CD156: EVAN KALOUDIS - ZEUS AND CASHU

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 04/23/2025 02:37:44
Duration: 5894.72
Channels: 1

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A lot of green on the screen today as you know. However,

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you probably didn't look at Bitcoin.

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Tenea McHale did, and she's here. It's up 3%.

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What do you make of the way that this has been trading? It's decoupled obviously from the Nasdaq, which was a trend for a while. How do you see it? Something that people were looking for all month because if you go back to earlier this month, it really was trading in line with stocks. It just was not seeing the big, you know, pops and drops,

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that one, we're used to seeing out of Bitcoin. And two, it is outperforming the S and P. It has not really caught up with gold, the, you know, leading safe haven. But, I think you are seeing evidence not just

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I think that the

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obvious and easy narrative would be that we're talking about Fed independence today. So Bitcoin is kind of acting as that hedge against, you know, political uncertainty. But I also think that it's not just enthusiasm. It's also a exhaustion. You're seeing people investors wanting to, you know, get back into risk, but just maybe not the type of risk that's tied to earnings or head policy. You got a quick thought? I do. Look. You've got a president who's very interested, and his family's very interested in Bitcoin doing well, crypto doing well. And I think you're close to regulation

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or some positive announcements on policy, and that's what's driving it. It's evidence Bitcoin's support of nature is evidence that we have not had a deleveraging event. Because you have a deleveraging event, everything's going down. Well, it has underperformed the S and P and Nasdaq overall since the peak. Recently, though, to your point, it is trading pretty well up from 82 just a week and a half or two weeks ago. Real quick last thought. I think one of the hardest things for investors is to wrap their heads around the fact that day to day, it does trade like a risk asset, but medium long term, it trades like as,

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like a safe haven. If you look at gold outperformance, that kind of, you know, can act as an indicator of where Bitcoin heads when the dust kinda settles.

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Happy Bitcoin

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Wednesday,

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freaks. Tuesday.

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It's Tuesday.

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It's your host, Odell, here for another civil dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro was CNBC.

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They called Bitcoin a safe haven. They said the decoupling word

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feels like a moment in time. Who the hell knows?

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I have a great guest here, but before I get to that, dispatch as always

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is not funded by ads. We do not have any ads or sponsors. We are funded by stats from you guys, from our loving audience, the ride or die freaks. Thank you for supporting the show. Two ways of doing that. You can do that in podcasting two point o apps like Fountain Podcasts,

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or you can do that by joining us in the live stream where the freaks dwell at silldispatch.com/stream

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and sending zaps.

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We have

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a great live audience today, and someone has just proven that zaps work. Thank you, Sasha, and with a hundred sats. The largest boost of last week was from Rod Palmer,

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journalist at Google News.

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He zapped 21,000

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sats, and he said, Odell isn't grumpy. I will die on this hill. Thank you for dying on the hill. I appreciate you, with a huge smile on my face. Anyway, with all that said, we have returned guest, Evan Kaludis. This is twelfth appearance on Civil Dispatch.

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We don't have to explain to him how the show works. How's it going, Evan? Pretty good, Matt. Feels good to be back.

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Number 12.

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Pretty crazy.

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It's a little excessive.

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When am I gonna start saying no to your invitations?

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Well, we took a break a little bit so people would forget about you to bring it back and add some spice to the show. You know, Evan actually

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one when I used to do this weekly

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before I got completely overwhelmed,

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I had to miss a week, but we wanted the trend to continue. So Evan actually hosted a dispatch without me.

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That's that's how much of a return guest he is.

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There we go. So, yeah. Just,

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let's, let's not do that again.

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You you gotta keep the strong yourself. But, We didn't we we didn't narrate her. We didn't do it again. We just did that once, but it was great. I appreciated it. I do I am trying to keep the streak alive again

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going into this next bull cycle. We do have NVK

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joining us next Wednesday at twenty one hundred UTC.

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And, I'm pretty excited for that conversation. But, anyway, Evan,

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now we have Mav twenty one zapped.

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19

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7 60 sets.

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Thank you, Mav. Appreciate

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the support. Weird. Why why did you choose that number? I don't know.

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But, I feel like it has importance.

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Anyway,

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Evan, you're the creator of Zeus.

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We will be talking about Zeus today. I I don't know if any freaks are listening that don't know what Zeus is, but why don't we start

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with a brief explanation

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about

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why zoo what is Zeus? Why Zeus? Why should people care?

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Hit us.

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Sure thing. So in a nutshell, I would say Zeus is

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at least it's up there with the most powerful

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mobile Bitcoin wallet in the world.

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You have, like, a crazy feature set,

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immense amount of flexibility from whether you're web just getting started

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to the

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power user Cypherpunk that's connecting to their own node, managing their lightning node liquidity on the go.

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And we're trying to reach every user in between.

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Love it. I mean, the way I like to look at it is

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if I lost

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access

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to all software except for

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three pieces of software in my Bitcoin journey.

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What do I need? I need Bitcoin Core, Sparrow, and Zeus. It's the

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pinnacle toolkit right there. So thank you for

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making it all possible.

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What can I say? That's amazing company.

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Yeah. Just, just very humbled to hear that. Thank you.

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So Zeus. If you haven't used Zeus yet, Zeus is a mobile wallet,

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and it basically aims to be your everything and anything lightning wallet

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on mobile.

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And it's come a long way. I mean, originally,

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it started as

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purely a way to connect to your own node running at home or on a server, but

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most people were at home. They would be running, like, a start nine or something at home, and they'd connect their Zeus back

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to to remote control it because you're not, like, traveling around with your node to, like, pay for things.

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Right.

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Yeah. Back then Yeah. Go on. Back then, it was just I was getting my lightning node started. I set up my

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Raspberry Pi three. I was on lightning. I had, like, you know, maybe five channels.

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And, you know, there was nowhere in the city when I was, you know, back in New York to pay.

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So I was just checking in on my routing, making sure everything was still running, see if I collected a couple sats from being in between.

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And, yeah, it just sort of evolved from there. Over time, we added support for more interfaces.

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So it started with L and D connected core lightning node.

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We added support for some other interfaces like L and D Hub.

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And then, you know, more recently, the last year and a half, when we started working on it full time, we added a full wallet, a note in the phone,

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lightning address service,

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LSP services. We've got

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three going on four now. So you could purchase channels, get connected to the lightning net network with ease.

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We've developed specs now for renewing those channels.

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And then we've got a massive new release coming out the door

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that's gonna have support for Cashew eCash.

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We are gearing up to release our swap service so you could swap between phones on chain and on lightning without having to close or open channels necessarily.

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And we're gearing up for our one point o release by the end of the year.

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So

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it's a very, very busy year, but, you know, a lot to be excited about, a lot to catch up on.

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So in developer communities, there's different thoughts behind one point o releases.

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You're aware you can just

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you can just make a one point o release. Right?

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Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I I could go the route and do 90 nine point

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nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine 99 nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine 9999999 nine 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

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You never hit one point o. Yeah. It's at

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makes sense to, like, demark something.

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And, You can just do the Bitcoin core approach, and you can just skip, like, one through twenty five. When did they start? Like, at twenty six or something? Yeah. I think at 24, they went from o point

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two

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to 24 o, which is an awesome approach too. I've definitely thought about it. Maybe it won't be Zeus one point o. Maybe it'll be Zeus 12 o. And you guys will be like, wow.

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It's been a while that and you'll really software,

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which is also a crazy thing about. It's been six years of putting this, app out.

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Dude, that's crazy.

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Impressive.

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You deserve

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you deserve a lot more credit than you get.

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What a grind.

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Okay. So last time I had you on the show appearance 11,

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I think we had you had just launched note in a phone. I remember the memes going around that the note is in the phone.

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You launched the light mode, and you launched the lightning address,

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support

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for receive.

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Yeah.

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And so since then,

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the big release

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is well, so first of all, let's how is that going? How's the note on the phone thing going? How it was a little bit controversial how you were doing the lightning addresses.

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Yeah. That's the same thing. Let's do a debrief on that. Like, how how is everything going with the the light node?

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Okay. So on the light node front,

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we've had some really good results.

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Just in terms of the feature set, you know, it's sort of peerless having that full LND node in the phone.

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On the other side of things, we have had some difficulties with how we fetch our blocks.

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So the Neutrino back end is fantastic privacy wise because you can't really know what a peer is querying for.

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However, if you're in an environment with, like, a really high ping time, like, not great Internet, so just note in the phone doesn't work too hot.

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So with that caveat,

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you know, I'd say it works really well, but we still need to check that issue off so we could make sure that people even, you know, in low quality Internet areas can still use this. So that's gonna be a big

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focus for us after the 11 o release to tackle.

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Other than that, it's been

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quite tough. Gonna solve that? Are you just gonna do Electrum server? Or

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Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, like a lot of the features in Zeus, we like to give people optionality.

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Obviously, we don't wanna rug

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the people who for which Neutrino works well for.

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But on startup,

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I think it makes sense to ask. There's hey. Would you like to have the more private,

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maybe less reliable option?

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Maybe do, like, a speed test as we're getting set up, or do you want the less private,

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but more reliable, quicker option?

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And, you know, I think if we have that in there, that solves, like, 90% of our troubleshooting cases.

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So that'll be exciting to put together. And, we have a bit of a prototype. It's still a little early,

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but, we're gonna try to submit that upstream to L and D, which is very exciting.

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Can you just explain

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really quick to the freaks how Neutrino works? Because I think it's fascinating.

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Yeah. So, it's BIP one fifty

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seven one fifty eight.

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It's called block filters.

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And instead of requesting,

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like, a query putting in a query for, like, your address, like, Electrum, you'll put in a query

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for,

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you know, an address to try to get the balance for it. Or you're you'll ask for, like, a specific block.

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But with Neutrino, you're asking for, like, groups of blocks,

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in this sort of random cadence. And

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it's more demanding.

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It's more resource intensive for your node in the phone to figure out which blocks to ask for so it's sufficiently randomized. It also takes more, you know, networking resources. You're pulling down more data.

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But,

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someone running one of these Neutrino servers

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can't really ascertain, like, what you're looking for, who you are, what your transactions are. They can't really link

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your IP that's requesting this data to, you know, your

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private

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Bitcoin, information.

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So, yeah, it's it's amazing in that regard,

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but the performance can be lacking depending on your Internet connection or where you are in the world, for sure.

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Would you

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does this example make sense to you that, like, if if you're using the traditional ELECTRA model, you're basically asking for a balance of an address. But if you use Neutrino, it's it's

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it's basically your phone is getting a summary of every block,

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like a condensed summary of every block in order to figure out what the balances are. Not every

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single block, but enough of a selection of randomized blocks in the mix

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so that it's, you know,

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very, very difficult for someone snooping in to piece together what you're actually asking for and what you're actually

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It's not every block?

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No.

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I was trying to So then how

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so wouldn't you have balanced mismatches if it's not every block?

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Well, you're grabbing

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not

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the entire

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block contents, but you're grabbing the headers of each and every single one. So you'll grab the

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so that everything adds up with the hashes.

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And then from there, you can you're querying for Right.

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Blocks

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with that random algorithm.

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That are relevant for you? Yeah.

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With with others mixed in so that you don't know which ones are yours? Exactly. Exactly. Just sprinkling some

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some red herrings, stuff you

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don't really need to have, but to make it more difficult for someone who has, like, a passive listening connection, you know, or the host of these,

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instances.

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And and

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the wallet that really championed this at first was Wasabi.

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Yeah. Has are there any other main mainstream wallets that are using Neutrino right now

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besides you?

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No. Not really.

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We know the LDK guys have been interested in it and could potentially add it on the line.

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You know, it's it's really

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mostly been used by LND, the Wasabi guys. So LND variant wallets, like Blix Wallet use it.

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Breeze, the, you know, the first version,

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I don't think the new version

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uses it.

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So, yeah, it's quite limited, which is quite unfortunate because the privacy properties are, you know, they're they're peerless. They're so hard to beat.

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Well, the main argument against it historically has been

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that it's heavy for mobile. Right?

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Yeah. Which you kinda just admitted.

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Yeah. Yeah. You use more networking data. So it is a trade off. And,

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you know, we're sort of leaning into this ethos in our tagline.

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It's Bitcoin payments your way

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at Zeus. So we don't expect everyone to be using Bitcoin the same exact way. And

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if you do and people are using it in a way that doesn't line up with exactly how you use it, you're gonna have a bad time because Bitcoin is permissionless permissionless

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money. So,

216
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yeah, we're we're just trying to get this

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beautiful technology in the hands

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of as many people as possible.

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And I think that we're in a really unique position with Zeus with all these building blocks we've been putting together

220
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from, you know, the remote node, the node in the phone, CashewNow.

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And the way I like to think of it is, like, we could sort of become this,

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you know, Bitcoin Sherpa of sorts,

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where we're educating the users as they go along,

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give them the information they need to have to make these informed decisions,

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and sort of show them the way after meeting

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where they're at.

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Love it.

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That is always that's always been the dream for me. You know? One really well written wallet that, like, brings the user through the journey and kind

229
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of helps guide them. I like the term Sherpa. It makes a lot of sense to me.

230
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Okay. So let's talk about Cashew, and then we can jump into a bunch of other things.

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You were

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probably one of the world's

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loudest,

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most educated Cashew critics,

235
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for months.

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And then you bent the knee and integrated in integrated into Zeus.

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What's going on over there in your head? How do you think about Cashew?

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Do you want do you wanna apologize to Cali?

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Like, how are you how are you And he is he is really nice. He is a really nice guy about it.

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But, you know, I I think he's understood my perspective the whole way. You know, I remember us, you know, sitting out in Prague,

241
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for the conference out there and just, you know,

242
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sitting on some of the benches

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and just having, like, really passionate rant. I'm like,

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you

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know, ultimately,

246
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self custody is what Bitcoin is, like, half the value proposition.

247
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And,

248
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yeah, I was really going off on ECASH. I'm like, this is all

249
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bullshit compared to self custody. You know? It's it's could be a stepping stone, but, you know, we gotta get people on this. This is

250
00:19:23.179 --> 00:19:26.720
But, you know, Cali took you like a champ, and he understood what what I was,

251
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you know, going for.

252
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But, yeah, I mean,

253
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you know,

254
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my my perspective has really changed over time, especially considering,

255
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like, taking a deep look at how people are using Bitcoin today.

256
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You know, what's the world that we're in now? You know?

257
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The post ETF world,

258
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right,

259
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with the micro strategy bulls.

260
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You know, some of the discussions that you see online are ridiculous. They're like, what's your, what's your micro strategy to Bitcoin ratio? And they're like,

261
00:20:03.725 --> 00:20:06.544
bro, I can't be bothered to hold my own keys.

262
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I'm all in on micro strategy.

263
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Now this, like, new derivative, what's it called, Misty.

264
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M s t y.

265
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Yeah. So,

266
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it's that

267
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there's and there's certainly the difficulties

268
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that we've encountered

269
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with, you know, bringing people on and showing them how to run their own channels,

270
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learning all the ins and outs of,

271
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you know, managing your liquidity.

272
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Those are all very real things, and,

273
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you know,

274
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there's, like, huge

275
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gaps that you need to get there

276
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to that point in terms of education. Otherwise, you're gonna

277
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really struggle in a lot of different ways from inbound and outbound capacity to channel reserves

278
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to, you know, a close versus a forced close.

279
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And for a lot of people, like, that's still gonna be

280
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something that they wanna reach, and there's definitely benefits to doing it that way, but it's not gonna be for everyone.

281
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So to really expect everyone to be using Bitcoin the same way, it's

282
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a bit silly.

