Aug. 7, 2026

Lindsay Clancy's Nanny Testifies for the Prosecution, Rosa Kramer Went Home for Her Mother's Bowl, Gerhardt Konig Wants a New Trial

Lindsay Clancy's Nanny Testifies for the Prosecution, Rosa Kramer Went Home for Her Mother's Bowl, Gerhardt Konig Wants a New Trial

Prosecutors in Lindsay Clancy's murder trial called the family's former nanny, who told jurors Clancy was a devoted mother and described Cora, 5, Dawson, 3, and Callan, 8 months — testimony the Commonwealth is using to argue Clancy was organized, oriented and in command of her household. Clancy has pleaded not guilty to three counts of first-degree murder in the January 2023 deaths at their Duxbury, Massachusetts home and argues she was not criminally responsible due to postpartum psychosis. Jurors also heard DNA and toxicology evidence, and the state was expected to call the medical examiner's office. Also: in Pensacola, Florida, Timothy Kramer, 53, is on trial for first-degree premeditated murder and aggravated animal cruelty in the July 2024 shooting death of his estranged wife, Rosa Maria Kramer, 47, who had left him two weeks earlier and returned to collect her belongings. He has pleaded not guilty; his defense concedes he fired the shots and argues self-defense. And in Honolulu, Gerhardt Konig — convicted in April of attempted manslaughter in the cliffside attack on his wife, Arielle Konig — is seeking a new trial, arguing the jury misunderstood its instructions. His sentencing is off the calendar pending a hearing.


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Kalaroga Shark Media. Good morning. This is Daily Crime and

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Justice from Calaroga Shark Media, powered by AI. I'm Garrett Fisher. Friday,

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August seventh, twenty twenty six. Three stories today, and two

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of them are the same story wearing different clothes. We

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start in Plymouth, Massachusetts, where the woman who used to

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take care of Cora Dawson and Callan Clancy took the

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witness stand this week and told a jury that their

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mother was a wonderful mom who loved her kids. She

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was called by the prosecution think about that for a second.

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The state put a witness up there to say the

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defendant was a good mother and then sat down. And

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yesterday the Medical Examiner's office was expected to take that

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same stand and walk the jury through exactly what happened

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to those three children's bodies. The distance between those two

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pieces of testimony is the entire trial. Then we go

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to Pensacola, Florida. Rosa Kramer was forty seven years old.

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She had left her husband two weeks earlier and moved

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into her father's house. On the morning of July twenty third,

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twenty twenty four, she went back to the home she

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used to live in to pick up her things. Her

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mother had died, and there were things of her mother

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still in that house, a bowl, a photo album, her

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own birth certificate. She timed the trip so she would

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be gone before her husband got home from his overnight shift.

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He got off work early. He parked his truck behind

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the house, behind the privacy fence so she would not

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see it. Rosa Kramer was shot four times. Her husband's

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defense attorney told a jury this week that she left

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him with no other choice. And then we go to Honolulu,

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where a doctor who was convicted in April of trying

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to kill his wife on a cliff side hiking trail

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has decided that the problem was not the evidence. The

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problem was that the jury did not understand what it

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was doing. He wants a new trial. He has two arguments.

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One of them is a real legal question. The other

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one is a comment somebody left on YouTube under a

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picture of Bart Simpson. I'm not making that up. We'll

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get there. Look, I'm gonna be honest with you. Two

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of the three cases on this show today come down

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to the same fact pattern. A woman decided to leave

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and a man decided that was not going to be

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allowed everything after that is lawyers. We have been with

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this trial since jury selection, and we are going to

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stay with it until there is a verdict. Cora Clancy

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was five years old, Dawson Clancy was three, Callan Clancy

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was eight months old. They were killed in the basement

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of their home on Summer Street in Duxbury, Massachusetts, on

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January twenty fourth, twenty twenty three. Their mother, Lindsey Clancy,

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has admitted that she strangled them with exercise bands. She

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has pleaded not guilty to three counts of first two

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murder on the grounds that she was not criminally responsible

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for what she did because she was suffering from postpartum

