CD165: PRAVEEN PERERA - COVE WALLET

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 07/02/2025 20:33:46
Duration: 5753.877
Channels: 1

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Everyone's always asking me, hey, Jack. If Trump's official policy

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is America first and telling China get their money out of the country, and everyone goes, well, isn't the stock market then gonna have to go down? And I say, yes, absolutely.

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They say, but Jack, it keeps going up.

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Going up in what?

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Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 10/24/1929,

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the Great Depression. The DGIA

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hits its lowest point on 07/08/1932,

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89%

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below its September 29 peak, defining the most significant bear market in Wall Street's history. The market would not return to its 1929 high until 1954.

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The Great Depression. So the stock market down 89%.

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And people say, but, Jack, the stock market has not been down that much in recent memory. In 1929,

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the dollar is backed by gold.

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So the stock market was down 89%

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in gold terms.

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That's why it was a real depression.

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You see?

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Let me show

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you. From 2000 to 02/2011,

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the stock market was down 89%

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in gold terms.

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So if you measured the stock market in gold,

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you already lived through a great depression, hotshot.

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You just didn't see it.

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We had a great depression in plain sight.

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How?

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Manipulation of the money. What I'm saying is, yes, the stock market is going to get obliterated.

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Obliterated.

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In what?

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Not in dollars.

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Stop looking at things in dollars.

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You're gonna miss these things in broad daylight.

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The whole world has already lived through stock market crashes, just not in dollar terms.

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People say, oh, man. My stock portfolio is up again this year.

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Weird. Why can't I afford rent? That's weird. Why am I getting less groceries? That's weird. Filling up my tank is really expensive, but my stock market went up. Depends what you're measuring in. You understand?

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The S and P 500 against Bitcoin over the last five years,

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Down 81%.

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What about food?

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Food's down 85%

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against Bitcoin in the last five years.

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We lived through a depression and a performance that was greater than the Great Depression, but no one batted an eye

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because they used the wrong measuring stick.

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Happy Bitcoin

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Wednesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Serial Dispatch, the interactive

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live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro

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clip was Jack Mallers,

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cofounder

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no. Founder and CEO of Strike.

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Disclosure, ten thirty one is the largest investor in Strike,

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the largest shareholder outside of Jack himself.

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I have a great show lined up for us today.

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As always,

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sale dispatch

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is purely funded by our audience with Bitcoin donations.

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The two ways you can do that

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is through our Nostril live chat

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or through podcasting two o two point o apps like Fountain Podcasts. All links are at silldispatch.com.

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The largest

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Zap we got on podcasting two point o

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last episode with Alex Gleeson was one of the most interesting guests on CD. Would love to see him join more often. That was Beholder with 5,000 sats.

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Alex is gonna come back on August 15.

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So I've already lined up

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a repeat conversation with him. We're gonna make those

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more often,

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and he's got a lot of big updates that will hopefully

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be ready to go when we have that conversation.

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Anyway, Freaks,

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I have Praveen here. He is,

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the creator and lead maintainer

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of Cove Wallet, a new wallet available

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on iOS with aims to

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go broader and be available on more platforms. How's it going, Praveen?

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Good. Good. Good to be here.

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Thank you for joining. Listener. First time caller.

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Well, it's good to have you. Thanks for,

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I'm I I

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it's the little things. It's the little things, that keep me going. And,

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I saw a comment from you that said,

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I've been listening to dispatch for years, and this was the first episode that I was disappointed in or something along those lines. Or, like, I'm a huge dispatch fan, but this was the first episode I didn't like. And I was like, oh, wow. That's awesome.

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Yeah. That a 165

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episodes,

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if you like most of them,

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that's that's

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it it means a lot. Let me put it that way. Yeah. You're you're just too nice.

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Okay. So, I mean, we can jump into that. But before we do, let's talk about Covell. What is Covell?

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Why should people care? What is the goal?

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Okay. So the goal of Cove Wallet is to be basically the simple Bitcoin only mobile wallet.

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I try to say it's as much about what it doesn't do as what it does do. So it doesn't do it does not and will not ever do lightning or multisig, for example.

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Because there's great apps that already do that, but that's not in our wheelhouse of trying to be really simple.

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Also, the other thing is

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it's on iOS, and we wanted to make it look really nice.

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That might I think that's a high priority, especially for people coming in.

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When you see a nice well designed app, you you trust it. It's, easier to use, more intuitive. So our the bar we set was,

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if Apple designed a wallet, how would it look? So we wanted to make it super native, look

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look like it belongs on iOS.

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But the other thing the other side of it is just because it's simple, we didn't want

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to limit its functionality.

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So we want it to be simple while basically having everything

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an advanced Bitcoiner would need other than, you know, the stuff we don't support like lightning and multisig.

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So it's feature rich. We wanna follow all the standards. We follow bips as much as we can, for labels. You know, we follow that bip, BIP three twenty nine. But big thing is, PSPST support.

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So before before Cove, I was using,

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Green Wallet, which I think is a very nice wallet, but it was basically impossible to use with, hardware wallets.

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Not nice in not in a nice way, at least. So,

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so I wanted to keep the design top notch, but, basically, allow me to use it with the hardware wallets I already use. And,

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so far, we've definitely,

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achieved that, I think,

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mostly because

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Cove is now my daily driver for whenever I, use Bitcoin.

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I I use the computer less. I use my phone more. And,

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yeah. So it's it's been easy to judge because I I am the first customer of Cove. I've been using it a lot more, and I've been really liking it, but definitely stuff I wanna work on still as well.

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So, basically,

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the way I think about it is the goal of Cove,

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is to provide a very easy way for people to securely

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use their hardware wallet of choice

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on a mobile,

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you know, in a mobile in a mobile environment without a desktop computer.

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And

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kind of

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I mean, I'm curious on your opinion here. I've been known to call it the Sparrow wallet of mobile,

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and that's primarily because I absolutely rely on Sparrow wallet, and there's no second best.

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But one of the big complaints that I've seen about Sparrow,

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especially through education, through onboarding people to use it,

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is that it can be a little overwhelming. It can be a little bit,

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power user focused,

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in the beginning. And kind of the cool part with Cove is

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you can start simple. You can start easy. It doesn't really overwhelm you, but you still have the power user features,

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kind of in the background,

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if if you wanna use them as you as you learn more and get more comfortable.

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Yeah. It's a hard line to tow.

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Just wanted to answer audience question. Is it open source? Yes. Fully open source MIT license. It's on GitHub. Everything's

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there.

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And Praveen is, an open SaaS grantee.

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Yes. Mhmm. Thank you to you guys. Without you and BDK, wouldn't have been able to do this. We can get into BDK a bit later.

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Yeah. I understand, like,

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the, like, Sparrow for mobile

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thing, but I don't know if it's the best description just because Sparrow does so much. Right? And,

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Craig works really hard to support, like, everything. And

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that's great, and it's really good for power users, but

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we kind we kinda have different goals. Right? So, like, Veritas, MultiStick, and all that. But we I I really wanna be, like, simple user first, and then,

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the goal was basically

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as the user moves through their Bitcoin journey, learns more, they're able to naturally

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use find these advanced features

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and and and use them. So for example,

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I think coin control is a good example of this.

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When you send even in in Cove, when you try to send Bitcoin,

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just the normal way, there's no coin control because I couldn't think of a way to add that which would still be simple and, like, wouldn't have people

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asking questions. Because something I've noticed is, like

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because before COVID, I, like, helped a lot of people use Bitcoin, I'm sure, which a lot of Bitcoiners probably have. But it's just,

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you lose people when there's, like, something they don't recognize and it's just like, what is this? So even if you think, hey. Like, the person doesn't need to know what this is. If they don't know, don't use it. If they see it and they're like, I don't know what this is,

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they will they might get stuck. They're like, oh, you know, I don't wanna miss make a mistake, which is good. They they don't wanna make a mistake. So if they see something they don't know, they'll

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they'll they'll get stuck. They'll just stop there. So if you go through the normal sign flow, there's no coin control. There we have three dots at the top. That's like our kinda advanced,

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do more features kinda thing, and and it says manage UTXO.

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So the idea is, like, if you don't know what that is, you won't click it, but it's you're not you're not in the middle of a flow, so it's not gonna interrupt you. It's just in the main,

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main screen where you see all your transactions. So if you go through there, you can see all your UTXOs. You can select them,

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and

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and yeah. And and just do a normal concurrent control as you expect.

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Yeah. I guess to get to your,

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for the question is

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I I I I love Sparrows, so it's a compliment to be called the Sparrow of,

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mobile, but we do have different goals in that. I really focus on being simple, simple, simple,

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wallet.

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Yeah. I mean, I think that also makes sense,

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because it's mobile focused

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as well. I I think in general, you we probably see

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the overwhelming majority of people who use Bitcoin

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in five years will be doing it from a mobile app.

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But the overwhelming majority of power users will probably still be doing it on desktop.

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I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I know myself personally,

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I

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I I tend to be more comfortable on desktop,

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for managing savings.

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Yeah. I I agree. But I think me

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I I I right now, I use both because Yeah. So when you get, you know, you get paid in Bitcoin for open SaaS, unfortunately, I need to sell some to live. So that is, like, my daily,

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monthly account. Right? So that, I use with mobile. But, like, if I have a

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a a cold storage, deep storage that never moves, that maybe I'll only use with, desktop.

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Yeah. And that goes to your

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belief that we we don't need to have multisig in Cove. Because if you're gonna do multisig savings, then you learn how to use Sparrow. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

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And I think it's key

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I think it's key so, I mean,

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this was,

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a pretty cool

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case study cove,

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because

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some of some of us at at Open SaaS realized a need.

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We realized a need, which is a a a straightforward, highly secure,

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false mobile app focused on on chain specifically.

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Praveen was already working in the Bitcoin space and was looking for what his next project was gonna be. And it kind of worked incredibly well together in terms of Praveen

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taking taking this project and just

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shipping, shipping, shipping,

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and OpenSats providing funding. And

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then we also had a group,

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that

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has been providing feedback,

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a group of heavy hitters,

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that are not all OpenSats.

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Craig is actually one of them as well,

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that have been providing feedback along the way. But one of the key things,

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one of the key things here that I think you really nailed on

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is not every wallet needs to have Lightning in it.

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We we

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I think one of the reasons why Cove fits as such a good role is because it doesn't have Lightning in it. It doesn't have multisig.

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It's making

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secure single sig on chain great again.

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And there's this weird fascination with people

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that especially in this new era of,

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leveraged Bitcoin equities, you know, the MSTR playbook,

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where people

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do this false dichotomy where it's either you're either doing

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geographically distributed multisig

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or you're you're holding Michael Sailor stock on MSTR.

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But you could actually do very secure single sig in a very straightforward,

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easy to do way,

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that unlocks a ton of freedom benefits that only Bitcoin can provide. And I feel like Cove really fits that role well.

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One of the things that you've been

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very proud of,

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is that you've natively written this app,

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and that's why it's only on iOS right now. You kinda have to build out Android separately. You're not using something,

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like React.

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You wanna go into a little bit why you chose to do that and what kind of benefits users see?

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Yeah. So this is a kind of a case study for me as well as just the way I built it because,

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I haven't seen many people do it exactly this way because,

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right now, basically,

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two ends of the spectrum of building mobile

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apps would be on one end, like React or another framework that's JavaScript or

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dot Flutter, Dart, a different language,

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that is not

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fully native. That's it's not like the the languages that the platform is used to. But the advantages, you can build it once and basically run it in two different places. I've made apps like that.

228
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And the other other end is basically

229
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you do the entire app twice. Right? Once for iOS with Swift or Objective c and then again for Android, using Kotlin or Java, whatever. And then so completely opposite spectrums, the

230
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building it twice would basically take twice as long.

231
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I've taken

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a slightly different approach. So what I'm doing is I'm building the core of the app in Rust.

233
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Rust is widely used in

234
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Bitcoin now. BDK is is written in Rust, so that's it makes it easier to use,

235
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BDK directly in Rust. So I'm doing as much of the logic in Rust as possible, but I still do all of the views. So what you see on the screen, the components, the little widgets, everything basically

236
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that is drawn to the screen is written right now in SwiftUI. So the native,

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the native language.

238
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The reason for that is,

239
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basically, you get you you look at the app and it looks fully native. There's no it looks like

240
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an app that belongs on iOS, and it's gonna be very fast as well. Right? So much faster than using,

241
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JavaScript.

242
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And I know a lot of people don't like JavaScript for the security

243
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security stuff as well. So, you know, avoid a whole class of issues there,

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while saying very fast and basically looking native. But the advantages since most of it is,

245
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written in Rust, what I'm betting on is that when I do make the Android app, it will it won't take twice as long. It'll take,

246
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maybe 20% of the time or 30% of the time. Right? Just to I just I do have to rewrite some stuff because I have to rewrite the the views, what it looks like in in Kotlin, but everything else, the functionality will be the same. There'll be less testing because

247
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the functionality itself is tested. Right? So the small surface area of rewriting and I I'm I'm a whole I'm hoping and I'm thinking that it will,

248
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be a really good trade off.

249
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Obviously, like, not every app needs to be done this way. Like, I think React Native makes sense for a lot of apps, but for a security focus Bitcoin,

250
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app that, like,

251
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like, really trying to nail the UX, I think,

252
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writing the stuff you see, the view code in their native platform makes a lot of sense.

253
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Awesome. And, I mean, just one symptom of that,

254
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is how small the app is.

255
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I,

256
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go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was very proud of that. Because I I mean, I didn't try to make it small or anything. I just that wasn't I I put it up and I noticed it's, what was that? I think it was less than 20 megabytes. Yeah. It was 19 megs. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of, these clock cross platform apps that are written once, they can get huge. Right? 100 megabytes, 200, 300,

257
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which I mean

258
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and in my tweet, I said not a lot of people care about the size of the bundle size. And

259
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I I think it's true. But

260
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but for some, it matters. But, also, like, you know, if you're on a a crappy Internet connection, maybe not in the first world, that stuff matters. Right? It'll be it'll be,

261
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much faster to download,

262
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quick. It it loads up really quick. Right? So,

263
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you might not care about the bundle size, but, like, what that

264
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means, I think everybody will care about.

265
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Snappy. Nice to use. It's a cool flex and a cool metric.

266
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The first off, Mav 21 in the live chat, Zap does 10,000 sets. Thank you, Mav. Damien x RVN x, Zap 21,000

267
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sets. Thank you, sir.

268
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Thank you guys for supporting the show. I see a comment from

269
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be involved,

270
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about a user connecting their own node. This is you know, I I know you don't like the comparison. Another similarity to Sparrow,

271
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in that you default

272
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to public well known Electrum servers.

273
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My app at least defaulted to blockstream.info,

274
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but I see mempool

275
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DIY nodes

276
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in there as well,

277
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and then give users the option in settings

278
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to change to their own node or any other node they want to connect to. How do you think about that? Yeah. So this was an important feature for me because, again, I think of myself as the first, user of Cove.

