CMCL Interview: Andrea Dalzell, The Seated Nurse

00:00.80
Julie
Welcome to the Changing Minds and Changing Lives podcast. My name is Julie Sowash I'm the executive director and co-founder of disability solutions. Um, and as this is a pretty new podcast I want to just to welcome everyone thanks for taking some time to listen and you know like just. A little bit about me I am a person who lives with multiple disabilities. They are all hidden disabilities. So unless I tell someone about them. They're unaware. Um, and that's part of my story and part of my journey and what we're going to do on this podcast is talk with. Companies that work with disability solutions. My friends influencers and advocates. Um, and for the disability community about the intricacies the challenges celebrate the wins in disability employment and breakdown and examine workplace trends government policy. Biases and so much more in an honest nobious very human way. Um and change the minds and changed them lives about true disability inclusion. Get some more people to work in our community. We're gonna have some amazing guests. 1 today is going to join us in just a minute. Um, we're also going to have fraz berth out who's going to join us to talk about the importance of inclusion in clinical trials and the work that he and I embarked on over the last um year and a half on better inclusion for people with disabilities in clinical trials.

01:28.57
Julie
Jamie Shields is going to join us very soon founder of the disabled society and so many more However, today we are talking to Andrea Del Zell Rn Msn founder and Ceo of the seated position. Ah, 2021 New Mobility Magazine person of the year the first recipient of the Craig H Nelson Visionary prize a New York city Marathon Finisher and so much more Andrea welcome to changing minds and changing lives.

02:02.11
Andrea
Thank you so much for having me oh my goodness every time someone says New York City marathon finisher of my guess I actually did that.

02:13.20
Julie
I was stocking your Instagram today. Um, and I saw that full disclosure I Twenty Twenty ran half a marathon and stopped running again until like literally last month and so when I saw that like oh man like so.

02:20.40
Andrea
Um, if it.

02:29.49
Julie
Impressed and jealous and in all all at the same time. So thank you so much. Yes, it's so nice to have you here so tell us tell tell our listeners a little bit more about you not just the work stuff but the like the Twitter bio. What.

02:29.77
Andrea
Um.

02:33.81
Andrea
Um, if if yes, so.

02:45.56
Julie
What so makes Andre a tick other than marathons.

02:49.30
Andrea
Ah, the advocacy disability rights knowing that I have gone through the ringer being a person who has a very visible disability I use a wheelchair having a spinal cord injury growing up in the concrete jungle that is New York City and navigating a world trying to accomplish what everyone says is impossible and just just for the just for the the chip to say that I did it right? I think that that's typical new yorker. To say that we did it? yeah.

03:27.35
Julie
Ah I think it's a lot more than you just did it Now. You're you're doing such amazing work and you know I think that there's such a beautiful thing about taking your personal story and using it not just for your own. Good and your ownship but what we're staying with the work that you're doing on the seat of position in your writing and your advocacy to help employers understand the value of nurses with disabilities the value of humans um with disabilities and. And you know so I want to start off kind of one of the things that drew us to um, engage with you and have you on this podcast was sort of your employment Journey. Um, even though it's you've got a ton a ton of amazing experience and and kudos under your belt. You're. Pretty new. Um, new grad. You graduated from nursing school in 2018 and so kind of tell me about what the finding a job after you graduated process was like for you.

04:20.90
Andrea
Um, yeah.

04:23.75
Andrea
Um, yeah.

04:34.30
Andrea
Well I'm going to backtrack just just a hadbit like anyone who knows my nursing educational part where I'm like getting into nursing school was already a plight. No one knew if I can do it. It was a question if I can get into clinicals.

04:38.90
Julie
Um, okay.

04:52.53
Andrea
And then every semester there on fourth was always and I don't know because it's new territory. You're charting if I'm the first for New York state in that particular situation for that program I'm navigating new territory. So every semester is new territory to navigate if I know or don't know. So yes I make it through this educational part because I've navigated I figured it out from a student level how to be able to navigate clinicals. What nursing I want to be able to do no one ever asked me during that point in time to be able to guide me afterward right.