283
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At the same time, we did really see that with the LSB. It is so much easier

284
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to just have

285
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single channels, single relationship with this one entity that will connect it on the network

286
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and sort of a lot of the other challenges of, like, okay. Dude, is this channel good enough? Is this channel good enough?

287
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You know, there there's people that swear by our setup now and really appreciate it and enjoy using it just by having a singular channel with the Olympus node that we run.

288
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So

289
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Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

290
00:21:56.545 --> 00:22:03.840
So, I mean, I wanted to talk about Casio, but you brought this up. So can we just talk about this real quick? I you remember when

291
00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:05.920
Lightning was first proposed,

292
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the b cashers were like, this is just gonna turn into a hub and spoke system.

293
00:22:11.260 --> 00:22:14.080
And Oh, yeah. The the main the main

294
00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:16.400
critique of Lightning was that,

295
00:22:17.955 --> 00:22:19.955
I've noticed personally I mean,

296
00:22:20.674 --> 00:22:25.414
if the freaks go way back, if their true rider dies and they go back to, you know, episode two

297
00:22:26.115 --> 00:22:28.855
or episode one with Evan, I think you were the first

298
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I think you were the first ever dispatch.

299
00:22:32.679 --> 00:22:34.059
If not, you were number two.

300
00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:37.500
At that point, I had 200 channels on my node,

301
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:43.980
you know, where all the plugs were connecting with each other. We're we're I just lost a ton of money on on chain transactions.

302
00:22:44.360 --> 00:22:46.539
And now when people ask me, it's

303
00:22:47.245 --> 00:22:50.465
just one fat channel, maybe two if you want redundancy

304
00:22:50.924 --> 00:22:53.025
Yeah. With someone who's really well connected.

305
00:22:54.125 --> 00:22:56.625
So where the where the b cashers correct,

306
00:22:57.485 --> 00:23:02.940
is this the problem? Like, how do you how do you think about that? To a certain extent, they're right. I think there is a centralizing

307
00:23:03.320 --> 00:23:05.420
factor of having these hubs on lightning.

308
00:23:06.280 --> 00:23:10.700
But I think what's important is that you're able to route around these hubs.

309
00:23:11.080 --> 00:23:24.205
Right? It's to have that censorship resistance just like the Internet is built. Right? Like, if one hop on the Internet decides to start censoring traffic, you can route around it. And I think, importantly, Lightning has those censorship resistant properties,

310
00:23:24.825 --> 00:23:27.405
which is what we're really all in it for.

311
00:23:27.865 --> 00:23:29.005
We don't want these

312
00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:32.620
centralized hubs. It's it's not about, like,

313
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:34.140
the centralization

314
00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:35.100
isn't

315
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:37.420
the end to it. Right? It's like,

316
00:23:38.280 --> 00:23:43.900
what is the result that we wanna see? We want censorship resistance. And I think that we've proven over time

317
00:23:44.295 --> 00:23:50.555
that it's gonna be really damn hard to stop people from making the lightning network transaction they wanna make

318
00:23:51.255 --> 00:23:55.035
from the privacy properties that in are inherently built into it,

319
00:23:55.575 --> 00:23:59.835
but also the ease of use of just opening up channels to the peers that you wanna get to.

320
00:24:01.150 --> 00:24:08.050
Hell, even if you're going through those big hubs, you know how difficult it is to stop a transaction from being routed to someplace

321
00:24:09.230 --> 00:24:12.850
you don't want it to go if the user's putting together the path

322
00:24:13.685 --> 00:24:14.825
on their own device,

323
00:24:15.845 --> 00:24:16.665
it's impossible.

324
00:24:18.405 --> 00:24:25.625
So I would ask someone who's concerned about the centralizing factors of Lightning. It's like, what are you concerned about? To what end

325
00:24:26.485 --> 00:24:27.945
does this thing need to work?

326
00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:29.980
So,

327
00:24:30.919 --> 00:24:33.740
yes, there's definitely centralizing forces on lightning,

328
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:41.019
but what's it gonna do? It's it's gonna stop people from making those payments that they wanna make,

329
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:43.419
that they don't want you to make now.

330
00:24:45.035 --> 00:24:47.615
So your answer is that it is hub and spoke

331
00:24:47.915 --> 00:24:49.295
Yeah. But it's fine.

332
00:24:50.635 --> 00:24:51.135
Yeah.

333
00:24:52.395 --> 00:24:54.975
Yeah. I mean, I think that's my answer too. I'm just

334
00:24:57.195 --> 00:24:58.895
it's just interesting. Right?

335
00:24:59.330 --> 00:25:02.950
There's nothing to do I can have this conversation with, so I think it's kinda interesting.

336
00:25:03.330 --> 00:25:05.910
I mean, there's a lot of crazy dichotomies, and

337
00:25:06.530 --> 00:25:08.310
there's a lot of tensions that

338
00:25:08.690 --> 00:25:12.870
we need to face as we're trying to scale this technology to be used by,

339
00:25:14.054 --> 00:25:16.155
you know, billions of people on the planet.

340
00:25:16.695 --> 00:25:20.635
And, we gotta be honest with ourselves, but we also so gotta be,

341
00:25:21.655 --> 00:25:25.595
like, realistic and and pragmatic and and think about how these things work in practice.

342
00:25:26.179 --> 00:25:29.720
Right? Like, if we're just gonna sit on a pedestal and say, oh, you gotta

343
00:25:30.419 --> 00:25:34.520
run your note on tour and only connect to people that

344
00:25:35.059 --> 00:25:35.880
are nims

345
00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:42.755
and, you know, you're just gonna have a bad time. How do people use this in practice, and and what are the the end results?

346
00:25:43.775 --> 00:25:45.475
And, I yeah.

347
00:25:46.415 --> 00:25:51.555
Yeah. We just gotta be honest with ourselves about all of this then. So let me tell you

348
00:25:51.935 --> 00:25:56.355
let me tell you and all the freaks a little story just because I feel like you'd find it entertaining.

349
00:25:57.360 --> 00:25:58.660
So Mempool's cleared.

350
00:25:59.040 --> 00:25:59.940
Praise be.

351
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:01.940
And when that happened,

352
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:05.220
Bitcoin Park had

353
00:26:06.320 --> 00:26:09.940
maybe, like, 13 channels or 10 channels or something like that.

354
00:26:10.825 --> 00:26:12.445
And, you know, time is scarce.

355
00:26:13.144 --> 00:26:16.284
So I just went in there and just closed all the channels at once,

356
00:26:18.024 --> 00:26:19.725
and paid two sets per byte.

357
00:26:20.264 --> 00:26:23.164
And then mempool is filled up ever so briefly.

358
00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:24.580
And

359
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:33.300
during that process, I get a text message from Ron. He's like, Matt, the lightning note's down. I was like, no. It's not. It's fine. Everything's fine. It'll be back up in, like, ten minutes.

360
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:44.495
It took forty five minutes for the for the channel to get open, but now it's just one it's just one fat channel to async. That's it. I was like, don't worry. It's gonna be fine, and then it'll be better after that.

361
00:26:45.195 --> 00:26:47.375
And it's just one fat channel to async.

362
00:26:47.914 --> 00:26:48.414
The

363
00:26:49.195 --> 00:26:53.370
the cypherpunk dream is over, and now it's just beautiful hub and spoke

364
00:26:54.070 --> 00:27:01.290
hub and spoke system. Anyway, that's my story. Well, it does it doesn't necessarily have to be all like that. I think there's some nuance here we can go into.

365
00:27:01.910 --> 00:27:05.690
Right. I woulda opened it I woulda opened it to to your

366
00:27:06.485 --> 00:27:08.085
to to your hub, but,

367
00:27:09.365 --> 00:27:11.625
there's a channel capacity limit.

368
00:27:12.325 --> 00:27:17.305
Well, there's a channel capacity limit for people that we haven't whitelisted.

369
00:27:17.925 --> 00:27:27.300
So here's the funny thing. So for all the corporate peep, like, customers that we have for the Zeus wide service, you know, we help you get set up with lightning if they're doing high volume.

370
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.820
We typically set them up with a channel acceptor,

371
00:27:31.280 --> 00:27:37.295
and we'll say, hey. Who are the big hubs that, you know, it's okay to accept these channels from in an open

372
00:27:37.675 --> 00:27:39.055
or announced capacity,

373
00:27:39.835 --> 00:27:42.735
and what limits are you okay with them opening those up?

374
00:27:43.035 --> 00:27:52.010
And then for the plebs, who might still want to open up a channel to you, but you don't want them to necessarily announce it to the network because god knows

375
00:27:52.390 --> 00:27:55.049
what kind of liquidity management these plebs do.

376
00:27:56.549 --> 00:27:59.370
You know, what limits do you wanna put in place there?

377
00:27:59.990 --> 00:28:00.490
So

378
00:28:01.029 --> 00:28:04.250
someone who wants to be running, like, these operations

379
00:28:04.870 --> 00:28:05.370
where,

380
00:28:05.765 --> 00:28:07.785
you know, payment speed and reliability

381
00:28:08.725 --> 00:28:11.625
has a real effect on, you know, the consumers

382
00:28:12.005 --> 00:28:13.545
or the customers they're serving.

383
00:28:14.165 --> 00:28:19.785
You wanna get really granular in there and, like, discriminate a little bit. So maybe the plebs that

384
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:30.180
you've opened all these channels to, maybe you'd rather have them be the ones that open the channel to you because they'd be the ones incurring, like, the bulk of the forced closed costs.

385
00:28:30.560 --> 00:28:40.195
And then you also don't want them to announce the channels to you because someone trying to make a payment to you might try to route through these plebs if they have the lowest fees to your note,

386
00:28:40.575 --> 00:28:42.755
and you don't know what kind of inbound they have.

387
00:28:44.654 --> 00:28:47.635
So, yeah, there is there is some complexity there, but

388
00:28:48.174 --> 00:28:48.914
only if

389
00:28:49.820 --> 00:28:51.840
only as you're, like, getting your

390
00:28:52.620 --> 00:28:56.560
your bindings with, like, how liquidity and routing on the network works.

391
00:28:57.100 --> 00:28:57.600
So

392
00:28:58.860 --> 00:29:04.220
I think that with the channel acceptor, I think Bitcoin Park would probably be better off being a little,

393
00:29:05.185 --> 00:29:06.565
more open in that regard.

394
00:29:08.305 --> 00:29:10.085
I just don't wanna deal with it.

395
00:29:13.425 --> 00:29:14.065
We also

396
00:29:14.545 --> 00:29:17.105
you know, it's it's Bitcoin Park is

397
00:29:19.070 --> 00:29:20.850
Well, is this the node for receiving

398
00:29:21.309 --> 00:29:23.710
payments at I like I like to call

399
00:29:24.030 --> 00:29:26.850
Bitcoin is Bitcoin Park is a

400
00:29:27.950 --> 00:29:28.690
a unprofitable

401
00:29:29.150 --> 00:29:30.370
for profit business.

402
00:29:31.804 --> 00:29:35.985
Not a non non for profit. It's just an unprofitable for profit business.

403
00:29:36.605 --> 00:29:38.465
So as a result, we're constantly

404
00:29:38.765 --> 00:29:39.664
having to

405
00:29:40.365 --> 00:29:41.664
sell out of our channels,

406
00:29:42.044 --> 00:29:45.025
and I don't wanna close the channels. So there's a whole another

407
00:29:45.870 --> 00:29:51.970
nuance to it where it's like I get sat stuck in channels that don't have liquidity to

408
00:29:52.750 --> 00:29:53.730
our off ramp

409
00:29:54.110 --> 00:29:57.090
to sell for dollars to pay our fiat expenses.

410
00:29:58.030 --> 00:30:00.930
So having one or two large channels,

411
00:30:01.575 --> 00:30:03.115
two well connected peers

412
00:30:04.534 --> 00:30:05.995
takes away a lot of headache

413
00:30:06.375 --> 00:30:07.434
instead of, like,

414
00:30:08.534 --> 00:30:09.674
sending, you know,

415
00:30:11.335 --> 00:30:12.294
$500

416
00:30:12.294 --> 00:30:12.794
chunks

417
00:30:13.335 --> 00:30:13.835
to

418
00:30:14.215 --> 00:30:16.475
to an exchange because you don't have liquidity.

419
00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:24.600
It also depends on your flow. So, like, it is this usually, like, a node you're making outgoing payments to or receiving inbound?

420
00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:26.840
Both. That's the point.

421
00:30:27.780 --> 00:30:29.160
Right? It's like we're receiving

422
00:30:29.540 --> 00:30:31.540
we're receiving payments in our

423
00:30:32.835 --> 00:30:34.215
in, like, the cafe and

424
00:30:34.915 --> 00:30:36.054
membership dues,

425
00:30:36.515 --> 00:30:37.015
and

426
00:30:38.195 --> 00:30:45.575
and then we're we're spending it mostly well, sometimes to pay contractors, but also, like, pay contractors directly in Bitcoin,

427
00:30:45.890 --> 00:30:49.270
but also just to, like, sell dollars to pay the rent and shit.

428
00:30:49.650 --> 00:30:50.150
Yeah.

429
00:30:52.210 --> 00:30:52.710
Anyway,

430
00:30:55.410 --> 00:31:03.885
why would before we're, like, off on a tangent already, and now we're doing, like, customer support. Everything's fine at Bitcoin Park. Our payment reliability is fantastic.

431
00:31:04.985 --> 00:31:08.845
You you have a completely different philosophy than Async on this.

432
00:31:10.025 --> 00:31:19.400
How do you, like so Async just like any you can just open a channel with them any size. Doesn't you don't have to be white listed. But meanwhile, you have

433
00:31:20.100 --> 00:31:25.000
the Olympus node, like, heavily locked down. How do how do you how are they getting away with it?

434
00:31:25.505 --> 00:31:29.445
How are they run getting away with it? I mean, they have a immense amount

435
00:31:30.065 --> 00:31:37.685
of liquidity deployed. I think they say they're, like, the biggest node on the network, a hundred million dollars worth of Bitcoin on it.

436
00:31:38.070 --> 00:31:41.210
Not maybe not all deployed, but ready to deploy at any

437
00:31:41.510 --> 00:31:42.010
point.

438
00:31:43.269 --> 00:31:46.010
We don't have a hundred million dollars to put on that,

439
00:31:47.190 --> 00:31:48.890
so we have to be a little more,

440
00:31:49.350 --> 00:31:49.850
discriminatory.

441
00:31:51.235 --> 00:31:52.294
That being said,

442
00:31:53.235 --> 00:31:56.135
sometimes async's not the best peer to peer up with.

443
00:31:56.515 --> 00:31:58.934
Sometimes you do have those people that

444
00:31:59.315 --> 00:32:03.000
open up those channels. They don't have a well maintained node.

445
00:32:03.320 --> 00:32:08.220
You try to route through them or try people try to get to you through them and those four channels.

446
00:32:09.080 --> 00:32:09.580
And,

447
00:32:10.120 --> 00:32:11.740
it really increases payment,

448
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.260
routing time and decreases the reliability.

449
00:32:16.360 --> 00:32:16.860
So,

450
00:32:17.794 --> 00:32:20.615
you know, some some issues you can solve partially

451
00:32:21.315 --> 00:32:22.695
by throwing money at,

452
00:32:23.075 --> 00:32:24.135
but not fully.

453
00:32:24.595 --> 00:32:27.575
I think that people would have a much better experience,

454
00:32:29.075 --> 00:32:30.054
with their payments,

455
00:32:31.390 --> 00:32:32.850
at least as a peer,

456
00:32:33.150 --> 00:32:38.770
at least as someone running their own node and connecting to async, if they were a little more discriminatory. The thing is

457
00:32:39.230 --> 00:32:41.250
the Phoenix client is also

458
00:32:41.550 --> 00:32:43.090
using trampoline routing.

