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Aug. 19, 2026

Lindsay Clancy's Mother Testifies She Warned Them a Month Before, the First Witnesses in the Tupac Trial, No September Mangione Trial

Lindsay Clancy's Mother Testifies She Warned Them a Month Before, the First Witnesses in the Tupac Trial, No September Mangione Trial

The Commonwealth rested its case against Lindsay Clancy on Monday after four weeks and more than seventy witnesses, and the defense opened by calling her family. Her mother, Paula Musgrove, testified that Clancy texted her in October 2022 asking her to come stay — "I'm really sick. Something is wrong" — and that in December, standing in the kitchen with Clancy and her then-husband, her daughter said she had thoughts of harming the children. On cross, Musgrove told prosecutors she was not concerned for the children's safety at the time "because I was there." Clancy's sister, Allison Ozga, described a decline beginning at Thanksgiving. Clancy has pleaded not guilty to three counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Cora, 5, Dawson, 3, and Callan, 8 months, and contests criminal responsibility. Also: in Las Vegas, the first witnesses testified in the murder trial of Duane Davis in the 1996 killing of Tupac Shakur, including a retired officer who rode in the ambulance with Shakur. And in Manhattan, Judge Gregory Carro set an October 9 deadline for the district attorney's response and a December 10 hearing on Luigi Mangione's motion to dismiss the state murder case, taking the September 8 trial off the calendar.

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WEBVTT

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Caalaroga Shark Media.

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Good morning.

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This is Daily Crime and Justice from Calaroga Shark Media

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powered by AI. I'm Garrett Fischer. Today is Wednesday, August nineteenth,

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twenty twenty six. For four weeks in Plymouth, Massachusetts, the

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commonwealth has been building a case that Lindsay Clancy knew

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exactly what she was doing. Fourteen days of testimony, more

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than seventy witnesses, phone records, watch data, search history, autopsy photographs,

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a timeline built minute by minute from a dead woman's

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step count. On Monday morning, the prosecution rested, and then

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for the first time in this trial, the other side

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got to put on witnesses, not cross examine, not object,

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actually stand up and call people to the stand and

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ask them what they saw and who did Kevin Reddington

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call first, not an expert, not a psychiatrist with a

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curriculum viti as long as your arm. He called her family,

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her sister, her mother, and on Tuesday, her former mother

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in law, the woman who used to be her nurse

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colleague and is now the grandmother of the three children

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she killed. Look, I'm going to be honest with you.

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That is not an accident. That is a strategy because

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for four weeks this jury has been looking at data,

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and data does not cry on the witness stand.

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Data does not say.

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The words she was begging for help a grandmother does.

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We have got three big cases moving today, and all

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three of them turned this week. Clancy and Plymouth, the

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Tupac Shakur murder trial finally putting witnesses on the stand

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in Las Vegas thirty years late. And in Manhattan, a

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judge just pulled Luigi Mengioni's September murder trial off the calendar,

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and now there is a real question about whether that

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trial ever happens. Let's start in Plymouth before anything else.

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The names Cora Clancy was five years old, Dawson Clancy

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was three, Callan Clancy was eight months old.

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They were killed in.

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The basement of their home on Summer Street in Duxbury, Massachusetts,

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on January twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, with exercise bands.

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Their mother has admitted she did it. Lindsey Clancy, now

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thirty six, has pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder.

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That plea is not a denial that she killed them.

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Her attorney has told this jury from the start that

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she did.

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What she disputes is.

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Whether she can be held criminally responsible, whether she was

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in the grip of postpartum psychosis and bipolar illness at

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the time, and whether the medications prescribed to her by

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the people she went to for help made all of

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it worse. That is the whole case, not who, not how,

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just whether the law can hold her accountable for it.

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So here is where things stand. Monday morning, the Commonwealth

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called its last witness, a forensic exams emmin are named

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Ian Whiffin, who works for Kellibright and who is testified

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in both of the Karen Reid trials. His job was

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the timeline and he walked the jury through the minutes

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when Patrick Clancy was out of the house picking up

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a takeout order and a prescription. The Apple watch recorded

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a heart rate of fifty seven at five point twenty

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three in the evening. The last movement the device is

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captured was a trip up two flights of stairs, ending

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at five point thirty eight. After that nothing, Lindsey Clancy

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was found outside the house on the ground after cutting

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herself and going out a second story window. Wiffin also

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testified about search history. In the week before the killings.

