CD157: NVK - COINKITE AND SELF CUSTODY

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 04/30/2025 01:35:28
Duration: 6616.384
Channels: 1

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We're going to make it. If you wanna mine Bitcoin and you find the right place to do it, you can build your own power plant next to it. I mean, think about that for a second. You don't have to necessarily be on the grid.

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Right? So and and you're gonna see this happen, which is

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miners are going to put their

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data centers on top

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of gas fields.

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Right? And then put a

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plant right next to them so that they won't be beholden

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to the drawing power and listening to all these stories about, oh, you're taking too much power, and now the cost of operating my refrigerator is higher and all the things we have to deal with now. What you'll see is the next generation of miners in America

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will be able to control their destiny, control the cost of power, and I think that is going to turbocharge,

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Bitcoin mining in America. And so the ideas for the investment accelerator

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to help people, as an example, who have those kind of ideas. How do they get those permits? How do you execute on that plan? You call the investment accelerator, and we help you execute.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here

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for another Synod Dispatch, the interactive

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live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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I already see ride or die freak, Rob Hamilton,

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in the live chat, which you can find at sap.stream/odel

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saying, Matt is a commie. Discuss 4,200

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sats. Thank you for your money. I appreciate

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it.

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That intro was

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our boy Frank Korva interviewing

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our new commerce secretary

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secretary of commerce, Howard Lutnick,

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talking about off grid mining and how he wants it

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to be made in America and and done here. But, you know, it's

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something that many of us have heard for a long time, at least in Bitcoin circles.

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I'm very bullish on off grid mining,

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particularly what the boys at Upstream Data and Giga Energy are doing, dropping storage containers on oil fields. But it kinda hits different when the commerce secretary

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is talking about it. So that's why it felt like it was notable, and it should be there in the intro. Anyway, Freaks, as you know, dispatch is a % audience funded. We have no ads or sponsors.

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It is supported

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by the ride or die freaks who continue to donate and send sets to the show.

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Because I'm a masochist,

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I

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run my own node to collect those sats donations,

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and I discovered a few days ago that it was offline for a week.

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But you freaks still supported the show.

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So thank you to,

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JCB,

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who is our largest contributor on Fountain Podcast, the Fountain Podcast app with 20,000 sets.

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And as always, you can support the show in the live chat. We have Mav twenty one in there now

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who just sent us 10,000 sets. Thank you, Mav. Ride or die.

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Anyway, guys, I got a great show lined up.

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Return guest, good friend,

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founder of CoinKite,

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NVK. How's it going, NVK?

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Coping, but good good day. Good day. What are you cope what are you coping about? I'm not gonna get into the politics, but but, you know, you asked how it was. So,

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it's okay. It doesn't matter.

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The states are a Bitcoin. We're moving on from a. The states are a. We're moving on from it.

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He told me before the show he didn't wanna talk about the Canadian election, and then my first question, he responds with

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the Canadian election. So, I mean, while while we're on that topic No. We're not on that topic. Moving on.

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Okay. Down bad. Well, I will just say that,

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I things seem to be going pretty pretty well in the in The United States.

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Yeah. I know. I mean, you guys you guys are, you know, you guys got president pump.

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And,

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you know, like, there is the pumps and dumps, but there is also a lot of good happening. You know? Like, it's a it's a business friendly environment. That's that's a huge fucking deal.

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It's pretty interesting

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because,

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I mean,

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per capita, Canada has always had,

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like, a very, very strong

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Bitcoin population. Like, your total population is much smaller than The US. But in terms of, like

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When Bitcoin started, it was about 33,000,000

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people, and I would say, like,

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most,

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like, I I'd say, like, it was probably, like, first or second per capita

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Bitcoin holdings and sort of Bitcoin businesses in the world when Bitcoin sort of was in the early days.

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It was something, but they fucking pooch.

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What I mean, so my question to you is why do you think Canadians haven't been able to politically mobilize in the way that

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Americans have? Because Canadians are communist, and it's over, and everybody left. That's it. Like, it really is that simple. Like, when when all the smart people, all the people who have a fight in them leave,

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there's nobody else to fight. Right?

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It becomes sort of like it's like the equivalent of brain drain for freedom.

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It's like it's like California. You know? It's like everybody who could fight left.

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Yeah. I mean, California the one thing California still has going for it is that it's pretty. It's the weather.

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So some people still feel locked in there.

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Well, anyway, if,

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I

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we can get you an h one b visa. You can come run custody for my family. There you go. Bring it bring it into America.

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Done.

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Okay. Well, this is not what we're gonna talk about,

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but, MBK brought it up because

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he's coping pretty hard. And I guess the election was yesterday.

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We're gonna be talking about I wanna, I mean, I think we should be talking about self custody in general. I mean, this cycle is an interesting cycle to me. It feels different

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than

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previous cycles in that

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there doesn't seem to be, like, that much retail interest. Like, the average mom and pop

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coming into Bitcoin

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percentage wise seems much lower, and it seems to be much more

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suit types

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Wow.

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And bros that are, like, trading MSTR and stuff. Yeah. I'm sure you have opinions.

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You're a man of many opinions.

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So, yeah, let's let's start there. What's what's your opinion on that?

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Retail doesn't come to Bitcoin anymore.

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Retail goes to to the to the equities, right, to the to the paper Bitcoin.

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Alright. They're like the shit coins of the cycle.

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Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like, I mean, you know, honestly, like, I I I rather people have MSTR than they buy, you know, SUSHI.

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Yeah. Or Ethereum. Or SUSHI. No. I I don't know. I've moved two minds on that one. Like, on on the plus side, Sushi was a lot more

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sovereign,

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you you know, than MSTR is,

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but MSTR pumps

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our bags and gives Bitcoin more power.

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So it's it's a tricky one. There's no good answers.

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Yeah. I mean, if you were gonna use a DEX,

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like, one of these Shitcoin DEXs, you had to

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know self custody. You actually

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I mean,

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because they were, like, account based models

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Yeah. Fundamentally, there was a lot of differences there. But still, they had to understand managing private keys. They were in a much more risky environment. They were getting rugged left and right. Like, there was a lot of learning experiences that could be had. It was well people

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and then some subset of those people. Right? You take, like, maybe 10% of the people that come in and get wrecked in salon the Solana ecosystem.

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Then then they eventually come to Bitcoin.

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Right? That was even pre Solana. It was even more decentralized.

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What?

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The the Sushis.

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Well, I think confused about that stuff. But, yes, that was I I'm not positive. One of them I think SushiSwap might have been the Solana 1, and then Okay. Ethereum had a different one that predated it. But I might just be wrong. I'm not positive.

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I mean, let's let's give them some credit. You know, Tornado Cash still, like, you know, very large pool of coin cleaning service.

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Freedom freedom providing service.

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I mean, Ethereum's getting wrecked right now, though. And, I mean, unless you're cartel level, you can't use MSTR to clean your coins.

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I don't know how this conversation got to this point, but my question to you is, do you think

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is there a path is there a path

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for people that are

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speculating on MSTR right now to actually go into self custody Bitcoin.

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Yes.

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It's not the same thing. That journey look like? I I I have a feeling that

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once people experience

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a a proper Bitcoin pump, even if it's secondhand because remember, right, like, MSTR holders and I'm not talking about big funds holding MSTR. I'm talking about the little guy. Right?

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Individuals holding MSTR,

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they're gonna watch

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for the first time between now and, you know, a little bit from now, a big pump on BTC.

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Right?

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And

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and and and and I think they're gonna, like, look at the amount of, like,

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bullshit they're gonna have to deal with with their brokers,

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you know, to to maybe liquidate some of that and, like, you you know, like, now they have the capital gains in their accounts and everything's calculated for them.

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Or they have to leave

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their country of origin and they're not able to because, you know, their their wealth is stuck in a broker.

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And and I think they're gonna watch secondhand

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a lot of the people who are self custodying,

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like, talking about,

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you know, their gains in real Bitcoin.

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And, I think that might inspire them to wanna have some of that and be able to to jump on a plane and leave and do whatever they have to.

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Yeah. I mean, I think there's gonna be some

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I mean, you

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like, there's there's there's no way that it's the number is zero that moved from

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MSTR or MSTY

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or

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21 or whatever It's not ideal.

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But it's ETFs.

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But it's gonna be a small I think it'll be a small number. I don't Yes. It's not it's not as ease like,

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and I don't know

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it's not as easy as someone who was in a shit coin and then moving to Bitcoin. At least that was fundamentally

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similar,

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and there is many mechanisms where you can swap your shit coins for Bitcoin really easily. You can't go to shit, but

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Yeah. Both MSTR

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to be distilling.

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Yeah.

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But they're stuck. I mean

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They're stuck. If the if the liquid bulls have their way, maybe one day, you'll just be able to move from your tokenized MSTR to

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to Bitcoin.

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So

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two things. First of all, we have,

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Raken in the chat, sent 21,000 sats saying, let Nick wants Bitcoin to succeed.

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Discuss. Yeah. I

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mean, I I think we discussed it already. B r k zap 21,000

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saying open sats rules.

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Thank you for your support.

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It does And our resident shit corner,

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Rob Hamilton, I knew he would know the answer to this question.

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Uniswap was the ETH 1. Sushi

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was the Solana 1. So we got was a 16 zed. Right?

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I don't know. They're like, all a 16 z has them they're in all this shit.

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Okay. So

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there's probably 10 people listening to the show right now that don't know what a cold card is.

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Why don't

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why don't you tell those 10 people what a cold card is and why it exists?

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Okay.

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So computers

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are not meant to hold secrets

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as we all know. You know? You're you're there watching your favorite adult entertainment

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in the same computer as you're doing your life

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wealth,

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managing.

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Not a great idea to do it in the same environment, so we came up with with a device

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that can do that separately

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in a safe environment.

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And,

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that's essentially it. It's just a device for you to to do all your secret managing

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outside of your computer.

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So awesome. Okay.

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I think you made that unnecessarily complicated, but it's a way to securely hold Bitcoin. Matt, you are you are the podcaster here. I I am just, I am just, my podcast is not as successful as yours. So you you're the guy that can explain these things more clearly.

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Thank you for that.

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I

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I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm stuck reading the comments right now. Thank you all for joining the live chat.

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Kidwarp,

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is watching on Nostor TV, which is a new Apple TV app.

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So you can watch the Zap stream on your big screen television.

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Feel like

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that's big development. Pub, fifteen sixty three said, cold card is where cypherpunk stored their future. I I like that.

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It is very cypherpunky.

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Where did he say that?

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I mean, maybe my comments are slower, but if you Oh, it's the it's Bugle. It's the Bugle.

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Would you like the do you like the Bugle Boys?

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They're they're funny sometimes.

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I think I mean, I think they're great.

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Best journalist in the space. I mean, I really like your article about the the big bang.

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Anyways, long story. Go ahead.

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Coldcard.

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So, I mean, I I think your explanation is partially because it started as a Bitcoin

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hardware signer, a way for you to securely hold Bitcoin and interact with it.

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And it's it's kind of

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slowly iterated into more than that. Right? I mean, you you just mentioned protecting other secrets.

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Yeah. So so How do you think about that? So so that's

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that's the thing. Like, the the premise really is the computer is unsafe. Right?

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And,

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you know, when you realize that and accept that you cannot have any secrets in a computer or a phone,

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you're just, you know, asking for those secrets to leak

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or at least privacy wise they leak,

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then then

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you come into this problem where, like, okay. Great. Wonderful. You know? Like, computer is not good. Okay. So then how do I

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perform,

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like, things that require security, right, like, in my everyday life? Right? Like, how do I, you know, store a very important password, or how do I,

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you know, store some very sensitive information?

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How do I cosign with somebody else on the Internet? You know, how do I help a family member set up their environment for Bitcoin? You know, like, you sort of, like, start to, like, expand on that. And, you know, if the computer is not there, it's like, what can I, as as a maker of a secure environment,

223
00:16:20.735 --> 00:16:22.435
you know, add in terms of features

224
00:16:23.055 --> 00:16:25.875
to to help that happen in a secure

225
00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:27.410
manner? Right?

226
00:16:28.430 --> 00:16:45.555
You know, we travel a lot more these days. A lot of people are becoming sort of, like, stateless. Right? They're becoming sovereign individuals, and they're they're, like, around the world. So they can't just, like, you know, go on their their new rental house in some country and bury, you know, a a metal seed anymore.

227
00:16:45.935 --> 00:16:46.915
You know, that that's

228
00:16:48.175 --> 00:16:50.910
there's a lot more considerations at play. Right?

229
00:16:51.550 --> 00:16:52.050
So,

230
00:16:52.829 --> 00:16:56.209
we we sort of, like, spend a lot of time brainstorming.

231
00:16:57.149 --> 00:16:59.009
You know, how how can we improve

232
00:16:59.310 --> 00:17:00.610
all these little scenarios?

233
00:17:01.550 --> 00:17:03.889
And and how can you do that those

234
00:17:04.395 --> 00:17:05.855
those sort of, actions,

235
00:17:06.635 --> 00:17:07.135
remotely,

236
00:17:07.515 --> 00:17:08.015
securely,

237
00:17:08.795 --> 00:17:09.935
and with some privacy,

238
00:17:10.795 --> 00:17:12.095
in adversary environments.

239
00:17:13.035 --> 00:17:13.435
And,

240
00:17:13.915 --> 00:17:20.140
you know, recently, we we launched the the key teleport feature. It's, I think, keyteleport.com,

241
00:17:20.840 --> 00:17:22.300
for the website for that.

242
00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:25.980
So for example, you can send secrets over a video call.

243
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.380
Yeah. Why don't you, go into that a little bit more,

244
00:17:33.095 --> 00:17:34.635
how that works? So

245
00:17:36.535 --> 00:17:38.075
think about it this way. Okay?

246
00:17:38.535 --> 00:17:44.475
You have you know the cold card is like a secure environment. Right? And I have one, and the person on the other side

247
00:17:44.855 --> 00:17:45.915
just got one.

248
00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:48.480
And

249
00:17:49.260 --> 00:17:52.080
if we have two secure environments and we don't trust

250
00:17:52.540 --> 00:17:54.080
the the middleman computer

251
00:17:54.700 --> 00:18:01.440
or or the or the the pipes, right, in between us, can we create a secure tunnel between the two devices,

252
00:18:01.900 --> 00:18:04.135
right, to send a piece of information?

253
00:18:06.034 --> 00:18:08.375
And and that was sort of, like, the premise. So

254
00:18:08.755 --> 00:18:09.895
with with key teleport,

255
00:18:10.434 --> 00:18:18.135
say, for example, you know, on the on the proverbial ephemeral grandmothers that don't exist that everybody wants to serve in Bitcoin,

256
00:18:18.510 --> 00:18:25.970
Let's say I have grandmother. Yeah. But but, you know, the Bitcoin grandmothers. Right? Like, we wanna set up a Bitcoin grandmother here with a with a harder wallet.

257
00:18:26.350 --> 00:18:41.695
So Well, you know, the key there is we're just gonna have to age into being grandparents, and then grandparents will use Bitcoin. Exactly. It's just a it's just a time thing. But, anyway, continue. Grandma grandma wants to use Bitcoin. Continue. Exactly. Right? So you ship her a cold card from the store, right, or directly.

258
00:18:42.715 --> 00:18:45.294
She opens the bag. Right? She checks the number,

259
00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:50.389
and she has a a Virgin sort of gold card in her hands. Right? She powers it on.

260
00:18:51.649 --> 00:18:54.870
She clicks on the key teleport feature on that side.

261
00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:56.549
You on your side

262
00:18:57.090 --> 00:19:00.309
have two options. Right? Like, you you can either set up a gold card yourself

263
00:19:00.645 --> 00:19:02.985
and just send her the backup

264
00:19:03.285 --> 00:19:16.720
with all the settings, including the PINs and everything to her, and her cold card just boots into this new key that you already backed up for her. That mode's like a it's like I'm cloning a cold card, but instead of doing it in person

265
00:19:17.120 --> 00:19:18.020
Yeah. It's remotely.

266
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.860
Or So in that situation, she's trusting me because I have

267
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.740
I have the secrets. I have the secrets. I have the secrets.

268
00:19:25.360 --> 00:19:33.375
You. There's in this scenario, we're sending her the secret. Right? Or, for example, say you wanna set up a bib 85 for her, right, off of your seed.

269
00:19:33.755 --> 00:19:36.015
Yeah. You know, you can you can beam that to her,

270
00:19:36.475 --> 00:19:40.815
and then boom. Her cold card uses that as the match the master secret. Right?

271
00:19:41.260 --> 00:19:43.040
And now she's all set to go.

272
00:19:43.420 --> 00:19:46.160
That's sort of like the Enco Gym kinda model. Right?

273
00:19:46.860 --> 00:19:49.760
Or for example, let's say, you know, you have a decentralized

274
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:52.559
team. Right? Like, nobody has an office anymore.

275
00:19:52.955 --> 00:19:54.575
And you need to send them,

276
00:19:55.275 --> 00:19:59.775
for example, SSH keys to access a server. Right? You can do that.

277
00:20:00.635 --> 00:20:03.455
Or password or something. Or passwords or Google Authenticator,

278
00:20:04.075 --> 00:20:04.575
backups.

279
00:20:05.195 --> 00:20:05.695
Right.

280
00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:14.300
You can send them like, really, like, any secret that's of reasonable size. Right? Like, it's Anything that's a text a text based secret.

281
00:20:15.080 --> 00:20:15.580
Exactly.

282
00:20:16.840 --> 00:20:24.695
And and and it's a pretty it's kind of like a game changer. You know? Like, because there there was no good way of doing this before.

283
00:20:25.475 --> 00:20:29.815
I mean, we spent, like, a good year trying to find a way of sending stuff to each other. We couldn't.

