CD170: HODLBOD - BUILDING BETTER APPS

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 07/25/2025 22:37:41
Duration: 7535.274
Channels: 1

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And speaking of Bitcoin, Tesla disclosing in its earnings this week that its digital asset holdings are currently worth about 1 and a quarter billion dollars that's up sharply from a year ago. A new piece on cmbc.com

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looks at the money they left on the table though after they sold, three quarters of their holdings in '22.

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You can check out the full story on cnbc.com.

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I did peek at that, and I think if they had held everything, it wouldn't be 1 and a quarter billion. It'd be worth about 5. Oh, they could use that. Yes. They could use that.

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Happy Bitcoin Friday, freaks.

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It's your host, Odell, here for another civil dispatch,

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the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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That intro was CNBC,

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I believe

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today, talking about how Tesla fumbled the bag on their Bitcoin treasury.

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I think that's an interesting theme to watch,

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not whether or not companies will actually start stacking Sats,

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but the opportunity cost they've had from not doing it. I think CNBC is probably one step away from realizing

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that, yeah, Tesla probably shouldn't have sold

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their Bitcoin, but,

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any company that didn't acquire any Bitcoin,

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actually had even bigger opportunity cost loss than Tesla. At least Tesla stacks some Bitcoin. Anyway, Freaks, our show today has absolutely nothing to do with that, but it just seemed

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like an interesting time stamp in the world

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of Bitcoin.

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Dispatch is funded by our audience. We have no ads or sponsors.

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We are powered by viewers like you sending Bitcoin

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to the show.

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The two easiest ways to do that is through Zaps on Noster,

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where you can find the show at primal.net/citadel,

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or through podcasting two point o apps like Fountain Podcasts, which you can find in your favorite app store. The largest Zap on Fountain

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last episode

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was from Stimmy

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forty HPW.

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He sent 21,000 sats, said great to hear from Kauffman. While Spectre was a game changer in 2020, Keeper looks like a solid tool for today's new coiners. And the largest Zap on Noster was from ride or die freak, map 21 with 10,000 sets. Thank you, freaks, for supporting your show supporting the show. All relevant links are at silldispatch.com.

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Anyway,

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I have Huddlbot here, good friend, return guest.

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He's heavily focused on Noster

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specifically.

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He's got two projects, Flotilla and Coracle,

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that he maintains. How's it going, Huddlbot?

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I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Matt.

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Pleasure is all mine.

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We have ZapStream working. I see Pseudo Carlos, ride or die freak, asking, is it working?

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The attacker is asleep today

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and is not attacking the stream.

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I'm not worth DDoSing, I guess. Oh, well.

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I was starting it was starting to go to my head that the DDoSes were only happening during my shows.

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Well, we have a lot to talk about. I also see we have legends are sleepy in the YouTube comments. The show streams out to,

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YouTube. You can search dispatch there. It streams out to Noster at

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civildispatch.com/stream,

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and it streams out

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to x under the 1031 account,

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1031 funds.

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Yeah. Shout out to Sir Sleepy with,

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like, 80 to 90% of the energy,

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in this, in this livestream.

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Yeah. We got well, they'll they'll they'll

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they'll cycle in. We still don't have a calendar function on Nasr. The whole streaming situation,

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which I, like,

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just jumped in with two feet, like, two years ago,

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has really been inching along. Like, we need to have

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I I think it's, you know,

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a a Bitcoin integrated freedom focused type Twitch

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experience

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is a

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maybe not a low hanging fruit because it requires a lot of infrastructure, and it's it's actually quite difficult to pull off,

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but could be a major use case for Nostr.

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Yeah. Well, on that note,

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nostrilcal.com

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is

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a a recent addition to the ecosystem.

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I don't I can't necessarily endorse it. I haven't audited the code. I'm immediately skeptical because it's written with, MKStack,

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but

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I I tried coded. It looks pretty good so far. I think,

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the vibe code was the bootstrap, and the guy's putting in some some real effort. So Yeah. So MKStack is Gleeson's project. Gleeson is,

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has been a guest on the show before, which makes it easy to vibe code master projects.

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I mean, look. I think that's one piece.

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We really need, like, app integration. Right? Like, so if you go live

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or you have a live show coming,

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the apps that people use should be notifying them ahead of time. So I don't have to send out just kind one post letting people know that the show is live.

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So it's a little bit more of a

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a lift, I think. I mean, this is good. It's obviously just

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nice step improvement. But, like, in Primal, for instance,

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you'd have no idea we're live right now, and that's something we wanna change in the near future.

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But it needs to be integrated. And some apps have led the way on that. I I really like Nasjira's integration,

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where it has, like, a nice live bar on the top similar to what you'd expect on, like, an x or something. It says that your friends are live.

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Fountain has a pretty good integration,

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and they're all using the same, like, open HLS spec. So even if you

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are streaming to ZapStream servers, it still shows up in the other apps or someone else's servers or something like that. Yeah. That's getting there.

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Notifications are tricky. I I worked on notifications for a couple weeks, recently,

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and,

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they're a lot harder to do a 100%

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than it seems like. You know?

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There's

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there's all kinds of different solutions. Like, Pokey on Android is one of the best known ones, and they

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run I think the way they work is they do it without a server. Right? They run the Android app in the background.

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But Android and iOS both have these really restrictive,

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permissions

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that only allow you to have

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maybe, like, ten minute latency notifications.

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So immediate notifications aren't reliable,

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without a server. And then, of course, servers

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are cryptographically

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tied to a given app,

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on both platforms,

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not necessarily on web,

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but,

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so you you have to run a specific server for your specific app,

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in order to get push notifications that way. And then, of course,

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because keys are

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in the custody of the user,

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your push server can't actually always get all the content that it needs to in order to notify the user. Like, public broadcast social media is is easy because it's all public.

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But, you know, I've been working on communities

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that have access controls enforced by the relay.

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And if I want push notifications from those, I have to find a way to, like,

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give the push server access

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to

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the relay, the community relay.

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And I can either do that. There's, like, three ways to do that. You can

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I'm just jumping straight in with both feet here. I love it. But it's interesting it's an interesting problem. And it it, like, presents a real problem for Nostril development in general because,

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everything is decoupled. Right?

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The because the server doesn't own the user's identity,

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it can't act on behalf of the user anymore. And so now we have to come up with all these, like, weird,

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workarounds in order to use conventional,

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like, legacy

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architectures.

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So, you know, you can do it three ways. You can ask the relay, hey. Could you, like, replicate all your data to my push server? Or you could have the push server,

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like, get an invite code and ask

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the,

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the the relay for permissions. So the relay itself actually has access,

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which is the one I'm using currently.

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But the the problem with that is if you give the relay access, now anyone or the the push server access. Now anyone who goes through the push push server can exfiltrate data that the push server has access to. So, that's a problem. And then, of course, like, the obvious one is share your key with the push server, which is

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sort of insane.

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I

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like, you wouldn't wanna store your key on a server even if, like, the server was there for signing stuff.

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You could share, like, a bunker URL so you could you could revoke the access. But,

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you know, I I think, like,

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that's probably the the only way you can really do it is have the server act on behalf of the user,

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at least to do it in a robust way. But in order to do that, you need to build a delegate bunkers

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so that

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they're, so that they're,

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you know, locked down.

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But and I made a pull pull request for that a while ago, and no one was interested. So, anyway, there's, like, our two minute sketch of, it's hard to do push notifications securely, particularly if you want especially if you want privacy involved because a lot of times, it just it becomes the push server is the man in the middle,

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that that sits in between.

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We have SoapMiner's app 21,000 sats. Thank you, SoapMiner, for your ongoing support. Best soap in the business.

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Nice. My whole family loves it. I use it as well. It's great.

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Supposedly,

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he's gotten so much organic

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exposure that he's backlogged by two weeks right now. I saw a a Nostra note about this yesterday.

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Fantastic.

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That's exactly what we like to see. You you inspire me, SoapMiner. You you almost make me wanna hang up my Nostra dev hat and go, like, make soap or or, like, carve wood or something like that.

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I mean, it seems like so far, like, that's the single best business model in Nostra,

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the random artisans we are graced with.

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And I also just thought it was funny that as we were having that conversation about security, we saw Sir Sleepy join the chat and said, I just raw dogged my unsec into the ZapStream iOS test flight. Pray for me.

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I mean, on the notifications

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piece,

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I actually wasn't talking about push notifications.

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I'm a little bit of a weird beast. Like, Citadel Dispatch would have way more listeners and way more viewers,

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if I wasn't just constantly trying to kneecap myself

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for, like, principal reasons.

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And one of the things is, like, I tried I told all my listener like, I had a huge following on x. I told all of them to delete their x.

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I told everyone to, like, stop using YouTube.

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I'm like,

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like, the YouTube growth has basically

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completely stalled.

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I don't I don't,

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I don't do the clickbait

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on you for the YouTube Algo. I don't do, like, the open face bullshit.

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I don't do ad monetization, so the Algo hates me.

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And one of the things I've told people for years, and I continue by it, is don't enable push notifications. I think push notifications

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are

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are a horrible addictive thing.

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And, actually, I've been heavily involved in primal development, and it was one of the things we wrestled with for a while. Like, we were very

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late to the push notification game, and we only ultimately did it because we had so many users asking for it. Like, people just expected and want it.

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But, anyway, this was long winded. My point was, I actually think maybe, you know, some people might want push notifications that will obviously get more people into the live streams that they don't know it's about to be live. Their phone vibrates, tells them we're live.

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But at at the minimum, like, what we really need is, like, if you're already scrolling in the app, if you're already in the app,

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like, it should be obvious that we're live right now. Like, there should be a little badge around us setting saying we're live. Like, on the top of your feed, it should say, like, Odell and Hotlobot are live, that kind of thing.

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And that's much easier to implement. You're already in the app.

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You're already connecting to relays and in primal's case, the caching server.

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Yeah. Totally. I'm I'm with you on the,

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just kill all the engagement stuff.

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You know, like, on my podcast, my my cohost Jordan, will say, you know, like us on Apple Podcasts and stuff. Yeah. And I'll just follow-up with, like, don't like us on Apple Podcasts.

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Yeah. It's a weird it's it's a weird back and forth. But on that note, by the way,

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still dispatch is available in all favorite podcast apps. So feel free to subscribe.

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Take your friend's phone. Click the subscribe button on your friend's phone. Maybe we'll get a dose of knowledge there.

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Share with them. The name of, Huddlebod's podcast, because he's not gonna show it himself, is thank God for Nostr. You can search in your favorite podcast app and press the subscribe button.

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But, yeah, I hate that too. But that that's one of the ones that, like, I

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I mean, Peter got mad at me once I went on what Bitcoin did, and I

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said the line to subscribe to dispatch, like, five times.

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Because at least podcasting is, like, a little bit more it's like open system.

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You know? It's a little bit less predatory.

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Yeah.

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Alright. Sounds good.

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I think it's funny that,

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it is ironic with Noster

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that it's being bootstrapped by people that tend to kind of hate social media.

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I'm

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like, what's your opinion on you know what I mean? It's like,

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like, people that think that that social media is one of the main social media addiction specifically is, like, one of the main issues of our time.

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And meanwhile, we're trying to bootstrap a social protocol as an interesting dynamic.

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Yeah. I constantly am trying to figure out,

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my opinion on that. I'm I,

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was trying to

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form a defense, unapologetic

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for just the Internet in general,

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and I had a hard time doing that.

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I like the Internet. I grew up on, you know, like, Monty Python fan forums and

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writing HTML and whatever.

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But,

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you know, the Internet,

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it's like, okay. Well, it, you know, helps with, communication and and, like, people talking to each other and information and and trade and all this stuff. And it's like, yeah. But are all those unqualified goods?

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Not really.

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Like, just because people are trading doesn't mean that the the thing that it that

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it that, accommodates that doesn't have negative externalities,

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and the Internet has an insane number of negative externalities.

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And I'm a huge hypocrite because I'm a podcaster and a developer, and I write social media and spend way too much time on social media. But,

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you know, ideologically,

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it's hard to make an actual, like, watertight case for that stuff. And I think, like, the way I've made peace with it is the best thing we can do

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is I like to call it reforming technology.

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We're reforming social media.

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Social media is a drug addict who sleeps in the, in the gutter.

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And we're like, hey. Like, buddy, maybe you could, you know, sleep inside tonight or maybe not snort a bunch of cocaine.

219
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So, like,

220
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that doesn't make him a, a good person or a, high functioning member of society, but it's better better than just being completely down and out. So, like,

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at the very least, we can make social media not as predatory. And and I think the only way forward to doing that is to align it with users. Right? Right now it's aligned with platforms

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and b to b business models that are based on

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advertising and, you know, modernity and consumer culture and,

224
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like, the slide from art to entertainment to addiction.

225
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And,

226
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orienting it around users doesn't automatically fix that because

227
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people are also terrible in a lot of ways, but,

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at least they have souls. At least they have self interest,

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whereas, like, you know,

230
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big Internet platforms don't they don't have souls. I'm not, like, anti capitalist. Pablo told me I was anti capitalist this week, so now I have to, be explicit. I mean, we have too many commies on Nasr. We need,

231
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people should make money and be sustainable. You can just do it in an ethical way. It's just more difficult.

232
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Yeah. And as a person other than as a machine.

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I,

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I mean, I like to look at, like

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we live in a digital world now,

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and I'd we should be able to have a healthier experience with our digital tools.

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And there's not many people focused on that because of broken incentives. The incentives

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lead you down quite dystopian paths, and those are the paths of least resistance, and that's why we've gone down those paths.

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But there's a lot to explore to make it a healthier experience.

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I mean and if I just wanna go, like, objectively

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net, like, where the Internet has truly improved my life, most of my closest friends I've met through the Internet.

242
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I mean, we wouldn't be friends you wouldn't be on the show if it wasn't for the Internet.

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So we got that going for us.

244
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But, yeah, there's

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there's a lot of negative externalities that exist.

246
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Yeah. And it's,

247
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I'm probably gonna get skewered for appealing to the experts for this too, but, like, you know, there's so many people who've been thinking about these problems

248
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for thirty years.

249
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You know, the original Cypherpunks and and,

250
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and we're over here on Nostril, like, inventing it all from scratch.

251
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There are some people who have, like, you know, a decade of background in in Bitcoin.

252
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We got Ravel and Jack who've been thinking about this stuff for a long time. But, you know, I've been,

253
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I wanna go to a DWeb,

254
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conference.

255
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Do you know DWebCamp?

256
00:18:41.345 --> 00:18:48.005
No. Plugging it for a few years. But it's, it's a bunch of leftists who go camping together and talk about decentralized technology.

257
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And,

258
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it's just so interesting to me that it's these far left commies who

259
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have been talking about this problem for twenty years.

260
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And now all of a sudden,

261
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all of us, like,

262
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I I don't even know what to call us, but, Bitcoiners,

263
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are are talking about it now. And I wanna, like, build those bridges, but it's so hard to go into those spaces because they're you know, first thing, they're like, here's a code of conduct.

264
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You know, we we're gonna do a land use

265
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acknowledgement,

266
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and then we'll we'll get started. And,

267
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you know, I feel like I've been emotionally abused already by the by the time anything starts.

268
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Yeah. I mean, I do think it's funny.

269
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Like, a lot of that type of

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freedom

271
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tech,

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decentralized tech stuff has been dominated by

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politically left people.

274
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And,

275
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I mean, I saw recently, like, we've had in Bitcoin, we've had, like, this whole, like, knots versus Bitcoin core debate, and, like, the Bitcoin core devs are captured, and people are concerned about incentives.

276
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And then, like, went viral because of some influencers that, oh, now the Tor devs are also woke and captured.

277
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Look. I love the Tor project,

278
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but the Tor project predates

279
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any concerns about what captured devs in Bitcoin. Like, that has always been the case. There, you go into one of their video calls. It's like all blue haired hippies.

280
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I'm very grateful Tor exists, but that has just been the reality of the situation. Until Bitcoin happened, you didn't really have,

281
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like, more libertarian

282
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leaning kind of developer type of focus

283
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in a lot of these projects.

284
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Bitcoin has been more of the exception, and then Nasr kind of inherited that, particularly since the creator, Fiat Jaffe,

285
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is an alleged far right,

286
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influencer.

287
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I mean, there was a fucking horrible article that doxed him and called him a far right influencer. I don't actually

288
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I love Fiat Jeff. I think he's he's he's a great

289
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great contribution to society, but it is an interesting dynamic.

290
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And I think what they miss

291
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is, as a result, a lot of these technologies

292
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aren't actually resistant

293
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to governments

294
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because they feel like governments can be benevolent.

295
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So they automatically have in their threat models

296
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a flaw. It's like a single vulnerability flaw in their threat models. Tor can if if the US government stops giving the blessing to Tor, Tor will not exist.

297
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It just won't. It was never set up to withstand The US Government.

298
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What's cool about Bitcoin

299
00:21:33.735 --> 00:21:35.675
is that it can withstand governments.

300
00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:43.000
What can be cool with Monster is for the same reason, that it can be built to be robust in that type of situation.

301
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And that's when you actually have strong technical foundations that can

302
00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:50.040
can stand the test of time without trusted third parties.

303
00:21:50.775 --> 00:21:56.315
Yeah. I already mentioned the word reformation, but, I I also feel like, we're in the midst of a renaissance

304
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of decentralized technology as well. You know? I I read that book, Crypto, that was written in early two thousands about the early cryptographers,

305
00:22:04.695 --> 00:22:05.910
Diffie and Hellman and,

306
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Shamir and,

307
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Adleman and all those guys.

308
00:22:10.310 --> 00:22:13.130
You know, asymmetric cryptography has been around for fifty

309
00:22:13.510 --> 00:22:16.250
years. And in the nineties, you had Phil Zimmerman,

310
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like, suing the US government,

311
00:22:20.115 --> 00:22:22.535
because of PGP. And he he, like, ignored

312
00:22:23.235 --> 00:22:25.175
so many laws and regulations,

313
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with PGP, just completely phoning it in as far as compliance goes.

314
00:22:30.835 --> 00:22:31.975
And then

315
00:22:32.430 --> 00:22:44.130
I feel like the mantle got taken up by the leftists for twenty years, and Yeah. No meaningful progress was made other than, you know, of this very small core of people who are working on Bitcoin.

316
00:22:45.434 --> 00:22:47.215
And now now, like, with,

317
00:22:47.674 --> 00:22:50.174
we have we we've recovered that ethic,

318
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even if we're not as smart as, you know,

319
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80 or or, you know, Zimmerman or whoever.

320
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At least, like,

321
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.100
we've recovered those values, which is

322
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:07.220
Yeah. That is that's an interesting point because, like, the original cyberpunks were definitely not leftists.

323
00:23:07.520 --> 00:23:09.460
Mhmm. It happened after that movement.

324
00:23:10.095 --> 00:23:14.355
Well, I don't know. There there is there is a lot of, like, Berkeley in the early

325
00:23:14.735 --> 00:23:22.174
Fair enough. Like, cryptographers. Like, they were all out of Berkeley. They were all hanging out with, like, big children of known communists and stuff. So,

326
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I mean, I think I think there is something that aligns leftism with

327
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decentralization,

328
00:23:28.970 --> 00:23:32.910
at least in theory, because it's like the whole purpose of socialism

329
00:23:33.290 --> 00:23:38.145
is is, you know, what they call justice. It's a distributive and participatory

330
00:23:38.445 --> 00:23:45.025
justice where, like, everyone is is everything's equitable and everyone's the same. And so, like, decentralization,

331
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even just distributed technology,

332
00:23:48.285 --> 00:23:50.065
like, meshes well with that,

333
00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:52.039
but they don't recognize

334
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that government,

335
00:23:55.220 --> 00:23:56.840
cannot actually guarantee equity.

336
00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.799
And if it does, you end up with, like Soviet Russia.

337
00:24:00.419 --> 00:24:05.399
But they have they think about it more than people on the right. You know? They think about it more than than capitalists.

338
00:24:05.775 --> 00:24:14.895
So I think there's something to learn there, but it's hard to spit out the bones at the same time. Well, one of the beauties of dispatch is I do not plan these episodes at all. So,

339
00:24:15.295 --> 00:24:19.715
I will tell you that twenty minutes in, I did not expect us to be at this point of the conversation.