279
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And,

280
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if I'm using Cove, if I'm using a wallet, I don't want to connect to a public node.

281
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So I,

282
00:20:38.970 --> 00:20:46.185
like, before it launched, that was, like, a must have to be able to connect to your own node. So have that. You're able to connect to your local Umbrel or whatever.

283
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But I also realized that not everybody runs nodes. And

284
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as an app that's trying to be, you know, user friendly,

285
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the the default that makes sense is to connect to a public node. Right?

286
00:21:00.510 --> 00:21:01.250
But if

287
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I I don't wanna have to force people to learn about nodes and running your own nodes and all that just to start using the app. But if you know,

288
00:21:09.274 --> 00:21:22.255
you know you know what a node is and you run your own node, I try to make it easy to find. Right? So it's just in settings, the first like, it's one of the first layers is, like, nodes or node connect, something like that. And, you can easily connect to your nodes. And,

289
00:21:22.690 --> 00:21:50.505
I do wanna make that process of connecting to nodes easier. I don't know why a lot of people don't do this, but, you know, you can you can check to see if, like, there's some well known nodes that a lot of people run, like, Umbrel, start nine, and they're usually on the same place in your network. So we can we can check and add that to a list automatically so you don't have to, type it in. So there's stuff we can make, do to make it easier, but at least having the ability to connect to your own node was a important feature for me. And Cove doesn't support Tor yet. Right?

290
00:21:51.100 --> 00:21:56.399
No. Cove doesn't support Tor. Again, I'm not a big fan of Tor, so that's why I haven't supported it yet.

291
00:21:57.340 --> 00:22:07.044
Mostly because it's slow, and I think it degrades the user experience. But I do recognize that people that people like it and want to use it. So we will Well, the biggest issue is,

292
00:22:08.544 --> 00:22:13.445
for people that are running these home nodes, like, if they're running a start nine, most of them are connecting

293
00:22:14.144 --> 00:22:17.264
through a tour to get back. I know start nine wants to do

294
00:22:18.929 --> 00:22:22.630
it's been in the pipeline for a while, and they wanna have a proxy clear net

295
00:22:23.169 --> 00:22:23.669
service.

296
00:22:24.929 --> 00:22:29.909
But right now, the status quo is people are basically pasting in a Tor electrum string.

297
00:22:30.370 --> 00:22:30.870
Yeah.

298
00:22:31.205 --> 00:22:42.345
Yeah. So, I mean, what I've done with, I had an Umbrel. What I did with Umbrel was run tail tailscale? Yeah. Tailscale. So you can run that on yours and then connect. I find that to be much faster than Tor.

299
00:22:43.429 --> 00:22:48.250
That's another thing I wanna work on. Basically, like a proxy you can run on your own nodes so you can connect

300
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without Tor directly.

301
00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:57.690
Yeah. So as as a general group of features, I think connecting to nodes is like some ideas I have.

302
00:22:58.395 --> 00:23:03.055
I've worked with the guy work working on Kyoto, which is, compact block filters.

303
00:23:04.155 --> 00:23:07.855
So I don't know how familiar everybody is, but, basically, it's a more privacy

304
00:23:08.235 --> 00:23:10.735
preserving way of, getting your transactions

305
00:23:11.035 --> 00:23:12.975
without having to connect to your own node.

306
00:23:13.300 --> 00:23:19.960
So that's definitely like a there's, like, groups of features and stuff that I wanna work on, and that's definitely one of them. Just easier

307
00:23:21.300 --> 00:23:22.360
easier connecting

308
00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:28.440
to more private nodes, I guess. Yeah. I, I mean, look, I love this trade off balance.

309
00:23:30.455 --> 00:23:31.115
I think,

310
00:23:33.015 --> 00:23:36.795
obviously, if you're not using your own node, you're trusting someone else's node,

311
00:23:38.295 --> 00:23:42.120
and you're trusting you're trusting that node with privacy. You're trusting,

312
00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:46.679
them to enforce the rules of the network and also validate your transactions,

313
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actually authenticate your balances.

314
00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:55.960
So it's strictly best to run your own node. It's the only way to interact with the Bitcoin network

315
00:23:56.535 --> 00:23:58.395
in a trust minimized way,

316
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without a third party involved.

317
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But a lot of people won't, especially in the beginning. And if they won't,

318
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then

319
00:24:07.895 --> 00:24:11.600
I I think the best way is rather than Praveen

320
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running a specific code server and being a vertically integrated single point of failure,

321
00:24:17.900 --> 00:24:19.600
it's defaulting to

322
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high uptime,

323
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highly reputable

324
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public servers,

325
00:24:25.095 --> 00:24:26.635
rather than I mean,

326
00:24:27.095 --> 00:24:29.515
this is probably foreign for a lot of people, but,

327
00:24:30.295 --> 00:24:39.675
Electrum, for instance, will just pick a random Electrum server. And there's a lot of public Electrum servers that are believed to be run by chain surveillance companies

328
00:24:40.070 --> 00:24:41.290
and other bad actors.

329
00:24:41.990 --> 00:24:44.250
So you don't wanna give, like, a complete random

330
00:24:45.030 --> 00:24:46.250
public node connection,

331
00:24:46.870 --> 00:24:51.290
but having, like, this curated list of high high uptime, high reputable ones,

332
00:24:52.070 --> 00:24:55.210
seems like a very reasonable trade off balance to me.

333
00:24:55.775 --> 00:24:59.075
Yeah. And I took my list from, Sparrow as well. Yeah.

334
00:25:01.135 --> 00:25:10.470
I I also like in Sparrow, like, he just really scares the shit out of you if you're using one of his curated public node list. I like that you don't scare users,

335
00:25:11.730 --> 00:25:16.790
because I think, you know, they're it is strictly better if they use a their own node,

336
00:25:17.890 --> 00:25:18.390
but

337
00:25:20.370 --> 00:25:26.325
they're not gonna lose funds over it. It's not I it's not something that I wanna really scare users with right in the beginning.

338
00:25:27.184 --> 00:25:32.085
I guess I wanna jump in a little bit deeper. But before we do that, I realized

339
00:25:32.544 --> 00:25:38.210
that we didn't really do the high level. I think the high level would be very useful for people.

340
00:25:38.590 --> 00:25:39.570
Okay. So someone

341
00:25:40.269 --> 00:25:41.970
someone buys a cold card.

342
00:25:42.350 --> 00:25:44.210
They install Cove on their phone.

343
00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:46.529
What's the setup process?

344
00:25:47.549 --> 00:25:49.730
So we do have videos of this, but, basically,

345
00:25:50.665 --> 00:25:53.165
let's assume it's a q one because it's very

346
00:25:54.985 --> 00:25:56.045
QR native,

347
00:25:56.905 --> 00:26:03.085
QR native QR code native. Anyway, if we buy a q one, it's a works really, really well with

348
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:06.540
Cove. Basically, you set it up, set up the PIN.

349
00:26:08.919 --> 00:26:09.419
Actually,

350
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:11.100
small aside, I think,

351
00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:14.299
NVK was talking with someone at

352
00:26:16.375 --> 00:26:18.555
the Bitkey guys and they're like, oh, you can't set up,

353
00:26:20.055 --> 00:26:26.875
a a a cold a cold card in five minutes or whatever. So I think I made a video being like, okay. This is thirty seconds. Right?

354
00:26:28.090 --> 00:26:29.929
So, basically, you set up the pin.

355
00:26:30.649 --> 00:26:34.669
You go through the cold cold cards, say, export wallet or advance,

356
00:26:35.370 --> 00:26:35.870
whatever.

357
00:26:36.250 --> 00:26:38.509
The the place you go to export the xPub.

358
00:26:39.784 --> 00:26:43.565
And they have a bunch of formats. I made it so that you could pick any of the formats.

359
00:26:44.105 --> 00:26:45.644
So whatever they pick, it'll work.

360
00:26:46.184 --> 00:26:48.205
Pick a format, say generic JSON,

361
00:26:49.304 --> 00:26:54.765
and then generate the QR code. And then on Cove, there's a one button for QR codes.

362
00:26:55.350 --> 00:27:01.030
You can just hit the QR button and scan the scan the code, and that's it. Now you have,

363
00:27:01.830 --> 00:27:13.024
you have that the XPub for that in on Cove. And, if you already have transactions on there, you'll see them. You can create the receive addresses and, yeah, start using it. And then high level,

364
00:27:13.345 --> 00:27:16.884
sending, very similar. You on Cove, you start the transaction.

365
00:27:17.904 --> 00:27:19.445
You get to a screen that says,

366
00:27:20.144 --> 00:27:29.380
export signature. It'll show you a QR. You scan that QR with your cold card, and then cold card will give you another QR. You scan that with Cove, and that's it.

367
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.700
Yeah. It's super simple. You've done such a good job with the onboarding flow.

368
00:27:36.015 --> 00:27:51.315
Yeah. You're literally just generating you're just generating the keys, the wallet on on whatever hardware wallet you're using, and then you're scanning the QR code on Cove, and then you manage the wallet on Cove. You approve transactions on the hardware wallet. And because it's PSVT standard,

369
00:27:52.360 --> 00:28:01.100
it works with pretty much the same way with every other QR code based hardware wallet, whether that's a seed signer or a passport or whatever you're using.

370
00:28:03.080 --> 00:28:07.955
Really just really clean straightforward. I think I mean, it it it makes self custody

371
00:28:08.415 --> 00:28:11.315
secure offline cold storage self custody

372
00:28:11.934 --> 00:28:13.315
just so much more accessible.

373
00:28:14.175 --> 00:28:21.055
Yeah. The one caveat right now is, we for the QR codes, we use we support the BB QR standard, which,

374
00:28:21.820 --> 00:28:30.480
Coldcard uses, Crux uses, and I don't I'm not sure. I think a few other people use. But there are some devices that uses slightly more complex standard called UR.

375
00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:34.620
We don't support that yet, so I need to that'll be one of the things,

376
00:28:35.260 --> 00:28:39.185
one of the things we add. But for those, you'd have to use,

377
00:28:39.565 --> 00:28:41.985
like, files, basically. So it's not as smooth,

378
00:28:42.765 --> 00:28:43.245
but any

379
00:28:43.805 --> 00:28:50.545
but if you can get the PSPT on the phone, you can use it, but we need to support the So then you're just copying and pasting the

380
00:28:50.929 --> 00:28:52.230
the text string instead.

381
00:28:52.690 --> 00:29:01.350
Yeah. Basically. Or or, I mean, you can use files as well. So if you like, we connect to iCloud. If you wanna put the PSVT on there, you can, import it. Got it.

382
00:29:01.970 --> 00:29:05.669
Fair enough. And then so you also support NFC. How does that work?

383
00:29:05.995 --> 00:29:06.654
Is that

384
00:29:07.034 --> 00:29:09.294
I haven't tested that out yet. Yeah. NFC.

385
00:29:10.955 --> 00:29:16.815
So I I have Coldcard is what I use, so it's what I tested it most with. But same thing.

386
00:29:18.420 --> 00:29:21.400
Whenever you're, like you can import the wallet using NFC,

387
00:29:21.860 --> 00:29:25.160
instead of QR or and you can sign transactions using NFC.

388
00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:32.520
You know, similar process instead of but instead of using QR codes, you're using NFC and scanning it.

389
00:29:34.135 --> 00:29:37.595
Got it. So it's just a it's you're just tapping.

390
00:29:37.895 --> 00:29:40.475
It's the same process. You're just tapping. Yeah. Exactly.

391
00:29:42.934 --> 00:29:51.909
Awesome. And then, obviously, with Cove, you can also just make infinite hot wallets if you don't wanna use a hardware wallet. And that just uses seeds. You can just write down your seed,

392
00:29:52.210 --> 00:29:55.509
stamp them and steal or whatever. You're good to go. Yeah.

393
00:29:56.210 --> 00:30:14.875
So the idea is someone that, you know, does if if you have your Bitcoin on an exchange, you probably don't have a hardware wallet yet. So really wanted to take the graduated approach of you can move your Bitcoin off exchange into Cove hot wallet. And then once you're ready, buy a hardware wallet and make that whole process seamless.

394
00:30:16.054 --> 00:30:16.554
Awesome.

395
00:30:17.335 --> 00:30:22.770
Okay. So let's talk about you built on BDK. What was that process like? What are your thoughts on that project?

396
00:30:23.150 --> 00:30:27.490
Yeah. So for people not familiar with BDK, it basically handles all the Bitcoin

397
00:30:29.150 --> 00:30:29.650
transaction,

398
00:30:30.190 --> 00:30:34.130
a lot of the, basically, the hard cryptography and all that stuff,

399
00:30:34.795 --> 00:30:38.415
related to actually sending, receiving, dealing with Bitcoin,

400
00:30:39.355 --> 00:30:49.580
just interacting with the Bitcoin network. It's written in Rust, so I was able to very easily use it in mine. But even if you're not building with Rust, they do have bindings for other languages.

401
00:30:50.120 --> 00:30:53.340
It was very nice to use, and this team was super responsive,

402
00:30:55.080 --> 00:31:01.025
took a lot of feedback. Like, I was I was kinda keeping them updated on what it was like using it, and they made some changes,

403
00:31:01.805 --> 00:31:03.585
documentation changes, other changes,

404
00:31:04.525 --> 00:31:14.280
from my feedback. And, yeah, they've just been really great to work with. Without BDK, I I mean, I did this in a it took about a year. I wouldn't have been able to do that. There was, like,

405
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:20.460
way too much stuff to do. Right? I was really because of BDK, I was really able to focus on the UX

406
00:31:21.080 --> 00:31:23.740
and the design of, Cove, and

407
00:31:24.840 --> 00:31:25.240
and they

408
00:31:26.280 --> 00:31:30.335
and, basically, they focused on all the hard stuff, the security stuff,

409
00:31:31.035 --> 00:31:31.935
which is great.

410
00:31:33.035 --> 00:31:33.855
That's awesome.

411
00:31:35.515 --> 00:31:42.175
Okay. So, I mean, I think a lot of listeners are wondering when Android are you gonna put it on desktop too? What are your thoughts?

412
00:31:42.510 --> 00:31:43.010
Yeah.

413
00:31:43.470 --> 00:31:53.810
So my next two, like, immediate things I wanna work on is supporting the York, standard, like I was saying. So more hardware wallets would it'll be easier to use with more hardware wallets.

414
00:31:54.270 --> 00:31:56.770
And the other thing is Android support. So,

415
00:31:58.905 --> 00:32:08.205
this was launched in June. I took a little bit of a break for June and vacation and just, like, you know, worked on it for a while. So June has been kind of bug fixes and

416
00:32:08.745 --> 00:32:09.645
reporting to,

417
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:15.419
responding to support, that kind of stuff. But I I will be applying for OpenStats again.

418
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:19.260
And the first two things those would be the first two things.

419
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:22.679
The Android app, I am

420
00:32:24.395 --> 00:32:25.294
I budgeted

421
00:32:25.995 --> 00:32:27.695
basically three months to it.