459
00:32:43.635 --> 00:32:44.295
So they've

460
00:32:44.675 --> 00:32:45.575
have these,

461
00:32:46.035 --> 00:32:48.915
this profile of payments in the graph and

462
00:32:49.395 --> 00:32:52.375
that they make to the people using the Phoenix wallet,

463
00:32:52.915 --> 00:32:56.535
and that sort of smooth soothes over some stuff as well.

464
00:32:58.250 --> 00:32:59.789
Whereas something like Zeus,

465
00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:03.710
has the user

466
00:33:04.490 --> 00:33:07.390
do all the routing calculations on their own device,

467
00:33:07.850 --> 00:33:10.350
and this come bit of a a trade off.

468
00:33:13.185 --> 00:33:20.885
So Phoenix, at least in most cases, in which they're not using Bolt 12 or Blinded Pass, they have, like, full visibility into the payments that you're making,

469
00:33:21.665 --> 00:33:27.080
because they're essentially routing these payments for you and helping them get to the destination.

470
00:33:27.940 --> 00:33:32.280
Whereas Zeus, the trade off is, like, you're downloading this graph data

471
00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:35.320
in advance. We call this the express graph sync.

472
00:33:36.100 --> 00:33:41.160
If you have the node in the phone or you're just listening to the network if you have a remote node,

473
00:33:42.055 --> 00:33:47.755
but all your payments are cal your payment routes are co calculated locally, and we don't have any insights into that.

474
00:33:48.855 --> 00:33:56.395
And as a result, like, Phoenix is fast as fuck and Zeus is, like, you have your thirty second sovereignty wait time or whatever.

475
00:33:56.910 --> 00:33:58.450
Well, yeah, it depends on,

476
00:34:00.110 --> 00:34:05.410
you know, how fresh the graph data you have is, where your channels are, if you've opened them

477
00:34:05.710 --> 00:34:06.850
by yourself to

478
00:34:07.310 --> 00:34:09.810
destinations of your choosing or if you're using the LSP.

479
00:34:10.110 --> 00:34:11.650
There's a lot of factors there.

480
00:34:12.285 --> 00:34:12.785
Fair

481
00:34:13.244 --> 00:34:13.744
enough.

482
00:34:14.684 --> 00:34:15.184
Okay.

483
00:34:15.645 --> 00:34:17.345
So all of that intricacy,

484
00:34:17.645 --> 00:34:19.025
Cashew fixes that.

485
00:34:20.765 --> 00:34:22.385
In a lot of ways. Yes.

486
00:34:24.045 --> 00:34:24.545
So

487
00:34:25.325 --> 00:34:25.825
Cashew,

488
00:34:26.630 --> 00:34:27.770
Chow Me and Ecash.

489
00:34:29.270 --> 00:34:31.290
It is a custodial solution.

490
00:34:32.310 --> 00:34:32.810
You

491
00:34:34.150 --> 00:34:42.675
still have the perks of being able to restore your funds from your seed. We derive your cashew seed from the embedded LND seed.

492
00:34:44.575 --> 00:34:47.955
From there, you're able to connect to one or multiple mints,

493
00:34:48.815 --> 00:34:51.875
that are the custodians that you're using. You have,

494
00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:55.000
I'd say, really good degree of privacy,

495
00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:57.240
for a custodial product.

496
00:34:58.740 --> 00:35:01.800
The Mint is not able to kick you off of it.

497
00:35:02.180 --> 00:35:07.880
If they're gonna shut operations down or rug the funds, they can't just take it from any single individual.

498
00:35:08.505 --> 00:35:10.045
They're gonna take it from

499
00:35:10.424 --> 00:35:10.924
everyone.

500
00:35:12.585 --> 00:35:13.065
And,

501
00:35:13.944 --> 00:35:15.404
yeah, I mean, you have to

502
00:35:15.785 --> 00:35:22.204
you're trusting a lot with the Mint. Like, the Mint has to be managing their own lightning node. They have to have their own good channels.

503
00:35:24.099 --> 00:35:25.720
But if it's well maintained,

504
00:35:27.060 --> 00:35:29.720
you remove the headache of managing your own channels,

505
00:35:30.580 --> 00:35:33.960
and, you know, you should just be able to start accepting payments

506
00:35:34.740 --> 00:35:36.040
without much of a headache.

507
00:35:36.580 --> 00:35:37.060
So I

508
00:35:38.305 --> 00:35:40.725
stepping stone for people trying to get

509
00:35:41.665 --> 00:35:44.645
into lightning, into the ecosystem the first time.

510
00:35:45.185 --> 00:35:48.725
And the way that we have it integrated in Zeus is quite novel,

511
00:35:49.185 --> 00:35:50.965
and we sort of will guide you

512
00:35:51.425 --> 00:35:52.805
towards self custody

513
00:35:53.180 --> 00:35:57.840
as you accumulate more and more of a balance and provide you with educational resources

514
00:35:58.220 --> 00:36:01.200
so you sort of make heads and tails of what this

515
00:36:01.580 --> 00:36:03.120
self custody thing is

516
00:36:03.500 --> 00:36:07.680
and how is it compared to the eCash wallet that you're starting off with.

517
00:36:10.565 --> 00:36:15.545
Yeah. So, I mean, I was playing around with the newest release that has Cashew in it.

518
00:36:18.005 --> 00:36:20.505
I real like, the Mint Discovery is awesome.

519
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:23.180
I've used a lot of Cashew wallets.

520
00:36:23.640 --> 00:36:26.680
I guess you're you're pulling it from BitcoinMints.com,

521
00:36:26.680 --> 00:36:28.460
right, which is, like, the Nostr enabled

522
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.060
discovery service.

523
00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:31.740
Mhmm. So

524
00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:34.380
the Nostr

525
00:36:35.984 --> 00:36:39.525
or the Bitcoin Mints website with the reviews for the Mints

526
00:36:39.904 --> 00:36:40.805
is a fantastic

527
00:36:41.585 --> 00:36:43.045
feature to have in there.

528
00:36:44.305 --> 00:36:46.164
And, yeah, it it's it's just

529
00:36:47.265 --> 00:36:47.765
fantastic

530
00:36:48.625 --> 00:36:49.125
start,

531
00:36:49.890 --> 00:36:54.470
but it's not the final destination that we wanna go with it. I'd say that

532
00:36:55.569 --> 00:36:56.710
with Cashew,

533
00:36:57.170 --> 00:36:57.910
the Mint

534
00:36:58.690 --> 00:37:01.910
Discovery, the Mint choosing is probably the highest friction point.

535
00:37:02.290 --> 00:37:06.155
How do you select a custodian that gets trustworthy enough?

536
00:37:07.095 --> 00:37:23.260
And, you know, there's not a Especially if you're brand new. Like, you're brand new. I'm onboarding like, that's where Cashew really shines is for a brand new user, and, like, you're bringing them in. And their first question is is like, okay. Which mint do you choose? Like, I have no idea. Like, is this something I put in my mouth to make my breath smell better?

537
00:37:24.520 --> 00:37:25.020
Exactly.

538
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:25.980
So

539
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:28.380
we're gonna be spending a lot

540
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.340
on this one and trying to get it absolutely right.

541
00:37:31.965 --> 00:37:37.665
I think a social element, of course, is already there in which people are voting for the ones that but,

542
00:37:38.845 --> 00:37:41.665
you know, it's still not a ton of data that we're dealing with.

543
00:37:42.045 --> 00:37:46.625
I think over time, it's gonna become more social with your social graph,

544
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:49.000
probably powered by.

545
00:37:51.140 --> 00:37:54.599
And, you know, I think what the muni guys did with

546
00:37:54.980 --> 00:37:56.200
their implementation

547
00:37:58.420 --> 00:38:01.960
where you sort of got to see which of the people you vouch for,

548
00:38:02.825 --> 00:38:05.805
whichever mince is is probably the way that we're gonna end up going.

549
00:38:06.905 --> 00:38:08.445
I think a mix of that

550
00:38:09.065 --> 00:38:12.045
with some sort of algorithm to help you auto select,

551
00:38:13.705 --> 00:38:15.085
could be very valuable.

552
00:38:16.450 --> 00:38:16.950
But,

553
00:38:17.490 --> 00:38:20.070
yeah, there's there's still a lot that we wanna dive into.

554
00:38:20.530 --> 00:38:21.570
You know? The current

555
00:38:22.130 --> 00:38:24.950
what we have is still an alpha, and I think even before

556
00:38:25.570 --> 00:38:27.350
the gold master gets out,

557
00:38:29.825 --> 00:38:32.085
I know. It's gonna be different still.

558
00:38:33.505 --> 00:38:37.924
What do you think about the Titanic approach to mints where you have,

559
00:38:39.424 --> 00:38:44.724
the user keep money in multiple mints, and then you can use multipart payments to

560
00:38:46.330 --> 00:38:50.270
do the payment so that if any single mint goes down, they don't lose all their money.

561
00:38:51.450 --> 00:38:55.630
Absolutely love it. Distribute risk. Try out different mints.

562
00:38:56.330 --> 00:38:59.070
Have a little money in a couple different ones.

563
00:38:59.715 --> 00:39:00.375
You know?

564
00:39:00.675 --> 00:39:03.975
It's could be difficult to run a mint and a lightning node. Definitely.

565
00:39:04.515 --> 00:39:06.535
So if someone's go undergoing maintenance,

566
00:39:07.315 --> 00:39:10.215
you don't have all your money in one pot as you're getting started.

567
00:39:10.915 --> 00:39:18.640
You just switch to another one and make sure your payments continue. Yeah. I'm I'm using, like, four or five minutes at a time right now.

568
00:39:19.819 --> 00:39:23.040
But I'm, like, I'm saying, like, as almost like a default flow.

569
00:39:23.579 --> 00:39:25.280
Because the problem that that

570
00:39:27.115 --> 00:39:38.495
the problem that every Cashew wallet developer has is they don't wanna choose the mint for the user. Mhmm. They don't wanna choose your custodian relationship. They don't want that liability or responsibility

571
00:39:38.795 --> 00:39:39.455
on them.

572
00:39:40.670 --> 00:39:47.570
But then as a result, no matter what happens, you always have this friction point that no matter how graceful you make

573
00:39:47.950 --> 00:39:49.810
it, you're making the user

574
00:39:50.670 --> 00:39:52.450
make a very critical decision

575
00:39:53.435 --> 00:39:55.855
Right. Very early on in their journey.

576
00:39:56.955 --> 00:39:59.535
Is there something there where the default

577
00:40:00.315 --> 00:40:01.215
could be, like,

578
00:40:02.875 --> 00:40:17.470
the five bestments or something? I mean, I don't know. Best is not an objective claim. I I I don't know. I don't pretend to know how to do it. But where the default is instead of picking one mint for them, you basically pick, like, a handful and split the risk up.

579
00:40:17.904 --> 00:40:19.924
Absolutely. So we have all these heuristics.

580
00:40:21.505 --> 00:40:24.644
You know, I think there's, like, a new site for determining,

581
00:40:26.224 --> 00:40:32.724
you know, payment success rates to these mints, how well they're managed. You could use that as well as the social stuff we were talking about.

582
00:40:33.380 --> 00:40:34.040
Pick five.

583
00:40:35.860 --> 00:40:39.720
Have the user just rotate through those as they're accepting payments.

584
00:40:40.820 --> 00:40:48.120
And then, you know, you gotta start thinking, okay. What's the worst case scenario from? So if the user is using a single mint and it gets rugged,

585
00:40:48.725 --> 00:40:55.625
they lose a % of their money. But if they're using five and one goes down, well, you got rugged 20% only.

586
00:40:56.645 --> 00:41:00.585
Could be better for sure. Same thing just in terms of payment reliability.

587
00:41:00.885 --> 00:41:02.345
One goes down for maintenance.

588
00:41:02.870 --> 00:41:06.090
It always defer to another one. There's a ton of perks there

589
00:41:06.390 --> 00:41:08.170
for sure. But at this

590
00:41:09.110 --> 00:41:14.170
you're adding more mints for the user to, you know, rotate through.

591
00:41:14.885 --> 00:41:17.545
You're introducing more third party risk. It's just

592
00:41:18.165 --> 00:41:19.065
what balance,

593
00:41:19.525 --> 00:41:21.545
what sort of distribution you're comfortable,

594
00:41:23.444 --> 00:41:25.224
with dispersing that risk.

595
00:41:25.605 --> 00:41:28.885
Obviously, if you had a mint that you could trust 100%,

596
00:41:28.885 --> 00:41:34.070
you'd rather just use that. You know, if your neighbor was running the mint and you could go knock on his door, you'd probably

597
00:41:34.530 --> 00:41:41.590
be better off using that one singular mint than five random ones from five strangers on the Internet. So it really depends on your situation.

598
00:41:42.515 --> 00:41:43.895
But that being said, yeah,

599
00:41:44.275 --> 00:41:45.655
splitting up that risk,

600
00:41:46.115 --> 00:41:47.895
could be valuable in a lot of ways

601
00:41:48.195 --> 00:41:50.775
just as long as you don't need all the money at once

602
00:41:51.235 --> 00:41:55.655
and dealing with, you know, the downtime that you're adding to the picture there.

603
00:41:56.710 --> 00:41:59.370
So the way you look at the user journey

604
00:42:00.310 --> 00:42:00.810
is

605
00:42:02.310 --> 00:42:04.570
they come in. They probably start with Cashew.

606
00:42:05.110 --> 00:42:05.610
Mhmm.

607
00:42:05.910 --> 00:42:08.330
And then as more money gets

608
00:42:09.965 --> 00:42:12.625
built up in this custodial wallet,

609
00:42:13.405 --> 00:42:14.945
once they hit a certain threshold,

610
00:42:15.325 --> 00:42:24.365
then they're gonna be moving to the node in the phone model, and they would have they would effectively pay for a channel from the LSP to go full sovereign. Is that the

611
00:42:25.240 --> 00:42:26.540
that's the dream. Right?

612
00:42:27.160 --> 00:42:27.980
Yeah. So

613
00:42:28.520 --> 00:42:35.580
easy path would be press one button, upgrade, get your channel. Once it's opened up, move the remaining balance over

614
00:42:36.120 --> 00:42:37.420
to self custody.

615
00:42:38.415 --> 00:42:40.515
But at the same time, we also wanna give

616
00:42:40.895 --> 00:42:45.635
people who are a little more advanced, they know exactly what they wanna do, a little bit more flexibility.

617
00:42:47.855 --> 00:42:49.475
Maybe they want to

618
00:42:50.575 --> 00:42:51.075
swap

619
00:42:51.535 --> 00:42:52.915
their nuts out.

620
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.300
Their Satoshis on eCash for

621
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:57.940
an on chain UTXO to kick to

622
00:42:58.240 --> 00:42:59.060
cold storage.

623
00:42:59.600 --> 00:43:01.860
We want people to be able to do that too.

624
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.380
Maybe they wanna take that UTXO and then open up to,

625
00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:06.795
you know,

626
00:43:07.595 --> 00:43:12.815
a friend or a restaurant that they frequent. They should be able to do that too.

627
00:43:13.355 --> 00:43:16.815
So we wanna provide, like, these rails, this easy path

628
00:43:17.275 --> 00:43:21.150
for the novice user to use, but still give them all the optionality

629
00:43:21.610 --> 00:43:23.470
that users for giving people.

630
00:43:24.890 --> 00:43:27.630
How do you think about that makes sense to me.

