CD167: PIP - VERTEX WEB OF TRUST

Vertex is an open source nostr web of trust provider. Webs of trust are a method of quantifying verifiable reputations for spam mitigation, user discovery, social feeds, better app stores, and more.
Pip on Nostr: https://primal.net/p/nprofile1qqs0dqlgwq6l0t20gnstnr8mm9fhu9j9t2fv6wxwl3xtx8dh24l4auswr6u0j
Vertex on Nostr: https://primal.net/p/nprofile1qqstq4j6pk2sgaupru6l7ah9nq0dueafq356jllwcy7uzlek9yx7hlsel8nqn
Vertex: https://vertexlab.io/
EPISODE: 167
BLOCK: 905116
PRICE: 847 sats per dollar
(00:00:01) CNBC Intro
(00:02:00) Happy Bitcoin Friday
(00:04:27) Pip and Webs of Trust
(00:06:49) Understanding Webs of Trust
(00:14:16) App Store Security and Trust
(00:18:53) Spam Mitigation
(00:28:11) Client Side Solutions and Performance
(00:35:33) Trust Models and Censorship Risks
(00:45:02) Use Cases for Vertex
(01:03:04) Relay Operations and Spam Control
(01:11:01) Current State of the Nostr Ecosystem
(01:17:10) Community Building and Onboarding
(01:24:08) Closing Thoughts and Future Plans
Video: https://primal.net/e/nevent1qqs8vy4xuuny2hejghpjl57f77hh0t65gthaqhmjdwlwy7rr4ng3pzslchs0g
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odell nostr account: https://primal.net/odell
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learn more about me: https://odell.xyz
00:01 - CNBC Intro
02:00 - Happy Bitcoin Friday
04:27 - Pip and Webs of Trust
06:49 - Understanding Webs of Trust
14:16 - App Store Security and Trust
18:53 - Spam Mitigation
28:11 - Client Side Solutions and Performance
35:33 - Trust Models and Censorship Risks
45:02 - Use Cases for Vertex
01:03:04 - Relay Operations and Spam Control
01:11:01 - Current State of the Nostr Ecosystem
01:17:10 - Community Building and Onboarding
01:24:08 - Closing Thoughts and Future Plans
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 07/11/2025 22:15:57
Duration: 5316.544
Channels: 1
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Who everyone talks about
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is our guy that we usually talk about for the S and P and stocks. It's Tom Lee. That's Tom Lee. Yeah. Because he's been a bull for a long But the way he is a bull, he's on here and it'll be you know, Bitcoin will be at 70,
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and he'll just and I go, well, what do you think? And he goes, well, I'm expecting $1.20 to $1.50 with Right. And you think he's nuts. And you think he's absolutely correct? Right. That's the way he was when it first went up to twenty thousand years ago, and it and it dropped all the way to 3,000 or something. And he said, oh, I think we'll be back to 20 by the end of the year. And I once at one point before I got to before I got, born or until,
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I got one till pretty early, like, four point. It was at 8,000. It went down to 4. But one of my purchases was at 4,000. So Wow. Yes. So I did that. I had some at 4,000. Okay. Profits? I'd I'd sold a lot of 55.
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I still have pretty much. I still have them. Fine. I'm good. And I I love what you know, you can it's it's tough to enter now. You can buy fractional. But if you're a long term believer. If you're not if you're still a hodler, they they've been, they've been buying all along. But but I remember when he said it then, I I asked. I said, you're so good at what why do you delve in this? You you it's so much easier for stocks, and you're so good at calling short term trends than the S and P. You know, why risk your reputation on this? But at that point, it was such a strange
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risk No. Just for sure No. Of his forecast. Crypto related stocks, by the way, also
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Happy Bitcoin
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Friday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,
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the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin
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and FreedomTech
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discussion.
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That intro clip
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was,
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the world's most popular
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Bitcoin podcast host, Joe Kernan from CNBC.
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I think admitting for the first time when he purchased, which was at $4,000,
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that was actually
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a more impressive entry than I expected out of him.
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He did say he took some profits at 55 k, which,
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you probably regress that now. I would say
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selling Bitcoin for dollars is not taking profits. The opposite is taking profits. You wanna
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store your profits in the hardest money
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known to man.
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He also gave a shout out to Tom Lee who
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is pretty much a scammer, but,
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still felt like an iconic moment to capture and seal dispatch history.
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Anyway, Freaks, we got another all time high rip going.
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Bitcoin is in open water.
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Best
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part of Bitcoin is when we're in price discovery mode
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or the best times in Bitcoin is when we're in price discovery mode. The best part of Bitcoin is the freedom it provides us all.
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I have a great rip conversation lined up today with a ride or die freak. Before I get there, just real quick, dispatch is always
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is funded by our audience, funded by viewers like you with Bitcoin donations.
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We have no ads, no sponsors,
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no ref links.
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Just you guys and me
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shooting shooting the shit,
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broadcasting signal around the world. The easiest way to support the show or the most fun way to support the show is in our live chat with the ride or die freaks,
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powered by Noster. You can find all the relevant links at saledispatch.com.
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And then the second best way to support the show
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is through podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcast app.
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Our top zap from yesterday, you guys only had a day to give your comments in your zaps, was 500 sats from Johnny Stimulus.
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Let's try and get those zaps a little bit higher, Freaks. I would appreciate it. But more importantly, I appreciate when you share the show with your friends and family
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available in every podcast app.
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Anyway, Freaks,
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long winded intro.
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I've had a long day. I just got off a rabbit hole recap,
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slammed some food real quick, jumped on the livestream again. We have Pip here.
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As I said earlier, he's a ride or die freak, which I'm quite proud of. First time first time on the show. He I did broadcast. We we did a panel together in Riga that I did put in the feed. You might have listened to that. He's focused on webs of trust, web of trust.
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How's it going, Pip?
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It's going great. I just came back from vacation, so
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I'm quite relaxed and,
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and,
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excited to to build.
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Rejuvenated and ready to go?
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Sorry. I
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didn't hear what you said.
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I said I said you're rejuvenated and ready to go? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Rejuvenated. Yes.
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Okay. So first, I think a good place to start is,
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what is a web of trust and why should people care?
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Yeah. So
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web of trust is a word that's, can have many meanings. So, yeah, it's important to to define,
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at least. So
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I define it in the context of master. So web of trust, meaning that
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there is,
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there exist a bunch of events, and those events, because of master events, they are signed. And so it's possible to cryptographic
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cryptographically
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verify
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that
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someone has made a certain claim
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or has taken a certain
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action.
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And, out of that, you can build out a graph
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in many different ways in
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focusing on different types of relationship.
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For example, one is the follow graph
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that is mostly what people
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say when when
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is mostly what they mean when they say web of trust of Noster is
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basically who follows who and, what can be derived from all of this data,
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basically. And,
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yeah, my project,
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if I can continue in this route, is,
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is Vertex and,
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which is a web of trust as a service, meaning it's a service that you can use to analyze
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this web of trust
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and or rather, we analyze
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all of this data,
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and then you can use the insights from this data
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to power features inside your application.
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Okay. So,
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let's just pull it back for a second.
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The way I like to describe web of trust is
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from a practical perspective,
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which is right now,
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we're in the early stages of AI tools.
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But since the dawn of time,
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spam has been a problem on the Internet.
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Spam, the definition of spam
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is not an objective definition despite what people realize.
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It's, more of a subjective definition. And and what is spam? Spam is something that you didn't actually want to see that you see. So one man's spam is not another man's spam. Sometimes some people think there's something of value while other people don't.
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Historically, the way we've handled spam on the Internet is through centralized means.
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The most notable being,
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Google with Gmail. Gmail has a massive list of spam, and they just don't deliver it to you if it's on that spam list.
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Now,
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with the dawn of AI
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and deep fakes and fake news
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and automated bots, l o m powered bots.
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We've seen this
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become even worse in a social context on different social platforms.
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And they've also attempted to handle this in a centralized way,
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usually by trying to tie identification information to users
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and doing either light KYC or or even heavier KYC
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to identify the user and then deem if they're a real person or not and then add them to a spam list. Now the problem with centralized
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spam mitigation is that you have a central point of failure run by humans that can be corrupted, that can be
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pressured,
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that can be malicious.
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And
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and so you have a censorship risk there, but also you have,
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manipulation risk and you have just a lack of efficiency. It's not very effective. Spam still gets through.
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So now that we have Nasr and we have this cryptographic,
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identity protocol and and social graph
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protocol, we can do things,
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in a more scalable trust minimized way, and that's where webs of trust come in. How did how did that go? Did I nail it?
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Yeah. Yeah. I I would say that spam prevention and
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the battle against spam
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is perhaps
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the the biggest
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use case for the web of trust.
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Not the only one because, for example, there are, like, recommendations
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that you can solve in a very similar way, like giving personalized recommendation to users or
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offering a search. So there are multiple,
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use cases for the web of trust, but for sure, the biggest one is fighting
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spam,
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which, as you said, yes, it's a problem of,
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essentially, the the fact that
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users can abuse certain systems. And so it's a matter of
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trying to use smart heuristics
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so that
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you can defend yourself. You can defend,
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your your attention, your database if you're storing stuff that you don't want actually to store.
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And,
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any of our web trust provides a very powerful heuristic.
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And
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if you want, I can Yeah. More about, like,
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how powerful and how can it can be used more practically.
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Yeah. So, I mean, first off, we have Fran Zap in the live chat. Zap, 10,000 sats. Thank you for your support.
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And he also said,
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that your mic is a bit loud, but I lowered it. So, hopefully, it's better now. I lowered it on my side.
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Let me know,
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guys, if you think he should maybe move it a little bit away from your face.
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Pip just got a new mic just for the show, so shout out, Pip.
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Fran Zap, by the way, is,
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the creator of Zap Store, which is a master powered app store for Android,
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that is leveraging webs of web of trust. Is he using Vertex?
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Or
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Yes. Yes. He is using Vertex.
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Actually, he is,
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still, I I would say, the the cofounder of Vertex. Like, we started this project together
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in,
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well, Riga last year.
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And then we,
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basically, we launched in February.
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And, in, I believe,
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April or May,
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he
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decided to step down and focus more on Zuckster.
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But, yeah, his help was super
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super useful in the beginning for sure.
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So let's I mean, you said you wanted to talk about more practical uses of it, in the real world. Let's why don't we start there? Like, how is
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web of trust useful in a or Vertex specifically useful in an App Store environment?
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Yeah.
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So
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in the App Store, in Zapstore specifically, the feature is that when you click install
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on a new app that you that you you haven't downloaded yet,
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it it asks you a question. Are you
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now the question is, do you trust the signer of the application?
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So the thing is,
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someone and a developer most likely has signed this application,
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and so
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meaning that he build it. And so do you trust if you are not going to read the code, do you trust the signer, the developer behind it?
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Now,
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if you were to display an m pub, that would be very inconvenient
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because,
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you would have to take that m pub, copy, paste it somewhere else, and take it in and look at him at his profile.
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What, Vertex does inside Zapstore
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is that it
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provides,
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very
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summarized, very important
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piece of information, like who are there, the top followers of this account.
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And,
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and so, for example, if I click on, let's say, Albie, and I see that it's signed by Albie, I see that Odell,
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myself,
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Franza, they all follow Albie. So this Albie is most likely the relevant one and not an impersonator that is trying to trick me.
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Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Go on.
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And this this service specifically,
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it's called, verified reputation. Very simply, you provide
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an m pub. You choose the algorithm
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that is used to find the top five or top whatever you want.
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And then, and that basically and yeah. And we return the list of attendees with their associated,
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say, score or rank. They are already ordered, but you can use that score also in other ways.
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So there's
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so I guess, first off,
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I think it's important to realize that
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with delivering software on the Internet, this is the key
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this is the key problem
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that has
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that people have been trying to solve for a while, which is,
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you wanna make sure you're getting the real app. If you if you if you don't if you're not making sure you're getting the real app, you might get a fake app, and that app might be malicious.
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It might be just bad. It It just might not be a good app, but it also could be malicious and and trying to hurt you, trying to steal your your money or or
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compromise your account or something like that. And historically, the way that's been handled is once again through a centralized method, which is
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Apple is attesting to who's in their App Store,
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and Google's attesting into who's in their App Store. And they're making sure you're getting the right signal app, for instance, or
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x app or Facebook app. They're the ones doing
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the reputational
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scoring and testing and confirming identities and making sure the app hasn't been changed.
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Now that obviously comes with the issue that they also choose if you want to be in if you're allowed in the App Store in the first place. I had the white noise guys on yesterday.
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And right now, it's not available on iOS because Apple hasn't approved them. They need Apple's approval to get into the App Store. So how can we solve that problem
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without having that centralized party there deciding if if you have access or not?
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And that's what Vertex and Zapstore are trying to solve.
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Basically, anyone can upload, anyone can sign, and then you have this reputation scoring system so users can figure out which one's the real one. And that signing element is key because that's how you know it hasn't been changed
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by Zapstore.
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Right? If
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if Pavel Durov uploads Telegram to Zapstore,
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he wants to make sure that Fran can't change the file in in the in between. Right? Because that's also part of the threat model. So
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Pavel signs it,
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then the user can verify the signature, knows it hasn't been changed in the in between in the in the middle.
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Okay. That's awesome.
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So it sounds like you almost you're you're developing you have, like, an objective
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trust score or reputation score that is global. Like, it doesn't matter who I am as a user downloading it, or is it user specific? Like, if I go to Zapstore
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and go to download something, am I seeing
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a user
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specific view that if you go into Zapstore, you see something different, or
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is this more of a global type of reputation score?
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You can
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provide you can specify in the request
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the algorithm you want to use, and we have three algorithms algorithms
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at the moment.
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One is the you rank by followers count, which is the most, the, like, the cheapest, the fastest,
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but the less precise.
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Then we have,
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page rank. This is, let's say, a global view
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as as global as it can be. We we try to hit, all of the relays and and do the analysis that way. But, of course, there is no guarantee we get every single m that exists.
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And then there is the personalized
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page rank,
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which is still based on the same algorithm,
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but it is personalized
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to
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a parameter source that you provide. So in the most common way,
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you would be when you click on Zapstore, if Zapstore had this feature implemented,
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did this this particular
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type of call,
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then,
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yes, the top five you would see in that particular for that particular application would be personalized to
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to to you.