422
00:32:27.995 --> 00:32:32.174
That's including testing and stuff, but I'm hoping it can be a little bit faster.

423
00:32:32.715 --> 00:32:37.934
Hoping in, like, one to two months, I'll have a beta ready for people to try out on Android. So

424
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:39.920
keep a lookout for that, and,

425
00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:42.260
you know, feedback is always appreciated.

426
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:44.420
Awesome.

427
00:32:47.600 --> 00:32:53.860
I mean, well so and what do you think that the broader QR code support will be sooner than that?

428
00:32:54.245 --> 00:32:56.665
Yeah. That'll should be, like, a couple weeks maybe.

429
00:32:57.445 --> 00:32:59.205
Okay. Because I it's it's just,

430
00:32:59.685 --> 00:33:00.725
it is a more complex

431
00:33:01.845 --> 00:33:10.039
I think I start I tried to add it at first, and then I worked on it for a couple hours, and it was complex, and I thought I had a lot more other stuff to work on. But,

432
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:15.480
it's yeah. It's just supporting that standard. It shouldn't be too big of an issue.

433
00:33:16.419 --> 00:33:18.039
I mean, that'd be awesome because,

434
00:33:18.475 --> 00:33:21.375
I mean, the ideal situation and, obviously, I was,

435
00:33:22.955 --> 00:33:26.815
I was blind to that because I've used it with a cold card as well. Yeah.

436
00:33:28.634 --> 00:33:32.815
But the the less caveats you have to give when you recommend something to someone.

437
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:36.860
Yeah. The better. Like, if I if I could just be like, install Cove,

438
00:33:37.560 --> 00:33:42.760
use whatever hardware wallet you want. Also, not have to ask them if they're iPhone or Android. Yep. Right? Yep.

439
00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.420
It just it obviously makes everything.

440
00:33:46.265 --> 00:33:56.845
Well, I I mean, there's some hardware wallets that don't support PSBTs. Right? Or, like Well, there's those are just there. Yeah. They should get a better hardware wallet. Yeah. That's true. I mean,

441
00:33:57.304 --> 00:33:58.524
if anybody so,

442
00:33:59.144 --> 00:34:00.345
CoinKite sent me,

443
00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:04.270
their stuff, so I was able to test with it. So foundation,

444
00:34:05.050 --> 00:34:08.430
anybody else using UR standards and that actually use PSPTs,

445
00:34:08.810 --> 00:34:13.185
feel free to send me a hardware wallet so I can test with it. That'll be helpful for me.

446
00:34:13.985 --> 00:34:17.445
And I'll make a video of it working and put it on the Cove Twitter.

447
00:34:18.065 --> 00:34:18.805
Good shout.

448
00:34:20.705 --> 00:34:23.845
What other what other things do you wanna add to this?

449
00:34:25.345 --> 00:34:28.565
We've discussed previously privately paid join,

450
00:34:28.990 --> 00:34:31.410
silent payments. How are you thinking about those things?

451
00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:37.010
Yeah. So one of the buckets I wanna work on is, improved privacy for sure.

452
00:34:37.950 --> 00:34:39.490
So that would include PayJoin.

453
00:34:40.590 --> 00:34:43.010
It'd be great to have more wallets and exchanges

454
00:34:43.555 --> 00:34:44.615
that support PayJoin.

455
00:34:45.875 --> 00:34:49.255
Silent payments, I'm a little iffy on just because you need Taproot.

456
00:34:49.715 --> 00:34:52.375
And I don't support Taproot right now, but,

457
00:34:52.915 --> 00:34:55.895
I don't see why we won't be able to send to silent payment

458
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:06.620
addresses. And then another one would be better, like, multi wallet support. Right now, you you can have multiple wallets, but they're kinda completely separate. Right? We don't have

459
00:35:08.040 --> 00:35:18.395
we don't have a, like, okay. This is how many Bitcoin is in all the wallets, and we don't have an easy way to send from one wall to another. You just have to copy the addresses. I think it'd be cool to just, you know,

460
00:35:19.815 --> 00:35:23.675
on the send screen, be, like, sent to wallet a from wallet b.

461
00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:27.400
That would be nice. I'm just looking at my list of stuff.

462
00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:34.680
I think we can it I think it's pretty beginner friendly, but I think we can make it even better. I think I I wanna make a better onboarding

463
00:35:36.020 --> 00:35:41.434
experience. Right now when you open it, it just basically it's two buttons that says, where is your Bitcoin?

464
00:35:41.895 --> 00:35:44.234
Or, like, where do you wanna store your Bitcoin? On a hardware

465
00:35:44.535 --> 00:35:46.234
wallet or on a,

466
00:35:47.015 --> 00:35:56.790
on your phone? I was talking to someone that has Bitcoin on an exchange, and to him, that was too confusing as well. Right? It was like, I don't know. You tell me where I wanna keep it.

467
00:35:57.410 --> 00:36:00.550
So I think we're gonna have an onboarding flow. So

468
00:36:01.650 --> 00:36:09.375
for the feedback, it's going backwards a bit. It's been really good to have a mix of, like, you and VK, people that are

469
00:36:10.075 --> 00:36:10.655
very technical

470
00:36:11.194 --> 00:36:14.734
and, like, very comfortable, but also people that are really new. So,

471
00:36:17.035 --> 00:36:21.595
and and self described retards like plate. So he he he

472
00:36:22.240 --> 00:36:28.900
he's given me really good feedback. For like, for example, one of the things I I think it was, I had a button that said new wallet,

473
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:38.365
and he didn't like that because he was scared. That means if that if he's pressed it, it would delete the current wallet. So I changed it to add wallet. Right? So feedback like that. Fair.

474
00:36:39.225 --> 00:36:45.965
And the other thing and the other guy has been Adrian, who's my designer. He's very new to Bitcoin. Right? So he has really good questions that, like,

475
00:36:46.425 --> 00:36:51.740
that I'm like that you don't think about because, like, you've been in you've been doing this for a while. It's like Right. It's, like, super basic.

476
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:52.900
So,

477
00:36:53.720 --> 00:36:55.740
yeah. So so this this

478
00:36:57.160 --> 00:37:00.220
the onboarding ideas from that. Basically, it's gonna be like,

479
00:37:00.839 --> 00:37:01.160
how

480
00:37:01.835 --> 00:37:05.375
where are you in your Bitcoin journey? It'll be like, where's your Bitcoin right now?

481
00:37:06.234 --> 00:37:11.295
Exchange, hardware, whatever. So if it's exchange, it'll go through, like, a really super simplified

482
00:37:14.070 --> 00:37:19.210
flow, and it will there will be some education aspects to it. I think that's something we need for,

483
00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:21.370
like, new Bitcoiners

484
00:37:21.670 --> 00:37:31.445
on the app. Just like, what is a hardware wallet? Why would I wanna use a hardware wallet? What is a hot wallet? What are the trade offs? Like, stuff like that. I think we could do a better job.

485
00:37:33.105 --> 00:37:43.780
I I I also just kinda wanna add those, like, little question mark buttons to most of the buttons, like NFC. What if they, You know? Yeah. What is a PSPT? That kind of I think we can make it a lot better for new users.

486
00:37:45.200 --> 00:37:48.020
Because right now, I think the new users we get are people,

487
00:37:50.240 --> 00:38:03.535
referred by people like you or other Bitcoin. Right. Or like that that Me holding someone's hand and adding them to Cove. Exactly. So I I think it's great for that level, like people that already have a preamble of what this is, how to use it.

488
00:38:03.835 --> 00:38:11.740
But there more work needs to be done for someone that just goes to the App Store and searches Bitcoin and finds it. I think I think more work need basically,

489
00:38:12.120 --> 00:38:18.540
the app needs to be the Odell a little bit more. Like, need to hold their hand a bit more for the people that don't have an Odell.

490
00:38:19.640 --> 00:38:30.505
Yeah. I mean and, also, I'm sick of holding people's hands. Like, I just want to tell them to download something. Yeah. And then just let them it should you shouldn't have to watch, you know, a two hour tutorial video,

491
00:38:31.445 --> 00:38:32.825
to securely hold

492
00:38:33.365 --> 00:38:33.865
Bitcoin.

493
00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:41.320
The the the app should be a well designed app should be able to handle that process. And and

494
00:38:41.859 --> 00:38:42.099
it

495
00:38:42.740 --> 00:38:45.560
like, we we should we should be at the point where,

496
00:38:46.260 --> 00:38:46.920
you know,

497
00:38:48.515 --> 00:38:50.215
that that's what we've been missing

498
00:38:50.515 --> 00:38:54.215
in a big way, and there's different ways to accomplish that.

499
00:38:56.435 --> 00:38:59.175
And you have, like, the extreme with something like a Bitkey.

500
00:39:00.710 --> 00:39:04.809
But the trade off is it's like trying to find that trade off balance

501
00:39:05.349 --> 00:39:08.010
and and trying to find the the balance between

502
00:39:10.230 --> 00:39:14.250
and this probably will be the single biggest difficulty for you,

503
00:39:14.565 --> 00:39:16.585
is finding the balance between

504
00:39:17.204 --> 00:39:18.984
providing an easy, non overwhelming

505
00:39:19.925 --> 00:39:21.305
experience for the newbies

506
00:39:22.085 --> 00:39:22.585
versus

507
00:39:23.685 --> 00:39:25.065
just a wallet that

508
00:39:26.244 --> 00:39:27.945
a power user can rely on.

509
00:39:28.890 --> 00:39:36.109
Yeah. I I can already see that creeping in, especially because, obviously, a lot of the feedback I'm getting right now is from,

510
00:39:37.289 --> 00:39:38.589
like, experienced Bitcoiners.

511
00:39:39.369 --> 00:39:40.510
So, I mean, like,

512
00:39:41.225 --> 00:39:44.285
as an example and so, basically, the hard part is gonna be

513
00:39:44.985 --> 00:39:53.805
adding these advanced features without making it complicated for the users. I think I'm gonna need some kind of, like, advanced mode where you need to do something weird

514
00:39:54.180 --> 00:39:55.720
to enable it, and then it'll,

515
00:39:56.420 --> 00:39:59.160
let you do more stuff. I don't want it to be

516
00:39:59.540 --> 00:40:01.300
accessible to people that will,

517
00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:04.200
that where it will confuse them.

518
00:40:05.780 --> 00:40:12.615
I mean, you can just have, like, in the settings menu, like, an advanced toggle or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's what that's what I'm thinking.

519
00:40:13.955 --> 00:40:16.535
I'm curious on your opinion. You say you mentioned,

520
00:40:17.875 --> 00:40:19.975
concerns over solid payments

521
00:40:21.660 --> 00:40:26.160
and Taproot specifically. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper on that on,

522
00:40:26.700 --> 00:40:29.599
like, how you're thinking about that. And just before we do

523
00:40:30.380 --> 00:40:34.480
with the caveat that I actually don't think of this as a power user feature.

524
00:40:35.345 --> 00:40:37.845
I think of this as a new user feature, and that's

525
00:40:38.224 --> 00:40:40.005
partially coming from my

526
00:40:40.865 --> 00:40:43.845
seven years volunteering for HRF training activists.

527
00:40:44.464 --> 00:40:46.325
And so if you're an activist,

528
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:51.060
if you're an activist in Venezuela and you wanna receive Bitcoin donations,

529
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:53.540
in a secure way,

530
00:40:54.640 --> 00:41:05.355
the the best if the the way the way to do it to to make sure you get the most donations possible is literally just paste a reused address. Like, we saw Navalny's foundation was just using a single

531
00:41:05.975 --> 00:41:07.675
reused on chain address

532
00:41:08.055 --> 00:41:08.795
for years,

533
00:41:09.655 --> 00:41:11.835
and Putin wasn't able to take their money.

534
00:41:12.270 --> 00:41:20.450
Now Putin and everyone else were able to see their full transaction history and how much money they had raised. And, eventually, at some point, Putin,

535
00:41:22.110 --> 00:41:27.170
pressured Binance, and Binance handed over all the information of Binance users that donated,

536
00:41:28.155 --> 00:41:31.775
to Navalny, and he was opposition candidate. So a bunch of them

537
00:41:32.235 --> 00:41:32.975
faced persecution,

538
00:41:33.355 --> 00:41:37.375
jail time, and whatnot for sending a $50 donation or a $100 donation.

539
00:41:38.075 --> 00:41:40.735
So that's obviously not ideal. Now their organization

540
00:41:41.980 --> 00:41:43.440
has switched since

541
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:45.840
switched to BTC pay server,

542
00:41:47.980 --> 00:41:50.080
but I don't think that's, like, a scalable,

543
00:41:51.980 --> 00:41:57.200
straight I love the BTC pay project, but it's like running and hosting a BTC pay server

544
00:41:57.615 --> 00:41:59.555
is not really the ideal recommendation

545
00:42:00.095 --> 00:42:04.515
in terms of user friction and user onboarding. Like, the ideal situation to me,

546
00:42:05.295 --> 00:42:13.075
whether that's silent payments or something else, is some like, this has been the holy grail that we just haven't been able to unlock, is being able to just take a

547
00:42:13.490 --> 00:42:13.990
static

548
00:42:14.849 --> 00:42:15.349
string

549
00:42:15.650 --> 00:42:17.190
that's not a reused address,

550
00:42:18.450 --> 00:42:27.430
and just, like, post it to Twitter, post it to Nasr, post it on TikTok, and just receive donations. Do you understand where I'm coming from that? Yeah. No. I understand. And

551
00:42:29.015 --> 00:42:40.075
I definitely think the privacy features like that are important. But, so in the audience, Johnny said we have enough advanced wallet software. We need a wallet for the wife. And I think that's something I wanna keep in mind, and

552
00:42:41.095 --> 00:42:42.875
I I think that applies here.

553
00:42:44.750 --> 00:42:49.410
But your your wife is gonna reuse addresses is what's gonna happen. Yeah. But realistically,

554
00:42:49.710 --> 00:42:56.369
like, of of the let's say, of let's if a 100 people are using, Cove, how many of those people are

555
00:42:57.315 --> 00:43:00.295
accepting donations and in a visceral

556
00:43:00.675 --> 00:43:01.575
environment. Right?

557
00:43:02.035 --> 00:43:11.220
It's not it's not that I'm saying it's not important. It's just I think there's other things that need to be done first. Right? So if I had all the other things to be done

558
00:43:12.180 --> 00:43:17.000
so it it's it's coming and it's important. It's just not the first

559
00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:20.040
number one concern right now.

560
00:43:21.474 --> 00:43:27.335
Yeah. I don't even know if silent payments is the answer to that, to be clear. Yeah. Because it does have trade offs, and

561
00:43:27.714 --> 00:43:29.415
it's hard to implement cleanly.

