CD169: BEN KAUFMAN - BITCOIN KEEPER - MULTISIG WALLETS

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Created: 07/21/2025 21:35:39
Duration: 3829.525
Channels: 1

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So Coinbase, now we're replacing their Wallet app with the Base app. So it's a complete rebrand, a full replacement. It's sort of an everything app they're calling it, which I think we can think of as more of a super app, something,

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comparable to WeChat in China, which, you and I were just talking about. This kind of super app idea has been the holy grail of fintech for a very long time. So really interesting to see what Coinbase does with it here. And they're really

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they're really putting the message out toward content creators

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because,

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because this is going to be a Web three version of a super app. So they wanna get that decentralization angle in there for creators. It is interesting to see what Coinbase does with the decentralized angle because they're, you know, trying to get into this new, consumer market for people who

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could benefit from the Web three economy, but might not necessarily be interested in crypto or crypto trading.

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So I think that's why they're focusing on creators. They're saying, you know, you're able to control your data and your content in whatever way you want. You do not have to be held to whatever rules the algorithm wants. We'll see.

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Happy

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Bitcoin Monday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here

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for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro clip was from CNBC,

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I believe, earlier today,

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maybe yesterday.

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It appears Coinbase is launching

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a social app that they claim is built on top of Web three. I haven't actually looked into the technical specifics there,

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but it's gonna have a shitcoin wallet built in, shitcoin trading,

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social feed like Twitter ish,

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social games,

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and USDC zaps,

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USD token zaps.

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Sounds kinda similar to Nasr.

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I'll buy it in a more dystopian way, probably a less scalable way.

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Kind of the same vision we're trying to build out at Primal, so I thought it was interesting.

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Anyway, Freaks, that clip had nothing to do with our episode today.

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As always,

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CIL dispatch is

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free of ads and sponsors.

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We're supported by viewers like you who support the show with Zaps.

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Historically, the easiest way you could send Zaps is in our live Nostra stream.

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That is down for a second week in a row

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a denial of service attack

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Our friend Karen is working on fixing that.

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But you can also support the show through podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcasts,

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which you can download in your favorite app store.

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The top zap there,

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from last week was Blockchain Boog with a thousand sats saying, big fan of PPQ. It's my main driver for AI services. Thanks, Matt.

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Thank you, sir, for supporting the show.

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I love the live chat. So even though we don't have the Nostra stream going,

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we'll be piping in the live chat from Twitch, YouTube, and x. Anyway, freaks,

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I have my good friend here, Ben Kaufman,

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long time

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Bitcoiner,

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famously built Specter Wallet, helped build Specter Wallet. Now he's focused on building Bitcoin Keeper. How's it going, Ben?

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Yeah. Good. Doing well.

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Thanks for inviting me.

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Good to have you, sir.

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And it's good to have you building in the Bitcoin space again.

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I think,

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a good place to start is,

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Specter Wallet. So

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to me, Specter Wallet,

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rose onto the scene as a free and open source,

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coordinator for using your hardware wallets easily,

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whether that was single sig or multisig.

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What are your thoughts on on on that process, your experience building out that product

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or that project,

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and where we stand today?

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Yeah. I mean, back when Specter just, just started was, what, 2020.

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There was basically only Electrum for for, multi sig and using your own node. You had to set up Electrum server.

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Specter was trying to simplify it. So it was connecting directly to Bitcoin core. So you don't have to set up Electrum server. You could use directly your,

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your hardware wallet. So it was trying to give you a better interface for everything, basically.

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And I think it did a pretty good job at that, at the time

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because well, also, the the only thing in the market was was pretty much Electrum.

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Right now, you have quite a lot more solutions.

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You have Keeper, which we're working on now, but you also have Nunchuk, you have Sparrow,

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you have

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Kasa now. So you have quite a few solutions to to choose from.

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Yeah. I think I think Kasa and Unchained might have existed already when Spectre came out. So Sparrow definitely didn't. Indip. I'm not sure. And, yeah, and Unchained had Carvan, but it was also very,

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in the very beginning, so it didn't have most of the feature that Specter offered.

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Yeah. Specter was like the I mean, besides Electrum was the only real, like, false

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self hosted way of handling multisig. Yeah. At least in an easy way.

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Yeah. I mean, p I kids these days don't realize how easy they have it.

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Yeah. Like, that was on that was only five years ago.

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Yeah. It's it's amazing the

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the speed of the progress here because, yeah, just five years ago, like, making multisig

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was was quite a nightmare.

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Right now, I can do it in, like, a minute maybe.

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So it's it's amazing how far we've gone.

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So interesting.

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So Keeper well, Bitcoin Keeper. What is Bitcoin Keeper? What are you aiming to solve? How do people use it?

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Yeah. So Bitcoin Keeper is essentially a wallet that tries to make it easy to secure your Bitcoin for the long term.

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So from the start, right, from the

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from when you just start stacking, you need just a hot wallet or something and take you all the way until you need, like, full inheritance planning, multisig, everything. So it tries to give you all the options for all the stages in the way.

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It's basically an app on your phone. Right? You download it, you set it up, you get a hot wallet immediately.

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With that, you can then set up Hadoop wallets with it. You can set up multistig. We also have some advanced miniscript features, but the entire idea is to help you secure,

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everything for for generations, basically.

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So you start with,

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it starts with single sig on your phone. So someone fresh to Bitcoin, has never self custody before,

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they can download Bitcoin Keeper from it's on Android and iPhone. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Both. They can just download it from their app store, and then they can create a self custody wallet,

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just with their phone and send Bitcoin to it. Right?

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Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. So they can start, very easy.

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You can set it up and just try it out, with with small amounts just to get used to everything.

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Then when you want to move on, you can get the Hadoop wallet and connect with it.

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How do you for that single sig wallet, how do you handle backup situation? Is it just using seed phrases?

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Yeah. It's with, with seed phrases. So what we do is we have, you have your we call it a recovery key, which is your, like, master seed phrase, let's call it. And then we use b beta five to generate,

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child seeds. So if you want to have multiple wallets, you can have multiple and pick them up separately if you if you want. If you wanna, like, segregate funds, but you have that single backup seed. Yeah. So you can have, like, a single backup, but also if you want to, like, give out one or keep some separately,

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both in the like, on the wallets themselves and in this, their backups, you can also do that.

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Awesome. So

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we have the single sig wallet. That's probably where most users will start. They back it up with the seed.

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And then you mentioned hardware wallets. How does the hardware wallet support work? Do you support all the majors? Is it QR code based? Is it NFC based? How does that work?

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Yeah. So we have everything. Right? So we support all the major ones. I think about 10 or so.

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We have all the options. Right? So you are

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a file NFC for those who support that. And then those who support only USB like Ledger or Trezor or Bitbox, we have a desktop app where you can just it's basically it's not a full desktop app right now. It's just a companion app. You download it, and you can connect it via QR to,

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to your

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app on your phone.

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So you can still use hard wallets which require USB connection.

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Because iPhones don't let you just natively connect via USB. It's it's, quite a problem to connect it natively via USB. Yeah. That's pretty clever. I didn't realize that.

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So and then

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so what? If they're on their phone and and they're going through that process, does it just direct them to download the desktop app?

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Yeah. So if they're,

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if they're want to use a USB, if they choose USB or if they choose a wallet which

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a a Huddl Wallet which only supports USB, then, yeah, it will tell them, okay. Download the app,

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from our website and then follow these steps, basically.

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Got it.

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And so okay. So

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the first step is the user is

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I like the idea of the progression. So to me, it's always been, like, the holy grail is, like, this idea

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of

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of a way for a user to start

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start easy without additional hardware and then upgrade their process over time. So you have the you start with the hot wallet. You start with the wallet on your phone, which is pretty secure, but still not cold storage. And when we talk about cold storage,

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what we mean is is keys are always held offline and never touch an Internet connected device, which is the single biggest improvement you can make to self custody,

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because it means that someone can't remotely

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can't remotely,

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steal your funds. They have to actually compromise the keys that are offline,

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and that's why hardware wallets exist. So then you move from that to a hardware wallet, a single sig hardware wallet.

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Ideally, you're using one of the better ones.

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My favorite remains the cold card. You use the cold card. You never actually connect

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your cold card to the Internet,

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and you're just using Keeper to effectively coordinate the transaction, set up the transaction, look at your balances,

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and then you sign with with the offline hardware wallet.

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Okay. But if you wanna, you know, if you wanna then go even further and improve that setup, you would move to something like Multisig. How how does how do you handle Multisig in Bitcoin keeper?

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Yeah. So just as you can set up a single key, you can add more keys and set up multisig. Right? So you can add your keys, whatever. It's a Hadoop wallet or another mobile wallet. Let's say another keeper app on someone else's phone.