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And,
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so most likely, you will see if you follow that person, you will see yourself as the as the first one, as the top one, and then you would see most likely your followers that also follow the signer of the application.
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And if there are no followers, then you would see the
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people at two hops or three hops
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away from you that follow the app.
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It's more it's more complex to to say it out loud than to, like, draw it or this actually, it's not that.
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Fair enough. Completely.
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So we got the App Store model.
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And I yeah. Yeah. You also have this all listed on vertexlab.i0
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with the different trade offs, and you have a nice little chart on the three different algorithms you provide.
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So
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to go down this line of practical uses of something like Vertex, we have the App Store
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method.
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What what the App Store use case, what other use cases do you see,
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being a good fit for this kind of,
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web of trust algorithm?
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I would say the most used service at the moment is rank profiles,
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which is used, by
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asknostril.
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Site,
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which is, like a website where you can see
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a bunch of questions that people make on nostril.
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And they use it to
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basically, whenever, someone post a new ask nostril
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or other
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or an event
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that mentions one of the hash hashtag the index.
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When whenever it's it's a new key, they ask Vertex
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the the rank.
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And if the rank is too low, they simply hide
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the
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the the question or the answer,
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unless,
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maybe unless
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they have been active on Nostra side. Like, you can override this reputational score
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if you have more local information about your your app and what the user is doing inside the application. But if you don't have that information,
293
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you can use that that rank. And they have been using it, and they said they are happy because,
294
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it, removed, like, 99%
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of the spam or so of of people that were trying to gain the the hashtag ask ask Noster to get, zaps or or those kind of things.
296
00:20:13.665 --> 00:20:16.325
Yeah. So they're using it for spam mitigation.
297
00:20:17.179 --> 00:20:18.320
Yeah. Spam mitigation.
298
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And,
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that service in particular is a batched solution, so you can get the rank of 1,000 pop keys up to 1,000 pop keys, and and in a single request, you you you will receive.
300
00:20:31.035 --> 00:20:39.695
So that is more useful for, like, relays or application that have a database, and they want to store this information for later use.
301
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And then we have search.
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00:20:42.795 --> 00:20:43.295
So,
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00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:47.000
for example, if you go on mpub.word,
304
00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:49.640
which is a client that Fran and I built,
305
00:20:51.220 --> 00:20:56.360
you basically see a big fat search bar. And when you search, like, Jack, you will see
306
00:20:56.660 --> 00:20:57.640
the the Jacks,
307
00:20:58.304 --> 00:21:05.284
like, Jack Dorsey, Jack Mallers, Jack Spearko, and all other Jacks ranked in a way that kinda makes sense. These users global,
308
00:21:05.664 --> 00:21:08.004
but it could, also in the future,
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00:21:08.384 --> 00:21:09.284
I could also
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add the login. And when you're logged logged in, you use your personalized view to rank
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people.
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Search engine.
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It's a great it's a very clean search engine.
314
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Thank you.
315
00:21:26.865 --> 00:21:30.405
And when you click on a profile, what you see is actually the
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00:21:30.785 --> 00:21:41.205
result of verified reputation. So you see follows count, followers count, the top five that follow that m pub, and then a bunch of buttons like open this in
317
00:21:41.510 --> 00:21:46.250
your fraudulent client. Well, there's a lot of people that follow one of these fake Odell's.
318
00:21:48.070 --> 00:21:49.290
Yep. Yeah. Unfortunately,
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this is the limitation
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of Vertex, which I am completely open to discuss, is that we do you cannot escape,
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curation
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in any way.
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Meaning, you either do direct
324
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curation
325
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or you do algorithmic
326
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curation like we do.
327
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And,
328
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if people
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start following
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someone that is,
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a bot
332
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or maybe an impersonator. Yeah. Bot bot bot are fine, but impersonators
333
00:22:18.929 --> 00:22:21.029
are not, then, clearly,
334
00:22:22.035 --> 00:22:25.575
we want that to have the score as low as possible.
335
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But,
336
00:22:28.115 --> 00:22:32.375
yeah, if if some people follow it, then it will show up in search results.
337
00:22:33.235 --> 00:22:36.455
Yeah. I mean, it clearly has a much lower score than
338
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:38.299
the real Odell,
339
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:44.380
but it still shows up in the search results. And you don't make the actual rank number
340
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:47.179
public. Right?
341
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:49.179
Yeah. This was,
342
00:22:50.294 --> 00:22:52.154
someone actually made a PR
343
00:22:52.534 --> 00:22:54.794
to add and show the ranking publicly.
344
00:22:55.495 --> 00:22:56.875
I'm not particularly
345
00:22:58.455 --> 00:22:59.975
inclined to do that because,
346
00:23:00.934 --> 00:23:01.674
it sounds
347
00:23:02.054 --> 00:23:02.554
strange.
348
00:23:03.070 --> 00:23:05.570
It it feels strange to put a number on people.
349
00:23:06.030 --> 00:23:13.410
Like, this number can be used in the background to rank and and sort in a way that makes sense. But for example, I am always a bit
350
00:23:13.950 --> 00:23:17.010
it's kinda creepy when I look at, like, core accuracy.
351
00:23:17.785 --> 00:23:23.885
I look at my own score from my perspective, and it's lower than your score from my perspective.
352
00:23:24.665 --> 00:23:25.805
It's kinda strange.
353
00:23:26.505 --> 00:23:30.125
It it it creates strange dynamics, I I would say.
354
00:23:30.550 --> 00:23:32.010
Well, it's like a popularity
355
00:23:32.630 --> 00:23:33.690
leaderboard. Right?
356
00:23:34.950 --> 00:23:36.410
Yeah. Kind of. Yes.
357
00:23:36.950 --> 00:23:40.010
To integrate the impersonator problem, I
358
00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:42.890
have in mind to also analyze
359
00:23:43.350 --> 00:23:44.570
mutes and report.
360
00:23:46.065 --> 00:23:53.285
And that way, your your score or that would probably still will still be number one and will not change. But,
361
00:23:53.825 --> 00:23:56.245
hopefully, the second or the the impersonator,
362
00:23:56.865 --> 00:24:01.500
its score would decrease because many people have muted it or reported.
363
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:04.039
So it's not
364
00:24:04.679 --> 00:24:06.539
I'm on Choracle right now.
365
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.700
And so he shows a web of trust score
366
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:14.460
on my account.
367
00:24:14.985 --> 00:24:17.485
Is he using Vertex or is he using something else?
368
00:24:17.945 --> 00:24:20.205
No. He is using his own implementation,
369
00:24:21.705 --> 00:24:22.445
which is,
370
00:24:23.065 --> 00:24:25.405
to my understanding, is something like
371
00:24:25.865 --> 00:24:28.125
number of follows that follow
372
00:24:28.505 --> 00:24:29.005
you,
373
00:24:29.320 --> 00:24:30.380
like the target,
374
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.100
minus the number of mills.
375
00:24:34.040 --> 00:24:37.420
It's just it is something like that. The issue with that
376
00:24:38.040 --> 00:24:38.440
is,
377
00:24:38.840 --> 00:24:43.580
with a formula or, like, type of formula, maybe I I got it slightly wrong,
378
00:24:45.625 --> 00:24:46.105
is that,
379
00:24:47.225 --> 00:24:49.245
each each follows counts the same,
380
00:24:50.025 --> 00:24:54.125
which is not true because some people follow 10,000 others and some people follow
381
00:24:54.425 --> 00:24:57.645
30. So that that should be counted in some way.
382
00:24:58.105 --> 00:24:58.585
And,
383
00:24:59.305 --> 00:25:00.125
then it's
384
00:25:00.820 --> 00:25:02.600
follows and moves. They they do
385
00:25:03.300 --> 00:25:07.320
count it. Like, if you get muted by many, you get a negative score,
386
00:25:08.420 --> 00:25:12.040
which yeah. It it can be well, this actually is not a problem.
387
00:25:13.235 --> 00:25:14.135
Mostly it's,
388
00:25:14.595 --> 00:25:17.815
say, it's less precise because it doesn't differentiate between
389
00:25:18.995 --> 00:25:23.335
different follows. Like, a follow counts one, a mute counts negative one.
390
00:25:23.715 --> 00:25:24.775
You wanna actually
391
00:25:25.155 --> 00:25:30.460
rank the the people that are also then ranking. Right? Just like it should compound on top of each other.
392
00:25:31.080 --> 00:25:32.380
Yeah. And, also,
393
00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:38.300
it's limited in reach because it can only go two hops. Like, you have information about
394
00:25:38.765 --> 00:25:41.905
the one you follow and the one they follow or muted.
395
00:25:42.365 --> 00:25:43.245
And this is
396
00:25:43.965 --> 00:25:46.705
you you don't have information outside this bubble.
397
00:25:47.085 --> 00:25:48.625
And how big is this bubble?
398
00:25:49.165 --> 00:25:49.985
Most likely,
399
00:25:50.445 --> 00:25:51.505
it is about
400
00:25:51.805 --> 00:25:52.605
50,000
401
00:25:52.605 --> 00:25:53.105
impacts.
402
00:25:53.740 --> 00:25:56.320
Maybe more for people like you, Odell, that follow
403
00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:58.399
thousands and thousands of people.
404
00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:01.519
But, yeah, in the future, this this
405
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:03.519
is not going to scale much.
406
00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:08.539
In fact, true hops, you'll probably still remain about 100,000
407
00:26:08.539 --> 00:26:09.200
m pups
408
00:26:09.575 --> 00:26:13.435
even though maybe millions and millions use not in Oster.
409
00:26:13.895 --> 00:26:17.035
And so you would have a very limited view of what's happening
410
00:26:17.415 --> 00:26:21.755
and who's reputable and who is not. And outside of that, you would have no information.
411
00:26:22.549 --> 00:26:26.490
And particularly new users, you would have trouble seeing their stuff.
412
00:26:27.669 --> 00:26:29.590
Yeah. True. It it requires
413
00:26:30.150 --> 00:26:30.650
yeah.
414
00:26:31.350 --> 00:26:32.169
So I,
415
00:26:34.070 --> 00:26:36.090
I'm a big fan of Nasjira
416
00:26:36.390 --> 00:26:37.210
with a u,
417
00:26:37.845 --> 00:26:40.745
n o s t u r, by Fabian
418
00:26:41.605 --> 00:26:45.225
or Fabian. I don't know how to pronounce his name. But, yeah, he uses
419
00:26:45.684 --> 00:26:46.745
his own in,
420
00:26:47.445 --> 00:26:49.545
his own local web of trust filter.
421
00:26:51.580 --> 00:26:53.680
And to to your answer to
422
00:26:53.980 --> 00:26:55.920
those issues, first of all, he
423
00:26:56.780 --> 00:27:06.240
has, like, a number you can choose with how many followers you disregard people. So I have it currently set up that if someone follows more than 2,000 people,
424
00:27:06.995 --> 00:27:10.135
then I don't include them. It they're not included in my web of trust.
425
00:27:10.515 --> 00:27:13.495
And and so just for some context for the listeners,
426
00:27:14.995 --> 00:27:17.715
I follow 1,854
427
00:27:17.715 --> 00:27:18.215
people.
428
00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:20.470
So I follow 1,854
429
00:27:20.470 --> 00:27:20.970
people.
430
00:27:21.350 --> 00:27:22.010
And then
431
00:27:22.790 --> 00:27:23.850
my two hops,
432
00:27:24.150 --> 00:27:26.490
as Pip was saying, comes out to
433
00:27:27.350 --> 00:27:28.710
about 46,000
434
00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:29.210
people,
435
00:27:30.470 --> 00:27:33.990
just to give people a line so anyone out of those 46
436
00:27:34.555 --> 00:27:39.035
anyone besides those 46,000 people, I don't see their content if I use last year,
437
00:27:41.035 --> 00:27:43.375
which obviously has its pros and cons,
438
00:27:44.155 --> 00:27:45.455
the con being discovery.
439
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.340
Yeah. Yeah. Spam and discovery are always,
440
00:27:49.879 --> 00:27:51.159
in, in in,
441
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:58.779
they they are always against each other. Like, if you try to optimize for discovery, you probably include more spam. If you wanna be super
442
00:27:59.205 --> 00:28:01.784
against the spam, then you find yourself,
443
00:28:02.404 --> 00:28:03.705
that you don't have
444
00:28:04.005 --> 00:28:08.825
basically content on your feed because you just blocked everything else,
445
00:28:09.445 --> 00:28:10.345
everyone else.
446
00:28:11.044 --> 00:28:14.585
Yeah. Client side solution in general, they can work,
447
00:28:15.179 --> 00:28:17.200
for sure. The problem is that,
448
00:28:17.659 --> 00:28:20.000
at least from what I I know about,
449
00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:22.799
is that they are quite
450
00:28:23.820 --> 00:28:24.799
complex to implement.
451
00:28:25.899 --> 00:28:31.005
They they require a lot of work on the client, which can be problematic if you use a smartphone,
452
00:28:31.545 --> 00:28:39.325
if you have poor Internet connection. Like, you have to download all of this kind freeze, and downloading them can take, you know, many, many minutes.
453
00:28:39.865 --> 00:28:40.525
And then
454
00:28:40.905 --> 00:28:43.804
because it is it is so expensive to do,
455
00:28:44.340 --> 00:28:44.840
then
456
00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:49.400
these things are are cashed. So I assume there is some
457
00:28:50.020 --> 00:28:58.360
cash that happens, which means that it might happen that you are using all the data, maybe in case of someone who gets hacked.
458
00:28:58.695 --> 00:29:00.794
Like, imagine Jack Dorsey is hacked,
459
00:29:01.335 --> 00:29:02.075
and then
460
00:29:02.375 --> 00:29:06.154
you still see him as reputable even though he was hacked.
461
00:29:06.855 --> 00:29:13.760
And this might, be problematic because, like, he messaged you and he asked you for, you know, 1 Bitcoin and I'll give you back 2.
462
00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:16.880
And then you check-in it. Oh, yes. He's the real jack
463
00:29:17.260 --> 00:29:18.400
because he was hacked.
