's way easier to get adoption. So we get the benefits of native,

1130
01:25:43.415 --> 01:25:51.355
with the benefits of cross platform at the same time. It's just it's just what a time to be alive. It it seems incredibly powerful. So

1131
01:25:51.815 --> 01:25:52.955
last piece here,

1132
01:25:54.060 --> 01:25:55.760
because we're going kind of long.

1133
01:25:58.380 --> 01:25:58.880
But,

1134
01:26:00.780 --> 01:26:01.920
you and

1135
01:26:02.780 --> 01:26:03.280
Dorsey

1136
01:26:04.060 --> 01:26:06.800
and Ravel and Gleason and Jeff,

1137
01:26:08.545 --> 01:26:09.925
I think I named everybody,

1138
01:26:11.025 --> 01:26:12.805
have this vibe coding collective,

1139
01:26:13.665 --> 01:26:14.725
called Android,

1140
01:26:15.105 --> 01:26:16.245
and other stuff.

1141
01:26:17.425 --> 01:26:20.805
Is the goal here It's not a vibe coding collective. No.

1142
01:26:21.185 --> 01:26:25.660
That's, like, definitely what your external messaging has has portrayed it as.

1143
01:26:26.540 --> 01:26:30.240
So I'm just gonna keep calling it a Vibe Coding Collective until you prove me otherwise.

1144
01:26:31.820 --> 01:26:32.060
The

1145
01:26:32.780 --> 01:26:36.255
and he and and Jack specifically seeded it with $10,000,000.

1146
01:26:36.335 --> 01:26:40.755
Is the goal here for maintenance going forward of BitChat is being handled by

1147
01:26:41.215 --> 01:26:43.635
that not that organization? Or

1148
01:26:44.014 --> 01:26:57.230
how is how does like, now that you did it, now that you created a native Android app that's cross compatible with iOS, like, how is BitChat maintenance going forward? Is it completely separate from ant other stuff, or how you think about it?

1149
01:26:57.610 --> 01:27:02.090
So, yeah, and and other stuff isn't isn't directly BitChat related. But,

1150
01:27:02.490 --> 01:27:02.990
so

1151
01:27:03.370 --> 01:27:05.390
what we are, we're we're a collective,

1152
01:27:05.825 --> 01:27:09.605
and we wanna build Nostra stuff. And, specifically, we wanna

1153
01:27:09.985 --> 01:27:13.365
we wanna build, like, high quality Nostra experiences that,

1154
01:27:13.905 --> 01:27:27.239
that are still that we feel are still lacking. So one of the issues with the Nostril ecosystem, although, like, that is one of the best things about Nostril is that we have so many different things, is the lack of quality

1155
01:27:27.620 --> 01:27:28.360
of the,

1156
01:27:28.739 --> 01:27:37.835
of the few things. And one one of the examples of, like, a really high quality product out there is Primal, for example, which, unfortunately

1157
01:27:38.295 --> 01:27:39.114
or fortunately

1158
01:27:39.575 --> 01:27:41.915
is a VC funded company. So,

1159
01:27:42.695 --> 01:27:44.795
I mean, all all all power is that

1160
01:27:45.095 --> 01:27:50.580
I love. I I I use Primal too. Right? It's a great product. But, Primal,

1161
01:27:51.199 --> 01:27:54.020
at the end of the day, needs to follow their

1162
01:27:54.560 --> 01:27:55.780
investors' interests

1163
01:27:56.080 --> 01:28:01.219
too. Like, they are not even I'm the I'm the investor. You don't have to talk about me in the third person.

1164
01:28:02.085 --> 01:28:03.865
Well, I I I, you know,

1165
01:28:04.965 --> 01:28:06.905
I mean, as long as you stay

1166
01:28:07.285 --> 01:28:12.425
as long as you stay true to yourself, maybe it works out. But generally speaking, the approach

1167
01:28:12.885 --> 01:28:15.625
has has proven to multiple times

1168
01:28:16.020 --> 01:28:16.520
that

1169
01:28:17.059 --> 01:28:18.679
that VC funded projects

1170
01:28:19.059 --> 01:28:19.559
themselves

1171
01:28:19.860 --> 01:28:23.159
are not immune to external external influences.

1172
01:28:23.699 --> 01:28:28.440
And, at some point, there will always be a point where you have to decide

1173
01:28:28.795 --> 01:28:30.494
whether you're going to maximize

1174
01:28:30.954 --> 01:28:32.494
the goals of your investor

1175
01:28:33.275 --> 01:28:40.014
or maximize the original goals that you have set to yourself. So we wanna just break out of that loop

1176
01:28:40.315 --> 01:28:41.054
and still

1177
01:28:41.434 --> 01:28:42.815
be able to, like,

1178
01:28:43.540 --> 01:29:02.175
build a cohesive group of people that work on one thing together. So BitChat itself is independent from that. It has just started, like, completely independent. But as, you know, you know, as I'm working on it and as people as as the cashew people are working on it, obviously, it's going probably going to play a role also in that environment.