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You can just add that to your app basically and go to the create wallet section. You select the keys that you want, you will select your aquarium, your threshold,

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and you click create. And basically, that's it. You have the wallet ready.

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And then so you have all then at that point,

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if I've if this is my third wallet, now I have all those wallets are still in the same app. So you have a list of the wallet here in the app. So you can have your, let's say, your,

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hot wallet, then your single key, then your multi sig, let's say.

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That's pretty cool.

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And if you have So quality wallets, then you can have that in the list. Right? So you can have maybe you want to have your own, multisig and you want to have a collaborative wallet with someone else. It will all appear there, basically.

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Right. And so when we talk about multisig, the cool part about multisig is,

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in that situation, you have multiple hardware wallets. You can keep them in different places,

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and then you're even more resistant to theft because someone who wants to compromise you has to

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compromise multiple hardware wallets, and presumably go to these multiple physical locations to do it.

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But it also works really well for organizations,

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that don't want, like, the CEO to have full control over the funds. Like, we see this with OpenSats. Our entire treasuries and Bitcoin multisig,

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and we don't want one single person to be able to take the treasury.

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So you mentioned collaborative

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tools there.

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So in an organization

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setup, you have you have situation where maybe

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the CTO is holding one key, the CFO is holding one key, the CEO is holding one key, or you could imagine a family situation kind of being similar.

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How do you handle the

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collaboration element? Because that's always been you know, if you're using something like Sparrow, like, you're sending basically, you're sending these partially signed Bitcoin transactions through, like, signal or something to handle that coordination.

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Yeah. So basically, right now what we did is we basically let you generate,

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let's call it a magic link where you

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generate the app generates a link for you where the information is encrypted,

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saved on our servers encrypted for a few moments.

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Then you send the link with, which basically contains the key to decrypt it.

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The users download the content,

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decrypt it. It's it gets deleted also.

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And then it's basically in their opens their app with,

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with the Deeply. So that is that that's to set up the wallet at first setup?

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So this is, whatever you want. Right? So if it's, to share the wallet with them. So let's say they want to share the key with you, so they can share their key with this link. Then if you want to send them the,

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the descriptor

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so they can import the wallet on their side, or if you want to send them the transaction to sign or when they send it back after they sign the transaction.

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So all the old process you can do with with these links. Or you can do with QR, with files. And you give them those options.

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People the user can choose. Yeah. We we give all these options. But let most people will probably choose the link method. So, like, they're setting up their wallet, and they're basically if there's three of us, we're we're

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the first one sets up

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to begin with, takes the link, sends it on signal or whatever to the second person. They click the link. They they add their key, then the third person does it. It's like that. Right?

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Mhmm. Yeah. So

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pretty much. So when you send the link, it shares the the PSVT

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behind the scenes. It opens up the app on the other user side. When he clicks the link, it shows him the transaction, the option to sign it. After it signed, it shows him the option to send it back. Right? And then it generates the new link that they send you.

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That's awesome. That's pretty clean.

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And how do you handle so, like, when someone's choosing multisig, they can do, like, a two of three. So we have three keys, you need two to suspend.

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They can do three of five.

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How do you handle that? Is that up to the user? What are your defaults?

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Yeah. It's it's up to the user. So we have, like, the the recommendation is to do either a single key at two or three or three or five, but we have the option there. So the user can just choose the, to set it himself, and then, he can choose whatever he wants. That's awesome. Okay.

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While we're here,

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I'm kind of curious

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on

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your opinion

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on multisig versus single sig, single sig plus passphrase for the average person.

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Yeah. So

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multisig versus single sig like, normal single sig is is pretty straightforward on the on the trade off. I don't think it needs a lot of explanation. So multisig is a lot like more complicated. It needs a bit more setup, but it gives you more security and more redundancy.

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Right. I don't think this is something that people tend to compare. Really. It's clear that a single key is easier but

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less secure, less fault tolerant.

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So the trade offs are very clear. Right. It's just using one key versus two out of three keys.

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Again, if you need less, if you have,

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well, not such a large amount that you're saving,

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you can do with a single key, probably. But if you want to secure life savings

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or

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like a treasury of a company, then you definitely want the multi sig.

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Then you have

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the big discussion on multi sig versus single sig with a pass raise.

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I'm definitely on the camp of multisig and not using a passphrase.

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I think the only I'll I'll start just with the side of the passphrase. The only benefit I can see from it is the somewhat

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the obfuscation that you can do.

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It has a bit of an easier plausible deniability

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with the

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with the with regard to the funds. Yeah. Because you're gonna because you could have

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you could have so when you when we're talking about a passphrase is

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so if when you create single sig, like, the wallet is generating

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24 words for you or 12 words depending on your wallet, and then the passphrase is a user generated twenty fifth word.

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And the cool part about a passphrase is that you can actually have multiple passphrases,

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and they all are different wallets. So you could theoretically

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have multiple wallets on the same seed.

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And in a situation when he when Ben's talking about plausible deniability in a situation where someone's trying to compel you to give up your wallet, you can give them a different passphrase that has a different,

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amount of funds on it.

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Or you can even the regular seed without the pass raise could have funds on it, and the the one with the pass raise could have more funds on it,

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is what he's referring to with plausible deniability.

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I mean, Ben, I mean, I kinda wanna

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dive a little bit deeper into this topic because

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what I've noticed

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is

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recently,

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you know,

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with with the rise of these Bitcoin treasury companies,

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you know, championed by MSTR

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being by far the leader. There's, like, MSTR and then everybody else.

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And the ETFs

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is what a lot of people tend to do in terms of recommending things to people

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is they're like, you can

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go on to Charles Schwab, and you can buy

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one of these ETFs or MSTR or whatever, and that's super easy, and you won't fuck it up. Or if you want a self custody, you have to do multisig,

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and you have to have this overly complicated setup.

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Yeah. Yeah. I see this.

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And so so one of my concerns I I've had lately is, like

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so, like, let's use me as an example, which I hate doing, but let's use me as an example. I'm a public figure in

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Bitcoin.

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I have a different threat model

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than

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than the average Bitcoiner, and I and I'm also much more technically competent.

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So I use Multisig, and I specifically use

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geographically distributed multisig where all the keys are in in one location.

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And that's, I think, really important for my specific threat model.

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With OpenSats,

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we use geographically distributed

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multisig because we're an organization, and we don't want a single person to have access to the funds.

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But for the average person,

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even if they are holding a larger amount and this is always the nuance of the whole thing because people just say large amount, small amount. Well, what does that even mean? No one knows what the fuck that means. It depends on the person.

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Even if they're holding a larger amount, like single sig hardware wallet, cold storage,

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they keep their seat offline.

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They put a passphrase on that thing.

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Pretty good security model. Like, I don't think like, it's simple. It's simple. It's straightforward. Pretty good security model. And if you start comparing that to the security model of holding MSTR,

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it's it can be substantially better depending on your drug model. Like, if you're holding MSTR, you're trusting

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you're trusting three companies. Right? You're trusting

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Charles Schwab or whoever your broker is. You're trusting MSTR

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and Sailor, and then you're trusting whoever their custodian is.

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Exactly. Yeah. So it there seems to be to me, it seems to be a false equivalency. Like and that's why I like Bitcoin Keeper is because

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it does kind of ease them into it.

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Exactly. Yeah. This is what this is what we're trying to achieve there. So, yeah, of course, that's what I'm saying. You don't have to dive right into multisig. Right? It's never either,

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MSTR or multisig. Right? There is a lot in between.

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And, yeah, Multisig is not for everyone, especially not at first. You don't have to start there.

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You can just start with with a hot wallet at first just to try

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a little bit, then you buy a harder wallet,

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then maybe you put a passphrase on it, then maybe you consider multisig. Right? But you have to kind of go through this process and understand a little bit because if I just fraud you free hardware wallets and tell you, like, figure it out If you haven't done any Bitcoin transaction in your life before, that's just not Yeah. You gotta get comfortable with it. Like, no one expects to listen to driving podcasts and then know how to drive. Like, you actually have to get behind the wheel of a car

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and and practice driving before you become competent with driving.

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But for some reason with Bitcoin, people think like, oh, you can just listen to podcasts or read books or whatever, and then you'll figure out, like, you have to actually use the tools.

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And I wanna be clear here.

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Like, I understand why people buy MSTR,

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and I I think it's for two reasons. I think one is just because of comfort. They're used to using their brokerage account.

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But I I I think the main reason people

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the the way people should think about MSTR or at least how I think about MSTR is you're adding risk to your portfolio.

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You're adding risk to your investment in order to try and outperform Bitcoin.

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And to me, that's a completely reasonable

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gamble or bet that you're making.