05:13.59
Julie
And.

05:26.37
Julie
Do you feel like that was something that was they didn't ask you because it was that you had a disability or because that's not a part of nursing education. Give me a little insight.

05:33.50
Andrea
Well. So. It's not a part of nursing Education. What nursing education is is to get you to pass your nursing boards and your nursing boards is to be able to get you to get into a hospital setting. It's bedside direct Care Acute care. But the nursing profession right now as we know has grown.

05:50.16
Julie
Okay.

05:56.78
Andrea
Tremendously We are in every part of integration that there could be and innovation. So it's no longer just thinking about the hospital and a patient at the bedside. It's now thinking about your your health care manager or your insurance coordinator. It's thinking about the person who's.

06:01.47
Julie
Hence.

06:14.57
Andrea
The pharmacy coordinating your meds. It's thinking about the person who's coordinating your care at home where your child at a school. There's so many different aspects to nursing that we forget so educational part is just to think about your average nurse leaving school and going to a hospital setting and taking care of acute care of patients.

06:32.27
Julie
Okay.

06:34.39
Andrea
And that's not just nursing anymore. We've we've expanded so now thinking about someone coming with a disability I've navigated this space of education which would be leading to clinical which is hospital setting.

06:37.57
Julie
Yeah.

06:46.95
Julie
And.

06:50.85
Andrea
Not saying that I didn't want that I very much wanted it because my goal was to become and a nurse a nurse ah anesthesiologist nursing anesthesis. That's what I want to be I was like I'm going to go into Icu and then I'm going to go in the or and this is what I want to do.

06:59.70
Julie
You're here.

07:06.11
Andrea
Not knowing how I would navigate that space just waiting to pass my boards and then get into employment nursing you said how many positions are open right now.

07:09.79
Julie
Okay.

07:17.27
Julie
Yeah, so I looked this morning before we before we chatted but there are 350000 open nursing jobs on our career center. Um at disability solutions and I mean 350000

07:30.86
Andrea
Thousand. Okay, so that that's pretty good job market for nurses right? and and with your when you pass your boards. It's national. You can go any any state in America and find a nursing job because that's that's you just apply for your license you get it transferred. You can get a job.

07:34.17
Julie
That's amazing.

07:43.80
Julie
Okay. Okay.

07:50.60
Andrea
So I'm coming out of school and all of my friends are getting jobs. All of my peers are instantly getting jobs and here I am going to job after job Interview Job Interview job interview because here it is the market is open. It is Lush for us and I'm getting rejected. I'm going into the hospitals and i'm'm getting rejected automatically not by face-to-face saying oh we can't hire you because who's going to do that. Nobody's going to openly discriminate but Bias plays a part in how you interview.. Regardless if you acknowledge it or not so me automatically rolling into a hospital setting.

08:22.44
Julie
Um.

08:27.93
Andrea
We're in hospitals rolling in or rolling onto or being on something that rolls automatically equals disabled and unworking here I am being a functional disabled person rolling into your office asking for employment in a job that requires you to be hands on.

08:36.20
Julie
Um.

08:46.84
Andrea
Those 2 don't agree in anyone's brain because there's no representation of that in physical world. We're not seeing it so therefore I'm sorry so therefore when I'm sitting through these interviews I'm trying to make these.

08:47.21
Julie
Right. And I I think oh sorry, go ahead? yes.

09:03.29
Andrea
1 on 1 connections to be able to say I did this in clinical practice in my nursing education I've gotten through this I've been able to navigate this. There's no connection there because all they're seeing is this disability that might hinder my ability to do something.

09:19.58
Julie
So I'm curious as to how much more at least in my perception. Um, the bias would exist within the healthcare setting because of the way Medicine approaches disability.

09:34.58
Andrea
Setting.