284
00:20:30.515 --> 00:20:32.534
And, so we went and built it.

285
00:20:33.690 --> 00:20:34.590
Wait. So

286
00:20:34.890 --> 00:20:36.510
is there a mode where

287
00:20:36.970 --> 00:20:39.390
so, like, forget about grandma because grandma

288
00:20:40.409 --> 00:20:41.870
is just buying MSTR.

289
00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:43.630
Grandmas don't exist.

290
00:20:44.250 --> 00:20:45.789
Yeah. Grandmas don't exist.

291
00:20:46.090 --> 00:20:48.270
But but I have a better example.

292
00:20:48.655 --> 00:20:54.755
Like, my high school friends or my college friends that know shit all about Bitcoin except that I've been talking about it forever.

293
00:20:57.135 --> 00:20:57.635
And

294
00:20:58.895 --> 00:21:02.995
and they're not technical, but they believe. They're believers, but they're not technical.

295
00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:05.840
Is there a way to use key teleport

296
00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:06.880
for me

297
00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:11.680
to do, like, a guided setup of theirs without having access to the secret

298
00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:13.200
or no?

299
00:21:13.820 --> 00:21:16.000
Oh, so you don't want them to see the secret?

300
00:21:16.605 --> 00:21:19.185
I just wanna do other settings for them and everything.

301
00:21:19.725 --> 00:21:22.785
Yeah. You can. You can. But I don't I don't want the seed.

302
00:21:23.325 --> 00:21:23.825
Right?

303
00:21:24.445 --> 00:21:33.190
No. There there is there's no. See, this is this is a a we don't have homomorphic encryption yet in in in the in the mathematical

304
00:21:33.570 --> 00:21:34.070
universe.

305
00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:35.750
So

306
00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:41.909
we can't guarantee we can't prove that we deleted something or we didn't see something that we had.

307
00:21:42.210 --> 00:22:00.759
There's no good way to But I'm not saying I'm not saying there's obviously still trust involved. Like, if I wanna scam them, I could scam them. But I'm Yeah. Is there a way Yes. Is because I haven't actually tested out the feature yet. Yeah. You can totally do it. So you you get a you get a a virgin one on your side. You set up you set up the seed. You set up all the things. Okay?

308
00:22:01.299 --> 00:22:09.880
Yeah. Set up the the settings and everything, and then you do a remote clone. And then you just delete from yours. And then I wipe? And then you wipe. Yes.

309
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:10.759
Yeah.

310
00:22:11.615 --> 00:22:12.115
Okay.

311
00:22:12.575 --> 00:22:13.394
That's reasonable.

312
00:22:16.815 --> 00:22:21.154
You added this other feature too, this cosigning service. You wanna talk about that?

313
00:22:21.534 --> 00:22:22.674
Yes. So,

314
00:22:25.230 --> 00:22:29.730
you know, most people who travel a lot and travel with needs of spending

315
00:22:30.190 --> 00:22:31.970
a a decent chunk of cash,

316
00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:34.450
in in BTC,

317
00:22:34.910 --> 00:22:36.690
they Like anyone who has a family.

318
00:22:37.405 --> 00:22:40.785
You know, it's tricky. Right? Like, you know,

319
00:22:41.725 --> 00:22:43.025
you can do with a passphrase,

320
00:22:43.885 --> 00:22:45.265
but then it's not provably

321
00:22:45.805 --> 00:22:52.385
that you, you know, you could get beaten into giving up the private the you know, giving up the the passphrase.

322
00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:53.300
So

323
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.500
what what is like, multisig is great. Right? Because multisig is provable on chain.

324
00:23:00.800 --> 00:23:02.020
Right? That is a multisig.

325
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:04.900
And

326
00:23:06.665 --> 00:23:16.445
it's also provable who spent if you have more than one person involved. Right? Because you know which key was the signing key or which quorum was the signing quorum.

327
00:23:16.985 --> 00:23:18.285
So we're like, okay. Great.

328
00:23:18.620 --> 00:23:22.320
Can we get the secure environment, which is the cold card, to be a cosigner?

329
00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:25.020
Right? And we're like, okay. Great.

330
00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:27.360
We can do that, but,

331
00:23:27.820 --> 00:23:35.135
you know, is the person gonna have to travel to devices? I'm like, no. That just sounds retarded. Right? So we're like, okay. Can we put

332
00:23:35.515 --> 00:23:37.934
one more seed into the device

333
00:23:39.355 --> 00:23:40.335
under a policy?

334
00:23:41.515 --> 00:23:42.015
So,

335
00:23:42.394 --> 00:23:43.695
with cold card cosign,

336
00:23:44.154 --> 00:23:46.015
what you can do is you can have

337
00:23:46.370 --> 00:23:47.990
a two or three, for example,

338
00:23:48.610 --> 00:23:54.310
and a single cold card would have two keys. One is the user key, right, your master secret.

339
00:23:55.250 --> 00:23:59.350
And that one, you can sign any amount, right, because it's your seed.

340
00:24:00.185 --> 00:24:04.125
The second seed, the cold card seed, is behind the policy.

341
00:24:05.065 --> 00:24:08.925
And that policy can be, you know, the limit to send,

342
00:24:09.865 --> 00:24:11.245
like, amount per day.

343
00:24:12.659 --> 00:24:15.480
You know, there's there's a bunch of it could be two FA authentication.

344
00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:19.880
It could be a bunch of different policies like a normal HSM would.

345
00:24:21.460 --> 00:24:21.960
And,

346
00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:26.840
what's cool about that one is that you cannot circumvent that key

347
00:24:27.515 --> 00:24:28.495
with your PIN.

348
00:24:29.434 --> 00:24:30.975
You can't circumvent the policy.

349
00:24:31.595 --> 00:24:33.135
So how do I change the policy?

350
00:24:33.595 --> 00:24:36.015
You have to give it the whole seed again.

351
00:24:38.075 --> 00:24:39.774
The seed the policy seed?

352
00:24:40.154 --> 00:24:40.654
Yes.

353
00:24:41.620 --> 00:24:49.080
Okay. So you leave that somewhere else. Exactly. So if you're traveling, you don't have the whole seed with you. You can't give it to the device in order to change

354
00:24:50.020 --> 00:24:57.025
the seed policy. And if you have the seed while you have the seed, now the policy doesn't matter. So Right. It's a really nice the purpose.

355
00:24:57.325 --> 00:24:57.825
Exactly.

356
00:24:59.405 --> 00:25:06.945
So the cosigner is actually on the same dev it's the the cosigning key is on the same device. Yes. I sold the travel wallet.

357
00:25:07.270 --> 00:25:09.610
And then, like, the third key is somewhere else

358
00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:11.210
Yes. As well.

359
00:25:11.510 --> 00:25:14.230
Yep. Somewhere secure, somewhere else. It's a backup PIN.

360
00:25:15.030 --> 00:25:15.690
Buried somewhere.

361
00:25:16.870 --> 00:25:21.290
Right. Buried in your last Airbnb. A coworker. Right? Like, this is the cool thing about business.

362
00:25:21.615 --> 00:25:28.915
It's like you can have a shared so, like, you can have two cold cards. Okay? Right. One of them has key a

363
00:25:29.375 --> 00:25:32.035
and cold card key. Let's call that key c.

364
00:25:32.735 --> 00:25:34.195
Okay? And then your co

365
00:25:34.495 --> 00:25:39.030
b. B Yeah. And the same cosigner key, both of them with policy.

366
00:25:40.770 --> 00:25:42.710
So now you know which one cosign

367
00:25:43.010 --> 00:25:50.310
with their own keys, that code card But either either can spend according to the policy Yes. I will. But if they wanna rug the whole amount,

368
00:25:51.044 --> 00:25:57.865
then they would need to ask their partner or whatever to sign. Exactly. So you can bypass it in case you need,

369
00:25:58.325 --> 00:26:00.664
for whatever reason. Pretty awesome. It is.

370
00:26:00.965 --> 00:26:03.065
And the cool thing is you can use key teleport

371
00:26:03.445 --> 00:26:08.210
to send that key to your coworker now to set up that code card key

372
00:26:09.070 --> 00:26:09.570
remotely.

373
00:26:11.150 --> 00:26:11.890
Got it.

374
00:26:12.990 --> 00:26:14.770
So you could actually I mean, in

375
00:26:15.310 --> 00:26:17.410
the in the grandma mode, you could

376
00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:21.490
you could do this, and then grandma can't accidentally rug herself either.

377
00:26:22.115 --> 00:26:26.935
Yes. Because she wouldn't she would need you. She would need you to sign with the third key. Yes.

378
00:26:28.275 --> 00:26:39.150
So you could set up grandma's cold card so, like, she can only spend a hundred dollars a day or whatever. But, actually, it probably works better. It's better for kids. Right? Yeah. Kids, you could, like, literally set up a spending limit.

379
00:26:41.210 --> 00:26:42.830
Well, I I know

380
00:26:43.530 --> 00:26:47.710
I I I know your wife well, and I don't think she would tolerate that, but

381
00:26:49.665 --> 00:26:51.765
I I know I know mine wouldn't.

382
00:26:52.305 --> 00:26:57.925
Mine mine is a very reasonable woman. She would probably say, please put this on the thing so that I don't get robbed.

383
00:27:00.820 --> 00:27:04.120
I had a I had a buddy who you strike has,

384
00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:08.040
strike has

385
00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:15.160
real time transfers to bank account, like, just instant. Like, by the time you open your bank app, it's already in the bank account,

386
00:27:15.745 --> 00:27:24.164
And his his wife discovered it and just instantly sold to the bank account. And he was like, can you ask Jack to slow down the process? It's going it goes too fast.

387
00:27:26.625 --> 00:27:27.284
Got it.

388
00:27:28.090 --> 00:27:28.590
Okay.

389
00:27:29.290 --> 00:27:31.150
So those two new features are awesome.

390
00:27:31.850 --> 00:27:32.350
Now

391
00:27:32.730 --> 00:27:34.750
what this presents though is

392
00:27:35.370 --> 00:27:38.910
it's interesting. So I love my cold cars. I think cold car is awesome.

393
00:27:40.565 --> 00:27:42.185
I think at this point,

394
00:27:43.365 --> 00:27:45.465
it's probably good to give the disclaimer

395
00:27:45.925 --> 00:27:46.745
since we're

396
00:27:47.125 --> 00:27:48.825
twenty seven minutes into the show

397
00:27:49.365 --> 00:27:51.145
that MVK is a friend,

398
00:27:51.525 --> 00:27:52.585
very close friend.

399
00:27:53.149 --> 00:27:55.010
He's a sponsor of Rabbit Hole Recap.

400
00:27:56.029 --> 00:27:58.130
And, ten thirty one is the exclusive

401
00:27:58.510 --> 00:27:59.570
external investor

402
00:27:59.870 --> 00:28:02.610
in CoinKite besides him and his partner,

403
00:28:04.669 --> 00:28:06.370
and one other angel, I believe.

404
00:28:06.830 --> 00:28:07.570
We're the

405
00:28:08.635 --> 00:28:12.095
we're the only fund that's that's invested in CoinKite. So

406
00:28:12.635 --> 00:28:20.575
there's the disclosure, but that's also because I believe it's the best in class product. It didn't go the opposite way, but I'm sure there's people that will

407
00:28:21.850 --> 00:28:22.990
expect that regardless.

408
00:28:23.530 --> 00:28:24.030
Yeah.

409
00:28:26.570 --> 00:28:26.970
I,

410
00:28:27.610 --> 00:28:29.870
so I love cold. I I think it's

411
00:28:30.410 --> 00:28:40.365
by far the best You've tried the Push TX. Right? You you've been using Push TX. Well, that's where I was going. So okay. So why don't you explain what Push t x is?

412
00:28:40.825 --> 00:28:41.325
So,

413
00:28:42.265 --> 00:28:49.485
you know, like, all hardware wallets, all of them. Right? You load the transaction somehow in some annoying way, right, generally speaking.

414
00:28:50.500 --> 00:28:55.720
And then and then you press sign you review on the screen or you press sign. Okay. All of them,

415
00:28:56.420 --> 00:28:58.360
you know, you have to either plug on the USB

416
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:03.559
or you have to do the micro SD card or you have to try to show your

417
00:29:04.015 --> 00:29:07.075
your cold card screen to the computer garbage camera.

418
00:29:07.775 --> 00:29:09.315
I mean, it's a pain in the ass. Right?

419
00:29:09.855 --> 00:29:23.310
Well, it's no. It really is. Like, you know, all of them suck. So that Yeah. You actually send Bitcoin transactions, it it it is a pain in the ass. I mean, like, for people who use it, you know. Right? So, like, so what we did is we we essentially, like, you know,

420
00:29:24.330 --> 00:29:31.470
hijacked the the the NFC technology to just work in our favor here with a little hack where the cold card builds

421
00:29:32.515 --> 00:29:33.815
a transaction URL,

422
00:29:34.995 --> 00:29:35.735
in NFC,

423
00:29:37.635 --> 00:29:38.135
and

424
00:29:38.515 --> 00:29:40.675
with either mempool.space

425
00:29:40.675 --> 00:29:42.595
or coldcard.com

426
00:29:42.595 --> 00:29:46.775
or your own node, you just tap your phone and the transaction just goes.

427
00:29:47.330 --> 00:29:59.190
Like, it it just, poof, broadcast it. Right? So it it it is anybody who says that it's hard to use or how to well, it's hard to use. It's an absolute fucking liar because they just haven't tried

428
00:29:59.524 --> 00:30:03.384
to scan a transaction on a cold card from Sparrow,

429
00:30:04.404 --> 00:30:07.144
a press sign, and then tap their phone. Like,

430
00:30:07.924 --> 00:30:11.225
it is easier and faster than logging in into online banking.

431
00:30:13.284 --> 00:30:14.345
Oh, yeah. I mean,

432
00:30:15.300 --> 00:30:19.160
Bitcoin really breaks every like, it breaks everything else. Because once you do it

433
00:30:19.540 --> 00:30:21.640
Mhmm. It doesn't even matter if

434
00:30:22.580 --> 00:30:28.280
if you think you might get better gains somewhere else. It's just the freedom to just No. But but it's so frictionlessly

435
00:30:28.660 --> 00:30:39.005
transact is You know, like, you try to look into your bank and, oh, now we don't believe it's you. Please send a text message to this. You type the fucking seg text message. You try to send this. There's a limit.

436
00:30:39.785 --> 00:30:43.725
But so this is where my my question was going before you cut me off.

437
00:30:46.010 --> 00:30:46.330
I,

438
00:30:47.370 --> 00:30:57.470
I think the problem so in this flow in the Push TX flow is actually it's just very clean. This is how you can visualize it. You set up you set up the transaction in your app,

439
00:30:58.015 --> 00:31:00.355
whether that's Sparrow on the computer or

440
00:31:01.215 --> 00:31:02.595
or some mobile app.

441
00:31:03.615 --> 00:31:12.275
We have we have friends working on Cove Wallet, which I think is gonna be great on mobile. But you set it up on app. You scan the QR code with

442
00:31:12.580 --> 00:31:13.400
your cold

443
00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:18.440
card, you press sign you check the details of the transaction so you make sure you aren't

444
00:31:19.380 --> 00:31:24.840
getting scammed, you sign it, and then at that point, you just tap it to your phone as broadcast. Super simple UX,

445
00:31:25.300 --> 00:31:26.120
very easy.

446
00:31:26.635 --> 00:31:35.135
Also, setting up a cold card, you can set one up without a computer. Very easy. Just, like, press go go go go go, and then, like, you have, like, a secure seat.

447
00:31:35.674 --> 00:31:36.895
The problem is

448
00:31:37.275 --> 00:31:43.210
and it I don't know if it's necessarily a problem. It's the reason I love cold card is that there's just so many different features and capabilities,

449
00:31:44.070 --> 00:31:52.169
but there's there's a fascination. There's a there's, like, a an issue that people have in their heads that because there's so many ways to use it,

450
00:31:53.515 --> 00:32:03.615
it overwhelms them even though there is effectively a simple mode. Like, they could just ignore all those features, and it'd be one of the easiest wallets to use. But because those features exist,

451
00:32:04.315 --> 00:32:07.054
in their head, it's complicated. Is that We hide everything

452
00:32:07.355 --> 00:32:10.840
behind yeah, we hide everything behind advanced mode. But, like,

453
00:32:11.220 --> 00:32:15.240
I think part of the problem with that is the like, a lot of our competitors,

454
00:32:16.820 --> 00:32:19.480
they don't have the security. They don't have the features.

455
00:32:19.860 --> 00:32:24.635
So what they came up with is this narrative. The code card is great, but it's harder to use,

456
00:32:24.935 --> 00:32:27.115
you know, which is absolute fucking bullshit.

457
00:32:28.775 --> 00:32:34.315
You know, like, it is actually easier. It's just that you don't have to use any of the features if you don't want to.

458
00:32:35.269 --> 00:32:47.769
The it doesn't even present when you set up a code card, it doesn't even present you all the features. Right? Like, it it's all very simple on what's available. You have to go into advanced mode or something else in order to have access to those things.

459
00:32:49.514 --> 00:32:50.335
But we believe

460
00:32:50.955 --> 00:32:57.615
in in having, like it's like it's like having, like, a a quality off road Toyota. You know? There's a lot of buttons there. You don't have to use anything.

461
00:32:58.154 --> 00:33:04.050
It's good off the shelf. But, hey, if you get stuck in the mud, you press a button getting you out of mud, and it does.

462
00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:07.910
I'm hearing your Apple notification

463
00:33:08.290 --> 00:33:10.790
ring for what it's worth. It's my wife,

464
00:33:11.650 --> 00:33:14.310
telling me that they can hear me from from outside.

465
00:33:14.850 --> 00:33:15.350
Amazing.