340
00:24:20.580 --> 00:24:24.200
I've been thinking about this a lot. Like, I read a great book recently called,

341
00:24:24.580 --> 00:24:26.600
Tools for Conviviality by Ivanovich.

342
00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:27.860
And,

343
00:24:28.580 --> 00:24:34.519
he's I I don't he's like a Christian he's a South American Christian socialist. I don't even know what that means.

344
00:24:35.665 --> 00:24:39.765
But he does borrow some of these definitions of justice and applies them to,

345
00:24:40.145 --> 00:24:41.045
you know, contextualization

346
00:24:41.585 --> 00:24:42.885
of of technology

347
00:24:43.825 --> 00:24:56.310
in in ways that support human flourishing rather than degrade it. And I I really like what he says. And then he's like, oh, you know, and we also have to make sure that people can't ruin the the, environment through,

348
00:24:56.690 --> 00:24:58.310
being using too much energy.

349
00:25:00.530 --> 00:25:04.595
And and he's like, you know, birth control, it's the, it's the ideal convivial

350
00:25:04.895 --> 00:25:05.395
tool.

351
00:25:06.575 --> 00:25:10.995
So, like, he completely loses me in certain places, but he's got some amazing insights.

352
00:25:12.655 --> 00:25:18.420
Yeah. Well, I mean, I will say that at this point, it's weird. It's and probably as part of the social media effect,

353
00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:21.220
and, like, the influencer effect, but,

354
00:25:23.060 --> 00:25:24.520
it does feel like

355
00:25:26.020 --> 00:25:29.960
it's harder to interact with people that you disagree with on some things.

356
00:25:30.675 --> 00:25:36.295
It's like everyone wants to go in their echo chamber, but, like, I I think one of the beauties of the human experience is,

357
00:25:36.835 --> 00:25:43.975
like, you can disagree with someone on certain things, agree with them on other things, debate the actual issues, and improve.

358
00:25:45.929 --> 00:25:48.670
But that has been lost in a lot of ways,

359
00:25:49.610 --> 00:25:51.790
in modern society, which is a shame.

360
00:25:52.809 --> 00:25:58.830
We I see sir sleepy zapped us 25,000 zaps. Highest zap of the day. Thank you, sir.

361
00:25:59.345 --> 00:26:03.605
Appreciate you. He said he zapped from Cash App, and it worked, and he seems surprised.

362
00:26:04.385 --> 00:26:06.485
But that's the cool part about open protocols.

363
00:26:09.745 --> 00:26:13.540
I don't know where to go from so let's just pull it back for a second.

364
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:17.140
Nostra you've been building on Nostra for a while.

365
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:23.780
It feels like every other day now, I see doom and gloom posts about not the state of Nostra adoption.

366
00:26:25.600 --> 00:26:26.800
How do you feel about

367
00:26:27.735 --> 00:26:29.515
like, are we spinning our wheels?

368
00:26:29.895 --> 00:26:31.835
Is Nostra dead? Is it over?

369
00:26:32.535 --> 00:26:34.315
Should people still focus on it?

370
00:26:35.174 --> 00:26:40.760
Yeah. Yeah. Nostra's dead. I think it's time to time to pack it up. No. I think there's,

371
00:26:41.380 --> 00:26:41.860
like,

372
00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:54.600
well, you know, I always go back to the thing that I said when I got into this space, three and a half years ago, like, before I really got on board with Noester, which is, like, solving social media is a ten year problem with a 0% chance of success.

373
00:26:55.395 --> 00:26:55.895
And,

374
00:26:56.355 --> 00:26:58.935
I think our our odds have only improved.

375
00:26:59.715 --> 00:27:00.375
You know,

376
00:27:00.755 --> 00:27:01.655
I think Nostra

377
00:27:02.035 --> 00:27:02.855
is a,

378
00:27:03.875 --> 00:27:10.350
it's a particular kind of community. You know, social media is really weird because it's intended to be a static

379
00:27:11.370 --> 00:27:12.590
technological system

380
00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:16.990
that is an environment for any kind of community.

381
00:27:17.529 --> 00:27:20.990
And that's not a coherent idea because people are complex

382
00:27:21.450 --> 00:27:22.190
and technology

383
00:27:22.490 --> 00:27:24.110
is static. And that's why everyone's

384
00:27:24.485 --> 00:27:25.705
frustrated with technology.

385
00:27:27.365 --> 00:27:33.865
And, like, we're using AI to just to just push people off more instead of actually solve their problems in a lot of cases.

386
00:27:34.805 --> 00:27:37.865
It's it's super annoying. And I you know, Nostril,

387
00:27:38.390 --> 00:27:40.250
If it's just a forum for Bitcoiners

388
00:27:41.110 --> 00:27:42.570
and that's all it ever is,

389
00:27:42.950 --> 00:27:49.610
like, that's fine. Maybe it's not worth all the millions of dollars that import have been poured into grants and stuff like that. But,

390
00:27:50.674 --> 00:27:56.615
you know, it it used to be I read this book called Design for Community. I read a lot because I have a lot of questions.

391
00:27:57.155 --> 00:27:59.475
You keep snickering at how much I read, but,

392
00:28:00.515 --> 00:28:03.174
No. I'm also reading the live chat. It's not just you.

393
00:28:03.715 --> 00:28:06.455
I love reading. People should read. Read freaks.

394
00:28:06.830 --> 00:28:08.110
Read weird stuff too.

395
00:28:08.510 --> 00:28:21.010
But it was written in 02/2006, and it was it was by a guy who designs web forums for a living. And he was like, here's all the ways that you can design your forums so that it, you know, benefits people. And that was right before social media completely flattened the entire

396
00:28:21.470 --> 00:28:21.970
world.

397
00:28:22.515 --> 00:28:23.015
And,

398
00:28:23.635 --> 00:28:28.855
you know, it was just it was just interesting to me to see a guy putting so much effort into building bespoke

399
00:28:29.235 --> 00:28:30.375
software for

400
00:28:30.675 --> 00:28:31.175
communities.

401
00:28:31.795 --> 00:28:42.240
It was like, there are these certain affordances and a certain aesthetic and stuff that meshes with the purpose of the community and the kind of people who are in it. And then Facebook and its giant blue steamroller

402
00:28:42.620 --> 00:28:43.120
just

403
00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:44.800
show up and flatten,

404
00:28:45.820 --> 00:28:54.335
what, three and a half billion people into a single little box. More than that. Yeah. It's crazy. And, like, Nostra is an awesome solution to that because,

405
00:28:55.034 --> 00:28:58.255
like, a, right now, it's it's kinda monoculture

406
00:28:58.635 --> 00:29:05.294
in a lot of ways, and so it's like, it's okay. We can build the we can build the protocol that works for us as Bitcoiners.

407
00:29:06.230 --> 00:29:14.810
Our values are reflected in the technology that gets created. But at the same time, because it's a protocol, you can have different clients with different

408
00:29:15.270 --> 00:29:17.370
affordances and aesthetics and everything

409
00:29:17.670 --> 00:29:18.405
that fit,

410
00:29:19.045 --> 00:29:26.645
different people in different communities. So, like, when people come in from a different community, like, the Japanese developers are a good example. They have different

411
00:29:27.445 --> 00:29:31.225
all the air reply stuff. It's like you you don't need,

412
00:29:32.165 --> 00:29:38.710
reply trees or or thread building if you're, if you're in Japan and using Noister. So the more of these, like,

413
00:29:39.010 --> 00:29:42.230
bespoke use cases come in and this is, like, another,

414
00:29:42.610 --> 00:29:46.150
thing that I'm not sure about. I'm building, like, community software, but,

415
00:29:47.395 --> 00:29:54.775
like, I don't think a single software platform can be customized to to fit every community. And I think that's part of the mistake.

416
00:29:55.075 --> 00:29:55.575
Anyway,

417
00:29:56.595 --> 00:29:57.095
Yeah.

418
00:29:57.955 --> 00:29:58.855
Nostra is,

419
00:29:59.315 --> 00:30:00.455
it's great, small,

420
00:30:00.995 --> 00:30:01.495
and

421
00:30:02.080 --> 00:30:05.700
it's also the only protocol that I'm aware of that actually,

422
00:30:07.600 --> 00:30:08.740
solves the

423
00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:09.780
decoupling

424
00:30:10.320 --> 00:30:12.180
of identity and storage.

425
00:30:12.800 --> 00:30:14.740
Right? Like, all these other

426
00:30:15.095 --> 00:30:15.595
protocols

427
00:30:15.895 --> 00:30:17.115
either own your identity

428
00:30:17.415 --> 00:30:18.075
or they

429
00:30:18.455 --> 00:30:26.075
are have, like, permission storage. Like, pub key, it gets the closest. Right? Because it's got cryptographic identity, but then none of the data is signed.

430
00:30:27.255 --> 00:30:29.515
So your home server can just drop you whenever.

431
00:30:30.055 --> 00:30:34.850
So, like, close Are you relying on your home server for the social graph too?

432
00:30:37.070 --> 00:30:37.570
I

433
00:30:38.830 --> 00:30:47.125
yeah. I mean, definitely to store it. I think the social graph is built based on the the keys. So if you if you, like, keep a backup of your home server, then

434
00:30:47.505 --> 00:30:48.805
you can restore it.

435
00:30:50.065 --> 00:30:52.485
But the the data is authenticated

436
00:30:52.785 --> 00:30:53.605
based on

437
00:30:53.905 --> 00:31:23.205
the server's authority, which is derived from the key on the DHT pointing to the home server. Right? And so you have this kinda, like you have this provenance of authority that has to be traced. And that's how legacy systems work. It's like, you don't know something's real unless the guy who gave it to you told you it's real. Yeah. If you use if you use Facebook, like, it's Zuckerberg telling you that it's real. He's doing the verification, and you're just trusting him. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so, like, I think the the way I like to say it that, is,

438
00:31:23.665 --> 00:31:31.080
probably terrible because no one ever understands what I mean is, but Notar aligns the network topology with the social top with with the social graph.

439
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.539
So, you know, it creates this this, like, neutral

440
00:31:34.919 --> 00:31:41.019
layer of relays that are run by people, you know, with interests and and policies and stuff,

441
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:51.875
and then a a different social graph sits on top of that. And so it's really conducive to the uncle Jim model because uncle Jim is based on organic connections between people,

442
00:31:52.255 --> 00:31:53.395
not on some systematic,

443
00:31:54.695 --> 00:31:55.475
you know,

444
00:31:56.895 --> 00:31:58.195
binary tree of

445
00:31:58.530 --> 00:32:11.750
of perfect distribution of computational resources. Like, computational resources are aligned to fit people. And, like, the place that I learned this concept is a friend of mine used to work at Twitter, and he told me how, like, all the caching stuff works over there.

446
00:32:12.315 --> 00:32:18.815
You know, if a regular person tweets, it just, like, it it goes to the inboxes of the three people that follow them.

447
00:32:19.755 --> 00:32:21.294
And so it's only copied

448
00:32:21.755 --> 00:32:22.575
maybe twice.

449
00:32:23.115 --> 00:32:24.815
But if someone super famous

450
00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:30.720
tweets, it goes to an outbox. Just one outbox. There's one copy and the outbox is, like, six machines

451
00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:35.200
that are super beefy and just do nothing but serve that person's content.

452
00:32:35.580 --> 00:32:37.280
And so you've got this, like,

453
00:32:37.580 --> 00:32:41.015
this self healing system of caching nodes

454
00:32:41.395 --> 00:32:44.135
that rearranges itself based on,

455
00:32:44.595 --> 00:32:50.215
how many people are following who and how many how many times that person tweets in a given amount of time.

456
00:32:50.580 --> 00:32:56.600
And it's all centrally controlled and orchestrated, but I think we can get the same kind of thing with the Nostra architecture. We just need,

457
00:32:57.140 --> 00:33:03.000
to figure out the right kinds of, like, incentives and affordances to help the network to self organize in that way.

458
00:33:03.985 --> 00:33:08.965
I have a quick question for you. Are you a rider dog freak? Like, are you a long time listener of serial dispatch and RHR?

459
00:33:09.585 --> 00:33:13.905
Yeah. You guys are the reason that I'm in, Nostril at all. I love it.

460
00:33:14.385 --> 00:33:16.245
Well, I got that going for me at least.

461
00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:18.470
I,

462
00:33:20.130 --> 00:33:37.534
you know, I'm the creator of the Uncle Jim term. Oh, you are? Nice. Congratulations. Why I asked. You're you're so random article is gonna be very long. Just a whole bunch of little, like, phrases and co I was literally just drunk on rabbit hole recap, and I was I was, like, trying to explain the concept of, like, running a node for friends and family.

463
00:33:38.075 --> 00:33:41.995
And at that point, like, it was pre lightning. It was it was supposed to be a self custody

464
00:33:42.780 --> 00:33:45.680
You know, you're not holding custody of someone's funds.

465
00:33:47.420 --> 00:33:57.120
You're just, like, running an electrum server for them. And I was sitting there drunk, and I didn't wanna dox an uncle. So I don't have an uncle named Jim. And that was, like, the first name I could come up with,

466
00:33:58.075 --> 00:33:58.815
that wasn't,

467
00:34:00.315 --> 00:34:03.215
that that that wasn't doxing one of my real uncles.

468
00:34:04.075 --> 00:34:09.615
And then all of a sudden, like, it's just entered the vernacular. It's crazy. Like, I read an article about the uncle Jim model the other day.

469
00:34:10.170 --> 00:34:15.150
Just memes just spread like wildfire. Kinda crazy. It's, yeah, it's perfect. It's a provocative,

470
00:34:16.010 --> 00:34:35.225
metaphor. It's concrete. Yeah, man. I I think you're very good at that. Stay humble, stacks out. Thank you, sir. Dozen things that you say repeatedly. It's, it's I went on there are about a dozen. I went on Mallor's show, which has, like, all newcomers. He's, like, fucking huge on the newcomer top of funnel, Bitcoiner train.

471
00:34:35.605 --> 00:34:47.990
And I said stay on the stacks ass, and, like, the live chat was just like, this guy just speak like, just repeats influencer takes. You know? He doesn't have any original takes or whatever. And I was like, that's kinda cool. Like, I'm down to just fade into the background,

472
00:34:49.810 --> 00:34:51.270
let the myth be bigger.

473
00:34:52.565 --> 00:34:56.585
Okay. Anyway, I got I got completely sidetracked there on uncle Jim,

474
00:34:56.964 --> 00:34:58.984
but we were talking about something important there.

475
00:34:59.684 --> 00:35:03.385
Yeah, to me, like, Nasr as a protocol is incredibly, incredibly

476
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:04.980
unique.

477
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:11.140
And there's just I haven't seen anything else like it.

478
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.180
I don't think it competes with Blue Sky.

479
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.815
I mean, I don't think Blue Sky offers a reasonable alternative for it. I don't think it solves the core of the

480
00:35:20.454 --> 00:35:21.994
problem. I do think it's

481
00:35:22.535 --> 00:35:27.915
hard for people to wrap their head around the lack of, like, guaranteed data availability.

482
00:35:28.454 --> 00:35:29.595
Even though in practice,

483
00:35:31.655 --> 00:35:38.410
you can have, like, j b fifty five wake up one morning and just press delete on his relay, and pretty much nothing of value was lost.

484
00:35:39.910 --> 00:35:48.825
And I think I think people struggle with that aspect a lot. But to me, it's more that's more of a feature than a bug. That is just simple. It kind of

485
00:35:49.445 --> 00:35:51.545
just relies on, like,

486
00:35:52.485 --> 00:35:52.985
basic

487
00:35:53.845 --> 00:35:58.185
kind of incentive structures that people will save things that they deem important.

488
00:35:59.605 --> 00:36:09.730
And it should be interesting, I think. I I think there's been a lot of focus on censorship resistance, which, by the way, is another thing. Like, we don't have guaranteed data availability, and we also don't have guaranteed censorship resistance.

489
00:36:10.109 --> 00:36:12.849
But I think in practice, like, if Kanye comes on to Noster

490
00:36:13.150 --> 00:36:19.555
and says a bunch of anti Semitic shit, like, every one of those notes will be saved by, like, thousands of people because it's fucking Kanye

491
00:36:20.095 --> 00:36:22.195
saying, like, provocative shit.

492
00:36:23.135 --> 00:36:27.795
But there's no way to prove that. Like, I you can't, like, mathematically prove that will happen.

493
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:32.140
But, anyway, there's a lot of focus on censorship resistance,

494
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:34.619
but I think that actual aspect of verifiability.

495
00:36:35.160 --> 00:36:39.400
Right? Like, as we start to see more AI stuff, as we see more deep fake stuff

496
00:36:41.405 --> 00:36:45.665
I mean, like, a Trump true social post can completely change the world.

497
00:36:46.605 --> 00:36:48.145
There can be real ramifications

498
00:36:48.525 --> 00:36:49.025
there,

499
00:36:49.325 --> 00:36:55.500
and there's no way for us to verify if he actually sent it or not, which is just insane when you start to think about it.

500
00:36:56.220 --> 00:36:59.600
Which happened, right, with, like, crypto reserve kind of stuff?

501
00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:01.520
Like, someone some, like,

502
00:37:01.820 --> 00:37:07.120
Ripple staffer was tweeting for him. Right? Yeah. I believe and then I think he got

503
00:37:07.660 --> 00:37:08.800
just like, he

504
00:37:09.180 --> 00:37:11.040
as he's now on Trump shit list.

505
00:37:11.395 --> 00:37:13.015
I mean, the bigger one was,

506
00:37:14.595 --> 00:37:16.215
during the ETF stuff,

507
00:37:17.155 --> 00:37:20.935
Gary Gensler's Twitter account or the SEC's Twitter account got hacked.

508
00:37:22.675 --> 00:37:25.670
And the market moved, like, 20%

509
00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:28.710
on news of ETFs being approved, and it wasn't a real tweet.

510
00:37:29.330 --> 00:37:34.950
Or it was. I came out of his account. I mean, Nasr doesn't necessarily fix that yet because you could get your insight compromised.

511
00:37:35.890 --> 00:37:38.710
But, presumably, like, if Elon wanted to troll the world,

512
00:37:40.855 --> 00:37:43.434
he could literally just post a tweet from

513
00:37:43.734 --> 00:37:49.595
the prime minister of India's account. Like, he could just post a tweet from Modi's account. No one would fucking know.

514
00:37:49.895 --> 00:37:55.059
Kinda crazy. But that hasn't happened. But you'd be burning so much so much,

515
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:56.099
reputation.

516
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:00.019
Well, we can't I mean, it depends what the tweet is. We can't verify

517
00:38:00.720 --> 00:38:07.895
that it happened either. Like, you could easily say and I'm not saying that he would do this, but I am using Elon as an example because

518
00:38:08.435 --> 00:38:09.655
it's a private company,

519
00:38:10.355 --> 00:38:10.855
and

520
00:38:11.875 --> 00:38:26.670
I'm almost positive that it's run like a small business. You know? Like, there's probably not that many, like, user access control systems. Like, there's probably a few people that have a lot of control there. But, like, they could easily just say, like, oh, like, you got hacked. Like, there's no way we can verify. Like, after the fact,

521
00:38:27.450 --> 00:38:37.725
you're just trusting them when they when they say, like, oh, that wasn't the case. Like, how do we know the SEC account actually got hacked? Yeah. And he says it's been them. Like, with activists. You know?

522
00:38:38.125 --> 00:38:45.905
It's not the same thing because it's not an insider, but they they disappear. Someone takes over their account and starts phishing other activists. It's, pretty gross.

523
00:38:46.980 --> 00:38:53.000
Yeah. No. There's a lot of implications there about lack of verifiability, and it's crazy how much of the world relies on these just,

524
00:38:55.700 --> 00:38:56.520
just flawed

525
00:38:56.820 --> 00:39:03.425
flawed platforms that are just not prepared really for a world that moves so fast, that is so reliant on

526
00:39:03.805 --> 00:39:10.145
on on digital comms and digital identity. And then on the opposite side, like, I also think it's hilarious that, like, you said,

527
00:39:11.645 --> 00:39:14.545
millions of dollars of grant money has gone into Nasr.

528
00:39:15.245 --> 00:39:16.145
Like, really,

529
00:39:16.720 --> 00:39:19.700
there's hasn't been that much money that has gone into Nasr.

530
00:39:21.120 --> 00:39:28.260
I'm grateful for the money that has come in specifically through OpenSats because I spend so much time and dedicate so much of my time for OpenSats,

531
00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:31.715
in a charitable way as a volunteer.