562
00:43:29.875 --> 00:43:30.615
And the

563
00:43:31.075 --> 00:43:33.954
and the other thing, with the Taproot support is just,

564
00:43:35.020 --> 00:43:37.600
one way I know to make a good

565
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:38.480
UX

566
00:43:39.100 --> 00:43:40.160
app in general

567
00:43:40.620 --> 00:43:43.840
is to be the main customer of it. Right? So if I'm

568
00:43:44.540 --> 00:43:50.160
if I'm an actual user of the app, I don't need to guess what is good, what people need.

569
00:43:50.505 --> 00:43:54.365
There's a lot less guesswork. I know I know what it needs because I need it. Right?

570
00:43:54.744 --> 00:43:59.005
I don't use Taproot right now. I don't think old card supports Taproot. I could be wrong.

571
00:43:59.625 --> 00:44:03.325
I'm not a Taproot user, so it's just harder for me to

572
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:07.819
create a Taproot wallet because

573
00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:15.180
I've I'm fully hardware only. So if I can't use it with my hardware wallet, I'm not sure how I would use it. Right?

574
00:44:16.200 --> 00:44:18.779
Again, it's not a deal breaker. It's just

575
00:44:19.775 --> 00:44:21.455
more work needs to be done. And,

576
00:44:22.335 --> 00:44:22.835
if,

577
00:44:23.375 --> 00:44:26.435
CoinGecko point. Yeah. If CoinGecko guys support,

578
00:44:26.975 --> 00:44:32.190
Taproot, I think I'll be more inclined to add support as well because then I can use it with my reward wallet. Right?

579
00:44:33.470 --> 00:44:35.170
I didn't even consider that.

580
00:44:38.030 --> 00:44:40.349
That's a that's a really good point. I

581
00:44:44.454 --> 00:44:48.395
Yeah. Coldcard only supports Taproot and their edge firmware, not their main firmware.

582
00:44:48.775 --> 00:44:49.994
Yep. Yep.

583
00:44:51.095 --> 00:44:53.275
But, yeah, I do like that you're not asking,

584
00:44:53.815 --> 00:45:03.369
do you want legacy? Do you want wrap Segwit? Do you want native Segwit? You just default to native Segwit. To To the people that are confused, that's the beast the addresses that start with b c one.

585
00:45:05.829 --> 00:45:11.130
And I that makes sense to me. Yeah. The less the less questions we have to ask the user, the better.

586
00:45:11.750 --> 00:45:23.985
But we don't wanna leave people in the dark. So what we do in the background is when you import a wallet that could be either of them, we actually scan, like, a hundred and hundred or 150 addresses for the other two, like,

587
00:45:25.165 --> 00:45:25.665
native

588
00:45:26.125 --> 00:45:29.425
sorry. Legacy addresses and the the three addresses.

589
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.420
And if we find one, then we'll ask the user the question. Right? So

590
00:45:34.720 --> 00:45:36.160
we wanna keep that kind of,

591
00:45:36.720 --> 00:45:37.700
question minimizing

592
00:45:40.080 --> 00:45:41.620
ideas going forward, basically.

593
00:45:42.240 --> 00:45:44.580
So the another thing on

594
00:45:46.155 --> 00:45:48.255
new user versus power user front,

595
00:45:49.355 --> 00:45:50.015
a topic,

596
00:45:52.075 --> 00:45:52.735
I mean,

597
00:45:53.035 --> 00:45:54.815
look. I think this is gonna be

598
00:45:55.435 --> 00:45:57.055
the most rage inducing

599
00:45:57.675 --> 00:46:01.830
bull market that we've ever seen. I think most people are not gonna be happy.

600
00:46:03.250 --> 00:46:08.850
I've already seen the early signs of it. It's like Bitcoin is just fighting. We're, like, we're almost at a 110,000.

601
00:46:08.850 --> 00:46:12.150
We're basically at all time highs, and Bitcoin is just fighting about everything.

602
00:46:13.490 --> 00:46:13.990
And

603
00:46:14.385 --> 00:46:20.005
I I think that trend is gonna continue and accelerate. And not only will bit Bitcoiners be fighting over

604
00:46:20.625 --> 00:46:23.765
fighting with each other about the, quote, unquote, right way to use Bitcoin,

605
00:46:25.025 --> 00:46:30.990
but, obviously, the Bitcoin deniers, the people that hate Bitcoin are gonna be furious as well. So, like, literally, everyone's gonna be angry,

606
00:46:32.569 --> 00:46:36.190
or most people are gonna be angry. But one of the arguments lately has been,

607
00:46:37.289 --> 00:46:39.390
the difficulty of using seed words.

608
00:46:40.329 --> 00:46:43.390
So on that front, obviously, right now, Cove

609
00:46:43.704 --> 00:46:46.045
just uses the straight seed standard.

610
00:46:46.585 --> 00:46:58.605
So you can if you create a hot wallet in Cove and, obviously, this only refers to the hot wallet because if you're using it with with cold storage, it's with the hardware wallet, it's just whatever the hardware wallet uses, which they all are using seeds.

611
00:46:59.240 --> 00:47:01.180
But on the hot wallet front, it uses,

612
00:47:01.640 --> 00:47:03.420
the seed seed word standard.

613
00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:05.819
How do you think about that in terms

614
00:47:06.200 --> 00:47:06.780
of backups

615
00:47:07.240 --> 00:47:08.780
and cloud and whatnot?

616
00:47:09.160 --> 00:47:13.180
Yeah. So, first of all, I think the fighting is good. I think if

617
00:47:13.785 --> 00:47:17.244
it's, it's good for Bitcoin. If we all get too agreeable and,

618
00:47:17.625 --> 00:47:18.285
you know,

619
00:47:18.905 --> 00:47:20.045
agree with everybody,

620
00:47:20.505 --> 00:47:27.270
I don't think that's good. I think the fighting is good. I welcome adversarial feedback as well. You know, tell me why Cove sucks.

621
00:47:27.590 --> 00:47:29.210
I think that that can be

622
00:47:29.590 --> 00:47:36.570
more helpful, if not as helpful, if not more helpful than, like, the the really good nice comments which I've received, which I appreciate.

623
00:47:37.830 --> 00:47:39.850
But, yeah, seed words. I love seed words.

624
00:47:40.185 --> 00:47:43.485
To me, Bitcoin is not Bitcoin without seed words because,

625
00:47:45.065 --> 00:47:50.525
you know, that that's what makes this offer to me. I I'm not saying there aren't trade offs, but,

626
00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:53.580
to me, Bitcoin

627
00:47:54.200 --> 00:47:54.700
represents

628
00:47:55.080 --> 00:47:57.980
a return to an era of personal responsibility.

629
00:47:58.440 --> 00:47:59.740
Right? In gold,

630
00:48:00.040 --> 00:48:01.900
you're personally responsible for

631
00:48:04.244 --> 00:48:04.744
custodying,

632
00:48:05.125 --> 00:48:05.625
protecting

633
00:48:06.244 --> 00:48:20.550
your wealth. Right? And I think there's a lot of things that come downstream of that. Right? So I think that's where Bitcoin fixes this comes from. Right? It's not Bitcoin doesn't magically fix stuff. It fixes things because the way it is. Right?

634
00:48:22.290 --> 00:48:25.109
So you can't have an era of personal responsibility

635
00:48:25.730 --> 00:48:27.030
without personal responsibility.

636
00:48:27.730 --> 00:48:32.005
Right? So if you want Bitcoin, if you want the world Bitcoin brings,

637
00:48:32.465 --> 00:48:42.565
unfortunately, that means you're going to need to do some things different. You can't just you can't just go give it to a bank and, hey, you deal with it for me. That's not how it's gonna work. Right?

638
00:48:43.105 --> 00:48:44.885
So I I'm I'm in Bitcoin

639
00:48:46.250 --> 00:48:48.990
as for the for the new world, it's gonna bring

640
00:48:49.290 --> 00:48:52.990
as much as it is to get rich. You know? Don't get me wrong. I love,

641
00:48:53.369 --> 00:49:01.710
number go up, but I really do I am a firm believer in Bitcoin fixes this. And I think a large part of why it fixes this is because,

642
00:49:02.645 --> 00:49:05.945
of the personal responsibility that it takes to

643
00:49:06.565 --> 00:49:10.345
keep your wealth. So, yeah, I love seed words. To me, Bitcoin is seed words.

644
00:49:12.405 --> 00:49:14.345
But I do believe that we could do things

645
00:49:14.965 --> 00:49:15.205
to

646
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:25.339
I don't think people need to learn everything all at once. Right? So if someone's on a hot wallet, they are at the beginning of their journey. They have more to go.

647
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:27.020
I think we should make

648
00:49:27.560 --> 00:49:32.795
c words easier to use, more secure. I love vault volts because of this. So, you know,

649
00:49:34.055 --> 00:49:36.235
I I think that would be a good soft fork,

650
00:49:36.695 --> 00:49:38.875
to have all You're not gonna get it. Yeah.

651
00:49:39.575 --> 00:49:43.950
I I don't know. I don't know. I'm not in too much fighting about this, but I think it'd be great,

652
00:49:44.589 --> 00:49:46.670
because that lets you seed words but whilst,

653
00:49:46.990 --> 00:49:48.930
being safer. Right? To me, that's a better

654
00:49:49.790 --> 00:49:51.170
trade off. That's a better

655
00:49:51.790 --> 00:49:54.849
yeah. That's just that's just better than, like, getting rid of seed words.

656
00:49:55.550 --> 00:50:01.495
So with all that being said, I think some of the things I wanna bring to the Hot Wallet side is definitely a cloud backup.

657
00:50:01.895 --> 00:50:03.355
I was looking at the Phoenix,

658
00:50:04.055 --> 00:50:05.835
wallet, and the way they do it is great.

659
00:50:06.935 --> 00:50:10.935
Yeah. I like how Phoenix does it. Yeah. I I do think I wanna add

660
00:50:11.950 --> 00:50:16.690
because right now, basically, the their hot wallet, back cloud backup backs up to iCloud.

661
00:50:17.070 --> 00:50:20.210
So they have noticed about, basically, the NSA and Apple

662
00:50:21.790 --> 00:50:23.570
collaborate. You know, they can steal your money,

663
00:50:24.935 --> 00:50:32.555
which is true, which is probably not a concern for someone already on a hot wallet. So I think it's a great trade off. I'm gonna make the same trade off. But I think I also wanna make,

664
00:50:34.375 --> 00:50:38.075
still make it a little bit more secure for the people that want it so you can add a PIN.

665
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:42.780
Yeah. PIN or password or something like that. I think

666
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:45.580
the way I think about security with

667
00:50:46.040 --> 00:50:46.540
offline

668
00:50:48.040 --> 00:50:50.300
and passwords and stuff like that is

669
00:50:52.065 --> 00:50:57.445
I think people are very against, like, password managers or, like, saving your seed word in,

670
00:50:58.305 --> 00:51:04.565
in a password manager, which I think makes a lot of sense. But I think you can combine it. Right? So save,

671
00:51:05.670 --> 00:51:07.690
have an encrypted backup in the cloud,

672
00:51:08.070 --> 00:51:14.490
but have the password to that backup in one password. Right? So now it's in two different places, two different companies,

673
00:51:15.109 --> 00:51:17.609
one password, whatever. If you believe then, they should,

674
00:51:18.035 --> 00:51:21.495
everything should be intent encrypted. It shouldn't be hackable. Right?

675
00:51:21.795 --> 00:51:22.935
But basically,

676
00:51:23.315 --> 00:51:27.575
to rug you, it would be a lot of work. Right? Just in case it is hackable,

677
00:51:27.955 --> 00:51:34.910
you they would they would need them to collude and you would have to you have to have access to both the Google Drive account, the iCloud account,

678
00:51:35.690 --> 00:51:40.730
or the whatever wherever your password manager is. Yeah. Exactly. Two different things. I I think,

679
00:51:41.130 --> 00:51:56.315
I think that's a great trade off. So so, yeah, I want I wanna do the Phoenix Way where, basically, you don't need anything as as when you download the app, on a new phone, it'll already be there because, iCloud, like, key chain password is already synced between devices. But I also want the step up, basically,

680
00:51:57.309 --> 00:52:01.250
encrypted backup and then here's your PIN or pick a PIN or password,

681
00:52:01.790 --> 00:52:02.690
save that somewhere.

682
00:52:03.950 --> 00:52:17.135
That does add complexity because then you need to let them know, hey. Like, without this PIN, without this password You're gonna lose your money. Yeah. So maybe I'll do something like, signal where they ask for your PIN every now and then. So like, to make sure you still have it.

683
00:52:17.515 --> 00:52:23.215
Like that. Yeah. So I and then I could verify that that PIN works without

684
00:52:23.740 --> 00:52:25.200
decrypting it. So

685
00:52:25.740 --> 00:52:26.140
right. So you

686
00:52:26.860 --> 00:52:28.380
there's lots of stuff you could do.

687
00:52:29.420 --> 00:52:33.760
It's it's gonna be hard to find that balance, man, of, like, advanced versus easy.

688
00:52:34.220 --> 00:52:38.240
But, and the another thing I wanna do is, social recovery.

689
00:52:39.145 --> 00:52:53.565
I don't that might be a little later because I think it'll be more involved. You gotta figure out how to talk to people, which like, how do you do you do everything through Cove? Is there, like, a do you, you know, go through signal or whatever? But I think it would be another nice to have kind of feature.

690
00:52:54.560 --> 00:52:57.940
Yeah. Social recovery, you know, two or three, three or five, something like that.

691
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:02.420
Yeah. I mean, for social recovery, you could

692
00:53:03.359 --> 00:53:10.835
effectively keep a secret in the user's cloud account and then just have them, like, delegate one user that has another secret.

693
00:53:11.455 --> 00:53:14.275
I mean, I I would that would be, like, the most simple

694
00:53:15.215 --> 00:53:20.035
implementation of social recovery. And the use case I would think of is, like, I onboard my mom,

695
00:53:20.990 --> 00:53:22.130
and I'm her recovery,

696
00:53:22.990 --> 00:53:24.450
but I can't take her money.

697
00:53:25.069 --> 00:53:41.234
Yeah. So she would need yes. Yeah. So that would be a use case for the password. Basically, you give the password to someone, but you I have the password. Yeah. Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have the password. She has the encrypted backup in her iCloud and boom. Done. Yeah. I mean, I will say that

698
00:53:41.695 --> 00:53:43.955
I come from a time before seed words,

699
00:53:44.974 --> 00:53:48.150
and kids these days don't understand how easy they have it.

700
00:53:48.789 --> 00:53:49.930
Seeds are amazing.

701
00:53:50.549 --> 00:53:54.250
I mean, the number the number one thing you wanna be able to do with a backup

702
00:53:54.710 --> 00:53:58.970
is, first of all, be able to load it into another wallet just in case your wallet provider

703
00:53:59.270 --> 00:53:59.930
is unavailable,

704
00:54:01.065 --> 00:54:02.445
you know, whether that project

705
00:54:02.825 --> 00:54:03.645
becomes obsolete

706
00:54:04.265 --> 00:54:11.645
or you can't their servers go down, you can't access the app or whatever. You wanna be able to load it into another wallet. So seeds are beautiful that they're interoperable.