464
00:29:18.940 --> 00:29:20.720
You know? Yeah. So
465
00:29:21.419 --> 00:29:22.559
instead, the Vertex,
466
00:29:23.100 --> 00:29:28.115
what we do, we take all of that work on our side, so you don't have to do much. You just have to
467
00:29:28.495 --> 00:29:31.475
ask the the relay, and we we give you the
468
00:29:32.895 --> 00:29:34.995
the the results. And all the results
469
00:29:35.375 --> 00:29:39.395
are computed in real time. So when you make the request, then we compute
470
00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:41.650
the thing. We don't do any caching
471
00:29:42.030 --> 00:29:43.010
of any sort.
472
00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:47.330
Everything is basically precomputed and keep updated.
473
00:29:47.790 --> 00:29:50.850
Whenever someone publish a new follow list,
474
00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:52.690
we we get it. We
475
00:29:53.070 --> 00:29:54.210
update, our
476
00:29:54.735 --> 00:29:59.715
internal metrics. And then when you when you query, you always get the the the most
477
00:30:00.095 --> 00:30:01.795
the most fresh data possible.
478
00:30:04.255 --> 00:30:05.075
Makes sense.
479
00:30:06.735 --> 00:30:08.595
So first of all, I see,
480
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:18.100
Stacks in the live chat. He was asking what the domain was for that search engine that is npub.world,
481
00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:21.460
is the domain. I see Frank
482
00:30:22.005 --> 00:30:25.385
answered him in the live chat, but I just wanted to put it out there because
483
00:30:25.765 --> 00:30:36.265
if he didn't understand it on audio, then no one that listens to the podcast feed would understand either. And the overwhelming majority of listeners on the show is the podcast feed audio only.
484
00:30:37.889 --> 00:30:38.870
Okay. So
485
00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:39.750
so
486
00:30:40.850 --> 00:30:42.309
to pull on that thought,
487
00:30:43.169 --> 00:30:45.509
so something like Nasjar is using
488
00:30:45.970 --> 00:30:54.245
local client side web of trust. I also assume that is adding additional compute and would kill hurt your battery life more just like checking signatures
489
00:30:55.024 --> 00:30:57.365
and everything else. It's just trade offs all the way down.
490
00:30:59.585 --> 00:31:00.965
But so with you guys,
491
00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:05.970
how is a developer integrating it? I see a mention of DVMs on the website.
492
00:31:06.429 --> 00:31:09.010
Like, how does that look from the developer perspective,
493
00:31:10.590 --> 00:31:13.330
in terms of integration? And then how does it look
494
00:31:13.995 --> 00:31:18.895
from both the user and the developer perspective in terms of trust in Vertex?
495
00:31:19.995 --> 00:31:28.920
Yes. Yes. So from the point of view of the developer, I'm very proud because I think the experience is really good because all of this complexity on
496
00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:34.760
algorithm and, and downloading data and analyzing it and verifying and so on,
497
00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:39.480
all of that is abstracted away. And what you do is simply sign an event
498
00:31:40.325 --> 00:31:41.065
that is
499
00:31:41.605 --> 00:31:45.545
a request. So the request is, an an an Oscar event,
500
00:31:45.925 --> 00:31:51.780
and, it contains inside the parameters. Like, I wanna use this algorithm. I wanna use
501
00:31:52.100 --> 00:31:57.080
this other parameter and so on. You send it to our relay, and then you fetch the response.
502
00:31:58.340 --> 00:31:59.560
And that's it.
503
00:32:00.580 --> 00:32:04.600
The the services are the DVM services are already structured
504
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:05.960
in a way that
505
00:32:06.420 --> 00:32:06.920
kinda
506
00:32:09.315 --> 00:32:10.855
covers the the most
507
00:32:12.275 --> 00:32:28.909
popular use cases. Like, you wanna verify the reputation of an intel, like, you are on the profile. You and so that is, like, the place, in my opinion, to to use it. Then we want maybe you have a database. You wanna have a bunch of information for later use, then you
508
00:32:29.390 --> 00:32:32.370
means you you are going to use rank profiles.
509
00:32:33.230 --> 00:32:36.690
Then let's say you have a premium user and you want to give him recommendations
510
00:32:37.505 --> 00:32:42.325
or maybe a regular user, you want to say, you should also follow these other people.
511
00:32:42.945 --> 00:32:45.925
You can use recommend follows that is going to,
512
00:32:47.105 --> 00:32:49.045
yeah, use the algorithm to
513
00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:51.139
come up with this recommendation
514
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:58.740
and then search. If you wanna have a nice search bar on your client, you can just add it. And in the background, that search just
515
00:32:59.120 --> 00:33:00.419
ask our relay
516
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:03.539
and then shows the the the result.
517
00:33:04.325 --> 00:33:08.265
Now in terms of trust, it is, yes, a centralized service,
518
00:33:08.645 --> 00:33:11.465
so it's fully trusted at the moment.
519
00:33:12.165 --> 00:33:12.565
It's,
520
00:33:13.205 --> 00:33:14.345
well, the only guarantee
521
00:33:14.805 --> 00:33:15.705
is that
522
00:33:16.570 --> 00:33:19.150
the responses are signed. So there cannot be
523
00:33:19.610 --> 00:33:22.030
a man in the middle that that
524
00:33:22.650 --> 00:33:23.150
tries
525
00:33:24.730 --> 00:33:31.230
to impersonate Vertex. That would be kinda fun. Funny that someone impersonates the anti impersonator.
526
00:33:32.515 --> 00:33:33.475
Fair enough. And we're
527
00:33:34.595 --> 00:33:35.815
and, yeah, actually,
528
00:33:36.195 --> 00:33:37.095
the next step,
529
00:33:38.195 --> 00:33:39.495
in order to minimize
530
00:33:39.795 --> 00:33:40.295
distrust
531
00:33:41.795 --> 00:33:42.615
is to
532
00:33:42.995 --> 00:33:46.775
implement something I have in mind, which is a client side
533
00:33:47.340 --> 00:33:48.480
validation schemes.
534
00:33:50.059 --> 00:33:54.000
Meaning, you get let's say, we are talking about verified reputation.
535
00:33:54.539 --> 00:33:57.440
So you get, the top five followers of Adele,
536
00:33:57.980 --> 00:34:03.054
and you wanna know because you want to know if this Odell is the real one or an impersonator.
537
00:34:04.635 --> 00:34:08.095
Now what you can do client side, once you have this top five,
538
00:34:08.875 --> 00:34:09.855
is to find
539
00:34:11.355 --> 00:34:12.734
your follow list
540
00:34:13.035 --> 00:34:13.775
and then
541
00:34:14.270 --> 00:34:15.410
their follow list,
542
00:34:16.750 --> 00:34:21.170
and then you can verify that all of them follow this Odell.
543
00:34:21.950 --> 00:34:27.390
So you cannot prove that these are the top five out of 46,000
544
00:34:27.390 --> 00:34:27.890
people,
545
00:34:28.575 --> 00:34:32.195
but you can prove that those five actually follow that.
546
00:34:32.734 --> 00:34:33.635
So you prevent
547
00:34:34.494 --> 00:34:35.395
in this case,
548
00:34:35.775 --> 00:34:36.835
client side verification
549
00:34:37.295 --> 00:34:40.835
prevents the worst case scenario where Vertex just lies
550
00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:47.680
and and said, yes, all of these reputable people follow this fake hotel when in fact they don't.
551
00:34:49.660 --> 00:34:49.980
And,
552
00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:53.660
and also for trust, it's important to note that,
553
00:34:54.220 --> 00:34:55.920
because it's built on DVMs,
554
00:34:56.775 --> 00:35:02.395
it it means that other competitors can come in, and then hopefully, there will be some competition that
555
00:35:02.775 --> 00:35:06.795
that keeps everyone in check. But at the moment, it's only So you got presumably
556
00:35:07.095 --> 00:35:13.170
in that situation, you could just you can hit two providers and compare the results locally or something.
557
00:35:13.950 --> 00:35:17.809
Yeah. For for example, I'll choose the provider you trust more.
558
00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:20.530
Yeah. That's that is a possibility.
559
00:35:21.245 --> 00:35:23.345
But you could use one to audit the other
560
00:35:24.045 --> 00:35:27.585
would be an interesting trust model. I mean, right now,
561
00:35:28.445 --> 00:35:36.790
you stand in a situation where you could presumably censor someone if you wanted to. Right? I'm not accusing you of that. I don't think you are. Yeah. Yeah. I could.
562
00:35:37.170 --> 00:35:37.670
I
563
00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:42.390
could. Got it. Just just to be clear, yes. I could. It's a trusted service.
564
00:35:42.770 --> 00:35:43.330
Just like,
565
00:35:43.890 --> 00:35:45.750
I would say similar to the
566
00:35:46.609 --> 00:35:48.130
prime model caching service,
567
00:35:48.530 --> 00:35:49.750
model. 100%.
568
00:35:50.505 --> 00:35:53.565
Someone someone some other can can run it.
569
00:35:54.025 --> 00:35:56.785
But, yeah, potentially, primal could end the
570
00:35:57.224 --> 00:35:57.964
And presumably,
571
00:35:58.424 --> 00:36:05.005
like, the biggest trust with the primal model is similar to this, which is in practice, which is that
572
00:36:05.610 --> 00:36:11.790
primal could choose not to show you something. And you wouldn't know primal was choosing not to show you something because everything's signed.
573
00:36:12.250 --> 00:36:13.710
You can verify that
574
00:36:14.250 --> 00:36:16.110
there isn't a man in the middle happening,
575
00:36:16.650 --> 00:36:21.635
that the data hasn't been modified, but you don't know if you haven't seen the data in the first place.
576
00:36:22.255 --> 00:36:25.075
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That could be data with withholding,
577
00:36:25.455 --> 00:36:26.595
I think it says.
578
00:36:27.535 --> 00:36:35.930
Yeah. Yeah. That that that is also the case with, with relays in general. Like, you don't know if they are Right. Deleting events of people they don't like.
579
00:36:36.470 --> 00:36:40.410
Same trust model exact in that regard to, like yeah. Like, the domiciliary
580
00:36:40.790 --> 00:36:41.370
could just
581
00:36:42.950 --> 00:36:45.450
just drop notes, and you just wouldn't know.
582
00:36:45.785 --> 00:36:49.405
But they can't modify notes because you can check the signatures.
583
00:36:50.345 --> 00:36:51.085
Yeah. Exactly.
584
00:36:51.465 --> 00:36:53.405
And, also, because every
585
00:36:53.945 --> 00:36:55.965
response we make is is signed,
586
00:36:58.025 --> 00:37:10.940
and that event, you can you can store it. And so you can that that can be proof that we misbehaved in the past, and that would, fuck us. Like Then you'd be over. Yeah. The reputation. Yeah. One event use you again.
587
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:12.940
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
588
00:37:13.335 --> 00:37:19.355
And this doesn't happen with the normal APIs because they are not signed, at least not normally.
589
00:37:20.375 --> 00:37:21.675
And so proof.
590
00:37:22.214 --> 00:37:23.915
You wouldn't have proof. Yeah. Exactly.
591
00:37:24.935 --> 00:37:28.955
You would not have proof, and it would be my word against your word.
592
00:37:30.370 --> 00:37:33.510
And then, we will not be able to, like, decide or
593
00:37:33.890 --> 00:37:39.270
but instead, in this case, because we use DVMs, then, yes, if we misbehave, then
594
00:37:39.650 --> 00:37:41.430
everyone would would see that.
595
00:37:43.875 --> 00:37:45.095
So you have,
596
00:37:46.115 --> 00:37:48.295
the the dev pricing here.
597
00:37:50.675 --> 00:37:53.815
Yeah. You get 10,000 free credits as the trial,
598
00:37:54.720 --> 00:37:57.940
and then it looks like the cheapest scale one is,
599
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:00.500
half a cent a credit.
600
00:38:01.040 --> 00:38:01.520
What is it
601
00:38:02.240 --> 00:38:03.700
like, what does that actually,
602
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:10.275
relate in in actual cost? Like, if if Vidor was to add this to Amethyst
603
00:38:11.295 --> 00:38:14.275
in practice, how does that look cost wise for him?
604
00:38:14.975 --> 00:38:17.235
It really depends on what you use.
605
00:38:17.695 --> 00:38:18.195
And,
606
00:38:19.215 --> 00:38:20.515
for example, if
607
00:38:21.250 --> 00:38:28.470
let let's make an the example of Primal instead of Amethyst, which is, which is easier. So Primal has a database.
608
00:38:29.490 --> 00:38:29.990
Right.
609
00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:33.350
And they probably have many millions of m pups
610
00:38:34.005 --> 00:38:35.704
and many, many millions of notes.
611
00:38:36.244 --> 00:38:37.385
And they are wasting,
612
00:38:38.645 --> 00:38:40.744
most likely a lot of some resources
613
00:38:41.845 --> 00:38:44.424
in storing notes that are just spam
614
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:46.280
or,
615
00:38:47.060 --> 00:38:49.640
yeah. And what they could do is that
616
00:38:50.020 --> 00:38:52.360
every day or every week,
617
00:38:52.980 --> 00:38:53.480
they,
618
00:38:54.820 --> 00:38:59.960
connect to Vertex. And then for each amp up of their database, they ask the rank.
619
00:39:00.355 --> 00:39:04.055
They store this rank for later use, like to power search, for example.
620
00:39:04.995 --> 00:39:17.859
And then if the rank is too low, then they can simply delete these events because they say, people are not interested in this event. This is my relay. This is my storage. I prefer to use it in a more efficient way, so I delete these things.
621
00:39:19.040 --> 00:39:21.760
So the user I'm referring to is using,
622
00:39:22.160 --> 00:39:27.075
rank profiles. And so for each 1,000 pop keys, it cost,
623
00:39:27.935 --> 00:39:29.475
less than 1¢.
624
00:39:30.255 --> 00:39:34.015
And so if you have 1,000,000 keys, that would cost you $99.
625
00:39:34.015 --> 00:39:39.395
With $9, you take your database and you clean it up. Maybe you do it. Oh, it's pretty cheap.
626
00:39:40.510 --> 00:39:41.890
Yeah. Maybe I'm underselling.
627
00:39:43.070 --> 00:39:43.570
Yeah.
628
00:39:44.590 --> 00:39:48.610
Well, it's good to you start low. You can always increase the price later.
629
00:39:49.870 --> 00:39:52.690
It is not the the the opposite. You can you should
630
00:39:53.045 --> 00:39:55.545
start with the height and then decrease it later.