532
00:39:33.055 --> 00:39:39.795
But if you look at the grand scheme of things, it's just a drop in the bucket. And on the VC side, it's fucking hilarious. Like, peep I mean,

533
00:39:40.735 --> 00:39:41.635
people say,

534
00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:52.560
oh, like, the VCs are co opting Nasr. Like, there is no money. There's very little money going into Nasr. And then you compare it to something like the DIDS project,

535
00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:53.920
right,

536
00:39:54.460 --> 00:39:57.585
where they're, like, spending years and years and, like,

537
00:39:57.984 --> 00:40:03.845
hundreds of millions of dollar. I don't know how much money, like, Microsoft and Block and all those guys spent on Dids.

538
00:40:04.145 --> 00:40:06.405
And where are we? They're just nonexistent.

539
00:40:07.185 --> 00:40:08.885
We just ship it live on Oster.

540
00:40:09.744 --> 00:40:11.765
Like, it really does put it all into perspective.

541
00:40:12.970 --> 00:40:15.550
Why is it you know, the the rest of the world just assiduously

542
00:40:15.850 --> 00:40:22.590
avoids talking about Nostril? Is it is it political or because they think we're technically dumb or, like, because we don't have any money or what is it?

543
00:40:22.890 --> 00:40:33.515
Because, yeah, like, money does not correlate with impact for sure. I think what I mean, I think part of it is that we're a little bit irrelevant still. We don't have marketing budgets.

544
00:40:34.775 --> 00:40:41.515
I will say that I know for a fact on x, you get you get shadow banned and deranked if you post about Nasr.

545
00:40:44.350 --> 00:40:46.770
It's like you you see it right away if you put

546
00:40:47.070 --> 00:40:56.450
the the words Nostr or links to no Nostr websites on there. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, there's a lot of focus on Elon specifically for me because I loved

547
00:40:57.165 --> 00:41:02.225
Twitter, and that was my platform. And Twitter had a lot of issues before Elon took it over too.

548
00:41:02.525 --> 00:41:06.865
But it was the only social media I used. But, really, the big enemy is is Zuck.

549
00:41:07.965 --> 00:41:14.140
The only thing stopping his user base from growing is more kids getting born. He's, like, basically, like, hit the population cap.

550
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:16.460
And

551
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:23.019
and they're definitely doing, like, shady things about external linking and stuff like that.

552
00:41:23.720 --> 00:41:30.915
There's very little doubt in my mind. I mean, I don't have exact proof on that, but that's probably part of it. And then there's this other thing that

553
00:41:32.015 --> 00:41:34.915
it's like anyone on Nasr who's, like

554
00:41:35.215 --> 00:41:40.355
not I mean, I'm not gonna say anyone, but, like, there is a lot of pushback on Nasr about

555
00:41:41.780 --> 00:41:46.280
bringing in more it's like, there's a lot of infighting about how you bring in new users,

556
00:41:47.700 --> 00:41:50.359
which is interesting. And I think it goes back to

557
00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:53.400
the point I made earlier with

558
00:41:55.035 --> 00:41:56.095
it's being bootstrapped

559
00:41:56.395 --> 00:41:57.135
by people

560
00:41:58.555 --> 00:42:00.974
that think social media addiction is a problem.

561
00:42:01.915 --> 00:42:02.415
And

562
00:42:03.595 --> 00:42:06.335
they're, like, battling there's, like, internal battles

563
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:08.420
within them within themselves,

564
00:42:08.720 --> 00:42:11.460
not even just, like, among the community, like, within themselves

565
00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:12.660
about

566
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:14.580
the right way of doing things

567
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.020
or, like, like, where the line should be drawn.

568
00:42:19.695 --> 00:42:21.295
I mean, like, we've brought

569
00:42:22.655 --> 00:42:29.075
on Primal, like, specifically, we've tried to focus on bringing in new users and get more exposure and make the

570
00:42:29.535 --> 00:42:30.515
onboarding experience,

571
00:42:31.215 --> 00:42:34.835
you know, less frictionful and easier to use.

572
00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:37.960
And then, like, you bring on, like, a big account or whatever,

573
00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:54.365
and then there's, like, a bunch of people in the comments like, oh, Primal's not a real Nostra app. It's like, oh, that's great. Like, that's the first thing they need to say is, like, just get confused about what is a real Nostra app. And then, yeah, then, I mean, that's just, I think, more of a philosophical question than anything about what is a real Nostra app.

574
00:42:55.385 --> 00:42:56.365
So it's interesting.

575
00:42:58.265 --> 00:43:01.005
I do think it'll probably get better over time

576
00:43:03.970 --> 00:43:07.190
in terms of external exposure, but it's gonna be more of a

577
00:43:08.369 --> 00:43:10.150
hand to hand kind of

578
00:43:10.770 --> 00:43:19.435
I guess, the way networks always expanded in the past before we had, like, major socials, which is like friends telling friends and onboarding them kinda thing.

579
00:43:19.974 --> 00:43:25.595
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, you know, speaking for myself, there's probably well, there's definitely a lot of self sabotage,

580
00:43:25.974 --> 00:43:32.120
whether it's whether it whatever source there it is. But, you know, if you get successful, now all of a sudden you're very responsible.

581
00:43:32.580 --> 00:43:35.560
Right? Like, you become a target for media attacks.

582
00:43:36.020 --> 00:43:43.355
You have to, like, comply with stuff or, you know, do reports or or actually read terms of services for app stores or whatever.

583
00:43:43.815 --> 00:43:46.635
And, that's that stuff is not very fun.

584
00:43:47.415 --> 00:43:51.195
And, you know, like, I've been trying to do a bunch of use usability testing,

585
00:43:51.495 --> 00:43:52.870
but I just keep finding,

586
00:43:53.330 --> 00:43:54.690
excuses to not do it.

587
00:43:55.250 --> 00:44:10.875
I I I gotta I I already know the problems. I gotta fix the problems first, and you end up at it's it's the developer first mindset. Right? Like, developers Yep. Like a program. They like to build stuff, and so they just do. And if you don't have any, like, product people or designers in the room to hold them,

588
00:44:11.815 --> 00:44:12.315
accountable,

589
00:44:12.695 --> 00:44:16.475
then they're just gonna, like, play with stuff forever. And I think, like,

590
00:44:16.775 --> 00:44:18.795
that's still okay. Like,

591
00:44:19.370 --> 00:44:20.670
for a long time, was

592
00:44:21.930 --> 00:44:24.110
it was it was great that there was all the experimentation.

593
00:44:24.650 --> 00:44:34.075
It's still great that there's a lot of experimentation, but I think I am like, I'm seeing a shift towards actual products. And I think it's probably like MKStack makes it easy to just,

594
00:44:34.535 --> 00:44:35.994
like, poop something out.

595
00:44:36.775 --> 00:44:43.050
So there's there's more stuff that's covering use cases that that people are scratching their own itch. So I think that's, like, a sign of maturity. But,

596
00:44:43.690 --> 00:44:49.150
you know, there are more Why don't you say what you mean there? What is your opinion on vibe coding?

597
00:44:49.930 --> 00:44:56.030
I wrote a pooping out products. I wrote a a blog post a while ago called, AI is anti human.

598
00:44:56.730 --> 00:44:57.230
Interesting.

599
00:44:57.765 --> 00:45:00.105
And, like, I I still I use it sometimes,

600
00:45:00.724 --> 00:45:01.224
but,

601
00:45:01.525 --> 00:45:05.704
like, wholesale, like oh, man. There's so many weird things

602
00:45:06.325 --> 00:45:12.025
to say about it. But wholesale, like, throwing things together, it's legacy code generation. Like, I love,

603
00:45:12.819 --> 00:45:18.440
vibe coding for building marketing sites. I did I did that earlier today. I was like, build me a marketing site,

604
00:45:18.740 --> 00:45:21.140
and it just, like, it pooped it out. And,

605
00:45:21.619 --> 00:45:30.015
that's what it was, but I'm gonna publish it because I didn't have to build a marketing site. Right. So, like, that's great. And to the extent that that is enough, that's fine.

606
00:45:30.795 --> 00:45:39.855
And, like, Gleason really raises the ceiling on what Vibe Coding is able to do in the Nostra ecosystem by giving it some tools that are decent.

607
00:45:41.140 --> 00:45:45.320
But, you know, like, I I did some experiments where I I wrote the same app,

608
00:45:45.860 --> 00:45:47.080
twice in one day.

609
00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:58.385
It took me four hours to write it with with the with MK Stack, and it didn't work at all. And then it took me three hours to write it by hand, and it worked

610
00:45:58.845 --> 00:46:01.484
well. This is landlever.coracle.social.

611
00:46:01.484 --> 00:46:04.464
It's a nip 29, like, relay management kinda client.

612
00:46:05.750 --> 00:46:06.250
And,

613
00:46:06.869 --> 00:46:09.930
you know, that's I'm I'm an experienced developer. So,

614
00:46:11.030 --> 00:46:14.410
what what I do think AI is good for is for people who are not,

615
00:46:14.710 --> 00:46:18.970
like, spending all their time working on a single piece of software.

616
00:46:20.025 --> 00:46:26.525
If you've got, like, a Saturday morning and you wanna see something done and you don't know any programming languages,

617
00:46:26.984 --> 00:46:30.765
like, throw something together, vibe it. And if it works for you, that's great.

618
00:46:31.305 --> 00:46:33.165
Don't expect to turn it into a project

619
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:34.980
or a a product.

620
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:42.740
I I know some people are and, like, I'm I'm impressed by what what Derek has done specifically. He's been doing some good stuff and sticking to it.

621
00:46:43.040 --> 00:46:48.675
But putting putting code out there, it it becomes a job. There's, like, responsibility attached to it.

622
00:46:49.075 --> 00:46:51.735
Well, I think that I mean, so the way I look at it,

623
00:46:52.035 --> 00:46:53.655
at least from, like, the Nasr

624
00:46:54.595 --> 00:46:55.875
bix Bitcoin side

625
00:46:56.675 --> 00:46:59.415
and we'll see. I mean, it's still early. I don't pretend like

626
00:46:59.955 --> 00:47:00.615
I can

627
00:47:00.915 --> 00:47:02.295
comprehend all the ramifications

628
00:47:02.755 --> 00:47:04.215
of where we're going next.

629
00:47:05.609 --> 00:47:06.109
But,

630
00:47:06.650 --> 00:47:07.470
one piece,

631
00:47:08.410 --> 00:47:12.029
like, I think it could be very valuable for iterating fast

632
00:47:12.569 --> 00:47:14.190
and experimenting with things.

633
00:47:15.130 --> 00:47:17.230
But then if you find something

634
00:47:17.835 --> 00:47:19.055
that actually has

635
00:47:19.435 --> 00:47:22.575
some fit that actually people are in demand of and want to use,

636
00:47:23.915 --> 00:47:32.415
at that point, like, you have to sit down and get professional with it and make a stable app. And one of the things I think that Nostra specifically is missing a lot

637
00:47:33.099 --> 00:47:33.839
is stability,

638
00:47:34.220 --> 00:47:35.359
is reliability,

639
00:47:35.740 --> 00:47:37.680
is robustness on the app side.

640
00:47:38.780 --> 00:47:42.800
That's what people expect. Like, if if if people come in and

641
00:47:43.420 --> 00:47:47.369
things are breaking and things they'll just walk away. They just leave. And one of the things that's really frustrating is, and

642
00:47:48.465 --> 00:47:48.965
frustrating

643
00:47:49.665 --> 00:47:53.205
is, and we saw this with the early Bitcoin community, is if you onboard

644
00:47:53.585 --> 00:47:54.245
them too early

645
00:47:54.625 --> 00:47:56.165
and then they leave, I think it's

646
00:47:57.105 --> 00:47:58.565
way harder to get them back

647
00:47:58.945 --> 00:48:05.420
than if they've never touched it in the first place. It's, like, almost like people are relatively open to trying that first touch experience.

648
00:48:05.720 --> 00:48:19.645
But when the first touch is bad, that second touch is way harder to get than the first touch, which is a crazy phenomenon. And that part worries me a bit with having unstable apps out there, nonreliable apps, too complicated types of things for new users.

649
00:48:20.425 --> 00:48:23.965
And then the second piece is I think there might be something there about

650
00:48:25.945 --> 00:48:30.765
I would and to the first piece, I think one of the an interesting recent case study is BitChat

651
00:48:31.089 --> 00:48:34.869
by Dorsey. It's like so he vibed that in, like, two days.

652
00:48:36.530 --> 00:48:41.670
He said a weekend. It could have been, like, a billionaire weekend, like, four days. I don't know. But he he said a weekend.

653
00:48:42.530 --> 00:48:45.349
And then he put it out there, and then there was, like, this

654
00:48:46.235 --> 00:48:58.095
there was people loved it. People got very excited about it. And then Cali jumped on board, and now there's, like, a bunch of different contributors to that project that are focused on making it, like, stable and fleshing it out and, like, actual like, a proper project.

655
00:48:58.715 --> 00:49:03.670
So I think that's a perfect example of the first piece, like, iterating quick, seeing what sticks.

656
00:49:04.130 --> 00:49:08.630
And then the second piece, which is a little bit more out there but could be kinda interesting,

657
00:49:09.329 --> 00:49:11.510
is maybe it changes how

658
00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:18.484
like, the crazy tech bro thing that you hear all the time is, like, it's the end of the app. Like, we're only gonna use agents.

659
00:49:18.865 --> 00:49:20.164
Like, you're just your

660
00:49:20.625 --> 00:49:32.164
app stores are just walking zombies. They're never gonna exist anymore. People are gonna go into their agent, and they're gonna tell them what they want at any given time. And if they need an app like interface, the agent will make it for them on the fly.

661
00:49:32.680 --> 00:49:44.700
And I'm not sold on whether or not that's gonna be the case. You know? It's way more likely it'll be the case for something like booking flights. Like, I need to go to Paris, and then I wanna connect through Zurich or whatever, and you just tell it and it just fucking books your flights for you

662
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:47.820
than for, like, full on social experiences or

663
00:49:48.305 --> 00:49:49.765
group chats and stuff like that.

664
00:49:50.625 --> 00:50:00.805
But if it is going to be the case, it open protocols really supercharge it. Like, the fact that you don't need Nasr API permission, that you don't need Bitcoin API permission,

665
00:50:01.869 --> 00:50:04.450
allows you to kind of enter that world

666
00:50:04.910 --> 00:50:07.810
in a way that the closed systems would just never allow.

667
00:50:08.270 --> 00:50:11.970
You you know and getting x API access is

668
00:50:12.270 --> 00:50:14.850
is not only friction full, but expensive,

669
00:50:16.455 --> 00:50:16.955
or

670
00:50:17.415 --> 00:50:22.475
Stripe access or something like that. But you don't need that with Bitcoin and Nasr, so that could be interesting.

671
00:50:23.095 --> 00:50:29.675
Yeah. And I think, like, you know, I talked to the future Paul about this, but, that's one of the exciting things about AI is it makes

672
00:50:30.260 --> 00:50:31.720
development more accessible

673
00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:33.079
to more people.

674
00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:42.760
You know, like, if you go to a small business and be like, what what process is taking you, like, ten hours a week and wasting your time and money? And if you could vibe code something,

675
00:50:43.685 --> 00:50:49.865
to just, like, fix it for that one person and not productize it, that opens up an entirely new category of software.

676
00:50:50.565 --> 00:50:55.945
I mean, that's making professional development cheaper, but, you know, regular people can also go and,

677
00:50:56.310 --> 00:51:07.290
you know, they can book their flight or or they can take an existing piece of software and be like, I really wish this button was over here. And they can just make that happen. And, like, no one else has to use that to be valuable because they spent 12¢ on it.

678
00:51:07.830 --> 00:51:16.835
I think that is fantastic. And, like, I I wanna be clear too that I'm not belittling any of the really smart people who are working on this and and excited about it on.

679
00:51:17.135 --> 00:51:21.315
But I'm, I'm kind of a curmudgeon, so I I just try to, like,

680
00:51:21.695 --> 00:51:30.870
you know, take the hype down as much as possible whenever I can. So I just I just see that as that's kind of, like, my my job, my role that I have self assigned is,

681
00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:34.250
is to well, okay. So, like, you know, in 02/2012,

682
00:51:34.950 --> 00:51:37.290
I worked or, yeah, '13.

683
00:51:37.590 --> 00:51:44.244
I worked at a three d printing company. You know? And everyone was like, three d printing is the future. We're gonna throw away all our CNCs.

684
00:51:46.065 --> 00:51:52.645
Factories are dead. Everyone's gonna produce things at home. Everyone's, like, generating these ultra light organic

685
00:51:52.945 --> 00:51:53.925
lattice structures.

686
00:51:54.440 --> 00:52:00.200
And, yeah, like, some of that exists. My local mechanic shop has two three d printers, and they just use it to,

687
00:52:00.680 --> 00:52:06.300
you know, to to build little, like, manifolds and stuff and and stick pieces of exhaust together. It's fantastic,

688
00:52:06.965 --> 00:52:08.585
but it did not completely

689
00:52:08.965 --> 00:52:09.465
replace

690
00:52:09.845 --> 00:52:12.105
manufacturing. It only revolutionized it.

691
00:52:12.405 --> 00:52:16.025
So, I think AI is the same same thing. It it's only going to revolutionize

692
00:52:16.405 --> 00:52:16.905
development.

693
00:52:17.205 --> 00:52:31.740
It's not going to replace development. And I I don't think we're all gonna be, you know, AI jockeys either. I think it's, it's a lot more nuanced, and no one understands exactly what it's gonna look like. Yeah. I mean, it's still very early. We got a zap from silent dot links, zapped 42,000

694
00:52:31.740 --> 00:52:33.425
sets. Great service.

695
00:52:33.965 --> 00:52:35.505
I use and depend on it.

696
00:52:36.285 --> 00:52:38.705
If we were on stream during the global

697
00:52:39.245 --> 00:52:43.505
Starlink outage yesterday, I would have had to switch to my Silent Dot Link hotspot.

698
00:52:44.045 --> 00:52:45.745
It's my only backup Internet.

699
00:52:47.310 --> 00:52:47.810
I,

700
00:52:50.590 --> 00:52:52.610
I mean, so on the nonster side of that,

701
00:52:53.150 --> 00:52:54.610
I'm kind of interested

702
00:52:55.230 --> 00:52:57.730
it's it's tangentially related to

703
00:53:01.005 --> 00:53:01.505
VibeCoding

704
00:53:02.525 --> 00:53:03.345
in that

705
00:53:03.805 --> 00:53:08.545
there's a couple different visions for Noster, or maybe they're all the same vision, but

706
00:53:09.244 --> 00:53:10.785
I question the order of operations.

707
00:53:12.690 --> 00:53:20.790
Your two main projects, Coriculum, Flotilla, are, like, these bigger projects that are, like, focused on their specific use cases.

708
00:53:21.490 --> 00:53:27.270
Coriculum, like, a more social use case. Flotilla, like, a more group chat, just Discord like experience.

709
00:53:30.685 --> 00:53:39.585
The the dream of Nostr that people have had since the beginning or since very early on has been this idea of, like, micro apps and other stuff and all this,

710
00:53:40.045 --> 00:53:40.650
you know,

711
00:53:41.690 --> 00:53:45.470
other things you can do. Right? Like Airbnb on Oster or whatever.

712
00:53:45.770 --> 00:53:50.410
Maybe that's not micro enough. Like flapping ostrich, like games where you can just sign in and

713
00:53:51.210 --> 00:53:52.990
do you think adoption happens

714
00:53:55.065 --> 00:54:00.365
in the bootstrap phase? Do you think that happens from micro apps, or do you think that happens from,

715
00:54:00.905 --> 00:54:03.865
you know, some of these bigger apps that are, like, more

716
00:54:04.345 --> 00:54:08.925
like, these heavier apps that are more focused on some kind of holistic experience?

717
00:54:09.970 --> 00:54:14.390
Well, I talked to a time traveler the other day, so I I can definitely tell you with certainty.

718
00:54:15.010 --> 00:54:20.150
Now I I have no idea. It's, I I there's a lot of things about Nostra that are, like, huge gambles.

719
00:54:21.170 --> 00:54:24.935
It's like, well, this seems like it should work, but no one's tried it. So

720
00:54:25.235 --> 00:54:27.175
I guess we'll give it a shot and see what happens.