1179
01:29:02.555 --> 01:29:19.869
But our our original goal with that collective is not is not BitChat itself. So I I will have to keep maintain BitChat, and I will also have to get more, you know, support and people and help from people to keep keep it alive and and make it just work really well. But with, other stuff,

1180
01:29:20.170 --> 01:29:21.070
we want to,

1181
01:29:21.449 --> 01:29:38.885
focus mainly on no store experiences. And so we have a couple projects that we already started doing. One of the things that we've built so far was Chorus, which was a, kind of a community forum prototype that we've built, also vibe coded. That's why also the association with vibe coding is so strong.

1182
01:29:39.240 --> 01:29:41.180
But we put it out in a couple days,

1183
01:29:41.840 --> 01:29:45.260
to to prove to ourselves how far we can go with,

1184
01:29:45.880 --> 01:29:49.100
by relying on AI. But we're all very experienced,

1185
01:29:49.880 --> 01:29:53.980
developers in that collective. So we know what the limits of it are and,

1186
01:29:54.495 --> 01:30:01.315
how much, you know, vibe versus non vibe is necessary to make software maintainable over time. So,

1187
01:30:01.775 --> 01:30:11.810
Chorus was was one stepping stone to our larger goal, and our large larger goal essentially is to create a community app experience on top of Nasr

1188
01:30:12.190 --> 01:30:13.010
that can rival

1189
01:30:13.469 --> 01:30:14.530
the big tech

1190
01:30:14.830 --> 01:30:15.330
community

1191
01:30:15.870 --> 01:30:23.835
platforms as well. So we're not going to build, like, another Twitter clone for Nasr. For now, we're focusing on building a community

1192
01:30:24.295 --> 01:30:25.735
app platform. So,

1193
01:30:26.455 --> 01:30:32.235
we we're still it's in the design, and I don't know, like, how much of it was already shared or not. But, essentially,

1194
01:30:32.855 --> 01:30:37.310
you can think of Chorus, which is like this forum experience as just one single component

1195
01:30:38.570 --> 01:30:40.670
of what we're trying to aim at.

1196
01:30:41.210 --> 01:30:48.830
So we're super frustrated in the collective. We're super frustrated about the different choices of how how you can manage communities

1197
01:30:49.290 --> 01:30:53.284
today outside of the nostrils sphere. So you can think of,

1198
01:30:54.145 --> 01:30:54.885
for example,

1199
01:30:55.585 --> 01:30:56.085
Discord

1200
01:30:56.465 --> 01:30:57.364
or Slack

1201
01:30:57.744 --> 01:31:06.110
or, you know, these chat based community apps that are out there. Some of, some of the people out there might have also, you know, set up a matrix server,

1202
01:31:06.490 --> 01:31:14.190
at some point and know how how much how hard it is to just set that up. And then even if you do so, you cannot take,

1203
01:31:14.650 --> 01:31:18.615
your identity and just move somewhere else. So there are many problems

1204
01:31:18.995 --> 01:31:20.615
of, like, peep organizing

1205
01:31:21.075 --> 01:31:22.675
a group of people that,

1206
01:31:23.075 --> 01:31:28.855
there are solutions on the Internet right now, and either of those solutions are commercial

1207
01:31:29.940 --> 01:31:38.040
company funded, like VC funded, or companies that that kind of need to trap you in their ecosystem. I'm talking about, for example,

1208
01:31:38.580 --> 01:31:40.280
Discord, Microsoft Teams,

1209
01:31:40.740 --> 01:31:42.280
Slack, and so on.

1210
01:31:42.645 --> 01:31:45.145
Or you have, these kind of janky,

1211
01:31:46.244 --> 01:31:47.065
hard to use

1212
01:31:47.445 --> 01:31:49.465
and hard to set up systems

1213
01:31:49.844 --> 01:31:56.425
like Matrix, for example, for your own community. And for us as developers, these are essential tools that we

1214
01:31:56.770 --> 01:32:02.550
rely on every day. We we use this all the time. Like, we have for for Casio, we have our own matrix server.

1215
01:32:03.090 --> 01:32:05.030
We unfortunately also use

1216
01:32:05.409 --> 01:32:11.750
Telegram a lot for community stuff or, like, open community where everyone can just join and start asking questions.

