"THE MAN WHO KILLED JOHN LENNON: 45 YEARS OF DENIAL & THE PAROLE BOARD'S VERDICT - PART 2"

0:03 Caalaroga Shark Media. Good morning, I'm Reed Carter. Sunday, December seventh, twenty twenty five. Yesterday we covered the murder of John Lennon December eighth, nineteen eighty, Mark David Chapman waiting outside the Dakota the autograph, the hollow point bullets, the five shots, John Lennon dying on the floor of his own apartment building, cassette tapes scattered around him. Today what happened next? The trial that never was, the insanity defense that was never tested, And forty five years of Mark David Chapman sitting in a prison cell, denied parole fourteen times, while the world still mourns the man he killed. December ninth, nineteen eighty, the morning after the murder, Mark David Chapman was arraigned on charges of second degree murder in Manhattan Criminal Court.

0:58 He was represented by a quarter apoint of attorney Herbert Adlerberg. The arraignment lasted minutes. Chapman entered no plea. He was remanded to Bellevue Hospital for psychiatric evaluation, placed under suicide watch, the most hated man in America, locked in a padded room while doctors tried to determine if he was legally insane. Outside the Dakota, thousands gathered singing Lenin's songs, crying, holding candles, a spontaneous vigil that would last for days. On December fourteenth, Yoko Ono called for ten minutes of silence to honor John.

1:39 Millions around the world participated. Meanwhile, Chapman's attorney withdrew from the case. Too many death threats, too much hatred. No lawyer wanted to defend John Lennon's killer. Eventually, Jonathan Marx took the case, a criminal defense attorney willing to represent the unrepresentable, and Marx had a strategy in Sannnity. The psychiatric evaluations were damning paranoid schizophrenia, delusions of grandeur, the little people in his walls, the obsession with the catcher in the rye, the belief that he had become Holden Callfield, that killing Lenin was somehow saving the world from phoniness. Doctor Daniel Schwartz, director of forensic psychiatric services at King's County Hospital, diagnosed Chapman as a paranoid schizophrenic, said Chapman had literally become John Lennon in his own mind and killed the real Lenin because he was evil and a phony.

2:34 He killed the person who to him represented evil and hypocrisy. Schwartz testified he killed him physically, he killed himself psychologically. Another psychiatrist, doctor Dorothy Lewis, said Chapman told her he summoned devils from high places the night before the murder, that demons forced him to kill. The insanity defense looked promising. Chapman might never see the inside of a prison. Instead ed he'd be committed to a state mental hospital for treatment, may be released eventually if doctors determined he was no longer a threat. But Mark David Chapman had other plans. June twenty second, nineteen eighty one, the trial was about to begin. Jonathan Marx was ready to present his insanity defense.

3:20 Witnesses lined up, psychiatric experts prepared to testify. Then Chapman told his lawyer he wanted to plead guilty. Mark Subjected raised serious questions about Chapman's competence to make that decision, requested further psychiatric evaluation. Chapman was unmoved. He told Judge Dennis Edwards Junior that God had instructed him to plead guilty, that he would never change his plea, never appeal regardless of the sentence. The judge accepted the plea, declared Chapman competent, set sentencing for August twenty fourth. I'm reed, Carter. This is celebrity trials today. Mark David Chapman's guilty plea, the sentence, forty five years in prison, fourteen parole denials, and the question that haunts Yoko Ono every two years? Will the man who killed John Lennon ever walk free? Part two of two, June twenty second, nineteen eighty one. Manhattan State Supreme Court Judge Dennis Edwards Junior presiding. The courtroom was packed media from around the world. Security tight. Everyone expected the beginning of what would be one of the most sensational trials of the decade. Instead, they got six words from Mark David Chapman. I plead guilty, your honor. His attorney, Jonathan Marx, was blindsided. He'd spent months building an insanity defense expert witnesses psychiatric evaluations, a compelling case that Chapman

4:54 was a paranoid schizophrenic who didn't understand the wrongfulness of his actions. Chapman was throwing it all away. Mister Chapman has exercised his constitutional right to amend his plea. Judge Edwards announced he will plead guilty to the charge of murder in the second degree. Marx told the court he opposed the plea change, that he had serious questions about Chapman's mental state, that a man who believed God was giving him instructions might not be competent to make legal decisions. But Edwards disagreed, said Chapman had made the decision of his own free will, declared him competent to plead guilty. Why did Chapman do it? He gave different explanations over the years. Said God told him to, Said he wanted to spare yoko Ono the pain of a lengthy trial.