707
00:54:11.945 --> 00:54:17.320
And second of all, the single best security advice you can give to someone is to keep backups offline

708
00:54:17.860 --> 00:54:34.145
and never put it on the Internet. And why do we do that? That why do we keep backups offline? Why do we keep keys offline? It's because you threat modeling wise, you take out a whole set of threat actors. Actors. Anyone who would remotely try and compromise you and hack you through the Internet can't do that because

709
00:54:35.405 --> 00:54:41.185
the the secret is offline, and they have to actually come into your house or come into your office or whatever to get that secret.

710
00:54:42.045 --> 00:54:43.505
And seed words are obviously

711
00:54:44.020 --> 00:54:44.520
words,

712
00:54:45.060 --> 00:54:47.880
so you can write those down. Like, trying to write out

713
00:54:48.260 --> 00:54:50.840
bare private keys is fucking insane.

714
00:54:51.780 --> 00:55:01.835
When I first started, I would print out my private keys and then destroy the printer, which is ridiculous. Like, the users aren't gonna do that. So seed words are great for that reason,

715
00:55:02.295 --> 00:55:02.795
but

716
00:55:03.095 --> 00:55:07.674
it is a paradigm shift for people that are not used to taking personal responsibility.

717
00:55:08.375 --> 00:55:10.234
And most people I have noticed,

718
00:55:11.470 --> 00:55:13.010
or a lot of people I've noticed,

719
00:55:13.310 --> 00:55:16.130
they're used to just, like, they lose their iPhone in

720
00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:17.650
a airport or something,

721
00:55:18.110 --> 00:55:25.970
and they do the iCloud recovery on their new iPhone, and most of their apps are there. And one of the two big things that they forget

722
00:55:26.535 --> 00:55:27.035
is

723
00:55:27.335 --> 00:55:29.275
a lot of times, there's a two factor apps

724
00:55:29.655 --> 00:55:40.234
because it's, like, a similar threat model. And then the second thing is the Bitcoin model. It's been three years or whatever, and they just assume the Bitcoin model is gonna be back there, which is why I think what Phoenix did

725
00:55:41.769 --> 00:55:45.710
is is quite clever, and their disclosures are really important because that

726
00:55:46.410 --> 00:55:49.150
basically I mean, look. For most people, Apple

727
00:55:50.650 --> 00:55:57.405
Apple and the US government aren't in their threat model. I think they're not actually concerned about those two parties stealing their money.

728
00:55:58.985 --> 00:56:05.485
But Phoenix has a little bit more leeway, I think, because it's more geared as, like, a spending wallet. It's more of

729
00:56:06.700 --> 00:56:17.120
the cash you keep in your back pocket. And so, like, if you have, like, a thousand dollars in it and the NSA or Apple wanna steal your money, it's like, okay. They stole your money. Like, I

730
00:56:17.420 --> 00:56:21.280
I it's it's not it's not as big issue as if it's your life savings.

731
00:56:23.385 --> 00:56:24.585
Yeah. Yeah. And,

732
00:56:24.985 --> 00:56:27.645
similarly, I think in Cove, if you're

733
00:56:28.825 --> 00:56:29.885
on a hot wallet,

734
00:56:30.985 --> 00:56:33.805
you maybe we should add more more,

735
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:41.300
like, wording around that. But, like, you know, if if you if you're keeping a real amount of money, you really should just get a hardware wallet.

736
00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:42.340
So

737
00:56:42.640 --> 00:56:43.360
I think that,

738
00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:46.020
the The hard part is it's hard to

739
00:56:47.295 --> 00:56:49.875
quantify what that is for the end user

740
00:56:50.655 --> 00:56:54.915
because there's no one size fits all. Like, I've heard people say, like,

741
00:56:58.990 --> 00:57:04.210
oh, like, you know, you need multisig if you're storing more than 250,000,

742
00:57:04.830 --> 00:57:06.610
and, like, you're better off in MSTR.

743
00:57:06.910 --> 00:57:09.170
Like, someone literally said that to me on Nasr.

744
00:57:09.550 --> 00:57:12.510
If you're not multi if you have over $250,000

745
00:57:12.510 --> 00:57:14.714
and you're not using multisig, sig, you're better off in MSTR.

746
00:57:15.655 --> 00:57:19.335
And I, quite frankly, would rather have $250,000

747
00:57:19.335 --> 00:57:23.835
in my Hot Wallet on Cove than in MSTR. Like, I think the trust model is better.

748
00:57:24.855 --> 00:57:30.460
But it just depend it depends on the user and what their threat model is, and that makes all of this way more

749
00:57:31.560 --> 00:57:41.020
if you if you wanna be honest about the trade offs, it makes that education onboarding experience. And there's there's no such thing as one size fits all advice. I think the the key is that,

750
00:57:42.355 --> 00:57:43.975
we're honest about the trade offs.

751
00:57:44.355 --> 00:57:46.375
We make that clear to users

752
00:57:46.755 --> 00:57:49.815
and let them choose what works best for them.

753
00:57:50.995 --> 00:57:52.515
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And,

754
00:57:53.870 --> 00:57:55.810
yeah. Multi yeah. Multi stick is funny.

755
00:57:56.510 --> 00:57:58.610
I mean, it it's it's it's great, but

756
00:58:00.110 --> 00:58:09.595
not nothing is bulletproof. Right? In an era of personal responsibility, the only thing that will protect you is gonna be yourself. So figure out how to defend you, your home, and your family because

757
00:58:09.975 --> 00:58:15.735
people I think some people assume that, like, you know, you get broken into and because multistig is is great,

758
00:58:16.455 --> 00:58:23.340
at, like, physical attacks. Right? But they assume that someone's gonna break in and, like, they're like, oh, sorry. I got this amazing multisig setup. Like,

759
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:33.740
you can't get it. What what they're just gonna leave? They're just gonna leave you alone? You know? They might not get your Bitcoin, but they might also not leave you alive. So Yeah. Really, like, Bitcoiners should really,

760
00:58:34.944 --> 00:58:36.165
you know, get used

761
00:58:36.785 --> 00:58:39.905
to getting good at defending themselves and their home and their property because

762
00:58:41.265 --> 00:58:50.790
Yeah. I mean, I think that is obviously a key part. Like, don't be a soft target. But I also like, it just depends who you are as a user. Right? Like, if you're if you're a public Bitcoiner,

763
00:58:51.809 --> 00:59:01.910
then, yes, like, you probably should be using geographically distributed multisig. You should probably not be able if you have a gun to your head, you should probably not be able to move those funds. If you're running an organization,

764
00:59:02.605 --> 00:59:04.785
then the CEO shouldn't be able to rug everybody.

765
00:59:05.165 --> 00:59:07.585
Like, that should be in multisig. Like, it'd be

766
00:59:07.885 --> 00:59:14.705
absolutely insane if OpenSats treasury was in single sig, and it'd be even more insane if it was in single sig hot

767
00:59:15.130 --> 00:59:17.230
hot wallet. Right? Like, that should be multisig,

768
00:59:17.770 --> 00:59:22.670
and it should be cold, and it should be distributed among people. So there's no single point of failure.

769
00:59:23.609 --> 00:59:25.230
Absolutely. But it is interesting.

770
00:59:25.930 --> 00:59:29.255
I I think for the overwhelming majority of people, single

771
00:59:30.355 --> 00:59:34.295
sig cold storage is is more than enough, particularly

772
00:59:34.674 --> 00:59:35.174
if

773
00:59:35.474 --> 00:59:37.255
very few people know you're a Bitcoiner.

774
00:59:37.634 --> 00:59:40.055
And I I do think we're entering the era

775
00:59:40.515 --> 00:59:43.335
that people like, everyone has something to sell you.

776
00:59:44.890 --> 00:59:45.710
So they

777
00:59:46.410 --> 00:59:50.030
so, like, the rent attacks, for instance, have, I think, been overstated

778
00:59:51.210 --> 00:59:52.910
because we're entering an era

779
00:59:54.170 --> 00:59:55.790
that because Bitcoin exists,

780
00:59:56.490 --> 01:00:00.975
it's not just Bitcoiners that will be targeted more. I I think all rich people

781
01:00:01.435 --> 01:00:03.455
will be expected to pay Bitcoin ransoms.

782
01:00:03.915 --> 01:00:06.494
Like, that's not, there's a reason why

783
01:00:07.035 --> 01:00:07.535
billionaires

784
01:00:07.835 --> 01:00:09.435
pay $510,000,000

785
01:00:09.435 --> 01:00:11.535
a year for security teams,

786
01:00:12.155 --> 01:00:14.575
and it's not because they're necessarily Bitcoiners.

787
01:00:15.099 --> 01:00:24.960
It's because they're high value targets, and as a result, they need to account for that in their threat model. And so there's nuance to all these things. Yeah. These are the trade offs you get when you move into

788
01:00:25.500 --> 01:00:30.875
an era where you can actually custody your wealth, I think. Like Exactly. That that's just,

789
01:00:32.075 --> 01:00:38.015
yeah. Yeah. And I don't love the collaborative custody model for privacy and other reasons for sure.

790
01:00:39.355 --> 01:00:40.395
Why don't you love the

791
01:00:41.195 --> 01:00:46.240
because it just for the privacy reasons because they know your amounts? Yeah. Yeah. I don't love that.

792
01:00:47.279 --> 01:00:50.160
But, I mean, I understand why people use it. I'm not gonna go too hard on that. But,

793
01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:57.859
I don't know. The I think the FrostSnap guys just released their hard wall rear wallet. I don't know if you saw that. Yeah. I have it.

794
01:01:02.395 --> 01:01:04.015
Do I have it right here?

795
01:01:04.795 --> 01:01:10.415
I just had it in my hand, but I have a testing unit. Yeah. Pretty bullish on frost. I like that stuff.

796
01:01:11.115 --> 01:01:14.540
I think, you know, it works around a lot of the multi

797
01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:16.700
sig pain points, I think.

798
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:19.020
Excited to see where that goes.

799
01:01:25.885 --> 01:01:30.145
I I have, like, just a desk full of testing devices

800
01:01:30.525 --> 01:01:31.585
over here. But,

801
01:01:32.125 --> 01:01:35.025
yeah, the the cool thing about the FrostSnap is, like,

802
01:01:35.405 --> 01:01:36.705
it's like human centipede.

803
01:01:37.005 --> 01:01:39.985
Yeah. It's just it's just you connect them butt to butt,

804
01:01:41.180 --> 01:01:43.760
with the USB C to set up the multisig.

805
01:01:44.779 --> 01:01:48.960
I mean, I think collaborative custody is is, first of all, great for institutions,

806
01:01:49.420 --> 01:01:50.240
like organizations.

807
01:01:52.140 --> 01:01:55.279
And I think of it more as, like, a stepping stone for,

808
01:01:58.895 --> 01:01:59.395
like,

809
01:01:59.695 --> 01:02:07.710
full full blown personal responsibility self custody. Like, people I think it's the single most important thing with the collaborative custody stuff

810
01:02:08.270 --> 01:02:10.450
is the handhold. Like, whether you're using

811
01:02:10.990 --> 01:02:12.210
Unchained, AnchorWatch,

812
01:02:12.510 --> 01:02:13.010
Casa,

813
01:02:13.470 --> 01:02:15.810
it's like you have a customer support person

814
01:02:16.589 --> 01:02:18.930
that is explaining to you what seeds are,

815
01:02:19.390 --> 01:02:22.369
helping you set up the hardware wallets, getting you comfortable,

816
01:02:23.575 --> 01:02:26.955
and helping you in inheritance and disaster recovery.

817
01:02:27.495 --> 01:02:27.995
Yeah.

818
01:02:28.695 --> 01:02:30.235
And people just like the handhold.

819
01:02:30.615 --> 01:02:33.755
Yeah. But but, obviously, it comes with a with a privacy

820
01:02:34.055 --> 01:02:34.555
concern.

821
01:02:35.270 --> 01:02:44.410
And I think, BTC sessions and them, they had a new company that's basically hand hold as a service. Right? I think it's called Bitcoin Mentor. I think they Yeah. They do that.

822
01:02:45.190 --> 01:02:50.569
You yeah. You know, if if the free hand holding gets too much for you, just send them there.

823
01:02:51.435 --> 01:02:52.075
Fair enough.

824
01:02:53.115 --> 01:02:55.195
Yeah. But I I think what I was gonna say is,

825
01:02:55.755 --> 01:03:01.455
yeah, I'm I'm definitely I love I'm definitely okay with any of these, like, step stepping stone type of services

826
01:03:01.915 --> 01:03:02.415
that

827
01:03:03.090 --> 01:03:13.910
get you to a better place. But what the that's why I don't like the BitKeeper, though, because I don't think that's a stepping stone. I think if it was marketed as such, hey. Like, this is your first Bitcoin wallet,

828
01:03:14.370 --> 01:03:22.615
and then later when you figure out what everything means, you can get to a better place. I think if they marketed like that, it would be better. But

829
01:03:24.115 --> 01:03:29.495
as it is right now, that's not how they talk about it. This is your first final and only Bitcoin wallet,

830
01:03:29.795 --> 01:03:31.080
and I don't love that.

831
01:03:31.720 --> 01:03:37.100
Fair enough. I mean, I think the messaging could be better. But let's go through the same thought experiment I used earlier.

832
01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:41.500
Regular individual

833
01:03:41.800 --> 01:03:43.800
wants to invest $200,000

834
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:44.540
into Bitcoin.

835
01:03:46.185 --> 01:03:49.245
Are they better off in MSTR, or are they better off with the big key?

836
01:03:49.545 --> 01:03:52.905
Yeah. Definitely big key. So, I mean yeah. That makes sense. And I think what,

837
01:03:53.705 --> 01:03:55.065
last time I was talking with,

838
01:03:56.105 --> 01:04:01.400
Ben, and I think he was just basically saying that nobody wants to buy a hardware wallet

839
01:04:01.700 --> 01:04:06.440
knowing that they'll have to buy another one in the future. So I I guess that explains the messaging.

840
01:04:07.300 --> 01:04:15.835
But and but, I mean, you don't have to shit all overseas. You know? Like, just I know. The seedless stuff is Yeah. Seedless is safer is just

841
01:04:17.015 --> 01:04:19.675
a just a just a really bad messaging.

842
01:04:20.055 --> 01:04:27.690
Yeah. Focus on using because I don't I mean, I don't think seedless is safer, but it depends on your it depends on your technical competence and threat model.

843
01:04:28.150 --> 01:04:29.690
For some people, it might be.

844
01:04:31.349 --> 01:04:35.670
Yeah. I've had I've had friends that call me in a panic because they wrote down their seeds wrong or

845
01:04:37.185 --> 01:04:42.565
Yep. Or they've lost them, and their ledger is, like, one pin away from wiping itself,

846
01:04:43.025 --> 01:04:44.485
and they're, like, freaking out.