631
00:43:30.810 --> 00:43:31.470
I mean,

632
00:43:32.010 --> 00:43:33.550
it's interesting, right, because

633
00:43:34.745 --> 00:43:36.445
Cashew is such a new project

634
00:43:37.705 --> 00:43:50.780
Yeah. That right now, if you think about, like, the percentage of of users that are using Cashew that are also running a node separately is probably quite high. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if, like, 70% of Casue users also have a full lightning node.

635
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:52.940
So there's definitely a user

636
00:43:53.560 --> 00:43:56.060
out there that would wanna do both regardless,

637
00:43:58.285 --> 00:44:02.305
which is Yeah. It's just kinda interesting to think about. But in the future, I presume

638
00:44:02.765 --> 00:44:04.285
that, like, 95%

639
00:44:04.285 --> 00:44:07.025
of Casio users won't be running their own node,

640
00:44:07.485 --> 00:44:13.630
and it'll be like a gradual stepping stone. So threshold wise, what what do you what is

641
00:44:14.170 --> 00:44:21.549
what is the ideal threshold from when you move? That's the million set question is what is the ideal threshold where you move to

642
00:44:22.089 --> 00:44:23.069
sovereign lightning

643
00:44:23.369 --> 00:44:24.109
from Cashew?

644
00:44:26.785 --> 00:44:33.445
And, you know, that's that's exactly right. It's a difficult question to ask because there's so many externalities

645
00:44:33.745 --> 00:44:34.245
here.

646
00:44:34.625 --> 00:44:43.190
Like, we don't really know the user's financial system, right, or financial situation rather. We don't know how much money they have. We what's a lot for

647
00:44:43.490 --> 00:44:47.430
them. You don't really wanna make these, like, decisions for them automatically,

648
00:44:48.690 --> 00:44:54.230
if the money in their wallet is all that they have right now. Like, let's say they gained 10,000

649
00:44:54.290 --> 00:44:55.910
sats in their wallet,

650
00:44:56.525 --> 00:45:02.305
and that's enough for a channel, and they wanna get a channel from us at the lowest rate, and it's, like, 5,000 sats.

651
00:45:02.925 --> 00:45:06.625
You wanna automatically take half their money for them to go to self custody?

652
00:45:07.325 --> 00:45:10.305
No. That doesn't make sense to me. So

653
00:45:10.660 --> 00:45:12.440
what we're doing is

654
00:45:13.380 --> 00:45:15.400
prompting the user and giving them

655
00:45:16.180 --> 00:45:19.240
the information that they need to make an informed decision.

656
00:45:20.020 --> 00:45:27.135
We tell them at so they hit certain thresholds at, you know, 10,000 sats, 20 5 thousand sats, 50 thousand sats.

657
00:45:27.835 --> 00:45:35.615
We gotta see if we're gonna cap it. Right now, it's uncapped. But if you hit a hundred thousand sats, the messages get a bit more intense.

658
00:45:36.570 --> 00:45:40.590
And, you know, there's also a lot of fun things we can do with that too.

659
00:45:42.090 --> 00:45:45.390
Wait. Well, like, how intense do they get? What do the messages say?

660
00:45:46.810 --> 00:45:47.690
You know, it's like,

661
00:45:48.170 --> 00:45:49.070
it starts off,

662
00:45:49.690 --> 00:45:56.585
you know, you can afford a self custodial channel right now. You know? Hit this button, check out what the rates are, and see if you wanna upgrade.

663
00:45:57.125 --> 00:45:59.385
And then keep going. It's like, it's,

664
00:46:01.525 --> 00:46:04.505
it would be better for you to upgrade right now. There's

665
00:46:05.890 --> 00:46:11.830
rehypothecation or that there's risk of losing your funds if you don't hold your own keys and don't go to self custody.

666
00:46:12.369 --> 00:46:17.110
And then down the line, it's like, woah. This is not you're being crazy. You have a lot of money

667
00:46:17.650 --> 00:46:21.984
in cash you. And then if we really wanna be rambunctious, maybe we'll say,

668
00:46:22.765 --> 00:46:27.825
you got rugged is what could be a message we show you. You don't upgrade.

669
00:46:28.285 --> 00:46:31.265
I don't know. We're we're still experimenting with a lot of that.

670
00:46:32.450 --> 00:46:35.829
Obviously, it's very on brand with the Zeus wallet

671
00:46:36.450 --> 00:46:38.789
to be a little tongue in cheek, be a little rambunctious.

672
00:46:39.970 --> 00:46:41.910
But, you know, we also don't wanna necessarily

673
00:46:42.289 --> 00:46:43.910
scare users out the gate.

674
00:46:44.289 --> 00:46:44.789
So

675
00:46:45.115 --> 00:46:47.935
we're working on providing the resources, providing documentation

676
00:46:48.235 --> 00:46:48.735
pages,

677
00:46:49.195 --> 00:46:53.615
trying to get people ins and outs of what these trade offs are between these different systems.

678
00:46:54.235 --> 00:46:55.295
And to be frank,

679
00:46:56.155 --> 00:47:00.569
there's, like, a lot of noise, and there's a lot of places you can get caught up with navigating

680
00:47:01.589 --> 00:47:03.770
the Bitcoin wallet journey right now.

681
00:47:04.230 --> 00:47:06.890
There's a lot of different solutions on the market.

682
00:47:07.430 --> 00:47:08.650
There's a lot of people

683
00:47:08.950 --> 00:47:09.450
misrepresenting

684
00:47:10.470 --> 00:47:12.410
what their product actually is.

685
00:47:13.164 --> 00:47:15.105
And, of course, there's a lot of nuance,

686
00:47:15.964 --> 00:47:18.385
to what the properties of all these things are.

687
00:47:18.845 --> 00:47:20.944
And, you know, it just really sort of,

688
00:47:22.045 --> 00:47:24.065
grinds my gears a little bit when people

689
00:47:24.365 --> 00:47:28.385
just don't want to be upfront with their users with what they're peddling,

690
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:33.020
and we never wanna be in that situation. We wanna sort

691
00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:36.380
of be upfront with users and sort of

692
00:47:36.680 --> 00:47:37.500
guide them,

693
00:47:38.200 --> 00:47:39.819
to where they should wanna be

694
00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:42.619
by clearly displaying the trade offs.

695
00:47:44.954 --> 00:47:46.174
So, I mean, you said

696
00:47:46.635 --> 00:47:51.454
a hundred thousand sats is when you start getting more aggressive. I mean, that's only

697
00:47:52.075 --> 00:47:52.895
$80.

698
00:47:53.355 --> 00:47:53.855
Mhmm.

699
00:47:56.490 --> 00:47:59.390
I mean, my gut says that's probably a little bit low.

700
00:48:02.410 --> 00:48:03.150
Did you see

701
00:48:05.770 --> 00:48:08.590
the Homeland Security secretary, Christy Noem?

702
00:48:09.065 --> 00:48:12.765
She got robbed. Her purse got robbed. She had $3,000 in cash in it.

703
00:48:15.145 --> 00:48:16.365
Did she declare that?

704
00:48:16.825 --> 00:48:18.525
Where'd she get where'd she get robbed?

705
00:48:19.145 --> 00:48:20.205
She she

706
00:48:20.505 --> 00:48:25.300
she said it after she got robbed that there was $3,000 in cat like, in the police report or whatever.

707
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:27.060
Where did she get robbed?

708
00:48:28.080 --> 00:48:33.940
She was at she was at dinner or lunch in Washington, DC, and her purse was on the ground, and they grabbed her purse.

709
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:37.300
But, anyway, my point is is

710
00:48:38.205 --> 00:48:40.125
what's more secure, $3,000

711
00:48:40.125 --> 00:48:43.105
in cash in your purse or $3,000

712
00:48:43.485 --> 00:48:45.105
in your favorite mint?

713
00:48:46.045 --> 00:48:50.465
If she had it in her mint and she kept her seed, she probably would still have the $3,000.

714
00:48:52.710 --> 00:48:54.010
Yeah. That is true.

715
00:48:54.470 --> 00:49:00.090
That's the thing with having an ecash seed. You could have it backed up. You could have it in multiple places.

716
00:49:00.470 --> 00:49:02.890
Cash, you can only have in one place.

717
00:49:03.545 --> 00:49:07.165
So in that regard, e cash is better than regular cash.

718
00:49:10.025 --> 00:49:21.000
It's just something to think. Like, what is the amount? I don't know what the I've people ask me this all the time. Like, I don't know the amount depends on the user, so it's it's a little bit difficult to have a proper flow. I would say that

719
00:49:21.380 --> 00:49:25.880
as it gets larger, maybe consider making the prompts turn to caps,

720
00:49:27.060 --> 00:49:29.080
and speak more clearly to the user

721
00:49:29.715 --> 00:49:33.875
and might get through to them. That's an idea. Well, you know, I think we're

722
00:49:35.235 --> 00:49:38.215
there's different ways that we can convey the message to people.

723
00:49:38.595 --> 00:49:43.255
There's a lot of resources we could put in front of them. There's a lot of things that we could distill down to basics.

724
00:49:44.790 --> 00:49:46.650
Getting louder, putting things in caps,

725
00:49:47.030 --> 00:49:47.930
making things

726
00:49:48.310 --> 00:49:49.930
more highlighted in the UI.

727
00:49:50.390 --> 00:49:54.250
I believe we we posted a demo on social media on,

728
00:49:55.190 --> 00:49:58.490
that showed how, you know, you get past 10,000 sats.

729
00:49:59.454 --> 00:50:07.714
As you get closer and closer to a hundred thousand, your ecash balance under the balance view ensues gets more red, more fiery.

730
00:50:09.535 --> 00:50:20.039
I think I like that. A lot of visual cues like that. You know? We wanna be very upfront. We have, like, a giant custodial all caps label on it that you can't turn off by default.

731
00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:28.425
And, of course, you know, as you get your own channel, we're gonna stop bothering you about things. Like, once you

732
00:50:28.985 --> 00:50:29.965
are at the rodeo,

733
00:50:30.265 --> 00:50:33.645
we might give you some other prompts, things that might be useful for you.

734
00:50:34.825 --> 00:50:38.185
But, you know, we're not gonna be hounding you the same way that we would,

735
00:50:38.505 --> 00:50:40.925
if you just have this e cash balance.

736
00:50:41.225 --> 00:50:44.840
And I think we're in, like, a really unique position there, Matt, Because

737
00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:48.280
if you think about the average custodial wallet,

738
00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:52.440
how many of them actually have the incentive to be like,

739
00:50:53.700 --> 00:50:57.240
this is a lot here. Maybe you should upgrade to self custody.

740
00:50:58.255 --> 00:51:02.115
Probably not very many, especially if they're all really basing their their,

741
00:51:02.415 --> 00:51:06.994
business on these transaction fees and charging you as you're making payments out.

742
00:51:07.535 --> 00:51:14.850
If you make one big payment out, like, maybe they could collect a lot there, but they wanna keep you in that wallet and using it every day.

743
00:51:15.630 --> 00:51:17.410
And they said they don't really have the

744
00:51:17.950 --> 00:51:19.170
financial incentive

745
00:51:19.790 --> 00:51:21.250
to guide you to self custody.

746
00:51:22.030 --> 00:51:31.255
Whereas Zeus is in a unique position because of the lightning service provider that's built around catering self custodial users. We're in this unique position to be like, hey.

747
00:51:31.555 --> 00:51:38.855
We have these other products that have a lot of these benefits to you. You should consider upgrading and reaping those benefits.

748
00:51:40.580 --> 00:51:44.840
You you actually make no money if they use the Cashew element. It's that reverse incentive.

749
00:51:45.940 --> 00:51:51.880
Right. Right. I mean, there's some stuff with the Zeus Pay plus perks that we're working out right now

750
00:51:53.675 --> 00:52:01.055
that they could potentially be sitting on Cashew the whole time. I mean, they probably wouldn't after all the yelling we do at them with them. But, potentially,

751
00:52:01.675 --> 00:52:02.575
yeah, they could

752
00:52:02.955 --> 00:52:12.869
just use the wallet, and we don't reap the benefits of it at all. And that's fine. I mean, that's the case with Zeus today. You can have a lightning wallet. You could connect it to it. You can

753
00:52:13.890 --> 00:52:18.790
manage it with Zeus. You cannot buy any channels from us. You cannot send us any sets.

754
00:52:19.175 --> 00:52:23.355
And that's fine. You sort of just gotta be okay with that if you're gonna ship free and open source software.

755
00:52:25.494 --> 00:52:27.515
But long term, we think that,

756
00:52:28.055 --> 00:52:33.755
you know, beyond the support that we've gotten just from donations, we think that the services that we provide are valuable.

757
00:52:34.619 --> 00:52:35.119
And,

758
00:52:36.059 --> 00:52:40.799
you know, they're top shelf. They know that if they're gonna use us, they're gonna have payment reliability,

759
00:52:41.579 --> 00:52:42.400
good rates,

760
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:43.760
and

761
00:52:45.500 --> 00:52:48.640
pretty much get that top shelf product that we strive to be.

762
00:52:50.474 --> 00:52:53.755
Well, I'm glad you brought that up. I don't know if you listened to my

763
00:52:55.035 --> 00:52:57.135
the show with Rob Hamilton last week,

764
00:52:59.194 --> 00:53:02.474
but they've been resistant to open sourcing Trident Wallet,

765
00:53:04.120 --> 00:53:08.140
for business reasons. And we had a long conversation about it that I'm not gonna

766
00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:11.260
put words in his mouth. But,

767
00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:17.180
I really do applaud you trying to build a business on top of an open source stack. I mean, I think to me, that's

768
00:53:17.895 --> 00:53:20.475
that's the dream. The dream is a sustainable

769
00:53:22.135 --> 00:53:22.635
profit,

770
00:53:23.895 --> 00:53:25.515
you know, profitable business

771
00:53:25.975 --> 00:53:29.835
that also maintains an open source stack and gives their users full control.

772
00:53:30.330 --> 00:53:33.790
It's definitely the harder path, but you seem to be taking it.

773
00:53:34.250 --> 00:53:37.630
We're try we're trying. We think that on the consumer side,

774
00:53:38.170 --> 00:53:46.515
we need to do that. Obviously, there's a lot of other tools that we use internally. Right? Like, running the LSP, making sure that we're dealing with the stupid

775
00:53:47.135 --> 00:53:49.155
compliance checkboxes we gotta

776
00:53:49.455 --> 00:53:50.835
check off in The US.

777
00:53:52.095 --> 00:53:57.230
And a lot of the tooling that we've built out to just run an efficient lightning node and LSP,

778
00:53:57.930 --> 00:53:59.630
not all of that's out of the box.

779
00:54:00.090 --> 00:54:06.030
Right? And a lot of that stuff is gonna stay inside the box so that we can help other corporate users. But on the consumer side,

780
00:54:06.410 --> 00:54:09.595
when we're talking about individual's money, we think it's very

781
00:54:10.375 --> 00:54:13.595
important. It's imperative for that to all be free and open source

782
00:54:13.895 --> 00:54:16.795
and for people to be able to audit it, inspect it,

783
00:54:17.095 --> 00:54:18.954
as well as build on top of it.

784
00:54:19.734 --> 00:54:22.714
Obviously, there's a lot of trade offs that you're making there,

785
00:54:23.820 --> 00:54:24.320
but

786
00:54:25.580 --> 00:54:27.020
I I simply can't see

787
00:54:27.980 --> 00:54:31.200
I I wouldn't be comfortable with putting out those black boxes,

788
00:54:32.620 --> 00:54:36.160
for people to use and and just not be able to call their money back,

789
00:54:36.540 --> 00:54:37.440
without us.

790
00:54:38.765 --> 00:54:44.685
As for Rob's business, you know, I I don't know all the ins and outs. Obviously, Anchor Wash is a very different,

791
00:54:45.085 --> 00:54:45.585
product.