5:43 Said he didn't want to be seen as crazy. The truth probably all of the above, and something else. Control Mark David Chapman's entire life was about control. The little people in his walls who worshiped him, the Holden Caulfield fantasy, where he decided who was phony and who deserved to live, the murder itself, choosing who dies and when. A trial would have taken that control away. Lawyers arguing psychiatrists testifying a jury deciding his fate. Chapman would have been a passive observer in his own story. By pleading guilty, he controlled the narrative, made himself the author of his own ending.

6:25 Even in prison, he would be the one who chose to be there. Make it make sense. He murdered John Lennon for fame, then pleaded guilty to avoid a trial that would have kept him in the spotlight for months. The logic doesn't hold, but logic never applied to Mark David Chapman. August twenty fourth, nineteen eighty one, sentencing day. The courtroom was crowded again, cameras everywhere, the whole world watching. Two psychiatrists testified on Chapman's behalf. Doctor Daniel Schwartz repeated his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, said Chapman had become Lenin in his own mind and killed him because he was evil.

7:14 Doctor Dorothy Lewis described Chapman's claims about summoning devils, his delusions, his detachment from reality. Prosecutor Alan Sullivan presented evidence that Chapman had considered killing other celebrities before settling on Lenin. David Bowie, Johnny Carson, Elizabeth Taylor, Marlon Brando, Walter Cronkite, George C. Scott, Jacqueline Kennedy, O Nassis, even Ronald Reagan the only criterion fame Chapman wanted to kill someone famous. Lenin was the most accessible. Then Chapman was asked if he had anything to say. He stood, pale, pudgy, clutching a paperback copy of The Catcher in the Rye, and he read aloud from the novel, the passage about Holden Caulfield's fantasy of being the Catcher in the Rye, standing at the edge of a cliff, catching children before they fall into the corrupt adult world. The courtroom was silent.

8:12 Here was a murderer reading from the book that supposedly explained his crime, but it explained nothing, just the ramblings of a fictional teenager weaponized by a disturbed mind. Judge Edwards pronounced sentence twenty years to life, just five years less than the maximum of twenty five to life. The judge also ordered psychiatric treatment during incarceration, said he hoped doctors could figure out what made Chapman tick, understand the pathology prevent future tragedies. Chapman showed no emotion, was let out of the courtroom in handcuffs, transported to Attica Correctional Facility, the maximum security prison in upstate New York. His wife, Gloria, was not charged. She knew about his plans. He'd told her before his second trip to New York, but she thought he was joking, or crazy, or both. She didn't take it seriously, and by the time she realized he was serious, it was too late. They divorced. Eventually, Gloria returned to Hawaii tried to build a new life, but she'll always be the woman who was married to John Lennon's killer. Mark David Chapman entered Attica on August twenty fourth, nineteen eighty one. He would become eligible for parole on August twenty fourth, two thousand, nineteen years away, plenty of time to think about what he'd done, or so the world hoped. Attica Correctional Facility one of the most notorious

9:44 prisons in America, sight of the nineteen seventy one riot that left forty three people dead, maximum security home to murderers, rapists, and the worst criminals New York had to offer, and now home to Mark David Chapman. Prison officials immediately recognized the problem. Chapman wasn't just a murderer. He was the murderer, the man who killed John Lennon, a target for anyone who wanted to make a name for themselves. They put him in protective custody, solitary confinement, twenty three hours a day in a cell, one hour for exercise, minimal contact with other inmates. Chapman's first months were turbulent. In February nineteen eighty two, he went on a hunger strike, refused to eat for twenty six days. The New York State Supreme Court authorized force feeding. He was given liquid nutrients through a tube. Why the hunger strike, Chapman never fully explained.

10:43 Maybe he was seeking attention, Maybe he was trying to punish himself. Maybe he was just unstable, as the psychiatrists had said all along. He declined all interview requests for his first six years. Said he didn't want to give the impression he'd killed Lenin for fame, that he regretted the murder, that he was genuinely remorseful. But actions speak louder than words, and Chapman's actions suggested something else. Journalist James R. Gaines managed to interview him anyway, wrote an eighteen thousand words series for People magazine. Chapman later told the Parole Board he regretted that interview. In nineteen ninety two, Jack Jones of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle published let Me Take You Down Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman, based on audio taped interviews with Chapman over several years, a deep dive into his psychology, his delusions, his rationalizations.