721
00:54:28.275 --> 00:54:31.175
But I I tend to be more on the side of, like,

722
00:54:31.715 --> 00:54:40.750
a single really high quality user experience is gonna be the on ramp for the majority of people. I mean, you already see this with primal. Right? Like, it's not,

723
00:54:42.010 --> 00:54:48.829
I I don't know. Zap Zap Zap Fest Stream is like a that's actually pretty good, but it's also a a long project and it's been maintained and everything.

724
00:54:50.329 --> 00:54:50.829
But

725
00:54:51.290 --> 00:54:56.464
to get people in the door, there has to be, like, a a value proposition that they can understand.

726
00:54:56.845 --> 00:54:58.625
And most of is not

727
00:54:59.165 --> 00:55:06.464
it like, it's it's a, it's a solution looking for a problem. And all of us know what the problem is, but most people aren't really, like,

728
00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:09.619
up on decentralization

729
00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:18.900
and the problems with the Internet enough to be looking for a particular solution. Whenever I tell my friends I I'm thinking about this stuff, they're like, well, I'm sure glad someone is.

730
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:21.220
That's about the the sum total

731
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:22.660
that I get

732
00:55:23.465 --> 00:55:26.125
with, with my regular non techie friends.

733
00:55:27.465 --> 00:55:35.485
And, yeah. So I think, like, I I like in a lot of ways what Will is doing with Nostra DB and and NoteDeck and stuff.

734
00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:39.780
And, I mean, if that can come together in just a super performance,

735
00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:40.980
customizable,

736
00:55:41.520 --> 00:55:46.340
polished, multi platform tool, that will be super cool because it'll be the

737
00:55:46.640 --> 00:55:49.140
the the tweet deck that everyone misses,

738
00:55:50.085 --> 00:55:51.705
plus a whole bunch more.

739
00:55:52.565 --> 00:55:53.785
Like, it hasn't really

740
00:55:54.085 --> 00:55:55.225
materialized yet.

741
00:55:56.165 --> 00:56:02.985
But, yeah, I think, like, branding and marketing and design are all big parts of this process. And then

742
00:56:03.365 --> 00:56:06.980
the the micro apps solidify the network effect. Right?

743
00:56:07.680 --> 00:56:09.620
The network effect is normally,

744
00:56:10.560 --> 00:56:11.540
what is it like?

745
00:56:13.520 --> 00:56:14.020
N,

746
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:19.835
minus one. I can't remember. But it's like the number of relationships between the people in the ecosystem.

747
00:56:20.215 --> 00:56:21.994
But if the ecosystem includes apps,

748
00:56:22.295 --> 00:56:27.755
then you get to multiply that by how many different apps a given person uses. And

749
00:56:28.055 --> 00:56:33.035
that's, like, that's a much deeper moat than even big tech companies can build.

750
00:56:33.940 --> 00:56:38.120
Yeah. Because, I mean, none of them would do that after the fact because they like their walled gardens.

751
00:56:39.220 --> 00:56:41.960
So the fact that we're starting from that point

752
00:56:42.980 --> 00:56:48.680
means that if any single app gets very successful, they're still part of the greater open Nostra ecosystem.

753
00:56:50.244 --> 00:56:52.744
It's not like a decision that is made after success,

754
00:56:53.445 --> 00:56:55.465
which I think is a key point there.

755
00:56:57.205 --> 00:57:00.105
Yeah. I mean, I do think about like, I I I

756
00:57:00.805 --> 00:57:03.625
don't think people are gonna come for censorship resistance

757
00:57:06.110 --> 00:57:07.570
unless censorship gets

758
00:57:08.190 --> 00:57:13.090
way worse again. I mean, it was pretty bad for a while. It's still pretty bad in lots of parts of the world.

759
00:57:14.110 --> 00:57:17.970
But as long as it's like a frog boiling situation, people tend to not.

760
00:57:19.195 --> 00:57:27.135
And what was the phenomenon we saw? It's like a rich person gets deplatformed, and then they create their own social network. Yeah. Yeah. Or they buy one,

761
00:57:28.234 --> 00:57:31.535
which, you know, we've seen you know, we see Trump with True Social.

762
00:57:32.010 --> 00:57:34.670
I mean, I think Kanye bought Parler at one point.

763
00:57:36.090 --> 00:57:37.710
Elon obviously bought x.

764
00:57:38.970 --> 00:57:39.470
So

765
00:57:39.770 --> 00:57:44.030
they either, like, buy one or create one, and then they don't solve the problem. They're just the new god,

766
00:57:45.155 --> 00:57:45.975
instead of

767
00:57:46.435 --> 00:57:54.135
someone else. And I'm even seeing true social for a while was was not paywall blocked, and was not login blocked, but now they're starting to login blocked

768
00:57:54.435 --> 00:57:56.775
because they know everyone needs to read Trump's posts.

769
00:57:57.980 --> 00:58:01.520
So if you force them to log in, then they might actually sign up for the platform.

770
00:58:02.060 --> 00:58:05.119
Trump has the best business models. Mint your own cryptocurrency,

771
00:58:05.500 --> 00:58:07.119
create your own paywall, the

772
00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:08.720
social network. Stakes.

773
00:58:09.335 --> 00:58:10.954
Yeah. And we're gonna run Trump's stakes.

774
00:58:11.734 --> 00:58:12.234
I,

775
00:58:14.214 --> 00:58:14.714
so

776
00:58:15.335 --> 00:58:17.434
I don't think they're gonna come for censorship resistance.

777
00:58:19.654 --> 00:58:22.555
Maybe at some point, they come for verifiability,

778
00:58:23.410 --> 00:58:25.190
but probably not. I think

779
00:58:25.570 --> 00:58:27.110
most people are cool with

780
00:58:29.090 --> 00:58:53.130
Zuckerberg telling them when something's AI generated or fake or whatever. Like, those centralized platforms will just have to have better UX in terms of they they they will have to make that part of their product offering. It's like, oh, this is fake news, and this isn't. And that's not an easy problem to solve, but they will attempt to, and they'll probably do decent about it. I think the way, like, we get, you know, a 100,000,000 people using Nasr, 200,000,000

781
00:58:53.210 --> 00:58:55.710
it's like, it has the app has to be better experience.

782
00:58:56.170 --> 00:58:57.290
Like, it just has to be

783
00:58:58.410 --> 00:59:03.470
and and easier said than done. Like, I don't know what necessarily means a better experience, and that also

784
00:59:03.945 --> 00:59:07.965
was one of the issues when you like, a lot of the builders, like I said, are,

785
00:59:10.585 --> 00:59:14.045
in social media denial or I don't know what we are. But,

786
00:59:16.025 --> 00:59:21.010
like, they wanna use less social media, not more. But it just needs to be a better app. Like,

787
00:59:21.470 --> 00:59:28.450
good content, good videos, everything needs to be really reliable. It just needs to work really well, and then then people get all the other benefits

788
00:59:28.830 --> 00:59:32.130
as a side effect. And a lot of times, they don't even realize until afterwards.

789
00:59:33.565 --> 00:59:35.745
And I don't think a micro app can necessarily

790
00:59:36.685 --> 00:59:37.345
do that.

791
00:59:38.365 --> 00:59:48.145
But maybe maybe they could. You know? And and then maybe the question is, like, what is the definition of a micro app? You know? Maybe, actually, the first big app isn't a social app,

792
00:59:48.869 --> 00:59:50.170
but not a micro app,

793
00:59:50.710 --> 00:59:52.809
you know, like, Polymarket or something,

794
00:59:53.910 --> 00:59:54.890
but on Oster.

795
00:59:55.910 --> 01:00:04.065
I don't know what what the the thing would be, but, you know, I heard overheard, like, a college student the other day talking about how they had gray scaled their phone and,

796
01:00:04.464 --> 01:00:06.645
like, turned off images and all this stuff.

797
01:00:07.265 --> 01:00:11.125
I think there's a lot of appetite for social media that respects users.

798
01:00:11.425 --> 01:00:12.964
Do you gray scale your phone?

799
01:00:13.265 --> 01:00:13.845
I don't.

800
01:00:14.145 --> 01:00:17.925
I'm just I'm just immune. My phone auto gray scales at sunset.

801
01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:19.260
That's a good idea.

802
01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:25.500
It's pretty cool. I have an I have, like, a an alarm set to put my phone down in the evening.

803
01:00:26.680 --> 01:00:32.540
But, yeah, it does, like, suck up your life, and people people are smart. People recognize that, and they want better.

804
01:00:32.985 --> 01:00:33.485
So,

805
01:00:33.945 --> 01:00:35.805
social media that leans into that,

806
01:00:36.825 --> 01:00:39.165
but someone has to own the narrative. You know? Like,

807
01:00:39.705 --> 01:00:45.705
the entire ecosystem of Nostra, I mean, someone could maybe co opt it. Like, you know, nostra.com

808
01:00:45.705 --> 01:00:46.605
is getting better.

809
01:00:47.225 --> 01:00:47.385
But

810
01:00:49.050 --> 01:00:59.870
It was pretty bad for a while. Own the Nostra narrative. You have to have your own brand, and you have to shield that as its own thing because no one like you're saying, no one cares about the protocol.

811
01:01:00.410 --> 01:01:02.330
Protocols are not a selling point. So

812
01:01:03.414 --> 01:01:05.674
I mean, I I I'll say, like,

813
01:01:08.855 --> 01:01:10.795
I have noticed that issue as well.

814
01:01:13.255 --> 01:01:20.010
Because if you shield Nostra to someone, you're just throwing them to the wolves. There's, like the chances that they actually get to an app

815
01:01:20.470 --> 01:01:22.490
when you just say you should try out Nostr

816
01:01:23.109 --> 01:01:24.570
is, like, 5%.

817
01:01:26.790 --> 01:01:27.849
So I personally

818
01:01:29.285 --> 01:01:33.945
have been been I'll just say, like, oh, you should download Primal and check out Primal.

819
01:01:34.805 --> 01:01:38.745
And, yes, do I have a financial interest in Primal as an investor?

820
01:01:39.525 --> 01:01:40.665
Yes. I do.

821
01:01:41.685 --> 01:01:44.345
But I also just think it's right now, like,

822
01:01:44.780 --> 01:01:47.920
the cleanest onboarding experience for a new user. And

823
01:01:48.380 --> 01:01:52.079
if there was one that beats Primal at that, like, I will show that app instead.

824
01:01:52.540 --> 01:01:59.119
But as soon as you do that, like, people are like, oh, he's playing favorites. He's doing this. He's doing that. And it's like it's a whole

825
01:02:00.365 --> 01:02:05.585
it's a whole quagmire, and it's something to do with open protocols. I mean, I see the same thing on the Bitcoin side.

826
01:02:06.045 --> 01:02:12.224
Right? It's like I guess it's a little bit better now because there's so much Bitcoin education out there. If you say you should check out Bitcoin,

827
01:02:13.270 --> 01:02:17.770
they could probably figure out their way. But it's way more helpful to tell someone,

828
01:02:18.070 --> 01:02:19.210
download this app,

829
01:02:19.750 --> 01:02:36.224
use this tool, set it up this way, and just kinda guide them, at least in the beginning. And then, ultimately, then they can go and use it however they want in the future after that. Yeah. I I have a responsible disclosure to make too. It's not it's that I am not paid to promote primal at all.

830
01:02:36.685 --> 01:02:38.845
But is my friend. So,

831
01:02:39.484 --> 01:02:41.885
take that as you will. No. But I think, like,

832
01:02:42.640 --> 01:02:45.460
the friend thing you joke, but the friend thing is actually

833
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:53.460
at least for me, and that's definitely not true for a lot of people. Like, a lot of people, like, you give them, like, $50 and a brownie, and they'll show your product.

834
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:59.835
But for me, the friend issue is a way bigger issue about talking about these kind of things publicly,

835
01:03:00.615 --> 01:03:01.755
because it just sucks

836
01:03:02.535 --> 01:03:03.035
talking

837
01:03:03.575 --> 01:03:04.715
specifically negatively

838
01:03:05.015 --> 01:03:05.995
about friends

839
01:03:06.375 --> 01:03:07.115
on air.

840
01:03:08.215 --> 01:03:17.340
I I don't mind doing it. I I've, I've Fair enough. I'm old plenty of times, and Milian has forgiven me. That's why we're that's why we're able to be friends. There you go. Hi, man.

841
01:03:17.960 --> 01:03:19.260
But, yeah, I think, like,

842
01:03:22.040 --> 01:03:27.400
the problem like, social media itself as a selling point is kind of a bizarre thing because every

843
01:03:27.975 --> 01:03:34.075
and I kinda wonder, like, it are we a bunch of millennials making the making, social media for millennials,

844
01:03:34.615 --> 01:03:35.515
in the millennial

845
01:03:36.135 --> 01:03:36.635
era?

846
01:03:37.735 --> 01:03:38.395
You know,

847
01:03:39.015 --> 01:03:39.675
younger kids,

848
01:03:40.055 --> 01:03:45.349
they they have different platforms, first of all, like, that I've never used. I I've I've, like, used TikTok once,

849
01:03:45.970 --> 01:03:48.470
and got disgusted and threw my phone across the room.

850
01:03:49.569 --> 01:03:50.069
But,

851
01:03:52.369 --> 01:04:01.815
but younger people also, like, have have grown up in this ecosystem, and they're either, like, very highly captured by it and addicted to it, or they've already opted out.

852
01:04:02.355 --> 01:04:02.855
And,

853
01:04:03.315 --> 01:04:05.655
you know, it's like the AI thing. We can't really anticipate

854
01:04:06.115 --> 01:04:07.734
what is coming next.

855
01:04:08.195 --> 01:04:11.974
We just keep, like, building these things based on conventions that we already

856
01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:18.900
have seen. But it takes an insane amount of creativity and, like, understanding of actual people in order to create a product that is compelling,

857
01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:24.820
not only to differentiate from a market that exists, but also to to appeal to a new kind of person.

858
01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:30.005
You know? Like, the the market that is opening up is huge

859
01:04:30.545 --> 01:04:31.045
and,

860
01:04:32.305 --> 01:04:33.365
completely unpredictable.

861
01:04:33.745 --> 01:04:34.245
So,

862
01:04:35.025 --> 01:04:40.725
and I I like again, do you I'm a hypocrite. I do a terrible job of this, but we should just, like, spend a lot of time with people,

863
01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:43.660
understanding what their problems are and,

864
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:48.700
understanding what their what their, like, philosophy on digital media is,

865
01:04:49.160 --> 01:04:50.940
because it is certainly not.

866
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:53.339
I I wish I had Twitter back.

867
01:04:55.240 --> 01:04:55.740
Yeah.

868
01:04:57.455 --> 01:05:00.275
Well, I got a few things here. First of all,

869
01:05:03.935 --> 01:05:05.955
have you seen this base app by,

870
01:05:07.855 --> 01:05:08.915
by, Coinbase?

871
01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:12.820
I've heard Tel. I haven't looked yet. So it's like Web three,

872
01:05:13.200 --> 01:05:14.820
quote, unquote, competitor, Nostr,

873
01:05:15.200 --> 01:05:15.700
like,

874
01:05:16.560 --> 01:05:17.700
decentralized social

875
01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:20.740
And there's one run by Coinbase.

876
01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:22.740
Yeah. It's run by Coinbase.

877
01:05:23.135 --> 01:05:23.615
It's,

878
01:05:24.095 --> 01:05:27.714
got shitcoin trading built in. It's got social games built in, which I think

879
01:05:28.335 --> 01:05:36.115
if Nasr is gonna be successful, it has to be a key piece is more social game type. I think they're viral. People like games. Games are fun.

880
01:05:37.760 --> 01:05:44.420
It's got social games. It's got Shitcoin trading in the eye. I said Shitcoin trading. Shitcoin wallet. It has Zaps, but they use USDC.

881
01:05:45.200 --> 01:05:49.380
But, anyway, you were mentioning earlier, you're like, oh, did we waste all this money on Nasr?

882
01:05:50.165 --> 01:05:54.105
It came out forty five minutes ago or it looks like an hour and ten minutes ago.

883
01:05:56.005 --> 01:05:59.065
BaseApp just sent out its first round of weekly rewards.

884
01:05:59.685 --> 01:06:02.325
They sent out $28,000,000

885
01:06:02.325 --> 01:06:03.305
worth of USDC

886
01:06:04.165 --> 01:06:04.325
to,

887
01:06:05.380 --> 01:06:06.180
2,800

888
01:06:06.180 --> 01:06:08.020
creators. Each got $10,000

889
01:06:08.020 --> 01:06:08.920
worth of USDC.

890
01:06:10.100 --> 01:06:11.800
So that's what we're up against.

891
01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:24.435
Just a lot of money sloshing around. I mean, that's more money that's ever been spent on any kind of Nasr development by far. Just sent out as zaps to just get people in. That's crazy.

892
01:06:25.695 --> 01:06:32.515
Which is fucking insane. On the TikTok thing yeah. Also, never used TikTok. Only time I've seen I've, like, seen TikToks that get cross posted.

893
01:06:34.540 --> 01:06:36.320
But I don't know. Like, are we just

894
01:06:36.700 --> 01:06:43.040
so old now too? Like, is TikTok old news? Like, are there there's probably all these apps that are

895
01:06:43.660 --> 01:06:47.280
becoming viral that we don't even know about that the kids are using these days.

896
01:06:47.735 --> 01:06:51.275
Yeah. I think so. My kids don't have phones, so, they can't See,

897
01:06:51.735 --> 01:06:56.475
this is what I'm talking about, though. Like, my kid, I do no screen time. Like,

898
01:06:56.935 --> 01:06:58.395
my kid's younger than yours,

899
01:06:59.095 --> 01:07:05.340
but they're not he's not gonna get phones. I'm gonna try and, you know, push him away from social media as much as possible.

900
01:07:06.200 --> 01:07:12.060
Like, part of the reason I deleted my Twitter account was because, like, how was I supposed to, like, tell him not to use this shit if I was,

901
01:07:12.600 --> 01:07:14.300
like, a celebrity on x?

902
01:07:14.855 --> 01:07:20.454
And I didn't know if I'd have the self control to do it if, like, I went to, like, 500,000 followers or 600,000

903
01:07:20.454 --> 01:07:24.555
followers or something. So I just I'm a big leader of things and just pulled the fucking plug.

904
01:07:24.855 --> 01:07:26.555
But it's like, how are we trying

905
01:07:27.414 --> 01:07:29.035
to bootstrap this thing

906
01:07:30.030 --> 01:07:34.770
when you won't even let your kids have a phone? Like, how's like, it's just such a weird dichotomy.

907
01:07:35.390 --> 01:07:39.890
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like, I think, social media had a different

908
01:07:40.350 --> 01:07:41.970
different marketing scheme

909
01:07:42.270 --> 01:07:46.195
early on that is completely different from what we have now. Like,

910
01:07:46.495 --> 01:07:57.075
we are such an entertainment economy. The the games thing you mentioned is crazy too. Because, like, you know, you go on Netflix on a Friday night. You're like, I wanna watch a movie, and it's like, hey. Do you wanna, like, watch a playable?

911
01:07:57.450 --> 01:08:00.430
I'm like, I don't know what that is, man. What is a playable?

912
01:08:00.890 --> 01:08:06.589
It's a game. Like, Netflix has a game now. It's a Interesting. It just doesn't even make any sense to me. But,

913
01:08:06.970 --> 01:08:08.670
you know, like, you think about Myspace

914
01:08:09.050 --> 01:08:09.550
or,

915
01:08:10.655 --> 01:08:18.594
or, you know, those old ones, just like forums, really. Forums and bulletin boards and stuff were a really early kind of social

916
01:08:19.215 --> 01:08:19.715
network.

917
01:08:20.255 --> 01:08:20.755
And,

918
01:08:21.215 --> 01:08:23.075
like, the Internet was the original Noester.

919
01:08:23.420 --> 01:08:34.800
You could create your own space and talk about a particular thing or access control it and have authentication and stuff like that. I think that's what Noester is able to deliver in a way that's more user centric.

920
01:08:35.900 --> 01:08:39.595
And people have to have the the appetite to have that. Like,

921
01:08:40.135 --> 01:08:45.035
I definitely would like to just hang out on a forum with my six friends who like Monty Python.

