CD168: MATT AHLBORG - PAYPERQ AI

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 07/14/2025 21:33:21
Duration: 4442.389
Channels: 1

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Another all time high today topping a 118,000.

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The run up comes ahead of crypto week in Washington where congress is set to consider key legislation for the industry. Our next guest says the cryptocurrency could march to $1,000,000.

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Will Reeves is the CEO of Fold, the Bitcoin financial services platform, and he joins us now. I mean, Will, I'd love to sort of get your take on why we're seeing Bitcoin move higher. I know it doesn't always trade on fundamentals,

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but is anything that's happening in Washington potentially influencing the price of Bitcoin this week?

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You know, I think this is just inevitable. This is what happens when massive demand meets the finite supply of Bitcoin, and what we're seeing right now is the supply shock in motion. So I'd certainly say what we are seeing is the fundamentals of Bitcoin in play.

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And so you think that it will begin to start to move more on fundamentals and potentially even more so once it gets these sort of stamps of, hey. This is good stuff from Washington?

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I think the, stamps of approval have always been good. It enables new capital allocators to start to invest. And what we've seen recently,

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with the rise of Bitcoin treasury companies, the ETFs,

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is that entirely new classes of capital are able to invest in the asset. And what we're seeing is what happens when trillions of dollars start knocking on the door, the price tends to go up. And so the fundamentals have always been there.

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Investors have been waiting for their ability to get involved.

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What would it take for some of the other coins, altcoins, to kind of

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get the vote of approval or stamp of approval, if you will, in terms of Bitcoins? Because, I mean, if you think back to meme coins, the Doge's, the early stages of Bitcoin, it was very really the early adopters that really kind of formed that cohort that pushed it higher. Who will it take for us to see that transition into some of the other

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coins that are still branded as more speculative?

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You know, frankly, I think they're gonna remain speculative. Bitcoin dominance is at 60%

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in rising. I think what we're seeing is an inevitable trend towards the signal, the Apex asset.

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The issue is is that Bitcoin is the only credibly neutral digital asset that is in issuance.

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All the other tokens are still proving an extraordinarily speculative use case without the track record of Bitcoin. And so what we are seeing today is the continued march of Bitcoin

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dominating this entire market.

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And,

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I I am well, I'm waiting for the day when that changes, but ultimately, what we've seen is something that can't be reversed.

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Happy Bitcoin

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Monday, freaks.

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We got another still dispatch. The interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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Looks like ZapStream is still under

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DDoS right now. I'm gonna keep an eye on that for us.

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But until then, I'm gonna remove

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that from our stream. Let's see what we got going here.

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Live producing

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going.

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We'll be streaming in the Twitch comments, the YouTube comments, and the x comments

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until ZapStream comes back online. Anyway, so dispatch the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion. We have another all time high Bitcoin rip going on Bitcoin

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maybe last night or yesterday, I guess, right before I fell asleep, past a hundred and twenty k.

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Kieran from ZapStream said he just ordered a new router to deal with his DDoS.

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We have Matt Alborg here from PPQ,

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paper q dot a I.

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How's it going, Matt?

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Hey. It's going well. Yeah. It's a pretty good day when Bitcoin's at an all time high to do a podcast. So

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Hopefully hopefully

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hopefully, this is the the rest of the summer. It's just constant all time high reps. I I'm here for it.

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So where should we get started? I mean, I think

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sorry. I'm reading troubleshooting.

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Your product's awesome.

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Let's do a quick

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to the freaks

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that don't know what ppq.ai

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is,

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what is it? Why does it exist? Why should people care?

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Yeah. So PPQ,

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it's a

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website where you can get access to all of the latest and greatest

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AI models and tools in one place,

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and it's without subscription. It's on a pay per use basis,

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and it accepts

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all well, many cryptos, but we do have kind of a Bitcoin first,

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preference,

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5% bonus for all lightning deposits in particular.

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But the basic the basic idea is that,

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you can come to our website. You can deposit as little as 10¢ worth of Bitcoin. You can try the product out. You're not committing to a monthly or annual subscription or anything like that. And,

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yeah, what we've what we've seen in the last year is that there is not one AI company that's releasing all of the best models.

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Yeah. There are, half a dozen,

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awesome companies releasing really awesome stuff. And so it really pushes forward the idea that, like,

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the better the better, interfaces with AI, it's it's those that are plugged into all of the top company models.

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Yeah. I mean,

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I guess there's a bunch of things to unpack here, but

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trying to stay on top of,

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the AI curve or the AI

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acceleration phase where it just feels like new stuff is dropping every day.

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You kinda have you're you're you're kind of held back by as an individual that wants to use these tools, you're held back for two reasons. You're held back for one that

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you have a bunch of different companies that are iterating and innovating and shipping new stuff all the time.

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So in practice, you end up needing to have accounts everywhere.

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And then the second piece is it's very hard to use them with any semblance of privacy whatsoever.

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They almost all require credit cards as a payment method,

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And then some of them even do other identity

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verification. Like, they try and make it even more difficult to use privately, let alone

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just the standard credit card billing stuff.

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So PPQ is really cool because you basically have all of the

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top models in one place, and then you can just easily pay with lightning.

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Probably. Awesome. And I I think it's I mean, it's pretty unique. Right? Is there anything else that kinda even competes with you?

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Yeah. There are.

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There's one website in particular that I would consider to be our competitor,

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Nano GPT.

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They've done basically the same thing that we've done except they love the cryptocurrency Nano.

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I forgot that I forgot that shitcoin existed.

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Yeah.

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But aside from that, aside from their, misguided

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shitcoining,

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they've done a great job executing.

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And so,

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we we are trying to answer in kind and and,

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we,

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we recently acquired

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a $500,000

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investment from a couple of the,

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you know, popular Bitcoin VCs.

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And so we're scaling up now on the engineering side so that way we can really, really ship a lot of great stuff,

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in in the coming months. Yep.

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So let's

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so, I mean, if you look on if you look on your website, I mean, you can you can see what,

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different models you offer. But, you know, you have the OpenAI models there. You have the Anthropic models. You have XAI with Grok. You have the Google Gemini stuff,

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Mistral,

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Perplexity,

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Meta.

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How hard is it to actually integrate with their APIs? Like, do they

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make that difficult for you? Like, what is that process like to actually?

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It it is, I would say, medium difficulty.

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We in many cases,

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with the top top models, we like to directly integrate with the provider. So we're getting our OpenAI models directly from OpenAI. We're getting our anthropic directly from anthropic.

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But with a lot of the,

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kind of second tier models and such, like, it would be a lot of overhead to set up direct integrations with all of these dozens of AI companies. So then we plug into, like, an aggregator that there are a bunch of companies coming up that are specializing in, like, providing all these models,

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in one place, which is kinda similar to what we do,

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as well. So,

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but I think our focus is that we want to make our platform,

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really user friendly where a lot of these kind of other aggregators, they're more at the they're more developer facing or even enterprise facing,

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whereas we're we're kind of trying to get to the,

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AI curious newbies or maybe crypto native person who's a little bit technologically minded, but maybe is is learning AI for the first time. That's the kind of users that we are capturing. Yeah.

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You're, like, more of the, like, the consumer focused front end while they're kinda

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offering, like, more of a b two b type of service.

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Exactly. Yeah. Mhmm.

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And I does with Grok, is that, like, a direct API

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call? Like, they just open up an API for you? I assume you have to pay for it. But Yeah. So Grok is a tricky one. You can get a direct API access with XAI.

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However, we're getting our Groc from one of the aggregators.

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When they released Groc four, like, a week ago,

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they kinda released it to a limited pool of of companies. And so for that reason, we are we're not getting it directly.

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But, we do have,

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you know, an XAI account. And,

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when they make it available,

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directly, we will probably plug in that way.

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And then what about, like, the open source models? Are you self hosting any like, are you hosting open source models, or are you, is it you're purely an API front end effectively? Yeah. We're we're basically

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purely an API front end.

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Self hosting models is actually a lot of work, and,

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it's it's a lot of resources as well.

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Even,

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like Open Secret or or Maple AI, those guys, which I really like them, love what they're doing, and I've had several conversations with them.

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But the model that they're self hosting is it's still not the fully beefed up version

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of of, DeepSeq or or whatever open source model because those literally cost LLAMA they have LLAMA and DeepSeq Seek right now as their two supported models.

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Yes. And but those particular instances of those models, they're not the beefed up version of the model. They're kind of like the middle of the road model.

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And and so because it costs a lot of money to host,

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one of those,

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the beefed up versions, like, I think on the order of $1,020,000

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dollars a month, something like that. So you need a lot of demand

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to really justify hosting the fully beefed up open source version,

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And it's a lot of engineering to put into place and make sure that it's all, like, load balanced correctly and and all that stuff.

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So we've, avoided that stuff.

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Another reason I would say is it's a lot of work, but

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another reason is the demand is not there, for a lot of the open source ones yet. They don't have the name brand recognition.

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There's still

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you know, when DeepSeq came out,

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a few months back, everybody

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everybody thought, like, oh my goodness. It's like, you know, it's just as good as as OpenAI and Anthropic. And then, like, as time passed, people figured out that, no. This model is not as good as the brand name models yet.

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And and there's still a lot of work to to to make up. And and as an end user of of AI, like, if I'm a developer every day, I would say

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a core user that we have is developers,

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using our API.

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If I if I want to,

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do my job in the best way possible, I would rather use the absolute best model. There's no reason for me to use a model that's, like, 90% as good as something that that I you know, it's just not worth my time.

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So, yeah, so the open source models are not there yet. There's a really exciting one,

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that was released a few days ago. It's called Kimmy from Moonshot AI. It's it's like another Chinese open source model. Right? Yes. Yes. And it's getting a lot of buzz, and we're adding that, that one either tonight or tomorrow morning.

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And, so we'll see. It seems to have good reviews, but really, truly, the the test of time is really important for a lot of these models because,

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it's very easy to

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get your new model to pass all of the, like, the benchmarks,

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to kind of game it to to to do really well on benchmark testing. But then when it actually comes to, like, actual usage,

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it's it's a different story a lot of the time. So

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Right.

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I mean, the way I kinda think about it is,

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like, the open source models

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are usable right now for kind of, like,

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the average person chat

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interface type of scenario where you're asking for, like, populations of different countries and different stuff like that. But if you wanna do, like,

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really

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strong tasks, hard, aggressive tasks, whether that's, you know, generative art or vibe coding or something like that, there's a real big gap between the proprietary models and the Yes. And the open source ones. Would you agree on that? Totally. Yeah. And it it's but that that was not always the case. Like, even a year ago, when we've jumped from GPT 3.5

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to GPT four turbo,

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like,

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GPT four turbo, I believe, was, like, the first model that

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really started doing well at answering those everyday questions, like population or whatever country. Like, 3.5

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did the job, but Ford turbo really, like, was the first model that

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did well at all that, even the basic everyday questions.