09:36.57
Julie
Um, and and quality of life and all of those things we saw so much of that Just gross dirty laundry get aired during Covid I think the the world learned a lot. Um, but when you're sitting there with a potential boss a potential peer.

09:47.15
Andrea
Um, yeah.

09:55.70
Julie
Um, in the Healthcare setting is that is your disability even more stigmatized because of of the education that you received or or that the Healthcare industry receives.

10:05.34
Andrea
Well, of course because we we have stories now where during covid or during that that time of transition where covid wasn't at its peak but we were still hiring online and no longer bringing people into our facilities to do one-on-one hiring look at the job spike in disability employment. Everybody was getting hired including nurses with disabilities and I can speak to this because if anybody goes online and she'd love me for for for tagging her um Ryan Mason who is a nurse she was an rn in the Ed who.

10:24.89
Julie
Um.

10:38.40
Andrea
Has a disability and was able to get hired into a mother baby unit when before she was getting rejected from a clinical practice. So and it's the same thing for me I didn't get hired into clinical practice until covid hit New York at its peak and hospitals were just scrambing.

10:43.75
Julie
Yeah.

10:56.37
Andrea
Scrambling to have anybody with nursing education in their facilities to be able to help because the Governor put out the call it said please for retired nurses to come out of retirement we needed. We needed the help and that's when that's when hospitals were putting out their literal hr numbers asking them.

10:59.61
Julie
Really yeah, that's incredible.

11:15.39
Andrea
Send your resumes send your credentials and we would have you onboard it in less than 24 hours hi Andrea has made it in I have got into the world and and think about it I have a disability I shouldn't even be running into covid I should be thinking about.

11:19.19
Julie
And so that that's how you got your first gig Holy cow.

11:34.99
Andrea
Me and making sure that I'm protected and here I am saying well I also need a job I also have student loans to pay I also have to figure this out because if I don't then where do I fall into the statistical sense of life.

11:43.70
Julie
Next? um.

11:51.49
Julie
Yeah, and and every yeah and every minute you don't have a job is another minute that it makes it harder to get that first job so you took the job at Peak covid in one of the the New York hospitals or healthcare settings. Um.

11:52.50
Andrea
So there's that push and motivation right.

12:01.53
Andrea
Yes.

12:08.32
Julie
And and tell me then how to be just it's such an unusual situation because um, everything was a hot mess and so where you just kind of run into it and it was almost less of ah an issue. That you had a disability because everything was chaos or did you still hit a lot of those same kind of usual barriers.

12:31.97
Andrea
I hit all the usual barriers as if I were the tasmanian double just going around in circles and I can do not um and and this is no fault to anyone because once again representation isn't there so you know there is this very. Small expectation that someone with a physical disabilities actually giving giving like they're actually being able to produce because there's no representation to pull from even though there's so many of us doing it and I get that. But the bias is thick so even on my first night on the unit I get asked have I ever worked on a unit before and and let's just take a step back for one moment I said I have a disability I didn't say what age I had it since I was 5 I stopped walking when I was 12 if anyone goes and everyone does goes through puberty you know how hard that is to go through when you're in junior high school middle school whichever it is are these are when you learn your social skills. How vocal? you're going to be how much you're able to commit to society is going to be based on on these fraction of years and this is when I was a rebel so fast forward now and here I am in this setting where I'm like not only have I been a patient for my entire life. So I understand the chaos of what is happening here because it is the chaos of what my life has been previously just as a patient.

13:56.80
Andrea
But yes I've gotten through nursing school I've proven that I can be a clinical standard and my outside knowledge event and how to how to do trait care actually helps a lot of nurses that have been in the field that are not vent nurses or treat nurses and here I am as a new grad with Knowledge. So You can actually utilize me where you need me So As soon as they knew that they threw me into the Icu so has made right? a better peer a better nurse someone That's all about.

14:19.42
Julie
Oh Wow. So what you're saying is your lived experience has made you a better nurse and a better peer.