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psychosis at the time. That is the whole fight, not

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what happened why. Wednesday was day seven of testimony, and

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it was a half day. The jury heard from the

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prosecution's forty fifth witness in seven days, which tells you

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something about how methodically the state is building this Her

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name is Elaine Rossy. She was the last nanny the

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Clancy family ever hired. Rossi has worked as a nanny

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for fifteen years. She lives in Kingston. In the summer

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of twenty twenty two, she answered a Facebook post from

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a woman in Duxbury looking for part time help. That

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woman was Lindsey Clancy, who was on maternity leave with

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her third child and planning to go back to work

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as a labor and delivery nurse in November. Rossi started

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in September three days a week. She was hired mostly

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to look after the baby, but she got close to

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all three of them fast. So the prosecution asked her

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about the children. And here is what a jury in

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Plymouth count heard about Cora, Dawson and Callen Clancy. Cora

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was a girly girl. Rossi said. She loved her baby dolls,

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she loved arts and crafts, she had to pretend kitchen

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she played with. Dawson was full of energy, rambunctious, funny, silly,

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and Callen Rossi said was the happiest, sweetest, easiest baby.

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Lindsey Clancy sobbed at the defense table while that testimony

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came in. Rossie also told the jury about a notebook.

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She and Clancy kept it on the kitchen counter and

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passed notes back and forth in it, nap schedules what

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the kids were going to do that day. Ordinary logistics

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of a household with three small children, in it. The

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jury was shown pages from that notebook. I want to

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sit with that for a minute, because that notebook is

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now an exhibit in a murder trial. Pages of a

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mother writing down when the baby sleeps now here is

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the part that matters legally, and it is the reason

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a lot of people watching this trial got confused. Wednesday,

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the prosecution called this witness. The state, which is trying

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to convict Lindsay Clancy of first degree murder, put a

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woman on the stand who described the defendant as a

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wonderful mom. That is not a mistake, That is a choice.

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Remember what Assistant District Attorney shaneon Buckingham told this jury

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in her opening statement. She did not argue that Lindsay

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Clancy was a bad mother. She argued that Lindsay Clancy

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was extremely controlling, meticulous, manipulative, and that when her life

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started getting harder to control, she saw a way out

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and took it and took her children with her because

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she did not trust anyone else to have them. Under

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that theory, the notebook is not evidence of love. It

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is evidence of control. The detailed nap schedules, the documentation,

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the management of every hour, all of it goes into

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the same column. Prosecutors are using the picture of a devoted, organized,

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hands on mother to argue that this was a woman

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who was completely oriented to reality and completely in command

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of her household right up until the moment she decided.

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Defense attorney Kevin Reddington got up on cross examination and

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worked the same witness from the other direction, and he

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got what he needed. Rossie acknowledged that Clancy had told

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her she was struggling with postpartum depression, that she was

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having trouble sleeping, that she had been spending nights down

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in the basement, that in the months before the killing,

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she had lost significant weight. And Rossi told the jury

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that she never once worried that Lindsey Clancy might be

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a danger to those children or to herself. Both sides

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will take that answer. The defense hears it as proof

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that this was an illness that hid itself until it exploded.

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The prosecution hears it as proof that there was nothing

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visibly wrong with this woman, because nothing was wrong with

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this woman. Rossie stopped working for the family in December

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of twenty twenty two, when Clancy decided not to return

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to her nursing job. She said nobody explained why she

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was gone one month before the children died. The rest

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of Wednesday moved move fast. Forensic analysts testified about DNA

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recovered from the house. Toxicologists testified about what was in

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lindsay clancy system. In January of twenty twenty three, a

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medical provider who treated her at a Boston hospital took

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the stand the toxicology is worth pausing on because the

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defense theory is not only that she was mentally ill,

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it is that she was misdiagnosed and over medicated by

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the people who were supposed to be treating her. Doctor

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Justin Brower walked the jury through the blood work. One

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drug in her system is normally an anti seizure medication

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that is also used to treat bipolar disorder, and he

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said it was right in the middle of the therapeutic range.