922
01:08:46.135 --> 01:08:46.635
But

923
01:08:47.255 --> 01:08:54.075
and I think, like, a lot of people But isn't that just a group chat? Well, yeah. Exactly. Like, people are going to the cozy web. Right? Yeah.

924
01:08:54.790 --> 01:08:58.010
These, you know, private servers and group chats and stuff like that.

925
01:08:58.389 --> 01:08:58.790
And,

926
01:08:59.510 --> 01:09:01.370
that's because they know the people there,

927
01:09:01.909 --> 01:09:03.690
and they don't have to like,

928
01:09:04.150 --> 01:09:05.370
you know, there's no global.

929
01:09:08.805 --> 01:09:12.025
The the idea that you have to be able to interface with everyone in the whole world,

930
01:09:12.645 --> 01:09:15.465
at at the drop of a hat for any reason is, like,

931
01:09:15.925 --> 01:09:18.585
it it's at best an illusion. You know?

932
01:09:19.364 --> 01:09:23.525
You have to interface with a thousand people in the world at the drop of a hat.

933
01:09:24.405 --> 01:09:30.610
And, And, yeah, like, connections come up, but they come up organically because you're talking about the same thing or in the same location or whatever.

934
01:09:31.949 --> 01:09:35.650
And the the scaling have, like, a friend of friend in comment.

935
01:09:36.190 --> 01:09:39.570
Yeah. Exactly. Like, the the scaling of social media is an illusion.

936
01:09:40.645 --> 01:09:44.505
Social doesn't scale. Dunbar's number is, like, a thing.

937
01:09:45.685 --> 01:09:47.465
And so working within those constraints

938
01:09:48.565 --> 01:09:48.885
seems

939
01:09:50.005 --> 01:09:52.185
well, it seems not only healthy, but valuable.

940
01:09:52.565 --> 01:09:54.344
Right? Like, the value

941
01:09:54.645 --> 01:09:56.180
that is created

942
01:09:56.960 --> 01:09:58.500
on social networks at scale

943
01:09:58.880 --> 01:10:08.420
where there's only fake engagement is all captured by the platforms. And so Right. You know, what's the point of driving engagement or monetizing or whatever,

944
01:10:09.365 --> 01:10:13.305
if all it is is just the extension of the crypto casino like what base has?

945
01:10:14.005 --> 01:10:16.665
I don't know. Yeah. I, I'm I'm

946
01:10:17.445 --> 01:10:25.250
opting out of social media and skeptical of it, but I, like, I think that's that's what I need, and that's what a lot of people say they need. So

947
01:10:25.790 --> 01:10:27.970
why not give people what they need? You know?

948
01:10:28.910 --> 01:10:30.450
I mean, so on that note,

949
01:10:33.630 --> 01:10:37.550
I mean, first of all, like, maybe we should all create base accounts and get $10,000

950
01:10:37.550 --> 01:10:38.805
and then zap it around.

951
01:10:39.925 --> 01:10:41.065
I wonder I

952
01:10:41.765 --> 01:10:46.725
you probably have to do KYC for the USDC. Like, they're not just sending $10,000

953
01:10:46.725 --> 01:10:49.545
in USDC to people without a Coinbase account.

954
01:10:51.365 --> 01:10:52.905
I don't know. Anyway,

955
01:10:54.540 --> 01:10:55.040
I

956
01:10:58.060 --> 01:11:02.080
mean, on that note, two things. First of all god. I'm getting a call.

957
01:11:02.700 --> 01:11:03.200
I,

958
01:11:03.740 --> 01:11:07.920
social games, I think, are really interesting, and I just wanted to

959
01:11:08.655 --> 01:11:10.275
to pinpoint on that.

960
01:11:13.775 --> 01:11:14.515
I think

961
01:11:15.455 --> 01:11:19.795
I think they can scale in a healthier way than, like, a global feed.

962
01:11:21.750 --> 01:11:23.530
Like, you can have a billion people

963
01:11:24.390 --> 01:11:26.490
using the same social game

964
01:11:27.190 --> 01:11:31.530
with the same leaderboard, and it doesn't have a lot of the same negative externalities

965
01:11:33.110 --> 01:11:36.410
that maybe a, like, a Twitter style app does.

966
01:11:38.135 --> 01:11:39.515
And Gnoster could

967
01:11:40.295 --> 01:11:48.075
be very interesting there because you could have multiple games from different people. They could all use the same social graph type of leaderboard situation, and they don't have to all work together.

968
01:11:48.535 --> 01:11:50.555
I think the biggest problem there is

969
01:11:51.510 --> 01:11:55.450
the incentive for gaming in general has been walled gardens historically.

970
01:11:56.870 --> 01:12:02.090
And recently with the the mobile games all suck. They're just fucking horrible. They're, like, super predatory

971
01:12:02.630 --> 01:12:03.130
ad

972
01:12:03.670 --> 01:12:05.910
bullshit. My dad is a sucker for

973
01:12:06.835 --> 01:12:08.775
that's the other thing. Marty thinks, like,

974
01:12:09.155 --> 01:12:11.735
it's like kids these days. Like, my dad's

975
01:12:12.355 --> 01:12:13.175
quite old.

976
01:12:13.955 --> 01:12:24.090
Like, he's addicted to Words with Friends on his iPad, and, like, he'll just buy whatever like, all the slop that comes out of China. Like, he just like, he's just a sucker. He just clicks all the fucking ads.

977
01:12:25.510 --> 01:12:29.370
Like, they a lot of them, like, the older generation have even more unhealthy

978
01:12:29.990 --> 01:12:31.290
situation with technology.

979
01:12:31.670 --> 01:12:40.435
Maybe it's like, you gotta, like, get him away from the iPad. He's, like, completely addicted to it. Yeah. Which is I'm, like, so sanguine about young people. Like,

980
01:12:40.735 --> 01:12:42.895
the old people are are so

981
01:12:43.695 --> 01:12:46.275
they don't have the the immune immune system

982
01:12:46.655 --> 01:12:56.020
for digital technology. Like, young people, they're they're pretty prepared to, like, grapple with it. It's like when the conquistadors came over and got everyone sick. It's like that there's no immune system.

983
01:12:57.920 --> 01:12:59.620
That's actually a really good metaphor.

984
01:13:00.160 --> 01:13:00.480
I,

985
01:13:01.200 --> 01:13:07.855
but then to the group chat thing, I mean, this is something you've been very focused on since the very beginning. I remember one of the first times we met,

986
01:13:08.315 --> 01:13:10.094
you said my goal is

987
01:13:11.514 --> 01:13:13.695
to get my church group off of Facebook,

988
01:13:15.559 --> 01:13:19.900
which is actually something that I've been thinking about a lot recently because my wife and I

989
01:13:20.520 --> 01:13:22.539
haven't had Facebook for over a decade,

990
01:13:23.719 --> 01:13:25.579
but we wanna homeschool our kids,

991
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:28.300
and all the homeschool groups are on Facebook.

992
01:13:28.615 --> 01:13:29.355
Yep. And

993
01:13:31.975 --> 01:13:34.395
I, you know, I do a lot of things for my children

994
01:13:34.775 --> 01:13:40.715
that are were that are worse than joining Facebook. Like, if we have to do that, then we're gonna have to fucking do that, I think.

995
01:13:41.790 --> 01:13:49.810
But, hopefully, we don't. And I think Nasr could be a key aspect here. And, I mean so Flotilla specifically, I think, birthed out of this concept.

996
01:13:50.270 --> 01:13:51.650
How do you think about that?

997
01:13:52.430 --> 01:13:56.350
Yeah. I mean yeah. My my goal has always been to help my church community out.

998
01:13:57.015 --> 01:13:57.755
I completely

999
01:13:58.295 --> 01:14:02.395
did not understand the problem, and I keep learning new things, which is why I haven't actually,

1000
01:14:02.935 --> 01:14:03.995
onboarded anyone.

1001
01:14:04.775 --> 01:14:10.235
You know, I started with, like, replacing Twitter, but turns out that's not actually that good for community.

1002
01:14:11.660 --> 01:14:15.840
So the the chat app kinda like Slack sort of thing, I did that because,

1003
01:14:16.620 --> 01:14:23.265
there there's a precedent for it. Like, my community has a Slack channel that they would like to use. And what I'm learning now is, like,

1004
01:14:23.825 --> 01:14:27.765
you know, what what is what are people's need for

1005
01:14:28.625 --> 01:14:30.325
for privacy and security?

1006
01:14:31.265 --> 01:14:36.085
Right. And then also what is their perceived need for it? Like, if you can say something is encrypted,

1007
01:14:36.550 --> 01:14:38.330
people are all over it.

1008
01:14:39.910 --> 01:14:50.570
But if you're just saying but if you say self hosted, like, people, a, don't know what that means, and, b, don't really wanna bother with it. Yeah. And so, like, Flotilla leaned into

1009
01:14:51.030 --> 01:14:51.850
the relays

1010
01:14:52.335 --> 01:14:59.155
as groups kinda thing. And I think it's a still really, like, promising architecture for a lot of different kinds of groups,

1011
01:14:59.935 --> 01:15:03.315
if you have the right, like, trust and security trade offs,

1012
01:15:03.855 --> 01:15:08.650
especially for ones that are, like, read only or or, like, public public read or something like that.

1013
01:15:09.670 --> 01:15:10.410
But So

1014
01:15:10.950 --> 01:15:15.210
that's that's like a uncle Jim on steroids. Right? It's like one church member is running

1015
01:15:16.150 --> 01:15:19.770
a relay that only and does it authenticate? Like, it's only

1016
01:15:20.150 --> 01:15:27.395
a white listed group of users can access that relay? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So you got one technical guy or, you know, even a service,

1017
01:15:28.175 --> 01:15:33.715
that could be okay as well. Like, vault it could be, like, voltage or whatever. It's like a couple clicks, host on AWS.

1018
01:15:35.380 --> 01:15:42.760
Yeah. And at least your data is not getting sucked in by a giant machine that has standardized it and knows how to deal with it. So,

1019
01:15:43.380 --> 01:15:45.720
I I think that's, like, that's promising, but

1020
01:15:46.100 --> 01:15:51.655
I am glad that Jeff took the bullet for the rest of us and started working on white noise because,

1021
01:15:53.475 --> 01:15:53.975
that

1022
01:15:54.435 --> 01:15:54.935
that

1023
01:15:55.395 --> 01:15:58.615
like, adopting MLS and having a really robust,

1024
01:15:58.995 --> 01:16:00.215
scalable, encrypted

1025
01:16:00.835 --> 01:16:01.815
group solution

1026
01:16:02.560 --> 01:16:10.180
is not something that can happen overnight. Like, MLS has been going since, like, what, 2017 or something like that. Yeah. So it's a it's a pretty old project,

1027
01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:12.580
and adapting it to is not trivial.

1028
01:16:13.200 --> 01:16:13.700
And,

1029
01:16:14.240 --> 01:16:16.260
you know, he's he's just doing it. Like,

1030
01:16:17.135 --> 01:16:26.114
I I'm really glad that he did that. He invited me to work on it, like, a year ago. And I was like, no. No. I have a different different approach I wanna try. And so we went our separate ways, but,

1031
01:16:26.735 --> 01:16:31.075
I think MLS is is really promising for certain group types. But,

1032
01:16:31.390 --> 01:16:41.810
you know, trust trust in a digital setting is, like, it's so fraught because anyone can exfiltrate data, especially if it's signed, but even if it's not. And,

1033
01:16:42.510 --> 01:16:45.650
you know, there's all these, like, affordances that are not natural

1034
01:16:46.075 --> 01:16:50.975
to human experience. So, like, the other day, I couldn't log in to Strava. I was gonna go for a run.

1035
01:16:51.355 --> 01:16:53.055
At the same time, I lost my earbuds.

1036
01:16:53.595 --> 01:16:57.855
And I value my earbuds way more than I value logging into Strava.

1037
01:16:58.235 --> 01:17:06.199
But the the Strava problem was way more frustrating because I had no recourse. There was nothing I could do about it. It was just like,

1038
01:17:06.500 --> 01:17:09.880
it doesn't work, and there's no good alternative.

1039
01:17:10.260 --> 01:17:15.880
Whereas Wait. You lost the device? Was is that the phone tracking you, or is it, like, a wrist

1040
01:17:16.435 --> 01:17:19.175
device or something? Or It's a it's an app on my phone.

1041
01:17:19.795 --> 01:17:22.054
You know the Strava leak. Right?

1042
01:17:22.594 --> 01:17:25.094
Yeah. Yeah. It's And they, like, found all the

1043
01:17:25.395 --> 01:17:30.215
all the all the secret military bases or whatever because, like, they're just running circles

1044
01:17:30.829 --> 01:17:38.530
around the Yeah. It's Fitbit. The running data was public. And I guess Fitbit, started posting people's sexual activity to Facebook.

1045
01:17:40.030 --> 01:17:42.369
I mean, it's a good case study on, like, what

1046
01:17:43.085 --> 01:17:44.465
not to do on Oster.

1047
01:17:44.844 --> 01:17:54.065
Yeah. But I lost I lost my earbuds at the same time, and that was not frustrating at all because I was like, I can just buy new earbuds or or, like, you'll find them. Like, I know they're physically in my house somewhere,

1048
01:17:54.525 --> 01:17:57.350
so they'll they'll appear. Like, physical affordances

1049
01:17:57.810 --> 01:18:00.390
are so much more hospitable to

1050
01:18:00.850 --> 01:18:02.710
humans than digital ones.

1051
01:18:03.090 --> 01:18:06.710
Interesting. You know, you see this with, like, Hexa inviting the journalist,

1052
01:18:07.410 --> 01:18:09.270
to his, bomb the Houthis,

1053
01:18:09.970 --> 01:18:10.790
chat group.

1054
01:18:11.490 --> 01:18:11.990
Right.

1055
01:18:12.445 --> 01:18:17.185
It's not just old people. Like, no one is really well adapted to digital media.

1056
01:18:18.045 --> 01:18:44.045
There's always gonna be some amount of Wait. What's the takeaway from him actually inviting the wrong person to his group chat? Oh, he, like, he didn't understand. Like, he didn't go to the guy's house and knock on the door and be like, like, hey. Do you wanna come to my, like Well, he, like, invited the wrong Steve. Like, it was kind of a UX failure. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Like, UX is always gonna be there, and even a perfect UX is gonna be misunderstood and misused a lot of the time. And, like, yeah, it's true in the physical world. You do the wrong thing sometimes. But

1057
01:18:44.665 --> 01:18:55.040
we have an intuition for the for the physical world that, you know If you invite the wrong person into a room to have a meeting, like, you see the wrong person. Right. You're just, like, you're not supposed to be here. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

1058
01:18:55.500 --> 01:18:59.200
And, you know, it solves the impersonation because you have a really high,

1059
01:18:59.900 --> 01:19:13.645
high granularity sort of signals for who a given person is. It's not like, oh, wrong Steve. You know? So and and you can reconcile that in two ways. Right? You can lean more into the physical world that has all these things already,

1060
01:19:14.185 --> 01:19:16.685
or you can try to virtualize everything

1061
01:19:17.145 --> 01:19:19.885
and put your brain in a in a in a context

1062
01:19:20.190 --> 01:19:21.570
where the simulation

1063
01:19:21.950 --> 01:19:24.370
works well enough that you can intuit it.

1064
01:19:24.910 --> 01:19:27.410
But that's, like, that's way out and also dystopian.

1065
01:19:30.350 --> 01:19:31.170
I see

1066
01:19:32.655 --> 01:19:36.514
see Jevi in YouTube saying Bluetooth earbuds are cooking your brain.

1067
01:19:37.215 --> 01:19:37.715
Yeah.

1068
01:19:38.255 --> 01:19:41.795
It's something I wrestle with. I mean, I literally have one in my ear right now.

1069
01:19:43.375 --> 01:19:44.014
I think,

1070
01:19:44.940 --> 01:19:47.920
one is probably better than two, but I'm not a doctor.

1071
01:19:48.460 --> 01:19:50.800
I'll only get kids around one side of my head.

1072
01:19:51.180 --> 01:19:56.240
I I try not to use them that often. I will say that I tried wired buds.

1073
01:19:57.580 --> 01:19:58.080
Toddlers

1074
01:19:58.460 --> 01:20:00.080
and wired buds is

1075
01:20:01.145 --> 01:20:07.005
pretty dangerous from your ear for physical perspective. Like, they just rip those things. They just grab that cord.

1076
01:20:07.865 --> 01:20:11.645
So the the convenience, I think, is pretty high. But, hopefully, it's not

1077
01:20:12.425 --> 01:20:13.485
destroying me.

1078
01:20:14.170 --> 01:20:18.990
I I say, Jebby, honestly, one is better than two is probably legit. I've never worn I never wear two.

1079
01:20:19.530 --> 01:20:21.150
So I got that going for me.

1080
01:20:23.450 --> 01:20:31.795
I, I mean, I wanna I wanna hone in on the signal metaphor because signal is a product that has completely changed my life. It's something that I rely on heavily.

1081
01:20:34.655 --> 01:20:37.315
It kinda goes back to our earlier conversation where,

1082
01:20:38.655 --> 01:20:47.000
the threat model doesn't involve a hostile US government. Like, literally, we would just not have access to signal tomorrow if the US government decided we couldn't have access to it.

1083
01:20:49.300 --> 01:20:50.200
It is centralized,

1084
01:20:50.980 --> 01:20:58.475
but makes a very interesting trade off balance between convenience and security. It's pretty pretty damn secure and pretty damn private.

1085
01:21:00.535 --> 01:21:01.275
But, ultimately,

1086
01:21:02.054 --> 01:21:02.715
you know,

1087
01:21:03.495 --> 01:21:05.035
a lot of the privacy assumptions

1088
01:21:06.375 --> 01:21:11.969
revolve around who you're communicating with, who's in your group chat, what their security is like. Phones are

1089
01:21:12.590 --> 01:21:16.510
relatively easy to compromise by sophisticated actors. They can compromise them that way.

1090
01:21:18.190 --> 01:21:23.329
And the UX, though, but the UX is they've they've really nailed down the UX, and they made it a lot better.

1091
01:21:23.710 --> 01:21:25.570
I always give the story, like,

1092
01:21:27.375 --> 01:21:31.235
my 90 year old grandmother, I'm not gonna dox her exact age,

1093
01:21:31.535 --> 01:21:34.995
she uses signal, and it's because it's the only way she gets baby pictures.

1094
01:21:35.615 --> 01:21:37.875
I've got I've onboarded practically my entire

1095
01:21:38.700 --> 01:21:54.315
extended family to signal because it's the only way they get baby pictures, and we have group chats. We have one group chat with my wife's family and one group chat with my family. There's, like, a little bit of overlap in between, and, like, that's basically, like, our baby social media. It's like they just get photos dropped in there.

1096
01:21:56.155 --> 01:21:59.375
With all that said, even all the great strides they've made

1097
01:22:02.475 --> 01:22:06.094
first of all, you have two issues. You have on one side, you have the hard course

1098
01:22:07.530 --> 01:22:08.429
that are like,

1099
01:22:08.810 --> 01:22:13.469
this is not secure enough. This is all the issues I just said, not centralized blah blah,

1100
01:22:14.010 --> 01:22:21.705
trade off model. They don't like it. It uses phone numbers. Oh, but they the other person can't see the phone number. It doesn't matter. It uses phone numbers. Like, I won't use it.

1101
01:22:23.785 --> 01:22:34.685
And then the second piece is just the friction of installing another app, convincing someone to finally install the other app. And I use baby photos as an example because it's a very high threshold.

1102
01:22:35.739 --> 01:22:42.639
It's it's it's something that people really desire. Family really desires baby photos, so you can get them on the app that way.

1103
01:22:43.500 --> 01:22:44.800
Work related stuff.

1104
01:22:45.340 --> 01:22:50.000
It's like, if, like, you want $10.31 to invest in your company,

1105
01:22:50.495 --> 01:22:58.675
like, you're probably communicating with me through signal. Like, you can try through email or whatever, but there's a soft incentive there that, like, I'm way more likely to respond.

1106
01:22:59.695 --> 01:23:00.195
So,

1107
01:23:00.655 --> 01:23:03.375
like, OpenSets and ten thirty one, like, 99%

1108
01:23:03.375 --> 01:23:12.970
of my communications, personal work, everything are through signal, and, also, I'm just a big deleter. So, like, I just deleted my Twitter and Telegram. You can no longer DM me there.