847
01:04:46.945 --> 01:04:51.845
Okay. Well, this all sounds awesome. I mean, like, I'm really excited. I see a comment on the YouTube

848
01:04:52.225 --> 01:04:52.725
chat.

849
01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:58.059
By the way, Freaks, I've been, like, shitting all over YouTube

850
01:04:58.359 --> 01:04:59.500
for years now,

851
01:05:01.720 --> 01:05:02.220
and

852
01:05:03.319 --> 01:05:06.059
I also include nostrilinks in the show notes on YouTube.

853
01:05:06.915 --> 01:05:08.695
And I used to include copyrighted

854
01:05:09.715 --> 01:05:11.255
music in dispatches.

855
01:05:11.795 --> 01:05:16.455
So as a result, I'm pretty sure I'm heavily heavily shadowbanned on YouTube.

856
01:05:17.395 --> 01:05:25.430
But I'm just gonna keep streaming there because I know a lot of people like using it on their TV or whatever. The app ecosystem for YouTube is just bar none great.

857
01:05:25.890 --> 01:05:27.829
But if you do still use YouTube,

858
01:05:28.290 --> 01:05:38.055
if you're one of the billions of people that still use YouTube and you're not subscribed to the CIL dispatch channel, if you could go and click subscribe there, maybe get me out of purgatory,

859
01:05:39.315 --> 01:05:42.615
that would that would be appreciated. But someone in the YouTube chat, AquaLife,

860
01:05:43.395 --> 01:05:51.210
asked when will you support more than cold card? And Praveen answered this earlier. He thinks in the next couple of weeks, he's gonna open up the QR

861
01:05:51.750 --> 01:05:52.730
code capability.

862
01:05:53.349 --> 01:05:55.690
And right now, he's he's just

863
01:05:55.990 --> 01:05:59.050
supporting what is it? BB QR, which is I get

864
01:05:59.915 --> 01:06:04.974
which is cold card crux. And did you say someone else supports I'm not I'm not sure who else.

865
01:06:05.275 --> 01:06:09.535
I I mean, it's the standard. I know those two for sure. And, the crux guys also tested,

866
01:06:10.315 --> 01:06:13.349
COVID with their stuff, so I know it works. I mean, technically,

867
01:06:13.890 --> 01:06:14.950
like Seed Signer,

868
01:06:15.410 --> 01:06:15.910
Foundation,

869
01:06:16.609 --> 01:06:18.550
Jade, whatever, they can all work.

870
01:06:19.170 --> 01:06:30.875
You just have to use files. So it's it can work. It's just not Or NFC. Great. Or NFC. Yeah. If But I don't think those support NFC. Yeah. But But, again, if any of them wanna send me the hardware devices so I can test,

871
01:06:32.214 --> 01:06:33.015
I will and,

872
01:06:33.494 --> 01:06:36.795
make a video, and then I'll know for sure if it works or not.

873
01:06:37.095 --> 01:06:37.655
Yeah. I,

874
01:06:38.600 --> 01:06:39.340
and just

875
01:06:39.720 --> 01:06:40.940
out there, like, BBQR

876
01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:42.300
is,

877
01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:46.940
an open an open spec. It's open source,

878
01:06:47.720 --> 01:06:52.940
and anyone can implement it. And the advantages of it is that it's a much more compact

879
01:06:53.875 --> 01:06:54.855
QR spec,

880
01:06:55.315 --> 01:07:01.655
so it's easier to scan. Right? Yeah. It's much more compact, easier to scan. But also on the developer side, it's so easy to support.

881
01:07:02.675 --> 01:07:09.890
I I did it in, like, couple hours. It's easy. I start tried doing the UR, standard and then it was just confusing.

882
01:07:10.910 --> 01:07:26.255
I worked on a few few hours. There's, like, deprecated ones. There's, like, I I think a lot of them are in UR two point o and I was, I guess, trying to do one point o. It was a mess. I I don't like it. I wish everybody just used b b q r, but I guess that's not the reality. So I have to support the other ones as well.

883
01:07:26.715 --> 01:07:27.215
Awesome.

884
01:07:29.195 --> 01:07:32.095
Okay. Well, I'm really excited about Cove. Thank you for building it.

885
01:07:33.355 --> 01:07:33.515
The

886
01:07:34.530 --> 01:07:37.490
I'm kinda curious. So, I mean, this is a weird

887
01:07:38.850 --> 01:07:42.470
I don't know how long you've been a Bitcoiner, but this is a bit of a weird cycle.

888
01:07:44.610 --> 01:07:48.470
We're we're in a a weird timeline. I think we're in the best timeline

889
01:07:49.595 --> 01:07:52.734
for Bitcoin, but it's a weird timeline. How are you thinking about

890
01:07:53.595 --> 01:07:57.214
the overall industry where we're at right now? How do you think about it as a Bitcoiner?

891
01:07:58.474 --> 01:08:07.540
Yeah. Hold on. Before we get to that, I wanna run can I run some ideas by you for Cove? Get some live feedback? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. So we were talking about,

892
01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:10.420
connecting to

893
01:08:10.720 --> 01:08:11.220
wallets.

894
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:12.880
What do you think

895
01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:17.825
sorry. Connecting to nodes. What do you think about the idea of, have for

896
01:08:18.685 --> 01:08:24.065
people running their own nodes have, like, a helper thing that they can run on their node in a box or on their computer,

897
01:08:24.844 --> 01:08:32.864
where you can and then Cove could connect directly to that, and then you can access it from anywhere. Like a Cove companion app on start nine?

898
01:08:33.460 --> 01:08:38.120
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. Alright. Ack. Okay. Ack.

899
01:08:38.660 --> 01:08:48.280
The other one is I'm not sure why most people more this hasn't been done. One of the things I always I was testing Cove with the, like, low entropy wallet just like because there's

900
01:08:49.025 --> 01:08:53.744
there's transactions that I can look at and stuff. So abandoned, abandoned, abandoned, like, 24 times.

901
01:08:54.065 --> 01:09:02.005
While I was testing that, I know so there's a bunch of, like, transactions that people have swiped. Right? So I noticed, like, 2,000,000 sat transaction coming through.

902
01:09:03.040 --> 01:09:05.620
I'm thinking of a feature called bad entropy detector.

903
01:09:06.080 --> 01:09:13.219
Basically, you make a, a database of, like, just you can make it as big as you want, but you can start with, like, you know, the thousand

904
01:09:14.080 --> 01:09:14.980
most lowest

905
01:09:15.435 --> 01:09:19.775
entropy wallets that are known. Right? So you can start with

906
01:09:20.315 --> 01:09:25.454
and, like, I know a lot of people have or some people have lost money with the doing

907
01:09:25.915 --> 01:09:31.110
the the dice rolls on cold card wrong, like, only doing a few I think they they made it harder.

908
01:09:31.490 --> 01:09:36.710
But, basically, you make a little database, and if you try to import one of those, like, known wallets, you

909
01:09:37.410 --> 01:09:43.270
either say no altogether or, like, big warning saying, like, if you put any money in here, it will be taken.

910
01:09:44.455 --> 01:09:49.275
Yeah. I mean, I think if it's if it's relatively low lift, like, that would be great to have.

911
01:09:50.215 --> 01:09:56.235
Okay. Cool. And the reason I say relatively low lift because I think it's mostly edge cases. Like, I don't think that will be that common.

912
01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:01.180
Well, yeah. I mean, that's hard to say because I I think

913
01:10:02.520 --> 01:10:08.699
I think there's, like, you know, people losing money this way every every week. Because, like, if you look at some of these wallets to use, like,

914
01:10:09.080 --> 01:10:19.525
they're it it happen it it happens quite a bit. Like, I've seen people talk about it on Twitter. Someone I know was, like, testing out a wallet or, like, the dice rolls, and I think they lost, like, a $100.

915
01:10:21.585 --> 01:10:25.764
I think I was talking to Dee. I think they get support questions about that. So

916
01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:35.500
yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe more research on, like, how common it is or but I I think I you could start, like I think you let them import it, but you just

917
01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:37.740
scare the shit out of them. Yeah.

918
01:10:38.295 --> 01:10:42.875
Sounds good. I'm just looking through my list to see if I want any live feedback from you in the audience.

919
01:10:45.975 --> 01:10:47.115
Talked about c.

920
01:10:50.295 --> 01:10:52.395
How important is an address viewer?

921
01:10:52.710 --> 01:10:55.050
Basically, like a list of previously used addresses

922
01:10:55.670 --> 01:11:03.930
and, the next 25 addresses. And right now, you get, like, one address at a time, but, like, how important do you think it is to see previous addresses and stuff like that?

923
01:11:06.025 --> 01:11:07.645
Maybe put that in the advanced

924
01:11:08.665 --> 01:11:11.305
menu or something. I there there is something

925
01:11:12.185 --> 01:11:15.565
maybe not advanced. There's there's something about new users

926
01:11:18.200 --> 01:11:22.220
where they think if they receive a payment to an old address, they won't get it.

927
01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:31.180
I don't know if that's the best way to handle that, though. I mean, obviously, I'm I'm kinda thinking about what Sparo does

928
01:11:31.665 --> 01:11:32.804
They show the

929
01:11:33.264 --> 01:11:35.445
full list of addresses when you click in.

930
01:11:37.264 --> 01:11:41.045
I will say on an organization level, it's a feature I use all the time,

931
01:11:42.465 --> 01:11:51.050
because we're doing multiple transact like, OpenSats, for instance, we're doing multiple transactions. Like, I constantly need to verify addresses and

932
01:11:51.430 --> 01:11:52.650
go into the history.

933
01:11:54.390 --> 01:11:57.290
But does the average user use that? I don't know.

934
01:11:59.835 --> 01:12:01.775
Yeah. So maybe lower on the list.

935
01:12:02.155 --> 01:12:08.335
Yeah. Especially since Cove is not multisig. So, like, it's there's never a situation where I'd be using it for something like Open Sats

936
01:12:08.875 --> 01:12:09.375
Yeah.

937
01:12:10.235 --> 01:12:11.535
On the payout side.

938
01:12:13.035 --> 01:12:14.495
On that note, though, like,

939
01:12:15.170 --> 01:12:16.070
it'd be interesting,

940
01:12:17.969 --> 01:12:21.349
to know when an address has been reused in the main wallet screen.

941
01:12:23.650 --> 01:12:27.510
So if you get, like, a transaction into an address that was already

942
01:12:27.810 --> 01:12:28.310
used,

943
01:12:28.685 --> 01:12:35.185
like, like, a little indicator saying, like Yeah. Maybe, like, a little yeah. Like or, like, a little red exclamation point or something.

944
01:12:36.125 --> 01:12:45.329
Yeah. I can see that scaring new users, but, again, maybe in a like, an advanced advanced Well, we see that with dust attacks. I mean, you said you wanted more privacy stuff.

945
01:12:47.389 --> 01:12:54.769
You know, I I'll send someone will send you $10 to an address that you already used, hoping that you'll combine it with a future output.

946
01:12:56.065 --> 01:13:02.304
Yes. And and on that note, I think one thing I haven't added yet is the ability to lock UTXO. So,

947
01:13:02.704 --> 01:13:04.324
that's coming soon as well.

948
01:13:05.744 --> 01:13:10.005
And that'll work with the label. So it should, transfer over with Sparrow.

949
01:13:10.929 --> 01:13:15.429
Okay. Last last question about features. How important do you think a desktop

950
01:13:15.730 --> 01:13:17.190
app is? Because,

951
01:13:19.409 --> 01:13:19.909
yeah.

952
01:13:21.329 --> 01:13:22.949
Here's my thinking behind this.

953
01:13:24.795 --> 01:13:32.575
If someone prefers using desktop, I think it'd be nice to have a really nice, well designed, modern looking UI. But the other thing is if you're using desktop,

954
01:13:33.035 --> 01:13:36.975
will they just use Sparrow instead? So should I focus just on mobile?

955
01:13:37.515 --> 01:13:39.615
It's not a huge lift because, like,

956
01:13:40.050 --> 01:13:46.310
it's just kinda changing the screens to work better with the added real estate. But, yeah, what do you think about that?

957
01:13:46.690 --> 01:13:48.150
I like desktop because

958
01:13:49.730 --> 01:13:52.710
of the thing we talked about earlier when if you're just recommending

959
01:13:53.730 --> 01:13:54.390
a wallet,

960
01:13:54.905 --> 01:13:56.605
you don't have to ask what platform.

961
01:13:57.465 --> 01:14:01.725
Right. It's the same reason why like, I I think just all things equal,

962
01:14:02.105 --> 01:14:03.565
multi platform multi

963
01:14:04.025 --> 01:14:08.765
platform apps are just the best because I don't have to ask if they're desktop, Android, or iPhone.

964
01:14:09.145 --> 01:14:10.125
I just say

965
01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:11.300
install primal.

966
01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:14.659
Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

967
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:24.500
Yeah. Okay. I mean, that was all my all my questions. Do you have any feature requests for Cove you wanna make or the audience? I don't know. Freaks, do you have any I I see pseudo Carlos

968
01:14:25.440 --> 01:14:25.940
said

969
01:14:28.455 --> 01:14:30.315
to not show all the addresses.

970
01:14:31.415 --> 01:14:32.955
You're just gonna scare people.

971
01:14:33.415 --> 01:14:42.560
Okay. I think that's fair. It is probably pretty I mean, maybe that's an advanced menu thing. Yeah. Maybe it's something you can just you can enable, but it starts off disabled.

972
01:14:43.020 --> 01:14:44.320
Yeah. Makes sense to me.

973
01:14:45.260 --> 01:14:47.120
Freaks, if you have any future requests,

974
01:14:48.780 --> 01:14:51.600
either put them in a live chat or you can tag Perveen

975
01:14:52.140 --> 01:14:53.520
on x or Noster.

976
01:14:56.275 --> 01:15:00.455
I have I'm gonna put I'll put all the links to those to to his

977
01:15:01.075 --> 01:15:02.855
socials in in the show notes.

978
01:15:05.315 --> 01:15:06.295
Alright. So

979
01:15:07.010 --> 01:15:08.469
what was your question again?

980
01:15:08.770 --> 01:15:09.910
State of Bitcoin.

981
01:15:10.449 --> 01:15:14.310
How you how you think about Bitcoin right now? Are you bullish? Are you bearish? Industry

982
01:15:16.210 --> 01:15:16.710
tools?

983
01:15:17.570 --> 01:15:18.949
Yeah. I understand.

984
01:15:19.410 --> 01:15:23.815
Officially or, like, overall, I think I'm pretty bullish. I feel

985
01:15:24.195 --> 01:15:28.535
like as I've been working on Cove, I've been paying attention to price and Bitcoin

986
01:15:28.915 --> 01:15:31.575
a lot less. I've just been very focused on Cove.

987
01:15:33.960 --> 01:15:34.460
Definitely

988
01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:38.380
bullish. I think the MSTR stuff is interesting.