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A second drug, same story. A third and antipsychotic, looked

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high to him depending on the dosage, though he would

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not call it toxic or lethal. A fourth look therapeutic,

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and on cross Reddington got him to agree that blood

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levels do not tell the whole story without knowing the

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underlying facts of a case. That is the defense chipping

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nobody is going to win this trial on a toxicology chart.

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But every witness who says the medication picture was complicated

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is a witness the defense will point back to enclosing.

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There was also a development Tuesday that is going to

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shorten this trial. Lindsey Clancy agreed to a stipulation, which

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means she and her lawyers formally accepted certain facts as true,

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so the state does not have to call witnesses to

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prove them. When the defense is not contesting that she

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did it, there is no reason to make a parade

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of technicians establish it. That agreement is likely to knock

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a meaningful number of witnesses off the list, which brings

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us to yesterday, day eight, a full day, and the

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case moved to the part everybody in that courtroom has

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been bracing for. Prosecutors were expected to call a doctor

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from the Massachusetts Medical Examiner's Office. That witness is the

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one who opens the door to the autopsy evidence, including

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autopsy photographs that Judge William Sullivan has impowered. Those images

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have been kept from the public and from cameras. The

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jury sees them nobody else. Does. I want to be

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straight with you about how we are handling this. We

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are recording this show while that testimony is still going on.

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So I am telling you what was scheduled and what

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the reporting in the room said was coming, not what

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a witness ultimately said. We will have the medical examiner's

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testimony for you on Monday, but I can tell you

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what it is for the medical examiner is the witness.

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The defense cannot argue with. Everything else in this trial

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is interpretation. Was she psychotic? Was she in control? Did

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the drugs help or hurt? The autopsy is not interpretation.

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The autopsy is a record of what was done to

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three small bodies, and it is going to be entered

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into evidence in front of twelve people who have spent

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two weeks looking at photographs of a house full of toys.

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The state's cause of death findings have been public since

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twenty twenty three. Cora and Dawson died of asphyxia. Callan

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died of complications of asphyxia three days later at Boston

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Children's Hospital after his father agreed to stop life support.

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Here is where this trial is headed. The prosecution is

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still putting on its case. When they rest, the defense goes,

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and that is when you will hear the postpartum psychosis

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evidence in full. Reddington has told the jury his client

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experienced command hallucinations, that a male voice in her head

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told her to kill the children and then herself, and

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that she could not resist it. After the defense rest

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the state gets to come back with its own mental

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health experts and rebuttal to argue that she knew what

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she was doing and could have stopped. And one thing

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worth saying clearly because people keep getting it wrong. If

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this jury finds Lindsey Clancy not criminally responsible, she does

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not walk out of that courthouse. She goes to a

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state psychiatric hospital and she stays there under periodic review

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until a court is satisfied she can live safely in

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the community. She is already in custody at Tewkesbury Hospital.

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She is paralyzed from the injuries she caused herself that night.

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There is no version of this where she goes home.

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Cora Clancy, Dawson Clancy, Callan Clancy five three and eight

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months old. Somebody has to keep saying their names because

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this trial is about to become extremely technical and it

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is easy to lose them in it. When we come back.

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A woman in Pensacola went home to get her dead

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mother's bowl and never left the house alive, and her

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husband's lawyer says she left him with no other choice.

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Rosa Maria Kramer was forty seven years old. She lived

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in Pensacola in Escambia County in the Florida Panhandle. She

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had a father she took care of. She had a

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sister who checked on her. She had a dog. She

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had a husband, Timothy Kramer, and in July of twenty

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twenty four, she left him. She packed up and moved

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into her father's house. She left a letter behind for him,

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explaining herself, this is a new case for us, so

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let me set the ground rules up front. Timothy Kramer,

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now fifty three, is charged with first degree premeditated murder

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and aggravated animal cruelty. He has pleaded not guilty. He

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is presumed innocent, and this trial is happening right now

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in Escambia County. His lawyers concede he pulled the trigger.

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What they dispute is why so when I described the

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States case, understand that is an allegation a jury has

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not yet ruled on. Here is what is not in dispute.