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And so I think we are already at the point where, like,

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the basic everyday questions

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are free now. And and we've we've already moved past that, and now the expensive models are the ones that can do a lot of the fancy stuff. Yeah.

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Yeah. That makes sense to me. So, I mean, as an end user,

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like, obviously

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I mean, maybe I'm not the average end user, but I I personally have,

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you know, long term concerns about

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the viability of of open source models versus proprietary models. Like, I don't want us to go down a dystopian hole of,

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proprietary

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data surveillance heavy models.

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I mean, I think it puts a lot of disadvantages to the individual. It gives a lot of advantage to the corporations, to the governments that they

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are they collude with or get pressured by. But from a just an actual individual everyday

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point of view, the biggest issue is on the privacy side.

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So for right now, like, the way you have

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PPQ AI set up,

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what is that trust model? Does that look like a is that like a VPN trust model? Like, are you basically sitting in between

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me and my,

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prompts versus with with the the AI model on the other side? Like, how does that look? How should a user think about the privacy model of your product?

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Yeah. So,

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with PPQ, when a user comes and they enter in a question and then they hit the enter key, it that query, along with the content of that query, goes to our back end, and you have to trust that we are not logging,

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the content of your query on the back end. And we in our terms of service, we are telling our users that, like, we only log metadata, like, how many tokens the question was,

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how much it cost, all that stuff, and we're not logging the content, but we're not proving that.

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And so but what happens after it hits our back end is we send it on to the AI provider,

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and then the a AI provider returns the answer. The answer also goes through our back end including the content, And we're promising that we're not logging it, and we're sending it back to the front end.

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That's the model right now, so you do have to trust us that we're not logging this stuff.

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I do think there is potential for, like, an architecture that could improve

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that where we could make better guarantees for our users.

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But, honestly, like,

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I did my best to get this product up and running as fast as possible.

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And I think that's, like, a very classic

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trade off between,

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like,

209
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a lot of what Bitcoiners want is, like,

210
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they always want you to to go

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absolutely perfectly in the direction of privacy. And if you're and if you're not all the way there, then

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you're

213
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you suck. And

214
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and,

215
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so I think that's actually one of my things that I'm good at is that I'm good at being practical

216
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and just shipping stuff that works.

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And,

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I do

219
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very much appreciate privacy, and I wanna build that in a lot better over time.

220
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But that's where we're at right now. I wanna give people something that works.

221
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Yeah. I mean, I think it's, like, a perfect is the enemy of good classic example.

222
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And so it's basically the VPN trust model, more or less. So we we are you trust Mullvad or Proton not to log.

223
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so trust the relationship.

224
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But what about,

225
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presumably,

226
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if I'm doing a bunch of follow on prompts,

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the AI provider knows that's all from the same person, I assume. Right? I don't think so. So we to the AI provider, we are

228
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one customer to them. So Okay. All of the queries

229
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from all of our users are being bundled into one, like so,

230
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now with certain data analysis and stuff, they theoretically could probably figure out, like, okay.

231
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These queries here are associated with They're very similar.

232
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Right? Yeah. Yeah.

233
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So they could do that, but I don't know. It I I But they're not getting, like, user x or user y or user ID code. User PPQ is what they're seeing. Yeah.

234
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And and so especially if it's if it's two different

235
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tasks that I'm doing. If I do if I, like, vibe code an app and then I go and just generate

236
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photos or something in a new chat window on PPQ,

237
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there's there's it's a pretty good privacy model there if if we trust you. I would say so. Yes. From the AI provider.

238
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Yep.

239
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Okay. That makes sense to me. The other cool aspect

240
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is is one of the few ways to actually use this stuff on, like, a pay per use basis, which, I mean, is hence the name pay per queue.

241
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How do you think about that? Like, are your costs

242
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like, it seems like the industry has more or less standardized, at least for consumer grade stuff, is standardized

243
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on, like, a monthly subscription model,

244
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where you just pay and you might you probably don't use it all or some power users

245
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are just destroying

246
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and destroying them and using way too much.

247
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From an end user point of view, I love the pay per use model because, honestly, I'm I'm not a power user. I'm not using it all the time.

248
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And I like to know that I just when I use it, I pay for it, and when I don't, I don't.

249
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But how does that work for you? Are you pay are your bills,

250
00:20:50.075 --> 00:21:00.895
usage based, or, like, how does that work? Yeah. My bills are usage based. PPQs are. We're we're when we plug into an API, we're not on any sort of, like, AI subscriptions with these companies.

251
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But, yeah, this is a really, really big question, actually.

252
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The the subscription model versus pay per use, how did we end up here?

253
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I think most people

254
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I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I'm not it's, like, not perfectly

255
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crystallized in my mind. So I'm probably just gonna ramble on here. But,

256
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with subscriptions,

257
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I think that,

258
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let's see. How do I start this?

259
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So most people think that we arrived at this subscription models because,

260
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like, some MBA meeting at at all these companies agrees that it's like, oh, we should find a way to charge users for stuff that they don't use That's really good business model. Right? Like and then let's make them forget that they have a The gym memberships.

261
00:21:49.434 --> 00:21:57.535
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So I think that most people believe that that's how we ended up here because it's like a a nice way to steal money from your users,

262
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which I think there's some truth to that.

263
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But I think if you,

264
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I I worked at Bitrefill for five years, and one of my projects there was to kind of research the idea of getting the Bitrefill

265
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Visa card or Mastercard or whatever. And so I learned a lot about how the credit card companies work and how their fee structures work.

266
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And, actually,

267
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I believe that we've arrived

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industry wide or, you know,

269
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global payments

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global payments,

271
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we've arrived at subscriptions

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not because of,

273
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it's it's a good way to steal money from users, but because

274
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the fees that Visa and Mastercard charge on microtransactions

275
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make microtransactions

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untenable

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in most cases.

278
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And, also, the fact that Visa and Mastercard have from their inception, they built in this chargeback mechanism,

279
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it makes it so that,

280
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anytime you do a payment on on these networks,

281
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there's a risk that it could be disputed and that it would be charged back. And for whatever reason, it means the what that amounts to is that small transaction

282
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numbers

283
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or or small volume numbers,

284
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are not,

285
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good for

286
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they they they become more expensive. So when you swipe a card, it's like 30¢

287
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plus a percentage,

288
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typically. And so what that means is that a larger swipe is better,

289
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and that kind of rules out a lot of micro transactions.

290
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But with crypto,

291
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it is there is no chargeback risk.

292
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It everything is instantly settled, and so we are now back at a place where pay per views actually starts to make sense. And and when you when you

293
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you know, there's all sorts of justifications

294
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for why we should have subscriptions,

295
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like, from a business point of view, like, you know, stealing money from users. And, like, we can also say, like, oh, now we have this recurring revenue thing, and that's good for you can you can,

296
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tell the the, the shareholders that we have our current

297
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Yeah. All this bullshit. But it's it's at the end of the day,

298
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what is a subscription? It's you're charging

299
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every user the same amount no matter their usage, and that just economically makes no sense at all.

300
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You should be charging users based on their usage. And so I think that we are at the beginning of the end of subscriptions. I think that companies like PayPerQ,

301
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are going to start eating away at subscriptions. And the beautiful thing is is that you said you're a casual user. Right? So

302
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the the people who make the most money for these subscription providers

303
00:24:38.955 --> 00:24:50.880
are now gonna come to pay per queue because it costs them $2 a month instead of $20 a month. Right? And so who's left over in the subscriptions? It's the power. And I'm also I'm also, like, a casual user that wants

304
00:24:51.500 --> 00:24:59.840
the best model. Right? Like, I I don't I don't use it all the time, but I also I I would pay the best model. Use it. Yeah. Yeah.

305
00:25:00.154 --> 00:25:01.774
Exactly. So that that actually

306
00:25:02.235 --> 00:25:12.495
helps us out against the freemium providers. Like, you can use ChatCBT for free, but they don't give you the document upload. They don't let you make images. They give you, like, a really shitty context window,

307
00:25:13.530 --> 00:25:29.585
all that stuff. So, yeah, PaperQ is a perfect place where you can actually get the high quality version of the model, the state of the art, but you're not paying a subscription. And so, yeah, it's it's great. Right. So I kinda cut you off, but what you were saying is

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you're kind of forcing the hand of the other providers to move to this model because the only ones who'd be he'll be left on the subscription model are the ones that they're not making money off of because they're just, oh, like, using the hell out of it. That's exactly where this is gonna end up, I I think. And I think AI is kind of the perfect,

309
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way to to to really start forcing your hand because, like, Spotify subscription, I don't think that's going away anytime soon. Netflix subscription,

310
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that requires, like, massive licensing fees with all these big media conglomerates and stuff. Right? But this AI, I think, is it's the perfect

311
00:26:05.315 --> 00:26:08.215
way to really start eating away at the subscriptions.

312
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I mean, this is the first time that we've seen, like or maybe maybe I'm missing something, but it feels like one of the first times we've seen actual

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significant,

314
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like, on the Internet pay per use cost.

315
00:26:21.625 --> 00:26:27.404
Right? Like, real physical cost. Like, it has major computational cost every time you send them these prompts.

316
00:26:30.025 --> 00:26:32.924
Yes. Yes. And that's kind of what makes it the perfect,

317
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like, the perfect, start to this end of subscriptions

318
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is that,

319
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yeah, there are,

320
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all sorts of views. Some are very casual. Some are power users. So the subscription models don't make sense anymore. And you can see that these subscription providers are already kind of, like they don't know what to do. Now they have, like, higher tier subscriptions.

321
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And even with, like,

322
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Cursor, if you've ever heard of Cursor, it's like this,

323
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it's like this,

324
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development tool that a lot of people are using. They have a 20

325
00:27:04.820 --> 00:27:07.240
$20 subscription, then they have a $200 subscription.

326
00:27:07.620 --> 00:27:10.520
The $20 subscription, they're already kind of, like,

327
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taking really big behind the scenes shortcuts.

328
00:27:15.220 --> 00:27:16.920
I I just recently hired

329
00:27:17.745 --> 00:27:35.330
a CTO, and he came in. And he and and I'm trying to he's he's, you know, he's got fifteen years of development experience. And this is a little bit of problem with with, like, some of the senior devs as you can't get them into the AI because they already know a lot of it. And, like, AI is really good for people like me who are not,

330
00:27:36.510 --> 00:27:40.770
seasoned developers. I'm kinda just I learned coding in my late twenties and,

331
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you know, I was never really a super full time person.

332
00:27:44.524 --> 00:27:50.144
So it's great for me, but for these senior developers, like, they really have to be convinced on the value of AI.