631
00:39:55.845 --> 00:39:57.225
I don't think so. I mean,
632
00:39:58.085 --> 00:40:00.425
it depends what you're selling. But if you're selling
633
00:40:00.885 --> 00:40:01.785
this is, like,
634
00:40:02.325 --> 00:40:10.670
probably mostly b to b stuff. Right? So it's like a developer focused thing. And you so you just want the install base, and you want the feedback first.
635
00:40:11.370 --> 00:40:12.030
And then
636
00:40:12.410 --> 00:40:16.590
you can increase price. That's why I assume it was why you have a free tier.
637
00:40:16.890 --> 00:40:24.035
Right? Just because you don't want you want someone to act you want a developer to actually play around with it and see how it works for his use case before,
638
00:40:25.135 --> 00:40:28.115
you don't want the the payment to be friction point.
639
00:40:29.935 --> 00:40:34.195
I think people I think you could, at the end of the day, for most good products,
640
00:40:34.580 --> 00:40:43.240
you can lower or increase the price in the future and users will be fine with it. I think people overstate that a little bit and overthink it on, like, what their
641
00:40:43.940 --> 00:40:45.800
what their original price is.
642
00:40:46.885 --> 00:40:48.745
I definitely over overthought
643
00:40:49.285 --> 00:40:50.025
my pricing.
644
00:40:50.725 --> 00:40:53.305
Oh, there you go. We should. We didn't talk first.
645
00:40:54.405 --> 00:40:54.905
So
646
00:40:55.845 --> 00:40:57.545
I don't know where I wanna so
647
00:40:58.405 --> 00:41:01.020
first of all, I'm curious just out of the,
648
00:41:01.820 --> 00:41:07.440
do you have, like, do you have a god mode of that lists, like, the most popular accounts on Nostr?
649
00:41:11.020 --> 00:41:15.840
Do you have, like, an Excel document? Do you have a spreadsheet that just shows who's the most popular?
650
00:41:17.845 --> 00:41:25.785
No. But, you are asking because you wanna know if you are number one. No. I I mean, I I assume Dorsey's number one. I'm just curious.
651
00:41:26.405 --> 00:41:34.240
I'm No. No. No. Sure the top 10 are. I I don't know now, but I remember when I was, like, testing and looking at the ranks
652
00:41:34.620 --> 00:41:36.720
global global ranks, not personalized.
653
00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:41.440
Danos, I think, is number one. And then, Jack Dorsey.
654
00:41:42.055 --> 00:41:48.235
Yeah. Because everyone follows Domus, basically, I think. If you install Domus, I think it automatically follows the Domus account.
655
00:41:49.095 --> 00:41:49.995
There's a trick.
656
00:41:51.255 --> 00:41:51.915
I'm joking.
657
00:41:52.535 --> 00:41:53.435
I think Domus,
658
00:41:53.735 --> 00:41:54.235
Jack,
659
00:41:54.549 --> 00:41:55.210
and then
660
00:41:56.069 --> 00:41:58.569
probably you. Maybe you are number three.
661
00:41:59.430 --> 00:42:05.750
Interesting. I'm going to to heart your your ego. I'm I'm sorry. I'll say humble enough. I think
662
00:42:06.825 --> 00:42:07.325
humble
663
00:42:07.785 --> 00:42:15.325
enough. I've I've I've, it's just kind of interesting to me. Like, I, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a decent amount of surprises in the top 50, particularly
664
00:42:16.345 --> 00:42:18.045
since Nasr is global
665
00:42:18.984 --> 00:42:21.165
non English language. Like, I wonder,
666
00:42:21.789 --> 00:42:25.569
like, I wonder who is the most popular Japanese language person.
667
00:42:25.869 --> 00:42:29.890
I would have no idea. I don't even know who that is. I can't read their language.
668
00:42:31.630 --> 00:42:35.069
Yeah. I don't know. I honestly don't know because I don't have the
669
00:42:35.635 --> 00:42:37.735
this feature yet. No.
670
00:42:39.075 --> 00:42:43.495
I, Yeah. Gigi top 10. I think so, probably. He's the goat. Yep.
671
00:42:43.795 --> 00:42:46.935
Yep. Four five. And NDK also in the top.
672
00:42:47.235 --> 00:42:47.735
Lina,
673
00:42:48.835 --> 00:42:50.695
Jack Mallers, Jeff Booth.
674
00:42:52.010 --> 00:42:56.030
Always yeah. You know, always the the the the the same very popular.
675
00:42:56.970 --> 00:43:00.190
I mean, that's the funny thing. Right? It's like so with primal,
676
00:43:01.930 --> 00:43:04.349
we have this optional trending algorithm,
677
00:43:07.615 --> 00:43:12.275
And there's all these conspiracies about the trending algorithm, about, like, who's on the top of trending.
678
00:43:12.974 --> 00:43:30.619
And meanwhile, like, it is the most transparent algorithm in the world in terms of social trending stuff. Like, we it's open source. You can see the exact weightings. You can see exactly how it works or not. And why does it exist in the first place? Like, a lot of Nostra people are anti algorithm, but the reason it exists is because
679
00:43:30.954 --> 00:43:32.734
actually, most people like algorithms
680
00:43:33.035 --> 00:43:37.375
and they find them useful. They just want they need to be transparent and not predatory.
681
00:43:37.915 --> 00:43:40.815
But it is it it opens up an interesting question
682
00:43:41.355 --> 00:43:44.895
and and it's optional. And it opens up an interesting question where,
683
00:43:48.310 --> 00:43:49.290
if if,
684
00:43:49.670 --> 00:44:03.684
like, maybe the algorithms people want and the cool part about Nasr is they can choose is maybe the algorithms people want aren't actually, like, what are the most popular notes? They wanna see stuff underneath that. And that's why, like, with the primal trending, like, it's not a conspiracy. It's just
685
00:44:04.545 --> 00:44:11.125
if more people follow someone, it's more likely that it's gonna have the popularity rate, like rankings on individual posts.
686
00:44:13.180 --> 00:44:15.280
Yep. Yes. That that also is,
687
00:44:15.580 --> 00:44:17.360
let's say, lack of,
688
00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:19.760
variety
689
00:44:20.620 --> 00:44:25.155
is also because that algorithm is is global. And so you find always the top
690
00:44:25.635 --> 00:44:26.375
global people.
691
00:44:27.635 --> 00:44:29.815
That could be made, let's say,
692
00:44:30.195 --> 00:44:34.375
relative to the user or, you know, another word, personalized.
693
00:44:35.475 --> 00:44:36.295
That's also,
694
00:44:37.875 --> 00:44:42.070
that that is more like aligned, I would say, to the nostril spirit.
695
00:44:42.690 --> 00:44:43.190
But
696
00:44:43.570 --> 00:44:46.550
practically speaking, it's definitely more,
697
00:44:47.730 --> 00:44:48.550
more computations,
698
00:44:48.850 --> 00:44:53.910
more more costly also to to do. That's also why the that algorithm in particular,
699
00:44:54.405 --> 00:45:01.865
personalized page rank is, is is more costly than than global page rank because it simply is more competition for for us.
700
00:45:02.645 --> 00:45:04.665
Yeah. It's much more difficult to implement.
701
00:45:05.525 --> 00:45:06.025
I,
702
00:45:06.860 --> 00:45:09.840
Yeah. I I do like the personalized stuff, and I think Noster's
703
00:45:11.100 --> 00:45:17.240
uniquely well positioned for it. I see Diana's comment in YouTube, and maybe I'm
704
00:45:17.740 --> 00:45:20.925
maybe it was a little confusing for other people if she's confused as well.
705
00:45:21.885 --> 00:45:22.625
With primal,
706
00:45:24.045 --> 00:45:26.145
she's asking me about the primal trust model.
707
00:45:26.685 --> 00:45:30.545
With primal, what we do is we have a caching server
708
00:45:31.005 --> 00:45:32.225
while most other
709
00:45:32.925 --> 00:45:39.220
apps, Nostra apps, connect directly to relays. And And so you can think of a caching server kinda like a super relay,
710
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.540
that we run, and it tries to collect all the notes
711
00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:45.780
that we see, just every note
712
00:45:46.080 --> 00:45:46.980
that we see.
713
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:53.615
And we do that for performance reasons, but we also do that for privacy reasons.
714
00:45:54.155 --> 00:45:59.055
And that's because when you're reading notes on Nostra or even reading profile pictures,
715
00:45:59.595 --> 00:46:01.855
which the caching server is also taking,
716
00:46:02.155 --> 00:46:04.335
caching server takes all the media and everything.
717
00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:11.720
When you're when you're reading that on a normal Nasr app, you're actually hitting a bunch of other web servers. You're hitting, like, any web server that's hosting media, any web
718
00:46:12.100 --> 00:46:17.320
server that's hosting notes, anything on Nasr. And so with us, you're just hitting our caching server.
719
00:46:17.700 --> 00:46:19.960
So you're only exposing your IP address
720
00:46:20.715 --> 00:46:21.455
and your
721
00:46:21.755 --> 00:46:23.535
use your your usage
722
00:46:23.835 --> 00:46:26.495
to to the operator of the caching server.
723
00:46:27.035 --> 00:46:28.495
Now that adds
724
00:46:29.435 --> 00:46:32.095
a trust element in terms of censorship
725
00:46:32.635 --> 00:46:33.275
where we can
726
00:46:34.140 --> 00:46:34.880
if we were
727
00:46:35.900 --> 00:46:41.359
operating maliciously, we could remove things from your feed that you would never see in the first place.
728
00:46:41.980 --> 00:47:00.775
We can't modify your feed. We can just remove things and never show them to you in the first place. And as Pip said earlier, that's a similar trust model as a regular relay where a regular relay could have removed could remove things. Now the advantage you have with a normal nostril app or a typical nostril app is you might connect to multiple relays. So they all would have to,
729
00:47:01.089 --> 00:47:03.349
you know, be dropping notes for you to miss them.
730
00:47:04.690 --> 00:47:08.710
The mitigation we have for that is the caching server is
731
00:47:09.569 --> 00:47:13.190
open source. And in the UI itself, you can go and
732
00:47:13.655 --> 00:47:19.595
you can switch it to your one you run or one someone else runs, as Pip said, with his project.
733
00:47:20.295 --> 00:47:26.040
The ideal situation is we're hoping multiple entities are running caching servers, and you can just easily flip between them.
734
00:47:26.600 --> 00:47:28.220
Mutiny used to before
735
00:47:29.080 --> 00:47:29.660
they left.
736
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:35.180
But, yeah, anyway, that was long winded on the primal trust model.
737
00:47:36.200 --> 00:47:39.180
I see Fran saying primal should integrate Vertex.
738
00:47:39.555 --> 00:47:43.095
I mean, that that's interesting to me. I mean, I I think we're also
739
00:47:44.515 --> 00:47:47.655
like, we'd like, we could do stuff in house.
740
00:47:49.315 --> 00:47:53.175
I guess, is the Vertex stack the Vertex stack itself is open source?
741
00:47:54.180 --> 00:48:01.000
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. All open source. In fact, I am, maybe I should have mentioned earlier, but I am a open SaaS grantee.
742
00:48:01.780 --> 00:48:04.040
Oh, awesome. I think I knew that.
743
00:48:06.945 --> 00:48:07.985
Yeah. Yeah. All open source. And,
744
00:48:09.505 --> 00:48:10.645
yeah, you can basically
745
00:48:11.105 --> 00:48:13.205
take it and run it yourself if you want.
746
00:48:13.505 --> 00:48:14.065
It's not,
747
00:48:15.425 --> 00:48:15.925
as,
748
00:48:16.705 --> 00:48:18.405
plug and play, I would say.
749
00:48:19.220 --> 00:48:21.059
Not not only because you have to provide,
750
00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:24.020
hosting, I mean, the infrastructure to run it, but,
751
00:48:24.339 --> 00:48:27.160
because it it requires some, let's say, ad hoc,
752
00:48:28.900 --> 00:48:31.000
you choose of certain parameters.
753
00:48:32.205 --> 00:48:35.665
And, it's more like an art than a science to, like, do the initialization.
754
00:48:36.205 --> 00:48:37.905
Because when you are initializing,
755
00:48:38.285 --> 00:48:38.785
right,
756
00:48:39.245 --> 00:48:39.985
and you
757
00:48:40.525 --> 00:48:45.665
you you will crawl the network from a certain point, which was, like, flat Java and Pub
758
00:48:46.080 --> 00:48:48.900
simply because it's you know, if you use no source, somehow
759
00:48:50.080 --> 00:48:51.060
you trust
760
00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:54.740
a little bit, at least implicitly. Yeah.
761
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:56.580
And then we
762
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:58.580
we go from there and we
763
00:48:59.615 --> 00:49:04.115
crawl these followers to so the graph expands with these people. And then
764
00:49:04.734 --> 00:49:05.234
recursively,
765
00:49:05.615 --> 00:49:11.555
it starts to when someone reach a very high rank, then gets promoted. And when you get promoted,
766
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:15.099
you we we fetch your follow list, and we add new people in.
767
00:49:15.720 --> 00:49:17.420
And this is a recourse recursive,
768
00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:19.980
recursive
769
00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:22.539
initialization
770
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:23.079
that
771
00:49:24.385 --> 00:49:30.805
yeah, it's it's it's not that employee just to redo it. But, yes, if you want, you can do it. You can run your own vertex, of course.
772
00:49:32.305 --> 00:49:32.805
Yep.
773
00:49:34.305 --> 00:49:35.605
I mean, I we also,
774
00:49:37.610 --> 00:49:42.190
we did, like, the early stages of, like, just an open DVM feeds
775
00:49:43.370 --> 00:49:49.630
opt in on primal. So, like, you could use the primal app, and you can subscribe to a DVM feed that's, like,
776
00:49:50.010 --> 00:49:52.350
trending powered by Vertex or something
777
00:49:53.025 --> 00:49:53.765
or personalized
778
00:49:54.145 --> 00:49:55.125
trending or,
779
00:49:57.265 --> 00:50:07.765
so yeah. That's Look. At the end of the day, I just wanna put it out there. Like, the goal the goal with primal is for you to control your experience. Like, we we don't wanna tell you what is
780
00:50:08.070 --> 00:50:14.570
what it what you should be reading and what you shouldn't be reading. Like, the goal is for the user to have full control over their experience,
781
00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:18.330
and there's a lot of work that needs to be done
782
00:50:18.950 --> 00:50:19.450
everywhere,
783
00:50:21.295 --> 00:50:24.355
despite the conspiracy theories. But yeah.