792
00:54:46.925 --> 00:54:50.225
I'd encourage him to consider open sourcing what he can.

793
00:54:51.735 --> 00:54:52.235
But,

794
00:54:53.740 --> 00:55:01.120
you know, it's gonna be very different ways that people are using it. I I imagine people will be interfacing with Anchor Watch more directly

795
00:55:01.820 --> 00:55:03.200
for their savings products,

796
00:55:03.580 --> 00:55:05.200
so I can't really make any judgments.

797
00:55:07.994 --> 00:55:08.734
Fair enough.

798
00:55:09.755 --> 00:55:12.234
Wasn't asking you to make any judgments there. I,

799
00:55:13.675 --> 00:55:16.415
okay. So back to Cashew. So we're using Cashew,

800
00:55:17.515 --> 00:55:18.015
and

801
00:55:19.500 --> 00:55:23.120
I have a lightning address with Zeus Pay. So I set up my Mint.

802
00:55:23.660 --> 00:55:29.440
Yep. Let's do my user flow. I I I connected to a Mint on my note in the phone product.

803
00:55:31.455 --> 00:55:35.555
I used to have channels on that wallet, but now I don't have channels.

804
00:55:36.015 --> 00:55:36.515
Okay.

805
00:55:40.895 --> 00:55:52.299
Did was I talking to you and I was like, oh, shit. I have a bunch of money in this wallet that I completely forgot about? Did I tell you that? Yeah. Yeah. It's like the modern day equivalent of finding the change in the couch, but

806
00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:54.200
you just found $600

807
00:55:54.200 --> 00:55:55.260
of quarters instead.

808
00:55:56.520 --> 00:56:01.740
So, anyway, I I closed that channel, and then I withdrew it, like, a week ago.

809
00:56:03.204 --> 00:56:03.944
And then

810
00:56:04.645 --> 00:56:06.265
I created the Cashew wallet.

811
00:56:06.805 --> 00:56:08.105
It's in the same wallet.

812
00:56:08.405 --> 00:56:09.944
Then I tried to send money

813
00:56:10.645 --> 00:56:13.785
to that lightning address, and it didn't come to my Mint.

814
00:56:14.405 --> 00:56:15.464
The payment failed.

815
00:56:16.670 --> 00:56:21.569
Should the payment work in that situate? If I have a channel, I guess I'm going all over the place.

816
00:56:21.950 --> 00:56:27.170
You have to balance this thing now. If I have one Lightning address Mhmm. And I have channels,

817
00:56:27.950 --> 00:56:29.890
and I also have a Mint setup,

818
00:56:31.085 --> 00:56:38.464
where does that payment go to? Does it try and go to the channel first? And if the channel fails, it should gracefully move over to the Mint. How does that work?

819
00:56:39.005 --> 00:56:40.944
Again, I think it's a user decision.

820
00:56:41.885 --> 00:56:43.905
Maybe we could have a fallback system,

821
00:56:44.230 --> 00:56:46.090
but at the moment, the user decides.

822
00:56:46.550 --> 00:56:48.970
What kind of lightning address do I wanna have set up?

823
00:56:51.430 --> 00:56:57.435
So with Zeus Pay originally, we had the system called Zap Logger. We still do, and it's it's great.

824
00:56:58.235 --> 00:57:00.335
It basically leverages Huddl invoices.

825
00:57:01.195 --> 00:57:06.575
So let's say you have the note in your phone. You're offline. You can't that payment on.

826
00:57:07.355 --> 00:57:13.910
We would basically create a Huddl invoice, an invoice that gets held by the creator or the LSP for a little bit.

827
00:57:14.690 --> 00:57:17.670
And the receiver has twenty four hours

828
00:57:19.010 --> 00:57:21.830
to redeem it or it gets returned back to the sender.

829
00:57:22.369 --> 00:57:23.910
And this was controversial

830
00:57:24.369 --> 00:57:32.685
because it holds up an HCLC slot, a hash time lock contract slot within your link channel. You can only have a certain amount of those. It's about 500.

831
00:57:33.465 --> 00:57:41.325
And, some people were giving us some flack about it saying it would break the lightning network and cause a lot of problems for operators. And

832
00:57:42.359 --> 00:57:43.500
I'm proud to say

833
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:51.900
it didn't cause issues at all. Perhaps we didn't really push it to the limit. Maybe if we had, you know, hundreds of thousands of people really slamming on it,

834
00:57:52.279 --> 00:57:56.115
it could potentially be an issue. But I think we've dissuaded a lot of that.

835
00:57:57.075 --> 00:57:59.975
In cases in which you were having a lot of flows, you could just open

836
00:58:00.355 --> 00:58:01.095
up new channels,

837
00:58:01.795 --> 00:58:02.535
more channels,

838
00:58:04.595 --> 00:58:06.375
to the source of those payments.

839
00:58:08.195 --> 00:58:14.830
With that being said, we now have more options now for how you wanna use the lightning address. There's the app blocker mode

840
00:58:15.450 --> 00:58:18.030
that anyone could use if they're using an LND node.

841
00:58:19.050 --> 00:58:21.070
They have the Cashew mode,

842
00:58:21.450 --> 00:58:25.310
which you can use if you have the Cashew wallet with your embedded LND node.

843
00:58:25.685 --> 00:58:28.984
And now we have a third mode, which is the Nasr Wallet Connect

844
00:58:29.605 --> 00:58:38.025
method. So if you have a remote node that has Nasr Wallet Connect as a connection method on it, you can receive payments directly to your remote node twenty four seven.

845
00:58:38.790 --> 00:58:40.010
And, basically,

846
00:58:40.390 --> 00:58:42.890
you can switch between those three modes,

847
00:58:43.670 --> 00:58:46.890
seamlessly depending on what your current wallet supports.

848
00:58:47.510 --> 00:58:49.690
You could go into your use pay settings

849
00:58:50.070 --> 00:58:51.050
and say, hey.

850
00:58:51.910 --> 00:58:53.210
I wanna go to

851
00:58:53.675 --> 00:58:54.815
Cashew right now

852
00:58:55.195 --> 00:58:57.455
or Cashew. I I was sorta like saying Cashew.

853
00:58:58.155 --> 00:59:08.175
Let's let's normalize that. Or, like, you wanna switch back to your remote node. And I've sort of been hopping between the three address types the last couple weeks, sort of having those fallbacks.

854
00:59:08.700 --> 00:59:09.760
For now, manually

855
00:59:10.460 --> 00:59:10.960
choosing,

856
00:59:11.900 --> 00:59:13.920
which one's enabled at any given time.

857
00:59:14.460 --> 00:59:23.865
But, yeah, it could totally evolve into the point where we have, like, a a hierarchy where you say, hey. Try hitting this mint. Try hitting this mint. Fall back to my

858
00:59:24.345 --> 00:59:29.965
Albi Hub, and I'll connect mode. And if that doesn't work, just let me go to Zap locker,

859
00:59:30.425 --> 00:59:32.125
which would be a very interesting,

860
00:59:34.185 --> 00:59:43.030
product. I mean, hell. If you a payment's coming in, you wanna receive it one way or another. Right? You don't wanna miss an incoming Zap. So why not give people the optionality

861
00:59:44.210 --> 00:59:47.829
to make sure that they don't miss a single set? You'll sort it out later.

862
00:59:49.089 --> 00:59:51.910
So we have a lot of flexibility with this product,

863
00:59:53.065 --> 00:59:56.125
and we're excited to see it evolve further and

864
00:59:56.505 --> 00:59:58.525
excited to see how people like it. But,

865
00:59:59.865 --> 01:00:01.165
obviously, with the Cashew,

866
01:00:01.625 --> 01:00:05.805
much better user experience for the senders. They're not wait worrying about these pending payments.

867
01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:21.300
For the receivers, they're not worrying about having to redeem the payments within twenty four hours. And for people running the remote nodes, they don't have to worry about redeeming payments in the app at all. They just land on the node. They get a notification that it's there, and

868
01:00:22.145 --> 01:00:22.964
that's that.

869
01:00:23.585 --> 01:00:24.085
So

870
01:00:24.625 --> 01:00:26.165
tons of flexibility So it

871
01:00:27.345 --> 01:00:28.085
it it changes

872
01:00:28.545 --> 01:00:33.444
my suffix when I change it. Right? Now I'm at Odell at Zeus nuts dot com.

873
01:00:34.305 --> 01:00:42.080
Yeah. You're on so by default, the cash users will use Zeus nuts when you switch to and that's probably why you couldn't make the payment earlier.

874
01:00:42.780 --> 01:00:46.240
Wait. So I mean, I mean, I didn't realize I had to change it in settings, but

875
01:00:47.675 --> 01:01:04.430
it doesn't mean I lose Odell at Zeus Pay if I switch to Odell at Zeus Nuts. Right? No. No. You're locked in. We wouldn't let people split that up. We don't need more Odell imposters. No. You are the of Zeus Nuts and Zeus Pay. It's just a matter when it's active at a given time.

876
01:01:04.890 --> 01:01:17.550
But they both can't be active at the same time. It's not like if someone pays Zeus Pay when I have Zeus Nuts active, it's just a failed payment. Right? No. Maybe we'll tweak that over time, but right now, you're the only Odell on the Zeus Stack. Okay.

877
01:01:17.915 --> 01:01:19.055
Well, I really like

878
01:01:19.595 --> 01:01:20.095
the

879
01:01:20.875 --> 01:01:21.775
I like the

880
01:01:22.714 --> 01:01:27.214
idea of a fallback. Right? Because I just wanna ex I wanna be able to accept the payment regardless.

881
01:01:27.675 --> 01:01:28.175
Yeah.

882
01:01:28.635 --> 01:01:32.335
And, ideally, I mean, I think I'd rather accept it to

883
01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.500
my sovereign lightning channel.

884
01:01:36.120 --> 01:01:44.700
But if I don't have capacity, then it be able to fall back would be kinda nice. Maybe that's a premium feature. Maybe you can monetize on that.

885
01:01:46.005 --> 01:01:49.224
So just to be clear, Odell@ZeusNutz.com,

886
01:01:49.765 --> 01:01:51.865
if I I can receive zaps to that,

887
01:01:52.484 --> 01:01:59.065
and there's no Zap there's no Zap locker thing. It's just instant. Right? It's instant. The sender will have their payment completed

888
01:01:59.960 --> 01:02:00.460
automatically.

889
01:02:01.640 --> 01:02:02.859
There's no limit

890
01:02:03.160 --> 01:02:06.859
to how big or how small those payments can be as long

891
01:02:07.160 --> 01:02:11.420
as the mint has inbound capacity. You could send a payment as small as one sat

892
01:02:11.815 --> 01:02:14.235
to as big as whatever the Mint can handle.

893
01:02:15.655 --> 01:02:19.035
You don't have to worry about redeeming them within twenty four hours.

894
01:02:19.415 --> 01:02:24.395
By default, when your Zeus wallet starts up, it'll redeem them. I know we made a ton of optimizations

895
01:02:24.695 --> 01:02:28.020
to ZeusPay. So even if you're using Zaplocker, if you're using Cashew,

896
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:29.300
whatever,

897
01:02:29.600 --> 01:02:35.060
the redemption process is about 50% quicker, so it's gonna fly by redeeming those.

898
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:37.780
And, yeah, we we've got some really novel,

899
01:02:39.120 --> 01:02:40.580
stuff under the hood where

900
01:02:41.120 --> 01:02:41.620
your

901
01:02:42.080 --> 01:02:47.565
Zap is locked to your Cashew wallet's pub key so that we can't really,

902
01:02:48.665 --> 01:02:52.365
take that away from you. That that belongs to you as long as you still have your keys.

903
01:02:52.984 --> 01:02:57.085
So a lot of cool. There, a lot of great UX improvements.

904
01:02:58.329 --> 01:03:02.030
And, yeah, we think that people using the embedded LND node,

905
01:03:03.130 --> 01:03:07.550
having channels even may still wanna just keep the Cashew wallet just for the better UX.

906
01:03:08.250 --> 01:03:13.390
And then we'll probably add, like, an automated threshold where it says, okay. Once I have

907
01:03:14.195 --> 01:03:15.655
a 10,000

908
01:03:15.795 --> 01:03:17.495
sats in the Cashew wallet,

909
01:03:17.955 --> 01:03:19.895
let me just swap that automatically

910
01:03:20.595 --> 01:03:21.255
to lightning.

911
01:03:22.275 --> 01:03:29.335
So a lot of our stuff is largely still focused around self custody and making sure that we provide the best experience

912
01:03:30.490 --> 01:03:35.390
on that front. And we think that with ECash, we got a lot of awesome experiences

913
01:03:36.410 --> 01:03:38.190
that we couldn't do previously.

914
01:03:39.530 --> 01:03:41.150
Like, we have someone

915
01:03:41.450 --> 01:03:43.630
who's been asking us to add gifting

916
01:03:44.235 --> 01:03:54.175
into Zeus for years now, like, the last three, four years. They're like, we just simply can't do it without having a custodial aspect, and we don't wanna be responsible for holding users' funds.

917
01:03:54.875 --> 01:03:56.095
But now with Cashew

918
01:03:56.680 --> 01:03:58.220
being able to mint a token,

919
01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:00.540
give it to someone,

920
01:04:02.040 --> 01:04:06.220
even post that QR, that token string on social media,

921
01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:20.575
is amazing. And if no one redeems it, like, if you try to gift it to, like, your server or something, you could check-in on the status of the token. They're like, oh, if it's been thirty days, this jerk didn't take the free money I gave him. You can just pull it back,

922
01:04:21.195 --> 01:04:22.335
which is amazing.

923
01:04:22.875 --> 01:04:27.569
And, we made it very clear in the Zeus UI when you have tokens that you've issued,

924
01:04:28.430 --> 01:04:40.130
that haven't been redeemed yet, you just get the little eCash icon in your wallet header. So you could always just check-in on those, see how they're going, see how long it takes for Bob at the bar to claim his free sats or not.

925
01:04:40.765 --> 01:04:41.505
That's awesome.

926
01:04:42.205 --> 01:04:50.705
So that's just, like, something we weren't able to do before, and we think it makes for a fantastic UX, something that we wanna check off for a long time.

927
01:04:51.965 --> 01:04:57.770
Oh, so I have to actually go to the lightning address and press redeem to to have it show up in my wallet?

928
01:04:59.110 --> 01:05:00.550
No. There should be,

929
01:05:00.950 --> 01:05:04.330
an automatic redeem functionality just like the Zap locker.

930
01:05:06.470 --> 01:05:14.075
What in settings? Yeah. So if that's not working, it might be one of the quirks we gotta work out in the alpha. We'll be doing some testing. But

931
01:05:14.615 --> 01:05:16.955
Well, we're we're testing it live on air.

932
01:05:17.335 --> 01:05:17.835
I'm,

933
01:05:18.775 --> 01:05:20.315
I'm pressing redeem now.

934
01:05:22.535 --> 01:05:25.675
I sent myself sats to my Zeus nuts.

935
01:05:27.030 --> 01:05:28.010
I got it.

936
01:05:28.310 --> 01:05:28.890
It worked.

937
01:05:30.470 --> 01:05:33.210
How often does a demo do live work? You're

938
01:05:34.150 --> 01:05:34.650
Check.

939
01:05:35.430 --> 01:05:39.370
Well, I mean, it didn't auto redeem. It's the only kinda work. One of two.

940
01:05:41.445 --> 01:05:48.345
That's a it's a win. Is it was it supposed to auto am I supposed to change something in settings? Or it should be on by default.