1217
01:32:12.095 --> 01:32:22.515
But we also use for internal communications, we also use signal a lot. So we we kind of scattered around different platforms and, like, basically, all of them are bad, and none of them,

1218
01:32:22.975 --> 01:32:24.915
gives us what we need. And so

1219
01:32:25.430 --> 01:32:31.610
what we want to, focus on, what we have already started working on is a community

1220
01:32:32.710 --> 01:32:36.470
tool that we adopt, universes. For now, that's the that's the,

1221
01:32:37.030 --> 01:32:41.210
the the name that we, go with for now is that we wanna build,

1222
01:32:41.965 --> 01:32:47.345
something that you can set up for yourself, for your community, that you can host yourself, or you can also

1223
01:32:47.805 --> 01:32:51.185
let others host for you. But it uses NoSir

1224
01:32:51.485 --> 01:32:52.305
for your identity,

1225
01:32:52.685 --> 01:33:01.369
so you are you can never be trapped inside that thing. You can always take your community and just move it somewhere else. And in our group of people, so you mentioned,

1226
01:33:03.449 --> 01:33:05.070
Jeff g, and me,

1227
01:33:06.010 --> 01:33:11.445
we we bring all the components together to build, like, a really slick and

1228
01:33:11.985 --> 01:33:12.805
safe and,

1229
01:33:13.745 --> 01:33:14.245
useful

1230
01:33:14.864 --> 01:33:16.405
experience. So we have,

1231
01:33:17.105 --> 01:33:18.805
we have private communications

1232
01:33:19.185 --> 01:33:27.390
built on white noise and MLS that is going to be, like, integrated into this as well. So you can use it as your replacement for,

1233
01:33:27.710 --> 01:33:30.370
your signal group or your matrix group, for example.

1234
01:33:30.670 --> 01:33:31.170
And,

1235
01:33:31.550 --> 01:33:38.210
we have Gleeson who's, like, a OG in communities, has built so many platforms already and knows exactly how they behave.

1236
01:33:38.625 --> 01:33:43.684
And Revel is a is a is a master in UI and UX research, has done,

1237
01:33:44.065 --> 01:33:47.284
a lot of work also in researching how people use Nostr

1238
01:33:47.664 --> 01:33:51.045
already. And I'm kind of the money and Bitcoin guy, so,

1239
01:33:51.585 --> 01:33:53.125
bringing Cashew in there,

1240
01:33:54.290 --> 01:34:10.475
allowing us to use money within those systems and to allow them to fundraise within those systems and pay each other and and all the, you know, build marketplaces and so on on top of that. So what we are thinking about is not a super app. I wouldn't wanna call it that way, but, like,

1241
01:34:11.015 --> 01:34:11.595
a competition

1242
01:34:12.375 --> 01:34:19.114
to community applications that already exist that is built on NoStar that doesn't necessarily feel like NoStar,

1243
01:34:19.920 --> 01:34:22.480
but allows you to have, like, safe and secure,

1244
01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:23.300
communication

1245
01:34:23.680 --> 01:34:29.220
that is extendable and doesn't lock you in. And that's what that's what we're working on. So BitChat

1246
01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:33.054
might become a a part of that, just because,

1247
01:34:33.675 --> 01:34:39.534
like, there are several people in the group who who are interested in working on it, but it's not our main focus.

1248
01:34:44.790 --> 01:34:45.290
Okay.

1249
01:34:49.030 --> 01:34:51.930
I mean, I wanna start with the earlier comments,

1250
01:34:53.190 --> 01:35:00.250
because this is something that I think about a lot with my two major focuses, which is open SaaS and ten thirty one.

1251
01:35:02.605 --> 01:35:03.105
So

1252
01:35:03.885 --> 01:35:04.625
I also

1253
01:35:05.965 --> 01:35:06.945
came to the conclusion

1254
01:35:07.965 --> 01:35:12.625
years ago that that VCs were a key part of the problem. And, like, VCs,

1255
01:35:12.925 --> 01:35:14.385
specifically, like, traditional,

1256
01:35:15.730 --> 01:35:17.110
you know, hyper successful,

1257
01:35:18.370 --> 01:35:23.270
massively money deploying VCs were and their incentive structure was

1258
01:35:24.050 --> 01:35:27.190
was was corrupting a lot of what was being built.

1259
01:35:31.045 --> 01:35:32.505
And and and specifically

1260
01:35:33.045 --> 01:35:33.545
but

1261
01:35:34.005 --> 01:35:35.065
and so so

1262
01:35:35.365 --> 01:35:37.065
OpenSats actually came first.

1263
01:35:38.645 --> 01:35:40.665
I mean, 10/31 was in its infancy.

1264
01:35:41.270 --> 01:35:42.410
I launched OpenSats,

1265
01:35:43.430 --> 01:35:50.730
and then after and then and 10/31, actually, the the the two founders of ten thirty one, my partners over there, Grant and Jonathan,

1266
01:35:51.910 --> 01:35:54.010
were one of the first checks into

1267
01:35:54.795 --> 01:35:55.295
OpenSats.

1268
01:35:55.755 --> 01:35:57.615
They helped get us off the ground,

1269
01:35:59.515 --> 01:36:01.215
because they loved what we were doing.

1270
01:36:03.915 --> 01:36:10.015
But what what I noticed really quickly was there is just not that much money going around in the open source ecosystem,

1271
01:36:10.530 --> 01:36:12.550
in the open source charitable ecosystem.