784
00:50:24.895 --> 00:50:26.755
Do you broadcast any DVM
785
00:50:27.215 --> 00:50:28.515
feeds right now?
786
00:50:29.055 --> 00:50:30.755
No. No. No DVM feeds.
787
00:50:33.055 --> 00:50:36.275
No. We we all only have the four services
788
00:50:36.680 --> 00:50:37.260
that I
789
00:50:37.720 --> 00:50:44.780
mentioned. That's, yeah. The the let's say positioning I I see for vertex is more, as you said, b to b.
790
00:50:45.080 --> 00:50:45.980
Yeah. Because,
791
00:50:48.200 --> 00:50:50.140
if it's true that now we have micropayments,
792
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:52.595
which you can potentially
793
00:50:52.895 --> 00:50:56.195
use to pay for one one single search.
794
00:50:56.895 --> 00:51:05.990
The thing is that I think it creates a strange user experience even for seasoned Bitcoiners. Like, you download a new app, you need to top up the wallet
795
00:51:06.290 --> 00:51:07.590
so you can search.
796
00:51:08.370 --> 00:51:09.350
You know, it sounds
797
00:51:10.130 --> 00:51:10.630
counterintuitive,
798
00:51:11.010 --> 00:51:14.470
and it makes you think about things that should be, like, automatic.
799
00:51:15.170 --> 00:51:17.750
You shouldn't think, is this search worth
800
00:51:18.684 --> 00:51:19.505
90 sats?
801
00:51:19.885 --> 00:51:24.224
Like, I don't know. I I should not think about all of those steps
802
00:51:24.924 --> 00:51:27.665
while I'm using the application. So Right.
803
00:51:28.365 --> 00:51:29.984
And for example, with Primal,
804
00:51:30.444 --> 00:51:34.470
I think it could be like, the way I see it now is that the search
805
00:51:34.930 --> 00:51:37.750
the the ranking is using a follower's count,
806
00:51:38.369 --> 00:51:39.089
which is,
807
00:51:39.809 --> 00:51:40.950
like, the
808
00:51:41.410 --> 00:51:41.910
which
809
00:51:42.210 --> 00:51:44.789
Vertex also provides, but it's like the
810
00:51:45.645 --> 00:51:52.865
the worst algorithm you can you can choose, basically, because it's not really civil resistant. And in the past, I've
811
00:51:53.165 --> 00:51:53.565
I've,
812
00:51:54.205 --> 00:51:55.105
showed, like,
813
00:51:55.405 --> 00:51:57.665
how the search in mpop.word
814
00:51:58.045 --> 00:51:58.545
compares
815
00:51:58.845 --> 00:52:00.305
to the search in primal.
816
00:52:00.869 --> 00:52:02.170
For example, I think
817
00:52:02.710 --> 00:52:05.769
yeah. For example, there was a, an awesome band
818
00:52:06.630 --> 00:52:07.450
that had,
819
00:52:08.630 --> 00:52:09.450
more than
820
00:52:09.910 --> 00:52:10.869
100,000
821
00:52:10.869 --> 00:52:12.710
followers and but 99%
822
00:52:12.710 --> 00:52:18.845
of that is fake or or something like that. It's just like bots. Right? People spinning up and pubs and following
823
00:52:19.225 --> 00:52:20.045
to, to break
824
00:52:20.505 --> 00:52:22.125
the basic analysis. Right?
825
00:52:22.665 --> 00:52:23.705
Yeah, exactly. And,
826
00:52:24.665 --> 00:52:28.025
in, it's, it's actually quite a hard problem to solve because,
827
00:52:30.140 --> 00:52:39.440
you use follows to figure out who's reputable, but also you need to know when to discard some follows. And that's why I mentioned earlier the
828
00:52:39.980 --> 00:52:40.720
the recursive
829
00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:43.680
discovery of the network that we do,
830
00:52:44.005 --> 00:52:44.165
And,
831
00:52:44.805 --> 00:52:45.545
we only
832
00:52:46.405 --> 00:52:47.705
so we only fetch
833
00:52:48.565 --> 00:52:51.785
events from people that have been promoted, that have been,
834
00:52:53.125 --> 00:52:53.785
that have
835
00:52:54.165 --> 00:52:55.385
acquired reputation
836
00:52:55.845 --> 00:52:56.905
from other people.
837
00:53:00.780 --> 00:53:01.760
So we have
838
00:53:02.060 --> 00:53:03.280
impersonation detection.
839
00:53:04.060 --> 00:53:04.800
We have,
840
00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:08.240
better feeds.
841
00:53:08.860 --> 00:53:09.600
We have,
842
00:53:11.020 --> 00:53:11.520
app
843
00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:13.040
discovery and verifiability,
844
00:53:15.205 --> 00:53:16.505
and we have search.
845
00:53:18.085 --> 00:53:22.905
What other are there any other use cases that you think are low hanging fruit for something like Vertex?
846
00:53:32.550 --> 00:53:33.370
I think,
847
00:53:34.950 --> 00:53:37.130
the most flexible is rank
848
00:53:37.830 --> 00:53:40.090
profiles where you can rank a bunch of empaths
849
00:53:41.055 --> 00:53:47.395
because that can be used in so many ways inside an app your application. Like, I make an a very
850
00:53:48.255 --> 00:53:50.194
interesting example, let's say, Fontaine.
851
00:53:50.575 --> 00:53:52.035
Fontaine gives out
852
00:53:52.415 --> 00:53:53.315
the stats reward.
853
00:53:53.810 --> 00:53:56.790
I'm sure there are bots that try to game it.
854
00:53:57.410 --> 00:53:59.510
But what you could do is say, okay.
855
00:54:00.450 --> 00:54:05.730
I only give such rewards to people that that do Master login. So, also, it's a way to,
856
00:54:06.915 --> 00:54:11.895
incentivize people to use master so they can get the rewards on Fonten, for example. And then
857
00:54:12.435 --> 00:54:16.615
after they log in, they can only get the rewards if their rank is
858
00:54:16.915 --> 00:54:18.455
higher than a certain threshold.
859
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:19.540
A threshold,
860
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:21.460
low enough that it,
861
00:54:22.160 --> 00:54:27.619
it doesn't do many false positives. So it doesn't discriminate real users, but it removes
862
00:54:28.560 --> 00:54:29.060
almost
863
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:30.480
99%
864
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:32.020
of the amp ups that
865
00:54:32.505 --> 00:54:39.244
will do this game, basically, with the it's been a new amp up, listen to a few podcast, and then do it again to get a few sats.
866
00:54:39.625 --> 00:54:40.444
This is also
867
00:54:40.984 --> 00:54:44.525
an interesting possibility. Just to give some context, like,
868
00:54:45.730 --> 00:54:47.030
Nostrad band shows
869
00:54:48.050 --> 00:54:48.850
42,
870
00:54:48.850 --> 00:54:49.910
43,000,000
871
00:54:50.130 --> 00:54:50.710
m pubs.
872
00:54:51.730 --> 00:54:55.910
This is what they have in their relay. They they see all of these m pubs.
873
00:54:57.494 --> 00:54:58.234
In the
874
00:54:59.335 --> 00:55:02.795
in in that, we have 350,000
875
00:55:02.934 --> 00:55:03.434
reputable
876
00:55:04.134 --> 00:55:07.974
m pups only, so it's less than 1%. So 99%
877
00:55:07.974 --> 00:55:10.474
of the m pups are not there at the moment.
878
00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:11.680
According to
879
00:55:12.140 --> 00:55:12.800
our analysis,
880
00:55:13.180 --> 00:55:14.960
are are are spammers.
881
00:55:15.660 --> 00:55:19.680
And I think this ratio is going to increase in in the future as
882
00:55:20.140 --> 00:55:21.360
real money and
883
00:55:21.660 --> 00:55:22.160
profits
884
00:55:22.460 --> 00:55:23.440
come into Nostra,
885
00:55:23.980 --> 00:55:26.080
then the opportunity and the
886
00:55:27.395 --> 00:55:34.935
to spam is going to is going to be used, basically. Like, a lot of people spam most of the content would be AI slop.
887
00:55:35.474 --> 00:55:36.215
And so
888
00:55:36.755 --> 00:55:41.895
figure out figuring out what's real and what to store and what not to store and what to show to users
889
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:43.860
is going to be really important.
890
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:45.200
Does,
891
00:55:46.080 --> 00:55:47.300
is that data public
892
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:48.900
anywhere?
893
00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:50.820
The
894
00:55:51.680 --> 00:55:53.619
what the the number of the reputable
895
00:55:54.560 --> 00:55:55.060
users
896
00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:57.140
versus total
897
00:55:57.505 --> 00:55:58.325
pub queue seen?
898
00:56:00.785 --> 00:56:01.285
Well,
899
00:56:01.744 --> 00:56:05.305
the most of them has a stats page, and then you can see
900
00:56:05.744 --> 00:56:09.205
But there is a closed source. Do you have your own do you have your own?
901
00:56:12.299 --> 00:56:14.720
No. No. From my own, like, in every
902
00:56:15.339 --> 00:56:16.000
in every,
903
00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:16.880
response,
904
00:56:17.339 --> 00:56:20.079
it is written this this number of how many
905
00:56:20.539 --> 00:56:23.359
it's called the nodes, how many nodes we have in the database.
906
00:56:23.664 --> 00:56:24.964
And that is useful
907
00:56:25.345 --> 00:56:28.484
if you want to create, we we added to every response
908
00:56:29.105 --> 00:56:31.265
because you can use that data for,
909
00:56:31.984 --> 00:56:33.365
coming up with a threshold.
910
00:56:34.224 --> 00:56:36.164
Got it. Like, this threshold
911
00:56:36.720 --> 00:56:44.020
depends on how many people there are in the graph, basically. That's why we included it. And I checked this morning, and it's three fifty.
912
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:46.180
Got it.
913
00:56:46.720 --> 00:56:47.859
Three fifty thousand.
914
00:56:48.160 --> 00:56:51.460
But that's that's not necessarily actives. Right?
915
00:56:52.335 --> 00:56:53.695
No. Exactly. No. It's,
916
00:56:54.734 --> 00:56:58.595
only reputable. Like, for example, I make, like, MicroSailor
917
00:56:59.375 --> 00:57:06.115
or Adam Beck. I think they Or, like, Balaji Balaji came and made one post and then left, and he counts. Right?
918
00:57:06.660 --> 00:57:09.559
Yeah. Exactly. Those those do count in that three fifty
919
00:57:10.099 --> 00:57:12.119
because they are followed by many.
920
00:57:12.819 --> 00:57:15.400
But, yeah, the I would say active,
921
00:57:15.940 --> 00:57:17.640
and this is all, like, an estimate,
922
00:57:18.180 --> 00:57:21.160
but I think active would be half of that number.
923
00:57:21.765 --> 00:57:23.125
So 170,
924
00:57:23.125 --> 00:57:24.325
150,000,
925
00:57:24.724 --> 00:57:25.545
real users
926
00:57:25.845 --> 00:57:26.585
of Nasr
927
00:57:27.125 --> 00:57:27.944
seems like
928
00:57:28.325 --> 00:57:29.065
seems accurate.
929
00:57:30.244 --> 00:57:30.984
Got it.
930
00:57:32.805 --> 00:57:34.664
Yeah. I think that sounds about right.
931
00:57:36.450 --> 00:57:37.430
I do think
932
00:57:38.290 --> 00:57:40.150
there's something to be said about
933
00:57:42.050 --> 00:57:46.550
when we're talking publicly about it being a little bit less conservative about the real number
934
00:57:46.930 --> 00:57:47.430
or
935
00:57:47.810 --> 00:57:57.615
the the exact number. I I mean, it's always an estimate. But, like, I'm pretty sure Blue Sky, whatever stat page that people use that no one can actually independently verify
936
00:57:58.154 --> 00:58:03.775
is the numbers are, like, incredibly inflated. And then who the hell knows, like, how many users there are x
937
00:58:04.080 --> 00:58:07.620
or Telegram or something? Like, that's just complete trust me, bro.
938
00:58:08.560 --> 00:58:09.860
And sometimes I think,
939
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:11.720
we
940
00:58:12.160 --> 00:58:19.700
it's good that we hold ourselves to a higher standard, but maybe we hold ourselves a little bit too high of a standard because people then try and compare them apples to apples.
941
00:58:20.214 --> 00:58:24.635
And it's it's it's not apples to apples. Like, I mean, I I've see
942
00:58:25.575 --> 00:58:29.515
there are situations where so Cali, for instance, hasn't deleted his x account,
943
00:58:30.535 --> 00:58:36.780
and he posts to x, and he gets way more engagement on his notes, like real engagement, like people
944
00:58:37.080 --> 00:58:44.680
replying to him and asking questions and engaging with him than he does on x. But x supposedly has, you know, 650,000,000
945
00:58:44.680 --> 00:58:45.180
users,
946
00:58:45.695 --> 00:58:47.475
and we have, like, a 100,000.
947
00:58:47.535 --> 00:58:51.955
And so then the numbers just don't add up. It just, you know, you're like, what's going on there?
948
00:58:52.415 --> 00:58:54.915
So it's just something to keep in mind, people.
949
00:58:55.375 --> 00:58:56.835
Fran, I see your comment
950
00:58:57.615 --> 00:58:58.755
about signatures
951
00:58:59.135 --> 00:59:03.980
and the problem with caching service. The problem with caching service leaves signatures intact.
952
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:07.340
Signatures are delivered to the end user.
953
00:59:07.640 --> 00:59:09.580
The primal apps right now,
954
00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:12.540
I believe, are not actually verifying signatures
955
00:59:13.080 --> 00:59:13.580
yet.
956
00:59:15.515 --> 00:59:19.055
They they will in the future. We just need the app to get more performant.
957
00:59:19.515 --> 00:59:24.735
It's been, you know, a struggle to just get it stable as it is. And a lot of other other
958
00:59:25.035 --> 00:59:27.135
apps also aren't verifying signatures.