333
00:27:50.524 --> 00:27:57.825
Well, I'm trying to convince him, like, you need to start using AI more because, like, this is our core user. You need to understand our product, blah blah blah.

334
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:09.500
And the first week or two, he's like, hey. You know, I'm I'm doing my best, but, like but what what we figured out is that his $20 cursor subscription was, like, giving him really shit results.

335
00:28:10.625 --> 00:28:13.205
And that's he was forming his opinion of

336
00:28:13.664 --> 00:28:18.804
AI based on the shitty experience that he was having using $20 Cursor.

337
00:28:19.345 --> 00:28:21.284
And then I was like, oh, that's crazy.

338
00:28:21.664 --> 00:28:35.659
Like, try using Cline. Cline is an open source version of Cursor that works on a pay per use model. And when it's pay per use, you're getting the model that you're paying for. It's giving you the full quality of the model. There's no secret,

339
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:41.955
shortcuts behind the scenes. What we think is going on with Cursor is they're like, to save money,

340
00:28:42.335 --> 00:28:44.035
they're giving you lesser models

341
00:28:44.655 --> 00:28:52.035
at certain times, and and they're they're shrinking the context window. So it's not reading all of your files. It's like throttling.

342
00:28:52.789 --> 00:29:00.970
It's throttling you. Yes. And so when he switched over to Cline on paper use, he's like, holy shit. This thing is doing so much better than Cursor.

343
00:29:01.270 --> 00:29:07.450
And so you you can already see there are really a lot of serious cracks forming in these subscription models.

344
00:29:08.565 --> 00:29:11.385
So with with your business model specifically,

345
00:29:12.085 --> 00:29:16.664
are you just charging, like, a flat rate margin on top of every usage?

346
00:29:17.524 --> 00:29:21.284
That's what we're doing. I would like to transition to kind of a,

347
00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:32.160
kind of like a logarithmic pricing where, like, if you're a casual user, we're gonna charge you a higher margin. But if you use us a bunch over a thirty day window,

348
00:29:32.540 --> 00:29:35.280
your margin's gonna lower. Like a Bitcoin exchange.

349
00:29:35.914 --> 00:29:37.434
Yeah. Exactly. There you go.

350
00:29:38.075 --> 00:29:43.294
Same thing. So I would like to implement that. That way, we win both user both types of users.

351
00:29:43.835 --> 00:29:49.695
But right now, it's just a fixed fee on top of that. That's pretty cool. I mean, you're just profitable and sustainable from the get go.

352
00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:50.960
Yeah. Exactly.

353
00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:57.040
And it's and it's simple. That's the other thing with subscription. I told you, don't get me started on subscription.

354
00:29:58.380 --> 00:30:01.520
Every single AI website on the Internet right now,

355
00:30:01.900 --> 00:30:05.040
it has the same onboarding flow. You go to their website.

356
00:30:05.434 --> 00:30:12.655
They give you this watered down narrow version of what they actually offer, or maybe they'll give you a seven day trial or whatever.

357
00:30:13.355 --> 00:30:18.174
And then they try to get you on that subscription. Right? So there's so much,

358
00:30:19.280 --> 00:30:21.700
design thought that goes into

359
00:30:22.080 --> 00:30:22.580
converting

360
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:27.940
a user to become a subscriber. Right? Because that's a big commitment. Right? To get somebody

361
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.960
$20 subscription, that's $240

362
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.965
a year. So to get people to get

363
00:30:34.425 --> 00:30:37.965
a user to cross that, you have to design things so well,

364
00:30:38.985 --> 00:30:42.285
to get them to to to sign up for the subscription. On PPQ,

365
00:30:42.665 --> 00:30:58.710
like, we don't have to think about that stuff at all. You come. You make a deposit. We charge you whatever the price is, and and boom. You like it, good. If you don't like it, then you didn't lose anything. You're not committed. You know? Is is your margin is, like, the fee you charge on top public? Or

366
00:30:59.985 --> 00:31:01.205
it's not. But, I mean,

367
00:31:01.745 --> 00:31:03.525
we charge 40%

368
00:31:03.665 --> 00:31:04.565
on the UI.

369
00:31:05.345 --> 00:31:08.005
Okay. And it still adds up to, like,

370
00:31:08.545 --> 00:31:22.410
you know, you're doing advanced queries and it's 2 pennies per query type thing. Yeah. It still feels pretty cheap. It's very cheap. Especially if you're not, if if you're not, like, an insane user. Yeah. Our median user is spending, like, a buck 50 a month.

371
00:31:23.430 --> 00:31:26.730
But on our API, we have a much lower margin,

372
00:31:27.465 --> 00:31:35.225
because the API users are using us, like, a lot more, and they're using us with the the IDEs and stuff. So,

373
00:31:37.304 --> 00:31:37.804
our

374
00:31:38.105 --> 00:31:43.240
I think our margin on the API is, like, 18, but we're gonna go even lower soon.

375
00:31:43.860 --> 00:31:45.140
Maybe 10%,

376
00:31:45.140 --> 00:31:46.260
something like that. So,

377
00:31:47.059 --> 00:31:54.360
what does an API user look like? Are they using something like Goose on the front end and they're connecting it? And, like, how does how are they using that product?

378
00:31:55.755 --> 00:31:59.055
So they get so we offer an API key.

379
00:31:59.435 --> 00:32:00.895
Okay. What sort of PPQ,

380
00:32:01.195 --> 00:32:07.135
you get a little a p a PPQ API key. Our API key is what's considered OpenAI compatible,

381
00:32:07.435 --> 00:32:10.255
which means you can plug our API key in

382
00:32:10.710 --> 00:32:11.450
literally dozens,

383
00:32:11.830 --> 00:32:14.090
hundreds now of third party tools.

384
00:32:14.950 --> 00:32:16.409
And so, yes, Goose,

385
00:32:16.710 --> 00:32:17.210
Klein,

386
00:32:17.590 --> 00:32:18.090
Roo,

387
00:32:19.909 --> 00:32:22.250
the tons and tons and tons Zed.

388
00:32:23.684 --> 00:32:28.505
So they're just using a different front end with your API, basically. Yeah. They're they're using

389
00:32:28.965 --> 00:32:30.905
I I would say, yes.

390
00:32:31.365 --> 00:32:37.320
They're they're using a different front end, but most of the time, it's an IDE, an integrated development environment. So it's like,

391
00:32:37.700 --> 00:32:40.360
yeah, they're they're looking at code. They're making calls.

392
00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:46.680
They're making many calls in succession as it reads their code files and stuff like that. Yeah. Got it.

393
00:32:49.304 --> 00:32:54.125
So, I mean, you said this in the beginning, and I wanna pull back to it. I mean, the biggest friction

394
00:32:54.745 --> 00:32:55.245
presumably

395
00:32:56.265 --> 00:32:57.885
with your product right now,

396
00:32:58.825 --> 00:33:03.225
and the death of subscription models is, like, people actually using Bitcoin,

397
00:33:04.169 --> 00:33:12.429
to make payments. Obviously, someone like me, I go to the website. I wanna test it out. It's like I just I have, like, 15 different Bitcoin wallets I could pull up to

398
00:33:12.730 --> 00:33:21.674
to pay it. But, like, the average person that doesn't have Bitcoin, maybe that's not the case. Maybe they get hit with some friction there. You said you mentioned that Lightning specifically

399
00:33:22.375 --> 00:33:28.235
you're basically giving a 5% discount to people. If they pay with Lightning, you'd rather than pay with Lightning. Obviously,

400
00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:40.590
I mean, our listeners, I think, would agree with me that Lightning is, like, the single best payment method for this type of thing. First of all, we get great privacy. But just from the UX point of view, it's just like point, click, go.

401
00:33:42.105 --> 00:33:47.885
You have a bit refill background, but you also have a Useful Tulips background. I mean, that's what I knew you from.

402
00:33:49.625 --> 00:33:54.125
Freaks, if you didn't put two and two together, this is Matt Alberg from Useful Tulips,

403
00:33:54.820 --> 00:33:55.560
the OG

404
00:33:56.100 --> 00:33:57.800
p two p trading dashboard

405
00:33:58.260 --> 00:34:00.840
that was, like, tracking. I think it does it still exist?

406
00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:04.040
Yep. No. It's not Not updated?

407
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:05.880
Anymore. I think the website

408
00:34:06.865 --> 00:34:11.285
it was tracking all the p two p sales data from, like, all the different countries in the world,

409
00:34:12.385 --> 00:34:19.205
had great charts and whatnot. But you also have this bit refill background. And one of I've had Sergei on the show before,

410
00:34:20.300 --> 00:34:21.440
and I

411
00:34:21.820 --> 00:34:25.920
also, you know, have become relatively close with him. And one of the most fascinating things

412
00:34:26.220 --> 00:34:32.080
about him and his relationship with Bitrefill is the payment breakdown. So I'm kinda curious, like, what do you see payment wise

413
00:34:32.700 --> 00:34:33.760
in terms of

414
00:34:34.335 --> 00:34:36.035
Bitcoin on chain, Lightning,

415
00:34:36.415 --> 00:34:40.515
the other cryptos, currencies you support? Like, how does that look in practice?

416
00:34:41.295 --> 00:34:43.155
Yeah. So Lightning is number one.

417
00:34:43.855 --> 00:34:46.115
It's just over majority.

418
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:48.100
Number two,

419
00:34:49.200 --> 00:34:53.220
let's see. If you if you can make a guess on our number two. Is it Tether?

420
00:34:54.160 --> 00:34:54.660
Nope.

421
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:56.820
Oh, is it Monero?

422
00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:57.940
Monero.

423
00:34:58.240 --> 00:35:00.740
Yeah. So number two is Monero on chain Bitcoin.

424
00:35:01.595 --> 00:35:03.775
Yes. On chain Bitcoin is pretty small.

425
00:35:04.234 --> 00:35:07.855
And just because if they already have on chain Bitcoin, they'll probably just pay you in lightning, I guess.

426
00:35:08.155 --> 00:35:14.815
Yeah. Also, our on chain Bitcoin has been kind of, like, finicky. So it's hard to give, like, statistical significance

427
00:35:15.194 --> 00:35:16.494
sometimes because, like,

428
00:35:17.030 --> 00:35:19.849
our payment methods were not always a 100% up.

429
00:35:20.150 --> 00:35:26.089
Okay. And it goes with our stable coins. Like, we had a really shitty stable coin payment processor with a lot of errors.

430
00:35:26.470 --> 00:35:31.035
So, like, the tether is probably a little lower than it should be. Got it. But

431
00:35:31.335 --> 00:35:36.795
coming from Bitrefill, I know exactly the payment popularity over there, and that's why I,

432
00:35:37.655 --> 00:35:51.830
chose to add the payment methods I did on PBQ because I'm already very familiar with what, like, the crypto payment landscape looks like. That's why I know that actually Litecoin is is actually pretty important payment coin to add.