14:33.50
Andrea
Able to understand the chaos because I've lived it on the inside world and that's something that a lot of people can't speak of let's think about those that have gone through some major medical issues in their life where they've been in and out of hospitals for some time they understand the lingo because they start to to. Hear what's happening around them all the time now I've done that my entire life from 5 years old and here I am graduating from nursing school in 2018 I'm already in my thirty s and I have understood the medical world and a level where most nurses have never.

14:55.26
Julie
Right.

15:08.23
Julie
Right? Yeah, It's almost like you're coming home because you're so comfortable in that setting whereas everyone else has the sort of newbie worries and fears and and lack of confidence. That's I mean I think that's a really good point. Um, is you know. Whether it's disability or any type of diversity is that we see such so much impact on patient experiences on customer experiences. Whatever they are when someone who has lived in your shoes um is able to also serve or care for you. Um, in a way that that. No one else that I couldn't understand that that someone else who does not use a wheelchair wouldn't understand.

15:47.34
Andrea
My and then let's let's step away from the personal for just a second every single business I believe that employs over 50 people has to put on that they're an equal opportunity employer and they do not discriminate based on sex race gender. Ah.

15:50.54
Julie
Um, yeah.

15:59.50
Julie
Yep.

16:05.26
Andrea
Disability so on and so forth what does that statement actually mean we can't just be performative by putting it on because it's a federal law. But if someone if if I really wanted to all of those interviews I went through 76 interviews to land a clinical placement job at the the peak of covid.

16:12.64
Julie
Yep.

16:22.97
Andrea
If I wanted to even the ones that I had recorded because New York is a single record state I do not need to let somebody else know and I had to record some of my interviews because I thought that I was doing something wrong I thought that it was me I thought that what I was saying. Or how I was conveying. Things was probably turning off nurse managers. So I recorded myself in an interview so that I can have a coach tell me if I was doing something wrong, right? and and just trying to take that that responsibility on me.

16:53.58
Julie
And.

16:55.96
Andrea
When I could have actually just said you know what you're discriminating against me and you're literally saying that I'm not capable because of the fact that I can't walk. You asked me how would I be able to do Cpr and this is a question that's raised in the nursing community in general.

17:00.23
Julie
Yep.

17:14.48
Andrea
How are you able to do cpr from the seated position. How could you run to do a code. How could you push a gurney down down a hall. Well I asked that for a nurse who broke her wrist I asked that for a nurse who may be having a hypertenive issues or someone who's diabetic who's not. Under control but can work a unit Still, you don't know those invisible disabilities. What if someone has severe anxiety and you don't know when that anxiety is triggered but you're questioning my disability because it's visible.

17:44.40
Julie
Yeah, because you can see it? Yep yeah I mean a hundred percent so so you got the job. Go ahead.

17:50.52
Andrea
And that doesn't exclude them either I'm sorry it doesn't exclude them for questioning someone's invisible in disability that's been forthcoming. You know it's just they get to do it for me right? off of the bat. So I can't even get my foot in the door.

17:59.53
Julie
Oh yeah, yeah, there's a lot of assumptions that go along with it right? I mean when I first started disclosing my mental Illness. You could see everybody's face going like she's either faking it or she might kill us. Like there was that wide range of of assumptions that happen and fortunately I'm in a place where I get a different I have the ability to tell that story and and you are there now but it took that time it took that person who finally in the midst of Covid said yep we need.

18:21.74
Andrea
Different.

18:38.87
Julie
Get this woman on the floor and get her to work because we need bodies. Um, you know and sort of my expertise. My background is really in the systems and the processes that um, that create inequity.

18:40.43
Andrea
And very please.

18:54.87
Julie
Around the hiring process and and all of those things and I just find it um, interesting and and remarkable that you took the time to say you know maybe this is me maybe I need to get an interview coach. Maybe I need to make sure and as like. Talent acquisition people recruitment people. Hr people I think a lot of times we lose the human side of what we do. Um and so you know stories like yours. Um, and your willingness to share the personal side and the professional side um help remind people in ta that we're not just pushing Buttons. We're not just. You know making workflow decisions like we are Changing. People's lives when they get that job. Ah, especially people who are going to have um extra barriers to employment like people with Disabilities. So I I Thank you for for sharing that and you know I guess I would be curious just.