466
00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:18.710
Okay.

467
00:33:20.235 --> 00:33:22.015
For what it's worth, Freaks, I,

468
00:33:22.635 --> 00:33:24.735
MVK requested audio only,

469
00:33:25.195 --> 00:33:28.415
but I can see his video, and he's he's shirtless right now.

470
00:33:29.595 --> 00:33:32.655
And I can confirm that he is moving. I see him moving.

471
00:33:34.490 --> 00:33:35.950
Friks, if you have questions

472
00:33:36.650 --> 00:33:37.390
for MBK,

473
00:33:38.970 --> 00:33:41.870
put them in the live chat, and we will get to them.

474
00:33:46.424 --> 00:33:52.365
I he does not appear like he's ready yet. I think he's ready. I'm here. I'm here. Is that a bathroom?

475
00:33:53.625 --> 00:33:54.125
No.

476
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.220
He angled the camera up when I asked him that.

477
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:01.400
I

478
00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:05.660
very nice. Very nice.

479
00:34:06.520 --> 00:34:08.940
Do you think part of it is because you don't have an app?

480
00:34:10.265 --> 00:34:10.985
I I think

481
00:34:12.505 --> 00:34:17.005
but the you know, so this is the problem. Right? The I've tried all the apps, right,

482
00:34:17.705 --> 00:34:19.485
of, like, real hardware wallets,

483
00:34:20.105 --> 00:34:25.440
not the, like, combination things or semi custodial, whatever. Like, I'm talking about, like, real.

484
00:34:26.720 --> 00:34:35.060
And and it's actually not easier. Like, you know, like, say for example, Ledger, right, which is really is, like, the the the biggest selling hardware wallet in the market.

485
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.300
You know, to sync that device to the Bluetooth and all that shit,

486
00:34:39.680 --> 00:34:41.060
like, it's not easier.

487
00:34:44.855 --> 00:34:46.235
It's a narrative problem.

488
00:34:46.935 --> 00:34:48.635
But, I mean, the ledger is

489
00:34:49.415 --> 00:34:52.395
actually incredibly complicated to use. It's fair.

490
00:34:53.175 --> 00:34:56.395
I mean, and part of the reason is that they have all the Shitcoin support.

491
00:34:57.270 --> 00:34:57.770
I

492
00:34:59.190 --> 00:34:59.910
saw in

493
00:35:01.350 --> 00:35:03.690
I saw on your Nasr bio

494
00:35:03.990 --> 00:35:07.050
that you say you have strong opinions loosely held.

495
00:35:09.590 --> 00:35:12.250
I don't actually think that's true. I've never actually

496
00:35:12.695 --> 00:35:15.595
I've you you seem to have strong opinions strongly held.

497
00:35:16.855 --> 00:35:18.635
But one of your strong opinions

498
00:35:18.935 --> 00:35:19.435
is

499
00:35:19.815 --> 00:35:20.315
about,

500
00:35:20.935 --> 00:35:21.595
the Bitkey.

501
00:35:22.055 --> 00:35:27.435
So I'm kinda curious, like, what your thoughts are on their trade off model because I actually

502
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:40.260
I I think that's a perfect example of an app that is incredibly the the app really adds to the user experience on the hardware side. Like, it makes it really, really easy to use.

503
00:35:40.575 --> 00:35:43.315
The setup is fucking flawless. Like, there's no way

504
00:35:44.255 --> 00:35:50.195
that my high school friends will fuck that up. Like, I know that they won't accidentally wreck themselves if they do that.

505
00:35:51.214 --> 00:35:57.990
So, you know, disclaimer. I was, like, helping them like, giving them a lot of, like, advice when they were building it.

506
00:35:59.569 --> 00:36:01.670
So so I think the problem is this.

507
00:36:02.690 --> 00:36:12.035
It is not a sovereign solution. Right? Like, it is not a hardware wallet, and it was not originally advertised as a hardware wallet. You know? It is

508
00:36:12.895 --> 00:36:14.355
a kinda like semi custodial,

509
00:36:14.815 --> 00:36:15.315
noncustodial,

510
00:36:16.655 --> 00:36:17.155
preparatory

511
00:36:18.175 --> 00:36:19.395
system by a Pubco.

512
00:36:20.415 --> 00:36:20.915
Right?

513
00:36:22.255 --> 00:36:23.555
It it is incredibly

514
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:25.740
amazing system,

515
00:36:26.200 --> 00:36:30.380
and and it's, like, a hundred x better than people having coins on Coinbase.

516
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:34.380
But it's not a sovereign solution. And I think, like,

517
00:36:34.680 --> 00:36:35.740
the problem is,

518
00:36:37.575 --> 00:36:39.435
you know, their marketing department

519
00:36:40.455 --> 00:36:48.155
sort of, like, saw that, you know, maybe they need to use hardware wallet language, and they're gonna get beat up on that. It's not a hardware wallet. It doesn't have a screen.

520
00:36:48.455 --> 00:36:49.835
It doesn't talk PSVT.

521
00:36:50.900 --> 00:36:53.560
You know, it's you have to use their app with it.

522
00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:56.200
You know? They could fuck you.

523
00:36:58.100 --> 00:36:59.480
There's privacy concerns.

524
00:37:00.020 --> 00:37:08.335
The app, you know, can be open source, but you don't know what's running on the on the device I'm sorry, on the phone. You know, you don't know what's running on the servers.

525
00:37:09.035 --> 00:37:11.214
It's it's like a pile of trust me,

526
00:37:11.835 --> 00:37:15.454
which, again and I keep on saying this. It's like, it is a fantastic

527
00:37:15.994 --> 00:37:18.330
improvement over Custodial Bitcoin.

528
00:37:18.890 --> 00:37:24.030
And I think that if your choice is between Custodial Bekwoy and Bekwoy, absolutely get a Bekwoy.

529
00:37:26.890 --> 00:37:28.350
Do you think it's it's

530
00:37:29.130 --> 00:37:35.135
reasonable to consider it a a solid first device, and then you move on to something like a cold card

531
00:37:35.855 --> 00:37:37.315
Yes. But I afterwards?

532
00:37:37.695 --> 00:37:45.555
But I can't I can't trust them anymore, their marketing, because that's not like, they literally are telling people to just go into that and stay on that,

533
00:37:45.950 --> 00:37:46.450
which

534
00:37:46.910 --> 00:37:48.049
is very unethical.

535
00:37:50.670 --> 00:37:53.730
So, I mean, is that your so your biggest issue is messaging?

536
00:37:55.309 --> 00:38:01.329
Yeah. I mean, you know, like, if they get people off of that as soon as people are able to learn,

537
00:38:02.165 --> 00:38:05.865
I think it's a it's a reasonable device for people to go to.

538
00:38:06.165 --> 00:38:11.305
But, you know, what I see coming from them is the opposite of that. It's it's further

539
00:38:12.965 --> 00:38:16.080
going into the space where it's like, look. We're a hardware wallet

540
00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:17.060
and,

541
00:38:17.680 --> 00:38:21.860
you know, and and, you know, like, sort of, like kinda like lying about the trade offs.

542
00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:27.620
I think it's it's not a great thing. And, you know, as as you know, in in Bitcoin adversarial

543
00:38:28.415 --> 00:38:30.115
environment for products and services,

544
00:38:30.655 --> 00:38:32.435
you know, we call the bullshit out.

545
00:38:33.455 --> 00:38:35.155
I that's the best part about Bitcoin.

546
00:38:35.695 --> 00:38:36.915
We're our best critics.

547
00:38:40.095 --> 00:38:43.395
Okay. That was a little bit of a tangent. But, I mean, I just

548
00:38:44.330 --> 00:38:45.870
What do you think about it, man?

549
00:38:46.650 --> 00:38:53.310
I fucking love the big key. But, I mean, I think actions speak louder than words. I would never use a big key to hold my own Bitcoin.

550
00:38:54.970 --> 00:38:59.150
But I love it as an onboarding tool. Like, I've been giving it.

551
00:38:59.775 --> 00:39:04.035
I I gave a bunch as Christmas gifts. I was literally the first cheerleader.

552
00:39:05.295 --> 00:39:14.515
But but the thing is is, like, I don't think I mean, I think the freaks understand this. Right? Because the the freaks are often in my similar shoes,

553
00:39:15.160 --> 00:39:17.420
which is we want our friends and family

554
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:19.420
to

555
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:23.340
stay on bone stack sets. We want them to accumulate real Bitcoin.

556
00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:31.875
And that's because we care about them, but it's also because in ten years, like, I don't wanna have to take care of them. I would I would rather them take care of themselves.

557
00:39:33.055 --> 00:39:35.234
And the trade off for that historically

558
00:39:35.535 --> 00:39:36.355
has been

559
00:39:37.375 --> 00:39:40.115
I onboard them to, like, a cold card or something,

560
00:39:40.974 --> 00:39:42.194
and then I'm just

561
00:39:42.869 --> 00:39:45.369
DDoSed with questions and issues

562
00:39:45.750 --> 00:39:55.750
and con and, like, then they forget about it for two years. Bitcoin's up, like, 15 x, and they reach out. They're like, I just got rugged. I can't I'm they're, like, panic attacking. You know? Like, I'm, like, in the middle of, like

563
00:39:57.005 --> 00:40:06.625
I'm, like, in the middle of family dinner or something, and they're like, I've lost all my Bitcoin just, like, straight panic attack. Right? The first thing you have to say is, like, take a deep breath. You're probably fine.

564
00:40:07.085 --> 00:40:12.849
And then you, like, walk them through the whole process. Like, Bitkey fixes that. Like, I don't need to deal with

565
00:40:14.190 --> 00:40:15.569
like, I'm pretty sure

566
00:40:18.029 --> 00:40:20.849
like, you could be one of the dumbest people in the world,

567
00:40:21.390 --> 00:40:23.490
and you could relatively securely

568
00:40:25.095 --> 00:40:28.875
use Bitkey and never message me with questions or issues.

569
00:40:29.175 --> 00:40:32.635
So so here's here's where things start to sort of hit a snag.

570
00:40:33.815 --> 00:40:34.135
It's,

571
00:40:34.695 --> 00:40:38.315
first of all, now they just essentially never gonna learn

572
00:40:38.855 --> 00:40:39.675
about Bitcoin.

573
00:40:40.290 --> 00:40:41.430
Well, no. They might.

574
00:40:41.730 --> 00:40:44.210
Yeah. But But it's more likely that if they own iBit

575
00:40:44.930 --> 00:40:46.630
Yeah. But Or you know? MSTR.

576
00:40:47.090 --> 00:40:56.625
Yeah. But yeah. I know. Those people are sort of hopeless too. But but, you know, like, I don't wanna send people. If I'm actually sending someone to something, I want them to learn. Right?

577
00:40:57.965 --> 00:41:00.785
The other problem is, you know, pub calls go away,

578
00:41:01.405 --> 00:41:05.905
right, and it's a proprietary system. So you're gonna have to recover that in a secure computer,

579
00:41:07.645 --> 00:41:10.225
and and people are gonna lose their coins that way.

580
00:41:12.900 --> 00:41:17.960
You know, it's, like, it's very counter to the Bitcoin way of doing things to create proprietary systems

581
00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:23.079
that are not interchangeable with other

582
00:41:23.780 --> 00:41:24.760
Bitcoin vendors.

583
00:41:25.220 --> 00:41:27.000
It's a terrible fucking premise.

584
00:41:27.585 --> 00:41:30.244
There's there's definitely a trust element

585
00:41:31.265 --> 00:41:32.484
in terms of,

586
00:41:35.025 --> 00:41:37.445
you know, I mean, not even just Block leaving,

587
00:41:37.825 --> 00:41:42.165
like Block going out of business, but but them phasing out the Bitkey product line.

588
00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:50.710
Yeah. I mean, PubCo's get taken over by other companies all the time. Right? Like, I mean, if there is one thing we don't wanna trust, it's PubCo's. It's kinda like the point of billing.

589
00:41:51.730 --> 00:41:56.869
But, I mean, from my point of view, I like, yes. There's trust there, but I do trust

590
00:41:57.285 --> 00:42:03.704
that that team will have a if there was an exit, there'd be a graceful exit. Like, I don't think they would let it go, like,

591
00:42:04.244 --> 00:42:13.590
into complete chaos mode. I don't know, man. Like, you know, Twitter got taken over, right, like, in a in a flash, and then, you know, like, a bunch of products got

592
00:42:13.970 --> 00:42:15.430
cut off. Right? Like, Google

593
00:42:16.610 --> 00:42:18.790
phases out their products all the fucking time.

594
00:42:19.570 --> 00:42:31.585
Right? Or they rug people in the products too. Google's Google's really bad about it. Right. No. But it's just, like, the point I think, like, the main point is this. Right? Like, we love the team there, and and and I think that's the wrong sort of, like,

595
00:42:32.444 --> 00:42:38.944
way of thinking about it. It's like, I I like what they're doing. I like the team there. I think the problem that I have is this idea of

596
00:42:40.100 --> 00:42:40.920
the trust

597
00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:43.800
and and sort of, like, depending on that trust.

598
00:42:44.260 --> 00:42:48.520
If this is a long term device, it should be trust minimized.

599
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:53.700
But you don't think there's a a place in the market for

600
00:42:54.285 --> 00:43:07.440
Well, there absolutely is. That has more trust. Well, it absolutely is. I I I love the device in the market. I just think that they need to do a better job at pushing people away from it after they get the people on it. What if they had

601
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:10.020
what are your thoughts if they had, like,

602
00:43:13.839 --> 00:43:15.859
if they released a more secure device

603
00:43:16.720 --> 00:43:18.500
that The device is very secure.

604
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:26.615
That had, like, a screen and was more sovereign and moved people down a path. Would you be happier with that or PSBTs with seeds?

605
00:43:28.435 --> 00:43:29.895
I mean, I don't know. I'm just

606
00:43:30.275 --> 00:43:36.720
it's it's it's not it's not effective having it. Matt. Like, security, I I think, is, like, the wrong sort of, like, a,

607
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:42.580
thing to bang on because, like, it's actually fairly secure. Like, they they did a very good job on on a lot of that.

608
00:43:43.520 --> 00:43:45.860
The the trust it's it's the trust

609
00:43:46.185 --> 00:43:49.245
and and and the the primitives are non interdependent

610
00:43:49.785 --> 00:43:50.685
with other vendors.

611
00:43:51.225 --> 00:43:53.405
So you're stuck Right. In your system.

612
00:43:54.505 --> 00:43:57.165
And you have to make a single transaction out too.

613
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:02.300
Merge all the z t x cells into a single one to get out.

614
00:44:03.560 --> 00:44:06.540
Yeah. I mean, you have to well, not not necessarily.

615
00:44:08.040 --> 00:44:10.140
I mean, you could send them individually. Right?

616
00:44:10.485 --> 00:44:23.545
I I don't know. I think you have to consolidate the whole thing, the single transaction out on Sparrow to recover or something. Oh, the oh, the emergency break glass mode? Yeah. It's one single it's just one single transaction. They also don't have coin control.

617
00:44:24.710 --> 00:44:43.224
But once again, I just don't think that's anyway, I don't think that's necessarily the market for I'm literally I have two BitKeys inbox right here, and I have two gold cards inbox sitting on top of each other. So I I think I just wanna reiterate. I love what they're doing. Like, that's not the point. The the point is just, like, the the messaging. It's not what they're doing.

618
00:44:44.005 --> 00:44:44.505
Okay.

619
00:44:45.444 --> 00:44:46.984
Anyway, that was a long tangent.

620
00:44:47.845 --> 00:44:51.785
Cold card queue. You so you have two main cold card devices.

621
00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:55.400
You have the the queue and the m k four.

622
00:44:55.700 --> 00:44:59.000
The m k four looks like a calculator. The queue looks like a BlackBerry.

623
00:44:59.780 --> 00:45:02.680
Some of our listeners might not know what a BlackBerry is.

624
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:15.065
It was an old type of phone that existed on the show, man. Everybody is, older on your show. You don't have any young people who listen to it. No. No. No. That's just Marty. Marty is hating on the Zoomers. We have so many Zoomers.

625
00:45:16.805 --> 00:45:19.865
I've after he did it too, I, like, I started

626
00:45:21.579 --> 00:45:23.760
inviting Zoomers on the show and,

627
00:45:24.859 --> 00:45:25.359
just,

628
00:45:26.700 --> 00:45:33.200
like, many, many people blew up my phone. And a lot of them are I mean, the entire Bitcoin Policy Institute team is Zoomers.

629
00:45:34.515 --> 00:45:38.775
Everyone that works at Bitcoin Magazine Zoomers, you know, Dylan LeClaire, whatnot.

630
00:45:39.875 --> 00:45:43.335
I think Mallers might be classified as a Zoomer. He's, like, close.

631
00:45:43.875 --> 00:45:45.335
I mean, he works a goodie.

632
00:45:46.035 --> 00:45:48.730
We have many Zoomers among us. Arsh from,

633
00:45:49.370 --> 00:45:55.710
HRF, he's a Zoomer. There's so many Zoomers. We have the best Zoomers. Format with, like, a third person. It's been entertaining.

634
00:45:56.810 --> 00:46:00.590
I'm glad you like it. We're trying to spice it up after seven years of marriage.

635
00:46:02.555 --> 00:46:05.855
Okay. So you distracted me. We have,

636
00:46:06.235 --> 00:46:08.655
cold card queue, cold card MK four.

637
00:46:10.955 --> 00:46:14.895
I guess some people think, like, it's just strictly the queue is the better device.