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About two weeks after Rosa left on the morning of

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July twenty third, twenty twenty four. She drove back to

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the house on Hillcrest Avenue where the two of them

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had lived. She was there to collect her belongings. She

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arrived around six in the morning, and she picked that

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hour to deliberately because her husband worked an overnight shift

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and was not due home until eight. The plan was

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to be gone before he got there. Prosecutor Amy Shay

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told the jury in her opening statement Tuesday that the

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entire morning was a setup. She said Timothy Kramer had

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spent the previous day trying to get his wife to

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talk to him and getting nothing back. She said he

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then told her he had things she needed, items that

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had belonged to her mother who had died, a bowl,

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a photo album, her birth certificate, and Shaye told the

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jury he specifically told his wife to come first thing

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in the morning so that the two of them would

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not have to see each other because he would still

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be at work. He was not still at work, according

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to the state. He left early, came home ahead of her,

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and parked his truck around the back of the house

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where she would not see it when she pulled in

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on Wednesday, the jury heard the messages. Britney Crawford, a

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criminal investigator with the Escambia County Sheriff's Office, read them

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into the record, twenty four hours of text from Timothy

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Kramer to his estranged wife on July twenty second. She

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did not answer any of them. He asked if he

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could call her, just to hear her voice. He told

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her he was hurting badly without her. He told her

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he loved her and missed her, and asked her to

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come spend the night. He pushed her on the letter

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she had left, telling her she had said that day

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that they could fix things, and he brought up a

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night gown she had left behind at the house and

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told her that leaving it there had been leading him

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on for three days. Twenty four hours of that into silence.

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The defense pushed back on the framing. Attorney Andrew Benson

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told the jury there were days and weeks of messages

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between these two people showing that the feelings were unresolved

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on both sides, not just his, and he flatly denied

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there was any plot to kill her. I want to

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be fair to that argument, so let me put it

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the way the defense would two people in a collapsing

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00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.919
marriage send each other a lot of messages, and if

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00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:00.840
you pick out only the day desperate ones, you can

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make anybody look like a predator. That is a real

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00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.919
point about how evidence gets curated. Now here's the state's

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answer to it. And it does not come from a prosecutor.

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It comes from the defendant. Sometime after Rosa Kramer was shot,

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Timothy Kramer started texting his sister, Dolores Kramer, Call me now,

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00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:23.000
he wrote, call me now, it is important. When he

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got her, he told her he had killed his wife

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and that it was self defense. About half an hour

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after that first text, his sister wrote back and told

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him he had said he killed her and that she

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00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.679
could not be an accessory to this, and that she

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had a fiance and his daughter to think about. And

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then Timothy Kramer asked his sister a question. He asked

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00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.919
it more than once. He asked her to be honest

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with him about whether if they put out a warrant

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for his arrest, she would be willing to hide him

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00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:53.519
at her house. His sister kept telling him he had

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nothing to worry about if it was really self defense.

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He was not convinced because he had gone and looked

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up floor to stand your ground law, and he told

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00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.360
her that after reading it, he thought he was in

284
00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.720
serious trouble because by what he had read, he did

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00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.039
not have the right to use it. That is the defendant,

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00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.080
in his own words, hours after the shooting, telling his

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00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:16.600
own sister that he had just researched the legal defense

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00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.480
his lawyers are now running, and concluded it did not

289
00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:23.039
apply to him. There is a playbook for this. You

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00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:25.399
shoot somebody, you get out ahead of it. You tell

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00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:28.080
one person your version, so it is on the record somewhere,

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00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:30.399
and you go find out how much trouble you are

293
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.799
actually in. What he was not counting on was that

294
00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:35.919
every one of those messages would be read out loud

295
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:38.639
in a courtroom two years later by a sheriff's investigator.