989
01:15:38.840 --> 01:15:40.460
I'm not gonna buy it, but

990
01:15:41.240 --> 01:15:50.025
I'm not a super purist on it. Like, I I guess it's bringing more people into Bitcoin that might not have been in it. I guess the question

991
01:15:50.565 --> 01:15:52.664
will be, are they going to eventually,

992
01:15:54.485 --> 01:15:58.025
transition into self custody? And I think yes.

993
01:15:59.764 --> 01:16:00.744
And I'm not

994
01:16:02.164 --> 01:16:07.040
I don't think, like, paper Bitcoin is a is a big concern, to be honest.

995
01:16:07.900 --> 01:16:08.960
So I think overall

996
01:16:09.420 --> 01:16:11.520
Why don't you think paper Bitcoin is a concern?

997
01:16:12.460 --> 01:16:13.360
I just think

998
01:16:14.300 --> 01:16:23.255
if you could paper over Bitcoin as you could with gold, then Bitcoin wouldn't be Bitcoin. Right? The reason Bitcoin is Bitcoin is because it's hard to do. Because

999
01:16:24.434 --> 01:16:25.414
everybody acting,

1000
01:16:25.875 --> 01:16:27.255
in their own self interest

1001
01:16:27.715 --> 01:16:32.295
makes, and the fact that anybody can custody it, I think, makes it really hard

1002
01:16:32.690 --> 01:16:39.030
for one someone to paper over it because it affects everybody. So if some Yeah. If the market thinks that's happening, they'll,

1003
01:16:39.410 --> 01:16:44.710
you know, they'll act on it. Yeah. I think self interest. My thesis is that short term, you can.

1004
01:16:45.145 --> 01:16:46.685
Yeah. Short term. And

1005
01:16:47.065 --> 01:16:51.565
people might get wrecked through individual things or whatever. And, you know,

1006
01:16:52.105 --> 01:16:59.804
it's not just MSTR now. There's, you know, a a ton of, like, penny stocks that are, like, converting into, quote, unquote, Bitcoin treasury companies.

1007
01:17:00.110 --> 01:17:04.110
And some of them may commit fraud and people lose their money. Yeah.

1008
01:17:04.670 --> 01:17:06.690
But in terms of as an overall

1009
01:17:07.150 --> 01:17:07.650
network,

1010
01:17:08.349 --> 01:17:11.170
I think anyone who plays paper Bitcoin games will eventually

1011
01:17:12.280 --> 01:17:12.780
specifically,

1012
01:17:13.635 --> 01:17:21.655
if they're, like, effectively net short Bitcoin and are trying to suppress the price, they'll just get blown the fuck up. At at some point, they will blow up,

1013
01:17:22.195 --> 01:17:25.175
because people will just keep buying Bitcoin, taking self custody,

1014
01:17:25.810 --> 01:17:31.429
and the supply will get scarcer and scarcer until they blow up. And that's kinda what we saw with BlockFi and FTX and Celsius.

1015
01:17:32.050 --> 01:17:34.790
Exactly. And I think that's long term bullish. So,

1016
01:17:35.570 --> 01:17:38.870
yeah. I think I think the bigger issue, though, the bigger issue is

1017
01:17:39.864 --> 01:17:41.324
to your point with Bitkey.

1018
01:17:41.705 --> 01:17:44.045
If you're you have issues with Bitkey's messaging

1019
01:17:44.985 --> 01:17:48.364
and the lack of flow to move to a more secure setup,

1020
01:17:48.744 --> 01:17:50.364
like, someone buying MSTR

1021
01:17:50.985 --> 01:17:52.364
in their brokerage account

1022
01:17:53.070 --> 01:17:58.130
is so far away from self custodying Bitcoin. Like, I don't know what that flow is,

1023
01:17:58.590 --> 01:17:59.090
particularly,

1024
01:18:00.350 --> 01:18:02.530
if if MSTR keeps

1025
01:18:02.990 --> 01:18:06.450
outperforming Bitcoin too because they have a financial incentive

1026
01:18:07.115 --> 01:18:10.095
to give up that personal responsibility, give up the self custody

1027
01:18:10.475 --> 01:18:11.675
for the better gains. Yeah.

1028
01:18:13.355 --> 01:18:18.815
Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm naive, but what I'm thinking is 10 x fixes everything. Basically, you know, you buy MSDR,

1029
01:18:19.115 --> 01:18:29.680
Bitcoin 10 x is now you get nervous. Like, I've heard about all this. Have to take you'd have to take a 20% in America, you'd have to take a 20% hit on taxes to do that transaction, though.

1030
01:18:30.060 --> 01:18:32.640
Oh, yeah. I guess it's realized. That's a good point.

1031
01:18:33.100 --> 01:18:34.240
That's a good point. Yeah.

1032
01:18:34.885 --> 01:18:39.625
Well, the thing is that a lot of people that I know that are Bitcoiners that are buying MSTR,

1033
01:18:40.645 --> 01:18:42.265
are buying it in tax advantaged,

1034
01:18:42.805 --> 01:19:05.369
accounts. So I'm not super familiar with The US stuff right now, but in The U Canada, there's CFSA's and RRSPs and stuff where where you wouldn't be you wouldn't you wouldn't take a hit. But then, I mean, you might not wanna take it out anyway. So I don't know. We'll see what happens. Yeah. You don't take a hit as long as you keep it there in the tax advantage account, but you would take a hit if you tried to bring it into self custody anyway. And that's Yeah. I mean, look. I don't think

1035
01:19:05.805 --> 01:19:06.844
I don't think it's,

1036
01:19:08.045 --> 01:19:11.425
like, an attack on Bitcoin. I don't I don't think, like, it

1037
01:19:11.805 --> 01:19:13.185
I think if you if

1038
01:19:14.925 --> 01:19:21.510
you if you net net everything out, like, MSTR is just end sale is, like, clearly a net benefit for Bitcoin

1039
01:19:21.890 --> 01:19:23.190
Yeah. As a whole.

1040
01:19:24.930 --> 01:19:27.750
The cons and the concern is more for individuals.

1041
01:19:28.690 --> 01:19:31.190
And at the end of the day, I'm also not paternalistic.

1042
01:19:31.650 --> 01:19:32.150
Like,

1043
01:19:32.455 --> 01:19:38.875
part of a movement of personal responsibility is that if people wanna get Bitcoin exposure, quote, unquote, use Bitcoin in different ways,

1044
01:19:39.255 --> 01:19:42.955
like, that like, that's their prerogative. They can do whatever they want.

1045
01:19:44.135 --> 01:19:45.275
But I do think

1046
01:19:48.440 --> 01:19:50.620
I do think it's an interesting dichotomy

1047
01:19:51.320 --> 01:19:54.139
where people will be very hardcore about

1048
01:19:54.520 --> 01:20:08.880
the risks of sixty one zero two attacks and go very deep in on one side of the Bitcoin community and go very deep on, you need to have multisig. Sig, you need to have this, you need to have privacy, you need to have all these other things. And then, like, 99%

1049
01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:16.219
of the new money is just opening up Charles Schwab and Yeah. Buying, buying a Bitcoin stock. Yeah. I mean, maybe you think it's,

1050
01:20:16.780 --> 01:20:20.400
hypocritical that I kinda went harder on Vicky than I did on MSTR.

1051
01:20:21.180 --> 01:20:27.345
And I I guess I understand that, but at the same time, MSTR is not pretending to be self custody. Right?

1052
01:20:27.905 --> 01:20:28.885
It's like

1053
01:20:29.905 --> 01:20:30.405
I

1054
01:20:31.745 --> 01:20:41.445
guess. It's it's it's not. It's pretending it's it's, you know, you get Bitcoin exposure. That's it's Well, no. You get you get better than Bitcoin exposure is the marketing.

1055
01:20:41.950 --> 01:20:43.570
They will outperform Bitcoin.

1056
01:20:45.150 --> 01:20:47.250
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. But

1057
01:20:47.710 --> 01:20:56.290
they they with MSTR, you're buying NGU. You're not buying all the other stuff. Right? So I think it I think, personally, it makes sense.

1058
01:20:57.715 --> 01:21:01.175
I I don't think it's super hypocritical to go go at, Vicky because

1059
01:21:03.075 --> 01:21:03.975
they are pretending

1060
01:21:04.355 --> 01:21:07.415
and they are being self custody. Again, like,

1061
01:21:08.275 --> 01:21:17.070
I I think your points made sense. I'm just not a fan of the, you know, the the shit. Well, look, look, I'm not just I'm not just picking up Vicky. Like, the latest thing that people are fighting about,

1062
01:21:18.250 --> 01:21:19.949
is while the Satoshi

1063
01:21:20.570 --> 01:21:21.869
added Spark wallets

1064
01:21:22.250 --> 01:21:23.869
Spark SDK support,

1065
01:21:24.635 --> 01:21:25.375
which is,

1066
01:21:26.235 --> 01:21:28.015
you know What is that?

1067
01:21:28.555 --> 01:21:29.835
It's so it's,

1068
01:21:30.155 --> 01:21:31.455
it's a state chain,

1069
01:21:32.075 --> 01:21:36.255
right, which is similar to Mercury layer. I don't know if you're familiar with Mercury layer,

1070
01:21:36.955 --> 01:21:37.455
but

1071
01:21:38.030 --> 01:21:41.570
it's one of those things that, like, sits in between so, basically,

1072
01:21:42.510 --> 01:21:45.810
LightSpark took Mercury layer state chain implementation,

1073
01:21:46.910 --> 01:21:47.730
and then

1074
01:21:48.590 --> 01:21:48.990
they

1075
01:21:49.550 --> 01:21:57.365
which is open source, and they modified it a bit to take out the privacy benefits, and that's what Spark is. And the way it's set up is if

1076
01:21:58.625 --> 01:22:08.870
if the operator of the state chain and this is my understanding is this is because there's been no soft fork, but, presumably, we could have a soft fork that makes the trust model better. But as it currently stands,

1077
01:22:09.810 --> 01:22:13.990
the operator of the state chain can't take your money unless they're actively being malicious,

1078
01:22:14.850 --> 01:22:17.190
because it it involves swaps. So

1079
01:22:18.130 --> 01:22:20.550
you need the person you're swapping with,

1080
01:22:21.205 --> 01:22:28.825
would need to collude with the operator to take your money. But, of course, there's a situation as well where the operator could be the person you're swapping with, and you don't even know.

1081
01:22:30.085 --> 01:22:32.985
So it, like, sits in between self custody and custodial.

1082
01:22:33.640 --> 01:22:34.140
Mhmm.

1083
01:22:34.440 --> 01:22:39.100
I would put liquid in, like, a kind of another similar basket where,

1084
01:22:40.440 --> 01:22:44.380
I think, technically, you can't you shouldn't be able you shouldn't call that self custody,

1085
01:22:45.080 --> 01:22:46.620
because there's trust in the federation.

1086
01:22:47.135 --> 01:22:50.755
Yeah. But it's strictly better than a single seg custodian,

1087
01:22:51.295 --> 01:22:53.235
like a traditional custodial model.

1088
01:22:53.695 --> 01:22:54.435
But, anyway,

1089
01:22:55.295 --> 01:22:57.075
and then on one side, you have

1090
01:22:57.935 --> 01:23:00.515
these companies that don't wanna be regulated like custodians.

1091
01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:07.460
Right? So LightSpark and Wallet and Satoshi don't wanna do KYC, don't wanna be regulated as custodians. So they're never gonna say the quiet part out loud.

1092
01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:11.300
And then you have the hardcore technical people

1093
01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:14.980
that are like, this is not self custody. You can't call this self custody.

1094
01:23:15.365 --> 01:23:27.600
And they'll never gonna agree with each other because they're both arguing from different perspectives. One's trying to play regulatory arbitrage because Tron gets away with pretending that they're self custody even though you can't self custody on Tron because Justin Sun just owns the whole thing.

1095
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:32.580
And so they're arguing from different levels. And then meanwhile, 99% of the money is going into MSTR.

1096
01:23:33.360 --> 01:23:41.380
And that's that's the part of this cycle that's weird to me. Like, that's the like, I love I love that Bitcoin's an adversarial environment,

1097
01:23:41.805 --> 01:23:43.505
but it's just a weird dichotomy

1098
01:23:44.445 --> 01:23:51.505
from, like, the realest like, if if someone uses Bitcoin for the first time on Walletist Associates powered by Spark SDK,

1099
01:23:52.925 --> 01:23:56.865
that's a win. To me, that's a massive win. Like, we've just won

1100
01:23:57.210 --> 01:23:58.110
another person

1101
01:23:58.970 --> 01:24:01.550
using Bitcoin and transacting in Bitcoin

1102
01:24:02.410 --> 01:24:03.870
rather than buying a stock.

1103
01:24:04.730 --> 01:24:07.470
So that's how I think about it. Does that makes any sense?

1104
01:24:08.650 --> 01:24:14.364
Yeah. I mean, if you think about custody and soft custody is how many people does it take to rug you?

1105
01:24:14.905 --> 01:24:15.405
Yes.

1106
01:24:15.785 --> 01:24:16.285
If

1107
01:24:16.985 --> 01:24:19.165
Spark only takes one person to rug you,

1108
01:24:20.025 --> 01:24:30.180
how is that better than MSTI? I feel like you need way more people to rug you. Like, you know, there's regulators. There's all these, like you know, the government might need to get involved. Well, no. I mean, m s MSTR,

1109
01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:31.300
you're trusting

1110
01:24:32.400 --> 01:24:34.740
first of all, you're trusting the government. It's like

1111
01:24:35.120 --> 01:24:44.945
it's like one executive order away from a sixty one zero two at, like, any point. Yeah. So you're so you're trusting the government. Rug. Yeah. And you're trusting three corporations.

1112
01:24:45.565 --> 01:24:47.505
You're trusting your brokerage account.

1113
01:24:48.125 --> 01:24:48.945
You're trusting

1114
01:24:49.885 --> 01:24:52.305
Sailor and MSTR, and then you're trusting his custodian.

1115
01:24:52.830 --> 01:24:59.969
Okay. So you Any of those three could rug you? Yeah. Okay. So there's multiple parties, and any one of them could rug you Individually. Individually

1116
01:25:00.909 --> 01:25:09.715
where you just park you one party, and they would need to rug. I guess I I guess that's better, but, like, how am I gonna do that? It's about three

1117
01:25:10.655 --> 01:25:15.295
three counterparty is better. At at at that point, why not just use liquid then? Like, isn't,

1118
01:25:16.175 --> 01:25:17.055
it wouldn't liquid

1119
01:25:17.935 --> 01:25:20.115
what's the liquid app that does lightning,

1120
01:25:20.580 --> 01:25:30.040
like, Mun or Moon? What's that one again? Well, no. So Moon does on chain swaps. Yeah. No. I mean, the one that does it Aqua. Aqua. Right? So why not Aqua

1121
01:25:30.420 --> 01:25:30.920
over,

1122
01:25:31.619 --> 01:25:35.855
Spark then? It takes you would need more people to rug you on Aqua. Because,

1123
01:25:37.514 --> 01:25:41.135
yeah, you would need more people because I I think the active federation

1124
01:25:42.155 --> 01:25:43.855
of Liquid is like a sixteen

1125
01:25:45.030 --> 01:25:46.490
sixteen entity multisig.