19:33.58
Andrea
Yes, yeah, no.

19:49.71
Julie
You know what? what would be some of your advice to a new grad or even ah, an experienced nurse with a disability who is looking for that next part of their career arc um you know what are some of the lessons that you Learn. Mistakes best practice into actually sort of finally getting into a role.

20:12.65
Andrea
For there's these are 2 different very different questions. So let's separate them. Um for the new grad. My advice is ah, don't let anyone gaslight you into thinking that you don't belong.

20:16.80
Julie
I tend to do that. Um.

20:29.71
Andrea
You very much have gone through this you have very much proven yourself. You've passed your boards you were here you belong period. Don't let anyone tell you what direction you should be in or where is best or easy for you. You already know the answer to that you went through your clinicals. So. Find a home start. Small. You don't have to start big and and find people that you can work around even if that means reaching out on Facebook or Linkedin first we're out there like they're more than willing nurses always wanting to hire you just have to think smaller rather than bigger sometimes. So that's to the new grad. Ah, and then to the person who has a disability in nursing who's probably been my veteran nurse who's probably the new nurse that something has happened. They've been injured on the job. They don't know what's going on life is changing the best thing about having. And behind our name is the fact that we can go anywhere and do anything and you have to believe that ah I'm sorry that you you are having a career shift but maybe this is beneficial and I think that we owe it to the profession and we owe it to ourselves to show people that.

21:44.86
Andrea
It's not just about being bedside care nurses anymore that our care extends beyond what people can think and imagine right now and the fact that the internet is so connected. Ah, it gives you some leeway.

21:57.80
Julie
Are.

22:01.53
Andrea
And stop thinking so in the box.

22:04.12
Julie
Yeah I love that I mean you you gave me something completely different to think about earlier when you said like we know we aren't just bedside care nurses anymore. The world is huge. The world is is there are so many more opportunities than than what existed before. Um.

22:15.97
Andrea
Yeah.

22:19.44
Julie
And and before we kind of go to our closing questions I had 1 more question I wanted to just ask you about Um, the notice of proposed rulemaking that came out I think three weeks ago um about the need for enforcement around access to accessible diagnostic equipment. And you know as as both a healthcare professional who needs to know how much someone weighs you know how to get a proper exam all of those things and and also as a patient um with a disability. A little bit about the importance of the federal government coming in to finally start looking at some equitable and accessible justice for health care for our community.

23:04.14
Andrea
I think it's about time at exp explicitsive I think it's about time I think you know the Ada was signed over thirty years ago in let's think about that. That's just 1990 and this is supposed to make sure that there's.

23:10.62
Julie
Um.

23:22.84
Andrea
Accessibility wherever there's federal dollars the fact that healthcare systems today and 2024 were in in February already of 2024 and we are now seeing the federal government say you know what we're going to enforce and make sure that there's accessible equipment. Let's not just think about someone who is unable to walk or unable to stand. Let's think about someone who may be overweight and we're and we're shaming them. They can't get into a ct scanner or an mri scanner. So now their diagnoses are pushed out longer. It's like when do we say enough is enough.

23:53.00
Julie
Then.

23:59.36
Andrea
And when do we as Healthcare Care providers hold ourselves accountable for making sure that these things actually happen. So now that the federal government's stepping in and saying you know what? our federal dollars are supposed to be allocated to this. Let's make sure that this is actually happening yes that that makes sense to me. Finally, it makes sense but let's just make sure that it can actually pass and let's make sure that that enforcement actually goes through and that we're actually holding these these industries accountable and I know that ah Industries don't necessarily want to hear that I become the bad guy when I say that but let's also be real when you. Allow for these doors to open and you're not just closing off to this small community Anymore. You're opening the door for more and more people to utilize their services because now you're becoming exclusive to their care inclusive to their care. Sorry and you're becoming inclusive to their care.