1109
01:23:13.510 --> 01:23:16.890
So if you wanna communicate with me, like, that's what you gotta do.

1110
01:23:18.015 --> 01:23:22.035
I also don't have a phone number. So, like, you can't even, like, just do a regular text.

1111
01:23:22.655 --> 01:23:25.395
So maybe I'm an extreme. But, anyway, all of that said,

1112
01:23:25.935 --> 01:23:27.715
it's only got a 100,000,000 users.

1113
01:23:29.215 --> 01:23:32.195
Right? WhatsApp is, like, three to 5,000,000,000

1114
01:23:32.570 --> 01:23:34.190
or something like that on WhatsApp.

1115
01:23:34.730 --> 01:23:36.830
Signal only has a 100,000,000 users,

1116
01:23:37.370 --> 01:23:40.110
but where I'm going with that is it still has

1117
01:23:40.810 --> 01:23:42.030
transformed the way

1118
01:23:42.810 --> 01:23:44.990
I am able to operate my life.

1119
01:23:45.415 --> 01:23:48.635
Is still a huge net positive for me and plenty of other people.

1120
01:23:49.014 --> 01:23:50.475
And maybe this focus

1121
01:23:51.975 --> 01:23:55.915
on a billion users on Nostr is misguided. Maybe we'll get there eventually.

1122
01:23:58.890 --> 01:24:05.550
But something can be really transformative even if it's, quote, unquote, only a 100,000,000 people or only 50,000,000 people. Right?

1123
01:24:05.850 --> 01:24:06.350
Yeah.

1124
01:24:06.890 --> 01:24:10.030
Yeah. I totally agree with that. I mean, like, you know, talking

1125
01:24:10.810 --> 01:24:13.230
from the perspective of, like, the Christian ethic,

1126
01:24:14.505 --> 01:24:23.005
the I the the guy who saved us saved everyone. Right? He died on the cross and saved everyone, but we're called to to be servants. And a servant,

1127
01:24:23.625 --> 01:24:27.245
like, does a bunch of menial labor for someone who never thanks him.

1128
01:24:28.025 --> 01:24:28.525
And

1129
01:24:29.210 --> 01:24:32.270
that's meaningful on its own. And so, like,

1130
01:24:32.730 --> 01:24:36.510
once you lose sight of the people that you're actually serving

1131
01:24:36.890 --> 01:24:38.350
when you're doing something,

1132
01:24:38.730 --> 01:24:44.065
whether you're building tech or doing something financial or or

1133
01:24:44.605 --> 01:24:51.265
whatever, then you just cut yourself off from the meaning of doing it. And, like, yeah. So scale doesn't matter because

1134
01:24:52.365 --> 01:25:02.300
whether you are able to affect the lives of x billion people, those people are still people, and they have certain problems. And there are ways for those problems to get solved.

1135
01:25:02.760 --> 01:25:05.740
So, like, success is not eating the entire world.

1136
01:25:07.560 --> 01:25:10.220
Anyway, like so, like, the problem with signal

1137
01:25:11.160 --> 01:25:11.660
is,

1138
01:25:12.745 --> 01:25:41.110
like, it doesn't scale, and I was just talking against scale, but I mean a different kind of scale. Yeah. Like, it once you have, like, eight people in a chat group Oh, it's horrible. It's horrible. Yeah. And I I started a chat group a signal group for my church because I I was like, forget it. I'm just gonna solve this problem, put everyone on signal. And it was great until all the guys in the church, all 30 of the guys in the church were in the chat group, and now no one uses it because you don't wanna, like, broadcast every thought that you have to the entire,

1139
01:25:41.570 --> 01:25:45.225
group. And so, like, partitioning digital space is super important

1140
01:25:45.605 --> 01:25:51.225
to be like, let's sidebar over here and, like, figure out the logistics for this thing that the two of us only care about,

1141
01:25:51.685 --> 01:25:59.040
without losing the context of the greater group or, like, the access controls that are associated with it. So I I think that's the place

1142
01:25:59.340 --> 01:26:00.480
really to go

1143
01:26:00.780 --> 01:26:09.680
is like, Signal could do that. They could they could link chat groups, but it would break the metaphor so thoroughly that I think it would not be well received.

1144
01:26:10.060 --> 01:26:12.480
Do you think do you are you a Telegram user?

1145
01:26:13.235 --> 01:26:14.775
I I I use Telegram,

1146
01:26:15.235 --> 01:26:16.295
for one conversation.

1147
01:26:17.315 --> 01:26:20.855
So I have a bunch of issues with Telegram, like, in terms of, like,

1148
01:26:22.115 --> 01:26:26.055
technical decisions and I mean, I think it's basically spyware.

1149
01:26:26.540 --> 01:26:29.760
But UX wise and particularly around big groups,

1150
01:26:32.380 --> 01:26:36.719
I think they do a pretty good job. Like, I'm curious on your opinion. Like, the whole like,

1151
01:26:37.180 --> 01:26:41.920
they have, like, rooms and then there's sub chat rooms and there's all the different

1152
01:26:42.595 --> 01:26:49.255
UX tricks they do to handle big groups. But, like, big groups is a hard thing to solve, and I don't know what like, yeah. Big groups is probably, like,

1153
01:26:49.875 --> 01:26:50.935
over 20 people.

1154
01:26:52.035 --> 01:26:54.295
Yeah. And I think WhatsApp does a good job too.

1155
01:26:54.835 --> 01:26:59.120
I'm too They do a similar thing. Right? Like, they have, like, sub groups and

1156
01:26:59.580 --> 01:27:14.855
stuff? Yeah. I think so. I need to, like, actually study those platforms because I think you're right. I think they do a good job with those things. But I'm too old, and I don't know how to use Telegram. I can never find any of the any of the buttons. But, yeah, I I think, They've added a lot of shit to it over the years.

1157
01:27:15.555 --> 01:27:18.375
Yeah. But, yeah, I think that's that is a better approach,

1158
01:27:18.915 --> 01:27:20.615
what they what those guys are doing.

1159
01:27:21.395 --> 01:27:22.295
Yeah. I mean,

1160
01:27:25.320 --> 01:27:27.340
I my relationship with WhatsApp

1161
01:27:28.040 --> 01:27:30.780
is that I install so Telegram, I deleted.

1162
01:27:33.480 --> 01:27:40.139
I recently installed it again and created a burner account because I was teaching, like, a 200 person virtual class,

1163
01:27:41.605 --> 01:27:45.145
for the plan b business school, and the q and a was in there.

1164
01:27:47.205 --> 01:27:48.425
And when I did that

1165
01:27:49.765 --> 01:27:50.505
first of

1166
01:27:51.365 --> 01:27:58.180
all, used my first burner phone number I used to try and sign up had already been signed up for Telegram, so I just, like, wasted $5.

1167
01:27:58.480 --> 01:28:02.420
And I created another one, got signed up, immediately banned from the platform.

1168
01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:03.780
Like, I have, like,

1169
01:28:04.640 --> 01:28:07.380
a bunch of flags or whatever, and then I had, like, emails

1170
01:28:07.705 --> 01:28:17.405
email support. Like, they finally, like, unlocked my account. I used it for a day and deleted. But they had the interesting group structure there in their in the plan b business school. They had, like, all these different subgroups.

1171
01:28:18.344 --> 01:28:21.965
But then my relationship with WhatsApp is, like, I usually just install it

1172
01:28:22.500 --> 01:28:39.005
when I'm, like, traveling abroad in places that rely on, like, a 100% WhatsApp economy. It's insane. Yeah. And that's also super malicious because if you don't give them access to your contact list, which I always refuse access to, it's almost an unusable app. So I'm definitely guilty

1173
01:28:40.265 --> 01:28:44.845
and on that front too. And I think that goes to, like, the earlier thread that has just been,

1174
01:28:46.745 --> 01:28:52.205
you know, incessant through this entire conversation, which is, like, we're trying to build alternatives, but we don't really know

1175
01:28:52.570 --> 01:28:54.830
how the things that we're building against work

1176
01:28:55.450 --> 01:28:57.150
because we're not using them.

1177
01:28:57.610 --> 01:29:02.990
And I don't know how we cross that chasm. Maybe it's maybe it's new people are coming in that

1178
01:29:03.610 --> 01:29:07.630
don't have that principal stance or don't have that out of touchness

1179
01:29:08.475 --> 01:29:10.175
that actually make that change.

1180
01:29:10.795 --> 01:29:12.735
But, anyway, my WhatsApp story was,

1181
01:29:15.675 --> 01:29:18.335
I actually did reinstall it for

1182
01:29:18.795 --> 01:29:19.935
a month or two,

1183
01:29:21.130 --> 01:29:23.310
about five months ago, six months ago because,

1184
01:29:24.490 --> 01:29:25.390
one of my

1185
01:29:26.250 --> 01:29:36.195
friend's wives got cancer, and the support group was on WhatsApp. And if you wanted to, like, help support you, how to join WhatsApp. And they had this whole interesting group structure with, like, admins

1186
01:29:36.974 --> 01:29:38.994
and, quote, unquote, like, privacy

1187
01:29:39.934 --> 01:29:41.474
settings where you could, like,

1188
01:29:41.775 --> 01:29:50.719
who can view phone numbers, who couldn't view phone numbers, who could access which group, who could access the funding group, and this and that. And it was, like, very, very, very in-depth.

1189
01:29:53.820 --> 01:29:55.260
But then I just, you know, I

1190
01:29:55.900 --> 01:30:00.239
like, we paid for a babysitter for a little bit, and I just got out of the WhatsApp group.

1191
01:30:00.815 --> 01:30:07.555
But, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that. I just it's it's they're trying to solve a lot of these problems, and they're trying to solve them in a super centralized way.

1192
01:30:08.175 --> 01:30:11.235
And for a lot of people, that is fine, I think.

1193
01:30:11.615 --> 01:30:12.415
So maybe

1194
01:30:13.215 --> 01:30:14.940
and I'm just thinking out loud, like,

1195
01:30:15.739 --> 01:30:24.480
maybe the end result of, like, the first, quote, unquote, killer app for Nostril or the first thing that has, like, real product market fit is maybe it's more centralized

1196
01:30:25.820 --> 01:30:26.320
than

1197
01:30:27.225 --> 01:30:27.965
the hardcores

1198
01:30:28.585 --> 01:30:29.485
in the community

1199
01:30:29.945 --> 01:30:31.085
would like to see.

1200
01:30:31.545 --> 01:30:36.764
But if at the end of the day, you have an NSAC and there's actual Noster events being published,

1201
01:30:38.344 --> 01:30:41.485
like, that's probably fine. It's still better than the alternative.

1202
01:30:42.280 --> 01:31:00.745
Yeah. It gives you a lot of of advantages. I do think that encrypted groups can do almost anything that server supported ones can do. Like, MLS has has all these extensions for, you know, different logic for groups. And, like, Nostra gives you, different, content types. Right? You can put anything into a Nostra group.

1203
01:31:01.845 --> 01:31:07.225
And and then MLS gives you access controls. And so you might be able to detach from the relays

1204
01:31:07.760 --> 01:31:13.300
and just have, like, very few compromises apart from, you know, the push notifications thing we were talking about earlier.

1205
01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:15.680
But, you know, I I also think, like,

1206
01:31:16.160 --> 01:31:18.980
all these social media options that we talk about

1207
01:31:19.360 --> 01:31:23.380
are sort of a shelling point for what we think social media is.

1208
01:31:23.875 --> 01:31:26.055
One that, you know, a lot of people like,

1209
01:31:26.515 --> 01:31:29.735
that is very different is Skoool, s k o o l,

1210
01:31:30.115 --> 01:31:32.695
and it's like a learning platform.

1211
01:31:33.155 --> 01:31:35.975
And they have tons of features that are really

1212
01:31:36.460 --> 01:31:39.440
strongly oriented at, like, gamifying and monetizing,

1213
01:31:40.220 --> 01:31:42.160
communities that are oriented at,

1214
01:31:43.580 --> 01:31:44.480
like, courses,

1215
01:31:44.860 --> 01:31:46.400
course material kind of stuff.

1216
01:31:46.780 --> 01:31:50.080
And it it's just it it's instructive to see,

1217
01:31:50.705 --> 01:31:54.405
you know, that kind of thing is never gonna have a billion users,

1218
01:31:54.785 --> 01:32:00.725
but they can have a 100,000,000 users and really solve their problem well. So there's a lot of room for

1219
01:32:01.345 --> 01:32:05.170
for solutions. And looks like they have payments built in too. Yeah. Yeah.

1220
01:32:05.790 --> 01:32:09.489
And and payments is part of the gamification, I think, too. So,

1221
01:32:10.030 --> 01:32:12.130
like, what do you mean by that? Platform.

1222
01:32:13.150 --> 01:32:19.810
It's like, you know, you have to pay to join, but then you get paid out for promoting stuff and and, it's like a pyramid scheme.

1223
01:32:20.205 --> 01:32:22.705
Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit like a pyramid pyramid scheme.

1224
01:32:23.324 --> 01:32:25.025
Well, they work. They're viral.

1225
01:32:26.445 --> 01:32:28.304
But, yeah, like, if someone wants to do

1226
01:32:28.605 --> 01:32:30.545
a a, education focused,

1227
01:32:31.405 --> 01:32:41.150
group chat client, it would look totally different from, like, a family or or church sort of thing. So there's a lot of room for for different things. But,

1228
01:32:42.010 --> 01:32:42.670
I mean,

1229
01:32:43.130 --> 01:32:43.630
that

1230
01:32:44.010 --> 01:32:45.790
that WhatsApp use case of,

1231
01:32:46.945 --> 01:32:49.765
of being the thing that can handle any use case,

1232
01:32:50.225 --> 01:32:51.364
it's obviously attractive

1233
01:32:51.824 --> 01:32:54.085
and would be awesome if we could

1234
01:32:54.465 --> 01:32:58.324
achieve something like that. Well, let's pull it back. Like, how do you get

1235
01:32:59.110 --> 01:33:02.170
how do we get your church group to not use Facebook?

1236
01:33:03.990 --> 01:33:04.870
Well, they they,

1237
01:33:05.350 --> 01:33:07.530
we don't really use Facebook. Everyone hates Facebook.

1238
01:33:08.150 --> 01:33:10.490
Okay. So what do you use? You use a Slack channel?

1239
01:33:11.145 --> 01:33:18.445
Some some of them use a Slack channel, and then we have a signal group. And my pastor sends an email once a week. It's so disjunctive.

1240
01:33:18.745 --> 01:33:23.405
Yeah. Yeah. Other people send him an email, and then he sends the email to everyone else.

1241
01:33:23.940 --> 01:33:24.900
It's, yeah, it's,

1242
01:33:26.260 --> 01:33:27.160
it very centralized,

1243
01:33:27.860 --> 01:33:28.920
but it works fine.

1244
01:33:30.500 --> 01:33:31.239
And so

1245
01:33:32.020 --> 01:33:33.800
yeah. Like, I I think

1246
01:33:34.100 --> 01:33:38.115
I think the value of a social media platform would be to create spaces where there's

1247
01:33:38.675 --> 01:33:41.575
opportunity for for informal conversation,

1248
01:33:42.195 --> 01:33:45.815
where it's like, I wanna tell everyone something, but I don't want it to be an announcement.

1249
01:33:47.315 --> 01:33:49.895
I just wanna be like, hey. We're having a barbecue

1250
01:33:50.275 --> 01:33:54.490
this weekend. Not, hey. 200 people. Do you wanna come to my house?

1251
01:33:55.110 --> 01:33:57.450
Yeah. These are, like, really different media.

1252
01:33:58.870 --> 01:33:59.370
And

1253
01:33:59.910 --> 01:34:05.690
so yeah. Like, the ephemerality of conversation is important, partitioning of spaces and and members,

1254
01:34:06.995 --> 01:34:09.255
and, like, having different groups or subgroups

1255
01:34:09.635 --> 01:34:18.295
based on access. So, like, you know, the deacons should be able to talk about stuff without sharing it with everyone else. And, like, you don't need that in the same

1256
01:34:18.595 --> 01:34:22.560
platform. You could just use the signal group for that, and they probably have something like that.

1257
01:34:22.960 --> 01:34:25.140
So, like, disjunctive is okay,

1258
01:34:25.920 --> 01:34:27.380
because that's how life is.

1259
01:34:27.920 --> 01:34:28.420
Yeah.

1260
01:34:29.680 --> 01:34:31.940
We have these different media to support

1261
01:34:32.320 --> 01:34:33.460
different relationships,

1262
01:34:34.400 --> 01:34:37.860
and maybe the media don't serve those relationships well in every case.

1263
01:34:38.995 --> 01:34:41.335
But a diverse ecosystem is like

1264
01:34:42.355 --> 01:34:48.615
it I I you know, engineers always wanna, like, distill everything down to the single perfect solution.

1265
01:34:50.035 --> 01:34:54.270
But and this is something that I think Nostra recognizes in its design,

1266
01:34:54.810 --> 01:34:56.110
and it's great. Like,

1267
01:34:56.650 --> 01:35:00.909
the repo says, don't do the same thing in multiple ways. Right? But

1268
01:35:01.449 --> 01:35:05.710
do a whole bunch of different things. And it's okay if there are multiple ways of doing something,

1269
01:35:07.554 --> 01:35:11.094
because it it breaks down the network effect, but maybe those cater to different use cases.

1270
01:35:11.474 --> 01:35:13.094
And so having a multiplicity

1271
01:35:13.635 --> 01:35:14.695
of ways to communicate

1272
01:35:15.074 --> 01:35:16.775
is, like, it's really not

1273
01:35:17.235 --> 01:35:19.574
that bad. It's it's it's more human.

1274
01:35:20.710 --> 01:35:23.530
Collapsing everything down to a single thing is a great way to,

1275
01:35:23.909 --> 01:35:24.650
to objectify

1276
01:35:25.270 --> 01:35:26.170
and harvest,

1277
01:35:27.030 --> 01:35:30.889
data. You know? Well, let's, like, drill into this for a second. Right? Because

1278
01:35:32.835 --> 01:35:39.095
so at the very basic level of Nasr, we have, like, different types of posts, different types of events,

1279
01:35:41.715 --> 01:35:47.095
where, like, kind one is the most used. Right? It's got the Lindy. It's the short text note

1280
01:35:47.830 --> 01:35:50.410
type of Twitter style kind of post.

1281
01:35:52.070 --> 01:35:56.010
And then, I mean, there's so many kinds I can't keep track of. But,

1282
01:35:58.230 --> 01:36:00.969
from a developer sense, it's ideal if

1283
01:36:01.365 --> 01:36:04.745
photos are something different than videos or different from,

1284
01:36:05.765 --> 01:36:10.345
calendar events. And why is that? It's because if you're building your app, you wanna be able to, like, easily

1285
01:36:10.965 --> 01:36:11.465
programmatically

1286
01:36:12.485 --> 01:36:24.480
determine what type of thing is what type of thing and show the user appropriately how that, you know when they wanna see those things, if they wanna see TikTok style videos, like, they you should be able to easily do that in an app.

1287
01:36:25.980 --> 01:36:28.320
But at this point of Nostra adoption,

1288
01:36:28.940 --> 01:36:32.240
it really breaks the very limited network effect we have.

1289
01:36:33.264 --> 01:36:36.164
And we kinda saw that with Olas by Pablo,

1290
01:36:36.945 --> 01:36:51.680
which had a secondary issue of it just he seemed I don't know if he's gonna refocus on it, but he seems like he kinda got distracted and wanted to do something else. But it was posting as a different kind. And so, like, if you were using Primal or Domus, you didn't see it.

1291
01:36:52.460 --> 01:37:00.435
You just those posts, you didn't see. But if you put a photo in a kind one note, you knew for a fact that, like, every major Nostra app would see it.

1292
01:37:01.635 --> 01:37:04.235
What are your thoughts on that? Like, what are your thoughts on

1293
01:37:04.675 --> 01:37:09.975
should we be separating all these things? Is it maybe an order of operations thing? Should we be separating them later?

1294
01:37:10.755 --> 01:37:12.855
I saw another example of that with,

1295
01:37:14.760 --> 01:37:15.260
Lucas.

1296
01:37:15.639 --> 01:37:18.380
This Nostra developer created Plebs dot app,

1297
01:37:19.159 --> 01:37:19.659
and

1298
01:37:20.840 --> 01:37:26.699
it's sort of, like, a video app focused on videos, and he had he was using a specific kind or whatever.