1272
01:36:13.090 --> 01:36:13.989
Right? And,

1273
01:36:16.449 --> 01:36:17.670
while that obviously,

1274
01:36:18.050 --> 01:36:18.630
you know,

1275
01:36:19.329 --> 01:36:20.710
seems like the best path,

1276
01:36:21.329 --> 01:36:23.670
charity money that is forever and

1277
01:36:24.804 --> 01:36:26.344
doesn't come with strings attached.

1278
01:36:27.204 --> 01:36:31.545
If you look at the donors, it's just really not that many people. I mean, the open sats,

1279
01:36:32.324 --> 01:36:33.224
we've raised,

1280
01:36:34.244 --> 01:36:36.885
like, mid 30,000,000, like, $35,000,000,

1281
01:36:36.885 --> 01:36:38.264
$36,000,000.

1282
01:36:39.030 --> 01:36:40.329
Most of that was Jack.

1283
01:36:42.790 --> 01:36:46.730
I'm very excited for what and other stuff and you guys are doing over there.

1284
01:36:47.429 --> 01:36:49.690
That was also seeded by Jack with 10,000,000.

1285
01:36:49.909 --> 01:36:51.929
Probably the most successful sustainable

1286
01:36:52.230 --> 01:36:54.684
open source freedom focused project is Signal,

1287
01:36:55.545 --> 01:36:57.244
which was acquired by Twitter

1288
01:36:57.784 --> 01:36:59.485
in, like, I think, 2011.

1289
01:36:59.864 --> 01:37:05.085
And then Jack because Jack wanted to encrypt DMs on Twitter. Never encrypted DMs on Twitter,

1290
01:37:05.610 --> 01:37:10.190
partially probably because of a lot of, like, the VC big money interests, but then,

1291
01:37:10.970 --> 01:37:14.430
released signal open source. It was previously called TechSecure.

1292
01:37:15.050 --> 01:37:16.750
Released that project open source,

1293
01:37:17.210 --> 01:37:24.195
and then one of the WhatsApp cofounders got mad at the Facebook acquisition and then seeded money into that project.

1294
01:37:25.455 --> 01:37:28.675
So a lot of the roads lead back to Jack. And so

1295
01:37:30.415 --> 01:37:32.835
my conclusion has come to the fact that money

1296
01:37:33.570 --> 01:37:34.070
is

1297
01:37:34.530 --> 01:37:38.790
what supercharges all of these things. Capital is what supercharges all of these things.

1298
01:37:40.530 --> 01:37:42.869
And finding now that we have Bitcoin,

1299
01:37:43.969 --> 01:37:52.685
finding sustainable models for open source projects is really the holy grail. Because if, god forbid, something happens to Jack and that funding stops,

1300
01:37:53.545 --> 01:37:58.365
where do we sit? And if you wanna, like, think about the scale of something like ten thirty one,

1301
01:37:58.985 --> 01:38:00.445
which is my for profit

1302
01:38:01.340 --> 01:38:01.840
venture,

1303
01:38:02.780 --> 01:38:04.880
we've deployed $200,000,000.

1304
01:38:05.420 --> 01:38:13.840
Open SaaS deploys about a million dollars a year a month. We're quite proud of that. I think that's a scale that that most open source charities

1305
01:38:14.445 --> 01:38:14.945
never

1306
01:38:15.565 --> 01:38:22.284
have never been able to to grasp. We send it all out in Bitcoin. But still, that dichotomy of $35,000,000

1307
01:38:22.284 --> 01:38:24.205
raised versus $200,000,000

1308
01:38:24.205 --> 01:38:25.980
raised is, like, completely different.

1309
01:38:26.540 --> 01:38:29.120
As it's just like on it's just on a whole another scale.

1310
01:38:29.660 --> 01:38:31.280
So if the goal is sustainable

1311
01:38:33.100 --> 01:38:34.239
open source projects,

1312
01:38:34.860 --> 01:38:41.680
I think there's actually a a strong path that can be happened in the for profit world. And Primal is actually a really good example here

1313
01:38:43.204 --> 01:38:46.425
since you mentioned it. And I appreciate the good words that you mentioned,

1314
01:38:46.965 --> 01:38:51.704
towards that project because I think Milian and his tiny team of, like, seven people,

1315
01:38:52.724 --> 01:38:53.945
get a lot of shit,

1316
01:38:54.680 --> 01:39:02.220
but they're trying to do things the right way. I mean, that project is a completely false stack. Right? Everything they build is open source,

1317
01:39:02.840 --> 01:39:04.060
and they're trying to

1318
01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:06.940
be profitable and sustainable with additional

1319
01:39:09.945 --> 01:39:12.605
with, like, services built on top that are optional.

1320
01:39:13.705 --> 01:39:14.205
Right?