1126
01:25:47.590 --> 01:25:50.970
So Liquid has a strictly better trust model from that point of view,

1127
01:25:51.590 --> 01:25:53.130
because the swaps have,

1128
01:25:54.310 --> 01:25:56.490
heavy fee burden at small amounts.

1129
01:25:57.485 --> 01:26:03.025
So Yeah. So with Spark with Spark, you could your first Bitcoin receipt could be a 100 sats.

1130
01:26:03.565 --> 01:26:05.985
You can't you can't do that with liquid swaps

1131
01:26:06.365 --> 01:26:06.865
because

1132
01:26:08.045 --> 01:26:09.185
there's this cost.

1133
01:26:09.510 --> 01:26:10.730
There's to

1134
01:26:11.110 --> 01:26:13.530
there there's there's fee cost there.

1135
01:26:14.070 --> 01:26:14.570
Well,

1136
01:26:14.870 --> 01:26:18.150
I was listening to I think it was on settled dispatch with Evan,

1137
01:26:18.710 --> 01:26:19.210
and

1138
01:26:19.590 --> 01:26:22.090
they were he was talking about using, e cash

1139
01:26:22.695 --> 01:26:24.795
first and then going to Lightning.

1140
01:26:25.575 --> 01:26:37.995
I like that flow. Yeah. I mean, you could do the same thing with Spark. You could Yeah. You could effectively like, once you hit a 100,000 sats or something in a Spark wallet, you could graduate them too. Yeah.

1141
01:26:38.610 --> 01:26:51.190
Well, I mean, I'm not super familiar with Spark, but maybe I'm missing something. But if you think about self custody versus custodial as how many people it takes to rug you, I don't see how Spark is any different than Mint

1142
01:26:52.065 --> 01:26:53.205
or eCash

1143
01:26:53.585 --> 01:27:04.965
because, like, it's one party who needs to rug you. Right? If anything, eCash, you could make the argument better because because you can split your money among many Mints. And then to rug a 100%, you would need

1144
01:27:06.530 --> 01:27:08.390
more than one person to rug you.

1145
01:27:10.050 --> 01:27:10.550
Yeah.

1146
01:27:11.330 --> 01:27:15.110
I I think I think the difference is the key difference is

1147
01:27:16.690 --> 01:27:19.670
it's really hard for a cashew mint operator

1148
01:27:19.970 --> 01:27:20.470
to

1149
01:27:20.865 --> 01:27:22.485
legally argue in court

1150
01:27:23.265 --> 01:27:25.925
that they're not custodial. They're clearly custodial.

1151
01:27:26.785 --> 01:27:31.665
And I think LightSpark is I think they received, like, a $165,000,000

1152
01:27:31.665 --> 01:27:32.965
from a 16 z,

1153
01:27:33.425 --> 01:27:36.005
and we'll have a decent case in court

1154
01:27:36.840 --> 01:27:42.940
that there's they're gonna try and fight if they have to, they will fight this in court that they're self custody and that they don't have to do KYC.

1155
01:27:43.320 --> 01:27:47.100
And that's what I'm saying. That's the and so if you're a wallet provider,

1156
01:27:48.680 --> 01:27:51.820
and I love Cashew, but if you're a wallet provider like Zeus,

1157
01:27:52.435 --> 01:27:54.695
I asked Evan this, and Evan was like,

1158
01:27:55.235 --> 01:28:06.695
which mint do the users choose, especially if they're a new user. Right? And how do you guide them to pick the right mint? And the wallet providers don't want to do that. They don't wanna have the liability of be like, use MiniBits.

1159
01:28:07.200 --> 01:28:11.140
Use this Mint. So they kinda just throw the user out to the

1160
01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:18.739
to the sharks, and they're like, pick your own Mint. Maybe they have a NASDAQ recommendation system or something. But if you're the guy who's running well to Satoshi

1161
01:28:19.520 --> 01:28:20.020
and

1162
01:28:20.375 --> 01:28:24.875
the quote, unquote Mint or the provider can just be a 16 z backed LightSpark,

1163
01:28:26.054 --> 01:28:27.995
and you can just put your users there,

1164
01:28:28.535 --> 01:28:33.275
I can see how you that would be a more comfortable decision to sleep at night than

1165
01:28:33.590 --> 01:28:38.010
just throw them out there and be like, pick your mint on your own. Yeah. That makes sense.

1166
01:28:38.389 --> 01:28:45.050
Yeah. Yeah. But, do you know if well, does Satoshi guides them to, like, a LSB or something when they have more

1167
01:28:45.429 --> 01:28:45.869
more,

1168
01:28:46.469 --> 01:28:48.489
It doesn't right now. No. I have the beta.

1169
01:28:48.945 --> 01:28:53.605
But I wouldn't be surprised if they move to some kind of I mean, I think you could also

1170
01:28:54.305 --> 01:28:56.645
what might be cleaner for an end user is

1171
01:28:58.065 --> 01:29:02.725
screw the LSP model. Just when they hit a 100,000 sides, bring them on chain.

1172
01:29:04.900 --> 01:29:08.200
Yeah. But then, I mean, as as fees go up, and then what if you wanna

1173
01:29:08.900 --> 01:29:11.960
spend a 100,000? Well, I have a live view of the mempool right now.

1174
01:29:12.580 --> 01:29:16.455
Yeah. But, I mean, it's not gonna be one forever. Right? I mean, I don't think so.

1175
01:29:16.915 --> 01:29:20.615
Well, let's juice those numbers, and then we can then we can make the

1176
01:29:21.155 --> 01:29:26.135
then we can make the operations more efficient. But I don't know. I just there's something to be said about

1177
01:29:26.915 --> 01:29:32.039
the beauty of on chain. And I I as long as people can afford the fees on chain,

1178
01:29:33.219 --> 01:29:37.719
like, maybe the threshold isn't a 100,000 sats. What a 100,000 sats right now is a $100.

1179
01:29:38.019 --> 01:29:38.519
Yeah.

1180
01:29:38.900 --> 01:29:40.679
I don't think David Marcus is

1181
01:29:41.125 --> 01:29:44.905
probably not gonna wanna go to jail for stealing a $100 from you.

1182
01:29:45.925 --> 01:29:52.905
So maybe a 100,000 isn't the right number. Maybe it's five 100,000 sets, and then you just graduate them on chain. And then you can just skip

1183
01:29:53.525 --> 01:29:56.824
Lightning channels, which are also gonna have an on chain fee.

1184
01:29:59.500 --> 01:30:07.520
Yeah. And you just skip Lightning channels, and you do all Lightning sends and receives in the I think someone called it a trustodial model in the in the

1185
01:30:08.060 --> 01:30:20.225
middle model. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why I'm complaining. I'm, for when it comes to lightning, I basically just use primal right now. I'm, like, full on custodial. It's straight up custodial with k y with, like, KYC, but KYC nonetheless.

1186
01:30:20.605 --> 01:30:26.785
Yeah. Exactly. But I'm maybe just just don't call it self custodial because I think while, while it is What they

1187
01:30:27.290 --> 01:30:27.610
was,

1188
01:30:28.410 --> 01:30:30.590
marketing it as self custodial, but I guess

1189
01:30:31.450 --> 01:30:36.110
for legal reasons. Yeah. Yeah. You can't. If you say it's custodial and you're not doing KYC,

1190
01:30:36.410 --> 01:30:41.070
then Yeah. Okay. That's a good point. They're never gonna admit they're never gonna admit it out loud.

1191
01:30:41.935 --> 01:30:47.074
Okay. Okay. Okay. I get it. There's a reason why Justin's son always says Tron is self custody.

1192
01:30:47.695 --> 01:30:48.195
Yeah.

1193
01:30:49.455 --> 01:30:51.795
Right? Because it's he doesn't wanna go to the gulag.

1194
01:30:52.175 --> 01:30:54.675
Yeah. Okay. Okay. I get it.

1195
01:30:56.250 --> 01:31:04.429
Yeah. I mean, definitely, right now, lightning as much as, like, the technical people say, the best way to use it the only nice way to use it

1196
01:31:04.730 --> 01:31:08.909
is with some sort of custodial model Or Phoenix. In my opinion.

1197
01:31:10.175 --> 01:31:11.955
Ever yeah. I've heard Phoenix is good.

1198
01:31:12.335 --> 01:31:13.635
I But is Phoenix

1199
01:31:14.095 --> 01:31:31.190
I think I think there's you could make a tactical argument that Phoenix is custodial too. Custodial too. If if by your definition, if it only takes one party to rug. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the best definition of custodial because, like, that ultimately, that's what matters. Right? Like, how many people does it take?

1200
01:31:31.650 --> 01:31:46.114
Yeah. It does with my Bitcoin on chain in a cold card, it doesn't matter how many people collude. You cannot rug me. Right? Yep. That's the one one spectrum, and the other one is, let's say, cash and mint. Just one unknown person can rug you. Yeah.

1201
01:31:46.494 --> 01:31:48.034
I know. I think that's a good definition.

1202
01:31:51.830 --> 01:31:53.530
I see Johnny's asking

1203
01:31:56.070 --> 01:31:56.570
if

1204
01:31:56.949 --> 01:31:58.969
my suite UI is available,

1205
01:31:59.510 --> 01:32:01.849
mempool. I think it's mempool.space

1206
01:32:01.909 --> 01:32:02.810
slash clock

1207
01:32:04.310 --> 01:32:04.710
is the

1208
01:32:05.725 --> 01:32:09.665
yeah, mempool dot space slash clock is the background I use for dispatch.

1209
01:32:13.324 --> 01:32:17.505
Soap miner zapped 10,000 sats. Thank you, Soap Miner, for supporting the show.

1210
01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:24.260
Soap miner has some of the best homemade soap, and he accepts Bitcoin.

1211
01:32:24.719 --> 01:32:26.580
It's the only soap my family uses.

1212
01:32:29.440 --> 01:32:36.075
Dami x RV and x is asking, what percentage of users will use custodial services or or self custody in ten years?

1213
01:32:36.615 --> 01:32:37.115
Praveen.

1214
01:32:38.295 --> 01:32:42.075
Oh, man. That's so hard. I have no idea what the next ten years is gonna look like.

1215
01:32:43.415 --> 01:32:44.315
In ten years,

1216
01:32:45.735 --> 01:32:46.475
What percentage?

1217
01:32:49.849 --> 01:32:54.829
I have oh, what percentage of Bitcoin users? Okay. Let's say 5%.

1218
01:32:55.130 --> 01:32:57.309
Customer I think that's it. I mean, self custodial.

1219
01:32:57.770 --> 01:32:58.270
Yeah.

1220
01:32:58.969 --> 01:32:59.630
I think

1221
01:33:02.625 --> 01:33:05.125
I think if you did it in terms of Bitcoin amount,

1222
01:33:05.744 --> 01:33:06.565
it'd be

1223
01:33:07.344 --> 01:33:07.844
significantly

1224
01:33:08.145 --> 01:33:11.025
higher. It'd be like 70%

1225
01:33:11.025 --> 01:33:14.324
or something. But in terms of number of users, like individuals,

1226
01:33:15.470 --> 01:33:17.410
it's probably closer to 5%.

1227
01:33:17.950 --> 01:33:21.810
And, like, our single goal should be to try and increase that number that percentage.

1228
01:33:22.990 --> 01:33:25.970
Oh, that's pretty bullish, though. If you can get 70% of

1229
01:33:26.510 --> 01:33:29.570
amount Bitcoin amount in custo self custody,

1230
01:33:30.030 --> 01:33:34.605
that's that's good. Right? That's, I mean, I think that's kinda where we're at right now. Yeah.

1231
01:33:35.465 --> 01:33:42.685
Yeah. So it's just not many people. Yeah. So what are we also worried about then? It's all good. No. Not everybody can use the main chain anyway.

1232
01:33:43.480 --> 01:33:43.980
Well,

1233
01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:49.560
awesome. Praveen, this is great.

1234
01:33:49.960 --> 01:33:52.540
Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap here?

1235
01:33:54.360 --> 01:33:56.380
No. Thanks for having me on. It's been fun.

1236
01:33:57.825 --> 01:33:59.845
When you release Android, you'll come back on?

1237
01:34:00.785 --> 01:34:01.905
Yep. Sounds good.

1238
01:34:02.785 --> 01:34:10.290
And before I do, I will put out a beta. So anybody listening that's really Android's been number one requested thing, so help me test it.

1239
01:34:10.690 --> 01:34:16.150
Awesome. And, yeah, any if you are testing the iOS app, give them your feedback. All feedback is helpful.

1240
01:34:16.690 --> 01:34:17.190
Yes.

1241
01:34:18.210 --> 01:34:19.350
Freaks, I

1242
01:34:20.930 --> 01:34:29.835
have a great skip. Yep. Go on. Sorry. One more thing. If you are using, the iOS app right now and you like it, please leave a review. I think that helps,

1243
01:34:31.175 --> 01:34:36.235
move up in the search rankings on Apple when someone searches for it, which should be very helpful.

1244
01:34:36.855 --> 01:34:40.295
Yeah. Definitely leave a review right now if you search Bitcoin wallet. It's,

1245
01:34:41.020 --> 01:34:43.920
the top wallet is Trust Wallet by Binance

1246
01:34:44.460 --> 01:34:47.199
and then a bunch of other horrible, horrible wallets.

1247
01:34:49.659 --> 01:34:51.040
So every review helps.

1248
01:34:52.219 --> 01:34:53.840
And while you're there, you know,

1249
01:34:55.145 --> 01:34:58.445
like and subscribe to Cielo Dispatch in your favorite podcast app.

1250
01:35:00.265 --> 01:35:05.885
Freaks, I have a great lineup set up for us. July 7. So what is that? I think that's Monday.

1251
01:35:07.640 --> 01:35:07.960
Yeah. Monday,

1252
01:35:09.320 --> 01:35:16.700
I have Jeff and Max coming on. They're doing white noise, which is basically signal, but on Noster, so secure messaging on Noster.

1253
01:35:17.320 --> 01:35:19.100
Then July 11, I have

1254
01:35:19.975 --> 01:35:22.555
a conversation about webs of trust using Nasr.

1255
01:35:22.935 --> 01:35:23.835
July 14,

1256
01:35:24.455 --> 01:35:27.835
an AI chat with Matt Alberg of PPQ AI,

1257
01:35:28.535 --> 01:35:31.435
Ben Kaufman of Keeper Wallet, Cali from Cashew.

1258
01:35:33.170 --> 01:35:34.710
Gleason's gonna come back.

1259
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But, yeah, we got a great lineup, and then

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Praveen's gonna ship Android, and then he's gonna come back.

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Praveen, thanks again for joining. Thanks again for building building Cove, and, we'll talk soon. Talk soon. Good one. Awesome. Stay on those tax hats, freaks. Peace.