11:41 Chapman cooperated with the book, then said he regretted it. A pattern was emerging. Do something for attention, then claim remorse. Repeat. Over the years, Chapman was transferred from Attica to various facilities, eventually landed at Greenhaven Correctional Facility in store Ormville, New York, about an hour north of Manhattan. He's been there ever since. In prison, he found religion again, was baptized in the Protestant faith in May nineteen ninety four, claimed he'd become a born again Christian again, said he was genuinely repentant. He also got married in nineteen eighty one, while awaiting sentencing.

12:22 He divorced Gloria in June nineteen ninety one, he married again. Her name has never been publicly disclosed. She visits him regularly. Conjugal visits were allowed until New York State banned them for convicted murderers in twenty eleven. Chapman has worked various jobs in prison, legal clerk, kitchen helper, chapel attendant. He's described as a model prisoner, follows the rules, doesn't cause trouble, stays in protective custody to avoid being killed by lenin fans, and every two years, like clockwork, he applies for parole. August two thousand, his first parole hearing, twenty years served. Chapman told the board he wasn't a threat to society, that John Lennon himself would have approved of his release.

13:07 The board denied him. Yoko Ono had submitted a letter asking them to keep Chapman behind bars, said she feared for her safety, for Sean's safety, for the safety of anyone Chapman might target next. That denial set the pattern for the next quarter century. October two thousand and two denied. October two thousand and four denied. Yoko wrote again, I am afraid it will bring back the nightmare, the chaos, and the description of a vision I experienced when I saw my husband lying dead. August two thousand and six denied, August two thousand and eight denied, August twenty ten denied.

13:48 Chapman told the board he was obsessed with attention. When he killed Lenin, I felt like nothing, and I felt if I shot him, I would become something which is not true. That's a lie, that's a delusion. August twenty twelve denied, August twenty fourteen denied, August twenty sixteen denied, August twenty eighteen denied. Chapman said he felt more and more shame each year. August twenty twenty denied. I assassinated him because he was very, very very famous, and that's the only reason. Chapman told the board, I was very very very very much seeking self glory, very selfish. August twenty twenty two, denied twelfth time. The board cited his selfish disregard for human life of global consequence set his actions left the world recovering from the void of which you created. March twenty twenty four denied thirteenth time, August twenty seventh, twenty twenty five, denied fourteenth time. Just three months ago. Chapman is now seventy years old. His next parole hearing is scheduled for February two, twenty twenty seven.

15:01 He will likely be denied again and again and again. The pattern is clear. The board will never release him. The crime was too notorious, the victim too beloved, the cultural impact too profound. Mark David Chapman will die in prison, not because of any single factor, but because he killed someone who mattered to millions of people, and those people will never forgive him. We'll be right back with the legacy of John Lennon's assassination. Why Chapman still represents something dangerous about fame and forty five years later, why the world still mourns. Welcome back to celebrity trials. I'm reed.

15:52 Carter yoko Ono is ninety two years old, now still living in the Dakota apartment she shared with John, the same building where he he was murdered forty five years ago. Every two years, when Chapman's parole hearing approaches, she writes a letter. The content varies, but the message is always the same. Keep him locked up. In twenty fifteen, she told The Daily Beast, one thing I think is that he did it once, he could do it again to somebody else. It could be me, it could be Sean, it could be anybody. So there is that concern she's not being paranoid. Chapman had a hit list multiple celebrities he considered killing before settling on Lenin. What's to stop him from targeting someone else if released? But Yoko's opposition goes beyond safety. It's about justice, about honoring John's memory, about refusing to let his killer walk free while she still draws breath. Their son, Sean Lennon, is now fifty years old. He was five when his father was murdered, remembers almost nothing of that night. Has spent his entire adult life in the shadow of that tragedy. Sean has spoken about Chapman rarely. What is there to say The man who killed your father applies for freedom every two years.