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00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.000
There is one more piece. After Rosa Kramer stopped answering

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00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.039
her phone, her sister got messages from Rosa's number saying

298
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.799
she had gone to the beach and saying that Timothy

299
00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.799
had done nothing but give her her things and that

300
00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.679
she had left. Her sister did not buy it. She

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00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:59.039
called the Escambia County Sheriff's office that day because Rosa

302
00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:02.399
had missed taking their to a doctor's appointment, and Rosa

303
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.039
did not miss things like that. Deputies found Timothy Kramer

304
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.960
at his sister's house in Milton. His sister told them

305
00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.200
that her brother had admitted shooting his wife in the

306
00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.640
head and claimed self defense. When deputies got to the

307
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.480
house on Hillcrest, there was blood on the tile floor

308
00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.559
in several places. They found the dog, a medium sized dog,

309
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:26.880
severely injured and malnourished. That dog survived, and then in

310
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.000
a back bedroom they found Rosa Kramer on the floor,

311
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.680
wedged between the bed and the wall with multiple gunshot wounds.

312
00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:37.440
She had been shot four times, two shots to the head,

313
00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.759
one to her side, one to her knee. Now the

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00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:44.240
defense theory, and I am going to explain it rather

315
00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:48.119
than endorse it, because that is the job. Andrew Benson

316
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.519
told the jury that this was a marriage in pieces

317
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.519
and that Rosa Kramer showed up that morning upset and

318
00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.359
determined to buy the property out from under her estranged husband.

319
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.359
When he refused, Benson said she attacked him, punching him

320
00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.799
kicking him in the knees. Benson said his client went

321
00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.119
into survival mode, pushed her back, staggered to the gun

322
00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:12.000
grabbed it and fired in her direction as she came

323
00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.240
at him again. He told the jury that Rosa Kramer

324
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.240
had a black belt and that Timothy Kramer had bad

325
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.920
knees in a bad back. And he said that what

326
00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:24.000
happened was a tragedy, but that Rosa left him with

327
00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:27.400
no other choice. And on the dog, the defense has

328
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.599
an answer to prosecutors say he shot his wife and

329
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.599
he shot the dog. Benson told the jury the dog

330
00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:35.839
got between the two of them when the gun went off,

331
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.559
and that the bullets passed through the dog and into

332
00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:41.880
Rosa Kramer. Let me be careful here, because a jury

333
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.319
is going to test that theory against physical evidence. I

334
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.440
have not seen, and neither have you, but I will

335
00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:50.119
tell you what that theory has to carry. It has

336
00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.720
to explain four separate gunshot wounds, including two to the

337
00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:55.400
head of a woman found on the floor of a

338
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.599
back bedroom wedged against a wall. It has to explain

339
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:01.319
a shot to the knee, to explain a dog that

340
00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:06.160
deputies described as not just shot but malnourished. And it

341
00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:09.319
has to sit alongside a defendant who within hours was

342
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:12.000
asking his sister to hide him and telling her that

343
00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:14.480
he had read the self defense statute and did not

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00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.160
think it covered him. That is a lot of way

345
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.480
on the phrase survival mode. And here is the part

346
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:22.960
I keep coming back to. Rosa Kramer did everything you

347
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.920
are supposed to do. She left, she moved in with

348
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.559
her father. She timed her return to the house for

349
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:31.359
a window when he would not be there. She was

350
00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.880
not being careless, She was being careful, and she was

351
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:38.160
careful in exactly the way people tell women to be careful.

352
00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:41.400
The two weeks after a woman leaves are the most

353
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.400
dangerous two weeks of her life. Everybody who works in

354
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:47.519
this field knows that Rosa Kramer knew it well enough

355
00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:50.599
to plan around it. It was not enough because the

356
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.839
person she was planning around knew the plan. She went

357
00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.680
back for a bowl that belonged to her mother. Rosa

358
00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:02.000
Maria Kramer, forty seven years old, Pence Zacola, Florida, say

359
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:06.720
her name after the break. A convicted doctor in Hawaii

360
00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.960
says the jury that convicted him did not understand its

361
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.279
own verdict. And one of his exhibits is a YouTube comment.

362
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.559
Gerhard Koenig wants a do over. Longtime listeners know this one.