941
01:05:49.045 --> 01:05:49.545
Maybe

942
01:05:50.005 --> 01:05:50.905
it Automatically

943
01:05:51.285 --> 01:05:59.000
accept payments on startup. Only is sweeping them right now when you open the wallet up, but didn't catch it as it was coming in live.

944
01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:04.680
But, yeah, they should they should Okay. By the time, it should be

945
01:06:05.300 --> 01:06:07.560
sweeping them as you get them into the wallet.

946
01:06:09.515 --> 01:06:12.015
It's pretty clean, man. It's it's impressive.

947
01:06:12.555 --> 01:06:13.115
Yeah. Well,

948
01:06:13.755 --> 01:06:20.735
we we spent a lot of time thinking about the UI. Go on. We had a lot of pages to pull from a lot of the existing Cashew wallets,

949
01:06:21.195 --> 01:06:21.695
and

950
01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:24.859
we we did a lot of,

951
01:06:25.240 --> 01:06:26.299
it's called dogfooding,

952
01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:31.420
where we just try out the product ourselves for weeks and weeks. We took a lot we we built it

953
01:06:31.720 --> 01:06:34.539
very quickly because Cashew is very easy to build upon,

954
01:06:34.839 --> 01:06:36.299
but we spent some time

955
01:06:36.905 --> 01:06:38.285
just testing it relentlessly

956
01:06:38.825 --> 01:06:46.445
and making sure everything works. We don't want anyone to lose any more money than they have to, you know, if they're gonna be getting rugged every week from their badmints.

957
01:06:48.185 --> 01:06:48.345
So

958
01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:54.020
Wow. Someone's still a little bit salty. Were you talking shit about Cashew

959
01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:56.819
publicly while you were building it in the background?

960
01:06:57.280 --> 01:07:01.619
No. I mean, I always make jokes about it. You know my personality. Like,

961
01:07:02.315 --> 01:07:02.815
I

962
01:07:03.195 --> 01:07:08.735
Yeah. I mean, you announced it on April fools. Kale didn't even if I was gonna rug him or not. I'm like

963
01:07:10.235 --> 01:07:17.135
people are like, is this real? Is this real? And, Kale is like, I I don't I'm not not sure if it's real. And I'm like, is it real, Kale,

964
01:07:18.119 --> 01:07:22.460
or am I teaching you an intro lesson about how it feels to be rugged?

965
01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:30.059
But he's got a good sense of humor too. He enjoyed it. He's he's happy once he finally saw the code. He's like, oh, okay.

966
01:07:30.495 --> 01:07:31.795
I'm gonna fork this.

967
01:07:32.415 --> 01:07:34.995
I knew I knew you guys weren't gonna rag us.

968
01:07:36.255 --> 01:07:52.630
Okay. So you mentioned swaps. What do you have in mind with swaps? How does that impact the user? What would the flow look like? Are you using bolts like everybody else? Okay. So swaps, we're really excited about. We have it running on Testnet now. We are about to deploy our mainnet instance after

969
01:07:53.170 --> 01:07:56.070
just grinding it out. There's gonna be both,

970
01:07:56.370 --> 01:07:59.030
a web interface as well as an integration

971
01:07:59.330 --> 01:08:00.470
directly in the wallet.

972
01:08:01.974 --> 01:08:02.795
It is,

973
01:08:03.335 --> 01:08:06.875
at present, based off of Boltz. So we fork Boltz off.

974
01:08:07.655 --> 01:08:09.435
We are gonna be running our own instance,

975
01:08:10.535 --> 01:08:13.115
but users will have the ability to point to any

976
01:08:13.860 --> 01:08:14.360
Bolt

977
01:08:14.660 --> 01:08:18.280
powered swap service. So we're gonna have, like, three or four defaults.

978
01:08:18.660 --> 01:08:20.120
The Zeus one will be

979
01:08:20.500 --> 01:08:23.720
the default, of course, but it's trivial to switch between them,

980
01:08:24.980 --> 01:08:28.520
shop between all the different prices. Although we're gonna be trying to,

981
01:08:29.315 --> 01:08:30.054
keep it

982
01:08:31.315 --> 01:08:36.534
at the same pricing as the Bolt Exchange service. They've just built a great product.

983
01:08:38.514 --> 01:08:40.375
It's quite likely we'll

984
01:08:41.900 --> 01:08:46.800
derive it a little bit more as time goes on. We have some interesting concepts that we wanna explore.

985
01:08:47.739 --> 01:08:50.480
Hopefully, we can submit some of them upstream to bolts.

986
01:08:51.980 --> 01:08:56.239
But, yeah, we just think there's a great demand for people to be able to

987
01:08:57.255 --> 01:08:58.235
get their funds,

988
01:08:59.495 --> 01:09:05.035
some funds off of Lightning to Unchained without having to close out the entire channel, especially now

989
01:09:05.575 --> 01:09:09.515
that L and D is in a bit of a weird state where they don't quite have splicing yet.

990
01:09:10.040 --> 01:09:12.620
It's not trivial to get those funds out.

991
01:09:14.600 --> 01:09:15.100
And,

992
01:09:16.680 --> 01:09:20.460
it's just in a very interesting business proposition for us too because,

993
01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:27.395
you know, we could charge on the swaps. We already have this experience running these lightning nodes and managing liquidity.

994
01:09:28.495 --> 01:09:30.915
And instead of having to commit to these,

995
01:09:31.614 --> 01:09:40.890
you know, arrangements where people are locking up your liquidity for, you know, two weeks to a year in the lightning channels, a swap only takes, you know, up to twenty minutes worst case scenario. Case scenario.

996
01:09:41.989 --> 01:09:44.489
So it's a little bit easier to manage in that regard.

997
01:09:45.750 --> 01:09:46.890
As far as a user

998
01:09:47.270 --> 01:09:47.770
goes,

999
01:09:48.790 --> 01:09:51.050
we have a really clean UI.

1000
01:09:51.670 --> 01:09:54.890
It's trivial to pull out funds from individual channels

1001
01:09:55.575 --> 01:09:59.515
in the Zeus UI. We'll be iterating on it too so you get

1002
01:10:00.055 --> 01:10:01.995
really granular with a very clear

1003
01:10:02.455 --> 01:10:04.075
UI as you go on.

1004
01:10:05.015 --> 01:10:10.475
And you could basically use it with any of the interfaces as long as you have an on chain address

1005
01:10:10.980 --> 01:10:12.200
to spit out to.

1006
01:10:12.580 --> 01:10:15.880
We'll help you generate an address just internally with one click.

1007
01:10:16.980 --> 01:10:25.335
But you could also point it to an external address, whether it be an external bolt 11 address or an external address depending on what direction you're going.

1008
01:10:25.715 --> 01:10:27.415
Just have a lot of added flexibility

1009
01:10:28.514 --> 01:10:30.614
and a lot better user experience

1010
01:10:30.995 --> 01:10:32.054
in a lot of regards.

1011
01:10:32.594 --> 01:10:36.215
And, hell, the ability to mix the Cashew and the swaps together, like,

1012
01:10:37.680 --> 01:10:39.140
put all these nuts together,

1013
01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:42.900
go right to an on chain address that's potentially

1014
01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:47.140
The opposite is even more powerful.

1015
01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:48.020
Like,

1016
01:10:48.560 --> 01:10:51.140
using Cashew as a for newcomer,

1017
01:10:52.205 --> 01:10:56.385
they need Lightning sats to begin with because you can't deposit on chain.

1018
01:10:58.765 --> 01:11:02.065
But with this, presumably, they could install Zeus,

1019
01:11:03.725 --> 01:11:06.065
open a Casu wallet, and then

1020
01:11:07.219 --> 01:11:11.080
send Bitcoin from their exchange that doesn't support Lightning directly into

1021
01:11:12.260 --> 01:11:12.760
the

1022
01:11:13.060 --> 01:11:18.920
to the charming eCash wallet. Right? Just swap it right in. However you want. Bitcoin payments, you're away.

1023
01:11:19.824 --> 01:11:22.785
That's So now we have a wallet that has all these different

1024
01:11:23.505 --> 01:11:29.685
Right? Yeah. Go on. We have self custodial lightning, of course. We have the on chain wallet. We have eCash,

1025
01:11:30.545 --> 01:11:33.685
and we have support for these external signers, like your

1026
01:11:34.130 --> 01:11:37.350
hardware wallet, like a cold card queue or seed signer.

1027
01:11:38.370 --> 01:11:44.710
You could basically go any direction, swap between them however you see fit with a combination of

1028
01:11:45.810 --> 01:11:46.310
melting

1029
01:11:47.010 --> 01:11:49.515
a nut out of a mint and the swap service,

1030
01:11:50.695 --> 01:11:53.515
opening, closing channels, however you see fit.

1031
01:11:55.095 --> 01:12:04.690
Complete freedom to do whatever you want. We're gonna provide rails for you to sort of guide you to the direction, but if you want, you could just take those those bumpers off

1032
01:12:05.310 --> 01:12:06.770
and do as you see fit.

1033
01:12:07.790 --> 01:12:11.890
So ahead of us for the rest of the year after we get 11 o out,

1034
01:12:12.429 --> 01:12:19.785
we have a lot of challenges. And they're not so much technical anymore because we've gotten everything that we want running in this app, basically. Basically.

1035
01:12:20.885 --> 01:12:21.385
But

1036
01:12:22.005 --> 01:12:37.780
it's all gonna be focused on the interface and the user experience and how we make it as simple as possible for the newcomers while maintaining all the full functionality that we've built over the years. So we're So we're really excited for this new challenge we had have ahead of us.

1037
01:12:40.320 --> 01:12:45.780
The product is really undergoing an evolution, and we think we're gonna hit a maturity point

1038
01:12:47.175 --> 01:12:50.235
where it's ready to put this one point o label on.

1039
01:12:50.614 --> 01:12:51.275
So we have

1040
01:12:52.534 --> 01:12:54.795
so much to be excited about with all these pieces,

1041
01:12:57.415 --> 01:12:59.755
but yet the work still continues because

1042
01:13:01.620 --> 01:13:02.120
design,

1043
01:13:02.500 --> 01:13:03.400
UI, UX,

1044
01:13:04.100 --> 01:13:05.320
it's a whole other beast.

1045
01:13:05.940 --> 01:13:08.360
So just time to put another hat on soon.

1046
01:13:13.165 --> 01:13:15.264
I love it. You're crushing it.

1047
01:13:15.565 --> 01:13:16.784
Keep up the good work.

1048
01:13:18.685 --> 01:13:23.105
So we you've mentioned many different ways you can use Zeus, on chain,

1049
01:13:23.645 --> 01:13:26.304
self custody Lightning, custodial Lightning.

1050
01:13:27.780 --> 01:13:35.720
We're seeing a new trend with wallets that was started with Aqua Wallet and then recently with Breeze's latest wallet, Misty Breeze,

1051
01:13:36.180 --> 01:13:38.040
to use liquid with swaps.

1052
01:13:40.105 --> 01:13:48.764
So liquid at rest. Do you keep money on liquid? And then when you wanna make a lightning transaction, there's a an on demand swap happens.

1053
01:13:50.905 --> 01:13:52.445
What are your thoughts on liquid?

1054
01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:57.420
Do you plan on adding Tether to your wallet?

1055
01:13:58.440 --> 01:14:00.860
How are you thinking about this? Liquid

1056
01:14:01.719 --> 01:14:04.219
is fine if you're upfront with

1057
01:14:04.679 --> 01:14:06.460
your users about what it is.

1058
01:14:06.915 --> 01:14:08.855
It's a custodial side chain.

1059
01:14:09.395 --> 01:14:14.295
Liquid's got a lot of perks because it's got all these different partners signing off on it.

1060
01:14:15.074 --> 01:14:18.375
But at the same time, we don't know who all the signers are, Matt.

1061
01:14:19.320 --> 01:14:20.300
That's not great.

1062
01:14:26.040 --> 01:14:27.980
As far as these products go,

1063
01:14:29.720 --> 01:14:31.020
the end user experience

1064
01:14:32.885 --> 01:14:37.705
is really good in a lot of ways. It's, like, easy to use, easy to get set up with. Right?

1065
01:14:38.245 --> 01:14:41.705
Have your balance in liquid. You can have a seed you can restore from.

1066
01:14:45.900 --> 01:14:49.200
The limitations, though, and the fees have some room for improvement.

1067
01:14:51.020 --> 01:14:55.680
The swaps can be costly, and that's what the service providers are really

1068
01:14:56.620 --> 01:15:00.400
depending on. In a lot of cases, having a self custodial channel

1069
01:15:00.715 --> 01:15:01.695
is actually cheaper.

1070
01:15:02.555 --> 01:15:04.815
And then you also have these constraints with

1071
01:15:05.995 --> 01:15:07.455
what amounts you can send,

1072
01:15:08.475 --> 01:15:12.655
and how they actually end up operating. Let's say if you bootstrap a

1073
01:15:12.980 --> 01:15:14.360
lightning address to them,

1074
01:15:14.980 --> 01:15:19.880
you have, like, these limits used. In a lot of cases, they need to be big enough to justify a swap,

1075
01:15:20.820 --> 01:15:26.120
or they end up being even more custodial than it would be to just use liquid by itself.

1076
01:15:27.355 --> 01:15:30.415
And then those fees aren't great. Like, if you were to

1077
01:15:31.995 --> 01:15:34.655
receive a hundred sat zap and

1078
01:15:35.435 --> 01:15:38.335
have to pay 45 of those sats

1079
01:15:38.875 --> 01:15:40.015
per swap costs,

1080
01:15:40.920 --> 01:15:43.660
it's not so great for those users getting set up.

1081
01:15:44.440 --> 01:15:45.500
Well, when I was

1082
01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:47.420
when I was testing

1083
01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:48.380
Misty,

1084
01:15:49.480 --> 01:15:53.420
they they just don't let you do payments underneath under a thousand SATs.

1085
01:15:55.295 --> 01:15:57.235
Is there a way around that, I guess?

1086
01:15:57.775 --> 01:16:06.835
Or make sure the user doesn't have all their sats eaten up by fees. It's tough. It's tough when you're doing these swap based things. Right? Like and we saw it

1087
01:16:07.470 --> 01:16:07.970
with,

1088
01:16:08.590 --> 01:16:11.470
with Moon Wallet. Right? Like, all these wallets are really just

1089
01:16:12.910 --> 01:16:13.650
Yeah. Liquid.

1090
01:16:14.350 --> 01:16:14.850
So

1091
01:16:15.390 --> 01:16:16.610
a little less intensive.

1092
01:16:17.310 --> 01:16:19.250
They'll scale better with the feed market,

1093
01:16:19.785 --> 01:16:25.965
but they really still have all these same constraints with the UTXOs on their their chains even if they are side chains.

1094
01:16:29.065 --> 01:16:29.725
I think

1095
01:16:30.745 --> 01:16:32.125
I'm really more intrigued

1096
01:16:32.425 --> 01:16:33.805
by what's gonna

1097
01:16:34.449 --> 01:16:36.630
shake out with some of these other systems.

1098
01:16:37.489 --> 01:16:40.790
I know, at Zeus, we're keeping our eyes close on

1099
01:16:41.489 --> 01:16:41.989
Arc,

1100
01:16:42.369 --> 01:16:46.469
which is really interesting, but has its own set of challenges for sure.

1101
01:16:47.795 --> 01:16:48.615
But I think

1102
01:16:49.155 --> 01:16:50.455
could end up having

1103
01:16:51.875 --> 01:16:53.655
a a better user experience

1104
01:16:54.835 --> 01:16:56.455
as well as some other

1105
01:16:57.075 --> 01:16:59.255
proposals that we find really interesting that

1106
01:16:59.630 --> 01:17:04.210
we're keeping our eyes on that we could potentially see in, like, a Zeus two point o.