17:06 You have to relive the worst moment of your life over and over. There's no closure, there's no healing, just an endless cycle of parole hearings and denials. John's other son, Julian from his first marriage to Cynthia Powell, was seventeen in nineteen eighty living in England, learned of his father's death the same way the rest of the world did, through the news. Julian and John had a complicated relationship, estranged for years, reconnecting shortly before the murder. Julian never got the chance to fully know his father as an adult. That opportunity was stolen. Both sons carry the weight of Chapman's crime. Both live with a whole that can never be filled. And then there's the cultural impact. John Lennon's assassination marked the end of something the sixties dream, the belief that music could change the world, the innocence of celebrity culture. Before December eighth, nineteen eighty, famous people were accessible.

18:03 They walked among us, signed autographs, took pictures. John Lennon loved that about New York, that he could walk the streets without bodyguards, that fans would say hey John, and he'd say hey back. After December eighth, nineteen eighty, everything changed. Celebrities became walled off, protected by security teams, separated from their fans by layers of handlers and protocol. Chapman didn't just kill John Lennon, He killed the possibility of casual contact between stars and their admirers. He made everyone afraid, and he inspired others. John Hinckley Junior shot President Ronald Reagan in March nineteen eighty one, just four months after Lenin's murder. His motivation. He was obsessed with actress Jody Foster, wanted to impress her, wanted to become famous. Hinckley later said he was inspired by Chapman, saw how much attention the Lenin assassination received wanted that attention for himself. The Reagan shooting led to stricter gun control laws, the Brady Bill, named after Press Secretary James Brady, who was seriously wounded in the attack, but it also demonstrated something disturbing. Fame seekers were willing to kill for attention, and Chapman had shown them how. Robert Bardo shot actress Rebecca Schaeffer in nineteen eighty nine. Obsessed fan wanted to be famous. Same pattern.

19:26 The celebrity stalker phenomenon exploded in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties. New laws were passed, restraining orders, anti stalking statutes, all because Mark David Chapman proved that fans could be dangerous. Chapman's parole hearings have become their own cultural ritual. Every two years, the news cycle revisits the murder, replays the footage, interviews the witnesses, reminds us what we lost. In the twenty twenty two hearing, the transcript was later released, Chapman was asked about his motivations. His answer was chilling in its I knew it was wrong, I knew it was evil, but I wanted the fame so much that I was willing to give everything and take a human life. He told the board he had evil in my heart, that killing Lenin was his big answer to everything, that he was never going to be a nobody anymore. The Board's response, the worldwide impact of your crime resonates such as to evoke images, memories, and emotions internationally. Your release at this time would be incompatible with the welfare of society. Incompatible with the welfare of society, that's the key phrase. It's not about rehabilitation. Chapman has been a model prisoner for forty five years. It's not about punishment, he served far longer than most murderers. It's about what his release would mean, the message it would send that you can kill a cultural icon and eventually walk free. That's why the board

20:56 keeps denying him, and that's why they'll keep denying him until he dies. Mark David Chapman is seventy years old. He'll be seventy two at his next parole hearing in February twenty twenty seven. His health is declining, his time is running out, and somewhere in the Dakota, Yoko Ono waits, ready to write another letter, ready to fight another battle, ready to make sure the man who killed her husband never sees freedom. Some people call that vindictive. Some people say she should forgive, move on, let go. But forgiveness is for people who can't do anything else. Yoko Ono can do something. She can make sure Mark David Chapman dies in prison, and she will. That's not revenge, that's justice.

21:43 That's part two of our John Lennon Assassination Special. Monday marks forty five years since December eighth, nineteen eighty, forty five years since Mark David Chapman waited outside the Dakota, got an autograph, fired, five shots, changed the world. N Lennon was forty years old, singer, songwriter, activist, dreamer, father, husband gone in seconds. Because it disturbed nobody wanted to be somebody. Chapman got what he wanted. We're still talking about him, still saying his name, still giving him the attention he craved. But we're also still talking about John, still playing his music, still dreaming his dreams. The peace sign, the bed INDs, the hope that love could overcome hate.

22:30 Chapman killed the man he couldn't kill the message. Fourteen parole denials, next hearing February twenty twenty seven, then again in twenty twenty nine and two thousand and thirty one, until Mark David Chapman dies behind bars, which he almost certainly will. Is that justice? Maybe? Is it enough? No? Nothing is enough. Nothing brings John back, nothing fills the void. All we can do is remember John Winston Ono Lennon born October ninth, nineteen forty died December eighth, nineteen eighty forty years old. Rest in peace, John, The world still misses you. I'm reed Carter Tomorrow. Back to regular trial coverage.

23:17 This is celebrity trials