363
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:34.119
We covered the Gerhart Konig trial in Honolulu, from the

364
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:36.799
first day of testimony through the verdict, and if you

365
00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:40.279
are new, here is the short version. March twenty fourth,

366
00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:45.279
twenty twenty five, Ariel Koenig's birthday, her husband Gerhart Koenig,

367
00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.319
an anesthesiologist based on Maui, took her to Oahu for

368
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.720
the weekend. They went hiking on the Polypuka Trail, a

369
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:54.279
narrow cliff edge route that the state of Hawaii has

370
00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:58.160
actually closed because of how dangerous it is. What happened

371
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:00.640
on that trail was the subject of a three week trial.

372
00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:04.599
Ariel Koenig testified that her husband attacked her near the edge,

373
00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:07.720
tried to stab her with a syringe, and when that failed,

374
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.279
beat her in the head with a rock. She said

375
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:12.839
she screamed because she believed he was trying to knock

376
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.920
her unconscious so he could drag her over the side.

377
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.319
Two hikers heard her came running and found them. That

378
00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.839
interruption is why she is alive. She was hospitalized in

379
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.440
critical condition with a fractured skull and a complex scalp laceration.

380
00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:30.000
Her husband was gone when police arrived and was arrested

381
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:34.079
hours later. Gerhardt Koenig testified in his own defense and

382
00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:37.279
told the jury a completely different story. He said his

383
00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.160
wife shoved him first, tried to push him off the edge,

384
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:42.799
and hit him with a rock, and that everything he

385
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.839
did was self defense. Prosecutors said the real motive was

386
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.799
that he had discovered his wife's relationship with a coworker

387
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:53.119
and did not want to pay for a divorce. His

388
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.519
own older son testified that his father admitted to trying

389
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.519
to kill her. On April eighth of this year, after

390
00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.480
more than eight eight hours of deliberation, a Honolulu jury

391
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.640
came back not guilty of second degree attempted murder, guilty

392
00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:10.599
of attempted manslaughter based on extreme mental or emotional disturbance.

393
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.519
We explained the mechanics of that verdict on this show

394
00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.279
when it came down in Hawaii. That is not a

395
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:19.599
lesser finding about what he did. It is a finding

396
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.039
that he intended to kill her, but that he was

397
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.000
under such extreme emotional disturbance at the time that his

398
00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.480
culpability is reduced. Intent to kill is still an element.

399
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:35.359
The disturbance mitigates it, it does not erase it. Maximum

400
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:40.559
sentence twenty years. Judge Paul Wong set sentencing for August thirteenth.

401
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.200
That is next Thursday. It is not happening next Thursday

402
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.359
because Gerhard Koenig has filed a motion for a new trial,

403
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.720
and the argument is this. His lawyers say, the jury

404
00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:53.880
did not actually find intent to kill and therefore convicted

405
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.559
him of a crime it did not believe he committed.

406
00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.279
Where does that come from? After the trial, to jus

407
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:04.079
gave interviews about their experience. Koenig's defense went through those

408
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:07.680
interviews and says the jurors repeatedly indicated they did not

409
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.000
believe he intended to kill his wife and describe conduct

410
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.720
that sounds more like recklessness than a specific intent to kill.

411
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.240
In an excerpt attached to the motion, the jury four

412
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.799
person said the whole panel agreed Ariel Koenig had suffered

413
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.480
a head injury that could have caused serious harm, but

414
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:27.599
that nobody thought he meant to kill her. And the

415
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.039
defense has a signed declaration from that four person stating

416
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.119
that the jury did not unanimously believe he had an

417
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.200
intent to kill his wife. I want to be honest

418
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:39.880
with you. If you take that at face value, that

419
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:43.759
is a serious problem because in Hawaii you cannot be

420
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:47.480
guilty of attempted manslaughter under this theory. Unless you intended

421
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.759
to kill. If twelve people convicted him of a crime

422
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:53.440
while not agreeing on its central element, that is not

423
00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:58.200
a technicality. That is a broken verdict. But there is

424
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.119
a reason courts almost never go down this road, and

425
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.440
it is worth understanding because it is going to decide

426
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:08.279
this motion. There is a long standing principle in American