959
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:29.620
I like how does it,
960
00:59:30.080 --> 00:59:32.100
once again, to give them a shout out,
961
00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:33.300
where he
962
00:59:34.240 --> 00:59:35.700
there's basically an option.
963
00:59:36.160 --> 00:59:37.620
There's an option in settings,
964
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:42.475
whether or not you wanna do signature verification or not. And the reason is because
965
00:59:43.175 --> 00:59:43.675
primarily
966
00:59:44.135 --> 00:59:47.515
is is a performance issue and also kills battery
967
00:59:48.055 --> 00:59:50.475
life. Yeah. But, yeah, that is the goal.
968
00:59:50.855 --> 00:59:52.235
But, yeah, you can actually
969
00:59:52.735 --> 00:59:55.675
one of the features I'm actually really proud of with primal
970
00:59:56.530 --> 00:59:58.070
is you can go to a note.
971
00:59:58.530 --> 01:00:01.670
And if you just press the three little dots,
972
01:00:02.130 --> 01:00:08.230
you can press copy raw data, and that's the full raw data. You have with signature in there, everything.
973
01:00:08.610 --> 01:00:09.670
You can just easily
974
01:00:11.625 --> 01:00:14.525
save that, export that, verify that.
975
01:00:15.545 --> 01:00:18.925
It was an important thing to have in the little drop down button.
976
01:00:21.785 --> 01:00:23.565
Yeah. Go on. You're gonna say something?
977
01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:26.160
Yeah. I wanted to say that,
978
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:30.340
like, the cost of signature verification
979
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:34.020
definitely is is something real. It's something, like,
980
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:34.820
that
981
01:00:35.200 --> 01:00:38.100
hurts the performance and the battery of clients,
982
01:00:40.055 --> 01:00:41.995
mostly, you know, on smartphone,
983
01:00:42.775 --> 01:00:43.915
low power devices.
984
01:00:44.295 --> 01:00:46.795
That's also why I'm kinda bullish on
985
01:00:47.175 --> 01:00:50.235
this idea that I mentioned of, client side verification
986
01:00:51.015 --> 01:00:52.075
that you can have
987
01:00:52.610 --> 01:00:53.110
almost
988
01:00:53.490 --> 01:00:58.630
both, the the best of both worlds. It's a trade off straight in the middle where you can
989
01:00:59.170 --> 01:01:00.630
delegate all of this work
990
01:01:01.170 --> 01:01:04.230
to, in this case, the Vertex server, but,
991
01:01:05.895 --> 01:01:08.795
check that at least the server is not,
992
01:01:10.215 --> 01:01:11.755
is not lying, for example,
993
01:01:12.135 --> 01:01:14.395
in a in a way that would be bad, like,
994
01:01:15.255 --> 01:01:16.075
saying that
995
01:01:16.775 --> 01:01:18.780
an impersonator is the real one.
996
01:01:19.260 --> 01:01:23.600
This is the worst case scenario. And then with this sort of client side verification,
997
01:01:25.260 --> 01:01:28.540
you would be able to avoid the worst case scenario. So it's,
998
01:01:28.940 --> 01:01:31.440
yeah, trade off, I think, in the middle. And
999
01:01:31.855 --> 01:01:32.355
I
1000
01:01:32.815 --> 01:01:34.275
believe in general, Nostril
1001
01:01:34.895 --> 01:01:35.795
apps should,
1002
01:01:37.055 --> 01:01:37.795
or could,
1003
01:01:38.975 --> 01:01:40.035
explore this area
1004
01:01:40.495 --> 01:01:44.435
because many go straight into, okay, let's do everything client side.
1005
01:01:45.180 --> 01:01:51.440
And then you find that your app is barely working because it takes forever to load every anything.
1006
01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:54.000
Yeah. Or, or maybe,
1007
01:01:56.140 --> 01:02:01.305
so situation in the middle, like, yes, primal, where there is a caching server there
1008
01:02:02.005 --> 01:02:08.825
where you obviously compromise a little bit on trust, but you get a lot more performance, a lot better user experience.
1009
01:02:11.605 --> 01:02:14.745
Yeah. I mean, we I the cool part about Nostr is that
1010
01:02:15.510 --> 01:02:19.590
you can use it in any way you want, and I it'd be nice to see more
1011
01:02:20.230 --> 01:02:21.530
there's a lot of experimentation.
1012
01:02:22.070 --> 01:02:24.970
But in general, I lean to more experimentation
1013
01:02:25.270 --> 01:02:28.335
and more different trade off models being experimented with,
1014
01:02:29.135 --> 01:02:33.955
than less, particularly at this point in Nostra adoption. Like, let's test out all the things,
1015
01:02:34.335 --> 01:02:36.515
play with them, iterate from there.
1016
01:02:37.775 --> 01:02:39.315
I don't think there's a
1017
01:02:40.095 --> 01:02:44.430
a best Nostra app. I think the Nostra app that's most useful for someone
1018
01:02:45.050 --> 01:02:47.470
is depends on their technical competence,
1019
01:02:47.850 --> 01:02:49.790
their use case, and their threat model.
1020
01:02:50.970 --> 01:02:56.190
And that's the beauty of Nostra. The beauty of Nostra is that, ultimately, the user has agency, and
1021
01:02:56.515 --> 01:02:58.455
they can use it how they want to
1022
01:02:59.635 --> 01:03:00.775
and more of that.
1023
01:03:03.315 --> 01:03:13.140
What else was I gonna say? I guess this also just in general for relay operators, this your service could be very useful in terms of what notes I keep. A lot of people talk about, like, paid relays
1024
01:03:13.600 --> 01:03:16.900
versus free relays, but maybe the middle ground is
1025
01:03:18.240 --> 01:03:19.140
like a Vertex
1026
01:03:19.600 --> 01:03:21.620
spam mitigated relay. Right?
1027
01:03:22.295 --> 01:03:26.235
Yeah. Yeah. I actually wrote a a a blog post on,
1028
01:03:26.615 --> 01:03:27.435
where I,
1029
01:03:28.615 --> 01:03:29.275
let's say,
1030
01:03:29.975 --> 01:03:32.935
explained that this this algorithm I designed for,
1031
01:03:34.910 --> 01:03:41.810
for, open relays. So relays that do not do any spam filtering at the moment, like the big ones, Danlos, Primal, Nostradand.
1032
01:03:43.710 --> 01:03:46.050
They are going to be flooded by spam.
1033
01:03:46.625 --> 01:03:47.525
One way or another.
1034
01:03:48.145 --> 01:03:52.085
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That is going to get 100 times worse for sure
1035
01:03:52.385 --> 01:03:55.525
because if there is an incentive to spam, people will just spam.
1036
01:03:56.385 --> 01:03:58.565
So what what you can do there is
1037
01:03:59.505 --> 01:04:00.385
you can use,
1038
01:04:00.944 --> 01:04:01.425
the
1039
01:04:02.550 --> 01:04:07.850
you can apply a rate limit, and this rate limit is smart. It depends on who
1040
01:04:08.310 --> 01:04:11.530
is the user, who is the author of the event. Like
1041
01:04:12.070 --> 01:04:14.890
because as a relay operator, you want to optimize.
1042
01:04:15.245 --> 01:04:16.065
You have an
1043
01:04:16.445 --> 01:04:18.625
optimization problem. You want more of the notes
1044
01:04:19.005 --> 01:04:21.985
people like and less of the notes people don't like.
1045
01:04:23.005 --> 01:04:23.985
You can use,
1046
01:04:24.445 --> 01:04:34.010
as a neorealistic, the reputation of the author of the event. Like, if a bunch of people follow Odell, it's most likely because Odell writes interesting stuff.
1047
01:04:34.550 --> 01:04:37.210
And so you can say, okay. You have late limit,
1048
01:04:37.510 --> 01:04:40.010
but you have larger, bigger rate limits.
1049
01:04:40.310 --> 01:04:45.244
If you are mister no one, then you have very small rate limit, and then you cannot write anymore.
1050
01:04:45.785 --> 01:04:48.525
So you can have, like, a one event per minute,
1051
01:04:48.984 --> 01:04:54.125
and if you are hotel and you have 100 or 1,000 events per minute.
1052
01:04:54.665 --> 01:04:56.924
You have reputation based rate limit.
1053
01:04:57.650 --> 01:04:58.390
And then
1054
01:04:58.690 --> 01:04:59.750
the the final piece
1055
01:05:00.290 --> 01:05:05.030
of the the blog is because this this ranks in the in the paper
1056
01:05:05.570 --> 01:05:06.950
are provided by Vertex.
1057
01:05:07.330 --> 01:05:09.030
So how can you avoid
1058
01:05:10.345 --> 01:05:10.925
a spammer
1059
01:05:11.625 --> 01:05:12.125
making
1060
01:05:12.825 --> 01:05:15.405
you waste a bunch of money in Vertex, let's say?
1061
01:05:15.865 --> 01:05:27.340
Like, I create 1,000,000,000 keys. All these 1,000,000,000 keys writes to your relay, so you make a bunch of call to Vertex. And then I will be happy, but you probably will not be super happy. What you can do there is you can use,
1062
01:05:29.340 --> 01:05:30.480
IP rate limiting
1063
01:05:31.980 --> 01:05:33.200
for how many times
1064
01:05:33.980 --> 01:05:34.880
anyone can
1065
01:05:35.820 --> 01:05:37.760
call the vertex relay, basically.
1066
01:05:38.540 --> 01:05:39.040
So
1067
01:05:40.365 --> 01:05:46.305
direct limited per event is based on the reputation and and how many new amp can you make
1068
01:05:47.165 --> 01:05:52.705
me pay for the rank. That is based on the IP. And this with this scheme, with this two
1069
01:05:53.049 --> 01:05:57.869
step approach, I think you can get pretty good, I I made, let's say, a cost analysis,
1070
01:05:58.170 --> 01:05:59.869
and it's way cheaper to use
1071
01:06:00.170 --> 01:06:03.950
for for the defender that pays Vertex than it is for the attacker that
1072
01:06:04.329 --> 01:06:05.549
buys IP addresses.
1073
01:06:06.115 --> 01:06:09.255
Right. It's a matter of cost, but it's the
1074
01:06:09.955 --> 01:06:13.095
it's the defender is highly favored in this case.
1075
01:06:13.635 --> 01:06:14.375
What about
1076
01:06:14.835 --> 01:06:17.975
first of all, I think that's really clever. It's a nice trade off balance.
1077
01:06:19.860 --> 01:06:32.815
Particularly, like, reputation based rate limiting is really interesting because it solves that issue that people have with web of trust, the core issue, which is like, what about new users that don't have a reputation yet? It's like, okay. Well, they'll just
1078
01:06:33.115 --> 01:06:35.455
be softly rate limited on public relay
1079
01:06:35.915 --> 01:06:39.215
until they build up a reputation. So they can still get stuff out.
1080
01:06:39.915 --> 01:06:41.695
They just can't spam easily.
1081
01:06:42.235 --> 01:06:43.695
What about people that,
1082
01:06:47.370 --> 01:06:49.230
I'm just laughing at the live chat.
1083
01:06:49.850 --> 01:06:51.710
They they, like, only fans stood up.
1084
01:06:53.130 --> 01:06:53.630
The
1085
01:06:54.490 --> 01:06:55.310
what about,
1086
01:06:56.410 --> 01:06:56.910
like,
1087
01:06:57.530 --> 01:07:02.030
the false positives of people using shared IPs? I mean, I think a general
1088
01:07:03.155 --> 01:07:07.655
a general good practice on the Internet, and especially when you're using Nostr,
1089
01:07:08.275 --> 01:07:14.375
is to use a hosted VPN, a shared VPN that like a Proton or a Moldad or an Obscura
1090
01:07:15.640 --> 01:07:21.580
that has a bunch of users that are all using the same IP address. And that's actually a feature, not a bug because,
1091
01:07:22.040 --> 01:07:24.940
yes, you can self host your own VPN, and then you have
1092
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:32.105
to then you don't have to trust anyone, but that means you have a fixed IP address. So I actually like hosted VPNs from reputable providers
1093
01:07:32.645 --> 01:07:36.105
because it means I have a shared IP with a bunch of other people. What about that situation?
1094
01:07:36.725 --> 01:07:37.225
Because
1095
01:07:37.685 --> 01:07:40.665
wouldn't you just get a bunch of people coming out of the popular VPNs
1096
01:07:41.285 --> 01:07:43.865
and then you'd end up block is it like m pub
1097
01:07:44.210 --> 01:07:46.150
plus IP? Is it, like, a combination?
1098
01:07:47.410 --> 01:07:47.809
It's,
1099
01:07:48.289 --> 01:07:48.690
not it's,
1100
01:07:49.809 --> 01:07:52.630
because it is the two steps are this in this way.
1101
01:07:53.329 --> 01:07:54.710
A new event comes in.
1102
01:07:55.650 --> 01:07:57.670
If I have the rank of the author,
1103
01:07:58.285 --> 01:08:01.025
then I apply and pop based the rate limiting.
1104
01:08:02.525 --> 01:08:04.545
Sorry. Reputation based rate limiting.
1105
01:08:05.325 --> 01:08:12.145
If I don't have the rank of the author, because maybe it's a new amp up or maybe I haven't asked for this rank
1106
01:08:12.605 --> 01:08:13.105
yet,
1107
01:08:13.480 --> 01:08:14.300
then I put
1108
01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:16.300
this pop key in a queue.
1109
01:08:17.320 --> 01:08:18.780
And then this IP
1110
01:08:20.120 --> 01:08:21.340
can only put
1111
01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:25.500
100, let's say, or a certain number of new pop keys that I haven't
1112
01:08:26.295 --> 01:08:29.355
I've never seen in this queue before it gets retlimited.
1113
01:08:29.815 --> 01:08:33.275
Got it. Retlimited in this case means that you cannot put
1114
01:08:33.655 --> 01:08:34.155
new
1115
01:08:34.535 --> 01:08:35.995
keys into this queue.
1116
01:08:36.375 --> 01:08:39.570
Then how is this queue going to be used? You
1117
01:08:39.950 --> 01:08:40.930
take 1,000
1118
01:08:41.230 --> 01:08:42.530
of these pop keys,
1119
01:08:43.070 --> 01:08:44.850
a batch of those 1,000
1120
01:08:45.470 --> 01:08:52.050
keys, and then you ask Vertex for the ranks in one single call. And so you you save some money because it's a batch
1121
01:08:53.105 --> 01:08:53.605
request.