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What I have issue with is people basically

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offering it up as,

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a security

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alternative

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versus self custody, which I think self custody is actually way more accessible than people ever realize.

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And I think the concerns for the average person over single SIG are probably

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drummed up way too high.

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I mean, if you look at, like, actual

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numbers on hardware wallet loss,

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the the great major like, there's very few cases that we've seen of theft.

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The majority of issues that people have is people making mistake

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and not securing their backup properly. So if you actually secure those seed words

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offline and ideally put them in steel,

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99%

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of situations,

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those funds will remain yours, and they'll be very hard to seize. Like, someone will have to actually come into your house and compel you to hand them over.

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Yeah. Most of the risk is, is, let's say, the social engineering,

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attacks,

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but it's very unlikely to lose it if you're doing

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even just single key. Right. If you're doing it well,

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you're generally very secure. Right.

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You need to follow general rules. Right. Like just don't trust people. But then they could as easily convince you to give them the password to your Coinbase account or whatever. Right? Right.

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Yeah. When you when you say social engineering, it's like, if someone emails you and pretends to be from Ledger and tells you to enter your seed words

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onto a web page,

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they can take your money.

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Don't do that. Like, own

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Yeah. You have to which is a shame. Careful about Yeah. Just don't trust people in general. Like, just don't trust emails or

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text messages. Like, Don't trust them. Even if it looks official,

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just use common sense. If it asks you for your seed or tries to create any urgency,

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then it's most likely scam.

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Like, go on dinner and wait a few days, see if there is really people that you trust that are saying that, okay, there is really an issue. But

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don't

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give in to the panic. Right? So what scammers will try to do most is try to make you panic because when you panic, you make mistakes.

302
00:25:35.090 --> 00:25:36.390
Yeah. Take a deep breath.

303
00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:39.815
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Take a deep breath.

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Don't stress about it.

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Just try to figure things out, but calmly.

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Yeah. Yeah. And and specifically, like, the beauty of hardware wallets is it allows you to have this very easy recommendation,

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which is if

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if if you're using a hardware wallet, only enter your seed words, your backup words

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directly into the hardware wallet. 99% of situations that protects you, the scammers are tech are usually trying to get you to enter into a web page, reply to an

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email, put it into a Telegram chat or something like that.

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The whole reason the hardware wallet exists is because it's supposed to be where your

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your private keys are held instead of on the computer. So you wanna put it you wanna put it only into your hardware wallet. With the one exception being, the beauty of seed backups and them being interoperable

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is if Bitcoin Keeper disappears or if Coldcard disappears or if Ledger disappears,

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you can then go and recover your funds in another wallet. And in that situation, you might be entering in a spiral on your own accord or whatever. That's one of the coolest parts

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about seed phrases.

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Now back to multisig,

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the other piece of multisig that is interesting to me

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so so for me, like, when I do recommendations to people, it's like, start with single sig, get comfortable with single sig. It's

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the best it's great for 99%

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of users and 99% of threat models. And when I say threat models, I'm saying, who are you trying to protect yourself against? You have to threat model this is personal responsibility, which makes it everything a little bit more difficult. But who are you trying to protect yourself against? Who might try and take your Bitcoin from you? And what situations are you trying to protect against?

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So I like single sig, and I really like single sig with the passphrase.

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Adds a little bit more complexity of it. Make sure you actually record your pass raise somewhere. I did and somewhere different than your seed because your memory, you can get hit in the head. You can lose your memory.

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That becomes an issue as well. Don't try and memorize things.

324
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Mhmm. Except for short peers if you're, like, crossing a port or something.

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Multi sig, I really like for organizations. I really like for public figures.

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I think specifically geographically distributed multi sig. But the other piece of multi sig that's really interesting to me as a parent

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is inheritance.

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So how are you guys

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because single sig inheritance

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can be quite simple. Right? You can tell your heirs

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where your seed phrase is.

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But the Yeah. But then they know where your seed phrase is. So that's absolutely The the problem is now they've entered your threat model.

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00:28:21.159 --> 00:28:24.940
Right? And the problem is not only can they take your funds, but they could be compelled

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to give the funds away. Right? So it's not an ideal situation.

335
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Like, you you can completely trust maybe you can completely trust the error,

336
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but

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they could be fooled or they could be tricked or they could be compelled as well. Like, they don't have to necessarily be malicious themselves. So how do you guys handle inheritance with the multisig?

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Yeah. So our inheritance solution is basically mostly based on miniscript.

339
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Right? So miniscript is this cool programming language, let's say, for Bitcoin, which allows you to do certain,

340
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conditions on the spending, which are more complicated than just a simple multisig.

341
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Specifically, it lets you use, what we're using most is time locks for keys.

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So it lets you say, okay. We have these, let's say these two or three wallet,

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which is for now, it just has,

344
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three keys and you need two of them to sign.

345
00:29:20.330 --> 00:29:28.235
But let's say one year from now, it will become a two out of four wallets. So another key will be activated. Right now, this key cannot sign anything,

346
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but in one year, it will be part of the quorum.

347
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Or let's say that's what we call an inheritance team keeper.

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Then you have an emergency key option where it the the new key that will be activated is basically a single spender.

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So instead of having a two out of four, you'll be you'll have your two out of three normally, and then the extra key can spend,

350
00:29:50.655 --> 00:29:52.655
alone. Right? So let's say you lost two

351
00:29:53.215 --> 00:29:55.235
let's say you lost all your keys in the multisig

352
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for some reason, you can still recover even in that case.

353
00:29:59.375 --> 00:30:07.740
So we give options of basically the the idea is a key that has delayed activation that when you give it out to someone, so let's say you give it to your air,

354
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they cannot do anything without it right now. But then if some time passes, you don't delay you don't move the the time delay,

355
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.620
then it will be activated and they can spend.

356
00:30:20.565 --> 00:30:21.205
So in that

357
00:30:21.685 --> 00:30:26.025
so let's walk through that model, like, in practice. Right? So you have the two of three.

358
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You have the two of three,

359
00:30:30.485 --> 00:30:35.360
and then the air you're giving the air the fourth key that is activating later,

360
00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:40.320
but they still need a they they still need a second key to sign. Is Keeper holding

361
00:30:40.940 --> 00:30:43.360
a key in that situation? How does that work?

362
00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:46.815
No. So Keeper don't doesn't hold a key.

363
00:30:47.375 --> 00:30:55.075
So you can plan your inheritance in a way that, okay, you give one key or they know where one key is and they have the other key. Right.

364
00:30:56.014 --> 00:31:00.630
Or you could eventually we want to have a bit more spending conditions there so you can do

365
00:31:01.110 --> 00:31:03.690
more things or have more inheritance keys.

366
00:31:04.310 --> 00:31:05.210
So let's say

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you

368
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have, let's say you have two out of three, but then you give two inheritance keys to two of your child, let's say.

369
00:31:14.774 --> 00:31:32.169
So right now, what you can do, for example, is just give them either an emergency key or let them know where one of your keys are. And then these Right. Cannot spend right now, but can within a year. So I yeah. So I guess in practice, you're giving them two keys ahead of time, but one of them is inert or one of those keys isn't activated

370
00:31:32.630 --> 00:31:37.850
until the time line. Yeah. That's yeah. Exactly. So that's if you're using get two auto free. Yes.

371
00:31:39.350 --> 00:31:46.295
Right. So I me let's say I'm setting it up. I'm setting it up. I'm creating I'm I'm linking three keys to the app.

372
00:31:47.475 --> 00:31:50.535
The fourth key is generated by the app, presumably.

373
00:31:51.075 --> 00:32:02.420
Right? Or No. But you can only also the fourth key. Right? So that Okay. The fourth key can be at your hardware vault or it can be the app, the keeper app on the other on the Ares phone, for example,

374
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.900
but you import that key. Basically, you either scan it, you

375
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use USB, whatever, but you add this fourth key when you create a wallet. Got it. So I create so I create the wallet with with four hardware wallets, let's say.

376
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And I'm giving two to my error,

377
00:32:19.875 --> 00:32:21.895
and then I'm hiding

378
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or I'm securing

379
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the three I have

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00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:36.680
somewhere else. And then if once this time lock expires and how does is that a is that time lock how is that time lock set up? Is that time lock based on,

381
00:32:37.060 --> 00:32:38.100
like, the chain? Or

382
00:32:39.634 --> 00:32:40.134
Yeah.

383
00:32:40.514 --> 00:32:58.830
So it's, it's using well, we started with, block height. Now we moved to time stamps. But, yes, it's on chain. Right? So everything is secured on chain. Mini script is, is a programming for the Bitcoin script language, and everything that we do is happening on chain. So keep our Was it the time? Paying.