638
00:46:15.309 --> 00:46:20.289
It's the same. Think of it that way. So what how do you how do you think about these two different

639
00:46:20.589 --> 00:46:25.170
products, and how should people think about them? So so think about the Q as, like, the,

640
00:46:25.630 --> 00:46:26.930
like, the the bulky

641
00:46:27.975 --> 00:46:32.715
guy with, like, lots of features, and then the Mark four is the same

642
00:46:33.095 --> 00:46:33.595
architecture,

643
00:46:33.975 --> 00:46:34.795
same security,

644
00:46:35.655 --> 00:46:37.515
but it's, like, a lot more compact.

645
00:46:37.815 --> 00:46:38.315
Right?

646
00:46:39.415 --> 00:46:39.915
So,

647
00:46:40.390 --> 00:46:46.810
you know, I I really like Mark four's for I lost you. I can't hear you now. Oh, could you hear me now?

648
00:46:47.510 --> 00:46:49.530
Now I can hear you. That was weird.

649
00:46:49.910 --> 00:46:50.410
So

650
00:46:50.869 --> 00:46:56.704
so yeah. So so the the Mark four is sort of like the it's the same architecture, same security as the Q.

651
00:46:58.125 --> 00:47:04.625
The Q is sort of like this the bulkier device that has all the features. It has a lot of bells and whistles that can do a lot of things.

652
00:47:05.165 --> 00:47:07.345
But because the mark four has the same security

653
00:47:07.790 --> 00:47:09.170
and is nice and compact,

654
00:47:10.270 --> 00:47:13.330
you can use the mark four for, you know, like,

655
00:47:14.109 --> 00:47:19.970
things that you don't use every day or for backups or for key generation for other purposes.

656
00:47:20.765 --> 00:47:34.385
You know, it's sort of like a a handier device. So, for example, if you have to stick, you know, in a safe deposit box or hide it somewhere, you know, you can have, like, five mark fours. They'll take, like, the, you know, the same space as maybe a queue and a half. You know?

657
00:47:35.690 --> 00:47:39.790
So that that's sort of, like, the difference. The the devices are the same security.

658
00:47:40.170 --> 00:47:41.470
We like both of them.

659
00:47:41.930 --> 00:47:45.710
The mark four also has the HSM mode. The queue doesn't.

660
00:47:46.410 --> 00:47:47.390
Why is that?

661
00:47:47.925 --> 00:47:48.425
So

662
00:47:49.605 --> 00:47:53.945
there's a bit of a memory concern. Right? As we add more features, there's a memory limitation.

663
00:47:54.885 --> 00:47:56.025
Okay. But, also,

664
00:47:56.405 --> 00:48:02.985
you know, the the queue is a is a device designed to be in your hand to do daily operations. Right? Where the mark four,

665
00:48:03.339 --> 00:48:06.000
you know, is tiny. You can stick it inside the server,

666
00:48:07.819 --> 00:48:13.200
and and you can use it over USB better, and and it's sort of, like, designed for that. So

667
00:48:13.500 --> 00:48:15.520
that's that's sort of, like, the the breakout,

668
00:48:16.125 --> 00:48:23.825
in terms of, like, how Is that the only feature that the mark four has that the queue doesn't have? Because usually it goes the opposite way. Right? Like, the queue obviously has QR codes

669
00:48:24.525 --> 00:48:25.585
and a full keyboard.

670
00:48:27.085 --> 00:48:30.030
The mark four can show QR codes, but doesn't have a camera.

671
00:48:30.750 --> 00:48:32.930
Right. It can't scan them. Yes.

672
00:48:34.830 --> 00:48:43.825
So is the plan to keep both of those form factors alive going forward? Or Absolutely. Yes. I we we love both. We use both on internally as well.

673
00:48:44.765 --> 00:48:49.424
We we like to have the sort of, like, two paths, especially and we were very careful

674
00:48:50.365 --> 00:48:58.279
on how we design it so that we could share the the cold base and not sort of, like, spread ourselves too thin with too much cold base to to audit.

675
00:48:58.740 --> 00:49:01.640
The Mark four was sort of, like, you know, forged in battle.

676
00:49:02.660 --> 00:49:05.799
Yeah. And, we wanted to continue with that architecture.

677
00:49:06.420 --> 00:49:07.559
We really like it.

678
00:49:08.900 --> 00:49:10.200
Yeah. I mean, I think,

679
00:49:11.375 --> 00:49:13.954
I mean, I definitely use my Mark fours more

680
00:49:14.734 --> 00:49:15.714
than my Qs.

681
00:49:16.415 --> 00:49:17.635
I'm a Q guy

682
00:49:18.095 --> 00:49:22.515
for most because they're I mean, they're smaller. They're just easier to

683
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.140
It's like I don't know. Yeah. I just I really like the

684
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:35.900
the the the the trip the double a batteries or triple a triple a batteries. Yeah. I mean, that's a big difference.

685
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:38.085
I I I'm a fan of that.

686
00:49:38.484 --> 00:49:53.065
But I I mean, I've now that you moved to USB like, I'm living a USB c lifestyle. Like, I refuse to have any products that don't have USB c, so it's like I can always find power for it. But the thing is, I'm that person who goes and scratches the USB line on my code cards.

687
00:49:53.685 --> 00:49:54.800
Yeah. Fair enough.

688
00:49:59.820 --> 00:50:06.720
Fair enough. I mean, I I think they're they're both very complimentary to each other. And I think it's really cool. The clone feature, I will just say,

689
00:50:07.100 --> 00:50:09.600
the clone feature is awesome because you can

690
00:50:12.445 --> 00:50:22.075
you can have just an MK four and a queue that are cloned on the same Yes. Same settings, same seed, everything. I mean, that that was for not them.

691
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:27.740
Right? It's like, you know, imagine just how many cold cards we go through doing development,

692
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.780
how many we break and stuff. So, like, being able to clone devices

693
00:50:33.240 --> 00:50:35.420
was kind of, like, a biggie one for us.

694
00:50:36.425 --> 00:50:39.325
And and, like, having secure backups is really important.

695
00:50:41.305 --> 00:50:42.845
That is probably the most important.

696
00:50:43.305 --> 00:50:44.525
Do you see BRK?

697
00:50:45.385 --> 00:50:53.270
He he sent us 21,000 sats earlier, so I will answer any question that he asks. He's asking if there's anything public about the MK five or the q two

698
00:50:53.650 --> 00:50:54.789
that you wanna share.

699
00:50:55.250 --> 00:51:03.430
I mean, we're working on features right now. I I so hardware is always being worked on. Like, you know, we we end one, we start the next one.

700
00:51:04.685 --> 00:51:09.665
There is no no timeline on mark five or q two at all yet,

701
00:51:11.005 --> 00:51:14.865
so don't even sort of, like, bother too much with that in your head

702
00:51:16.205 --> 00:51:16.705
because

703
00:51:18.230 --> 00:51:19.770
so normally in hardware,

704
00:51:21.510 --> 00:51:23.930
you are at the mercy of the lifetime

705
00:51:24.390 --> 00:51:25.849
of the chips you use.

706
00:51:26.390 --> 00:51:35.964
They they all have sort of, like, a end of life of, like, ten to twenty years, generally speaking. And then it becomes harder to sort of, like, get the chips and stuff. There's

707
00:51:36.345 --> 00:51:42.924
you know, sometimes they release new ones, and they make it hard for you to get the old lens to move you to the new ones. It's all sort of like a massive logistics.

708
00:51:43.385 --> 00:51:43.885
But

709
00:51:44.345 --> 00:51:45.325
the point is

710
00:51:46.310 --> 00:51:48.490
the current design is really good

711
00:51:48.950 --> 00:51:52.410
and and is really forged in battle. Like,

712
00:51:52.950 --> 00:51:58.170
I mean, boy, these devices have been attacked and and, like, by left, right, and center, and and

713
00:51:58.704 --> 00:52:02.405
they they've proven to sort of survive the needs we have.

714
00:52:03.665 --> 00:52:05.444
And they're fast enough.

715
00:52:06.385 --> 00:52:08.005
The chips are available enough.

716
00:52:08.944 --> 00:52:12.405
They went up a bit in price, but they're still, like, economically viable,

717
00:52:13.505 --> 00:52:14.005
that

718
00:52:14.410 --> 00:52:20.670
we don't wanna change the architecture if we don't have to because changing the architecture means you open yourself for new bugs.

719
00:52:21.290 --> 00:52:21.790
So

720
00:52:22.490 --> 00:52:24.430
we wanna stick with this for a while.

721
00:52:24.890 --> 00:52:28.830
And even if we did a refresh of either queue or mark,

722
00:52:29.955 --> 00:52:32.055
it would likely be on the same architecture.

723
00:52:33.155 --> 00:52:35.175
It would just be for other reasons.

724
00:52:35.475 --> 00:52:44.375
Well, like, the case would be different or something? Yeah. Case, screen, you know, NFC. So for some, Mark four could use better NFC. I mean, it's not as good as the Q. Right.

725
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:47.580
So things like that.

726
00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:49.980
But,

727
00:52:50.520 --> 00:52:53.900
I mean, like, there's so many devices on the market.

728
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:58.940
The mark four and the q, like, the amount of devices on the market is pretty insane.

729
00:52:59.480 --> 00:52:59.980
So

730
00:53:00.485 --> 00:53:06.585
we really wanna keep on supporting of, like, what's on the market and see if we can keep on adding more features, to this,

731
00:53:07.205 --> 00:53:07.705
specific,

732
00:53:08.405 --> 00:53:08.905
architecture.

733
00:53:12.005 --> 00:53:13.465
That makes sense to me.

734
00:53:15.839 --> 00:53:17.220
I wanna talk about,

735
00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:19.220
the trick pins

736
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:20.579
a little bit.

737
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:23.140
I think it's sneaky

738
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:25.539
one of the best features

739
00:53:25.839 --> 00:53:26.900
of cold card.

740
00:53:27.839 --> 00:53:30.260
How do you think about, the trick pins?

741
00:53:31.655 --> 00:53:32.555
Yeah. So

742
00:53:33.415 --> 00:53:39.675
that that goes back to our sort of, like, autistic way of looking at security. It's you know, we were like, okay. Great.

743
00:53:40.695 --> 00:53:43.195
You know, you can have a pin. The hardware wallet

744
00:53:43.770 --> 00:53:44.830
goes into operation.

745
00:53:45.450 --> 00:53:46.430
But what happens

746
00:53:47.050 --> 00:53:52.350
you know, if you don't want the hardware wallet to go into operation, then you have to type in the PIN.

747
00:53:54.090 --> 00:53:58.110
And and that sort of, like, went into the rabbit hole of, like, how can we

748
00:53:58.555 --> 00:54:00.335
have a lot of duress options?

749
00:54:02.715 --> 00:54:06.975
And, and and the more options you have, you'll also create more plausible deniability.

750
00:54:07.835 --> 00:54:08.335
So,

751
00:54:09.115 --> 00:54:12.735
you know, we have the the brick me pin that was born out of me

752
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:15.020
having to cross a border

753
00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:19.100
and having forgotten the device on me. So,

754
00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:21.580
you know, I had to go and delete

755
00:54:22.040 --> 00:54:28.744
the seed and then go trash the device and stuff, and I didn't wanna do that anymore. So in case that happen again, you can now break it.

756
00:54:30.244 --> 00:54:35.545
You know, there is the erase me. There is the the time out timer, super useful as well,

757
00:54:36.325 --> 00:54:39.145
especially in office environments. You can have the device

758
00:54:39.445 --> 00:54:40.105
sort of

759
00:54:40.484 --> 00:54:43.060
give out a timer as you put that pin

760
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:45.540
before it lets you go into operation.

761
00:54:47.040 --> 00:54:48.660
If you're familiar with banking

762
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:52.420
environments and, like, real physical safes, there's the delta mode.

763
00:54:53.200 --> 00:54:59.475
Well, and but just on the on the timer, Freaks Yeah. If if power's cut, the timer restarts.

764
00:54:59.935 --> 00:55:00.835
Just FYI.

765
00:55:02.015 --> 00:55:02.515
Yes.

766
00:55:02.975 --> 00:55:07.555
We have we have Yeah. You're talking about delta mode. What's delta mode?

767
00:55:08.255 --> 00:55:13.069
So so delta mode is you essentially do the delta of the first PIN.

768
00:55:15.130 --> 00:55:20.910
And what's cool about that is that that has a higher threshold of security on how the device works.

769
00:55:21.849 --> 00:55:25.390
K. I'm not gonna get into the weeds on how the secure element works. But

770
00:55:26.475 --> 00:55:27.455
on that pin,

771
00:55:28.795 --> 00:55:30.975
we can do a few more interesting things

772
00:55:31.435 --> 00:55:32.095
on on

773
00:55:32.875 --> 00:55:33.615
and remain

774
00:55:33.995 --> 00:55:35.055
fairly secure.

775
00:55:36.315 --> 00:55:37.775
Like, that that pin

776
00:55:38.635 --> 00:55:39.375
is not

777
00:55:39.675 --> 00:55:40.175
as

778
00:55:42.980 --> 00:55:45.080
susceptible to a a lab attack.

779
00:55:45.860 --> 00:55:50.440
Not that you can get into the other PINs through the lab, but you cannot find out about that PIN.

780
00:55:51.860 --> 00:55:53.880
Does that even exist? Exactly.

781
00:55:55.595 --> 00:55:58.255
And with that PIN, for example, we are able

782
00:55:59.355 --> 00:56:00.815
to hide or erase

783
00:56:01.515 --> 00:56:03.135
your seed vault

784
00:56:03.674 --> 00:56:06.095
or your secure notes or your passwords

785
00:56:06.875 --> 00:56:11.055
if you type that PIN. So maybe let's say, for example, you have a cold card that has,

786
00:56:11.930 --> 00:56:17.390
it's a multisig, so you don't care if somebody, you know, forces you to get in. Right? Because you can't cosign.

787
00:56:18.089 --> 00:56:19.069
Yeah. But

788
00:56:19.369 --> 00:56:23.470
on that same device, you happen to have, you know, important SSH keys

789
00:56:23.930 --> 00:56:25.470
or some secure notes,

790
00:56:27.275 --> 00:56:30.414
or you have a seed vault of your grandmother's seed.

791
00:56:32.234 --> 00:56:32.714
And,

792
00:56:33.115 --> 00:56:37.775
what you can do with the delta mode is, you know, you can type in that, and it will

793
00:56:39.210 --> 00:56:40.270
maybe display

794
00:56:40.570 --> 00:56:42.670
get into operation mode, but you will

795
00:56:42.970 --> 00:56:43.470
silently,

796
00:56:45.210 --> 00:56:46.670
erase or hide

797
00:56:48.650 --> 00:56:49.150
your,

798
00:56:49.450 --> 00:56:51.230
your other things in the device.

799
00:56:52.935 --> 00:56:54.475
And it can also erase

800
00:56:55.575 --> 00:56:58.795
it can erase everything and then show a decoy wallet. Yeah.

801
00:56:59.255 --> 00:57:00.555
As if it was virgin

802
00:57:00.935 --> 00:57:12.410
too, for example. You know, it can show virgin, brick. Which is the best because he raises massive I mean, like, if if someone you don't wanna you don't wanna show someone a brick device. You wanna give them a little something.

803
00:57:14.150 --> 00:57:17.055
Yeah. You can show your duress wallet. Yeah. Right?

804
00:57:17.615 --> 00:57:24.275
And you you gotta you gotta make the guy's time worth it, man. He got off bed early that day to come to your house to try to rob you. You know?

805
00:57:24.974 --> 00:57:26.434
He needs to live with something.

806
00:57:27.295 --> 00:57:30.255
Yeah. I think that tricked me, Pinser. And part of it is because it's

807
00:57:31.010 --> 00:57:38.950
I think part of it is because it takes a lot of personal responsibility to decide how you're gonna implement it and what scenarios you're gonna use it under.

808
00:57:39.329 --> 00:57:43.270
And and then the I think the second issue is that people don't really wanna talk about it.

809
00:57:44.325 --> 00:57:45.545
So Yes.

810
00:57:46.085 --> 00:57:51.464
We don't wanna divulge our little trickery on on air, but I I think that the main point is,

811
00:57:52.005 --> 00:57:56.670
you know, like, Bitcoiners love to talk about zero sum sort of ideas and and, like,

812
00:57:57.230 --> 00:58:06.930
one one idea fits all, sort of one solution fits all on Twitter. Yeah. But realistically speaking, you know, like, there is different threat models in your own life. Right? There is the evil maid.

813
00:58:07.630 --> 00:58:10.450
There is the the evil family member.

814
00:58:11.375 --> 00:58:18.755
There is the the, like, the the state actor issue. There is, like, many levels of different state actor issues.

815
00:58:20.095 --> 00:58:21.714
You know, there is the

816
00:58:22.175 --> 00:58:24.994
illicit illegal sort of try type threats

817
00:58:25.420 --> 00:58:28.320
around you. So there's, like, all kinds of things. And

818
00:58:28.780 --> 00:58:33.360
and having different responses for different scenarios that are more precise

819
00:58:34.060 --> 00:58:35.440
are are very valuable.

820
00:58:37.020 --> 00:58:48.225
Yeah. I mean and the fact that there's not a one size fits all already benefits you. Because if there's if there's a one size fits all, then the attacker also knows what that flow is. That's right.

821
00:58:49.085 --> 00:58:59.799
Normally, it's the orange hat if you're, you're a Your ledger the the custom the custom ledger hat. So the freaks don't know. Ledger released a beanie. Or it wasn't even it wasn't a beanie. It was a,

822
00:59:00.339 --> 00:59:06.279
like, a baseball cap that had a a little pocket for your ledger in it because that's the best place to

823
00:59:07.155 --> 00:59:11.735
store your generational wealth is in a little pocket on your hat while you're at a festival.

824
00:59:13.795 --> 00:59:14.775
High vis large.