1321
01:39:14.585 --> 01:39:24.045
I think that's the harder path. I think Primal is another good example here where we're the largest investor by far. It's probably just angels that have invested because traditional VC

1322
01:39:25.080 --> 01:39:32.060
doesn't want to try that path. That's it's the harder path. The harder path is releasing open source software and trying to monetize ethically.

1323
01:39:32.680 --> 01:39:35.660
They realized there is an issue that needs to be solved.

1324
01:39:36.760 --> 01:39:42.915
Balaji was just on a 16 z's podcast who's, like, probably a 16 z's like the big evil empire.

1325
01:39:43.935 --> 01:39:47.875
And what did he shield? He shield forecaster and base because they

1326
01:39:48.335 --> 01:39:49.475
they can be predatory

1327
01:39:49.775 --> 01:39:52.275
and and and dump shit coins on retail,

1328
01:39:53.295 --> 01:39:56.275
and do a bunch of different ad sales and other things there.

1329
01:39:56.850 --> 01:40:03.590
But they can't do that on Noster. But he he diagnosed the core part of the problem, which is being able to communicate without permission,

1330
01:40:04.530 --> 01:40:15.265
and being able to verify things without permission in an AI deep fake type of world. So I just wanna push back a little bit on the idea that something being investment funded

1331
01:40:15.805 --> 01:40:17.905
is inherently bad. I think

1332
01:40:19.165 --> 01:40:22.065
profit leads to human flourishing. It leads to sustainability.

1333
01:40:22.445 --> 01:40:27.745
And at the core, you probably at and other stuff have the same problem. It's like, if you don't

1334
01:40:28.420 --> 01:40:29.639
find a sustainable

1335
01:40:29.940 --> 01:40:34.199
business model for these projects, you are gonna be relying on Jack's funding

1336
01:40:35.380 --> 01:40:37.159
forever to maintain them.

1337
01:40:38.099 --> 01:40:40.520
And in our case, if we don't find a sustainable

1338
01:40:41.205 --> 01:40:42.185
if we don't find sustainable

1339
01:40:42.725 --> 01:40:43.865
profit or sustainable

1340
01:40:44.325 --> 01:40:44.825
funding,

1341
01:40:45.525 --> 01:40:46.025
then

1342
01:40:47.365 --> 01:40:51.625
us as investors would have to keep funding primal forever, and we don't wanna be in that situation.

1343
01:40:53.045 --> 01:40:58.270
I I agree with most of what you said. It's just I I need to make a distinction there.

1344
01:40:59.290 --> 01:40:59.949
I'm not

1345
01:41:00.570 --> 01:41:01.790
strictly talking about

1346
01:41:02.250 --> 01:41:02.750
nonprofit.

1347
01:41:03.369 --> 01:41:11.975
Right? So it will be the best outcome of this is finding a sustainable business model. And I think this is something, you know, that that just

1348
01:41:12.755 --> 01:41:14.055
some open source projects

1349
01:41:14.435 --> 01:41:16.055
have managed, and

1350
01:41:17.075 --> 01:41:19.175
and and it's certainly a possibility.

1351
01:41:19.795 --> 01:41:20.695
The big difference,

1352
01:41:21.075 --> 01:41:22.295
I think, is whether

1353
01:41:22.835 --> 01:41:28.130
you're kind of in quotes, like, captured from the beginning or not. And

1354
01:41:28.590 --> 01:41:31.490
yes. So not every open source project

1355
01:41:31.950 --> 01:41:34.450
can start off with, like,

1356
01:41:35.470 --> 01:41:36.530
charitable funding.

1357
01:41:37.230 --> 01:41:38.190
And, this is also

1358
01:41:38.855 --> 01:41:41.114
you know, there are lots of projects that that

1359
01:41:41.574 --> 01:41:44.635
emerge from just funding from OpenSats itself.

1360
01:41:45.094 --> 01:41:45.594
But

1361
01:41:45.975 --> 01:41:46.475
the

1362
01:41:46.855 --> 01:41:48.795
individual, like, projects themselves

1363
01:41:49.655 --> 01:41:56.500
often have the goal of becoming profitable at some point. Right? So the ratio of what works and what doesn't work,

1364
01:41:57.280 --> 01:42:04.980
I don't have numbers whether, you know, open source, fully open source, charitable, funded projects have a lower probability of becoming,

1365
01:42:05.680 --> 01:42:07.860
sustainable at some point or not.