384
00:32:59.289 --> 00:32:59.789
Yeah.

385
00:33:00.490 --> 00:33:02.590
Mhmm. So it's the time since last transaction?

386
00:33:04.570 --> 00:33:05.289
So it's,

387
00:33:06.010 --> 00:33:08.350
basically the median time after,

388
00:33:08.650 --> 00:33:11.014
what is it, the 11 blocks, basically?

389
00:33:12.355 --> 00:33:26.390
No. But since my last transaction, like, how does that time lock work? Is it, like, a year after my last transaction? You you create a wallet. So we use an absolute time lock. So okay. So in Bitcoin, there are two types of time locks. Right? There are absolute time locks, which,

390
00:33:26.850 --> 00:33:33.490
are set up to a specific date, a specific block height, and there are relative time locks, which start on the,

391
00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:34.870
when a transaction

392
00:33:35.330 --> 00:33:38.149
is received. They are basically UTXO specific.

393
00:33:38.765 --> 00:33:48.785
So what Keeper does, it uses the absolute time locks, which, let you set the date in the future. So let's say we want to set in two years. So it's in two years since the work was created.

394
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Is there

395
00:33:51.085 --> 00:33:53.665
a limit on how far in the future you can set it?

396
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.340
No. For absolute time locks, not really.

397
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.380
You can set up whatever you want. For the,

398
00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:02.900
relative time locks, there is, there is a significant,

399
00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:04.400
limitation of,

400
00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:07.940
one point, one point three, one point four years.

401
00:34:08.755 --> 00:34:09.815
So is there

402
00:34:12.275 --> 00:34:19.234
is there a trade off there in terms of picking how like, what do you have a recommendation for how long people should

403
00:34:19.875 --> 00:34:22.535
let's let's use me as an example again.

404
00:34:22.915 --> 00:34:25.980
Like, how, like, how long should the time lock be?

405
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:30.460
I've assume presumably, if I make it longer, if I make it, like, twenty years in the future

406
00:34:30.839 --> 00:34:31.980
and I die tomorrow

407
00:34:33.240 --> 00:34:37.500
Yeah. They'll wait for me to use that key, so that's not a good idea.

408
00:34:37.815 --> 00:34:39.175
But also making it,

409
00:34:40.615 --> 00:34:45.915
like, one month is also too short because you have in order to renew that, you have to make an on chain transaction.

410
00:34:46.295 --> 00:34:53.275
You don't want to make an on chain transaction once a month. Right? Oh, is that all I have to do? I don't have to create a new wallet to reset the time lock?

411
00:34:53.680 --> 00:35:05.300
Yeah. So you create a new wallet. It's with the same key. So it's I mean, it's very easy to the the app basically generates the new wallet for you. You don't have to do much, but you need to update the backup,

412
00:35:06.335 --> 00:35:10.515
and you need to, make a transaction from the old wallet to the new wallet.

413
00:35:11.375 --> 00:35:21.474
Got it. Could the like, the app is, like, automating that process for me. But in practice Yeah. The app tries to automate as much as possible. Yeah. If I make it a five year time lock and we're at four and a half years,

414
00:35:22.070 --> 00:35:23.530
then I'm going into the app.

415
00:35:24.150 --> 00:35:31.530
And in the background, what's happening is a new wallet is being created that's resetting the time lock. But the the user doesn't really

416
00:35:33.270 --> 00:35:34.790
but it's using the same key. So

417
00:35:35.350 --> 00:35:37.365
yeah. Go on. It uses the same keys.

418
00:35:38.485 --> 00:35:47.705
It uses the it just updates to the preference. So let's say you you can choose what the new time loop that you want, whatever it's, another year, five years, whatever.

419
00:35:48.485 --> 00:35:53.970
And then it just creates that new wallet. But you don't have to add keys again or choose the keys or choose anything.

420
00:35:55.150 --> 00:36:03.170
But you said I have to update my backup. What am I updating there? I'm I still have the same seed words for the same hardware wallets. What backup am I updating?

421
00:36:04.075 --> 00:36:06.955
Yeah. So what is getting updated is mostly the,

422
00:36:07.435 --> 00:36:09.375
the times. Right? So the

423
00:36:09.675 --> 00:36:24.299
backup in this case, in the case of manuscript, it contains also the, the specific time that you chose, right, the specific time stamp that you chose. So let's say you have a key that is activated in two years. That time stamp of two years is also going to appear in your backup.

424
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:35.435
That's because that's needed to generate the address because it's a part of the, of the Bitcoin script. Right? So the Bitcoin script is getting, let's say, translated into an address,

425
00:36:36.215 --> 00:36:38.635
which you can also derive from the backup.

426
00:36:39.415 --> 00:36:41.355
And how does the user keep that backup?

427
00:36:42.535 --> 00:36:49.690
Yeah. So that's with, with, how you would secure the script. Alright? That's another Yeah. Big topic in in Multisig, let's say.

428
00:36:50.230 --> 00:36:54.170
Yeah. So how do how do how do you handle that in the in the app?

429
00:36:55.030 --> 00:36:58.310
Yeah. So first of all, we allow the user to export it as,

430
00:36:58.955 --> 00:37:00.735
either as a PDF or

431
00:37:01.515 --> 00:37:06.415
as a file or however they want so they can export it and save it themselves. So we recommend

432
00:37:07.035 --> 00:37:09.775
generally to save it with each one of the keys.

433
00:37:10.555 --> 00:37:11.935
We also let you

434
00:37:13.150 --> 00:37:13.870
save it,

435
00:37:14.430 --> 00:37:15.550
encrypted to,

436
00:37:16.750 --> 00:37:17.650
to the,

437
00:37:18.670 --> 00:37:25.730
iCloud or Google Drive, whatever your iOS or Android, but you can basically enter a password for it and it will save it automatically,

438
00:37:27.150 --> 00:37:28.290
to to the cloud.

439
00:37:30.005 --> 00:37:35.545
And then we also have an option to save it with with us, with Keeper. So it's also encrypted.

440
00:37:36.645 --> 00:37:45.609
It we encrypt it with the app recovery key. So that's like your master seed. And then when you enter and try to recover the app, everything will load in automatically.

441
00:37:46.230 --> 00:37:46.970
Got it.

442
00:37:48.950 --> 00:37:51.930
I was laughing because we have Carlos in the comments.

443
00:37:52.230 --> 00:37:57.964
Yeah. I I I didn't think it's saying sometimes dispatch is just Odell's one on one user session with the dev.

444
00:37:58.685 --> 00:38:00.625
I mean, I hope you guys find that helpful.

445
00:38:01.165 --> 00:38:02.464
It's kinda my style.

446
00:38:03.085 --> 00:38:03.484
I,

447
00:38:04.845 --> 00:38:06.204
so when you say that so the

448
00:38:06.940 --> 00:38:17.280
I mean, that backup is a privacy issue. It's not a security issue. Right? So if somebody gets access to that backup, they they know your balance and they know your transaction history, but they don't they can't actually spend your funds.

449
00:38:17.740 --> 00:38:21.525
Exactly. Yeah. They cannot spend anything, but they can know your your balance.

450
00:38:21.924 --> 00:38:25.145
So, yeah, you should generally protect it, but it's not,

451
00:38:25.684 --> 00:38:27.545
as critical as your keys.

452
00:38:28.164 --> 00:38:32.424
So you can I mean, so you take that PDF and you print out that PDF,

453
00:38:32.885 --> 00:38:34.825
and then you can just store that PDF,

454
00:38:36.830 --> 00:38:38.370
ideally in multiple places?

455
00:38:38.870 --> 00:38:39.370
Mhmm.

456
00:38:39.870 --> 00:38:46.370
Yeah. And is it that PDF has a QR code on it? Is that what it is? So Yeah. So it has you don't have to retype it. Basically.

457
00:38:46.830 --> 00:38:48.530
So you can have both options.

458
00:38:49.355 --> 00:38:55.994
It doesn't scan the QR for some reason. You can I mean, typing manually would be a nightmare, but if your funds depend on it

459
00:38:57.115 --> 00:38:58.174
You'll figure it out?

460
00:38:59.994 --> 00:39:03.135
The and so that PDF backup means that

461
00:39:03.869 --> 00:39:06.529
if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper disappears,

462
00:39:06.910 --> 00:39:10.210
you'll be able to still get access to the funds. Right?

463
00:39:10.670 --> 00:39:15.650
Yeah. Exactly. So you don't have to trust us. Everything is compatible with the standards.

464
00:39:16.325 --> 00:39:19.944
So if for some reason Bitcoin Keeper is not available

465
00:39:20.244 --> 00:39:21.545
and the code disappears

466
00:39:21.845 --> 00:39:23.545
from GitHub for some reason,

467
00:39:24.005 --> 00:39:27.785
then you can still recover on other services, on other wallets.