825
00:59:16.115 --> 00:59:19.575
It blows my mind that they are by far the largest

826
00:59:21.279 --> 00:59:34.900
hardware wallet provider. But It is a very secure device. Like, I mean, aside from the And they have built in staking support and stuff. It's the shitcoin stuff. Like, they have, like, really Yes. Which is one of the reasons why it's so complicated to use as a Bitcoiner,

827
00:59:36.224 --> 00:59:40.565
is because they support, like, a thousand shit coins. Every time I see the just like

828
00:59:41.345 --> 00:59:48.805
you can, like, stake on the device while you're using it. You know? It's like they don't just support it, but they don't do the bare minimum, like, MVP support.

829
00:59:49.650 --> 00:59:50.549
They, like, actually

830
00:59:51.250 --> 00:59:57.589
full on hardcore support, Jet Coins. Rob is using his cold card in his sauna hat, he says.

831
00:59:59.329 --> 01:00:00.470
Well, I I mean,

832
01:00:01.250 --> 01:00:02.470
Rob is the

833
01:00:03.305 --> 01:00:04.125
the caricature

834
01:00:04.505 --> 01:00:08.765
of someone who uses his cold cards in the most complicated way possible. So I presumably,

835
01:00:10.025 --> 01:00:14.365
it's not a single sig. It's got some kind of time lock on it. He's our best,

836
01:00:15.305 --> 01:00:18.605
best supplier of mini script vaulting accidents. Yeah.

837
01:00:18.990 --> 01:00:19.490
Only

838
01:00:20.110 --> 01:00:23.970
only only go into the sauna with your cold card if it's insured by Lloyd's of London.

839
01:00:26.750 --> 01:00:27.250
I,

840
01:00:27.950 --> 01:00:29.490
where was I going with this?

841
01:00:30.270 --> 01:00:34.370
I mean, another piece is that Ledger is sold in

842
01:00:34.885 --> 01:00:38.665
Best Buy, which I think is kinda cool. So is Bitkey, by the way.

843
01:00:39.045 --> 01:00:42.665
Yes. Bitkey is not sold in New York, though, because of the BitLicense.

844
01:00:43.445 --> 01:00:46.345
So not in New York Best Buy. That is absolutely insane.

845
01:00:47.619 --> 01:00:50.520
Yeah. That's completely retarded. I have actually shipped BitKeys

846
01:00:51.140 --> 01:00:52.440
to New York friends,

847
01:00:54.900 --> 01:01:00.600
because they they can't even buy them on they can't even buy them online and ship them to New York. Anyway, whatever. I digress.

848
01:01:01.060 --> 01:01:01.880
Best Buy.

849
01:01:02.315 --> 01:01:05.615
Cold cards in Best Buy. What are your thoughts on that? Didn't know.

850
01:01:06.395 --> 01:01:06.895
Why?

851
01:01:08.395 --> 01:01:12.975
I mean, you know, I I know as a as an evil VC, you'd love to see that. But

852
01:01:14.955 --> 01:01:15.355
but,

853
01:01:16.690 --> 01:01:30.825
no. I mean, like, listen. We are in in It has nothing to do with me being an investor. I'm just I'm just teasing. Which I'm quite proud of. Yes. They they are a non controlling investor. It's it's it's, so you guys don't have to worry about that.

854
01:01:32.645 --> 01:01:44.220
No. It's just Yeah. Everyone telling me to change NVK's loosely held opinions. That's right. I have no I have no influence over him. Remember, contracts reflect my way of being in general too.

855
01:01:46.060 --> 01:01:47.920
So so, anyways, the the

856
01:01:48.300 --> 01:01:56.640
we're an independent shop. You know? We make a high quality device that that you know, it's very specific and opinionated in how it's done.

857
01:01:57.245 --> 01:01:59.425
And and I I don't believe it's compatible

858
01:01:59.805 --> 01:02:03.425
with Amazon or or this mass market stuff. Like,

859
01:02:04.045 --> 01:02:07.825
you know, mass market is not gonna open up Sparrow. They're gonna expect,

860
01:02:08.365 --> 01:02:14.140
you know, like, a a beautiful app that that, you know, like, maybe has a copy of your seed for you.

861
01:02:14.440 --> 01:02:21.099
You know? Like, it's like the backdoor as a service the ledger launched. You know? That's what the market wants, that kind of market.

862
01:02:23.105 --> 01:02:23.605
And,

863
01:02:24.545 --> 01:02:29.285
you know, I I You could you could do Best Buy in a reasonably secure way.

864
01:02:29.664 --> 01:02:30.164
No.

865
01:02:31.984 --> 01:02:37.684
No? No. I I don't I don't think it's possible. Like, once you cross that threshold of volume,

866
01:02:38.420 --> 01:02:38.920
distribution,

867
01:02:39.860 --> 01:02:40.760
the the

868
01:02:42.260 --> 01:02:42.760
doing

869
01:02:43.300 --> 01:02:44.840
the level of,

870
01:02:46.340 --> 01:02:50.040
of supply chain defenses that we do gets tricky.

871
01:02:50.535 --> 01:02:55.035
I mean, listen. If if people are willing to spend a lot more money, anything can be done.

872
01:02:55.415 --> 01:02:56.474
Right? But

873
01:02:57.174 --> 01:03:00.155
I think I think we're in a sweet spot with that.

874
01:03:01.415 --> 01:03:06.210
You know, you're getting a level of security that should cost probably 10 times more than it costs now.

875
01:03:07.730 --> 01:03:10.070
I like that. Are we gonna raise the price?

876
01:03:10.690 --> 01:03:11.190
No.

877
01:03:14.770 --> 01:03:17.030
So in terms of I know you don't,

878
01:03:17.730 --> 01:03:19.750
I know you'd you're very,

879
01:03:24.665 --> 01:03:27.165
you you don't like sharing you don't like sharing numbers.

880
01:03:29.065 --> 01:03:31.405
And I'm not asking you to share numbers. But,

881
01:03:31.785 --> 01:03:34.045
from, like, a trend point of view,

882
01:03:35.900 --> 01:03:39.840
in terms of us talking about growing self custody usage,

883
01:03:40.780 --> 01:03:49.360
how what what have you seen in terms of cold card sales? Like, is So Are is is self custody increasing? Are we trending in the right direction?

884
01:03:52.205 --> 01:03:54.385
I think How do you what do you see?

885
01:03:54.685 --> 01:03:55.005
So,

886
01:03:56.685 --> 01:03:57.905
we we doubled

887
01:03:58.285 --> 01:03:59.025
the size

888
01:03:59.885 --> 01:04:03.985
of the revenue, I'd say, in the last eighteen months or so,

889
01:04:06.980 --> 01:04:07.480
give

890
01:04:08.073 --> 01:04:08.573
or

891
01:04:09.166 --> 01:04:09.666
take.

892
01:04:10.260 --> 01:04:18.119
So so that's something. I mean, cold card queue and mark four sold more than all the other cold cards we ever sold

893
01:04:19.155 --> 01:04:19.655
combined.

894
01:04:22.915 --> 01:04:27.015
You know, by my own sort of calculations, we're about, like, what, like, the third largest

895
01:04:28.195 --> 01:04:29.895
manufacturer of hardware wallets.

896
01:04:30.980 --> 01:04:33.400
But, you know, it's that's great. Ledger, Trezor,

897
01:04:33.859 --> 01:04:47.905
Coldcard? Yeah. But I think there's a decent gap between those two and us because we don't have the shit coins. Right? Well, there's probably, like, a big gap between Ledger and Trezor and then a big gap from Trezor to cold card. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That that would be a very fair assessment.

898
01:04:48.605 --> 01:04:54.305
You know, not having the shitcoins does preclude us from selling, like, substantially more.

899
01:04:55.645 --> 01:04:59.660
Because, like, see, a a lot of people are not even gonna use a lot of the shitcoins,

900
01:05:00.040 --> 01:05:02.380
but it's part of the checkbox list

901
01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:14.665
on when the the more mainstream kind of influencers are are sort of talking about heart of wallet, they're like, oh, but, you know, gold card is great, but it doesn't support the shitcoins. It's like we're like, yeah. They always have they always have one shitcoin.

902
01:05:15.045 --> 01:05:15.705
Yeah. Yeah.

903
01:05:16.085 --> 01:05:22.585
They don't want a thousand shitcoins. They just they have their favorite shitcoin, not shitcoin, and it needs to support it. Exactly.

904
01:05:23.605 --> 01:05:31.100
And what's funny is that, like, a lot of people don't really use their hardware wallets for Shecoins because they're still trading them, so they keep them on exchanges anyways.

905
01:05:31.560 --> 01:05:37.980
But the thing is, to be fair to the Ledger guys, is that they make trading very easy for the Shecoins within the app.

906
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:40.775
Right. And,

907
01:05:41.155 --> 01:05:43.575
Trezor too. I mean, they they have their own Shecoin

908
01:05:43.875 --> 01:05:45.655
brokerage inside of the app.

909
01:05:47.075 --> 01:05:49.015
Yeah. I mean, like, listen. It's like

910
01:05:49.875 --> 01:05:52.535
I I think there is always

911
01:05:53.075 --> 01:05:54.615
gonna be a ceiling

912
01:05:55.220 --> 01:06:01.559
on hardware wallet sales for Bitcoin only that's gonna be a factor of the Bitcoin

913
01:06:02.980 --> 01:06:04.359
phase of the wave,

914
01:06:06.579 --> 01:06:07.720
and not

915
01:06:08.415 --> 01:06:16.675
doing the the SharePoint stuff. I mean, we we but we don't care. We we, you know, we like having a business and growing the business, but, like,

916
01:06:17.295 --> 01:06:22.110
you know, sales numbers is not the thing that I wake up and give a shit about it every day.

917
01:06:25.070 --> 01:06:27.650
But so do you I mean, the question was

918
01:06:29.150 --> 01:06:32.050
I mean, look, we both know CoinKite's in a very good position,

919
01:06:33.870 --> 01:06:35.070
revenue wise. I'm I'm

920
01:06:36.275 --> 01:06:44.775
the the question is more, like, how do do you think that we're in a good position as an ecosystem self custody wise based on your knowledge of internal numbers?

921
01:06:47.155 --> 01:06:55.150
Like, do you said Yeah. So so wake up in the morning and you're like, talk. We need more people to self custody Bitcoin, or you're like, we're in a good spot. We're doing well.

922
01:06:55.530 --> 01:07:15.365
The people that buy corn self custody it. Grandma is buying a hundred bucks worth of Bitcoin. You know? Grandma doesn't exist. Doesn't exist. Like, we don't care. Like, reality is, like, you know because we get the emails from people who have corn and are self custodying and are asking questions when we have firmware updates. So, like, we engage a lot with our user base,

923
01:07:15.984 --> 01:07:17.525
and it's a large user base.

924
01:07:18.369 --> 01:07:25.190
We can see that. We can see the amount of numbers that go up when the Bitcoin price goes up, and we we can see the questions that come in.

925
01:07:25.570 --> 01:07:27.270
So these are not, like, LARPing

926
01:07:28.210 --> 01:07:33.750
people. It's it's you know? I think the people who have corn in any significant

927
01:07:34.295 --> 01:07:36.555
numbers are self custodying it.

928
01:07:37.655 --> 01:07:39.355
That's that's like a

929
01:07:39.815 --> 01:07:43.835
it's it's a we are in a very good place, I think, self custody wise in Bitcoin.

930
01:07:44.455 --> 01:07:45.355
I don't think

931
01:07:45.655 --> 01:07:48.315
people who have the capacity and are not traders

932
01:07:49.070 --> 01:07:49.890
are not self custody.

933
01:07:53.550 --> 01:07:54.770
Traders don't give a shit.

934
01:07:55.310 --> 01:07:59.810
No. Traders never gave a shit. That's But they are a large part of the Huddl. Right?

935
01:08:02.145 --> 01:08:09.685
Yeah. I mean, and some of them have a they have a Huddl stash, and then they have their trading stash. Right? And it's it's separate.

936
01:08:13.025 --> 01:08:14.565
So Joe is asking,

937
01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:20.500
he asked a question, in a decade, what percent of Bitcoiners will have Bitcoin in self custody?

938
01:08:20.800 --> 01:08:25.060
I wanna change the question a little bit because of exactly your carve out for,

939
01:08:26.160 --> 01:08:28.980
I don't know, people that have negligible amounts,

940
01:08:29.645 --> 01:08:31.905
which it might not make sense for them anyway.

941
01:08:33.565 --> 01:08:36.864
So in a decade, what percent of Bitcoiners do you think,

942
01:08:38.525 --> 01:08:39.265
that have

943
01:08:39.645 --> 01:08:41.825
price exposure to more than one Bitcoin

944
01:08:42.580 --> 01:08:44.440
or holding Bitcoin in self custody.

945
01:08:45.060 --> 01:08:56.360
I feel like that's a better question. I mean, in a decade, maybe now we're just talking about whether they're, like, worth, like, $10,000,000. I don't know. I mean, it sorry. I mean, decade in Bitcoin, it's, like, almost double the age of Bitcoin right now.

946
01:08:57.885 --> 01:08:59.005
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a years.

947
01:09:01.005 --> 01:09:01.505
Yeah.

948
01:09:02.365 --> 01:09:12.385
What I mean, so so back to George's original question. Like, what does success look like to you? If we're in ten years in ten years, what percentage of Bitcoin is using self custody

949
01:09:12.910 --> 01:09:13.650
is success?

950
01:09:14.430 --> 01:09:16.450
I think this trend is gonna be linear.

951
01:09:16.990 --> 01:09:22.690
Right? So so the self custody is gonna always be sort of playing catch up with the new

952
01:09:22.990 --> 01:09:24.210
acquisition of Bitcoin.

953
01:09:24.910 --> 01:09:25.410
So

954
01:09:29.235 --> 01:09:34.295
I think we're gonna be in a good place. I think we are in a good place. I I don't have a number for you. Percent?

955
01:09:35.555 --> 01:09:45.239
Maybe. Yeah. It could be five. It could be 10. It could be 20. Like, it's impossible to know. That's the beauty. Right? And and the better people would you not fucking guess. I'm not gonna guess.

956
01:09:45.540 --> 01:09:46.040
Sorry.

957
01:09:50.739 --> 01:09:55.880
No. Yeah. I'm sorry, Jory. You didn't zap enough. You didn't zap enough. Zap a little higher,

958
01:09:56.875 --> 01:09:58.094
and I'll try to guess.

959
01:09:58.955 --> 01:10:02.494
No. I mean, it's kind of a pointless exercise. Right? Like, remember,

960
01:10:03.034 --> 01:10:07.054
it's very similar to when, like, you know, like, when you hear, like,

961
01:10:07.514 --> 01:10:15.040
startups come pitch Bitcoin companies to you and they say, hey. You know? Like, there's a hundred million Bitcoin users in the world self custody. There aren't.

962
01:10:15.340 --> 01:10:16.640
No. There aren't.

963
01:10:18.860 --> 01:10:21.040
So How many people do you think there are

964
01:10:21.525 --> 01:10:22.025
right

965
01:10:23.364 --> 01:10:23.864
now?

966
01:10:24.645 --> 01:10:25.145
Two,

967
01:10:26.085 --> 01:10:26.585
Neil.

968
01:10:28.804 --> 01:10:29.304
Okay.

969
01:10:30.565 --> 01:10:32.105
That's probably a little bit high.

970
01:10:33.125 --> 01:10:34.745
No. I I think we've got there.

971
01:10:35.280 --> 01:10:38.020
How many people do you think hold self custody Bitcoin

972
01:10:38.639 --> 01:10:40.260
over 1 Bitcoin right now?

973
01:10:46.719 --> 01:10:49.059
I'd say at least half a million people.

974
01:10:49.760 --> 01:10:50.500
No way.

975
01:10:52.614 --> 01:10:54.395
Over Bitcoin? Over 1 Bitcoin?

976
01:10:54.775 --> 01:10:55.835
Probably. Yeah.

977
01:10:57.335 --> 01:10:59.435
Okay. Well, I I asked,

978
01:11:02.695 --> 01:11:06.780
I asked the AI. The AI said hundred to 250.

979
01:11:07.800 --> 01:11:11.340
Yeah. Okay. Whatever. We can split the difference there. Say two fifty.

980
01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:15.740
I mean, that's what I I think is probably around I've probably around there.

981
01:11:16.200 --> 01:11:18.700
I don't I think it's way less than, like,

982
01:11:19.344 --> 01:11:22.165
the yes. So you'd be okay. One Bitcoin's a lot.

983
01:11:23.025 --> 01:11:23.585
It's like,

984
01:11:24.145 --> 01:11:25.585
Yeah. But there's 21,000,000

985
01:11:25.585 --> 01:11:26.244
of them.

986
01:11:27.025 --> 01:11:29.364
Yeah. But they're I mean That's busy.

987
01:11:29.824 --> 01:11:32.165
If you're there, you can hold more than one. Right?

988
01:11:33.020 --> 01:11:36.800
And if keeps on selling, 90% of it be in, Michael Saylor's

989
01:11:37.260 --> 01:11:38.480
hand. Yeah. BlackRock.

990
01:11:38.940 --> 01:11:39.440
Okay.

991
01:11:41.500 --> 01:11:43.120
What else do I got for you?

992
01:11:43.660 --> 01:11:50.894
The freaks aren't asking very good questions in the chat, so I'm the host. Jor zapped 9,000 sats. Does that change your quest your answer?

993
01:11:52.155 --> 01:11:53.855
Thank you for your support, Jor.

994
01:11:54.715 --> 01:11:58.175
Thanks, Jor. But we we answered the question in numbers instead of percentage.

995
01:11:59.434 --> 01:11:59.914
What do you

996
01:12:00.820 --> 01:12:02.120
what are your thoughts,

997
01:12:05.860 --> 01:12:06.360
on,

998
01:12:08.020 --> 01:12:09.000
Nostra hardware?