433
00:35:52.530 --> 00:35:55.110
I think Do you see a lot of Litecoin payments?

434
00:35:56.210 --> 00:35:59.750
It's lower than I thought it would be, but I think it's still around, like,

435
00:36:00.245 --> 00:36:01.705
15%,

436
00:36:01.925 --> 00:36:07.705
something like that. Interesting. Way higher than I would expect. On Bitrefill, it's pretty high.

437
00:36:08.325 --> 00:36:10.665
Like, still not insanely high, but,

438
00:36:11.205 --> 00:36:12.405
yeah, 15%

439
00:36:12.405 --> 00:36:13.800
plus, something like that.

440
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.220
Yeah. There there's

441
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:20.540
there's a crazy thing with, like, the older the coin and and

442
00:36:21.080 --> 00:36:33.415
the more, you know, the older the coin, the more exchanges that it's listed on, the more wallets that support it. These coins gain massive network effects as well even if they're just the carbon copy

443
00:36:33.795 --> 00:36:35.335
of what Bitcoin is.

444
00:36:36.355 --> 00:36:39.255
And it is I think it's very fascinating how

445
00:36:39.630 --> 00:36:42.450
Litecoin has kind of hung in there with without

446
00:36:42.829 --> 00:36:48.609
really any innovation or any nobody's ever been cheerleading Litecoin to a large degree.

447
00:36:49.549 --> 00:36:50.930
It's just kind of like this

448
00:36:51.309 --> 00:36:59.065
zombie project of sorts that just keeps kicking because it's been around so long. And they have actually improved Litecoin. They have, like,

449
00:36:59.685 --> 00:37:03.865
Mweb. It's like Mimble, Wimble, something or other. It's a privacy hack.

450
00:37:04.165 --> 00:37:08.105
They recently added the Litecoin. I don't know if it's good or not, but,

451
00:37:09.310 --> 00:37:11.810
yeah. I I I don't hate on the Litecoiners

452
00:37:12.270 --> 00:37:13.890
as much as I do some others,

453
00:37:14.589 --> 00:37:21.089
because I do think they have a lot of shared ideals with and they they a lot of them come from back in the day when

454
00:37:21.390 --> 00:37:25.185
the the early days of, you know, 2013, 2014 when

455
00:37:25.565 --> 00:37:30.945
when we were all learning about Bitcoin together and that type of thing. So I'm as the original shitcoin.

456
00:37:31.645 --> 00:37:34.285
I, so I'm looking here and,

457
00:37:34.765 --> 00:37:36.704
so I see you offer you offer

458
00:37:37.244 --> 00:37:37.744
lightning,

459
00:37:39.020 --> 00:37:40.240
Bitcoin, Monero,

460
00:37:41.180 --> 00:37:42.160
liquid Bitcoin

461
00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:43.020
Yep.

462
00:37:44.700 --> 00:37:45.200
USDC,

463
00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:46.320
and USDT.

464
00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:50.960
And you also offer debit credit card. Do a lot of people do debit credit card?

465
00:37:51.305 --> 00:37:52.685
It's it's pretty low,

466
00:37:52.985 --> 00:37:54.285
but but not nothing.

467
00:37:54.985 --> 00:38:03.165
And I think it's one of those that could really pop off if we get, like, the right tweet from the right person or the right I don't know.

468
00:38:04.220 --> 00:38:11.020
Because everybody has most people in the West have credit cards. And Yeah. As you said the standard. Are the people with a lightning wallet,

469
00:38:11.420 --> 00:38:13.040
around aside from us,

470
00:38:13.579 --> 00:38:14.079
Bitcoiners.

471
00:38:14.619 --> 00:38:19.040
So do you have a lot of fraud that you have to deal with? Because this is kind of a classic chargeback,

472
00:38:20.275 --> 00:38:23.175
part of the story. Right? Like, I'm I'm interesting thing.

473
00:38:24.435 --> 00:38:28.375
As I said, the credit card payments are not that high, but we have had

474
00:38:28.675 --> 00:38:33.175
several instances where Stripe will send me an email and say, like, hey,

475
00:38:34.290 --> 00:38:39.110
this payment that happened a month ago, we might have to, like, take your money back. And it's like

476
00:38:39.570 --> 00:38:44.630
it it just proves to me, like, that this this isn't you know, it's it's it's Right.

477
00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:49.510
It's bullshit, like, how they can just steal your money back after an entire month,

478
00:38:50.075 --> 00:38:54.015
and it just kind of adds fuel to the fire that crypto and and,

479
00:38:54.795 --> 00:39:02.734
Bitcoin Lightning are the way to go in terms of, accepting payments because I've never had a single chargeback on Lightning. No. It's impossible. I mean,

480
00:39:03.890 --> 00:39:05.990
it's a it's a classic chargeback

481
00:39:06.450 --> 00:39:07.510
business risk

482
00:39:07.890 --> 00:39:10.470
for this particular use case because you're providing

483
00:39:10.770 --> 00:39:11.270
compute.

484
00:39:12.210 --> 00:39:28.395
Like, the it's gone. Like, you've already provided it. There's no you can't claw back the goods. You can't wait to see if there's a chargeback or not. It's weird, though, because the few times that it's happened, I'll go and I'll look at the user that that or the the credit ID that loaded.

485
00:39:28.855 --> 00:39:29.355
And

486
00:39:30.069 --> 00:39:41.369
I don't think any of the times had they ever spent their entire balance. So it's I don't know what's going on there. But I mean, maybe you haven't actually gotten hit with a fraud, like, a fraud wave yet. You're just getting

487
00:39:41.829 --> 00:39:43.049
users that had

488
00:39:45.345 --> 00:40:00.680
regret for signing up for the service and just like issue. There was just some machine learning red flag that was the most positive or something. Yeah. I mean, that could become a major problem for you if you actually get scale on the credit card side. Yeah. It could. I understand. It's a trade off.

489
00:40:01.140 --> 00:40:07.000
On the day that that happens, I'll be happy to tweet about it because this is a yeah. I think chargebacks

490
00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:11.585
are a huge problem. Like, I mean, I guess they have some some

491
00:40:12.045 --> 00:40:16.305
advantages, and there are reasons they added them. But I think if, like,

492
00:40:16.605 --> 00:40:25.470
if if if you went back to the nineteen seventies when they initiated this thing, like, I think Visa, Mastercard, they had no idea the cost that chargebacks

493
00:40:25.770 --> 00:40:27.950
were going to introduce into their systems,

494
00:40:28.970 --> 00:40:33.630
especially in the age of the Internet where, like, you know, fucking fraud is everywhere.

495
00:40:34.570 --> 00:40:36.110
I think they would really rethink,

496
00:40:37.130 --> 00:40:40.994
the fact that, you know, they would make payments final. And

497
00:40:41.295 --> 00:40:46.895
and that's why I think a lot of the the the crypto payments happening that are instantly settled, that's

498
00:40:47.295 --> 00:40:48.435
it's a huge advantage.

499
00:40:49.295 --> 00:40:53.714
And I think that's gonna be in the same way that I'm clawing away at subscriptions,

500
00:40:54.095 --> 00:41:00.390
I think crypto is clawing away at Visa, Mastercard because chargebacks are like a really big thorn in their side.

501
00:41:00.769 --> 00:41:06.390
Yeah. I mean, it's actually the merchant. I also I mean, I just think it's a better payment experience from the user point of view,

502
00:41:07.089 --> 00:41:18.585
just from, like, a UX point of view. Yeah. Even when you're a user and you make a credit card payment and it goes through and both you and the business are happy, there's still a fee involved

503
00:41:19.045 --> 00:41:21.625
that reflects the amount of fraud that's happening

504
00:41:22.030 --> 00:41:27.550
across the network. Like, when you that 3% that we all hear about, a big chunk of that 3%

505
00:41:27.550 --> 00:41:29.490
is because of all this fraud mitigation,

506
00:41:30.510 --> 00:41:36.770
that these companies have to put up with. So Yeah. They're social they're effectively socializing the I mean, it's a

507
00:41:37.615 --> 00:41:38.115
it's

508
00:41:38.735 --> 00:41:43.235
a they're socializing the cost. They're they're spreading it out. They're doing a risk reward adjustment

509
00:41:43.535 --> 00:41:44.435
to make profit.

510
00:41:45.295 --> 00:41:48.355
I see Gary Krause in the comments, rider or die freak,

511
00:41:48.975 --> 00:41:50.275
asking about eCash.

512
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:57.099
What are your thoughts on that front? I assume he's talking about using eCash actually internally

513
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.060
to try and add additional privacy to the system.

514
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:01.660
Yeah. So

515
00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:05.020
I'm not an eCash expert, but I've been learning a bit more.

516
00:42:06.065 --> 00:42:15.765
A lot of the ecash aficionados have come to me and asked for me to add this. There is routes that are out there, which I'm sure some some users are also familiar with, which uses the ecash tokens.

517
00:42:16.145 --> 00:42:18.305
So what you get when you add ecash,

518
00:42:19.830 --> 00:42:23.370
as far as I understand, is it basically makes it so that

519
00:42:23.670 --> 00:42:24.170
PPQ

520
00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:37.035
so right now, when a user makes deposits $10, they get a credit ID associated with them. So I can actually link If I wanted to, I could link all of the users' queries together, and I could see, like, are trusting

521
00:42:37.335 --> 00:42:45.830
you. Yeah. And I could I could say this person who ran five queries on Tuesday and then four queries on Wednesday and whatever. But with the eCash,

522
00:42:46.130 --> 00:42:50.790
it becomes very it it becomes anonymized, basically, where you can't even tell,

523
00:42:53.170 --> 00:42:59.590
you know, who who's even among your credit IDs, which credit ID is making that query. So there is a price to gain

524
00:43:00.085 --> 00:43:01.145
by adding that.

525
00:43:01.445 --> 00:43:08.185
The problem with ECash is is the same problem as Lightning, only it's magnified by 10 x is that, like,

526
00:43:10.085 --> 00:43:14.060
not many people hold ECash to pay with it. Right? And

527
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:15.900
so, like, I even tried

528
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:20.300
to do Routester myself, and I was like, okay. I wanna go to Routester.

529
00:43:20.680 --> 00:43:27.340
I wanna, like, try this thing out. Oh, I don't have ecash tokens. Where the hell do I get ecash? No. But I think I think the point is

530
00:43:27.655 --> 00:43:30.235
for you to replace credits internally

531
00:43:30.535 --> 00:43:35.275
with ecash. So, like, I pay with lightning or credit card or Monero or whatever,

532
00:43:35.575 --> 00:43:37.195
and then you give me PPQ

533
00:43:37.975 --> 00:43:40.235
ecash tokens, right, that you manage.