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There were searches on her phone about ketamine for suicidal thinking,

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and the next day searches for the symptoms of postpartum psychosis. Now,

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prosecutors put that in front of the jury for a

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reason they wanted to read as a woman researching the

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defense she would later use. Reddington wants it to read

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as a woman trying to figure out what was happening

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inside her own head. Same search, two completely different stories.

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And on cross Reddington did what he has done all trial,

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which is attack the completeness of the record. He established

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that the phone and the watch stopped reporting data at

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five point thirty eight, and that nobody can say what

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happened after that. He held up an Apple watch and

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asked the witness if he had ever seen it before.

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The witness said no and explained that they pull watch

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data off the SINC phone, not the watch itself. Then

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the Commonwealth rested and the defense stood up. The first

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witnesses were the people who loved her. Margaret hamp a

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labor and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General who worked alongside her,

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Her sister Alison Osga, who testified that when she saw

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Lindsay at Thanksgiving of twenty twenty two, her mood was

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not good and that by December she seemed to have

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decompensated badly. Ozga said she asked her sister directly whether

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she was safe. Her sister told her she was. Then

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Paula Musgrove took the stand, Lindsey Clancy's mother. Musgrove told

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the jury that the change started in the second week

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of October twenty twenty two. On October twentieth, her daughter

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sent her a text message, and the jury saw it

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on a screen in the courtroom. Reported by ABC News,

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it read, in part, mom, will you please come up

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and stay with me for a bit? She wrote that

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she was really sick, that something was wrong, that she

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had not slept, and that she did not want to

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be alone. Musgrove went and stayed for a week. She

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and her husband were both still working, and she told

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a jury that when she got there, her daughter was,

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in her words to court TV's cameras, afraid to be

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alone and actually asked whether she could sleep in the

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same bed as her mother. Think about that for a second.

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A thirty five year old labor and delivery nurse, a

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woman who spent her career walking other women through the

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worst pain of their lives, asking her mom if she

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can sleep in her bed because she is too frightened

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to be by her self in her own house. Musgrove

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testified that her daughter had lost a lot of weight,

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that she said she could not remember anything, that she

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told her family the medication was destroying her mind, that

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this was not her and that she just wanted to

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feel better and enjoy her kids again. And then the

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moment that landed hardest. Musgrove told the jury that in

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December of twenty twenty two, about a month before the

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children died, she was standing in the kitchen with her

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daughter and her son in law, and Lindsey told them

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both that she was having thoughts of harming the children.

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She said it out loud to her mother and her

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husband a month ahead of time. Now the Commonwealth is

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going to use that. They will argue that a woman

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who can identify the thought, articulate the thought, and warn

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her family about the thought is a woman who understands

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the difference between right and wrong. That is a real argument,

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and I am not going to pretend it isn't. But

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the defense is going to use the exact same sentence.

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And here is how she told them. She told her mother,

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she told her husband, and over the preceding months, she

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told a psychiatrist, a nurse practitioner, a mental health counselor,

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and a five day in patient program at McLain Hospital.

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She raised her hand over and over again, and in

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January she was still sick, still medicated, still spiraling, and

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three children were still in that house. That is the

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argument Reddington is making, and it is not a small one.

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Monday afternoon, the defense called its first expert, doctor Michael Wulfovich,

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an emergency physician at Newton Wellesley Hospital who did not

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treat Clancy but reviewed her records. He described what came

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into the hospital that night. She was unresponsive and not

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speaking intelligibly. Doctors were worried she could not breathe on

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her own and intubated her. She was severely hypothermic. She

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had multiple fractures in her neck and mid back. After

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she was moved to Brigham and Women's, she went into

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full cardiac arrest and needed two rounds of CPR. He

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testified that her injuries were consistent with self injurious behavior

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and then asked about what she meant to do. He

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said this, and I quote Boston Dot COM's account of

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it the intent. I can't gauge that matters because prosecutors

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have spent this trial suggesting her suicide attempt was not serious.