1299
01:37:27.559 --> 01:37:28.059
And

1300
01:37:29.895 --> 01:37:32.875
from someone who's optimistic about Nasr, like, I respect that.

1301
01:37:33.655 --> 01:37:44.190
But I but he asked me as someone who posts, you know, a prolific amount of video content to Nasr, and I was like, yeah. I'm just gonna keep posting kind one. Like, I there's already the like,

1302
01:37:44.490 --> 01:37:46.670
the network effect is already fucking tiny.

1303
01:37:47.210 --> 01:37:50.510
Like, I'm just gonna post an m p four link in a short note.

1304
01:37:51.290 --> 01:37:53.550
Yeah. I I flipped on this

1305
01:37:53.930 --> 01:37:59.255
recently, and, I don't know. I might flip again. But, you know, kind ones are this sort of,

1306
01:37:59.715 --> 01:38:00.215
broadcast

1307
01:38:00.515 --> 01:38:09.335
area where you can publicize everything, and they're widely supported and stuff. But I think, you know, the it's okay to have network partitioning. That's

1308
01:38:09.750 --> 01:38:14.329
a feature on Noester rather than a than a bug. There is no global view, and there is no global

1309
01:38:14.630 --> 01:38:15.530
content type,

1310
01:38:16.309 --> 01:38:37.805
that represents everything. And there are different apps. And for the same reason that onboarding is better served by an app that can, like, own a narrative and stuff, I think content types are better served by a given app. So, like, Olas should just do kind twenties and not make kind ones or try to hijack the Twitter use case with its stuff. Like, that's parasitic, and and,

1311
01:38:38.719 --> 01:38:47.219
if it was just kind 20, you wouldn't get, like, duplicates. You gotta, like, deal with all these technical problems if you try to bridge over to this other kind.

1312
01:38:47.520 --> 01:38:52.340
Would you think it that's all true, but don't you think it creates an adoption friction point?

1313
01:38:54.065 --> 01:38:58.485
I think it creates a a friction point for adoption of apps, but not for users.

1314
01:38:59.505 --> 01:39:00.245
Like, it

1315
01:39:00.865 --> 01:39:04.725
if you're posting a kind 20 and it shows up in a kind one client,

1316
01:39:05.220 --> 01:39:10.360
then it's just not going to be treated correctly. Not like It's just an image.

1317
01:39:11.060 --> 01:39:33.955
Yeah. But and I think, like, kind one People post images on Twitter. Like, what they post articles and images on Twitter. And in this case, like, maybe Olaf should have been a kind one client. That'll be the images. Because, like, yeah, you can put links in stuff, and it's just embedded content. There's not enough of a reason to be like, an image is a whole different thing. I think there could be if you really were optimizing for that.

1318
01:39:34.335 --> 01:39:38.840
But if you want it to be highly visible, then use kind ones. If you don't,

1319
01:39:39.540 --> 01:39:53.535
then don't. But, like, you know, there are certain things that don't fit in kind ones. Like, long form blog posts have markdown and kind ones Right. That makes sense to me. It you just get a broken experience, and you're hijacking this thing that's used for a different idiom.

1320
01:39:53.915 --> 01:39:55.935
So yeah. I mean, it takes a ton of judgment.

1321
01:39:56.795 --> 01:39:58.735
And you can always have a kind one

1322
01:39:59.275 --> 01:40:00.495
that is publicizing

1323
01:40:02.030 --> 01:40:22.955
a different kind. Like, you can do a short form that's like, look. I have this long form note. I have this blog post. And I think that's a great that's a great pattern because people do that already. Like, I made a made a video on YouTube, and I'm gonna cross post it to Twitter. And that's actually how people already use it. And so and, like, walled gardens exist for a reason. Right? They have these different content types, and they also have different demographics.

1324
01:40:23.335 --> 01:40:25.835
It it would be nice to be able to

1325
01:40:26.295 --> 01:40:28.715
microblog on any microblogging client.

1326
01:40:29.015 --> 01:40:29.515
But

1327
01:40:29.840 --> 01:40:34.260
to a certain extent, like, I don't really want my microblogging stuff to show up on my actual blog,

1328
01:40:34.719 --> 01:40:37.139
in a single stream or something like that. So,

1329
01:40:37.760 --> 01:40:40.559
yeah. I don't know. It's a it's a really hard design space, but I think,

1330
01:40:42.105 --> 01:40:42.605
people

1331
01:40:42.985 --> 01:40:43.805
it's okay

1332
01:40:44.105 --> 01:40:47.245
to split things up a little bit. It's not gonna kill

1333
01:40:47.625 --> 01:40:50.525
the community because the community exists in kind ones. Right?

1334
01:40:50.985 --> 01:40:56.845
So if you're on kind if you're on a kind 20 client, it's okay if you get less content that's additive

1335
01:40:57.480 --> 01:40:58.220
rather than,

1336
01:40:59.080 --> 01:41:00.860
splitting the actual social graph.

1337
01:41:01.960 --> 01:41:04.220
Unless someone exclusively uses kind 20

1338
01:41:04.760 --> 01:41:08.060
to post, but I don't think anyone does that. Right?

1339
01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:16.575
I mean, they did for a while. They were like, there was I think Derek might have been one of the people behind. It was, like, three hundred sixty five days of

1340
01:41:17.035 --> 01:41:22.655
of Olas or whatever. And he's like, I never saw any of those photos, and now no one's ever gonna see them probably.

1341
01:41:23.515 --> 01:41:26.415
Or maybe they would and then meanwhile, they could have just posted

1342
01:41:27.390 --> 01:41:29.730
an image file and to kind one,

1343
01:41:30.190 --> 01:41:36.050
and, you know, their friends would have seen it. I mean, I think that's the goal of posting a photo in the first place is your friends see it.

1344
01:41:36.430 --> 01:41:38.770
It's just an interesting like, I agree.

1345
01:41:39.870 --> 01:41:42.195
At scale, it makes complete sense to me.

1346
01:41:42.675 --> 01:41:44.935
But you have a bit of a chicken and the egg issue.

1347
01:41:45.474 --> 01:41:49.014
And as a both a user and someone focused on building out the protocol,

1348
01:41:50.355 --> 01:41:51.574
on the user side,

1349
01:41:51.875 --> 01:41:53.255
I'm a kind one maxi.

1350
01:41:54.580 --> 01:42:04.600
Well, there's also another thing where it's like, if if you can only get kind twenties in a kind 20 client, then you're gonna be incentivized to go and use that client. So it it put users to

1351
01:42:04.980 --> 01:42:06.600
actually use multiple clients

1352
01:42:07.185 --> 01:42:14.085
rather than just stay in Amethyst or something like that. And, like, super clients, I I think super clients are great. Korgle kind of is one,

1353
01:42:14.465 --> 01:42:14.965
where

1354
01:42:15.265 --> 01:42:16.325
content types,

1355
01:42:16.785 --> 01:42:20.565
and renders them or attempts to render them. Do you render kind twenties?

1356
01:42:20.865 --> 01:42:21.365
Yeah.

1357
01:42:21.905 --> 01:42:22.405
Nice.

1358
01:42:23.160 --> 01:42:26.780
And so if someone cross post a kind 20 to a kind one, now I've got duplicates.

1359
01:42:27.400 --> 01:42:36.655
And the That's an issue. How do you deal with that? Well, I don't. Like, trying to deduplicate those, that's a recipe for insanity because you're you're like, there's a combinatorial

1360
01:42:37.115 --> 01:42:42.475
number of ways that, like, notes can quote each other. Right. And trying to, like, manage that in software is,

1361
01:42:43.195 --> 01:42:49.535
is terrible. So avoiding the problem in the first place, you know, it comes with a cost. There are lots of costs to decentralization.

1362
01:42:50.710 --> 01:42:51.210
And,

1363
01:42:52.230 --> 01:42:56.570
but, you know, I think the the interesting thing is discovering what the benefits are,

1364
01:42:57.349 --> 01:43:00.170
to these, like, partitioning effects. Like,

1365
01:43:00.710 --> 01:43:03.210
I I think they can be good for us.

1366
01:43:03.670 --> 01:43:04.969
They're not just like,

1367
01:43:07.005 --> 01:43:10.705
yeah. I mean, it's, like, it's the global view thing. There is no global view. It's totally

1368
01:43:11.085 --> 01:43:12.184
a a,

1369
01:43:12.525 --> 01:43:13.905
an illusion. And so

1370
01:43:14.364 --> 01:43:28.670
navigating as a person There is no global. With even with different identities too. Because, like, you know, right now, a lot of people just are one pub key on Nostr, but you might want to log in to Olas with a different pub key than into your client client,

1371
01:43:29.610 --> 01:43:30.349
to purposely

1372
01:43:30.650 --> 01:43:32.349
split your identity because

1373
01:43:32.809 --> 01:43:54.180
you don't wanna be bombarding all of your, like, all of your followers who like Bitcoin with, pictures of your food. You know? That's exactly what I was saying, like cooking stuff. It seems like that's the example that's constantly thrown around. Okay. I mean, yeah, that all makes sense to me. I mean, that's I think one of the superpowers of Nasr is the

1374
01:43:54.800 --> 01:43:57.460
you can just instantly permission permissionlessly

1375
01:43:58.000 --> 01:43:59.060
spin up new identities.

1376
01:44:00.640 --> 01:44:05.145
And maybe we should be leaning into that more, but I also think that's probably another piece of, like,

1377
01:44:05.605 --> 01:44:08.185
where are we in the adoption cycle. It does kind

1378
01:44:09.285 --> 01:44:12.025
of fracture the network effect even further again,

1379
01:44:13.285 --> 01:44:14.345
but maybe it doesn't.

1380
01:44:15.045 --> 01:44:17.385
I don't know. I mean, I will say as

1381
01:44:17.900 --> 01:44:21.440
one of the, quote, unquote, large larger end pubs

1382
01:44:21.820 --> 01:44:22.480
on Nasr,

1383
01:44:23.179 --> 01:44:24.560
when I was on Twitter,

1384
01:44:25.340 --> 01:44:27.679
I was strictly would only post about Bitcoin

1385
01:44:30.465 --> 01:44:33.445
because I'm kind of antisocial media, and I that's

1386
01:44:34.225 --> 01:44:38.165
I was using it because I was interested in Bitcoin, and I wanna interact with the Bitcoin community.

1387
01:44:38.945 --> 01:44:42.965
And when in the bootstrapping phase of Nasr, I've tried to be more of a person,

1388
01:44:44.290 --> 01:44:47.110
because people are like, there's too much Bitcoin content. So it's like,

1389
01:44:47.810 --> 01:44:57.750
I have like, I have I try and post, like, OPSEC friendly dad photos, you know, without, like, showing the like, I would never if I if I was still at Twitter, I would never be posting photos of my kid.

1390
01:44:58.255 --> 01:45:07.875
And I try and strike a balance to bootstrap that network effect. I don't know. I'm kinda ranting here. The Testimony guide. It is a it is a community. Nostra is a community.

1391
01:45:08.415 --> 01:45:20.290
Yeah. You are behaving differently because more, like, you're lending more of yourself to the people on it, which is I think it's great. It's okay. It's okay even if it gets in the way of scaling.

1392
01:45:20.670 --> 01:45:22.690
But I think we're still gonna scale past it.

1393
01:45:23.550 --> 01:45:32.954
Yeah. Yeah. But I'm saying that's probably the, that's the opposite thing. Like, if Nasr already scaled, I'd only be talking about Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And so your behavioral change, and you'll split yourself into different pub keys, and,

1394
01:45:33.494 --> 01:45:35.195
you'll find your your people elsewhere.

1395
01:45:35.655 --> 01:45:43.730
I might be yeah. It'd be like a different pub key that was, like, talking about dad things or whatever. Yeah. Completely in, like, a permissioned way. Like,

1396
01:45:44.270 --> 01:45:50.290
you know, I I would not wanna broadcast to the entire world the details of my personal life

1397
01:45:50.750 --> 01:45:52.290
Right. Even though I do,

1398
01:45:52.989 --> 01:45:53.489
accidentally,

1399
01:45:54.030 --> 01:45:54.770
or inadvertently.

1400
01:45:56.175 --> 01:45:59.235
But, you know, the the whole circles idea is kinda cool.

1401
01:46:00.014 --> 01:46:05.395
And, yeah, Jeff has done a couple of relays that only let people you follow read your posts.

1402
01:46:05.935 --> 01:46:09.614
Yeah. But, I think MLS can make that work too. So

1403
01:46:10.320 --> 01:46:15.540
and I know people have been talking about that. So I I think that'll be, you know, Google plus and Google

1404
01:46:18.320 --> 01:46:21.860
You're muted. I can't hear you now. You just cut your engine.

1405
01:46:22.480 --> 01:46:24.020
Unplugged my mic accidentally.

1406
01:46:24.560 --> 01:46:31.525
That'll do it. But, yeah, Google plus, it was a it was a good idea, and, Google killed it. So we don't really get to see what the,

1407
01:46:32.165 --> 01:46:33.864
what that would've looked like at scale.

1408
01:46:35.045 --> 01:46:42.599
But maybe we could try it again. Yeah. They did had they had some interesting ideas there. That's where you get that's what you mean by circles. Right? Yeah.

1409
01:46:43.860 --> 01:46:45.639
It's interesting that they have, like,

1410
01:46:46.579 --> 01:46:50.440
such a monopoly on email, and they were never able to

1411
01:46:51.139 --> 01:46:56.165
bring it over to social in any kind of way. I mean, in a lot of ways, Gmail is a social media client.

1412
01:46:58.145 --> 01:46:59.765
Just a really horrible one.

1413
01:47:01.265 --> 01:47:05.105
I want to I have two more topics that I'd like to hit even though we're

1414
01:47:06.100 --> 01:47:08.120
it's been a long it's been a long conversation.

1415
01:47:08.900 --> 01:47:11.720
The first big one is your thoughts on monetization,

1416
01:47:13.140 --> 01:47:14.600
and I'll bring it back

1417
01:47:14.900 --> 01:47:17.080
because I think this is a big issue

1418
01:47:18.020 --> 01:47:19.560
on Nasr right now

1419
01:47:19.885 --> 01:47:21.665
is that we don't have sustainable,

1420
01:47:22.925 --> 01:47:23.425
profitable

1421
01:47:24.525 --> 01:47:25.025
projects.

1422
01:47:26.925 --> 01:47:40.440
They all are kind of like, there's all these one off grants. Like, obviously, OpenSets has been a key part of it. Some people are just working for free. A lot of people are just working for free. Some people are trying to rely on donations like Zaps, but it's just, like, not scaling.

1423
01:47:41.300 --> 01:47:44.039
I think Signal is an interesting example here again,

1424
01:47:45.219 --> 01:47:50.045
on, like, financial sustainability. And what most people don't realize about Signal Signal is it started as TechSecure,

1425
01:47:51.785 --> 01:47:52.605
and RedPhone,

1426
01:47:53.225 --> 01:47:55.324
and it was actually acquired by Twitter.

1427
01:47:56.344 --> 01:48:03.005
When you're, like, think about, like, open source projects, like, a lot of roads lead back to Jack, but it was acquired by Twitter. He was gonna implement

1428
01:48:03.540 --> 01:48:06.040
encrypted DMs. Never fucking happened.

1429
01:48:06.820 --> 01:48:09.000
But power to him, he he

1430
01:48:09.540 --> 01:48:12.040
as part of the deal, they open sourced

1431
01:48:12.579 --> 01:48:15.719
TextSecure and Redphone and made it independent of Twitter.

1432
01:48:17.699 --> 01:48:18.360
And then

1433
01:48:19.275 --> 01:48:20.575
WhatsApp sold to Facebook

1434
01:48:21.355 --> 01:48:22.975
and signed a deal with the devil,

1435
01:48:23.915 --> 01:48:31.215
and they shook hands with Zuck. And Zuck said, we'll never monetize user information, and then they did. And then Brian Acton of WhatsApp

1436
01:48:31.755 --> 01:48:34.815
ceded Signal Foundation with $50,000,000,

1437
01:48:35.969 --> 01:48:37.909
and they've been running as, you know,

1438
01:48:39.090 --> 01:48:41.829
a well polished, sustainable nonprofit

1439
01:48:42.130 --> 01:48:48.389
ever since that's focused on a single project. I don't think that is a thing that can happen for many projects. Like, that's not

1440
01:48:49.985 --> 01:48:50.885
that's not,

1441
01:48:51.264 --> 01:48:56.165
like, a realistic outcome. There was a lot of things that happened there that made that a reality.

1442
01:48:56.784 --> 01:48:58.724
So, I mean, how do you think about

1443
01:49:00.545 --> 01:49:04.965
how do you think about monetization sustainability in an ethical way on Nostra?

1444
01:49:05.719 --> 01:49:06.219
Yeah.

1445
01:49:06.679 --> 01:49:10.380
I that's a great question. I I'm not a good business guy, but,

1446
01:49:10.880 --> 01:49:12.140
I mean, I cases.

1447
01:49:12.600 --> 01:49:13.100
Yeah.

1448
01:49:14.679 --> 01:49:27.945
I I think, you know, it's definitely hard, and I, it makes me kinda sad to see people try to monetize because they're just it's not the volume right now. The the willingness to pay for cut for customers, for just consumers to pay for anything,

1449
01:49:28.485 --> 01:49:31.225
but especially social media is so low.

1450
01:49:32.300 --> 01:49:41.920
Usually, like, most like, 70% of the economic activity on the Internet is b to b because when you are a business, you're buying something. You're buying it so you can make more money.

1451
01:49:42.539 --> 01:49:48.055
So it's consumers that, like, ultimately pay because there's so many more consumers than there are businesses.

1452
01:49:48.515 --> 01:49:52.135
But the amount and willingness to pay is, like, is so low.

1453
01:49:52.435 --> 01:49:57.575
And I I think there are good open source business models. Like, one is, you know, Red Hat supports,

1454
01:49:58.035 --> 01:50:07.310
you know, charges for support. I think that's a great way to do it. Charging for aligned hosting as well. So, like, if you pay for a server, then,

1455
01:50:07.850 --> 01:50:20.795
you know, the the owner is is less likely to just kick you off at a moment's notice. And so having hosted relays is an okay way to do things for, like, you know, like, a a community relay especially.

1456
01:50:21.655 --> 01:50:26.795
And because Nostra assigned data, you can back everything up and restore without,

1457
01:50:27.469 --> 01:50:30.770
you know, even if you do get the And not trust the host. Yeah.

1458
01:50:31.390 --> 01:50:31.949
Yeah. Yeah.

1459
01:50:33.310 --> 01:50:33.810
But

1460
01:50:34.830 --> 01:50:52.515
yeah. Dude, the economic stuff I mean, we already see this with most, social media companies. They just had a super hard time making any money. Twitter took a long time to make any money, and it was through advertising that they survived. So They sold out their users. Yeah. Their users are literally data cap.

1461
01:50:52.880 --> 01:50:56.740
I think one thing that does help us on this is that no one has to scale,

1462
01:50:57.200 --> 01:51:01.060
because scaling is what's crazy expensive. You know? Signaling signal

1463
01:51:01.440 --> 01:51:05.460
signal servers are the cost center. Twitter servers are the cost center.

1464
01:51:06.720 --> 01:51:07.220
And,

1465
01:51:07.525 --> 01:51:11.545
you know, a developer is relatively cheap. If you got a couple developers,

1466
01:51:12.005 --> 01:51:13.625
you pay them, like, 30,000,

1467
01:51:15.285 --> 01:51:19.065
a month. Like, that's that's cheap for a business.

1468
01:51:20.165 --> 01:51:22.185
And so you only have to scale to,

1469
01:51:24.150 --> 01:51:29.610
like, yeah, a 100,000 users or something like that. Like, really, really small levels in order to survive.

1470
01:51:30.710 --> 01:51:31.930
I would love to see

1471
01:51:32.390 --> 01:51:39.505
that Like, little profitable small businesses basically. Yeah. Exactly. They're making, like, a million dollars profit a year, $500,000

1472
01:51:39.505 --> 01:51:43.045
profit a year, and they cover their expenses with a little bit of juice leftover.

1473
01:51:43.665 --> 01:51:44.165
Yeah.