534
00:43:41.300 --> 00:43:45.080
I'm issuing them to the user. Yeah. That is another way to do it as well.

535
00:43:45.540 --> 00:43:50.520
And then that way and that way, then I would have the bearer tokens. I would have the ecash bearer tokens.

536
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:55.635
Right? And then it disconnects me to a degree. It reduces trust in you.

537
00:43:56.035 --> 00:43:56.535
Yes.

538
00:43:56.835 --> 00:43:58.695
That is true. Trust model. Yeah.

539
00:43:59.155 --> 00:44:02.215
Yeah. That now that I think about it, that is,

540
00:44:02.835 --> 00:44:14.000
there is a distinguished there's different ways you could use eCash, and the better way is, yeah, you don't have users bringing you eCash tokens Don't do that. Giving them eCash tokens when they make a lightning deposit.

541
00:44:15.100 --> 00:44:24.480
And and that improves, like so the trade off there is additional complexity on your side, particularly when you first set it up because you said you're not an eCash expert where there's about 10.

542
00:44:25.164 --> 00:44:26.944
So there's, like, not that many.

543
00:44:27.325 --> 00:44:29.585
I will say most of them are,

544
00:44:31.325 --> 00:44:33.265
you know, vibe coding aficionados.

545
00:44:33.565 --> 00:44:38.944
So, like, I'm sure a bunch of them would be willing to help out, like, specifically their leader, Cali.

546
00:44:40.070 --> 00:44:40.390
It's

547
00:44:41.030 --> 00:44:44.730
it had Cali reach out to me a couple of times. And so,

548
00:44:45.030 --> 00:44:47.610
yes, it is something that that I I would,

549
00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:50.630
I would look into and and and and,

550
00:44:51.110 --> 00:44:54.330
you know, it it's just a matter of, like, is it gonna be next month,

551
00:44:55.045 --> 00:44:55.545
or,

552
00:44:56.645 --> 00:44:59.945
maybe two, three months from now? I I don't know. Fair enough.

553
00:45:00.245 --> 00:45:04.645
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I mean, I think the argument isn't really this isn't a,

554
00:45:09.390 --> 00:45:12.130
Bitcoiners pushing for perfect kind of thing.

555
00:45:12.910 --> 00:45:20.210
I mean, I think long term, you're in probably in a better position if you don't have the liability of having so much information on users.

556
00:45:20.515 --> 00:45:28.295
Right? Like, if PPQ is successful at scale and you can actually connect the dots on users, you're gonna get tons of requests and,

557
00:45:28.595 --> 00:45:30.935
you'll have tons of information liability,

558
00:45:31.395 --> 00:45:43.250
which we've seen with every VPN provider. Like, I can't imagine I would that's not a business I would ever wanna be in. It's like the hosted VPN provider business. And so if you can reduce some of that data liability, data exposure,

559
00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:47.250
it's probably a big win for you long term if you see scale.

560
00:45:47.875 --> 00:45:50.215
That, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually.

561
00:45:51.555 --> 00:45:54.295
Yeah. I I I will definitely think about that.

562
00:45:54.995 --> 00:46:00.215
I don't know if the answer, though, if if if a regular comes to you and you say, like,

563
00:46:00.650 --> 00:46:19.555
sorry. I don't have the information that you're looking for. Like, I think most of the time, their knee jerk reaction is like, well, since you don't have it at all, then we're shutting you down. Well, no. They I mean, I don't think they could shut you down. I think they could try and pass additional regulations. I mean, it just adds it adds some level of friction. I mean, we see this with stuff like signal,

564
00:46:19.935 --> 00:46:21.395
right, where signal does

565
00:46:22.095 --> 00:46:25.635
respond to government requests. Just the data they hand over

566
00:46:26.095 --> 00:46:34.030
is, like, basically nothing. They they, like, hand over a phone number. They can hand over an I IP addresses that connect to their servers.

567
00:46:35.210 --> 00:46:39.150
But that's basically it. They don't have metadata, and they don't have the message contents.

568
00:46:39.690 --> 00:46:40.190
Yeah.

569
00:46:40.810 --> 00:46:43.150
And so what happens what happens is

570
00:46:43.610 --> 00:46:45.630
is for the high value targets,

571
00:46:46.425 --> 00:46:57.325
governments just break into their phone or their computer and then get the signal messages that way, which they could do for this too. And so, presumably, it kinda plays out the same way where they just go that route.

572
00:46:58.025 --> 00:47:00.045
They don't give you too much trouble.

573
00:47:00.730 --> 00:47:08.030
And if they wanna add regulation on top, they can add regulation. The advantage of the ECash model, at least I mean, Cali's become a pretty good friend of mine.

574
00:47:09.690 --> 00:47:13.310
Is that, like, he even though it is adds a level of complexity,

575
00:47:14.225 --> 00:47:22.645
it is a use case that he's thought a lot about. And so they do basically have, like, an SDK, and it's relatively easy to implement.

576
00:47:23.025 --> 00:47:29.370
Yeah. I mean, his dream is, like, Amazon gift cards being e cash, like, their own internal e cash, so you have some level of privacy

577
00:47:30.570 --> 00:47:31.710
attached to it. Yeah.

578
00:47:32.650 --> 00:47:33.610
The one last,

579
00:47:34.330 --> 00:47:35.850
I do I do really,

580
00:47:36.730 --> 00:47:37.550
take point

581
00:47:38.010 --> 00:47:39.390
with what you're saying about,

582
00:47:40.730 --> 00:47:49.215
having too much information and and that being becoming a liability. The one last pushback I'll I'll make is that it's actually nice to have

583
00:47:50.235 --> 00:47:52.895
some level of metadata on users because

584
00:47:53.435 --> 00:47:54.175
to know

585
00:47:54.555 --> 00:48:00.175
what countries my users are coming from helps me in terms of marketing and business development,

586
00:48:01.210 --> 00:48:02.390
to know what you know,

587
00:48:03.810 --> 00:48:14.310
if if they if a user comes like, one question I have now is, like, how much value is adding all these media models giving me? Media models like image generation generation, like,

588
00:48:15.095 --> 00:48:25.434
if I can pull a new user in because they can do some cool image model, but then I can transition them to to using me on a daily basis for text queries or whatever,

589
00:48:26.055 --> 00:48:26.555
then

590
00:48:26.934 --> 00:48:41.000
it's worth it to add more image and video models. Right? So if I can actually see that about a particular credit ID where they come in, they make a they make a couple of image queries, and then I can see that they transition. That helps me from a business development standpoint.

591
00:48:42.660 --> 00:48:49.445
I get it, though. It's not perfectly private. And so, you know, there's there's a gray area between, like

592
00:48:50.545 --> 00:48:53.525
but it's It's trade offs. It's trade offs all the way down.

593
00:48:53.905 --> 00:48:57.345
Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to build a product without having

594
00:48:58.160 --> 00:49:03.220
With knowing nothing about your users. Yeah. User I've seen that firsthand, you know, particularly

595
00:49:03.520 --> 00:49:10.500
on the ten thirty one side and some of the businesses we've invested in. It makes it really difficult. You're just throwing estimates around.

596
00:49:10.955 --> 00:49:21.535
And and I don't even in most cases, I don't even get the email address of my users. So, like, I can't email them and say, like, hey. Why did you leave our platform? Like, what what did we do badly?

597
00:49:21.835 --> 00:49:24.335
Like, I have this little customer chat widget

598
00:49:24.789 --> 00:49:25.849
that is actually

599
00:49:26.230 --> 00:49:30.250
really awesome because that is my primary way that I'm talking to customers.

600
00:49:31.109 --> 00:49:36.069
But aside from that, like, yeah, I don't even have emails most of the time. And so it's really hard to to

601
00:49:36.710 --> 00:49:38.805
if I didn't have that customer chat

602
00:49:39.204 --> 00:49:43.704
thing, there's literally hundreds of bugs that users have reported to me,

603
00:49:44.484 --> 00:49:48.585
using that. And and it and it shows that, like, you have to have

604
00:49:49.045 --> 00:49:51.305
some level of connection with your users,

605
00:49:52.530 --> 00:49:53.890
in in, you know,

606
00:49:54.370 --> 00:49:56.870
I yeah. So it's really important.

607
00:49:57.890 --> 00:49:58.950
Yeah. Fair enough.

608
00:50:01.810 --> 00:50:03.510
Yeah. I mean, you could also

609
00:50:03.810 --> 00:50:05.430
you could just make it optional

610
00:50:05.825 --> 00:50:08.245
if you wanted to. You could give people

611
00:50:08.545 --> 00:50:10.085
a you could give people a discount

612
00:50:10.785 --> 00:50:15.765
too if they if they stay in the, you know, less private, non e cash model.

613
00:50:16.385 --> 00:50:18.725
No matter what, you still have the IP addresses

614
00:50:19.025 --> 00:50:21.940
of the you still get some data. Right? Like, it doesn't

615
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:24.579
Honestly, I haven't thought

616
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:36.500
about exactly what data I would be losing that hard, but that was a question that I posed to Now the big thing you would lose is user behavior data, which is very helpful in product iteration.

617
00:50:37.035 --> 00:50:39.214
The other thing is you can iterate the product

618
00:50:39.515 --> 00:50:47.055
without it be and then you could turn on the private privacy preserving. And maybe maybe three months is too soon. Maybe it's

619
00:50:47.355 --> 00:50:56.860
maybe it's eighteen months, twenty four months. When you have a general idea of what the average user flow looks like, you're not losing as much. You've already iterated on the product more.

620
00:50:57.160 --> 00:51:01.580
Yeah. There's Yeah. Always iteration to do, though, but, I I mean, I hear you. Yeah.

621
00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:02.860
Yeah.

622
00:51:03.455 --> 00:51:04.275
I just,

623
00:51:04.735 --> 00:51:07.795
is probably my single biggest concern with the AI

624
00:51:09.295 --> 00:51:09.795
acceleration

625
00:51:10.815 --> 00:51:11.315
is

626
00:51:13.135 --> 00:51:14.035
the disadvantage

627
00:51:14.815 --> 00:51:15.315
that

628
00:51:16.350 --> 00:51:16.850
privacy

629
00:51:17.870 --> 00:51:18.370
like,

630
00:51:19.310 --> 00:51:24.530
for all of digital humanity or for all of our lives, we're probably relatively similar in age.

631
00:51:25.150 --> 00:51:26.450
If you wanted to

632
00:51:26.830 --> 00:51:31.250
have privacy in the digital age and have freedom in the digital age, you were at a disadvantage.