999
01:12:10.100 --> 01:12:15.400
Like, hardware set like, will you ever release a hardware device that signs Nostra

1000
01:12:15.780 --> 01:12:16.280
messages?

1001
01:12:16.845 --> 01:12:17.505
It's pointless.

1002
01:12:18.765 --> 01:12:22.945
Why? Like, because you you're gonna have to have the device hot. Right?

1003
01:12:24.125 --> 01:12:26.864
Like, every single interaction on master is signed.

1004
01:12:28.685 --> 01:12:30.625
Yeah. You can just tap your phone?

1005
01:12:31.179 --> 01:12:40.880
Yeah. You're gonna tap your phone. Like, every like you have, you have to pull out the hardware wallet and tap it. What if I what if what if I don't wanna I don't like any posts? I just I just broadcast.

1006
01:12:43.995 --> 01:12:45.054
What do you mean?

1007
01:12:45.435 --> 01:12:47.295
There's use cases where someone

1008
01:12:48.875 --> 01:12:58.094
and let's say you're like Snowden. Right? You don't you don't necessarily need to like post or, like, engage with people. You just wanna broadcast or, like, your WikiLeaks or some shit. Yeah.

1009
01:12:58.810 --> 01:13:03.230
Yeah. I think Or even the White House. Like, the White House isn't liking people's posts

1010
01:13:03.610 --> 01:13:04.350
and, like,

1011
01:13:04.810 --> 01:13:14.190
zapping people. I mean, they're not a noster, but Okay. Even on an x, they're not liking people's posts and replying. All they wanna do is send out a message saying, you know, like, we're not going to war with Pakistan

1012
01:13:14.715 --> 01:13:17.935
today. Okay. I'll consider that once we have, like,

1013
01:13:18.315 --> 01:13:18.815
say,

1014
01:13:19.835 --> 01:13:22.815
at least a thousand White Houses with that need.

1015
01:13:23.915 --> 01:13:29.534
A thousand? But there's not even that many countries. Yeah. But exactly. Am I gonna make a device for two people?

1016
01:13:30.550 --> 01:13:31.690
Yeah. I mean, maybe.

1017
01:13:32.469 --> 01:13:33.610
I'd use it.

1018
01:13:35.989 --> 01:13:36.890
Okay. Fine.

1019
01:13:37.510 --> 01:13:38.330
Next question.

1020
01:13:41.030 --> 01:13:42.410
Fuck. I just had the question.

1021
01:13:46.855 --> 01:13:47.915
Goddamn it.

1022
01:13:49.335 --> 01:13:51.275
Oh, I wanna talk about

1023
01:13:52.855 --> 01:13:55.195
this ESP 32 vulnerability.

1024
01:13:56.830 --> 01:14:00.770
How do you think about it? And the block clocks use ESP 32.

1025
01:14:01.469 --> 01:14:02.530
Should we be concerned?

1026
01:14:03.390 --> 01:14:06.610
Yeah. So ESP 32 is a fantastic platform,

1027
01:14:07.790 --> 01:14:08.690
for development

1028
01:14:09.085 --> 01:14:12.945
and for, you know, running Christmas lights and displaying the Bitcoin price.

1029
01:14:13.405 --> 01:14:21.105
It's like you get a lot of memory, a lot of processing power for very reasonable amount of, money, and it has a lot of IOs.

1030
01:14:22.040 --> 01:14:25.180
So that's kind of like a big deal if you're if you're building hardware.

1031
01:14:26.360 --> 01:14:27.739
It is a Chinese platform.

1032
01:14:28.520 --> 01:14:30.780
It is not designed for holding secrets.

1033
01:14:33.239 --> 01:14:35.100
Definitely not designed for holding secrets.

1034
01:14:36.244 --> 01:14:36.744
And,

1035
01:14:37.605 --> 01:14:44.505
so so when you have a platform like that, you know, it's extremely unadvisable to build secure systems around it.

1036
01:14:45.125 --> 01:14:47.145
You're gonna run into all kinds of problems

1037
01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:51.460
just because of the nature of the platform itself. Right? Like,

1038
01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:52.980
you know, if today's

1039
01:14:53.440 --> 01:14:53.940
vulnerability

1040
01:14:54.320 --> 01:14:57.380
is exaggerated or not, that depends on who you ask.

1041
01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:02.019
But the reality is when you have an an an a non secure

1042
01:15:02.985 --> 01:15:04.605
platform or nonsecurable

1043
01:15:05.065 --> 01:15:05.565
platform,

1044
01:15:05.945 --> 01:15:10.205
you're gonna just be having those problems all the time. So just don't use them for Cardowalts.

1045
01:15:13.304 --> 01:15:14.970
Yes. BeMinder, it's great for that.

1046
01:15:15.690 --> 01:15:18.830
I mean, should we be concerned should we be concerned that

1047
01:15:19.850 --> 01:15:26.430
but so the bid access is ESP 32, so does block lock. Should we be concerned about it can being connected to our Wi Fi networks?

1048
01:15:27.370 --> 01:15:30.590
You have bigger problems in your house. Like, you have Alexa.

1049
01:15:31.744 --> 01:15:38.724
You know? You have, like, fucking fans and fridges now connected to the like, listen. Your house Wi Fi is compromised.

1050
01:15:40.304 --> 01:15:48.949
Just assume that. So it's not gonna be, like, you know Okay. So, I mean, that was that was also my conclusion on RHR. So that I I was correct.

1051
01:15:49.410 --> 01:16:07.265
Yeah. Like, you're just or you're already fucked. That's the reason cold storage exists is because you you don't want your keys connected to to your Wi Fi. Don't don't use a platform like that for hard wallets. Use it for fridges. Perfect. And, also, like, don't have Alexa in your house. Just throw out the wiretap freaks. Don't have a Ring camera on your

1052
01:16:08.685 --> 01:16:09.905
on your front door.

1053
01:16:11.090 --> 01:16:20.949
Yeah. Rob Hamilton saying Matt needs end to end air gap to post good morning post. Yes. Correct. I think I think there's product market fit there. I mean, it could, theoretically,

1054
01:16:21.809 --> 01:16:24.309
tap to, tap to to broadcast.

1055
01:16:27.125 --> 01:16:44.090
Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Tap to broadcast. That'd be dope. Okay. Open it up. Type it on the keyboard. Tap to broadcast. Boom. Done. That'd be dope. It needs That'd be so awesome. So you need I need a separate NSEC for replying to people, but I just have one that I just use for broadcasting.

1056
01:16:44.710 --> 01:16:48.650
Okay. So it's gonna need to you probably have to be on the Edge firmware,

1057
01:16:50.710 --> 01:16:51.850
because of Schnorr.

1058
01:16:55.575 --> 01:16:57.435
Yeah. I have to look into it.

1059
01:16:58.855 --> 01:17:02.715
I mean, I'm sure it'll be a great demo, and there'll be just one user. But yes.

1060
01:17:03.335 --> 01:17:08.475
And there'll be there'll be at least that looks like by the live chat, there'll be at least five of us.

1061
01:17:09.310 --> 01:17:14.770
We'll be very vocal about it. I wanna see a picture and a video of you doing it every time you do it.

1062
01:17:15.469 --> 01:17:17.250
I mean, no. It does actually like,

1063
01:17:21.355 --> 01:17:31.054
Yeah. I will I will I will loudly let people know that I'm I'm doing it. I will just say that, like, my end sec right now, like, I have been quite careless with it.

1064
01:17:31.435 --> 01:17:32.815
It's, like, the exact opposite.

1065
01:17:35.170 --> 01:17:36.790
Is that fix it.

1066
01:17:37.490 --> 01:17:41.830
What? Frost. Like, some of the Frost solutions might fix it.

1067
01:17:42.290 --> 01:17:45.430
Yeah. And maybe there's a hardware signer component to that. No?

1068
01:17:46.804 --> 01:17:50.744
Like, a multisig setup where, like, some of my keys are tapped to sign?

1069
01:17:51.125 --> 01:17:57.225
Yeah. But then might as well have, like, multi app sort of, like, multi device sort of resolving a lot of that.

1070
01:18:00.219 --> 01:18:01.840
It's just not there yet. Like,

1071
01:18:02.380 --> 01:18:12.079
I I think we I think we just need better primitives on on Noster. Right? So, like, because it's on Schnorr, like, technically, you could do frost or whatever. Like, once we sort out primitives,

1072
01:18:13.425 --> 01:18:17.205
we can sort out, like, then what the signers need to look like.

1073
01:18:17.585 --> 01:18:21.925
Ideally, it will be fun to bypass the need for for custom hardware for Nostra.

1074
01:18:27.120 --> 01:18:30.100
But we're gonna be on the edge firmware just for you, man.

1075
01:18:30.560 --> 01:18:33.780
Okay. Thank you. Is is Satslink still gonna happen,

1076
01:18:34.160 --> 01:18:35.699
or what's the deal with that?

1077
01:18:36.160 --> 01:18:38.340
It it's brutal. It's it's on the bench.

1078
01:18:40.565 --> 01:18:43.225
I think you've seen some, some private previews.

1079
01:18:45.205 --> 01:18:48.905
Yeah. I keep asking you questions that I know the answers to, but I'm being good.

1080
01:18:49.285 --> 01:18:55.240
It's it's pretty it's pretty brutal. That's the part that most people here don't understand about, like, you interviewing me is very difficult.

1081
01:18:57.540 --> 01:19:01.240
You know, we're both, a host of very successful podcasts.

1082
01:19:02.020 --> 01:19:02.680
It's true.

1083
01:19:04.180 --> 01:19:07.560
And, we both do business together. So and Matt,

1084
01:19:07.925 --> 01:19:10.185
you know, doesn't wanna divulge his specific,

1085
01:19:11.045 --> 01:19:11.545
security

1086
01:19:12.165 --> 01:19:12.665
details.

1087
01:19:13.125 --> 01:19:14.745
So it makes it very difficult.

1088
01:19:16.245 --> 01:19:17.865
But What we do for you freaks?

1089
01:19:18.325 --> 01:19:21.305
It's good. I completely got out of having to explain,

1090
01:19:22.085 --> 01:19:22.585
Satslink.

1091
01:19:23.620 --> 01:19:32.360
So is it gonna come out or no? Yeah. We want it to happen. It's just we we don't have the bandwidth. We're we're just like it's like one of those products that's just sitting on the bench,

1092
01:19:32.980 --> 01:19:34.820
like, you know, 70%

1093
01:19:34.820 --> 01:19:35.320
complete.

1094
01:19:36.285 --> 01:19:39.585
We just we just can't find the time to finish it.

1095
01:19:40.125 --> 01:19:42.864
So we gave people That would be the perfect refunds.

1096
01:19:44.445 --> 01:19:48.145
People got, got a chance to convert, at a at a discount,

1097
01:19:49.300 --> 01:19:52.199
to a discounted queue and stuff. Most people did.

1098
01:19:54.340 --> 01:20:09.615
But, you know, it's there. You know, we hope to find the time to do it. It's just it's just hard. We're small shop guys. We we we really are for development. Like, we don't we don't want to grow in that sense and spread ourselves thin, and the security of your coins are more important than,

1099
01:20:10.335 --> 01:20:11.795
than sending Nasr notes.

1100
01:20:12.735 --> 01:20:21.980
I mean, because SaaSlink would be perfect for the Nasr site. Yes. Because then you wouldn't even have to do it. You just ship the device and let someone else build it. I mean, it'll be great for lightning too.

1101
01:20:22.280 --> 01:20:25.180
But, but here's the thing. On on the continuance

1102
01:20:25.640 --> 01:20:29.340
of my new, GitHub tag internal tag called fuck the computer,

1103
01:20:30.765 --> 01:20:40.305
we we are looking at ways to bring in UTXO data to cold cards so that you'd be able to have your TX so you can do your coin selection in your cold card,

1104
01:20:41.324 --> 01:20:47.420
build the transaction with the cold card, sign it, and then broadcast it. So you don't even need a computer from How would you do that?

1105
01:20:48.840 --> 01:20:55.845
There there is a few ideas rolling around internally. We're we're not quite there yet, and, like, decision on how it's gonna be done. But,

1106
01:20:57.205 --> 01:21:00.745
essentially, there'll be a a very quick way for you to,

1107
01:21:01.525 --> 01:21:03.785
pass on, say, for example, TX hashes

1108
01:21:06.085 --> 01:21:06.585
to,

1109
01:21:07.365 --> 01:21:10.665
like, an API, right, similar to how you do push TX.

1110
01:21:12.150 --> 01:21:13.370
Then you get the UTXO

1111
01:21:14.230 --> 01:21:14.730
state

1112
01:21:15.350 --> 01:21:16.010
of those,

1113
01:21:16.469 --> 01:21:17.370
TX hashes,

1114
01:21:17.830 --> 01:21:19.450
kinda similar how Electrum,

1115
01:21:20.390 --> 01:21:22.090
checks your coins. Okay?

1116
01:21:23.285 --> 01:21:27.225
And then and then the cold card gets that that information back as a QR.

1117
01:21:28.245 --> 01:21:31.465
And now you have your coins on your cold card,

1118
01:21:32.645 --> 01:21:34.745
and you select them and you spend them.

1119
01:21:35.410 --> 01:21:41.030
You set your fee and everything. The cold card the cold card gets the state via QR code in this situation?

1120
01:21:41.570 --> 01:21:42.070
Yeah.

1121
01:21:43.650 --> 01:21:51.554
Got it. Yep. And then, and then they assume spent. And then you can refresh that state once again whenever you want.

1122
01:21:53.375 --> 01:22:02.655
I just wanna let, Rob Hamilton know that I've brought him up too much in this episode considering he hasn't zapped at all yet. So he will not be

1123
01:22:03.454 --> 01:22:05.400
no more comments about him going forward.

1124
01:22:08.600 --> 01:22:16.219
Oh, yeah. The the also, so Rob wants to bring up the pod that he shows up often. That's that's why. He's your he's your cohost now. Right?

1125
01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:17.439
No. I mean, like,

1126
01:22:18.040 --> 01:22:20.300
Bitcoin. Review is, is where

1127
01:22:21.395 --> 01:22:22.295
Rob comes,

1128
01:22:22.995 --> 01:22:24.455
Ringdell comes. Odell,

1129
01:22:25.475 --> 01:22:26.614
is is overdue

1130
01:22:26.995 --> 01:22:28.614
is overdue. I got invited.

1131
01:22:30.915 --> 01:22:31.415
What?

1132
01:22:31.875 --> 01:22:36.460
You're always invited. It's an open door, for for Matt. Matt is, one of the original,

1133
01:22:37.160 --> 01:22:37.660
frequent

1134
01:22:38.120 --> 01:22:38.620
guests.

1135
01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:46.860
You see Rob? I zapped at the start. I was the first zap.

1136
01:22:47.320 --> 01:22:48.620
Yeah. He did zap.

1137
01:22:49.535 --> 01:22:53.295
I was sorry. It's too low to show in the leaderboard, so I forgot about it. Shit.

1138
01:22:54.095 --> 01:22:55.135
It's 4.2

1139
01:22:55.135 --> 01:22:55.795
k. Show.

1140
01:22:56.095 --> 01:22:59.715
And it's a good show. I use it, to help my son sleep.

1141
01:23:00.335 --> 01:23:02.275
It is literally the purpose of it.

1142
01:23:04.260 --> 01:23:08.039
Do you have an opinion before we wrap here, do you have opinion on,

1143
01:23:09.380 --> 01:23:10.039
the recent,

1144
01:23:10.579 --> 01:23:11.880
Bitcoin core scandal?

1145
01:23:12.739 --> 01:23:13.639
So we do.

1146
01:23:15.860 --> 01:23:17.639
The removing the opportune

1147
01:23:18.260 --> 01:23:18.760
limit,

1148
01:23:19.775 --> 01:23:21.155
and how it was handled

1149
01:23:21.535 --> 01:23:27.395
when they get home? It's a fucking disaster, man. Like, I I I've I've tweeted before that I'm losing my faith on core.

1150
01:23:28.815 --> 01:23:30.515
This is normal. Like, most

1151
01:23:30.975 --> 01:23:32.435
large open source,

1152
01:23:32.920 --> 01:23:36.380
projects start to become a a fucking disaster in terms of, like,

1153
01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:37.820
governance and

1154
01:23:38.360 --> 01:23:38.840
and,

1155
01:23:41.560 --> 01:23:43.820
and and and discussion level and stuff.

1156
01:23:45.720 --> 01:23:47.925
I think a lot of people there lost the plot,

1157
01:23:49.445 --> 01:23:49.945
but

1158
01:23:50.645 --> 01:23:54.105
there's a lot of good people there. There's a lot of good people who lost the plot.

1159
01:23:55.605 --> 01:24:00.025
There is it it it's it's a very difficult place to be in. Right? Like,

1160
01:24:00.570 --> 01:24:03.469
it's like, very anarchic. It's,

1161
01:24:04.250 --> 01:24:04.750
voluntary.

1162
01:24:06.730 --> 01:24:08.750
It is, in many cases, unpaid.

1163
01:24:09.770 --> 01:24:10.270
Although

1164
01:24:10.650 --> 01:24:13.790
a lot of if not most of them nowadays have very good grants.

1165
01:24:16.565 --> 01:24:20.185
And there is a lot of, power trips that happen as well.

1166
01:24:21.445 --> 01:24:24.185
It's a nerd environment, so people have strong opinions.

1167
01:24:26.645 --> 01:24:31.559
Strongly held. Being strongly held. Mine are loosely held. I I changed my opinion. I changed my opinion.

1168
01:24:31.940 --> 01:24:32.440
Yours.

1169
01:24:32.900 --> 01:24:35.639
When was the last time you changed your opinion on something?