1366
01:42:08.355 --> 01:42:08.755
But,

1367
01:42:09.315 --> 01:42:12.055
it doesn't mean that just because you start off

1368
01:42:12.675 --> 01:42:32.300
with a donation that you cannot find ways to to make profit over the long term. And this is certainly like a possibility with the projects that we're doing with, and other stuff. So we have these different pillars of individual people working on in on on different things. Like, for example, Jeff g is working on white noise. And, obviously,

1369
01:42:32.600 --> 01:42:34.014
you know, right now,

1370
01:42:34.315 --> 01:42:36.895
I I'm not sure if they have a profit,

1371
01:42:37.275 --> 01:42:37.775
motive,

1372
01:42:38.315 --> 01:42:43.534
or or profit model yet or not. But it certainly is something that,

1373
01:42:44.235 --> 01:42:53.510
they they can be looking forward to in the in the future. And the same goes also for Casu. Casu right now is a fully nonprofit open source, fully open project

1374
01:42:53.890 --> 01:42:56.550
that has kind of, lots of contributors

1375
01:42:57.090 --> 01:43:04.665
funded from various different sources that we're extremely lucky and super help like, thankful for that we are receiving the support in

1376
01:43:05.045 --> 01:43:08.345
in to in form of grants to individual contributors.

1377
01:43:09.125 --> 01:43:10.185
But at some point,

1378
01:43:10.485 --> 01:43:11.065
you know,

1379
01:43:11.605 --> 01:43:12.905
there should be a business

1380
01:43:13.365 --> 01:43:16.725
coming out of this that also can sustain itself because,

1381
01:43:17.650 --> 01:43:18.470
I don't wanna,

1382
01:43:19.170 --> 01:43:20.390
you know, bet on,

1383
01:43:20.930 --> 01:43:21.430
the

1384
01:43:22.850 --> 01:43:23.910
charitable, outlook.

1385
01:43:24.690 --> 01:43:27.430
Just the the fact that we can get donations

1386
01:43:27.810 --> 01:43:29.110
forever. And,

1387
01:43:29.650 --> 01:43:34.945
and this is what we're already seeing. And, for example, for Cashew, if I can make that example, is

1388
01:43:35.324 --> 01:43:36.125
there are,

1389
01:43:36.844 --> 01:43:39.824
maybe now five to six businesses that use Cashew

1390
01:43:40.125 --> 01:43:43.905
in some way or other, and some of them even use it as their core,

1391
01:43:44.284 --> 01:43:47.005
you know, product in their in their business. So,

1392
01:43:48.190 --> 01:43:48.690
protocols

1393
01:43:49.550 --> 01:43:57.570
can be a platform for businesses to build on top. But I think we both would agree that the protocol itself

1394
01:43:58.190 --> 01:43:58.690
should,

1395
01:43:59.470 --> 01:43:59.970
have

1396
01:44:00.670 --> 01:44:01.490
no other

1397
01:44:01.870 --> 01:44:02.910
incentives than,

1398
01:44:04.425 --> 01:44:06.125
increasing freedom and accessibility

1399
01:44:06.665 --> 01:44:10.844
and, you know, empowering people to build stuff on top of that. So

1400
01:44:11.145 --> 01:44:13.804
being profitable is not evil, but

1401
01:44:14.185 --> 01:44:19.410
choosing your investors correctly in the beginning is an extremely hard thing to do.

1402
01:44:20.370 --> 01:44:21.430
And most projects,

1403
01:44:21.810 --> 01:44:36.765
they are not in a position where they can decide who invests in them, and many of them just need to take anything that they are offered. And at some point, this leads to conflict, and it has led to conflict over and over and over again. You have made the examples before. So,

1404
01:44:38.025 --> 01:44:40.565
whether it's, WhatsApp or or,

1405
01:44:41.065 --> 01:44:41.565
whatever.

1406
01:44:42.105 --> 01:44:42.845
Right? So,

1407
01:44:43.305 --> 01:44:45.965
hopefully, and this is also my hope for Nasr

1408
01:44:46.585 --> 01:44:56.710
and and for Bitcoin, we are seeing this. Like, on Bitcoin, we're seeing more and more profitable businesses built on top, and I think it's also very hard on Bitcoin. I I don't know what

1409
01:44:57.010 --> 01:44:59.110
the what the ratio of profitable businesses

1410
01:44:59.650 --> 01:45:00.150
are,

1411
01:45:00.610 --> 01:45:01.670
for for

1412
01:45:02.165 --> 01:45:18.050
ten thirty one, and that might be the same for other VCs as well. So it's just a hard business, and the probability of being profitable is very low. Whether you start off with VC funding or you're bootstrapped by your own money or you start as a nonprofit

1413
01:45:18.590 --> 01:45:19.730
protocol and then,

1414
01:45:20.590 --> 01:45:22.530
start a business on top of it. Right?

1415
01:45:24.350 --> 01:45:27.490
No. I mean, like, I agree. I think that was very well said.

1416
01:45:28.030 --> 01:45:33.255
It's definitely the harder path. I just think it's it's the goal regardless is to try

1417
01:45:34.915 --> 01:45:38.295
and find sustainable funding in a open system.

1418
01:45:38.755 --> 01:45:39.074
And,

1419
01:45:41.474 --> 01:45:43.900
I I, you know, I think,

1420
01:45:44.520 --> 01:45:45.020
people

1421
01:45:45.720 --> 01:45:46.540
seeing firsthand

1422
01:45:47.080 --> 01:45:49.740
trying to raise money for open source projects,

1423
01:45:53.240 --> 01:45:59.054
it's quite difficult. It's way diff more difficult than people that are not exposed to it realize.