633
00:51:32.484 --> 00:51:32.984
And,

634
00:51:33.925 --> 00:51:35.545
one of the cool things about Bitcoin,

635
00:51:36.165 --> 00:51:39.385
to be honest, is is that it actually flips the script on that.

636
00:51:39.925 --> 00:51:56.270
Someone who uses Bitcoin privately and in freedom oriented way actually has a lot of advantages over someone who just owns ETF or owns MSTR or something like that. So it's like a natural advantage that you have actually putting in the work and and doing that. But on the AI side, it really accelerates it. It's like,

637
00:51:56.650 --> 00:52:01.150
if if I'm competing with someone in the job market and they have access to chat GPT

638
00:52:01.875 --> 00:52:15.015
and they're using it in the least private way possible and feeding in all of their private information into it, that that model and that agent is gonna become so much more powerful to them. They're just gonna give them almost superpowers compared to the guy who's using the freedom focused one.

639
00:52:15.330 --> 00:52:18.230
Yeah. And it becomes this massive data collection

640
00:52:18.770 --> 00:52:19.910
hellhole. Like, it's

641
00:52:20.690 --> 00:52:22.070
the first real model

642
00:52:23.250 --> 00:52:40.005
that incentivizes data collection on the Internet was the ad sales. Right? It was like, if you could track someone and you could sell their data to advertisers, you could monetize them better. It was like the your data cattle. Like, monetize the cattle as much as possible. This is the second major model. This is like the the second time in

643
00:52:40.305 --> 00:52:44.759
in digital human history where you where corporations have, like, a huge, huge incentive

644
00:52:45.460 --> 00:52:51.640
to to track people and collect as much data as possible and then train their models off of it, make them better, do all this other stuff.

645
00:52:52.339 --> 00:52:56.660
So it's just something I think about a lot. I'm not pretending like there's a perfect way to do it. But

646
00:52:57.494 --> 00:52:59.515
I mean, I think about it a lot too, and

647
00:53:00.694 --> 00:53:01.914
I haven't seen reasons

648
00:53:02.375 --> 00:53:05.275
yet to be super optimistic about it.

649
00:53:06.775 --> 00:53:07.275
Right.

650
00:53:08.295 --> 00:53:11.255
Which sucks. I think maybe maybe the

651
00:53:12.020 --> 00:53:18.119
maybe it is the fact that, like, you know, we did have DeepSeq, which came along, and it was a very Right. Good model.

652
00:53:18.740 --> 00:53:19.240
And

653
00:53:19.540 --> 00:53:22.119
so if we do continue to see,

654
00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:26.359
these open source models that are approaching the capability

655
00:53:26.660 --> 00:53:27.974
of of the proprietary models,

656
00:53:28.994 --> 00:53:30.295
then maybe there is,

657
00:53:30.915 --> 00:53:32.055
some hope in there.

658
00:53:32.595 --> 00:53:33.095
Okay.

659
00:53:33.635 --> 00:53:36.375
Yeah. I I think maybe maybe yeah.

660
00:53:36.755 --> 00:53:40.775
I'm just really theorizing here, but, like, there could be major incidents

661
00:53:41.075 --> 00:53:46.770
coming up in the future where, like, you know, we we have all sorts of data leaks nowadays. Right? Yeah. But,

662
00:53:47.869 --> 00:53:53.890
I mean, a lot of the time, I've never been impacted by a data leak myself. I'm sure were in the TransUnion,

663
00:53:54.990 --> 00:53:58.290
Social Security number thing where, like, every adult was.

664
00:53:58.704 --> 00:54:07.045
I'm sure I was, but I guess my point is is I never felt the impact of it. You know? Like, I never my identity was never stolen. Like, I know it's common, but

665
00:54:07.345 --> 00:54:11.605
what I'm trying to say is, like, maybe there will be an incident where, like,

666
00:54:12.190 --> 00:54:14.930
you know, a large number of people are substantially

667
00:54:15.310 --> 00:54:17.730
impacted, and then that's the moment that

668
00:54:18.030 --> 00:54:22.530
governments actually step in and enforce privacy or start to enforce privacy.

669
00:54:22.830 --> 00:54:30.545
But maybe I'm just being really crazy and and, that's never gonna happen. I don't know. But I'm just trying to think about how it could come about

670
00:54:30.845 --> 00:54:45.830
when what are the possible inflection points? I mean, I'll say the bull case in my mind is that the data leaks are gonna get worse and worse. And but rather than government stepping in, even though they should, I think it's a national security issue. But rather than government stepping in, I think,

671
00:54:46.210 --> 00:54:47.270
you know, you get

672
00:54:47.570 --> 00:54:50.790
you get a handful of new users that seek out the better methods.

673
00:54:51.090 --> 00:54:52.470
Now the question is,

674
00:54:53.255 --> 00:54:55.835
and you don't get most of them. Right? Like, we just saw,

675
00:54:57.015 --> 00:55:05.995
what the main DNA provider like, they got, like, sold to, like, the Chinese. They got a lot of they got everyone's DNA that provided it to, 21 and me.

676
00:55:07.010 --> 00:55:12.369
And, like, most people didn't bat an eye. But some people did, and some people were like, holy shit. I just doxed my entire

677
00:55:13.490 --> 00:55:13.970
Yeah.

678
00:55:14.609 --> 00:55:15.109
Genealogical

679
00:55:15.490 --> 00:55:15.990
branch.

680
00:55:18.050 --> 00:55:30.665
And but but then at that point, to have tools available to them so that they're not at a huge disadvantage, but they can still focus on the privacy freedom way, I think, is key. Because most of the time, they're at a disadvantage. Now I wanna be clear here.

681
00:55:31.045 --> 00:55:32.175
I'm not trying to,

682
00:55:33.600 --> 00:55:37.220
denigrate PPQ. I think actually PPQ right now is

683
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:43.540
one of the best tools someone in a freedom privacy focused way can use. And even without eCash,

684
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:52.655
like, I can log in with a VPN. And when I say log in, no login information whatsoever. Just pay with Lightning. I can do a set of prompts, and then I can just

685
00:55:52.955 --> 00:56:01.530
close that session and then do a new session from a different VPN later. And then I have similar privacy guarantees as if you were using eCash on your side.

686
00:56:02.070 --> 00:56:05.610
Yeah. So, like, it is the best way for me to use top end models

687
00:56:06.150 --> 00:56:09.130
in a privacy focused way if the user knows what they're doing.

688
00:56:09.590 --> 00:56:10.090
Yeah.

689
00:56:11.405 --> 00:56:18.385
So thank you for that. I'm like, I'd I I wanna be clear here that I'm not like Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I appreciate that. And and, yeah, yeah.

690
00:56:18.925 --> 00:56:22.865
Hot seat. We're trying to take the practical approach here, and

691
00:56:23.780 --> 00:56:26.180
I know that it's certainly not perfect. But,

692
00:56:26.900 --> 00:56:27.480
it's awesome.

693
00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:44.895
No. Quite frankly, it's awesome. So thank you. Yeah. Most people are appreciative, and and that's what keeps us going for sure. And I will say on the image generation side, you said, like, user behavior, does image generation bring you in? There's no other way for me to use, like, the top end image generation stuff.

694
00:56:45.595 --> 00:56:46.095
Exactly.

695
00:56:46.475 --> 00:56:48.335
There's no other way to use the software.

696
00:56:48.795 --> 00:56:49.855
Yeah. And

697
00:56:50.315 --> 00:56:55.615
it like, I don't use them for business stuff. I just use them because, like, I wanna create, like, shit posts or

698
00:56:55.970 --> 00:57:02.789
memes or whatever. Or, like, yeah, meme troll troll family members and friends and stuff like that. Exactly. So,

699
00:57:03.970 --> 00:57:09.190
and I it it took me like, you were the first time I ever got to use a real image generation model,

700
00:57:10.405 --> 00:57:14.164
because I refuse to, you know, I never sign I'm probably one of

701
00:57:14.964 --> 00:57:19.224
I mean, there's plenty of people that haven't, but I've never signed up for chat g p t or

702
00:57:20.085 --> 00:57:20.585
Yeah.

703
00:57:21.444 --> 00:57:23.464
Any of the major image generation

704
00:57:23.765 --> 00:57:24.984
proprietary models.

705
00:57:25.710 --> 00:57:26.210
Yeah.

706
00:57:27.710 --> 00:57:31.090
What else? I, I'm just kinda curious on your opinion

707
00:57:33.950 --> 00:57:34.450
on,

708
00:57:35.390 --> 00:57:36.369
like, the current

709
00:57:36.670 --> 00:57:40.530
state of Bitcoin. I mean, you were, like, the p two p

710
00:57:41.595 --> 00:57:42.095
guy.

711
00:57:42.715 --> 00:57:45.375
You were, like, the p two p freedom money guy,

712
00:57:46.635 --> 00:57:48.175
and you pivoted to AI.

713
00:57:49.115 --> 00:57:54.415
And then meanwhile, we have it's like paper Bitcoin somewhere. We got ETFs and MSTR and stuff.

714
00:57:55.210 --> 00:57:58.030
How are you thinking but we're also at all time highs.

715
00:57:58.410 --> 00:58:00.590
More people using Freedom Money than ever before.

716
00:58:01.610 --> 00:58:04.270
How do you think about where we're currently at in Bitcoin?

717
00:58:05.210 --> 00:58:08.030
Yeah. It's I'm I have a big mess of thoughts.

718
00:58:09.135 --> 00:58:10.835
Yeah. I on the one hand,

719
00:58:12.895 --> 00:58:14.115
I think I underestimated

720
00:58:14.415 --> 00:58:15.715
the amount that

721
00:58:16.495 --> 00:58:16.995
the,

722
00:58:17.375 --> 00:58:18.355
you know, corporatization

723
00:58:18.735 --> 00:58:21.395
of Bitcoin would, like, help its price.

724
00:58:22.680 --> 00:58:23.500
I always

725
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:25.660
thought that it would be the

726
00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:26.940
kind of,

727
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:29.180
medium of exchange.

728
00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:32.460
Everybody kind of slowly grassroots adopting it,

729
00:58:33.240 --> 00:58:33.800
type thing,

730
00:58:35.685 --> 00:58:42.665
which hasn't popped off yet. And but I'm still I'm still in that corner, obviously, because I'm building PPQ. It's,

731
00:58:43.285 --> 00:58:46.985
hugely dependent on the success of Bitcoin as medium of exchange.

732
00:58:48.780 --> 00:58:55.840
Yeah. I don't know. Like I said, it's a big mess of thoughts about Bitcoin. I think that a lot of the p two p stuff went to stablecoins.