1170
01:24:35.940 --> 01:24:38.440
Oh, Jesus, dude. I change my opinion every day.

1171
01:24:38.980 --> 01:25:01.840
I feel like I argue with you on a daily basis about things you don't never change your opinion on. Yeah. But that's because you're wrong. That's that's that's a different problem. That's a you problem, not a you problem. So but on the so so you have concerns about core. Like, what are the solutions? Do you have solutions? Or No. There is no the the solution is you don't need to update. Bitcoin is the solution. Bitcoin was designed, so it's backwards compatible, and you don't have to update.

1172
01:25:02.940 --> 01:25:04.159
Don't update your note.

1173
01:25:04.699 --> 01:25:05.599
Stop updating

1174
01:25:06.165 --> 01:25:12.905
and be the change you wanna see. If you wanna fucking fork their GitHub and and, like, start a new core, do it. Like, who cares?

1175
01:25:14.244 --> 01:25:16.905
Add add add like, be a fucking punk.

1176
01:25:17.605 --> 01:25:23.550
You know? Like, I'm not saying I'm gonna like that you're being a punk because whatever the fuck you probably do, you're gonna piss me off too.

1177
01:25:24.170 --> 01:25:26.350
But, like, you know, like, it's, like,

1178
01:25:27.050 --> 01:25:29.150
it's, it's just the way it works.

1179
01:25:30.410 --> 01:25:31.790
I think a lot of people,

1180
01:25:32.410 --> 01:25:35.230
on core are good hearted, are well intended,

1181
01:25:35.815 --> 01:25:44.155
but many don't run a business. Many don't don't have to deal with transactions every day. So so there's a lot of make work projects there.

1182
01:25:44.855 --> 01:25:46.295
There's a lot of, like,

1183
01:25:48.560 --> 01:25:53.060
Yeah. It's just you know, it it's normal. I mean, like, because, you know, Bitcoin in its core,

1184
01:25:53.440 --> 01:25:55.780
no pun intended, works. Right?

1185
01:25:57.680 --> 01:25:59.380
So so people find

1186
01:25:59.920 --> 01:26:00.420
efficiencies,

1187
01:26:01.735 --> 01:26:20.239
to work on, and then they also try to push on their personal preferences. And everybody has their own personal preferences, and and, you know, it's just gonna be like that. Just who gives a shit, man? Like, honestly, like, I don't even look at the fucking mailing list anymore. You know? I haven't updated my note. I don't look at the mailing list. It works. I don't care.

1188
01:26:22.540 --> 01:26:23.360
It's true.

1189
01:26:23.900 --> 01:26:26.080
That's the power of Bitcoin. What do you think, Matt,

1190
01:26:27.260 --> 01:26:28.160
of this receipt?

1191
01:26:31.824 --> 01:26:36.804
I mean, I think, ultimately, in this particular situation, like, users should be able to choose,

1192
01:26:37.264 --> 01:26:38.965
like, what their node relays.

1193
01:26:39.824 --> 01:26:44.310
I don't think it really affects things anyway. It's not a consensus rule.

1194
01:26:44.790 --> 01:26:47.450
Minors can just include whatever the fuck they wanna include.

1195
01:26:49.830 --> 01:26:50.970
And have been.

1196
01:26:51.750 --> 01:26:53.210
So Why they have?

1197
01:26:54.310 --> 01:26:54.970
I think

1198
01:26:56.485 --> 01:27:02.265
I think the, quote, unquote, moderation or censorship depending on how you count it in the actual,

1199
01:27:03.765 --> 01:27:04.665
merge request

1200
01:27:06.565 --> 01:27:08.745
thread on GitHub in the repo

1201
01:27:09.260 --> 01:27:15.920
was incredibly poorly handled and probably should've just never been done in the first place. Like, that just creates controversy for no reason.

1202
01:27:19.100 --> 01:27:24.160
I kinda resent that technical Bitcoin conversation is still happening on x,

1203
01:27:25.715 --> 01:27:27.815
but that'll probably just take some time.

1204
01:27:31.074 --> 01:27:33.815
But, yeah, I mean, I I I I think

1205
01:27:34.275 --> 01:27:35.494
what a lot of people

1206
01:27:38.630 --> 01:27:40.889
I I I I think that us

1207
01:27:41.270 --> 01:27:43.050
deify like, I'm very grateful.

1208
01:27:43.429 --> 01:27:46.650
I'm very grateful for the people that we have working on Bitcoin.

1209
01:27:47.190 --> 01:27:52.170
I think there's a timeline where we don't have these people, and it's the single most bullish fundamental for Bitcoin.

1210
01:27:52.575 --> 01:27:56.995
But at the same time, like, we shouldn't be deifying them. And there, you know,

1211
01:27:58.095 --> 01:28:01.875
there should be ridiculous. Right? They're people. Friendly adversarial

1212
01:28:02.175 --> 01:28:06.355
thought. Yeah. No one's a gene you know, no one's, like, above criticism and and

1213
01:28:07.050 --> 01:28:07.550
and,

1214
01:28:08.410 --> 01:28:09.470
Except for Maxwell.

1215
01:28:10.890 --> 01:28:11.630
Just kidding.

1216
01:28:13.770 --> 01:28:28.335
Yeah. I mean, like and I think drama. There's a lot of, like, people dynamics too. Right? Because there's a lot of people who used to be way more relevant. They wanna stay relevant, so they just offer bike shedding opinions on shit just to be participating in fucking you know, it's just normal people shit.

1217
01:28:28.955 --> 01:28:38.090
Dude, that's life. Life is people shit. Like, everything's a people thing. You know? Business is a people thing. Family is a people. Everything's a people thing.

1218
01:28:38.470 --> 01:28:39.930
Yeah. Open source is no different.

1219
01:28:41.990 --> 01:28:42.970
So we have,

1220
01:28:43.990 --> 01:28:47.370
Rob decided that he was actually gonna zap. So he's he's now

1221
01:28:47.995 --> 01:28:53.215
officially the top zapper with 30,000 zaps. So Wow. Peer pressure works. So I guess that's recent

1222
01:28:53.835 --> 01:29:03.055
well, I you actually get a reverse of a cut because he's he's being a little bit of a dick to you. So I asked him when he was gonna open I asked him when he was gonna open source

1223
01:29:03.570 --> 01:29:08.550
when he was gonna open source Trident wallet Mhmm. Anchor Watches, Trident wallet.

1224
01:29:09.010 --> 01:29:12.710
And he has says he has no plans to open source it. He defended his decision.

1225
01:29:13.410 --> 01:29:15.430
He said if he does open source it,

1226
01:29:18.165 --> 01:29:24.025
he won't fully open source it. He will do your license, the MIT CC license. I mean, technically, it's the Redis

1227
01:29:24.405 --> 01:29:26.905
license. The the Redis. The what?

1228
01:29:27.284 --> 01:29:29.385
Redis. It's like a very famous database.

1229
01:29:30.930 --> 01:29:35.510
Okay. So you didn't invent it. You you cloned it from someone else. Oh, absolutely.

1230
01:29:37.650 --> 01:29:38.790
Why why

1231
01:29:39.570 --> 01:29:42.390
and we've we've we've talked about this a million times.

1232
01:29:43.025 --> 01:29:46.485
But since he brought it up and since he paid good money to bring it up,

1233
01:29:47.425 --> 01:29:50.804
why did you change why did you change the cold card's license,

1234
01:29:52.545 --> 01:29:53.764
to commercially restrict

1235
01:29:55.760 --> 01:29:57.460
usage of it? Because

1236
01:29:57.920 --> 01:29:59.460
we like to fuck with assholes.

1237
01:30:03.920 --> 01:30:06.580
That really is it. Like, I mean, like, you know,

1238
01:30:07.760 --> 01:30:08.660
there is people

1239
01:30:09.105 --> 01:30:10.725
who who take advantage of

1240
01:30:11.345 --> 01:30:12.005
the commons,

1241
01:30:13.025 --> 01:30:16.725
and that's true. For example, you know, you know my opinion. I think GPO is a checkpoint,

1242
01:30:18.305 --> 01:30:24.485
and, you know, uses the state the same way that that other licenses that are restrictive use the state.

1243
01:30:25.680 --> 01:30:31.940
And but at the end of the day, for example, with, like, say, BitX right now. Right? Like, China doesn't give a fuck about licenses.

1244
01:30:33.200 --> 01:30:36.100
The like, big markets don't give a shit about licenses.

1245
01:30:36.880 --> 01:30:39.220
So BitX is BitX is GPL,

1246
01:30:40.515 --> 01:30:46.775
but China just so GPL says that if you use their code, you have to keep it open source, any derivative projects,

1247
01:30:47.395 --> 01:30:57.380
and China just took it and closed sourced it. Yeah. I mean, that happened to us. Right? So the people who clone our our devices, they they took our code, and they didn't make it open until much later.

1248
01:30:57.920 --> 01:31:00.100
And they never contributed back either.

1249
01:31:01.199 --> 01:31:12.014
So, you know, like, I'm I'm like, you know what? So fuck you. I'm gonna fight back the way we can, and, you know, we did that. We for us, the most important thing is, like, can I protect the users from myself,

1250
01:31:13.355 --> 01:31:16.735
right, which is part of the the defense model of the cold card?

1251
01:31:17.114 --> 01:31:21.070
Right. And in our license, we do that. Right? It's very,

1252
01:31:21.450 --> 01:31:21.950
very,

1253
01:31:22.490 --> 01:31:25.150
generous to the user. The user can do whatever they want.

1254
01:31:26.330 --> 01:31:31.230
The only restriction that we have is if they try to essentially have a competing business with us,

1255
01:31:31.770 --> 01:31:33.935
and then we get to fuck you. So,

1256
01:31:34.875 --> 01:31:37.454
I think it's a very fair license in that sense.

1257
01:31:37.755 --> 01:31:39.375
Hardware and, like, software,

1258
01:31:40.554 --> 01:31:41.295
you can't

1259
01:31:41.755 --> 01:31:46.494
sell it twice. Right? Like, you you make the the the money on that unit sale.

1260
01:31:47.160 --> 01:31:59.980
So, you know, I can't just go LARP like all the Pubcos do about, like, the fossil wash everything. Right? Oh, look. We're open sourcing this. We're open sourcing that. Why, like, 90% of their shit that actually makes money is all closed source.

1261
01:32:00.525 --> 01:32:01.905
Yep. Like, very close.

1262
01:32:02.285 --> 01:32:08.625
So, you know, we we don't get to LARP because part of our security model is the source being available to the user,

1263
01:32:09.485 --> 01:32:10.945
in its entirety. Right?

1264
01:32:11.565 --> 01:32:13.440
So so that was the solution we found.

1265
01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:17.219
And it worked. And people are okay with it, and our users

1266
01:32:17.520 --> 01:32:19.280
are fine with it. And,

1267
01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:20.820
and it works.

1268
01:32:22.800 --> 01:32:24.340
I think in Rob's case,

1269
01:32:24.640 --> 01:32:26.260
you know, it's not too dissimilar.

1270
01:32:27.245 --> 01:32:30.305
I think they they built a a decent chunk of IP there.

1271
01:32:31.245 --> 01:32:37.425
I think a lot of people asking them to to open source it are asking just because they don't wanna fucking do any work themselves,

1272
01:32:39.290 --> 01:32:40.750
which is often the case.

1273
01:32:41.370 --> 01:32:44.030
I mean, but that's not my ask. I mean,

1274
01:32:45.770 --> 01:32:47.469
I mean, my argument with

1275
01:32:48.250 --> 01:32:55.755
since since Rob brought it up so we're it's not like it's not like we're talking behind his back. He brought it up. My opinion is

1276
01:32:56.375 --> 01:33:04.075
is that the real defensible moat and also as an anchor watch investor, the real defensible moat for anchor watch I'm also an anchor watch investor.

1277
01:33:05.255 --> 01:33:08.235
Every case is a quiet angel in a bunch of businesses.

1278
01:33:11.989 --> 01:33:18.070
The the moat is the Lloyd's of London relationship. Like, you can't fork a Lloyd's of London relationship. You can't. You absolutely

1279
01:33:18.469 --> 01:33:19.530
it's gonna happen.

1280
01:33:20.070 --> 01:33:27.915
But it's the it's the insurance aspect is the actual like, that's the business. Like, at the very least, I mean, they should be

1281
01:33:28.615 --> 01:33:30.955
now we're moving the goalpost. They should at least be MITCC

1282
01:33:31.895 --> 01:33:35.115
so people can verify what's going on in the software stack.

1283
01:33:36.215 --> 01:33:37.255
But I think that's

1284
01:33:37.690 --> 01:33:42.030
his business is one of those where you could get away probably with going full MIT

1285
01:33:42.730 --> 01:33:48.429
and then having the mode on the service side. Hey, Rob. That is not bullish enough on Trident.

1286
01:33:50.265 --> 01:33:50.765
What?

1287
01:33:51.225 --> 01:33:53.725
It's the mode. It's fantastic piece of software.

1288
01:33:54.265 --> 01:33:58.844
Okay. Fair enough. Well, I'm glad you're I'm glad you're so bullish on my investment.

1289
01:34:00.665 --> 01:34:04.200
No. I I, you know, I have a feeling that, like, you know,

1290
01:34:04.600 --> 01:34:10.540
when when he makes business sense for Rob, he'll probably like, maybe maybe even becomes fully open. Right?

1291
01:34:11.320 --> 01:34:14.620
It's hard for a start up, and and we have to to be

1292
01:34:15.160 --> 01:34:16.380
graceful with

1293
01:34:16.695 --> 01:34:17.195
young

1294
01:34:17.815 --> 01:34:22.235
startups and let them do their thing without too much of the the people bullshit.

1295
01:34:22.615 --> 01:34:36.100
Because, you know, like, in a startup, like, you know, like, you're gonna pivot 50 times. Right? You you don't know what's gonna be the most. You don't know Yeah. How things are gonna play out. So so, like, let them be and let them build their business,

1296
01:34:36.640 --> 01:34:38.340
without all this calming influence.

1297
01:34:40.320 --> 01:34:41.540
No. I mean, I agree.

1298
01:34:42.800 --> 01:34:43.940
I I definitely,

1299
01:34:45.585 --> 01:34:48.725
do not tell founders how to run their business.

1300
01:34:49.185 --> 01:34:55.205
I do have strong opinions strongly held, but, I don't Oh, I never thought of that. Their business.

1301
01:34:55.745 --> 01:34:57.205
And, I think,

1302
01:34:57.665 --> 01:35:00.540
no matter how you cut it, it's impossible for an investor

1303
01:35:01.580 --> 01:35:05.600
communist recommendation considering they're a fucking investor in the business.

1304
01:35:06.780 --> 01:35:07.280
But

1305
01:35:07.820 --> 01:35:08.560
I digress.

1306
01:35:10.220 --> 01:35:13.040
Like, you know, I think yeah. So so,

1307
01:35:14.045 --> 01:35:16.784
you know, I I think it's it's, it's nonnegotiable.

1308
01:35:17.485 --> 01:35:29.180
The protocols must be fully open source. Like Right. Free as free as in in freedom, open source. Okay? Like, protocols must be fully open source. There there is no it's nonnegotiable.

1309
01:35:29.800 --> 01:35:31.340
It's Ignoster, Bitcoin,

1310
01:35:32.120 --> 01:35:35.740
you know. And it's not a fucking bullshit GPL. It's actual MIT.

1311
01:35:36.120 --> 01:35:48.615
Right? Right. So people can No restrictions. Exactly. People can take that code and go in private and do their own solutions. Otherwise, things never take off. You cannot have a protocol that's GPL. It doesn't take off.

1312
01:35:49.075 --> 01:35:49.575
Okay?

1313
01:35:51.075 --> 01:35:51.575
Now

1314
01:35:52.035 --> 01:35:54.120
the stuff that's running on top of it,

1315
01:35:54.680 --> 01:35:58.860
as long as it respects the open layer, right, with open standards,

1316
01:36:00.280 --> 01:36:03.260
with with open ways of of resolving things,

1317
01:36:03.800 --> 01:36:13.225
then then then we're in a good place. I mean, is it nicer that there is a lot of free open source out there? Absolutely. You know, we do a ton of it, contrary to, some of the haters.

1318
01:36:14.565 --> 01:36:19.065
You know, we we actually are partial to making things public domain when they are open source.

1319
01:36:21.045 --> 01:36:21.525
And,

1320
01:36:22.165 --> 01:36:25.145
you know, it's just it's just sometimes the business requires,

1321
01:36:25.790 --> 01:36:32.450
you know, some less nice thing in order to exist. But what you rather have, that business existing or not having that piece of software?

1322
01:36:35.150 --> 01:36:35.969
Fair enough.

1323
01:36:41.085 --> 01:36:42.225
What is

1324
01:36:42.605 --> 01:36:43.505
your response

1325
01:36:43.965 --> 01:36:44.465
to,

1326
01:36:45.245 --> 01:36:47.425
while we're on the topic, to individuals

1327
01:36:48.045 --> 01:36:49.185
that might say,

1328
01:36:52.020 --> 01:36:52.840
your choice

1329
01:36:53.220 --> 01:36:53.720
to,

1330
01:36:55.300 --> 01:36:56.840
commercially restrict the license

1331
01:36:58.020 --> 01:36:59.240
of cold card,

1332
01:37:00.820 --> 01:37:01.880
is a conflict

1333
01:37:02.260 --> 01:37:05.880
with your participation on the board of OpenSats where we fund

1334
01:37:06.180 --> 01:37:07.080
FOSS projects.

1335
01:37:08.885 --> 01:37:10.905
So what is it? Like, 95,

1336
01:37:10.965 --> 01:37:13.705
90 nine percent of all the money comes from non

1337
01:37:14.485 --> 01:37:15.785
open source profit?