468
00:39:28.820 --> 00:39:30.360
Got it. That's incredibly important.

469
00:39:31.060 --> 00:39:31.560
So

470
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:35.640
all of this sounds awesome.

471
00:39:36.740 --> 00:39:37.880
It sounds like

472
00:39:38.180 --> 00:39:39.800
you guys have gone through painstaking

473
00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:42.285
lengths to not require trust,

474
00:39:44.204 --> 00:39:47.105
in actual Bitcoin Keeper team and the wallet,

475
00:39:48.125 --> 00:39:49.025
in the app.

476
00:39:49.724 --> 00:39:50.224
Historically,

477
00:39:51.885 --> 00:39:53.265
when that's been the case,

478
00:39:56.010 --> 00:39:57.870
it's hard to, you know, necessarily,

479
00:39:58.410 --> 00:40:00.350
you know, make money off of

480
00:40:00.650 --> 00:40:01.390
the project.

481
00:40:01.930 --> 00:40:03.950
And you guys are a company with salaries.

482
00:40:05.450 --> 00:40:08.750
How do you how does Bitcoin Keeper make money?

483
00:40:10.185 --> 00:40:12.765
Yeah. So we're trying to offer the

484
00:40:13.225 --> 00:40:21.645
the app as, let's say, a tier model, a subscription model. So we have the free tier where we offer a lot. We offer you the

485
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:27.099
most of the options. So the multi sig, the single key, hard or wallet, integration, everything.

486
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:33.260
What we offer on the higher tiers are more backup options. So, like, more automated backups,

487
00:40:33.640 --> 00:40:34.940
with us, for example.

488
00:40:35.885 --> 00:40:39.025
We offer the mini script options on the paid tier,

489
00:40:39.565 --> 00:40:44.145
and, yeah, we offer certain features. We offer a server key option also.

490
00:40:45.565 --> 00:40:50.780
So we offer most of the features also already on the free tier, but some,

491
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:55.820
stuff for, let's say, for backup and comfort and, like,

492
00:40:56.440 --> 00:40:59.340
inheritance, we offer on the on the higher tiers.

493
00:41:00.600 --> 00:41:01.100
So,

494
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:04.300
what what does that pricing look like?

495
00:41:05.385 --> 00:41:07.245
So it's, for the

496
00:41:07.865 --> 00:41:08.985
first year, it's,

497
00:41:09.625 --> 00:41:13.805
$15 a month, and then the second year is 30 a month.

498
00:41:14.185 --> 00:41:19.165
And then we have, basically a full handholding service called Keeper Private

499
00:41:19.790 --> 00:41:20.690
where we offer

500
00:41:22.430 --> 00:41:24.350
$2,000

501
00:41:24.350 --> 00:41:26.770
where it's basically you have a kid, you have handholding,

502
00:41:27.070 --> 00:41:28.210
you have everything.

503
00:41:29.150 --> 00:41:30.770
Is that per that's per year?

504
00:41:31.775 --> 00:41:36.835
Yeah. That's per year. That's per year. The the ones that I said yeah. The 2,000 is is per year. Sorry.

505
00:41:37.775 --> 00:41:45.395
But the other ones were per month. So inheritance is inheritance is under if you wanna use the inheritance features, you got you have to pay $30 a month.

506
00:41:46.150 --> 00:41:50.890
Yeah. You have the yearly plan for, what, for 300 and 150.

507
00:41:51.430 --> 00:41:55.290
But, yeah, you could have to to pay the yearly, the monthly fee, whatever.

508
00:41:56.470 --> 00:41:57.210
Got it.

509
00:41:59.385 --> 00:42:01.325
Cool. I mean, that makes sense to me.

510
00:42:01.705 --> 00:42:05.725
It's an ethical way to monetize. Do you have any you said other backup options.

511
00:42:06.105 --> 00:42:10.125
Does that include holding a key or something like that? Like, how is that handled?

512
00:42:10.905 --> 00:42:16.420
Yeah. So we offer the server key option where we have, basically, a basically a server key,

513
00:42:16.799 --> 00:42:19.539
a key that is on a server, which you can

514
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:26.000
choose spending conditions for. So let's say not spend more than $1,000

515
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:26.900
in a month

516
00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:28.740
or not sign

517
00:42:29.105 --> 00:42:29.605
for,

518
00:42:30.305 --> 00:42:34.565
or sign with a delay of one week or one month, two weeks, whatever.

519
00:42:35.184 --> 00:42:37.684
But, basically, you have these options as well.

520
00:42:38.865 --> 00:42:41.924
Got it. And that's part of the that's part of the paid tier?

521
00:42:42.704 --> 00:42:45.140
Yep. Yeah. That's on the paid tier.

522
00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:46.500
Got it.

523
00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:48.660
Cool.

524
00:42:49.040 --> 00:42:51.859
Carlos is asking how big is the Bitcoin keeper team?

525
00:42:52.640 --> 00:42:54.980
Yeah. So it's, six people, you could say.

526
00:42:55.615 --> 00:42:57.635
Okay. Nice small lean team.

527
00:42:59.215 --> 00:43:00.035
What other

528
00:43:00.975 --> 00:43:03.875
do you have is there any other interesting features that

529
00:43:04.575 --> 00:43:07.955
would compel someone to use Bitcoin Keeper over the alternatives?

530
00:43:09.390 --> 00:43:12.690
Yeah. I think the manuscript options are very strong

531
00:43:12.990 --> 00:43:13.730
and unique,

532
00:43:14.510 --> 00:43:20.930
option that we offer so that the user is completely in control, doesn't have to trust us for for backups, for inheritance,

533
00:43:21.390 --> 00:43:23.490
but can do everything with their own keys.

534
00:43:25.775 --> 00:43:26.275
Besides

535
00:43:26.654 --> 00:43:27.154
these,

536
00:43:27.535 --> 00:43:29.234
we try we also offer,

537
00:43:29.694 --> 00:43:31.214
inheritance documents. So,

538
00:43:31.615 --> 00:43:33.315
when you try to plan your inheritance,

539
00:43:33.855 --> 00:43:39.450
you want to leave something to the let's say, to your attorney or to your heirs,

540
00:43:40.010 --> 00:43:47.230
some set of instructions or an explanation. So we offer that as well, like some certain templates that help you plan that.

541
00:43:50.329 --> 00:43:51.550
Besides these,

542
00:43:52.410 --> 00:43:59.295
nothing on the top of my head. But there are a lot of small features all around the app that, that try to make it as easy as possible.

543
00:44:00.075 --> 00:44:05.375
You recently added Tethr support. How does what does that look like? How do you think the user is using that?

544
00:44:06.155 --> 00:44:07.994
Yeah. So with Tethr, we use,

545
00:44:08.555 --> 00:44:15.170
basically a service that is called gas free, which means that you can use, Tether both as the,

546
00:44:16.130 --> 00:44:19.830
as the currency and the fee option. So you don't need to

547
00:44:20.130 --> 00:44:22.710
hold any shit coins in order to use Tether.

548
00:44:23.585 --> 00:44:28.164
This aims mostly for people who who are interested to use Tether

549
00:44:28.704 --> 00:44:32.645
and also want to use Bitcoin, but don't really care much about,

550
00:44:33.025 --> 00:44:46.590
more shit coins or stuff like that. Just want to have some stability with the dollar, but still use Bitcoin for for most of the things. Right? So kind of have a balance between there. So along with all their other wallets on

551
00:44:47.450 --> 00:44:52.750
Keeper, there's also they would also have, I guess, like, a a Tether single sig wallet. Right?

552
00:44:53.055 --> 00:44:53.714
Yeah. Exactly.

553
00:44:54.175 --> 00:44:59.714
Exactly. So you just have another wallet on the list, which is your Tether wallet if you choose to create it.

554
00:45:00.734 --> 00:45:02.675
Yeah. And you can send, you can receive.

555
00:45:03.855 --> 00:45:08.035
Yeah. That's that's it. It just tries to make things easier for for people.

556
00:45:14.810 --> 00:45:15.790
I should just

557
00:45:16.250 --> 00:45:18.590
I'm addicted to reading live chat.

558
00:45:19.609 --> 00:45:20.109
The

559
00:45:21.615 --> 00:45:22.575
Tether. So how

560
00:45:23.935 --> 00:45:36.515
is the Tether the Tether wallet is a is that another BIP 85 child seed? Like, you're just keeping your main hot wallet seed and that covers that as well, or how does that work? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's another BIP 85 child seed.