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Two rounds of CPR says otherwise. The Commonwealth did not

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cross examine him at all. Tuesday morning, the defense called

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Susan Clancy, Patrick's mother, a nurse practitioner in labor and

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delivery at south Shore Hospital for thirty eight years. She

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testified that in the fall of twenty twenty two, her

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daughter in law came to her and that she was

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quote begging for help. She said Lindsay described insomnia, loss

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of appetite, deep anxiety, and sadness, and Susan Clancy did

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the thing a nurse does. She got her into a program.

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She referred her to South Shore's Perinatal Behavioral Health Program,

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the program built specifically for mothers in exactly that situation.

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She also described Lindsay as nurturing, loving, a wonderful mother

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who loved all three of her children very much. On

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cross prosecutors made a point of establishing that the children

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never came to her house for sleepovers, that the family

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thought it was best for the kids to stay in

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their own home. And that when help was needed, Lindsay's

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parents came to them. After Susan Clancy stepped down, the

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defense moved to a forensic expert, doctor Michael Lapisada, and

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immediately ran into a fight. Reddington had diagrams showing how

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his client landed and the injuries that followed, including a

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fracture at the top of the spine. Prosecutors objected that

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the drawings put the window well in the wrong place.

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Reddington said the measurements were taken and the drawings are accurate,

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and that being off by a few inches does not

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change anything. That was the state of play as we

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went to record. One more thing you should know because

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it is going to shape how this verdict gets received,

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no matter which way it goes. Court TV reports that

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an online fundraiser started by a TikTok user for Lindsay

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Clancy's parents has pulled in more than eight hundred thousand

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dollars with a stated goal of two million, and across

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social media, the sentiment has run heavily in her favor,

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with a fair amount of it aimed at the prosecutors.

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I want to be careful here. Nobody on the internet

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has sat in that courtroom for four weeks. Nobody on

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the Internet has seen the autopsy photographs. The jury has seen.

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Twelve people in Plymouth are going to decide this, and

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they are going to decide it on evidence and on

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a jury instruction about criminal responsibility, not on a hashtag.

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And whichever way it goes. Understand what an acquittal here

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actually means. If this jury finds Lindsey Clancy not criminally responsible,

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she does not walk out the door. She goes to

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a state psychiatric hospital, and she comes up for periodic review,

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potentially for the rest of her life. That is the

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outcome the defense is fighting for, not freedom, a hospital

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instead of a prison. Cora Dawson Callen five three and

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eight months old. Someone has to say their names. Tupakamaru

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Shakur was twenty five years old. He was a rapper,

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an actor, a poet, a man whose work took on

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social justice and street life and what it meant to

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be a black man in America, and thirty years after

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his death, he is still one of the most influential

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artists this country has produced. On the night of September seventh,

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nineteen ninety six, he was in Las Vegas for a

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Mike Tyson Fight.

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He was in the passenger seat of a.

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Black BMW driven by Marion suge Knight, the head of

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death Row Records. They stopped at a light near the show.

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A white Cadillac pulled up alongside them, and someone inside

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started shooting. Shakur was hit multiple times. He died in

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the hospital six days later on September thirteenth, and then

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for twenty seven years nothing, no charges, nobody. Dwayne Keith Davis,

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known as KEFID, sixty three years old, was indicted in

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twenty twenty three. He is the first and only person

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ever charged in this killing. He is pleaded not guilty,

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and on Monday morning in a Clark County courtroom in

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downtown Las Vegas, this case finally got in front of

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a jury. Let me be precise about the charge, because

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outlets have described it different ways. Davis is charged with

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murder with a deadly weapon with a gang related enhancement.

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Prosecutors are not saying he pulled the trigger.

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Their theory is that he supplied the gun and directed

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the shooting from the front seat of that Cadillac. Chief

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Deputy District Attorney Binu Palal told the jury this was,

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in his words, act of revenge. Hours earlier, that same night,

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Shakur and members of his entourage had beaten Davis's nephew,

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Orlando Anderson at the MGM. Grand prosecutors say what followed

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was retaliation and that the jury is going to hear

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about it from Davis himself because for two and a

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half decades, Davis has talked. He talked to a task

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00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.720
force in two thousand and eight, he talked to BET

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00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.639
on camera in twenty eighteen, and in twenty nineteen he

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published a memoir describing that night in detail. The defense

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position is exactly what you would expect, and it is

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not a weak one. Attorney Michael samp told jurors that

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what the state is calling fact is really fiction. Quoted

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00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:48.919
by NPR, he said, flatly, there's no facts. His argument

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is that Davis was never charged for all those years

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because investigators knew what he was saying was not reliable.