1122
01:08:54.465 --> 01:08:57.925
And so if a lot of users come in from,
1123
01:08:58.945 --> 01:08:59.445
VPN
1124
01:09:00.305 --> 01:09:03.365
and you have never heard of any of those,
1125
01:09:04.065 --> 01:09:06.885
you just rank a few of them and then
1126
01:09:07.250 --> 01:09:10.870
and then it would slow down, basically. And then after some time,
1127
01:09:11.810 --> 01:09:15.989
depending on how you have configured this limit, they will be able to
1128
01:09:17.170 --> 01:09:19.989
to to write, basically, to the relay.
1129
01:09:20.465 --> 01:09:24.645
So, yeah, it's not a perfect solution by any means, but there are no perfect solution
1130
01:09:25.105 --> 01:09:27.905
for for, like, free free relays. It's,
1131
01:09:28.865 --> 01:09:33.905
you could use proof of work, but then you would have your smartphone trying to compete with,
1132
01:09:34.385 --> 01:09:40.620
an AC. Yeah. Proof of proof of work doesn't work. For this to pay, but then it's not a free relay anymore.
1133
01:09:41.160 --> 01:09:41.480
And,
1134
01:09:42.120 --> 01:09:45.500
and it creates a stranger like, you're a new user. You have to pay,
1135
01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:48.300
like, first thing. We can't have new users
1136
01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:54.315
paying first thing. We'll never we'll never get you we'll never get substantial user base
1137
01:09:54.775 --> 01:09:58.315
if they have to pay in Bitcoin before they even get started.
1138
01:09:59.255 --> 01:10:00.795
Before they even get Bitcoin,
1139
01:10:01.655 --> 01:10:02.955
which is life. Exactly.
1140
01:10:04.570 --> 01:10:07.870
Oh, yeah. I like that. I think that's clever. It's a clever trade off balance.
1141
01:10:09.290 --> 01:10:12.750
Any other use cases you have on the top of your head? We've gone through a bunch already.
1142
01:10:14.650 --> 01:10:17.390
Yeah. So we we said the search, recommendations,
1143
01:10:18.615 --> 01:10:19.595
removing spam,
1144
01:10:20.615 --> 01:10:21.115
protecting,
1145
01:10:22.535 --> 01:10:23.355
free relays,
1146
01:10:25.735 --> 01:10:27.675
the the Fontan one, the
1147
01:10:28.935 --> 01:10:29.675
let's say,
1148
01:10:29.975 --> 01:10:30.475
protecting,
1149
01:10:31.255 --> 01:10:31.755
from
1150
01:10:33.210 --> 01:10:36.190
giving out money to bots that automate the process.
1151
01:10:36.570 --> 01:10:37.070
Yep.
1152
01:10:41.130 --> 01:10:43.470
Not I I don't I don't have
1153
01:10:44.010 --> 01:10:50.335
more ideas. I think we did this kinda Those are those are a lot. You shouldn't feel pressure. I just wanna make sure we didn't
1154
01:10:50.955 --> 01:10:52.095
miss some low hanging
1155
01:10:52.475 --> 01:10:53.855
fruit. What is your overall
1156
01:10:57.960 --> 01:10:58.460
diagnosis
1157
01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:01.960
or thoughts on the Nasr ecosystem right now? How do you
1158
01:11:02.920 --> 01:11:06.140
I know a lot of people are feeling burnout. There's a lot of,
1159
01:11:07.400 --> 01:11:08.460
bearish sentiment,
1160
01:11:10.200 --> 01:11:12.220
on on Nasr recently.
1161
01:11:14.485 --> 01:11:16.425
Do you think we're in a good place? Where
1162
01:11:16.725 --> 01:11:18.425
do you think we need to improve?
1163
01:11:20.725 --> 01:11:23.945
No. I think we are in a good place. Like, the fact that
1164
01:11:24.325 --> 01:11:26.085
Nasr is not growing is
1165
01:11:28.160 --> 01:11:32.900
but it's not shrinking also. It's, it's it's I think it's we are in a plateau.
1166
01:11:33.360 --> 01:11:38.260
And, it means that, like, if you're in a plateau, it means that there is retention.
1167
01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:40.180
And a lot of, like,
1168
01:11:40.575 --> 01:11:43.395
from personal experience or more qualitatively,
1169
01:11:44.255 --> 01:11:52.915
I think Nostra is much better already than x. The problem is always the network effect is so it is too small at the moment. But I think
1170
01:11:53.455 --> 01:11:54.355
this will change
1171
01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:59.140
exactly how new users are going to come in, like,
1172
01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:03.380
where the new wave is will come from. I have no idea.
1173
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:07.060
I I think there is a lot of potential in, like, communities.
1174
01:12:08.025 --> 01:12:09.965
Yeah. Seeing and I haven't
1175
01:12:10.345 --> 01:12:12.925
seen a very convincing solution.
1176
01:12:13.625 --> 01:12:15.625
Sorry to anyone who's working on it.
1177
01:12:16.665 --> 01:12:19.165
But, just my, you know, my my
1178
01:12:19.545 --> 01:12:22.205
my honest opinion, I I don't have
1179
01:12:22.940 --> 01:12:25.040
an app that I can recommend
1180
01:12:25.900 --> 01:12:33.280
to my friends that they can use as a replacement for, like, Telegram or or their community for a specific topic.
1181
01:12:33.659 --> 01:12:36.159
Like, I don't have something that I can confidently
1182
01:12:36.460 --> 01:12:36.960
recommend.
1183
01:12:38.045 --> 01:12:39.985
I think there there is a lot of opportunity.
1184
01:12:40.325 --> 01:12:40.825
And,
1185
01:12:41.165 --> 01:12:42.224
also, it's
1186
01:12:42.844 --> 01:12:51.920
it's going to be also quite interesting because that, I think, would solve one of the biggest problem of web of trust, which is, like, the cold start. Like, how do you,
1187
01:12:53.100 --> 01:12:55.920
like, how do you how how can you use
1188
01:12:56.540 --> 01:13:02.640
without using global algorithms, which which can always use. But without that, how can you,
1189
01:13:03.355 --> 01:13:03.935
you know,
1190
01:13:04.875 --> 01:13:08.815
see content and get recommendation if you haven't even started following anyone?
1191
01:13:09.275 --> 01:13:12.735
Yeah. And that I think can be or how do you recognize
1192
01:13:13.115 --> 01:13:16.255
a new user from a bot? How do you differentiate
1193
01:13:16.555 --> 01:13:18.120
between the two because they look
1194
01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:19.100
indistinguishable?
1195
01:13:21.080 --> 01:13:23.660
One way would be, I think, communities, like,
1196
01:13:24.040 --> 01:13:26.540
some way to know that you have been invited
1197
01:13:26.840 --> 01:13:27.640
in a closed,
1198
01:13:28.200 --> 01:13:29.260
reputable community.
1199
01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:32.380
Like, the community exists before you
1200
01:13:40.255 --> 01:13:45.795
before. And then because you have been invited and you are, like, part of the public
1201
01:13:46.175 --> 01:13:47.235
list of the community,
1202
01:13:47.650 --> 01:13:51.590
then we can say, okay. Then you must not be about your most likely,
1203
01:13:52.690 --> 01:14:00.630
a new user. Because you're invited by someone that's reputable or something. Yeah. Exactly. Maybe they don't get followed right away, but they get invited.
1204
01:14:01.585 --> 01:14:07.685
So this means that there are, like, most likely existing relationship in mid space or other places
1205
01:14:08.385 --> 01:14:08.885
that
1206
01:14:09.185 --> 01:14:11.284
also are created on Oster,
1207
01:14:12.465 --> 01:14:15.605
which gives, for example, Vertex, but also other
1208
01:14:15.990 --> 01:14:17.930
other solutions, more information
1209
01:14:18.390 --> 01:14:24.090
to distinguish between new users and bots, which or spammers, which is really, really hard problem.
1210
01:14:25.030 --> 01:14:27.050
Yeah. I mean, we've been thinking about that
1211
01:14:27.350 --> 01:14:30.410
at least, like, from an MVP level on primal.
1212
01:14:32.715 --> 01:14:37.775
In term like, one of the most bullish things, I think, in in Bitcoin fundamentals is,
1213
01:14:39.275 --> 01:14:50.270
the meetup ecosystem. There's just meetups all over the world. And and, specifically, like, living through COVID, they told us we weren't allowed to go and meet with people. And at the same time, Bitcoin meetups grew,
1214
01:14:50.890 --> 01:14:54.110
and they got bigger and bigger. And I saw this in Nashville firsthand
1215
01:14:54.970 --> 01:15:01.875
where we had, like, a meetup of meetup organizers from, like, all these tech meetups, and they all got destroyed during COVID.
1216
01:15:02.415 --> 01:15:12.755
They tried to go remote. It didn't work. People stopped coming. You know, like, random ass tech meetups, not Bitcoin related. But our meetups kept growing, and we got to, like, 200 people or whatever,
1217
01:15:13.490 --> 01:15:16.070
per month in the last bull market, which was crazy.
1218
01:15:16.450 --> 01:15:17.670
But my point is
1219
01:15:18.930 --> 01:15:20.470
is in that meetup community,
1220
01:15:21.730 --> 01:15:22.230
I
1221
01:15:23.250 --> 01:15:31.865
I there I I ended up I ended up befriending a lot of the organizers from other meetups. And one of the ideas that we had that was kinda low lift
1222
01:15:32.325 --> 01:15:32.825
was
1223
01:15:33.765 --> 01:15:38.425
giving the meetup organizers the ability to create, like, a primal invite link
1224
01:15:38.805 --> 01:15:39.545
that automatically,
1225
01:15:42.679 --> 01:15:46.699
they they curate which relays you choose. They curate who you follow
1226
01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:47.739
at start.
1227
01:15:48.040 --> 01:15:54.300
They follow back you at start and kind of just automatically jump starts your experience from a hand holding perspective.
1228
01:15:56.385 --> 01:15:59.284
And I think that could be kinda powerful, but also
1229
01:15:59.585 --> 01:16:02.005
very low lift. Like, that would be an early
1230
01:16:02.784 --> 01:16:03.284
implementation.
1231
01:16:03.585 --> 01:16:07.764
Like, I think we can do much more interesting things. And, specifically, like, I I like
1232
01:16:09.480 --> 01:16:12.060
I like what Huddl bot's trying with Flotilla.
1233
01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:14.380
Like Yeah. Discord replacements,
1234
01:16:14.840 --> 01:16:17.020
like, seem like an obvious answer.
1235
01:16:17.640 --> 01:16:21.420
Obviously, like, white noise is kinda trying to do something there.
1236
01:16:24.275 --> 01:16:29.735
I see Diana saying that primal recommends to follow certain people at start.
1237
01:16:30.114 --> 01:16:33.815
You know, it's like it's trade offs all the way down. I first of all,
1238
01:16:34.435 --> 01:16:40.010
we tried to refine it. So, like, it first of all, it asks you interests before it gives you a follow list.
1239
01:16:41.190 --> 01:16:44.969
And then the follow list is optional. It's not it doesn't, like, default
1240
01:16:45.270 --> 01:16:46.090
follow people.
1241
01:16:47.590 --> 01:16:52.409
But you also have the opposite problem where, like, I've used Amethyst and onboarded people on the Amethyst,
1242
01:16:53.145 --> 01:17:00.205
and they start up with an empty feed, which is where you're never gonna get any new users if they start off with an empty feed. So,
1243
01:17:00.985 --> 01:17:05.165
or we will get new users, but we'll get much less. Like, only a Sith speaks in absolutes.
1244
01:17:05.580 --> 01:17:09.360
So, like, we gotta, like, play with different things and try different things and nothing's perfect.
1245
01:17:10.540 --> 01:17:14.320
But I, yeah, I do like the idea of communities. I'm rambling on, but Ravel,
1246
01:17:15.980 --> 01:17:16.800
of Nasocial,
1247
01:17:17.815 --> 01:17:21.594
who is also one of the early employees with Jack at Twitter,
1248
01:17:23.735 --> 01:17:30.554
he made an interesting example to me when we were hanging out one day, which is there's, like, a group on Facebook
1249
01:17:31.969 --> 01:17:33.730
that is, like, 400,000
1250
01:17:33.730 --> 01:17:40.770
people, and all they do is post funny pictures of people riding horses and, like, funny videos of people riding horses. That's 400,000
1251
01:17:40.770 --> 01:17:44.150
people. And they they have a funny horse community.
1252
01:17:44.755 --> 01:17:48.295
And they have to deal with Facebook censorship because the PETA people,
1253
01:17:51.155 --> 01:17:52.215
by the way, I,
1254
01:17:52.595 --> 01:17:57.735
I, I don't think people should hurt animals. I think there's a special place in hell for, for people that
1255
01:17:58.099 --> 01:18:01.639
do that for, for non food reasons, like people that torture animals,
1256
01:18:01.940 --> 01:18:04.599
but PETA is a terrorist organization. But besides that,
1257
01:18:05.300 --> 01:18:10.199
they report there, they get a bunch of censorship because PETA like mass reports their content.
1258
01:18:11.165 --> 01:18:16.045
And it's not the type of community that you think would get censorship. But anyway, there's 400,000
1259
01:18:16.045 --> 01:18:17.185
people that wanna
1260
01:18:17.485 --> 01:18:19.985
post funny pictures of people riding horses
1261
01:18:20.445 --> 01:18:24.305
that if we had a community app might onboard to Nasr and automatically
1262
01:18:24.685 --> 01:18:30.040
be in their own little web of trust and could kinda bootstrap things. That was my long winded example.
1263
01:18:31.219 --> 01:18:39.320
Yeah. And as you said, like, it's a shame that a lot of Bitcoin meetups, they well, at least the one that I am into, like, they they use Telegram.
1264
01:18:39.860 --> 01:18:41.239
So which is literally
1265
01:18:42.115 --> 01:18:43.895
non non private, unencrypted.
1266
01:18:44.195 --> 01:18:45.955
Everything is clear text.
1267
01:18:47.075 --> 01:18:48.615
It's like I mean, it's horrible.