561
00:45:37.040 --> 00:45:44.580
So the user's just keeping one seat. It's covering their Bitcoin wallet. It's cover covering their Tether as many Bitcoin wallets as they want and their Tether wallet.

562
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:49.300
How does it work? So Tether's on multiple different chains.

563
00:45:50.865 --> 00:45:55.205
Is this, like, cross chain compatible? Can you pay a Tether invoice on

564
00:45:56.065 --> 00:45:59.605
Tron is the most popular and then Solana and ETH.

565
00:45:59.985 --> 00:46:03.205
Does it matter which chain you're paying to or receiving from?

566
00:46:03.690 --> 00:46:09.310
Yeah. So right now, we started only on Tron because this is where, like, 50 something percent of FUSDTs.

567
00:46:10.490 --> 00:46:16.510
We want to add if, if this feature becomes popular, if you see enough demand, we'll add more chains,

568
00:46:16.970 --> 00:46:22.095
so you don't have to worry about which, chain you want to send to or receive from.

569
00:46:22.714 --> 00:46:27.934
Also, very important, we want to simplify the whole experience so you can pay everything with the USDT

570
00:46:28.395 --> 00:46:34.255
or the fees. So you don't have to think about the the sheet coins or the underlying chain where it's on.

571
00:46:35.150 --> 00:46:38.370
But, yeah, we want to to support whatever the users will need.

572
00:46:39.470 --> 00:46:41.650
Yeah. I mean, I think as Americans,

573
00:46:44.670 --> 00:46:47.010
they don't see the value in Tether support.

574
00:46:47.710 --> 00:46:48.210
Mhmm.

575
00:46:48.990 --> 00:46:51.545
I mean, I've never I've never used Tether.

576
00:46:54.244 --> 00:46:56.825
But, like, I I mean, I did a trip to Argentina,

577
00:46:58.005 --> 00:47:02.105
and Argentina is a failing currency, and it's very hard to access dollars.

578
00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:07.770
And they have a thriving black market currency market there.

579
00:47:08.550 --> 00:47:10.330
And we went to one of the brokers,

580
00:47:11.510 --> 00:47:15.930
and 98% of their transactions was specifically Tether on Tron.

581
00:47:16.785 --> 00:47:23.204
So that that economy has effectively dollarized from the bottom up into Tether on Tron.

582
00:47:23.505 --> 00:47:25.045
And what we see is,

583
00:47:26.305 --> 00:47:30.645
in practice, the most popular self custody wallet in the world is Trust Wallet by Binance,

584
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:33.480
which is a horrible wallet.

585
00:47:34.099 --> 00:47:44.200
It's a really bad wallet. And but the reason people mainly use it is because it has Tether support, and it has really bad Bitcoin support. So to have a wallet that has good Bitcoin support,

586
00:47:44.635 --> 00:47:47.295
a really good Bitcoin support, and then also has

587
00:47:47.835 --> 00:47:54.015
usable Tether support, I feel like is a interesting trade off balance that, a lot of international users will,

588
00:47:55.275 --> 00:47:56.095
flock to.

589
00:47:56.715 --> 00:47:59.855
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely I know that the American market I mean,

590
00:48:00.290 --> 00:48:05.270
Americans have great access to the US dollar. Right. I get why don't need tether,

591
00:48:05.570 --> 00:48:09.510
but not everyone has the same access to US dollars. Right.

592
00:48:09.970 --> 00:48:17.795
Which is still compared to many other currencies. This is the most one of the most stable currencies in the world. Right? And definitely the most liquid.

593
00:48:18.335 --> 00:48:22.995
So it's gonna make sense that in many regions, people will need some dollars. Right?

594
00:48:24.015 --> 00:48:25.535
I definitely know that Bitcoin

595
00:48:26.420 --> 00:48:33.960
well, we all want hyper Bitcoinizations, but it's not gonna happen today. It's not gonna happen tomorrow. There's there needs to be some gradual transfer,

596
00:48:34.900 --> 00:48:36.280
from dollar to Bitcoin.

597
00:48:36.980 --> 00:48:43.164
And people who are using currencies which are way worse than the dollar would definitely need this dollar in the meantime.

598
00:48:44.025 --> 00:48:45.404
Right. And so,

599
00:48:46.025 --> 00:48:46.845
do you also,

600
00:48:48.984 --> 00:48:49.805
do you also

601
00:48:50.505 --> 00:48:51.484
offer swaps

602
00:48:51.900 --> 00:48:56.640
between the two? Like, can I if I'm in app, can you easily switch between Tether and Bitcoin?

603
00:48:57.180 --> 00:49:01.039
Yeah. That's coming in the next version. So we'll offer the option to swap easily.

604
00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:06.559
So if you want to move between them, that should be very easy to win the next version.

605
00:49:07.255 --> 00:49:08.075
Got it.

606
00:49:08.695 --> 00:49:11.035
I mean, that that's the hope. Right? I think,

607
00:49:12.935 --> 00:49:21.035
if you wanna see more people use Bitcoin, then having good Bitcoin wallets that offer Tether support is that they come in and start using it for Tether.

608
00:49:22.040 --> 00:49:23.740
And then if they can easily

609
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:26.380
switch into Bitcoin for their long term savings,

610
00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:28.540
then they'll do that as well.

611
00:49:29.640 --> 00:49:31.580
How do you think about I

612
00:49:32.040 --> 00:49:35.260
does do you guys support Lightning, and how do you think about Lightning?

613
00:49:36.115 --> 00:49:38.375
No. So right now, we don't support lightning.

614
00:49:39.475 --> 00:49:43.415
The reason is basically that we're focused more on long term cold storage,

615
00:49:44.275 --> 00:49:46.855
like holding savings. And then

616
00:49:47.315 --> 00:49:52.930
people just so and all the iteration of the app, which was Hexa Wallet did have lightning support,

617
00:49:53.310 --> 00:50:00.130
but they kind of realized that people want some separation between the money that they're spending and the money that they're saving.

618
00:50:00.910 --> 00:50:06.765
Right? So Keeper is starting to be more of a savings up and not so much the spending up.

619
00:50:07.385 --> 00:50:11.885
Maybe in the future, we'll we'll consider adding it. But right now, we we're not,

620
00:50:12.345 --> 00:50:13.244
adding Lightning.

621
00:50:14.310 --> 00:50:15.670
That makes sense to me.

622
00:50:16.310 --> 00:50:18.250
It's also just it's hard to do

623
00:50:19.190 --> 00:50:21.850
it's hard to do self custody Lightning,

624
00:50:22.550 --> 00:50:24.410
in a easy UX way.

625
00:50:27.224 --> 00:50:27.704
Have you

626
00:50:28.424 --> 00:50:31.805
and so, like, it makes sense to me to, like, have a focus and

627
00:50:33.944 --> 00:50:39.644
a a differentiation between apps. Right? So, like, the the user can download Phoenix. They can download Zeus.

628
00:50:40.050 --> 00:50:41.970
They can use that for their lightning wallet,

629
00:50:42.530 --> 00:50:45.350
and then they can use Bitcoin Keeper for,

630
00:50:46.930 --> 00:50:49.670
on chain. And I think that's a completely reasonable

631
00:50:50.690 --> 00:50:52.550
balance for users to make.

632
00:50:53.090 --> 00:50:53.990
And then each

633
00:50:54.414 --> 00:51:01.234
each respective app can focus on their strengths rather than try and put it all into one app. Have you I mean, while I have you here,

634
00:51:02.734 --> 00:51:06.835
you're one of the more interesting technical minds in Bitcoin. Have you explored,

635
00:51:08.575 --> 00:51:09.075
the

636
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:10.380
different

637
00:51:11.560 --> 00:51:13.420
concepts around trying to make,

638
00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:20.619
self custody lightning easier, whether that's, quote, unquote, self custody lightning easier, whether that's Spark from LightSpark or Arc?

639
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:22.780
Have you looked into that at all?

640
00:51:23.214 --> 00:51:25.954
I really saw all the time I've focused

641
00:51:26.734 --> 00:51:28.974
ever since Specter, I've focused on,

642
00:51:29.454 --> 00:51:33.795
self custody more for the long term. Right? So savings, large funds.

643
00:51:34.095 --> 00:51:36.840
And I haven't really used Lightning so much,

644
00:51:37.640 --> 00:51:38.280
from the,

645
00:51:38.680 --> 00:51:41.260
from work perspective, right, from development perspective.

646
00:51:41.800 --> 00:51:46.060
So, no, I don't know these solutions enough to to talk about them.

647
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:47.660
Got it.

648
00:51:53.055 --> 00:51:57.075
Fair enough. I mean, yeah, I've I've played around with Wallace Satoshi's

649
00:51:59.455 --> 00:52:01.315
I've played around with Wallace Satoshi's

650
00:52:01.695 --> 00:52:03.555
beta, which they're using Spark,

651
00:52:06.470 --> 00:52:11.849
which is, I guess, a fork of Mercury layer, which is like a swap chain.