733
00:58:57.580 --> 00:58:59.680
And I think that, like, this gigantic

734
00:58:59.980 --> 00:59:00.480
plurality

735
00:59:00.860 --> 00:59:02.400
of all of these cryptos,

736
00:59:03.345 --> 00:59:04.085
they accomplish

737
00:59:05.185 --> 00:59:06.405
for a lot of users

738
00:59:07.345 --> 00:59:08.965
the goal of the user,

739
00:59:09.425 --> 00:59:11.845
and it doesn't necessarily require Bitcoin

740
00:59:12.305 --> 00:59:22.190
a lot of the time. So when they wanna do when a user wants to do they're they're living in a developing country and they wanna do a cross border transfer. Bitcoin is one option among literally thousands,

741
00:59:23.130 --> 00:59:27.550
and and stablecoin is probably the way that they're going to do it. Specifically Tether?

742
00:59:28.105 --> 00:59:32.045
Yeah. Tether or even yeah. There's there's a there's a bunch. But,

743
00:59:33.785 --> 00:59:34.605
yeah. So

744
00:59:35.705 --> 00:59:37.245
in the way I pictured

745
00:59:38.105 --> 00:59:45.859
this journey on Bitcoin going is I always thought that, like like, Bitcoin is is kind of built for the financial

746
00:59:46.160 --> 00:59:55.059
oppression. Nuclear winner is kind of what I like to to I always thought the governments were gonna crack down hard, and we would need this very decentralized

747
00:59:55.359 --> 00:59:55.859
network,

748
00:59:57.015 --> 01:00:08.075
that that survived hard times. And we would need this lightning network, which is very difficult to build out and very hard for users to learn how to use, and there's so many technical,

749
01:00:08.934 --> 01:00:09.755
trade offs,

750
01:00:10.490 --> 01:00:12.190
that are happening or technical.

751
01:00:13.690 --> 01:00:17.550
It's very conservative and because it wants to guarantee that sovereignty.

752
01:00:19.290 --> 01:00:19.790
But

753
01:00:20.809 --> 01:00:22.970
the the end result is, like, governments

754
01:00:23.445 --> 01:00:37.385
I guess they tried to crack down on in some degree, but, like, they were never really that successful. And so what we're left with is, like, there's literally thousands of shit coins out there. There's all these stable coins that were never cracked down upon, and now stable coins are actually becoming

755
01:00:38.090 --> 01:00:42.590
important for government, the US government in particular, because it's, you know,

756
01:00:43.290 --> 01:00:45.070
extending the timeline of the dollar.

757
01:00:46.490 --> 01:00:55.434
So, yeah, I don't know. Bitcoin has gone in directions that I I guess in some ways I was right about, but in other ways, I was very wrong about. So,

758
01:00:55.894 --> 01:01:01.434
yeah, I don't know. A mess of thoughts, like I said. I mean, the way I think about it is

759
01:01:02.135 --> 01:01:03.194
is you really,

760
01:01:04.850 --> 01:01:09.110
I think it just really comes down to the extremes. Right? So, like, I think in,

761
01:01:10.690 --> 01:01:11.910
permissible times,

762
01:01:12.290 --> 01:01:12.790
right,

763
01:01:13.650 --> 01:01:15.990
and you can get around the, like, the Tron,

764
01:01:16.905 --> 01:01:27.085
Like, Tron can get away with just running, like, seven servers on Yeah. Corporate cloud servers and send Tether around the world and and be, like, the number one medium of exchange.

765
01:01:27.625 --> 01:01:28.685
Like, that works.

766
01:01:29.100 --> 01:01:32.640
Or you need to have, like, cockroach money, which is Bitcoin.

767
01:01:33.020 --> 01:01:34.560
Like, all the stuff in the middle

768
01:01:35.020 --> 01:01:36.400
is pretty much useless.

769
01:01:37.340 --> 01:01:37.840
Yeah.

770
01:01:38.140 --> 01:01:47.845
And and so it's like you owe Bitcoin is the safe haven. We have it no matter what. When there's no other option, you have Bitcoin. And then the majority of people are gonna use Tether, which is, you know,

771
01:01:48.305 --> 01:01:49.125
more or less,

772
01:01:49.425 --> 01:01:55.045
like, being indoctrinated as, like, almost a quasi CBDC, but, like, the best possible version of a CBDC

773
01:01:55.905 --> 01:01:56.725
because it's

774
01:01:57.425 --> 01:01:58.885
corporate run by Bitcoiners

775
01:01:59.265 --> 01:01:59.765
with

776
01:02:00.210 --> 01:02:08.950
that try and push back against seizing funds and whatnot, but still completely transparent and tied to the dollar. And everything in the middle is just, like, caught in no man's land.

777
01:02:09.330 --> 01:02:13.665
Yeah. And that's kind of the reality we're in right now. And then 99%

778
01:02:13.665 --> 01:02:17.605
of new users that actually want Bitcoin price exposure are buying MSTR

779
01:02:17.985 --> 01:02:18.485
or

780
01:02:19.105 --> 01:02:23.125
Do you think it's 99 or you think it's really that high? I think it's

781
01:02:23.425 --> 01:02:29.180
I think it's quite high. I mean, in terms of in terms of dollar amount, not in terms of users. Yeah. Yeah.

782
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:31.260
Like, in terms of actual

783
01:02:31.720 --> 01:02:32.220
volumes,

784
01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:35.800
probably it's, you know, over 98%.

785
01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:39.180
Maybe I'm being provocative, but it's probably over 98%.

786
01:02:40.145 --> 01:02:46.325
But in terms of users, in terms of number of users, maybe we still have them beat because we have, like, the developing world and

787
01:02:47.025 --> 01:02:48.805
global permissionless markets.

788
01:02:51.105 --> 01:02:58.050
But in but but a lot of them are probably coming in with with smaller sums. Right? If someone's gonna allocate a $100,000,000 into Bitcoin,

789
01:02:58.910 --> 01:03:00.370
probably coming into iBit.

790
01:03:01.070 --> 01:03:01.570
Yeah.

791
01:03:03.150 --> 01:03:03.650
Yeah.

792
01:03:04.350 --> 01:03:08.850
I don't know. It's yeah. I think you you said a lot of those things well, but,

793
01:03:09.705 --> 01:03:20.445
yeah, who knows who knows where we're at. And then my bull case my bull case is, I think, we have more people using Bitcoin as Freedom Money than ever before. Like, the number of people that are making

794
01:03:21.720 --> 01:03:32.380
self custody lightning payments higher than it's ever been. And the cool part is it's hard for us to calculate what that number is. The number of people self custodying Bitcoin, higher than it's ever been. Percentage wise,

795
01:03:33.160 --> 01:03:35.795
lower than it's been in the past. Yeah. But,

796
01:03:36.175 --> 01:03:38.994
in terms of absolute numbers, that number goes up.

797
01:03:39.694 --> 01:03:40.435
It's true.

798
01:03:40.974 --> 01:03:41.954
And and I

799
01:03:42.255 --> 01:03:49.555
I think that's the fact that people say, like, well, we don't know how many lightning transactions are happening. That's a little bit of a I think,

800
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:52.220
people are

801
01:03:52.920 --> 01:04:04.395
hoping that there's more than there are. There probably aren't. Yeah. But as I was the guy at Bitrefill, and Bitrefill is actually an excellent metric on, like because we accept all these cryptos and Yeah.

802
01:04:05.275 --> 01:04:09.455
And so we can actually see, like, how many users are actually bringing us lightning payments.

803
01:04:09.755 --> 01:04:19.375
And the answer is exactly what you said. It's in absolute numbers. It's never been higher. But in proportional numbers, it's actually, like, being beat out by a lot of other cryptos.

804
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:22.740
So that's kind of a good news and bad news situation.

805
01:04:24.240 --> 01:04:27.940
But, yeah, at the end of the day, I think I think Lightning is still,

806
01:04:29.119 --> 01:04:30.260
slowly but steadily

807
01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:33.059
improving, getting better, gaining users.

808
01:04:34.475 --> 01:04:37.615
I don't know. Is it enough to kind of keep up with

809
01:04:38.075 --> 01:04:40.175
with a lot of the other stuff that's happening?

810
01:04:40.635 --> 01:05:06.255
I don't know. And and, again, it it goes back to the question of, like, is this other stuff gonna be ever cracked down upon, like the Yeah. Tether on Tron type thing? I don't know. Probably not, though. I would I would say less likely than it was three years ago. Well, I mean, I think the cool thing about the vision of Bitcoin as, like, a Bitcoin on chain being, like, a foundational protocol layer that itself is cockroach

811
01:05:07.275 --> 01:05:10.255
type of trade off model, like, trying to survive a nuclear winter,

812
01:05:12.795 --> 01:05:45.900
is key because then you can build stuff on top of of it. And and Lightning itself took a certain set of trade offs to be censorship resistant and robust. And we just really haven't seen, besides Liquid, which kinda just never found product market fit, we've never seen, like, a more centralized trust model. And now there's some things being experimented on with, like, Arc and Spark that are coincidentally named the same, that rhyme with each other, or Cashew even. Right? Like, oh, how do we make more privacy preserving custodians? And so then all of a sudden, we could see we could see things go down to more centralized

813
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:51.900
this like, maybe there's there's there's more usage on the centralized stuff.

814
01:05:52.440 --> 01:05:58.300
But at the end of the day, if shit hits the fan, we can pull back to, like, the actual cockroach stuff.

815
01:05:58.645 --> 01:06:00.025
Maybe that's the bull case.

816
01:06:00.485 --> 01:06:08.825
I don't know. Is I also, like, I'm glad we're not getting cracked down on as much as I assumed. Like, I thought Bitcoin was gonna be straight up illegal in America in, like, 2017.

817
01:06:09.775 --> 01:06:10.275
So

818
01:06:11.780 --> 01:06:13.480
I still think it's the best timeline,

819
01:06:13.780 --> 01:06:14.520
and we'll

820
01:06:14.820 --> 01:06:16.200
kinda see how it all

821
01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:18.119
kinda see how it all plays out.

822
01:06:18.420 --> 01:06:20.040
My bowl case is, like,

823
01:06:20.340 --> 01:06:21.220
I think it's,

824
01:06:22.740 --> 01:06:24.520
yeah, it's it's Bitcoin is

825
01:06:25.464 --> 01:06:32.285
its monetary properties. It's it's not the medium of exchange stuff that is really popping off. It's it's the fact that

826
01:06:32.744 --> 01:06:33.224
it is,

827
01:06:33.785 --> 01:06:36.045
competing as this beautiful, like,

828
01:06:37.145 --> 01:06:38.285
finite finance,

829
01:06:38.665 --> 01:06:39.645
finite supply,

830
01:06:41.060 --> 01:06:45.720
money on a on a global stage where everything else is just infinite,

831
01:06:46.740 --> 01:06:47.240
printing.