1424
01:46:00.795 --> 01:46:04.255
And it's some it's definitely the more difficult path. And,

1425
01:46:05.915 --> 01:46:11.695
I mean, I will just say that on the ten thirty one side, we try and do things differently and practice what we preach,

1426
01:46:12.690 --> 01:46:15.510
but we're very rare in that front. And most

1427
01:46:16.210 --> 01:46:17.190
Bitcoin companies,

1428
01:46:18.610 --> 01:46:24.790
that are trying to build on top of open protocols without, like, vendor lock in and stuff like that have a hell of a time raising.

1429
01:46:25.955 --> 01:46:27.815
And that's it's no coincidence

1430
01:46:28.115 --> 01:46:31.255
that the most of the time I think the the number is,

1431
01:46:31.955 --> 01:46:34.535
90% of the time, we're the exclusive investor,

1432
01:46:35.075 --> 01:46:37.410
because people just aren't willing to take the risk.

1433
01:46:37.890 --> 01:46:41.750
And I'm well aware that most VCs say this, but we are actually

1434
01:46:42.290 --> 01:46:43.830
incredibly founder friendly

1435
01:46:44.450 --> 01:46:44.950
and,

1436
01:46:47.090 --> 01:46:49.830
make sure that the founders retain control over

1437
01:46:50.215 --> 01:46:54.155
over their baby and the vision. We're not trying to come in here

1438
01:46:54.855 --> 01:46:58.875
and push people around and tell them how to do things. We're just here to support where we can.

1439
01:47:00.455 --> 01:47:02.475
That that is amazing. And, I mean,

1440
01:47:02.989 --> 01:47:07.650
both of us, we know that ten thirty one is not representative. Right? So you guys are doing

1441
01:47:08.030 --> 01:47:10.050
a great job, and you're just different

1442
01:47:10.350 --> 01:47:13.969
than the rest of the landscape out there. And, like,

1443
01:47:14.590 --> 01:47:21.245
the amount of bullshit that I get in my inbox is okay. I bet. I'm aware. You should see the bullshit I see. Money on stuff.

1444
01:47:24.105 --> 01:47:24.605
I've

1445
01:47:24.985 --> 01:47:28.125
the some of the pitches and some of the investor calls I've had are

1446
01:47:30.825 --> 01:47:31.645
quite infuriating.

1447
01:47:32.790 --> 01:47:38.710
But, the hard path is, I think, the better path, and we just gotta take it. Anyway, I just I've

1448
01:47:39.270 --> 01:47:41.130
once again, I just I

1449
01:47:41.670 --> 01:47:49.825
I consider you a very close friend. I have a ton of respect for you. I'm really grateful to have you building in the ecosystem, and,

1450
01:47:50.350 --> 01:47:51.363
it's just,

1451
01:47:51.887 --> 01:47:52.387
I,

1452
01:47:52.912 --> 01:47:54.437
I just felt

1453
01:47:54.962 --> 01:48:00.587
I felt the need to push back a little bit that,

1454
01:48:01.080 --> 01:48:08.460
basically, like, the one major negative we see about primal specifically in the Nasr ecosystem is that they're trying to be profitable and that they've received investment.

1455
01:48:09.880 --> 01:48:13.260
But I would just add in there just really quick is, like,

1456
01:48:13.875 --> 01:48:19.815
the amount of investment they've received is is quite negligible compared to who they're trying to compete with.

1457
01:48:21.795 --> 01:48:24.295
And we're gonna try and make that money go a long way.

1458
01:48:25.730 --> 01:48:30.310
Callie, this was awesome rip. I always enjoy our rips. It went longer than I was planning.

1459
01:48:32.929 --> 01:48:34.550
The family that we have

1460
01:48:34.929 --> 01:48:35.670
that homeschools

1461
01:48:36.050 --> 01:48:40.469
their her three sons where my son, my toddler goes,

1462
01:48:41.035 --> 01:48:42.655
canceled on us today. So

1463
01:48:44.475 --> 01:48:46.575
I left the wife in charge of the children.

1464
01:48:47.515 --> 01:48:49.135
Gotta do what you're doing tomorrow.

1465
01:48:49.595 --> 01:48:56.079
I gotta get back to that. But, I think last time we ripped, we said, like, every six months, we're gonna do,

1466
01:48:56.460 --> 01:49:00.639
an update. Can we can we continue this trend? I these are my favorite conversations.

1467
01:49:01.659 --> 01:49:12.954
Of course. I I love talking to you. I'm very happy to join you again in six months or earlier, whenever it works. Awesome. I'm down I mean, I'm down for earlier once again. I think,

1468
01:49:13.435 --> 01:49:15.534
things are moving quickly in a good way.