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He argued the book was written to make money, that

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a co writer may have penned most of it, and

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00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:03.519
he pointed at missing documents in the original investigation and

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00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:07.240
at distrust between police departments. And then the state started

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00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.840
calling witnesses, and this is where you feel the thirty years.

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The first witness was Gary Dale, who spent twenty five

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00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.200
years with Las Vegas Metro and was working the bike

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00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:20.480
team that night. He testified that before the shooting he

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00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.080
stopped a black BMW because it had no visible license plate,

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that the two men inside identified themselves as Tupac Shakur

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and Suge Night, and that he told them to put

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the plate back on and let them go. He never

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wrote a report about it. Later that night he heard

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00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.320
the shots fired call and responded, and he wrote in

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00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:44.200
the ambulance with a wounded Tupac Shakur. He testified that

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when he asked who had done it, Shakur told him, quote,

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00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.240
we'll take care of it. That is a twenty five

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00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.879
year old man shot four times, telling a police officer

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00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.279
that this would be handled outside the system. Six days

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00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.679
later he was dead, and for thirty years he was right.

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00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:06.399
Nobody handled it. The second witness was Ingrid Stokes, who

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00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:09.360
was in the car directly ahead of the BMW on

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00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:11.759
her way with friends to the same club Shakur and

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Night were headed to. She described the sound of the

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00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.559
gunfire on cross soft asked whether anyone in her car

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00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.519
had been yelling Tupac's name, and she said no. She

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00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.080
said Knight, and Shakur looked relaxed, that Shakur was not

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hanging out the window, that there was no crowd around

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the car, and then something happened that you do not

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00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.840
see in most states. A juror submitted a written question,

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which Nevada allows after cross examination, asking Stokes whether she

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could tell which direction the shots came from.

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She said no.

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The third witness was retired Metro homicide detective Brent Becker,

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00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.000
who testified by video for close to two hours and

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00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.879
whose testimony is the most damning thing in this trial

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00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.080
so far, but not about Dwayne Davis. It is about

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the investigation. Becker testified that he was called to the

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scene the day after the shooting before Shakur had even died,

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which he described as unusual because homicide did not get

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00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.480
called out unless there was a body. He said he

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00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.120
began locking his case files in his desk and putting

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00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:14.600
records on a floppy disk instead of sending them to

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00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.200
the records department because he believed information was leaking and

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00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.720
he had come back to find things on his desk moved.

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00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.799
He testified that everyone connected to this crime was in California,

283
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.279
and that he made ten or twelve trips out there

284
00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.279
trying to talk to people, and every time he tried

285
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:34.279
death row records, he got the run around, and souge Knight,

286
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.840
who was in the car, who was himself shot that night,

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00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.840
and who was on paper the victim of an attempted murder,

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did not come in. Becker testified it took several days

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00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.440
that night, missed at least one scheduled interview, and that

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00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.960
when he finally showed up, he brought three attorneys with him.

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Becker told the jury he believed Knight was not telling

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00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:57.320
the truth and knew nothing useful. There is a playbook

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00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.720
for this, not for the shooting, for what came after.

294
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Everybody who could have solved this in nineteen ninety six

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00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.759
had a reason not to talk to the police, and

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00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.240
the police had reason not to trust each other. And

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00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:11.759
thirty years went by and three of the four men

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00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:16.200
in that cadillac died. The final witness Monday was Fred Miller,

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00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.119
a retired LAPD investigator who was assigned in nineteen ninety

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00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.400
seven to the murder of Christopher Wallace, the rapper known

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00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.480
as the Notorious Big who was shot and killed in

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00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:31.079
Los Angeles, six months after Shakor Miller had received information

303
00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.400
that Davis might be a suspect in that case. Jurors

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00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:37.079
heard a forty minute recorded interview between the two men

305
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.359
and saw a polaroid photograph of Davis and Orlando Anderson

306
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:42.359
that was found in the trunk of a Chevrolet and

307
00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.880
Paula in Compton during that investigation. Here is the part

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00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.359
that matters, and I want to be very clear about it,