1338
01:37:17.045 --> 01:37:19.145
What do you mean? Is the money a conflict?

1339
01:37:20.020 --> 01:37:23.640
Like, the source money. So so all the money that comes

1340
01:37:24.180 --> 01:37:24.680
into

1341
01:37:25.540 --> 01:37:29.000
funding open source comes from not open source

1342
01:37:29.780 --> 01:37:30.280
business.

1343
01:37:32.095 --> 01:37:35.715
Right? So the people who profited from non open source businesses

1344
01:37:36.735 --> 01:37:40.195
donated all that money to be open source. I'm donating my fucking time

1345
01:37:42.095 --> 01:37:54.520
to that, and I probably contribute more to open source than most of the people who LARP and complain about it. But let's not even get into that. No. I mean, I was I was just giving you I was giving you an opportunity to defend yourself while you're on,

1346
01:37:54.900 --> 01:38:02.375
you know, one of the most listened to shows in Bitcoin. It is probably the most listened to show. I I will just say I will just say that,

1347
01:38:04.355 --> 01:38:11.335
you're I mean, adding you to the board of open SaaS was massive win for us. Like, you're such you have so much experience in the space.

1348
01:38:12.429 --> 01:38:14.130
You have very strong opinions.

1349
01:38:16.110 --> 01:38:18.989
You actually do the work and the review, and,

1350
01:38:20.030 --> 01:38:25.809
I mean, I'm I'm incredibly grateful to have you on the team. Like, I we could not do what we do

1351
01:38:26.265 --> 01:38:28.045
at the scale that we do it.

1352
01:38:28.905 --> 01:38:32.605
Listen. I I think there's just giving you the to be able the opportunity.

1353
01:38:33.145 --> 01:38:39.630
I really feel privileged to be on there and be able to to do the work there. It's very important work,

1354
01:38:40.590 --> 01:38:41.310
and it's,

1355
01:38:41.790 --> 01:38:47.730
it it really is a privilege to be able to to, you know, have tens of millions of dollars to, like, fund

1356
01:38:49.070 --> 01:38:52.850
fund people who are gonna go do the work without having to restrict their licenses.

1357
01:38:54.750 --> 01:38:55.250
Exactly.

1358
01:38:58.405 --> 01:39:04.105
It's pretty cool to fucking see. Yeah. People should really apply more. We we need more applications,

1359
01:39:04.485 --> 01:39:05.945
especially privacy applications.

1360
01:39:07.125 --> 01:39:09.465
Donate more. Opensats.org.

1361
01:39:10.230 --> 01:39:15.130
If you wanna apply or donate, we could always use more donations. It all goes into Bitcoin.

1362
01:39:16.469 --> 01:39:18.030
It all it's all held in multisend.

1363
01:39:18.469 --> 01:39:21.050
$0. It's the most sort of, like, retarded

1364
01:39:21.765 --> 01:39:26.185
org in the universe. I don't think there is any other, like, that this scale,

1365
01:39:26.965 --> 01:39:28.505
fully pass through organization.

1366
01:39:29.445 --> 01:39:33.864
We only get headaches and joy. We get, like, zero money.

1367
01:39:34.324 --> 01:39:37.465
There's no money in T shirts. We have no T shirts.

1368
01:39:38.220 --> 01:39:51.435
Yeah. No. I mean, jokes aside, we have a separate operations budget, but it's very it's very lean, and you have to donate to that operations budget specifically for us to have that. We take zero and and in the a world of many scam charities Yeah.

1369
01:39:51.995 --> 01:39:58.735
I think it's a breath of fresh air. We cannot buy hats with the logo from the main fund. That's howling it is.

1370
01:40:00.395 --> 01:40:02.175
Yeah. We should have hats, though.

1371
01:40:02.875 --> 01:40:06.815
How about hats? Donate hats to us? Some hats. I'll fund hats Yeah. Myself.

1372
01:40:08.430 --> 01:40:11.250
Yeah. That's I just started printing my own merch now.

1373
01:40:12.510 --> 01:40:17.010
Welcome to the club, Matt. I think million better than you just do yourself.

1374
01:40:18.270 --> 01:40:19.730
I think million is,

1375
01:40:21.315 --> 01:40:25.815
like, he's half proud, half resentful that I just print primal shit.

1376
01:40:26.675 --> 01:40:28.935
Just like walk around the skills

1377
01:40:29.315 --> 01:40:30.135
are, like

1378
01:40:31.235 --> 01:40:31.735
Questionable?

1379
01:40:32.355 --> 01:40:35.420
I I would say, like, there is a lot of love in what you

1380
01:40:44.600 --> 01:40:48.140
produce. Well, it is what it is. They're good hats.

1381
01:40:51.795 --> 01:40:52.295
Anyway,

1382
01:40:53.715 --> 01:40:56.055
before we wrap, one last question for you.

1383
01:40:56.595 --> 01:40:57.975
What can we do to

1384
01:40:58.595 --> 01:41:00.215
increase self custody usage?

1385
01:41:02.035 --> 01:41:02.535
It's,

1386
01:41:03.155 --> 01:41:04.855
you know, like, you you can't

1387
01:41:05.235 --> 01:41:05.735
skip

1388
01:41:06.290 --> 01:41:07.670
the knowledge part.

1389
01:41:08.130 --> 01:41:12.950
So if you're not gonna take the time to uncle gym people and actually help them learn,

1390
01:41:13.410 --> 01:41:17.830
okay, it's not gonna happen. Okay? They're gonna be stuck on Coinbase

1391
01:41:18.425 --> 01:41:20.605
or they're gonna be in a semi custodial,

1392
01:41:20.985 --> 01:41:22.205
slightly better solution,

1393
01:41:22.825 --> 01:41:27.405
and they'll get rugged eventually or they'll lose coins because they're not gonna know what they're doing.

1394
01:41:28.265 --> 01:41:30.810
Okay? And and eventually, they just lose the money.

1395
01:41:31.610 --> 01:41:32.110
Okay.

1396
01:41:32.730 --> 01:41:36.110
You have to take people through the learning process.

1397
01:41:36.650 --> 01:41:37.550
There's no alternative.

1398
01:41:40.810 --> 01:41:44.190
I mean, you or you could just have them get a big key.

1399
01:41:46.014 --> 01:41:47.554
You just don't have to deal with

1400
01:41:50.894 --> 01:41:58.755
that. But, no, jokes aside, I agree. I mean, look. It's gonna it's always gonna be the more difficult path. Like, it's gonna take personal responsibility on both sides.

1401
01:41:59.739 --> 01:42:04.239
I think one cool thing about Bitcoin is there is a desire for a lot of people to,

1402
01:42:05.980 --> 01:42:13.360
wanna have And it's okay. There's people who don't want to. There's people who don't wanna be saved. I mean, all Canada, they want to have fun staying poor. So,

1403
01:42:14.025 --> 01:42:20.845
you know, it's like whole countries wanna have fun staying poor. So, you know, what are you gonna do? Camp Forest Fair enough.

1404
01:42:22.985 --> 01:42:26.205
Freaks. I am continuing the streak that we're on

1405
01:42:26.505 --> 01:42:29.005
next Tuesday at twenty one hundred UTC.

1406
01:42:29.840 --> 01:42:31.460
I'm having Steven Pollock,

1407
01:42:31.840 --> 01:42:33.380
from the Bitcoin Policy Institute

1408
01:42:34.800 --> 01:42:35.860
on the show.

1409
01:42:38.719 --> 01:42:42.179
He's never been on the show before. I don't think he's ever been on a podcast before.

1410
01:42:42.855 --> 01:42:49.435
So I'm pretty excited about it. We've had Bitcoin Policy Institute shows in the past, but, we've never had Steven on. So it'll be a fun rip.

1411
01:42:50.535 --> 01:42:53.275
Yes. When you when you come in to a Bitcoin review?

1412
01:42:55.590 --> 01:42:58.090
I I mean, when are you gonna invite me back on?

1413
01:42:58.710 --> 01:42:59.610
Next one.

1414
01:43:01.350 --> 01:43:04.630
To be fair, every k does invite me a lot, and I just always

1415
01:43:06.755 --> 01:43:12.054
after doing, like, the first eleven shows with him, I've been kind of I don't blame you.

1416
01:43:12.994 --> 01:43:22.650
I really don't You know, the original shows are still on this feed. Like, when people get onboarded to dispatch, if they go back from the beginning and they start listening from the beginning, they actually have scamming my

1417
01:43:23.210 --> 01:43:29.630
show? I'm doing the opposite. I'm giving you should be paying me you should be paying me for the people I send your way.

1418
01:43:30.090 --> 01:43:39.085
You're the one scamming me in this situation. I'm very confused about the scamming direction of this, Oh, yeah. I'll come on I'm happy to come on I'll come on the next one. I'm happy to come on the next show.

1419
01:43:40.425 --> 01:43:45.645
And then I have the week after that, I already have planned, which is, like, pretty impressive for me.

1420
01:43:46.905 --> 01:43:48.125
And that's gonna be,

1421
01:43:48.505 --> 01:43:49.005
VNPRC.

1422
01:43:50.310 --> 01:43:53.210
We're gonna talk hash pools. Pretty excited about that. Nice.

1423
01:43:53.590 --> 01:43:57.770
Is there a are you planning any shows on dry markets anytime soon?

1424
01:44:00.310 --> 01:44:00.810
No.

1425
01:44:01.590 --> 01:44:02.490
But I should.

1426
01:44:02.865 --> 01:44:03.605
Why are you?

1427
01:44:05.025 --> 01:44:14.325
I mean, we always mention stuff, but my show feel like it's stalled. Is too boring, dude. We have no reach. We're like it's like, my show is for, like, nerds who wanna fall asleep.

1428
01:44:14.705 --> 01:44:17.365
Okay? We're not It's not for reach. It's just cope.

1429
01:44:17.989 --> 01:44:23.290
It's it's stalled a little join market's stalled a little bit. Maybe I'll I'll have Waxwing on. He's very

1430
01:44:24.230 --> 01:44:27.530
vocal on, Noster the volume is happening. Which I appreciate him.

1431
01:44:27.830 --> 01:44:29.130
The volume is happening.

1432
01:44:31.235 --> 01:44:35.014
I mean, hopefully, in the next few weeks, we free samurai, which would be fucking massive.

1433
01:44:35.395 --> 01:44:36.935
I feel like the tide is turning.

1434
01:44:37.474 --> 01:44:42.855
I've, I've been, I'm gonna say this out loud. I've been, I've been lobbying Craig to add,

1435
01:44:43.670 --> 01:44:44.889
joint market UI.

1436
01:44:45.750 --> 01:44:49.770
No. He's never gonna he's so broken now. He's never he's never gonna do it. What a word.

1437
01:44:51.030 --> 01:44:53.130
He's so broken now. Poor Craig.

1438
01:44:55.270 --> 01:44:56.235
He should, though.

1439
01:44:56.795 --> 01:45:02.155
Dude, gem is node. No. Not gonna happen. Gem is node.js.

1440
01:45:02.155 --> 01:45:03.135
Not gonna happen.

1441
01:45:04.875 --> 01:45:07.295
So you don't like gem? You just use the Windows,

1442
01:45:08.074 --> 01:45:08.574
GUI?

1443
01:45:09.435 --> 01:45:09.935
Terminal.

1444
01:45:13.390 --> 01:45:20.130
I just always I just, like, always invent, like, who is the user who is the user that's using the join market Windows GUI?

1445
01:45:20.430 --> 01:45:39.804
Like, who is that person? I mean, there is a lot of people who use Windows, man. I mean, the is still making I mean, they have user space, plugins now. I know. But, like, they're they're also using join market. Like, they have to get to the point where they're, like, they're gonna use join market, but then they're also using the window because that's the only GUI they have besides Jam.

1446
01:45:40.190 --> 01:45:42.770
But you don't need the GUI Linux or Mac GUI.

1447
01:45:43.150 --> 01:45:46.050
You don't need the GUI for dry markets. You can just do it on terminal.

1448
01:45:46.830 --> 01:45:48.290
No. The Zoomers don't.

1449
01:45:49.070 --> 01:45:51.010
Anyway It's a pain in the ass.

1450
01:45:55.195 --> 01:46:03.295
We'll get we'll get there. We're making progress. Progress is being made. We just need to keep the momentum up and Yes. I think we're trending in the right direction.

1451
01:46:03.995 --> 01:46:06.735
Enrique, you got any final thoughts for the freaks before we wrap?

1452
01:46:07.380 --> 01:46:10.920
No. Thanks for having me. It's, it is an honor

1453
01:46:11.380 --> 01:46:14.760
to be on the the most watched Bitcoin show in Bitcoin,

1454
01:46:15.700 --> 01:46:18.360
and, it's always fun to, to hang, man.

1455
01:46:19.575 --> 01:46:20.395
Yeah. Likewise.

1456
01:46:21.015 --> 01:46:23.355
Thank you for your service, and thank you for joining us.

1457
01:46:24.455 --> 01:46:25.114
You said

1458
01:46:28.614 --> 01:46:35.480
you said you like the Bitcoin Bugle Guys. You're you're a fan of the Bitcoin Bugle Guys? I like the Bugle. I like the PodConf,

1459
01:46:35.780 --> 01:46:37.160
which I'm never approved.

1460
01:46:40.020 --> 01:46:42.040
I I like the Bitcoin comedy, man.

1461
01:46:43.140 --> 01:46:45.160
I I miss the the hardcore,

1462
01:46:45.940 --> 01:46:46.920
Bitcoin uncensored.

1463
01:46:47.285 --> 01:46:49.625
You know? Go out there and be cringe people.

1464
01:46:50.325 --> 01:46:51.225
Yeah. I agree.

1465
01:46:52.005 --> 01:46:53.625
They made something. I think

1466
01:46:54.165 --> 01:46:56.025
I think they're making fun of me.

1467
01:46:57.365 --> 01:47:02.265
It's hard to tell. It's always hard to tell. I can never tell if they're making fun of me or not.

1468
01:47:02.910 --> 01:47:06.370
I'm I'm pretty sure they're making fun of me, but I feel compelled to,

1469
01:47:10.190 --> 01:47:12.690
have it ingrained in the feed forever. So,

1470
01:47:13.550 --> 01:47:19.305
with that, Enrique, thank you for joining us. Huge shout out to Bitcoin Bugle for this this masterpiece.

1471
01:47:27.525 --> 01:47:31.100
Used to spend my nights in watching

1472
01:47:33.320 --> 01:47:37.500
Netflix Trailer Park Boys was my favorite show

1473
01:47:38.440 --> 01:47:40.140
Fixed my incentives

1474
01:47:40.840 --> 01:47:42.860
Now I can't afford taxes

1475
01:47:43.800 --> 01:47:45.740
Forty hours per week

1476
01:47:46.125 --> 01:47:47.824
Oh, how I've grown,

1477
01:47:48.125 --> 01:47:49.985
listening to sick to death

1478
01:47:50.364 --> 01:47:50.864
dispatch,

1479
01:47:53.005 --> 01:47:56.385
or my fave rabbit hole recap.

1480
01:47:57.885 --> 01:48:00.065
You give me some what

1481
01:48:00.630 --> 01:48:01.610
Bitcoin did.

1482
01:48:02.390 --> 01:48:04.410
I'll listen to that signal.

1483
01:48:04.870 --> 01:48:06.730
It's my thinking cap.

1484
01:48:08.070 --> 01:48:11.930
I've looked for macro in all the same places,

1485
01:48:13.364 --> 01:48:15.224
Found the Fiat podcast

1486
01:48:15.525 --> 01:48:16.025
analysis

1487
01:48:16.405 --> 01:48:17.304
so dry.

1488
01:48:17.925 --> 01:48:19.145
But when I found

1489
01:48:19.525 --> 01:48:22.025
Lynn Alden, I didn't waste

1490
01:48:23.284 --> 01:48:26.889
it because there's nothing like her post to get me

1491
01:48:27.429 --> 01:48:27.929
high.

1492
01:48:28.469 --> 01:48:29.770
Listening to Sittypilled

1493
01:48:30.710 --> 01:48:31.210
dispatch

1494
01:48:33.429 --> 01:48:36.730
or my favorite rabbit hole recap.

1495
01:48:38.389 --> 01:48:40.329
You give me some what

1496
01:48:41.005 --> 01:48:42.145
Bitcoin did.

1497
01:48:42.765 --> 01:48:47.345
I will listen to that. All that signal that's a fact.

1498
01:48:48.685 --> 01:48:51.185
Listening to sit to tell dispatch

1499
01:48:53.725 --> 01:48:56.385
or my favorite rabbit hole

1500
01:49:16.275 --> 01:49:17.735
gap. Get my signal

1501
01:49:18.035 --> 01:49:19.094
from podcast.

1502
01:49:19.795 --> 01:49:20.295
Listen.

1503
01:49:21.155 --> 01:49:21.655
Podcast.

1504
01:49:22.275 --> 01:49:22.775
Listen.

1505
01:49:24.219 --> 01:49:25.280
Podcast listening.

1506
01:49:26.540 --> 01:49:29.360
Get my signal from podcast

1507
01:49:29.820 --> 01:49:30.320
listening.

1508
01:49:31.260 --> 01:49:31.760
Podcast

1509
01:49:32.460 --> 01:49:32.960
listening.

1510
01:49:33.580 --> 01:49:34.330
Podcast listening.

1511
01:49:57.989 --> 01:49:58.889
Love you, freaks.

1512
01:50:01.190 --> 01:50:07.025
Stay humble, stack stats. Go to coinkite.com if you wanna buy a cold card. Go to bugle.news

1513
01:50:07.324 --> 01:50:15.105
if you liked that jam and want to read high quality journalism in the Bitcoin space. Love you all. See you next week. Peace.