1107
01:17:06.270 --> 01:17:07.170
Like what?

1108
01:17:08.989 --> 01:17:10.290
You know, there's just

1109
01:17:11.705 --> 01:17:15.725
a couple of interesting proposals. Our friend, Supertestnet. So Super,

1110
01:17:16.185 --> 01:17:17.245
we worked on,

1111
01:17:17.625 --> 01:17:20.925
the Zap locker spec together, got that into Zeus.

1112
01:17:21.385 --> 01:17:24.525
He's got a protocol called Hedgehog, and he's been

1113
01:17:26.530 --> 01:17:27.830
strapping that onto

1114
01:17:28.770 --> 01:17:32.070
a coin pool scheme, which is super interesting.

1115
01:17:32.770 --> 01:17:35.350
And, honestly, it doesn't have enough people looking at it.

1116
01:17:35.730 --> 01:17:38.925
I think there's some problems that he still needs to address in it,

1117
01:17:39.485 --> 01:17:42.224
but I think the properties that it has

1118
01:17:42.764 --> 01:17:43.585
are just unbelievable.

1119
01:17:44.284 --> 01:17:46.465
You get a lot of the perks that you get with

1120
01:17:47.324 --> 01:17:47.824
eCash

1121
01:17:48.204 --> 01:17:50.864
and Cashew, like, being able to send asynchronously

1122
01:17:51.950 --> 01:17:54.130
and have these tokens that could be redeemed,

1123
01:17:54.590 --> 01:17:55.970
better onboarding flows.

1124
01:17:56.910 --> 01:18:00.690
But to do it all in a self custodial manner, it's sort of like a holy grail.

1125
01:18:01.390 --> 01:18:03.250
So we're taking a look at that,

1126
01:18:04.030 --> 01:18:06.290
trying to help push that along where we can.

1127
01:18:07.545 --> 01:18:08.045
And,

1128
01:18:08.985 --> 01:18:12.605
yeah, we're just generally being open to things. Like,

1129
01:18:13.465 --> 01:18:15.085
we know that with this technology,

1130
01:18:16.505 --> 01:18:17.805
things are changing rapidly.

1131
01:18:18.265 --> 01:18:21.645
The way people use Bitcoin self custodially right now

1132
01:18:22.420 --> 01:18:25.400
is gonna be very different than it looks like in five years and ten years.

1133
01:18:26.500 --> 01:18:30.840
I think we have some sort of, like, solace in the fact that Lightning is working so well.

1134
01:18:31.619 --> 01:18:33.079
I think it's proven its

1135
01:18:33.940 --> 01:18:38.415
placement as the payment rails. The way that you're gonna clear these payments,

1136
01:18:39.355 --> 01:18:40.175
near instantly

1137
01:18:40.795 --> 01:18:43.535
and sort of being this bridge between all these different systems.

1138
01:18:47.355 --> 01:18:51.535
But there's, like, this interesting battle brewing right now to see how people

1139
01:18:52.659 --> 01:18:54.360
are going to be using Bitcoin.

1140
01:18:55.300 --> 01:18:58.599
And we need to be open to exploring them all,

1141
01:18:59.539 --> 01:19:04.520
chasing down all the value propositions of them, seeing what the trade offs are,

1142
01:19:05.385 --> 01:19:06.925
and sort of being,

1143
01:19:07.545 --> 01:19:09.965
you know, realistic in in

1144
01:19:10.265 --> 01:19:12.445
what people are gonna end up using because,

1145
01:19:13.385 --> 01:19:15.325
like I said, the behavior that

1146
01:19:16.185 --> 01:19:20.190
is apparent right now where people are just chasing yield on ETFs,

1147
01:19:21.290 --> 01:19:24.270
you know, is is really not the world that we wanna be in.

1148
01:19:26.810 --> 01:19:29.390
I mean, the dream wallet would be

1149
01:19:29.850 --> 01:19:31.790
if I could hold MSTY

1150
01:19:32.730 --> 01:19:34.635
in my Zeus wallet

1151
01:19:35.175 --> 01:19:38.715
and then have the dividends auto swap into Cashew

1152
01:19:39.175 --> 01:19:40.475
so then I can just

1153
01:19:40.855 --> 01:19:41.915
pay for my coffee?

1154
01:19:42.775 --> 01:19:44.395
Maybe. I mean, that'd be interesting.

1155
01:19:45.175 --> 01:19:46.455
I mean, we saw

1156
01:19:46.910 --> 01:19:50.450
we see we're we're seeing a lot of interesting stuff going on right now. Right?

1157
01:19:52.830 --> 01:19:58.050
I mean, I was just fucking around. Obviously, that's not what I want. No. Don't no. Hey. Listen. Don't take it up against you.

1158
01:19:59.655 --> 01:20:01.915
You you're gonna take it, Matt. Right?

1159
01:20:02.775 --> 01:20:05.755
You'll be dead where the yield comes from. It's all about the yield.

1160
01:20:07.095 --> 01:20:12.120
But, no. I don't know, man. We'll we'll we'll we'll see. About that cash flow. See how things freak out.

1161
01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:16.620
Obviously, this there seems to be some focus on bringing stables to

1162
01:20:17.480 --> 01:20:18.700
Bitcoin, which

1163
01:20:20.040 --> 01:20:23.180
obviously comes with a lot of pros and cons.

1164
01:20:25.515 --> 01:20:27.855
Yeah. How do you feel about that? Terrified

1165
01:20:29.835 --> 01:20:31.215
at how it could go wrong,

1166
01:20:32.235 --> 01:20:33.135
first and foremost,

1167
01:20:33.755 --> 01:20:36.015
but I understand why a lot of people are

1168
01:20:37.115 --> 01:20:37.615
getting,

1169
01:20:38.230 --> 01:20:41.210
excited about it. And I really do think it could

1170
01:20:41.750 --> 01:20:43.530
do some crazy things for

1171
01:20:44.630 --> 01:20:46.650
you know, it could open up a lot of doors,

1172
01:20:47.830 --> 01:20:49.610
for what these flows look like.

1173
01:20:50.165 --> 01:20:52.425
I I think we just need to be careful about

1174
01:20:53.605 --> 01:20:55.545
I mean, we're already playing with fire,

1175
01:20:57.364 --> 01:21:00.505
having all of these nation like In what way?

1176
01:21:02.245 --> 01:21:05.065
I mean, obviously, Bitcoin is not meant for

1177
01:21:05.659 --> 01:21:09.760
governments to embrace and be like, oh, yeah. This is gonna be great. Like,

1178
01:21:11.420 --> 01:21:15.840
what happens when they show up for the next soft fork meeting and they're like, no. I don't think so.

1179
01:21:16.699 --> 01:21:19.599
We got all these economic nodes, and we're gonna

1180
01:21:20.655 --> 01:21:23.155
signal that we're not activating this

1181
01:21:24.495 --> 01:21:26.595
upgrade that we need. Like, that that would

1182
01:21:27.535 --> 01:21:29.555
be pretty bad. But at the same time,

1183
01:21:30.975 --> 01:21:34.595
if they're just running the same code that everyone else is running,

1184
01:21:36.020 --> 01:21:37.800
There's a limit to how much pain

1185
01:21:38.180 --> 01:21:39.640
they could on us.

1186
01:21:40.260 --> 01:21:43.080
At the same time, we also have these ETFs, a lot

1187
01:21:43.860 --> 01:21:46.500
of paper Bitcoin in the air that can

1188
01:21:47.940 --> 01:21:48.520
you know,

1189
01:21:48.900 --> 01:21:54.515
I I think we're evidencing it right now. Like, there's a lot of on suppression.

1190
01:21:55.215 --> 01:21:57.715
The same sort of thing that happened when gold ETFs,

1191
01:21:58.575 --> 01:22:03.155
got spun up. Obviously, these guys in the middle wanna make a buck on it where they can.

1192
01:22:06.255 --> 01:22:06.755
And

1193
01:22:08.430 --> 01:22:12.210
You think you think ETFs are already playing paper Bitcoin games,

1194
01:22:13.710 --> 01:22:15.010
like fractionally reserve?

1195
01:22:15.790 --> 01:22:17.710
It's the temptation is so

1196
01:22:18.830 --> 01:22:20.530
I mean, it's a pretty bold claim.

1197
01:22:21.550 --> 01:22:23.090
I mean, I think

1198
01:22:24.485 --> 01:22:34.665
we'd be foolish to not think that people would at least try. I don't know what how widespread the practice is. I I don't have evidence directly of people doing it. I'm not bringing it to,

1199
01:22:35.045 --> 01:22:37.945
you know, the SEC right now. I'm not that guy.

1200
01:22:38.570 --> 01:22:41.390
Probably wouldn't be. Not right now.

1201
01:22:41.770 --> 01:22:43.870
No. No. No. No. No. That's that's not

1202
01:22:44.330 --> 01:22:45.070
my forte.

1203
01:22:45.450 --> 01:22:46.750
But come on. I mean,

1204
01:22:47.210 --> 01:22:48.910
you know, human nature. People

1205
01:22:50.090 --> 01:22:53.870
are fallible. They're gonna do bad stuff if they have the opportunity to do so.

1206
01:22:55.505 --> 01:22:56.485
No. I agree.

1207
01:22:57.985 --> 01:23:01.125
I just I mean, I think it'd be pretty quick for them to

1208
01:23:01.665 --> 01:23:02.804
I don't know if they're

1209
01:23:03.505 --> 01:23:04.405
doing it yet.

1210
01:23:06.145 --> 01:23:13.220
There's no way for us to verify. Right? That's the dangerous part. And no one's no one's doing proof of reserves except for Bitb

1211
01:23:14.960 --> 01:23:21.940
and Meta Planet and the South and Dorn government. Like, really the only saving grace we have is that the cost of doing that

1212
01:23:22.400 --> 01:23:23.460
is so low.

1213
01:23:24.080 --> 01:23:27.135
But unless it become common yeah. What

1214
01:23:27.675 --> 01:23:32.735
privileges? If the holders of those ETFs demand it and it becomes common practice, then

1215
01:23:33.195 --> 01:23:37.135
we can totally end up in this crazy fractional reserve world.

1216
01:23:39.690 --> 01:23:42.270
Well, I mean, I think the the combination

1217
01:23:44.810 --> 01:23:50.670
of so many places so many Bitcoin exchanges, and then the fact that you can easily self custody

1218
01:23:51.770 --> 01:23:56.995
makes it very different than gold. Like, try and take settlement of a million dollars worth of gold.

1219
01:23:57.375 --> 01:23:59.635
That'd be a pain in the ass. Like, your wife is

1220
01:24:00.015 --> 01:24:06.275
I mean, she'll be happy that she has a million dollars worth of gold, but she'd be kinda pissed off if, like, the truck pulls up, and it's like a whole fucking thing.

1221
01:24:08.560 --> 01:24:15.699
With Bitcoin, you don't have that issue. So if you have enough people taking self custody, eventually, anyone who plays games should get wrecked,

1222
01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:22.880
just blowing the fuck out. But we got And I think that looks like in private. That's what protects us. Saying this all time. It's like

1223
01:24:23.784 --> 01:24:28.605
It'll be messy as fuck is what it's gonna be, but, like and people will lose a lot of money,

1224
01:24:29.385 --> 01:24:38.025
but I think it happens. I, like, I I think it's it's the natural protection mechanism we have. Right? Yeah. It's just unfortunate that,

1225
01:24:38.770 --> 01:24:41.909
you know, some of these players are getting so big. They're gonna have such

1226
01:24:43.250 --> 01:24:46.070
downstream effects on people who actually get hurt.

1227
01:24:49.170 --> 01:24:52.630
But if you think about it right? So let's just walk through it.

1228
01:24:54.555 --> 01:24:57.855
Self cuss if you're holding Bitcoin self custody, right,

1229
01:24:58.315 --> 01:24:59.295
and let's use,

1230
01:25:00.795 --> 01:25:06.335
let's use BlackRock as an example. Let's say BlackRock doesn't have all the Bitcoin that they're say they do.

1231
01:25:07.195 --> 01:25:07.695
And

1232
01:25:08.719 --> 01:25:11.780
they try and suppress the price, and they're successful with

1233
01:25:12.080 --> 01:25:15.060
it. And then enough people are just constantly

1234
01:25:15.440 --> 01:25:17.140
stacking Sats to cold storage

1235
01:25:17.679 --> 01:25:18.420
that eventually

1236
01:25:18.960 --> 01:25:22.340
the price suppression breaks and Bitcoin runs to the upside.

1237
01:25:23.574 --> 01:25:30.315
And we have, you know, a couple weeks where we just go up 20% or 30%, and they're underwater and they're freaking out.

1238
01:25:31.094 --> 01:25:34.554
And someone figures it out, and they just blow the fuck up.

1239
01:25:34.970 --> 01:25:38.110
Now if you're holding the BlackRock ETF, you just

1240
01:25:38.970 --> 01:25:46.670
you just played yourself. Congratulations. Like, you just lost your money, or you took a haircut, whatever, 40%, thirty %, whatever the fraction is.

1241
01:25:47.370 --> 01:25:47.870
But

1242
01:25:48.975 --> 01:25:53.935
does I don't think the Bitcoin market responds downward in that situation. If BlackRock is short

1243
01:25:55.215 --> 01:25:56.355
It's a small margin.

1244
01:25:58.735 --> 01:26:11.070
They would have to they would have to try and source it in the open market. And and and also, like, a bunch of people that thought they had Bitcoin but were holding BlackRock realized they don't have Bitcoin. They might individually try and source

1245
01:26:11.850 --> 01:26:18.635
to try and make themselves whole and have the Bitcoin they thought they did. So, actually, in that situation, we'd probably

1246
01:26:19.094 --> 01:26:22.395
there might be a moment of panic, but we'd probably go up in that situation.

1247
01:26:23.014 --> 01:26:25.355
So you, humble self custody holder,

1248
01:26:27.094 --> 01:26:30.715
aren't like, you're in a better sit like, you're pretty much unfazed.

1249
01:26:31.790 --> 01:26:34.210
If anything, it might be a benefit. That's that's providing

1250
01:26:34.830 --> 01:26:36.130
the fraud gets

1251
01:26:36.670 --> 01:26:41.010
called out and and discovered. You know? As you're having these pay these paper

1252
01:26:41.470 --> 01:26:42.770
Bitcoin on the market,

1253
01:26:43.230 --> 01:26:43.730
it's,

1254
01:26:44.835 --> 01:26:56.135
you know, it it's suppressing the price. There's more fake supply going on and sort of pushes that sort of supply crunch moment that those suddenly moments kicks them down the road.

1255
01:26:56.850 --> 01:26:59.190
But when discovered, Matt Right.

1256
01:27:00.130 --> 01:27:03.030
These events become very, very violent

1257
01:27:04.130 --> 01:27:06.630
as the price signals correct themselves, as,

1258
01:27:07.010 --> 01:27:10.230
the price correct itself compared to the supply that

1259
01:27:10.744 --> 01:27:11.324
there actually is

1260
01:27:11.625 --> 01:27:13.324
compared to what we thought there was.

1261
01:27:14.264 --> 01:27:15.965
It's gonna make for some explosive

1262
01:27:17.224 --> 01:27:19.885
times, and it's for some explosive swings.

1263
01:27:20.264 --> 01:27:22.844
And we could at least have some solace in the fact that

1264
01:27:23.625 --> 01:27:25.324
they will almost certainly happen,

1265
01:27:26.250 --> 01:27:29.869
and they will make for some great times for us as holders,

1266
01:27:30.809 --> 01:27:35.150
and just in terms of headlines. Now the problem we have to worry about is

1267
01:27:36.170 --> 01:27:40.110
if that causes government to step in and intervene and be like, okay.