309
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.559
because it is easy to hear that testimony and draw

310
00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:55.599
a conclusion that the court has specifically told the jury

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00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:59.119
not to draw. Davis was never charged in the killing

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00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.200
of Christopher Waller, and with prosecutors agreeing, the judge instructed

313
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:06.079
the jury directly that police do not believe Davis was

314
00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:09.960
involved in that murder. Court adjourned Monday afternoon and resumed

315
00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.960
Tuesday morning. Prosecutors have signaled they intend to call somewhere

316
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.720
between thirty five and forty five witnesses, and this trial

317
00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:22.480
is expected to run about a month. Tupac's sister, Sakiwa Shakur,

318
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.519
sat in the gallery Monday with other members of the family.

319
00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.759
Asked afterward what the day had been like, she said

320
00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.079
it was a lot of information to take in thirty years.

321
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.960
That family has been waiting thirty years to hear. A

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00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:39.559
witness sworn in Tupac Shakur was twenty five. Someone has

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00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:52.680
to say his name. Brian Thompson was fifty years old.

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00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:56.039
He was the chief executive of United Healthcare. He lived

325
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.200
in Maple Grove, Minnesota, and he had two teenage sons.

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00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.720
On the morning of December fourth, twenty twenty four, he

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00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.319
was walking to his company's investor conference in midtown Manhattan

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00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.799
when he was shot from behind on a public sidewalk

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00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:11.880
last Friday, in a federal court room in Manhattan, with

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00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.279
Thompson's mother and his wife sitting in the front row,

331
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:20.119
Luigi Mangoni pleaded guilty two federal stalking counts, interstate stalking

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00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:24.519
resulting in death and stalking through interstate facilities resulting in death.

333
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.160
He admitted following Thompson to that conference, and he said

334
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:32.279
in open court quote, I shot mister Thompson in Manhattan.

335
00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.400
And he died nine words.

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00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:39.960
After nearly two years of a national argument about this case,

337
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:41.880
the man at the center of it stood up and

338
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:46.279
said it out loud. Federal sentencing is set for December eighteenth,

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00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:50.359
prosecutors say they will seek life. The federal guidelines for

340
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.319
what they are worth call for something in the range

341
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.359
of twenty four to thirty years. And here is where

342
00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.880
it gets legally interesting, because Mangoni also faces a step

343
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.880
at state murder prosecution in Manhattan, brought by District Attorney

344
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:08.000
Alvin Bragg second degree murder and weapons charges. He is

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00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.119
pleaded not guilty to those That trial was supposed to

346
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.519
start on September eighth. It is not starting on September eighth.

347
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.079
The moment that federal plea was entered, Man Jones lawyers

348
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.440
filed to have the state case thrown out on double

349
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:24.400
jeopardy and due process grounds, and on Monday, Judge Gregory

350
00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.079
Carro issued an order giving Bragg's office until October ninth

351
00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:31.880
to respond and setting a hearing for December tenth, that

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00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:35.119
is eight days before MANGEONI is sentenced in federal court.

353
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Now.

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00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.079
I want to be careful with the language here, because

355
00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:42.319
different outlets have framed this differently. The Associated Press describes

356
00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:47.240
the trial as canceled and postponed indefinitely. CNN's rid is

357
00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.440
more technical, that the order does not formally adjourn the trial,

358
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:52.880
but that it cannot go forward until the judge rules

359
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.559
the practical effect is the same. There is no September

360
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:01.240
murder trial, so double jeopardy. You have heard the phrase

361
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:03.519
your whole life, and most of what you have heard

362
00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:07.599
about it is wrong. Under the federal Constitution, the states

363
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.359
and the federal government are separate sovereigns, and being prosecuted

364
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.839
by both for the same conduct is generally allowed. If

365
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.400
this were happening in most states, the state case would

366
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.160
simply proceed, But New York is not most states. New

367
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.519
York has written into its own statute some of the

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00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.960
strongest protections in the country against exactly this. A state

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00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.960
prosecution here can be barred when a federal case arising

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00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.000
out of the same criminal transaction ends in a guilty plea,

371
00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.519
or once a federal jury is sworn. Mangioni's lawyers are

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00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.160
arguing that the conduct is the same conduct. Their filing

373
00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.440
says the stalking offense and the murder are coterminous, that