1469
01:49:16.635 --> 01:49:18.094
So let's keep up the momentum.

1470
01:49:18.715 --> 01:49:20.335
You have any final thoughts,

1471
01:49:20.954 --> 01:49:22.974
for the listeners before we wrap?

1472
01:49:25.630 --> 01:49:31.410
I mean, what I wanna say is just hoping that someone out there is listening and

1473
01:49:32.430 --> 01:49:38.130
doesn't know what to do with their job or their life and feels inspired by

1474
01:49:38.645 --> 01:49:42.025
the open source world that we're building. And,

1475
01:49:42.965 --> 01:49:49.465
I hope that if you're a developer out there and you don't like your corporate job, that you can consider coming

1476
01:49:50.245 --> 01:49:51.705
into the Bitcoin ecosystem

1477
01:49:52.324 --> 01:49:53.705
or Nostra ecosystem

1478
01:49:54.600 --> 01:49:55.040
and,

1479
01:49:55.480 --> 01:49:57.179
helping us to move this

1480
01:49:57.639 --> 01:49:58.540
kind of revolutionary

1481
01:49:59.719 --> 01:50:00.780
project forward.

1482
01:50:01.080 --> 01:50:03.820
We need every single person who can help. So,

1483
01:50:04.360 --> 01:50:05.340
if you feel

1484
01:50:05.719 --> 01:50:09.895
like you can contribute to this in any way, then,

1485
01:50:10.695 --> 01:50:12.715
talk to me, talk to anyone

1486
01:50:13.335 --> 01:50:13.835
who,

1487
01:50:14.295 --> 01:50:16.075
who can show you around, and,

1488
01:50:16.615 --> 01:50:19.035
we can use anyone who

1489
01:50:19.415 --> 01:50:20.395
can help us,

1490
01:50:21.015 --> 01:50:29.310
bring Bitcoin to the world. And I think if, you know, if we're not gonna do it, then no one is going to do it. So, please join us.

1491
01:50:30.730 --> 01:50:31.470
Love it.

1492
01:50:32.730 --> 01:50:36.670
I just wanna add a little bit of final thought here on the ten thirty one side.

1493
01:50:37.770 --> 01:50:38.670
I don't think

1494
01:50:41.265 --> 01:50:42.725
we're gonna make a 16

1495
01:50:43.025 --> 01:50:45.205
z obsolete through ideology.

1496
01:50:46.545 --> 01:50:53.685
I think that, if you build on open protocols, you can actually outperform the centralized walled gardens. It's just a harder path that takes longer.

1497
01:50:54.945 --> 01:50:58.160
But our plan at ten 31 is to do it the right way

1498
01:50:58.780 --> 01:51:04.320
and absolutely destroy the returns that a 16 and the others provide to their investors.

1499
01:51:05.900 --> 01:51:07.680
Freaks, if you still use x,

1500
01:51:09.875 --> 01:51:14.375
make sure you follow Cali. It's x.com/calibtc.

1501
01:51:14.675 --> 01:51:17.895
Every time you post, press the retweet button. It goes a long way.

1502
01:51:19.075 --> 01:51:22.090
He's our leader over there, and he needs your support.

1503
01:51:22.630 --> 01:51:23.610
I'm not a leader.

1504
01:51:24.390 --> 01:51:29.370
I, you're a leader whether you like it or not. Those are the best the best leaders are the ones that don't wanna be a leader.

1505
01:51:30.150 --> 01:51:32.570
So thank you for your service and your sacrifice.

1506
01:51:33.795 --> 01:51:37.175
I, Who knows? That was a difficult thing to say.

1507
01:51:38.355 --> 01:51:38.855
I,

1508
01:51:40.114 --> 01:51:44.295
we're gonna keep the trend going with dispatches. We're keeping momentum up.

1509
01:51:44.755 --> 01:51:46.835
All the relevant links are still dispatch.com.

1510
01:51:46.835 --> 01:51:47.670
Share with your friends and

1511
01:51:50.310 --> 01:51:56.570
and family. It goes a long way. It's in every every podcast app. Just search dispatch in your favorite podcast app.

1512
01:51:57.110 --> 01:51:58.730
Join us because I'm a Bitcoin developer.

1513
01:52:00.070 --> 01:52:00.890
Come up.

1514
01:52:01.954 --> 01:52:06.054
Or don't maybe do it on the side for a little bit. You know? Get your feet wet.

1515
01:52:07.395 --> 01:52:16.509
It's kind of a superpower having a separate paycheck while you while you build Freedom Tech on the side. Ask to take advantage of it if you can. Fulfilling life. It's actually fulfilling.

1516
01:52:17.209 --> 01:52:18.029
There you go.

1517
01:52:18.569 --> 01:52:20.189
Well, be fulfilled, freaks.

1518
01:52:20.649 --> 01:52:22.989
Love you all. Stay on bull stack sets. Peace.

1519
01:52:23.929 --> 01:52:24.235
Bye.