1268
01:27:41.195 --> 01:27:45.295
We gotta get Michael Sailor his Bitcoin back. We're gonna do a hard fork.

1269
01:27:48.235 --> 01:27:52.175
Right now, I think we'd survive that pretty easily. We'd be like, no. Fuck you.

1270
01:27:53.630 --> 01:27:57.490
But if the government becomes more entrenched in Bitcoin, they're using it for,

1271
01:27:58.190 --> 01:28:00.210
you know, all these retirement funds,

1272
01:28:00.910 --> 01:28:09.344
backing it as a reserve asset, like, to a crazy extent, like, then we're gonna have some real battles on our hands. We gotta be ready to go to war

1273
01:28:09.965 --> 01:28:10.465
because,

1274
01:28:12.284 --> 01:28:12.864
you know,

1275
01:28:13.244 --> 01:28:15.025
we're just gonna have bailouts again.

1276
01:28:17.885 --> 01:28:24.560
Yeah. I mean but that would be the first the first instinct would be a bailout, not a hostile hard fork. It would be

1277
01:28:25.100 --> 01:28:27.200
print money, buy Bitcoin on the open market.

1278
01:28:28.780 --> 01:28:33.600
Yeah. I mean, just just because just because these these bankers and the politicians,

1279
01:28:36.025 --> 01:28:39.565
everything's a nail and the hammer is the printing press. Right?

1280
01:28:40.345 --> 01:28:43.325
It's just the easiest Yeah. Weapon to deploy.

1281
01:28:44.265 --> 01:28:44.765
So

1282
01:28:45.945 --> 01:28:49.485
Way easier to print money and do a bailout than

1283
01:28:50.100 --> 01:28:53.080
hard has filed for the mailing class and show up at BitDevs.

1284
01:28:56.340 --> 01:28:58.040
I mean, I don't know what,

1285
01:28:58.420 --> 01:29:03.639
yeah, I mean, I don't know what situation we'd have to be in for, like, there to be support. I

1286
01:29:04.045 --> 01:29:06.864
I still think we're probably pretty far away from

1287
01:29:07.965 --> 01:29:09.264
a hard fork because

1288
01:29:11.324 --> 01:29:21.410
MSTR mismanaged their keys. They would have to be, like, a vast amount of the populace retiring, lost their retirement funds, and you had uprisings and stuff. You'd have to get really, really

1289
01:29:22.770 --> 01:29:24.390
Yeah. But none of those people

1290
01:29:26.130 --> 01:29:29.030
hold Bitcoin or run notes or anything.

1291
01:29:29.810 --> 01:29:31.989
They all have a CR. That's the whole point.

1292
01:29:35.415 --> 01:29:41.755
So they kinda I mean, they kinda played themselves in that situation. They're gonna want that anyway. No one can comprehend what happens. One way or the other.

1293
01:29:42.695 --> 01:29:46.215
Yeah. It could it'll be interesting. No matter how you cut it, it's gonna

1294
01:29:46.920 --> 01:29:50.140
I think the most interesting times are still ahead of us. That's for sure.

1295
01:29:51.800 --> 01:29:57.740
We'll see. I mean, once the US dollar is issued on Taproot assets and everyone's using it, then

1296
01:30:01.085 --> 01:30:09.025
Well, I'm glad you brought it back to that. So, I mean, this is my original question. You just went all in on, like, post ETF and this and

1297
01:30:09.485 --> 01:30:12.864
what we're playing with fire. What what is your opinion

1298
01:30:14.000 --> 01:30:15.460
on USD tokens

1299
01:30:15.840 --> 01:30:16.500
on Lightning,

1300
01:30:17.360 --> 01:30:17.860
and

1301
01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:26.420
are you thinking about implementing them in Zeus? Is there actually demand for it? How do you think about that? I think in the world, there is demand for

1302
01:30:27.425 --> 01:30:39.045
stable coins. I don't think there's necessarily demand for that among Zeus users per se, but, you know, being combo, we don't have a crazy amount. We have tens of thousands of users. We don't have hundreds of thousands or millions of users.

1303
01:30:41.505 --> 01:30:42.245
I think

1304
01:30:43.320 --> 01:30:43.820
that,

1305
01:30:44.280 --> 01:30:46.380
of course, we should be skeptical

1306
01:30:48.360 --> 01:30:48.860
of

1307
01:30:49.560 --> 01:30:50.940
embracing these assets.

1308
01:30:51.480 --> 01:30:52.620
But if we have,

1309
01:30:53.640 --> 01:30:55.420
a, the opportunity to

1310
01:30:56.375 --> 01:30:57.275
make it easier

1311
01:30:58.375 --> 01:30:59.114
to liquidate

1312
01:30:59.735 --> 01:31:01.435
US dollars directly to Bitcoin,

1313
01:31:01.975 --> 01:31:04.875
we should embrace that where we can. And, b,

1314
01:31:06.135 --> 01:31:08.875
the opportunities that we have to Bitcoinize

1315
01:31:10.020 --> 01:31:10.760
and eCashize

1316
01:31:11.380 --> 01:31:12.760
the dollar, meaning

1317
01:31:13.139 --> 01:31:15.719
it has the fantastic privacy properties

1318
01:31:16.980 --> 01:31:21.800
that this technology affords us and doesn't take us down the dystopian CBDC

1319
01:31:23.265 --> 01:31:23.765
future

1320
01:31:24.945 --> 01:31:32.485
that could very well happen. I don't care how many times the sitting president says we're not implementing it. That could change like that with the next administration.

1321
01:31:34.545 --> 01:31:39.710
I I think we'd be remiss not to jump on those opportunities. I think there's a bit of an inevitability

1322
01:31:40.810 --> 01:31:43.470
when technology is just so overwhelmingly,

1323
01:31:45.050 --> 01:31:46.510
better in a lot of ways.

1324
01:31:47.370 --> 01:31:49.630
That being said, it's not gonna be so straightforward

1325
01:31:50.090 --> 01:31:51.710
when the powers that be

1326
01:31:52.505 --> 01:31:55.085
understand the value of having that level of control,

1327
01:31:56.265 --> 01:31:58.285
that privacy invasion, that surveillance.

1328
01:31:59.305 --> 01:32:00.125
It's really

1329
01:32:01.225 --> 01:32:12.100
going to be difficult, but we we need to recognize too is that there's not just one entity in the state. Yes. It operates like that, but there are many different factions that stand to benefit in many different ways.

1330
01:32:12.560 --> 01:32:22.005
And the administration we have now is gonna look different from the one that follows this, and these views are gonna evolve as the technology evolves and as the market

1331
01:32:22.385 --> 01:32:23.925
embraces it more and more.

1332
01:32:25.985 --> 01:32:27.845
So, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't expect,

1333
01:32:28.865 --> 01:32:33.285
shit coins in Zeus. I mean, but, you know, the one we just added right now.

1334
01:32:35.920 --> 01:32:37.219
But I do expect

1335
01:32:38.320 --> 01:32:39.619
the dollar to

1336
01:32:41.039 --> 01:32:41.539
continue

1337
01:32:41.920 --> 01:32:42.420
to

1338
01:32:43.760 --> 01:32:46.980
lean towards those stable coins to become more and more digital,

1339
01:32:47.519 --> 01:32:53.585
and we can only hope that it's in a way that we can easily to Bitcoin and that it has good privacy properties.

1340
01:32:54.125 --> 01:32:57.505
That's not this dystopian nightmare. So we'll see.

1341
01:32:57.805 --> 01:33:01.585
Some developments I'm seeing are good. Some are really bad.

1342
01:33:03.630 --> 01:33:04.130
It's

1343
01:33:05.070 --> 01:33:16.449
it's really gonna be an interesting battle that takes place for the the next couple of decades, I think, before we before that new Bretton Woods moment really happens. There's a lot of things that could happen in between

1344
01:33:16.975 --> 01:33:18.255
when things really start to break down

1345
01:33:20.335 --> 01:33:21.315
currency reset.

1346
01:33:23.535 --> 01:33:26.195
It's crazy to be at the forefront of it and

1347
01:33:26.574 --> 01:33:28.035
and seeing it firsthand.

1348
01:33:28.655 --> 01:33:29.235
You know?

1349
01:33:36.450 --> 01:33:44.595
I could tell you're becoming an experienced CEO because it was, like, the most long winded non answer about adding Oh, no. Tell us about coming to the shoes. Come on.

1350
01:33:48.915 --> 01:33:52.455
Even even as a taproot asset? No. No. I don't think so.

1351
01:33:53.075 --> 01:33:56.135
I think our mission is to spread Bitcoin to the world.

1352
01:33:56.595 --> 01:33:57.735
I think that

1353
01:33:58.330 --> 01:33:59.790
we'd stand to benefit

1354
01:34:00.330 --> 01:34:01.070
if Tether

1355
01:34:01.530 --> 01:34:02.830
is issued on Lightning

1356
01:34:03.929 --> 01:34:10.750
and is used. I think we'd see a great amount of benefit from the increased volumes on Lightning. We would benefit from that.

1357
01:34:11.175 --> 01:34:11.994
But we

1358
01:34:12.295 --> 01:34:13.915
are just really focused on

1359
01:34:14.934 --> 01:34:15.755
spreading Bitcoin.

1360
01:34:17.094 --> 01:34:19.114
And, hopefully, people who are liquidating

1361
01:34:19.415 --> 01:34:19.915
that

1362
01:34:20.375 --> 01:34:23.034
tether, that USDT in getting on to Bitcoin

1363
01:34:23.335 --> 01:34:25.755
eventually find their way in Zeus.

1364
01:34:28.909 --> 01:34:31.230
Love it. Well, sir, you are crushing it.

1365
01:34:31.949 --> 01:34:37.489
We are all very I think I can speak for everyone that we're very grateful to have you building on Bitcoin. I don't know.

1366
01:34:38.270 --> 01:34:42.105
My life would be much more difficult without Zeus than without your work, so thank you.

1367
01:34:43.785 --> 01:34:46.925
What do you think about coming back on when you release 1%.

1368
01:34:47.785 --> 01:34:49.005
Absolutely. 13?

1369
01:34:49.705 --> 01:34:51.885
Episode 13. Yeah. Let's do it.

1370
01:34:52.665 --> 01:34:53.165
Awesome.

1371
01:34:54.505 --> 01:34:57.960
Good chat, sir. Do you have any final thoughts for our freaks before we,

1372
01:34:58.660 --> 01:35:07.720
wrap here? Let's see. Check out the Zeus o point 11 alpha. We need as many people testing it as possible. Let's get those bugs ironed out.

1373
01:35:08.340 --> 01:35:12.120
We're gonna be hooking up a lot of people with some of the Zeus Pay plus features,

1374
01:35:13.575 --> 01:35:15.115
so they could test things out.

1375
01:35:15.655 --> 01:35:17.675
A lot of the perks there are gonna be developing,

1376
01:35:18.135 --> 01:35:24.475
but consider checking them out and subscribing once it's all deployed so you could support us and enjoy those great perks.

1377
01:35:25.050 --> 01:35:30.750
Look out for swaps coming soon. They're not in the current alpha, but they'll be dropping in the next week or two.

1378
01:35:31.530 --> 01:35:32.010
And,

1379
01:35:32.409 --> 01:35:33.230
yeah, just

1380
01:35:33.610 --> 01:35:39.710
give us as much feedback as possible. We're always listening. We're trying to see how people are using Zeus,

1381
01:35:40.185 --> 01:35:41.645
try to fill in the gaps.

1382
01:35:42.505 --> 01:35:44.525
We've been laying down all these stones,

1383
01:35:45.304 --> 01:35:50.925
laying down this path to where we wanna go and making self custodial Bitcoin the best experience it can be

1384
01:35:51.385 --> 01:35:55.804
and onboarding as many people as possible to making Bitcoin payments

1385
01:35:56.130 --> 01:35:57.270
widespread reality,

1386
01:35:58.690 --> 01:36:07.190
and that's not gonna happen without the help of a whole lot of people. So we're just try playing trying to play our part where we can.

1387
01:36:09.715 --> 01:36:10.215
Wonderful.

1388
01:36:11.075 --> 01:36:18.455
Freaks, search Zeus in your favorite app store. Press that download button. Check it out. Play around with it. Give your feedback to Evan.

1389
01:36:19.075 --> 01:36:23.175
He loves all your feedback, especially if you just tag him on Take him on him on Oscar.

1390
01:36:23.960 --> 01:36:26.139
Hit him with a GIF. No. Honestly, probably.

1391
01:36:26.600 --> 01:36:29.659
Yeah. Hit him with one of those. All caps. Two minutes.

1392
01:36:31.320 --> 01:36:33.960
Be nice, guys. Come on. Evan, thank you. Thank

1393
01:36:35.320 --> 01:36:36.540
No. I can take it.

1394
01:36:37.239 --> 01:36:38.199
Thank thank you for

1395
01:36:39.855 --> 01:36:42.195
It was a good chat, sir. It was a good chat.

1396
01:36:42.575 --> 01:36:46.835
Thank you for joining us. Freaks, thank you for supporting the show. Thank you for listening.

1397
01:36:47.614 --> 01:36:49.155
Share with your friends and family.

1398
01:36:49.535 --> 01:36:52.275
All the relevant links are still dispatch.com.

1399
01:36:53.010 --> 01:36:55.269
It's available in all podcast apps,

1400
01:36:55.570 --> 01:36:56.070
YouTube,

1401
01:36:56.530 --> 01:36:58.070
Nostr, download primal.

1402
01:36:58.769 --> 01:36:59.829
Join us on Nostr,

1403
01:37:00.849 --> 01:37:01.349
Zapsats.

1404
01:37:02.289 --> 01:37:04.869
We have NVK coming next week.

1405
01:37:06.045 --> 01:37:19.585
That's gonna be Tuesday, the twenty ninth. I think I might have said Wednesday earlier. I was just fucking up my days again, but it's Tuesday, the twenty ninth. Same time, twenty one hundred UTC, if you wanna join us in the live chat. Otherwise, we'll be posting podcast apps afterwards.

1406
01:37:21.450 --> 01:37:25.310
Lito zapped 10,000 sats in the Zap stream. Thank you, Lito.

1407
01:37:26.090 --> 01:37:30.270
A couple more shout outs shouts to BTC pins, my awesome Zeus tumbler.

1408
01:37:32.810 --> 01:37:37.784
Dude, BTC pins is best in class. What's his website? Is it BGCpins.com?

1409
01:37:38.085 --> 01:37:41.445
Unbelievable. We've done, like, three pins with him. They're all quality.

1410
01:37:42.244 --> 01:37:45.145
I got a shout out to Canuto. He made this awesome

1411
01:37:45.844 --> 01:37:46.344
Cashew

1412
01:37:46.645 --> 01:37:48.105
Zeus dog tag.

1413
01:37:48.485 --> 01:37:49.705
It looks pretty crazy.

1414
01:37:50.580 --> 01:37:57.400
Baller. And, yeah, just chows to everyone who supports us and allows us to do what we love and

1415
01:37:57.700 --> 01:37:59.480
help spread Bitcoin to the masses.

1416
01:38:00.260 --> 01:38:06.785
It's not just that shiny rock that you stash under your mattress. Let's make it something that people can use

1417
01:38:07.165 --> 01:38:08.465
every day for payments

1418
01:38:08.925 --> 01:38:10.145
all across the world.

1419
01:38:12.605 --> 01:38:13.505
Damn right.

1420
01:38:13.885 --> 01:38:14.720
Love you all.