652
00:52:13.030 --> 00:52:15.450
I haven't, like, really looked into the,

653
00:52:16.150 --> 00:52:17.290
like, deep technical

654
00:52:17.670 --> 00:52:18.970
details behind it.

655
00:52:19.375 --> 00:52:21.475
But, like, UX wise, it works really well.

656
00:52:21.775 --> 00:52:23.075
Trust model wise,

657
00:52:24.095 --> 00:52:25.875
it's, like, not quite self custody,

658
00:52:26.895 --> 00:52:32.995
but maybe it's good enough for people. Maybe it's good enough for regulators, which is really the key thing I think they're trying to get around.

659
00:52:33.700 --> 00:52:42.760
Yeah. For people who think if you I mean, lightning is not really for for storing your life savings. Right? Right. So it's really not the end of the world,

660
00:52:43.220 --> 00:52:45.320
to to have some trust there.

661
00:52:46.685 --> 00:52:50.705
For for small funds, like, the the trust model can be a bit different.

662
00:52:52.765 --> 00:52:53.265
Yeah.

663
00:52:54.205 --> 00:53:00.545
And I think it's just a lot of it is just trying to get around KYC regulation. And if it's quote unquote self custody enough,

664
00:53:01.410 --> 00:53:03.349
for regulators, then maybe

665
00:53:04.690 --> 00:53:05.829
maybe it makes sense.

666
00:53:07.089 --> 00:53:13.910
But I will say from a from a UX point of view, it worked it worked quite well. And from my understanding of the trust model is basically,

667
00:53:15.545 --> 00:53:19.484
you're trusting that LightSpark isn't gonna act maliciously. If they wanted to act maliciously,

668
00:53:20.025 --> 00:53:23.244
they could be party to the swaps and then could spend your funds.

669
00:53:25.224 --> 00:53:25.964
Okay. Awesome.

670
00:53:26.680 --> 00:53:31.420
I mean, Ben, while I have you here as well, like, so what are your current thoughts on

671
00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:34.380
the current state of Bitcoin?

672
00:53:35.640 --> 00:53:37.900
Are you optimistic about where we're at?

673
00:53:39.425 --> 00:53:44.805
The state of self custody versus, like, the paper Bitcoin products? How do you think about all of that?

674
00:53:46.065 --> 00:53:48.005
Yeah. I mean, things definitely

675
00:53:48.305 --> 00:53:56.610
feel quite good right now very near the whole the all time high. Right? So there is quite a good feeling all around the the space.

676
00:53:57.710 --> 00:54:00.210
But, yeah, generally, everything is going towards,

677
00:54:00.830 --> 00:54:01.890
the financialization

678
00:54:02.430 --> 00:54:05.570
of Bitcoin. Right? It's going to towards the paper Bitcoin

679
00:54:05.925 --> 00:54:09.065
and not as much towards the, self custody,

680
00:54:09.445 --> 00:54:09.945
hardcore

681
00:54:10.325 --> 00:54:10.825
Bitcoiners

682
00:54:11.285 --> 00:54:12.965
that that we used to have back,

683
00:54:13.605 --> 00:54:14.745
a few years ago.

684
00:54:15.765 --> 00:54:17.625
So yeah. I mean, it's

685
00:54:18.210 --> 00:54:25.910
it's kind of a good and a bad. Right? We we all knew that Bitcoin is going way higher. We all knew that Bitcoin is is going to to succeed,

686
00:54:26.690 --> 00:54:27.990
but it's kind of

687
00:54:29.490 --> 00:54:32.869
losing some of the cultural aspects that it used to have.

688
00:54:34.385 --> 00:54:35.525
Yeah. I mean, I think

689
00:54:35.984 --> 00:54:41.765
that was probably always gonna happen. I think this is, like, the path of Bitcoin adoption that was most likely.

690
00:54:44.464 --> 00:54:46.244
I mean, I and I yeah.

691
00:54:46.850 --> 00:54:52.150
Go on. No. It it's not that it doesn't make sense. Like, it was kind of expected, but it's still,

692
00:54:53.090 --> 00:54:58.790
it's not the best to see how how things are happening and going towards all the paper Bitcoin

693
00:54:59.410 --> 00:55:00.290
and not,

694
00:55:00.610 --> 00:55:03.535
people just stopping to care about sort of custody.

695
00:55:04.394 --> 00:55:06.734
It's it's a bit risky overall eventually.

696
00:55:07.835 --> 00:55:13.535
But, yeah, I mean, we cannot really stop that. The most that we can do, I guess, is to try and educate people.

697
00:55:16.950 --> 00:55:25.370
Yeah. Fair enough. I mean, I think I think look. People are gonna use Bitcoin in different ways. You might not agree with all the people might not agree with all the ways they use Bitcoin.

698
00:55:26.470 --> 00:55:28.010
That's the whole point of Bitcoin.

699
00:55:29.375 --> 00:55:38.435
I think that the bullish the the bullish takeaway is that we have more people than ever using Bitcoin as freedom money and using it in self custody way.

700
00:55:38.815 --> 00:55:41.795
Percentage wise, it's it's significantly down,

701
00:55:42.330 --> 00:55:46.590
but, absolute number wise, like, the actual number of people is is higher.

702
00:55:47.370 --> 00:55:50.990
And the tools are clearly getting better. I mean, we started this conversation talking about,

703
00:55:52.410 --> 00:55:55.550
the environment Specter Wallet appeared in five years ago.

704
00:55:56.735 --> 00:56:03.875
And it's never been easier than today to actually self custody Bitcoin and use it in a freedom oriented way, which is pretty beautiful to see.

705
00:56:04.815 --> 00:56:09.715
Yeah. It's always getting better. I'm pretty excited to see where it will be in five years because

706
00:56:10.170 --> 00:56:13.470
in the last five years, we've gone so far. Right?

707
00:56:13.770 --> 00:56:19.230
And I'm sure, like, people that were here, you know, 02/2013,

708
00:56:19.290 --> 00:56:20.030
for example,

709
00:56:20.410 --> 00:56:26.795
in 2020, they had tools which were much better than back then. Right? Now we have tools that are much better than '20,

710
00:56:27.335 --> 00:56:32.715
than 2020. Right? So I'm excited to see what's coming in the next few years, really.

711
00:56:33.095 --> 00:56:33.995
Yeah. I agree.

712
00:56:34.375 --> 00:56:35.675
The future is bright.

713
00:56:36.375 --> 00:56:36.875
Ben,

714
00:56:37.175 --> 00:56:40.369
Carlos is working overtime as

715
00:56:41.069 --> 00:56:45.150
a cohost of the show, and he brought up a point that I did wanna bring up. How do you guy

716
00:56:46.030 --> 00:56:48.930
Keeper Wall Bitcoin Keeper, how do you guys think about,

717
00:56:49.710 --> 00:56:50.609
social recovery?

718
00:56:53.494 --> 00:56:59.115
Yeah. So we have certain thoughts on social recovery in the future, but nothing immediate.

719
00:56:59.494 --> 00:57:04.555
We are working I can say we are working to integrate a contact feature into Keeper,

720
00:57:05.570 --> 00:57:08.070
which will basically allow more features,

721
00:57:08.770 --> 00:57:11.030
including social recovery in the future.

722
00:57:12.050 --> 00:57:17.590
But, yeah, first of all, we want to introduce this contact option so you can kind of interact with people.

723
00:57:17.985 --> 00:57:21.045
For example, instead of using the links for everything,

724
00:57:21.425 --> 00:57:27.125
that I mentioned, you can you will be able to do it even more easily just within the apps and messages,

725
00:57:27.505 --> 00:57:30.245
within the app that can integrate with the wallets.

726
00:57:30.970 --> 00:57:33.870
Yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, I you can kinda think of,

727
00:57:35.210 --> 00:57:37.150
the mini script features as a

728
00:57:37.610 --> 00:57:40.250
social recovery layer as well,

729
00:57:40.570 --> 00:57:42.350
because instead of the air

730
00:57:42.665 --> 00:57:46.365
instead of the air having the recovery keys, you could have,

731
00:57:46.984 --> 00:57:50.045
you know, your best friend or your uncle or something like that hold

732
00:57:50.425 --> 00:57:53.724
hold those recovery keys. It doesn't necessarily have to be the air.

733
00:57:54.585 --> 00:57:55.565
Yeah. Exactly.

734
00:57:56.280 --> 00:58:03.740
I mean, social recovery is interesting. Right? Because it's one of those things that has been thrown around in Bitcoin project and product circles for fucking years.