832
01:06:48.340 --> 01:06:51.800
I that's something I never that's the angle that I never really

833
01:06:52.420 --> 01:06:56.585
gave enough weight to, but I think it's totally starting to play out now where

834
01:06:56.885 --> 01:07:05.945
and I think, yeah, the the really great thing about one of the really great things about Bitcoin also is that it makes you start to ask questions about the fiat

835
01:07:06.325 --> 01:07:09.865
system and how it runs. Because until Bitcoin came along,

836
01:07:10.690 --> 01:07:18.790
nobody really ever asked questions. I'm like, okay. So you're just making money out of thin air. Like, what are the rules for that? Like, do we even know

837
01:07:19.170 --> 01:07:24.225
how much money you're printing? It says here you're printing this much, but then you have all these, like,

838
01:07:24.545 --> 01:07:25.045
classified

839
01:07:25.505 --> 01:07:34.645
budgets that are unaccounted for. So you're probably printing a lot more than you say you're printing and, like, the the holes just start getting poked into their

840
01:07:35.105 --> 01:07:38.165
their their presentation of what fiat is.

841
01:07:39.180 --> 01:07:40.960
And and I think I think they're

842
01:07:41.820 --> 01:07:47.599
absolutely starting to lose the argument on, like, you know, before they could kind of just sit back and say, like,

843
01:07:47.900 --> 01:07:54.505
yeah. We we have this fiat thing, and we have all these, like, balancing mechanisms for it. And it's too complicated for you to understand,

844
01:07:54.884 --> 01:07:56.424
so just don't worry about it.

845
01:07:56.964 --> 01:08:00.664
But now because people are learning about, Finite money,

846
01:08:01.444 --> 01:08:05.704
and and the advantages of it, they're starting to ask questions about all these, like, bullshit,

847
01:08:06.840 --> 01:08:11.580
tricks that that the fiat system makes, and I think they're losing those arguments a lot.

848
01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:15.980
I love it when, like, the European Central Bank, like,

849
01:08:16.520 --> 01:08:19.900
post something on Twitter nowadays. It's, like, 98%

850
01:08:20.385 --> 01:08:22.165
angry Bitcoiners, like, just,

851
01:08:23.105 --> 01:08:27.285
telling them telling them, like, all of the lies that they're saying. And,

852
01:08:27.745 --> 01:08:42.580
yeah. I think they're losing the the the narrative war, the the story war. Yeah. I mean, even the term fiat, like, the term fiat was popularized by Bitcoiners. Like, that was not a term that was, like, in Yeah. Normal discourse and has become such recently,

853
01:08:43.440 --> 01:08:47.300
or, like, the last few years mostly because of the normalization from Bitcoiners.

854
01:08:49.065 --> 01:08:51.885
I mean, and just to bring it back, by the way, when I said, like,

855
01:08:52.825 --> 01:08:58.605
we don't know exactly how many people are making Bitcoin transactions or whatever, I actually like, I think it's on the lower end. Like,

856
01:08:59.385 --> 01:09:01.085
my question here's a question.

857
01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:05.900
Just spitballing. No one's gonna hold you to it, and, also, no one can ever prove that you're wrong.

858
01:09:07.640 --> 01:09:10.700
How many Bitcoiners do you think exist in the world

859
01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:12.620
that own

860
01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:13.900
more than

861
01:09:15.320 --> 01:09:16.460
a half of Bitcoin

862
01:09:17.205 --> 01:09:24.264
in self custody. So more than I used to do this with a Bitcoin, but now we're at a 120. So I'll do a half of Bitcoin,

863
01:09:24.645 --> 01:09:25.864
$60,000

864
01:09:25.925 --> 01:09:29.400
in self custody worth of Bitcoin. How many Bitcoins do you think exist?

865
01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:34.679
Well, it can't be over 42,000,000.

866
01:09:34.679 --> 01:09:37.739
Right? So because that would be more than Right.

867
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:39.980
So I would say,

868
01:09:41.719 --> 01:09:43.739
yeah, I would say maybe 5,000,000.

869
01:09:44.245 --> 01:09:45.785
I think it's less than that.

870
01:09:46.325 --> 01:09:52.344
So if you ask if you ask Probably is. Yeah. If you open PPQ and ask

871
01:09:52.725 --> 01:09:53.225
Grok

872
01:09:53.685 --> 01:09:54.185
three,

873
01:09:55.364 --> 01:09:57.225
how many own more than one Bitcoin,

874
01:09:57.650 --> 01:10:00.290
It comes up to a 100 to 250,000,

875
01:10:00.290 --> 01:10:02.389
and it gives you, like, all its reasoning or whatever.

876
01:10:02.849 --> 01:10:03.349
Okay.

877
01:10:03.889 --> 01:10:05.510
Yeah. It's possible. Yeah.

878
01:10:05.969 --> 01:10:11.829
I think it's I think it's less than a million. What? What what is the point that you're driving at here?

879
01:10:12.815 --> 01:10:15.395
My point is is, first of all, it's cool that we have no idea.

880
01:10:15.695 --> 01:10:17.395
Just making a guess. Yeah.

881
01:10:17.935 --> 01:10:24.655
But my second point is is when Sailor says, like, there's a 100,000,000 Bitcoiners, it's like but it's just bullshit. Like, there's no

882
01:10:25.620 --> 01:10:27.880
we're still very small. Like, it's mostly

883
01:10:29.060 --> 01:10:30.600
a small vocal minority.

884
01:10:31.540 --> 01:10:40.520
Yeah. It's like, animals. You know, like, when you're, like, watching, like, National Geographic or something and they they show an animal, like, puff themselves up and look like a big bad beast.

885
01:10:41.365 --> 01:10:42.985
Like, we're a small town.

886
01:10:43.285 --> 01:10:49.865
We're not even a city. Like, a city of a city of 200,000 people isn't a city. It's a large town

887
01:10:50.325 --> 01:10:50.825
Yep.

888
01:10:51.845 --> 01:10:54.745
Of actual Bitcoiners of of size.

889
01:10:55.060 --> 01:11:00.920
This was a tweet that Marty put out a few years ago that really resonated with me. It said something about how, like,

890
01:11:01.380 --> 01:11:05.320
you know, 8% of colonials actually participated in the revolutionary

891
01:11:05.620 --> 01:11:06.840
war. So

892
01:11:07.405 --> 01:11:09.665
the vocal minorities really do change,

893
01:11:10.605 --> 01:11:12.545
history. So, you know,

894
01:11:12.925 --> 01:11:20.625
and I No. I agree. That's what we're doing. But it's I think it's important for people to ground themselves and realize, like, put it into perspective a little bit.

895
01:11:21.085 --> 01:11:21.585
Yeah.

896
01:11:21.980 --> 01:11:23.920
Anyway, Matt, this is a great chat.

897
01:11:25.980 --> 01:11:35.199
I'd love to have you on, like, I don't know, in, like, six to eight months and see where you're at and get some updates on AI. And, I mean, it's obviously a trend that I think everyone needs to keep an eye on.

898
01:11:35.900 --> 01:11:37.440
It'd be great to have you back.

899
01:11:38.425 --> 01:11:41.165
Do you have any final thoughts to the audience before we wrap?

900
01:11:42.585 --> 01:11:47.725
Yeah. Don't have any final thoughts, but, thanks for listening. And and you can go to our,

901
01:11:48.265 --> 01:11:52.525
Noster end hub, and, it's probably posted somewhere around here.

902
01:11:53.370 --> 01:11:55.550
And, yeah, ask any questions you want.

903
01:11:55.850 --> 01:11:56.590
We are

904
01:11:56.890 --> 01:11:57.710
very much,

905
01:11:58.330 --> 01:12:03.070
building in the open as much as possible, and and, you know, user feedback

906
01:12:03.530 --> 01:12:07.630
and suggestions is is what drives the direction that we're going. So

907
01:12:08.385 --> 01:12:09.204
I love it.

908
01:12:09.664 --> 01:12:12.704
Yeah. Their website is ppq.ai.

909
01:12:13.025 --> 01:12:21.605
I'm gonna put links in the show notes to their master account and all the other relevant information. So just check the show notes if you wanna connect with Matt

910
01:12:22.790 --> 01:12:24.170
and the main account.

911
01:12:25.830 --> 01:12:28.570
Freaks, I see some comments in the YouTube chat.

912
01:12:29.110 --> 01:12:31.290
Yeah. The Nostra stream was down today.

913
01:12:32.150 --> 01:12:33.530
Kieran, who runs ZapStream,

914
01:12:34.565 --> 01:12:37.065
self hosts everything, and his router's getting DDoSed.

915
01:12:38.405 --> 01:12:39.945
I'm aware that it feels

916
01:12:41.285 --> 01:12:48.025
like Master isn't iterating quick enough. I still think it's amazing that that it's running and that it works to the extent that it does.

917
01:12:49.160 --> 01:12:55.820
We'll make those things better. But until then, we'll always be streaming no matter what. I'll make a way to get get the content to you guys

918
01:12:56.440 --> 01:12:59.180
even if we have to use YouTube, even if we have to use Twitch.

919
01:12:59.960 --> 01:13:01.095
It is what it is.

920
01:13:01.655 --> 01:13:05.915
Next week, I got two shows lined up. One on Monday, we're gonna be talking about Bitcoin,

921
01:13:07.095 --> 01:13:07.995
with Ben Kaufman,

922
01:13:09.335 --> 01:13:15.355
great Bitcoin developer that works with Keeper Wallet right now. He used to work with Specter Wallet. And then on Friday with HuddleBot,

923
01:13:16.380 --> 01:13:17.679
who's mission focused

924
01:13:18.460 --> 01:13:21.280
on Nostr with Coracle and Flotilla,

925
01:13:21.659 --> 01:13:22.320
you can

926
01:13:23.020 --> 01:13:24.480
I'll I'll keep you guys

927
01:13:25.580 --> 01:13:26.880
posted on on

928
01:13:28.235 --> 01:13:31.935
Nostril with the actual schedule there. Primal.net/odell.

929
01:13:33.035 --> 01:13:37.375
Thank you all the freaks that continue to support the show. Thank you guys who joined us in the live chat,

930
01:13:37.995 --> 01:13:39.990
even though we weren't in our typical place,

931
01:13:40.550 --> 01:13:46.570
even though we weren't on the master live chat. Thank you for joining. You guys make the show unique. Huge shout out to Matt. Check out his

932
01:13:47.110 --> 01:13:51.530
awesome project. Give him feedback. It's very helpful at this point in their development.

933
01:13:53.374 --> 01:13:54.594
Matt, thank you for joining.

934
01:13:55.294 --> 01:13:57.794
Thank you so much for having me. Great conversation.

935
01:13:58.334 --> 01:14:01.394
Love it. Open Water Bitcoin is the best. Stay humble, StackSats.