427
00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.000
law that you generally cannot impeach a verdict with the

428
00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:14.880
juror's own accounts of how they deliberated. Once the verdict

429
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.160
is announced and the jury is discharged, what happened in

430
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:23.039
that room is essentially sealed. There are narrow exceptions, mostly

431
00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:27.039
for outside influence, for information that reached the jury improperly,

432
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:31.240
and in some jurisdictions, for racial bias. The reason for

433
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.839
that rule is not cruelty. It is that if losing

434
00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.519
parties could go interview jurors afterward and hunt for confusion,

435
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:41.559
no verdict in this country would ever be final. Jurors

436
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.119
are not lawyers. Ask any twelve people to describe a

437
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.519
legal standard weeks after the fact, and you will get

438
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:51.240
twelve different descriptions, and about nine of them will be wrong.

439
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:55.119
That is not evidence the verdict was invalid. That is

440
00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.799
evidence that legal instructions are hard. Prosecutors have filed their opposition,

441
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.880
and that is essentially their position. They argue these statements

442
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:06.000
do not amount to the kind of misconduct that lets

443
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.119
a court reopen its own verdict. They also note in

444
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.000
that filing that when the state sent an investigator to

445
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.640
speak with the four person about the declaration she had

446
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.000
given the defense, she appeared visibly upset and said she

447
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.839
did not want to be interviewed. That detail is the

448
00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:24.440
state's characterization in the state's own filing, and I want

449
00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.160
to flag it as such. But if it holds up,

450
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.920
it complicates things because it suggests a juror who signed

451
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:33.319
something for one side and then did not want to

452
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.160
talk about it with the other. Now the second argument

453
00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.440
in Koenig's motion, which is where this gets ridiculous. His

454
00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:42.359
lawyers also raised the possibility that a juror was using

455
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:46.359
a phone to communicate during deliberations. Their evidence is a

456
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:49.400
screenshot of a comment posted in the Law and Crime

457
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.960
YouTube stream of the trial. The account posting it had

458
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.559
a Bart Simpson profile picture and the phrase eat my shorts.

459
00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:59.599
The comment claims the poster had been texting with one

460
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.640
of the Jews error and that they were going for

461
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:06.359
count three. That is it, that is the exhibit. Prosecutor's

462
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:09.519
response was about what you would expect. They said there

463
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:12.799
is no indication beyond an anonymous Internet comment that any

464
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:16.680
contact happened, and that an anonymous YouTube comment is not

465
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:20.920
sufficient to warrant a new trial. They are right. Attaching

466
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.319
a Bart Simpson account to a motion in a violent

467
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:26.240
felony case tells me the defense knows the first argument

468
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:28.799
is doing all the work. One more piece of this

469
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:32.519
that is actually straightforward law. Koenig's lawyers argue that if

470
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.640
he does get a new trial, it can only be

471
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:37.799
on the manslaughter charge because the first jury acquitted him

472
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.319
of second degree attempted murder. That part is correct. Double

473
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.519
jeopardy means the state does not get a second run

474
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.160
at the greater charge. He was found not guilty of it,

475
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:49.160
and that is permanent. There is a hearing on all

476
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.240
of this on August fourteenth. The sentencing that was supposed

477
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:55.160
to happen on the thirteenth is off the calendar until

478
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:58.680
this gets resolved. And look, he is entitled to file this.

479
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.720
Everybody convicted of if a felony is entitled to challenge

480
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:04.000
the verdict and if the first argument is right, he

481
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.920
should get relieved. That is how the system is supposed

482
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.079
to work. But I want to name what is also true.

483
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:14.440
Every filing is another month, every hearing is another delay.

484
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:17.319
Ariel Konig was beaten in the head with a rock

485
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:20.680
on her own birthday, survived because two strangers happened to

486
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.880
be walking the same trail, spent time in critical condition,

487
00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:28.480
and has since divorced him. She testified she sat in

488
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:31.000
that courtroom and told twelve people what her husband did

489
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:34.000
to her. She has been waiting since April for a sentence.