1474
01:51:44.465 --> 01:51:49.445
I don't know how realistic that is, but with a with a protocol that realigns

1475
01:51:49.950 --> 01:51:51.410
incentives towards the user,

1476
01:51:52.430 --> 01:51:53.330
I think users

1477
01:51:53.870 --> 01:52:00.370
will appreciate that, and they'll be much more willing to pay for a product that isn't already

1478
01:52:00.910 --> 01:52:03.730
taking advantage of them in multiple other ways.

1479
01:52:06.165 --> 01:52:08.585
There's a couple of pieces there. First of all,

1480
01:52:09.445 --> 01:52:13.465
historically, users have been very hesitant to pay for things on the Internet.

1481
01:52:14.885 --> 01:52:15.945
But we've seen

1482
01:52:16.805 --> 01:52:18.025
x move to

1483
01:52:18.829 --> 01:52:25.170
at least a paid plus model that users have seemed to be adopting at least a little bit. I mean, their main business model is still

1484
01:52:26.269 --> 01:52:27.650
very much advertising.

1485
01:52:31.070 --> 01:52:31.570
And,

1486
01:52:32.510 --> 01:52:33.889
and the AI tools,

1487
01:52:34.885 --> 01:52:45.945
a lot of the I mean, they have real costs associated with them, but people seem to be willing to pay actually a significant sum for a lot of these AI tools. I mean, people are paying for ChatGPT, and ChatGPT still harvest all your data.

1488
01:52:47.820 --> 01:52:50.300
But they're paying, you know, $30.50,

1489
01:52:50.300 --> 01:52:54.880
a $100 a month sometimes for these sometimes more than that for these tools.

1490
01:52:55.580 --> 01:52:56.639
So that's an interesting

1491
01:52:57.020 --> 01:53:04.405
trend to watch. Like, maybe I mean and these are big companies. Like, if the big tech companies start transitioning people to paying for stuff,

1492
01:53:05.184 --> 01:53:07.045
then maybe we can ride that wave.

1493
01:53:07.744 --> 01:53:16.724
On the piece about hosting being the most obvious business model, it is. But the problem with that too is it's the part that has the most cost and also the most liability.

1494
01:53:17.300 --> 01:53:20.680
Like, I think Master Build has built, like, a little nice little

1495
01:53:21.220 --> 01:53:22.680
sustainable small business.

1496
01:53:25.140 --> 01:53:34.695
But, I mean, I know firsthand from the primal side, like, the amount of, like, CSEM scanning and stuff that you have to do is insane. Like, it's a business that is not an ideal business to be in.

1497
01:53:36.915 --> 01:53:44.855
I don't know. It's gonna be a struggle. It's interesting to speculate whether encryption is gonna help with that or hurt. Like, if you're hosting a bunch of encrypted stuff on your encrypted

1498
01:53:45.315 --> 01:53:48.295
media or encrypted groups onto your server,

1499
01:53:48.730 --> 01:53:49.230
like,

1500
01:53:49.770 --> 01:53:52.510
are you liable for that and according to whom?

1501
01:53:54.170 --> 01:53:57.389
You know, you don't know what it is, so you can't really do much under American

1502
01:53:57.929 --> 01:54:00.170
United States law. I think that's that's,

1503
01:54:00.745 --> 01:54:01.245
okay.

1504
01:54:01.785 --> 01:54:02.685
But it might be

1505
01:54:03.065 --> 01:54:05.565
very difficult for people under different,

1506
01:54:06.585 --> 01:54:07.085
jurisdictions.

1507
01:54:08.505 --> 01:54:09.965
And, like, you know,

1508
01:54:10.425 --> 01:54:15.725
are we are we doing the right thing? Are we helping people that way? Like, I strongly believe that

1509
01:54:16.070 --> 01:54:18.250
if there are some bad actors out there,

1510
01:54:18.790 --> 01:54:24.250
doing illegal things, that is an acceptable cost of freedom for everyone else.

1511
01:54:25.350 --> 01:54:29.770
But it's it's like, you you there is no perfect solution.

1512
01:54:31.594 --> 01:54:36.655
And, but, yeah, I think protecting service providers from liability is is a good way to go.

1513
01:54:37.435 --> 01:54:43.790
Yeah. I mean, I think encryption does help. And I've I mean, we this is the fight that signal's been fighting for a while. And,

1514
01:54:44.490 --> 01:54:48.510
I mean, you're very right. Like, America's the best jurisdiction to be in in that regard.

1515
01:54:49.610 --> 01:54:52.670
But, also, they have an amazing front person. Like, Meredith Whitaker,

1516
01:54:54.250 --> 01:54:57.070
speaks to it way better than I could ever speak to it.

1517
01:54:57.885 --> 01:55:03.425
And she came from big tech, which is fascinating. Her story in general is actually really interesting.

1518
01:55:04.765 --> 01:55:20.860
But, yeah, all roads keep going back to signal, by the way, and just on how I think about a lot of these things if it's not obvious. Yeah. It's very static. Like like you're saying, it's like a it's a very special project. It doesn't happen very often. And I think the truth the same is true of Nostril. Not not quite, obviously, at the same scale, but,

1519
01:55:21.640 --> 01:55:24.620
Nostril is a pretty special thing. And it can't just be replicated,

1520
01:55:26.035 --> 01:55:26.535
architecturally,

1521
01:55:27.635 --> 01:55:29.415
and get the same sort of, like,

1522
01:55:30.355 --> 01:55:31.975
natural social growth.

1523
01:55:32.755 --> 01:55:36.055
Yeah. I mean, the organic viral developer community is something

1524
01:55:36.435 --> 01:55:38.295
that I've only seen in,

1525
01:55:39.930 --> 01:55:41.630
Nasr and Bitcoin

1526
01:55:41.930 --> 01:55:42.750
and Cashew.

1527
01:55:44.250 --> 01:55:49.950
It's very, very rare. It's not something you can just create out of thin air. Like, base will not have a

1528
01:55:50.489 --> 01:55:51.790
viral open source,

1529
01:55:52.650 --> 01:55:56.625
and it doesn't matter how much money they throw at it. They might be able to buy off the content creators,

1530
01:55:57.805 --> 01:56:00.145
but it's really hard to get organic,

1531
01:56:01.165 --> 01:56:15.080
like, developer interest in these kind of things. Sorry to interrupt. Did do you know how threads is doing? Because threads I mean, that was what? A year and a half ago? I think people use it. They use it? Uh-huh. They signed up every Instagram user. I don't know. I've been out of sight of the Facebook ecosystem

1532
01:56:16.100 --> 01:56:17.720
for so fucking long.

1533
01:56:20.315 --> 01:56:22.574
Like, the crazy thing about threads is, like,

1534
01:56:23.114 --> 01:56:26.735
Zuck and to people that aren't aware, threads is,

1535
01:56:27.915 --> 01:56:28.415
Instagram's

1536
01:56:28.875 --> 01:56:29.614
ex competitor

1537
01:56:29.915 --> 01:56:32.815
or Facebook's ex competitor. He just signed up every all Facebook users or at least all Instagram users automatically at or

1538
01:56:34.130 --> 01:56:34.790
Instagram users

1539
01:56:35.250 --> 01:56:36.710
automatically, or threads users.

1540
01:56:37.409 --> 01:56:43.829
It was like when they dropped the YouTube album on iPhones, and they're like he was like, we have, like, the second most users of any app,

1541
01:56:44.449 --> 01:56:47.590
the day after launch. He just added everyone automatically.

1542
01:56:49.455 --> 01:56:56.415
But I assume people use it. I don't fucking know. Yeah. Per Perplexity tells me that they have a 115,000,000

1543
01:56:56.415 --> 01:57:04.800
daily active users and a million new daily sign ups. And that But, like, also, like, that's completely trusted. Like, we're just trusting Facebook to tell us. And and perplexity.

1544
01:57:05.740 --> 01:57:06.240
Yeah.

1545
01:57:07.420 --> 01:57:09.520
Like, that's the other thing. Like, user numbers

1546
01:57:09.980 --> 01:57:13.360
people get obsessed with Nasr user numbers because we can actually make

1547
01:57:13.740 --> 01:57:17.360
independent estimates because the whole system is is pretty open.

1548
01:57:20.445 --> 01:57:20.945
But,

1549
01:57:21.565 --> 01:57:36.750
like, there's like, user numbers are just so fake across the board. Like, no one really knows Oh, yeah. They have what really user numbers are. And, like, it's shocking how so many of these big tech platforms just blatantly lie about user numbers, engagement,

1550
01:57:37.530 --> 01:57:40.830
about, like, even ad spend to ad partners.

1551
01:57:41.290 --> 01:57:44.989
Like, there's bunch of instances where they just defraud other businesses

1552
01:57:45.530 --> 01:57:47.870
because there's no accountability or transparency.

1553
01:57:48.585 --> 01:58:01.165
It's insane. I, yeah. I mean, anyone who's ever paid for, like, Facebook ads or x ads, they'll tell you the same thing. Like, it tells you, like, a 100,000 people, like, interacted with this thing, and then you get no real

1554
01:58:01.980 --> 01:58:08.780
you get, like, no real engagement out of it. Yeah. There's some So something doesn't connect. That, was spending a $100,000,000

1555
01:58:08.780 --> 01:58:16.865
on on advertising every year, and they were just like, let's see what happens if we just don't spend any money on advertising. And their sales

1556
01:58:18.045 --> 01:58:21.985
did not change at all. Yeah. It was all organic. Yeah. It's insane.

1557
01:58:25.085 --> 01:58:32.860
Okay. Last topic for you before we wrap. You just published a book. You self published a book on Nostril, building on Nostril, building out Nostril.

1558
01:58:34.280 --> 01:58:38.220
What is it? Why did you do it? Why should we care? Should we read it?

1559
01:58:39.080 --> 01:58:40.635
Yes. You should read it.

1560
01:58:42.875 --> 01:58:44.335
Yeah. It's called Building Noister.

1561
01:58:44.795 --> 01:58:45.454
I've been

1562
01:58:45.994 --> 01:58:52.255
reading a lot, been doing my podcast, talking to interesting people for a few years, and there's a book that I really want to read,

1563
01:58:53.114 --> 01:59:00.989
which is, like, okay. Well, how do you fix the Internet, and what's what's the Internet for? Just like a lot of the stuff we've been talking about now. Unfortunately

1564
01:59:01.449 --> 01:59:06.270
well, I tried to write that book. I got 10,000 words in, and I gave up because I don't have the answers still.

1565
01:59:06.810 --> 01:59:11.955
So I wrote this book instead, which is just all the stuff that I've learned about NoSTer and what makes it special.

1566
01:59:12.575 --> 01:59:13.235
You know,

1567
01:59:13.615 --> 01:59:15.795
what sets it apart from all these other protocols,

1568
01:59:16.815 --> 01:59:18.755
how to think about developing on it because

1569
01:59:19.295 --> 01:59:21.570
there's a lot of really weird choices

1570
01:59:22.110 --> 01:59:24.690
that are not conventional. Like, an example is,

1571
01:59:26.590 --> 01:59:27.890
you know, like, DIDS.

1572
01:59:28.430 --> 01:59:32.210
People always show up to Noister and they're like, why are we not using DIDS?

1573
01:59:32.830 --> 01:59:34.370
Let's use let's use DIDS.

1574
01:59:34.830 --> 01:59:37.535
And it's like, that's a pretty conventional

1575
01:59:38.315 --> 01:59:39.615
idea in the decentralized,

1576
01:59:40.635 --> 01:59:43.455
tech space, but a lot of this stuff comes from,

1577
01:59:44.155 --> 01:59:52.380
you know, the leftists who, have, like, a flawed mental model for thinking about it all. And, you know, another example is, namespace qualified,

1578
01:59:53.239 --> 01:59:56.940
names. So, like, social.coracledot,

1579
01:59:57.560 --> 01:59:58.219
you know,

1580
01:59:58.840 --> 02:00:03.179
kind one or, you know, whatever, note or tweet or whatever. Yeah. And,

1581
02:00:03.755 --> 02:00:06.014
instead of kinds, which are just numeric.

1582
02:00:06.395 --> 02:00:08.574
And what numeric gets you is,

1583
02:00:09.514 --> 02:00:10.815
you don't have conflicts,

1584
02:00:11.755 --> 02:00:13.775
because they're and you don't have semantics,

1585
02:00:14.315 --> 02:00:20.600
and therefore, you don't no one owns the namespace. Because if I do, like, if everyone has to adopt social .coracle's namespace,

1586
02:00:21.940 --> 02:00:27.719
like, I get to make the make the call. And and you see this. It's it's, like, it's meaningless, but it's a human bias,

1587
02:00:28.660 --> 02:00:30.360
to to put assign ownership

1588
02:00:30.660 --> 02:00:31.320
to things.

1589
02:00:31.685 --> 02:00:38.905
So there's just, like, a bunch of stuff like that in Noester that is not intuitive. It's not how I would have done it. A lot of it's very ugly,

1590
02:00:39.605 --> 02:00:40.105
but

1591
02:00:40.485 --> 02:00:46.770
there are huge lessons to be learned from how it's set up, and it's really interesting. And it also forces

1592
02:00:47.230 --> 02:00:52.690
developers to take on a different sort of paradigm when developing no store applications.

1593
02:00:54.030 --> 02:01:03.235
You know, if you hijack existing kinds because things are sort of similar or your hard code relays or whatever, and relay selection is a big deal for keeping things decentralized.

1594
02:01:03.855 --> 02:01:05.955
So I just wanted to, like, share

1595
02:01:06.495 --> 02:01:09.395
what I've learned about Nostril development since I started,

1596
02:01:09.935 --> 02:01:10.595
so that

1597
02:01:11.295 --> 02:01:14.430
people who have not yet learned these lessons have the opportunity to,

1598
02:01:15.150 --> 02:01:16.190
and also to,

1599
02:01:16.670 --> 02:01:22.370
you know, feed it into the LLMs to make them, make better software as well. And it's it's it's

1600
02:01:22.990 --> 02:01:23.490
specifically

1601
02:01:23.870 --> 02:01:30.210
developer focused. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very developer focused. It's not, like, ultra technical or in the weeds,

1602
02:01:30.765 --> 02:01:41.905
but you definitely have to have a mental model for, you know, developing software in order to understand a lot of what it is. It's also kinda philosophical. Like, I talk a lot about different kinds of communities and

1603
02:01:42.590 --> 02:01:46.769
and, I make a lot of It could be helpful to non developers as well, you think?

1604
02:01:47.949 --> 02:01:53.090
Yeah. I think so. I mean, you you're do you count yourself as the as a developer? No.

1605
02:01:53.630 --> 02:01:55.070
You understand Noister better than,

1606
02:01:56.105 --> 02:01:57.565
some developers do. So,

1607
02:01:58.585 --> 02:02:01.005
you could read it, and you should read it. I think Derek Ross,

1608
02:02:01.385 --> 02:02:03.725
is excited to read it. I'm technically curious.

1609
02:02:04.185 --> 02:02:11.880
Yeah. There you go. Technically curious. That's good enough, I think. It's written in human language. It's not there's not a lot of code in the book.

1610
02:02:12.600 --> 02:02:16.380
Okay. I'll definitely check it out. And you released it for free. I'll put the link

1611
02:02:17.000 --> 02:02:22.780
in the show notes, Freaks. Yes. It's at building-nostril.coracle.social.

1612
02:02:23.159 --> 02:02:25.179
I'll I'll put the link in the show notes.

1613
02:02:27.485 --> 02:02:30.864
That's a perfect example, by the way, where a namespace would be very helpful,

1614
02:02:32.364 --> 02:02:34.125
with a shorter domain. But,

1615
02:02:35.485 --> 02:02:40.065
Freaks, if you enjoy if you enjoy the book or if you enjoy this conversation, make sure,

1616
02:02:41.280 --> 02:02:42.980
use that, PaddleBot, and Oster.

1617
02:02:44.239 --> 02:02:47.219
Show your support. It's a true value for value endeavor,

1618
02:02:48.079 --> 02:02:52.980
releasing the book out for free. It is cool. Like, I I think that's an interesting

1619
02:02:56.575 --> 02:02:59.235
scaling layer for open knowledge and open

1620
02:02:59.855 --> 02:03:05.315
source software is the rise of AIs is that that kind of stuff does get fed into

1621
02:03:05.695 --> 02:03:06.675
the different LLMs,

1622
02:03:07.700 --> 02:03:12.360
while a lot of the closed stuff doesn't, even though they're all dealing with, like, copyright rules and

1623
02:03:12.900 --> 02:03:14.760
manually scanning books and shit,

1624
02:03:15.380 --> 02:03:16.600
stealing news articles,

1625
02:03:17.460 --> 02:03:20.040
which is a whole different quagmire. But Yeah.

1626
02:03:21.105 --> 02:03:24.725
It's kinda interesting. It it could scale this whole movement a lot more.

1627
02:03:26.145 --> 02:03:29.765
HuddlBot, this was fantastic. I actually thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.

1628
02:03:31.905 --> 02:03:33.365
I entered it pretty tired,

1629
02:03:34.300 --> 02:03:39.600
and we just blew through two hours without me even really thinking about it. I had a lot of fun with it.

1630
02:03:40.060 --> 02:03:46.880
Awesome. Glad to hear it. I enjoyed it too. It's always a pleasure talking to you. You are you're a great host, great interviewer.

1631
02:03:47.260 --> 02:03:52.555
Very sharp. I appreciate it. Well, thank thank you for saying that because I don't always agree with you,

1632
02:03:53.255 --> 02:03:57.755
or agree with that. Do you have any final thoughts to the audience before we wrap? Yeah.

1633
02:03:58.055 --> 02:04:03.275
Go read my book, but first, go read, Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan.

1634
02:04:05.520 --> 02:04:06.820
Technology is

1635
02:04:07.360 --> 02:04:10.099
a environment in which living things exist,

1636
02:04:10.639 --> 02:04:12.659
and it's a complex system,

1637
02:04:13.040 --> 02:04:13.540
and

1638
02:04:14.000 --> 02:04:15.380
there are negative externalities.

1639
02:04:16.095 --> 02:04:17.715
And the relationship between

1640
02:04:18.095 --> 02:04:22.755
technology and people is really complicated, and that's the best book that I've read for,

1641
02:04:23.375 --> 02:04:23.875
understanding

1642
02:04:24.495 --> 02:04:25.875
what the heck is going on.

1643
02:04:26.575 --> 02:04:29.215
It was written in, I think, 1963.

1644
02:04:29.215 --> 02:04:30.675
So pretty old, but

1645
02:04:31.150 --> 02:04:33.170
really, really interesting, enjoyable.

1646
02:04:34.350 --> 02:04:38.290
Yeah. So I would just everything I can do is is point people towards,

1647
02:04:39.070 --> 02:04:40.050
that kind of stuff.

1648
02:04:40.510 --> 02:04:43.170
Philip Sheldrake is also good. Yvonne Illich,

1649
02:04:44.195 --> 02:04:45.655
just read more, I guess.

1650
02:04:46.195 --> 02:04:47.255
Read more, Freaks.

1651
02:04:47.635 --> 02:04:51.094
Words of wisdom right there. Stop doom scrolling and read more.

1652
02:04:52.675 --> 02:05:01.030
Halabod, this is great. Freaks, thank you for joining us in the live chat. Thank you for supporting the show. All the relevant links are at silldispatch.com.

1653
02:05:01.409 --> 02:05:02.869
Share with your friends and family.

1654
02:05:04.449 --> 02:05:06.230
Hit the subscribe button or don't,

1655
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on your favorite platform.

1656
02:05:08.610 --> 02:05:09.510
You do you.

1657
02:05:09.969 --> 02:05:11.270
I have Cali joining,

1658
02:05:12.735 --> 02:05:13.555
on Wednesday.

1659
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Next Wednesday, Callie's joining. Sixteen hundred UTC.

1660
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Join us live. I'm sure it'll be a banger.

1661
02:05:22.335 --> 02:05:23.235
Always is.

1662
02:05:23.615 --> 02:05:24.115
HuddleBot,

1663
02:05:24.629 --> 02:05:28.649
I enjoyed this, and you have a fascinating perspective. We'll do this more often?

1664
02:05:29.429 --> 02:05:30.249
Sounds good.

1665
02:05:30.629 --> 02:05:31.129
Awesome.

1666
02:05:32.069 --> 02:05:34.249
Love you all. Stay on the Stack Sights.