1268
01:18:49.635 --> 01:18:51.235
Yeah. It's not it's not,
1269
01:18:54.355 --> 01:18:55.735
you have a bunch of problems
1270
01:18:56.260 --> 01:19:00.440
caused by impersonator. Like, all the time, people that mess DM's you and,
1271
01:19:01.220 --> 01:19:05.080
even though it's a full centralized thing and you don't even get privacy.
1272
01:19:05.700 --> 01:19:09.000
So force you they force you to do a phone number.
1273
01:19:09.965 --> 01:19:10.704
So I,
1274
01:19:11.724 --> 01:19:13.905
people know I deleted my ex account.
1275
01:19:15.005 --> 01:19:20.445
But at the same time I deleted my ex account, I actually deleted my Telegram too. I'm a big deleter. I like deleting things.
1276
01:19:21.724 --> 01:19:26.780
And it caused a lot of issues in the beginning because so much of the Bitcoin community runs through Telegram.
1277
01:19:27.480 --> 01:19:27.980
And
1278
01:19:28.360 --> 01:19:33.739
I probably lost touch with a bunch of people who only contacted me through x DMs and Telegram DMs.
1279
01:19:35.655 --> 01:19:40.395
But the rider dies figured out that they can message me on signal, and I still communicate with them on signal.
1280
01:19:40.775 --> 01:19:41.435
But, anyway,
1281
01:19:41.895 --> 01:19:43.275
I taught a class,
1282
01:19:44.775 --> 01:19:46.395
for the plan b school,
1283
01:19:47.015 --> 01:19:48.315
that's run out of Lugano,
1284
01:19:50.070 --> 01:19:51.530
by Giacomo and others,
1285
01:19:51.990 --> 01:19:54.090
and their whole class is on Telegram.
1286
01:19:55.110 --> 01:19:55.610
And
1287
01:19:56.150 --> 01:20:03.370
so I signed up I've I said I'll create a burner account on Telegram just because I love q and a. Right? Like, I'm I'm giving a presentation
1288
01:20:03.865 --> 01:20:06.765
to 200 students. I wanna read the freaking q and a.
1289
01:20:07.305 --> 01:20:11.085
So I created a burner telegram account. I used a burner phone number.
1290
01:20:13.385 --> 01:20:19.565
And the first phone number I couldn't use because it had already been registered to a telegram account. So I had to get another burner account.
1291
01:20:20.080 --> 01:20:22.740
And then as soon as I signed up as fake name,
1292
01:20:23.360 --> 01:20:36.905
burner email, burner phone number, as soon as I signed up, they blocked my account, and I got just blocked out. So they have a huge bot problem, but, also, like, if you wanna actually use it, it creates all these issues if you wanna try and use it in a relatively private
1293
01:20:37.285 --> 01:20:37.865
way. Anyway,
1294
01:20:38.725 --> 01:20:41.785
eventually, they unblocked my account, and then I deleted it again. But
1295
01:20:42.325 --> 01:20:44.585
that's my long winded Telegram. Fuck Telegram.
1296
01:20:45.045 --> 01:20:47.625
We need to replace all these things. I think we'll get there.
1297
01:20:48.070 --> 01:20:50.730
Another example of web of trust would be
1298
01:20:51.350 --> 01:20:53.130
for that that kind of use. Yeah.
1299
01:20:53.750 --> 01:20:56.489
That's that's that's that's also a nice one. Like,
1300
01:20:58.469 --> 01:20:58.969
yes.
1301
01:20:59.510 --> 01:21:00.010
You,
1302
01:21:00.715 --> 01:21:04.795
like, you get you have you have a message application, and then you get,
1303
01:21:05.995 --> 01:21:08.094
1,000,000 request of, hey.
1304
01:21:09.035 --> 01:21:16.500
Hi there or something like that. Like, you should find a way to filter out all of them except the three real ones,
1305
01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:20.100
and this is where the reputation of the sender comes in
1306
01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:22.820
for this initial, let's say, initial
1307
01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:25.380
starting of the conversation. Right.
1308
01:21:26.000 --> 01:21:28.000
And it should be user configurable. Like, I
1309
01:21:28.825 --> 01:21:29.325
Yeah.
1310
01:21:29.865 --> 01:21:32.445
I I get a ton of inbound messages.
1311
01:21:33.145 --> 01:21:35.005
And, like, it'd be cool if I could
1312
01:21:35.385 --> 01:21:41.325
toggle different things for how I view my inbox. Right? How I view who can message me and who cannot.
1313
01:21:41.719 --> 01:21:44.699
And there's been attempts to do stuff like this
1314
01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:49.420
that I think just fall flat and they just fail. Like, one of them was like,
1315
01:21:50.760 --> 01:22:08.915
Balaji's old company. I forget what it was called, but, like, you had to pay to message. Like, I don't want people to have to pay to send me a message. I think that's just automatically off the table. And then on Twitter now, like, you have to, like, you could, you can set, like, oh, blue checks only. Only people that have verified their identity can message you. Also to me off the table.
1316
01:22:09.455 --> 01:22:10.685
There's no Yeah.
1317
01:22:11.719 --> 01:22:15.660
I think the the a very interesting idea that just came to mind,
1318
01:22:16.280 --> 01:22:22.300
is, is an in between. So you can set a threshold, and these thresholds should be quite high.
1319
01:22:23.975 --> 01:22:24.475
If,
1320
01:22:25.415 --> 01:22:31.755
your reputation from my point of view is high enough, then you can message me for free, like all of your followers
1321
01:22:32.215 --> 01:22:37.960
and then a bunch of other people like you, you you have a set of this this 40,000
1322
01:22:37.960 --> 01:22:46.540
people that are connected to you some way, they can message you for free. Everyone else has to pay you for your attention, like, pay me. And then you can configure how much.
1323
01:22:47.080 --> 01:22:53.505
Yeah. That makes sense to me. And then you use Bitcoin, so it doesn't require doxing yourself with a credit card or whatever.
1324
01:22:54.385 --> 01:22:59.844
Yeah. And and and your grandma would not have to pay to send you Merry Christmas. Because she's my grandma.
1325
01:23:00.145 --> 01:23:01.525
She's in my room of trust.
1326
01:23:02.225 --> 01:23:06.804
Exactly. So that's for her I if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be alive. I gotta respond to her messages.
1327
01:23:08.170 --> 01:23:12.350
Even though they are yeah. I sometimes get some strange gifts.
1328
01:23:12.810 --> 01:23:21.710
I mean, on the grandma note, I have her she's on signal now. I have a 90 plus year old grandma that uses signal because it's the only way she gets baby baby pictures.
1329
01:23:22.785 --> 01:23:24.005
Yeah. Excuse me. Incentive.
1330
01:23:25.745 --> 01:23:31.205
I see in the live chat, silent dot links up to 42,000 sads. Thank you, sir, for your support.
1331
01:23:31.505 --> 01:23:35.845
He's a true ride or die. He runs a great service. I was talking about burner numbers earlier.
1332
01:23:36.770 --> 01:23:38.630
You can buy a eSIM from him.
1333
01:23:39.170 --> 01:23:43.110
Downloads directly to your phone. Don't have to give up any identifiable information.
1334
01:23:43.410 --> 01:23:44.550
Just pay with Bitcoin.
1335
01:23:45.650 --> 01:23:47.590
I use it all the time. It is amazing,
1336
01:23:47.890 --> 01:23:51.030
amazing service. One of the most useful Bitcoin paid services.
1337
01:23:52.585 --> 01:23:53.965
Pip, this has been great.
1338
01:23:55.625 --> 01:23:56.685
I've been trying
1339
01:23:57.545 --> 01:23:58.045
to,
1340
01:24:01.065 --> 01:24:02.765
ship more dispatches lately.
1341
01:24:03.625 --> 01:24:04.685
I'm trying to
1342
01:24:05.840 --> 01:24:10.099
there's a lot of noise out there, and I'm trying to get the signal out. But, one of the
1343
01:24:10.559 --> 01:24:12.020
strategies I've I've
1344
01:24:13.599 --> 01:24:14.579
come to appreciate
1345
01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:17.360
that one of our my listeners told me to,
1346
01:24:18.400 --> 01:24:19.460
to do is,
1347
01:24:20.455 --> 01:24:22.555
for a lot of people do, like, repeat shows.
1348
01:24:23.015 --> 01:24:31.275
Right? So, like, in six months or so, like, I'd love to have you back on, see where Vertex is, see where WebTrust is, and continue the dialogue. You down for that?
1349
01:24:31.895 --> 01:24:32.395
Absolutely.
1350
01:24:32.695 --> 01:24:34.315
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Awesome.
1351
01:24:35.700 --> 01:24:38.840
Do you have any final thoughts, for the freaks before we wrap?
1352
01:24:39.860 --> 01:24:55.284
Yeah. I just just read a comment from some Franz App mentioning that Sutlantis is is doing some meetups on Nostra or or will do. And, yeah, it's I mentioned it because also, Sutlantis is using Vertex behind the scene Oh, awesome.
1353
01:24:55.905 --> 01:25:04.440
Which I'm now apart from that, obviously, they're actually are they actually doing Noster events? I know at one point they weren't. It was, like, just Noster log
1354
01:25:06.520 --> 01:25:07.020
ins.
1355
01:25:09.480 --> 01:25:11.719
I don't know. I I'm sure they use,
1356
01:25:12.840 --> 01:25:13.980
well, they use
1357
01:25:14.360 --> 01:25:17.180
the events that I send them, meaning the responses.
1358
01:25:18.265 --> 01:25:20.285
Well, other than that, I don't know.
1359
01:25:22.025 --> 01:25:26.925
And they yeah. They they use it in a in a way that I mentioned, like, is removing from the database,
1360
01:25:28.105 --> 01:25:30.125
obvious spammers and bots.
1361
01:25:30.690 --> 01:25:34.310
Fair enough. Anyway, I cut you off. Final thoughts before we wrap.
1362
01:25:37.969 --> 01:25:43.830
Nothing like you can learn more about Vertex on vertexlab.i0
1363
01:25:44.050 --> 01:25:44.550
or
1364
01:25:45.905 --> 01:25:50.005
search on NoStar. And if your client has a good search, then you will find Vertex.
1365
01:25:51.505 --> 01:25:52.005
And,
1366
01:25:53.185 --> 01:26:03.900
no. Thank you. This has been a great conversation, and, it's an honor to be here, honestly, like, after few years listening to the show. Like, it's a bit surreal to be here and speaking.
1367
01:26:05.480 --> 01:26:07.340
So yeah. Thank you, Odell.
1368
01:26:07.800 --> 01:26:12.219
It's a pleasure to have you. It's it was a fun rip. I enjoyed it, and I look forward to the next one.
1369
01:26:13.695 --> 01:26:19.074
You have me you have me on signal. So if I can be helpful in any way, don't hesitate to reach out.
1370
01:26:19.775 --> 01:26:21.635
I'm gonna provide all the links,
1371
01:26:22.494 --> 01:26:24.835
to Vertex. As you said, it's Vertex
1372
01:26:25.739 --> 01:26:26.239
Labs
1373
01:26:26.940 --> 01:26:28.300
vertexlab.io,
1374
01:26:28.300 --> 01:26:29.840
but I'll provide all the links,
1375
01:26:30.539 --> 01:26:33.199
in the show notes, including to Pip's,
1376
01:26:34.300 --> 01:26:36.619
Noster account. Give him a follow. He's a great
1377
01:26:37.420 --> 01:26:39.440
gotta boost his web of trust score.
1378
01:26:40.415 --> 01:26:43.155
This would be embarrassing if he's not ranked very high
1379
01:26:43.535 --> 01:26:47.395
as the creator of the ranking. But he has a great content. He has good
1380
01:26:47.855 --> 01:26:50.515
he has good content and, good discussion there.
1381
01:26:50.895 --> 01:26:55.395
Now if if my rank remains low, it's proof that I am not manipulating the ranks.
1382
01:26:56.190 --> 01:26:59.090
Yeah. So don't follow me. One conspiracy.
1383
01:27:00.350 --> 01:27:02.210
When I was doing my good morning videos,
1384
01:27:02.590 --> 01:27:03.090
which
1385
01:27:03.470 --> 01:27:09.170
were getting a lot of in good morning engagement, I was always on the top of the primal trending.
1386
01:27:09.515 --> 01:27:21.055
And there was a joke internally at primal that I was like, can you just, like, anchor me at number four? Like, don't let me go above four because it's just feeding the conspiracy theories, but we we never did that. We thought it was
1387
01:27:21.595 --> 01:27:22.575
crossing a line.
1388
01:27:24.080 --> 01:27:25.540
What else was I gonna say?
1389
01:27:27.040 --> 01:27:31.700
Yeah. Post all the links in the show notes. Next dispatch is on Monday.
1390
01:27:32.560 --> 01:27:35.620
So just like back to back to back dispatches right now.
1391
01:27:36.185 --> 01:27:37.965
And that's gonna be with Matt Alborg,
1392
01:27:39.225 --> 01:27:42.285
long time Bitcoiner. He now does ppq.ai.
1393
01:27:43.705 --> 01:27:44.685
So a new
1394
01:27:45.705 --> 01:27:53.220
AI focused service that lets you use all the different models, pay with Bitcoin, you pay on a per per usage basis. Really cool service.
1395
01:27:54.160 --> 01:27:58.340
So definitely join us for that. I did I say the time? The time is going to be,
1396
01:27:59.840 --> 01:28:01.380
nineteen thirty UTC.
1397
01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:02.835
If
1398
01:28:03.555 --> 01:28:11.094
if you can use Nasr, you can use UTC. So convert it to your own time zone. You'll figure it out. But all the links to dispatch are at dispatch.com.
1399
01:28:11.715 --> 01:28:15.255
Share the show with your friends and family. It goes a long way. It's very helpful.
1400
01:28:16.320 --> 01:28:18.260
If for some reason you still use YouTube,
1401
01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:24.180
even if you don't watch on YouTube, if you go press the subscribe button on YouTube, maybe it'll get me out of shadow ban hell,
1402
01:28:24.880 --> 01:28:29.700
until we can figure out how getting Nostra streaming to the next level. Anyway,
1403
01:28:30.188 --> 01:28:32.048
I love you all. Pip, thank you for joining.
1404
01:28:32.588 --> 01:28:33.808
Stay on the Styx side.
1405
01:28:34.668 --> 01:28:35.168
Peace.