490
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.839
She is going to keep waiting. Ariel Konig is alive

491
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.640
because two people on a hiking trail heard screaming and

492
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:43.680
ran toward it instead of away from it. That is

493
00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:46.400
worth saying out loud on a show that mostly covers

494
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:53.720
what happens when nobody does. That is the show for Friday,

495
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:57.759
August seventh, Monday, we will have the medical examiner's testimony

496
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:00.799
from the Clancy trial and whatever came out of Thursday

497
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.839
and Friday in that courtroom. We will stay on the

498
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.359
Kramer trial in Escambia County as the state's case continues,

499
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.319
and we will be watching the August fourteenth hearing in Honolulu.

500
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.599
If this episode was worth your time, the single most

501
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:17.119
useful thing you can do is tell somebody about it,

502
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:20.799
share it with one person who follows these cases. Word

503
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.880
of mouth is the entire reason this show exists. And

504
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:28.039
if you are listening on Spotify, leave a comment. There

505
00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:31.200
is a comment box right there on the episode. Tell

506
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:33.960
me what you think about the Koenig motion or tell

507
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.119
me I got something wrong. I read them for Calaroga

508
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:43.119
Shark Media. I'm Garrett Fisher, Cora Dawson, and Callan Clancy, Rosa,

509
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:47.200
Maria Kramer, Ariel Koenig, who is still here? Do better?

510
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:52.000
A few notes on sourcing and legal status before we go.

511
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.799
Timothy Kramer has pleaded not guilty and is presumed innocent.

512
00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:58.920
He is on trial right now, and everything attributed to

513
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:01.839
prosecutors in this app episode is an allegation that a

514
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:05.559
jury has not yet decided. The defense account of the

515
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:10.519
shooting is his lawyer's opening statement, not a finding of fact. Court.

516
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:14.279
TV datelined its reporting on this case from Orlando. The

517
00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:17.839
killing happened in Pensacola and the cases being prosecuted in

518
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.240
Escambia County, and that is how we described it. Kramer's

519
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.079
age was reported as fifty one and fifty two at

520
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:28.039
the time of his twenty twenty four arrest, and is

521
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:32.599
now reported as fifty three. Most reporting places the killing

522
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:36.000
on July twenty third, twenty twenty four. At least one

523
00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:40.079
local account reference July twenty fourth, Court TV reports that

524
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.319
Rosa Kramer had moved into her father's home. An early

525
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.519
account of the arrest report described her as living elsewhere.

526
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.640
Lindsey Clancy has admitted the killings. The contested issue is

527
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:57.440
criminal responsibility, not identity. Thursday's session, including the medical examiner testimony,

528
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:00.839
was still underway when this episode was record, so we

529
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:04.920
reported what was scheduled and expected, not what was ultimately said.

530
00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:08.920
Autopsy photographs in that case are impounded and have not

531
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:13.519
been released publicly. Descriptions of Wednesday's testimony come from courtroom

532
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:18.319
reporting by The Boston Globe, CBS Boston, NBC Boston, and

533
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.200
Court TV. In the ConA case, the juror interviews, the

534
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.079
four persons, signed declaration, and the YouTube screenshot are exhibits

535
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.559
filed by the defense. The description of the four person's

536
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:33.559
reaction to a state investigator comes from the prosecution's opposition filing.

537
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:36.839
No court has ruled on any of it. The hearing

538
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.279
is set for August fourteenth. This episode discussed suicide, postpart

539
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.759
of mental illness, and domestic violence. If you are struggling,

540
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.480
the Suicide in Crisis Lifeline is available around the clock

541
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.799
by calling or texting nine eight eight. For postpartum and

542
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:56.720
maternal mental health, the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline is

543
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:01.200
free and confidential at one eight three three t LC

544
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:05.880
m A m A. If you are in an unsafe relationship,

545
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:09.680
the National Domestic Violence Hotline is one eight hundred seven

546
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:13.160
nine nine seven two three three. This program is produced

547
00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:17.480
by Calaroga Shark Media Research Assistance is AI assisted and

548
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:20.519
reviewed before broadcast. Nothing here is legal advice.