24:46.56
Julie
Yes, yes.

24:51.37
Andrea
So I mean that just to me makes sense. You're spending money right now to make money in the in the long run because more and more people are going to be able to access these services. Yeah.

25:00.52
Julie
Yeah, it's a good business decision like yeah and I swear we'll probably be saying that until we let the next generation of advocates come on the floor for us. Um, but these are incredibly important strides and long overdue. But I'll take the wins we can get and we'll keep pushing. Um, so two last questions you are my first victim of my standard questions. So first question and only one this time is um, what is 1 thing that you would tell a hiring manager a people leader a health care administrator that.

25:22.36
Andrea
A.

25:37.97
Julie
Would change their minds about the talent value of people with disabilities in their workplace.

25:44.16
Andrea
Oh my gosh. Um, you say that you want people who are not lazy and want to work Disobe disabled people will be that person. They will not call out because they are so ashamed that the moment that they call out of work that you think that they're less or not worth it because of the fact that their disability played a part there I'm telling you they will think twice before calling out because they are so upset with themselves because of that internalized ableism. They want the job and I'm putting people out there right now because we do. We are shameful when we call out. We don't want to call out is a part of like this ingrained ableism so managers I'm telling you right now you talk about people with disabilities not like possibly not showing up or calling out too much.

26:26.23
Julie
I.

26:35.44
Andrea
They're the ones that are going to be thinking twice before they call out and they're probably going to be the most productive person on your team. Yeah.

26:42.40
Julie
I love that I love the super bluntness of it too. Don't beat around the Bush just say it second question. Um, what is 1 action or story or event that's happened in your life that helped change your life. Um, as a person with a disability.

27:00.50
Andrea
Ah, when I was in nursing school I didn't know if I was going to stay I was actually contemplating dropping out I was so bogged down by trying to prove that I can do it and I. Was helping a peer out. There was ah a patient at clinical practice that was giving nurses a hard time. She didn't want to get up. She didn't want to go Pt She had a she was newly diagnosed stroke so she was paralyzed on one side of her body and. My peer was just asking for help because we just need to get a report done so that we can hand it in to our professor. So All we're thinking about is getting things done. So I go into the office. So I go into the patient's room to help her and this patient looks at me roll into her room and starts sobbing crying. Like booing and I'm thinking something's wrong. At this point Maybe that's why she didn't want to get up get the nurse call our instructor and I just roll right up to the bed and I start putting on the blood pressure cof to at least get like some vitals and she looks at me and she says I thought my life was over.

28:04.81
Julie
So.

28:12.44
Andrea
I'll never forget the words and I said I don't know what you mean life is only over if you stay in this bed. You got to tell me what's wrong and she said she never saw a nurse in a chair. Basically so she thought life was over with her new diagnosis in that moment I knew what she meant in that moment.

28:24.92
Julie
With her new diagnoses.

28:31.47
Julie
So.

28:31.67
Andrea
But I didn't play into it but I felt in that moment that I was reassured that I was right where I was supposed to be in that I wasn't supposed to give up and here we are six years later I've been a nurse now six years and I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be okay.

28:46.34
Julie
So that is incredible. You changed her life and she changed your life at the same time and and put you on this mission that you're on today. That's amazing. So Andrea Del Zell how do we find you.

28:51.24
Andrea
Yeah, at the same time.

28:58.48
Andrea
Yes.

29:03.48
Julie
Have Twitter Linkedin Instagram give us the dets.

29:05.97
Andrea
Yeah, so I am known as the seated nurse and you can find me at that Hashtag at symbol on all of the platforms at theseded nurse or you can go on to atthe seatded nurse.com and find me there.

29:22.70
Julie
Great Andrea Dall thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for joining us on this episode of changing minds and changing lives subscribe follow us on Instagram tech talk all of the places and tell me who we should be talking to to change minds and change lives together. For true disability and inclusion until next time.