735
00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:05.260
And in

736
00:58:05.560 --> 00:58:09.660
in a in a theoretical world, it seems great. Right? It's like,

737
00:58:10.045 --> 00:58:14.945
okay. You're taking on personal responsibility. You're holding self custody Bitcoin. But if you mess it up,

738
00:58:17.085 --> 00:58:29.780
you know, a threshold of your friends or confidants or people you trust can help you recover your wallet. But then doing it in both a secure way and an easy way is very difficult problem to solve. Like, I haven't seen anyone

739
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:31.940
successfully solve it yet.

740
00:58:32.240 --> 00:58:34.660
Bitkey is kinda close. They have their own

741
00:58:35.120 --> 00:58:39.934
trade off model that they're battling with or they're offering to the market, I guess,

742
00:58:40.875 --> 00:58:45.994
which I think can be compelling for certain people depending on their threat model. But Big Key is more like

743
00:58:46.555 --> 00:58:49.214
to me, like, the way I look at Big Key is,

744
00:58:51.180 --> 00:58:58.800
is not trying to solve the same problem that typical hardware wallets have tried to solve over the years. Like, a typical hardware wallet is trying to

745
00:58:59.260 --> 00:58:59.760
solve

746
00:59:00.060 --> 00:59:03.040
strictly the security problem in protecting your Bitcoin.

747
00:59:03.414 --> 00:59:04.954
Well, Big Key is more

748
00:59:05.255 --> 00:59:14.315
more introducing hardware and multisig into the mix to make it harder for you to lose your Bitcoin and and make a mistake. Like, it's trying to solve that problem more than actual

749
00:59:14.855 --> 00:59:15.994
securing yourself

750
00:59:16.359 --> 00:59:18.619
in a more hardened way, offline way.

751
00:59:19.560 --> 00:59:27.579
And I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from people, like, comparing, like, a Bitkey to a cold card, for instance. I think they're trying to solve two very different problems

752
00:59:28.040 --> 00:59:29.579
and take two very distinct

753
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:31.339
trade off balances there.

754
00:59:32.085 --> 00:59:34.505
Yeah. Yeah. It's always about trade offs, really.

755
00:59:34.965 --> 00:59:35.285
So

756
00:59:36.085 --> 00:59:41.145
yeah. But that I mean, that goes really hand in hand, I think, with the social recovery stuff. Right? Because it's like,

757
00:59:41.525 --> 00:59:52.360
when you try and do the social recovery in an easy way, it's hard to do it in in the most secure way, and then you have this whole balance. But then, like I said, now I'm kinda ranting, but the manuscript component is

758
00:59:52.900 --> 00:59:55.300
really interesting and compelling. It's it's definitely,

759
00:59:55.620 --> 01:00:02.145
one of the features for, let's call it, a social recovery option, right, Where you can keep out keys but don't trust people.

760
01:00:02.525 --> 01:00:03.265
And again,

761
01:00:03.565 --> 01:00:05.345
it's always a trade off.

762
01:00:05.724 --> 01:00:14.145
If you want a solution that is secure, of course, it would be harder to use. It is kind of by design because if something is very easy, then it would be easy to

763
01:00:14.445 --> 01:00:17.080
access. Right. And making something that is

764
01:00:18.340 --> 01:00:20.680
very secure but also very easy to use,

765
01:00:21.060 --> 01:00:28.520
it's simply hard. Right? It's a difficult problem. So we try to get it better. We try to make it better all the time, and it's way better than it used to be.

766
01:00:29.435 --> 01:00:32.335
But it's still obviously, there are trade offs.

767
01:00:33.115 --> 01:00:33.615
Yeah.

768
01:00:34.795 --> 01:00:36.255
Ben, this was a great conversation.

769
01:00:36.955 --> 01:00:38.335
I really enjoyed it.

770
01:00:39.755 --> 01:00:46.170
I should actually play around with Bitcoin Keeper and put it through its paces. And when I do, I'll give you some feedback.

771
01:00:47.110 --> 01:00:50.570
Yeah. But directionally, it seems like you guys are onto something. It seems,

772
01:00:51.430 --> 01:00:53.370
like a pretty pretty compelling

773
01:00:53.750 --> 01:00:54.890
feature set there.

774
01:00:55.590 --> 01:00:56.970
So thank you for that.

775
01:00:57.765 --> 01:00:59.204
Do you have any final thoughts,

776
01:00:59.605 --> 01:01:01.464
for the audience before we wrap?

777
01:01:03.125 --> 01:01:14.440
No. Just generally try you can try to use Bitcoin keeper again. It's free, so you can just download it, create the wallet, and play with it. You don't have to register. We don't ask for any personal information,

778
01:01:15.140 --> 01:01:17.960
and you can just play with it and see what you think.

779
01:01:18.660 --> 01:01:20.040
Love it. And,

780
01:01:20.500 --> 01:01:24.120
the the website is is it bitcoinkeeper.app?

781
01:01:24.575 --> 01:01:26.674
Yeah. Exactly. Bitcoinkeeper.app.

782
01:01:26.734 --> 01:01:29.555
Or they can just search it on their app store, bitcoin keeper.

783
01:01:29.934 --> 01:01:33.634
Yeah. Also on the app store, bitcoin keeper, you can find this in the,

784
01:01:34.815 --> 01:01:38.595
on the website. You can find it on on x on Twitter.

785
01:01:40.050 --> 01:01:40.550
Awesome.

786
01:01:41.250 --> 01:01:49.350
I mean, I tried to keep this episode accessible because your app is attempting to be accessible to new users. I don't know how successful I was at that.

787
01:01:49.650 --> 01:01:50.150
Historically,

788
01:01:50.450 --> 01:01:52.310
dispatch has a lot more technical

789
01:01:52.610 --> 01:01:53.110
listeners.

790
01:01:54.065 --> 01:02:00.805
To the technical listeners that might be playing around with the app and wanna give you feedback, what's the best way for them to give you technical feedback?

791
01:02:01.744 --> 01:02:02.644
Yeah. So

792
01:02:02.944 --> 01:02:04.724
first of all, you can reach us,

793
01:02:05.265 --> 01:02:11.210
through the app. Right? So we have a whole chat system, like a support ticketing system from the app,

794
01:02:11.910 --> 01:02:16.390
because we used to we still have a Telegram group, but then it's, Telegram is just,

795
01:02:18.310 --> 01:02:21.370
has too many scams, basically. It's and it's very It's a mess.

796
01:02:21.785 --> 01:02:23.245
Yeah. It's a mess. Exactly.

797
01:02:23.545 --> 01:02:25.165
So we implemented a chat,

798
01:02:25.785 --> 01:02:36.525
at ticketing support through the app so you can reach us more securely. And you can always reach me on on Twitter. So my DMs are open, and they try to respond all the time.

799
01:02:37.140 --> 01:02:38.599
Awesome. I'll put all the links

800
01:02:39.220 --> 01:02:41.799
in the show notes. Ben, thank you for joining us.

801
01:02:42.339 --> 01:02:43.640
Yeah. Thank you for inviting.

802
01:02:44.420 --> 01:02:49.240
Freaks, especially those of you in the live chat. Thank you for joining. You guys make the show unique.

803
01:02:50.744 --> 01:02:54.845
Kieran promised me he's gonna make sure the Nostra chat is up and live

804
01:02:55.385 --> 01:02:57.325
sometime soon. In general,

805
01:02:59.145 --> 01:03:00.125
I will just,

806
01:03:00.585 --> 01:03:05.244
take one for the team and say that the Nostra ecosystem in general needs to have

807
01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:15.060
better video streaming support, video watching support, all video stuff. I mean, I I think I think it's somewhere where we can really excel and we need to lean into it.

808
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:16.980
So I will take partial

809
01:03:17.615 --> 01:03:18.194
responsibility for

810
01:03:19.295 --> 01:03:22.035
it not being at a stable, reliable, robust

811
01:03:22.655 --> 01:03:24.115
position right now. But,

812
01:03:24.815 --> 01:03:27.155
we're making progress and we're making progress quickly.

813
01:03:27.535 --> 01:03:29.714
So I think we'll be in a much better place soon.

814
01:03:30.250 --> 01:03:31.630
And then last but not least,

815
01:03:31.930 --> 01:03:34.670
freaks who support the show with Sats. Thank you.

816
01:03:35.530 --> 01:03:38.110
All the relevant links are at silldispatch.com.

817
01:03:39.050 --> 01:03:43.710
Share with your friends and family. It really does go a long way. Leave a review in your favorite app store. It helps.

818
01:03:45.240 --> 01:03:47.180
But thank you all. Stay humble.

819
01:03:47.799 --> 01:03:48.299
Peace.