374
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.039
traveling from out of state to be at that corner

375
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:51.079
at that hour does not somehow separate the stalking from

376
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.160
the killing, that it is all one criminal transaction. They

377
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.920
have described their client as a pawn caught between two

378
00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:02.839
prosecutors' offices. Office says no. Their position is that the

379
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.759
state charges involve different legal elements and different conduct, and

380
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.799
one of their stated reasons for fighting is straightforward. Nobody

381
00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:14.000
knows yet what sentence the federal judge is going to impose,

382
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:17.920
and there is a real legal answer here, not just

383
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:22.359
a rhetorical one. New York statute carves out exceptions, including

384
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.559
where the two offenses have substantially different elements, or where

385
00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.119
they are aimed at preventing very different kinds of harm.

386
00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:34.160
Bennett Gershman, a law professor at PACE, told Reuters he

387
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:37.359
thinks it is unlikely the case gets dismissed on these grounds,

388
00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.799
and his reasoning is clean. Federal stocking requires an intent

389
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.279
to kill, but does not require that anybody actually die.

390
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.079
Murder requires a death. Those are not the same elements.

391
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.480
I think that is probably right, But I also think

392
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.160
Mangioni's lawyers are making a serious argument, not a stunt.

393
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.240
And however, Judge Kara rules the losing side appeals, so

394
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.039
we are potentially a long way from finished. Here's what

395
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.079
actually bothers me about all of this. For twenty months,

396
00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.039
this case has been a national Rorschach Test, there were sweatshirts,

397
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.599
there were fan accounts, There were people treating an assassination

398
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.079
on a Manhattan sidewalk as some kind of opening salvo

399
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.079
in a debate about health insurance. And there is a

400
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.799
real debate to be had about health insurance in this country,

401
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:26.480
and it is an important one, and none of it

402
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.880
was ever going to be settled by shooting a man

403
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:31.519
in the back on his way to work. Brian Thompson's

404
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:34.079
family put out a statement after that plea, calling it,

405
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:39.359
in their words, an important step toward justice. They also

406
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:42.519
noted that proceedings in New York and Pennsylvania are still

407
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.000
ahead of them and that they intend to keep going,

408
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.000
which means this family gets to do this again and

409
00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:53.519
possibly again after that. They have a federal sentencing in December,

410
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.720
a state case in Limbo, and a third case in Pennsylvania,

411
00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:59.599
and every single one of those hearings is another day

412
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.000
where they sit in a courtroom and hear their husband

413
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:05.400
and father described as a target. Nobody was paying attention

414
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:08.839
to him, not really. There was an enormous amount of

415
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:11.319
attention paid to this case, and almost none of it

416
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:13.839
landed on the fifty year old man on the sidewalk

417
00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:15.359
with two teenage sons at home.

418
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.160
Brian Thompson. Someone has to say his name.

419
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.440
Three cases, three courtrooms, and every one of them turning

420
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.799
on the same question in a different costume. What does

421
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:33.400
the law actually require before it can hold a person responsible?

422
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.960
In Plymouth, it is whether a sick woman can be

423
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.200
In Las Vegas, it is whether a thirty year old

424
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:43.440
confession is enough to prove it. In Manhattan, it is

425
00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:46.039
whether one guilty plea is enough to close the door

426
00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.519
on everybody else's case. We will be back tomorrow with

427
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:53.640
all three. Before you go, If this episode was useful

428
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.960
to you, do me a favor and think of one

429
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.480
specific person who would want to hear it, Not everybody.

430
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.960
One person, the friend who has been following the Clancy trial,

431
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:06.599
the person in your life who grew up on Tupac,

432
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:10.799
the coworker who will not stop talking about the Mangoni case.

433
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.079
Send it to them that one message does more for

434
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:17.079
this show than anything else you could do. And if

435
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:20.279
you are listening on Spotify, drop a comment. I rid

436
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:23.200
them and they shape what we cover. I'm Garrett Fisher.

437
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:28.240
Take care of each other. A note on sources and standards.

438
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:32.200
This episode was assembled from courtroom reporting by Court TV,

439
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:37.400
Boston twenty five News, The Boston Globe, Boston dot Com, CNN,

440
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:43.519
The Associated Press, NPR, CBS News, ABC News, Reuters, and

441
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:46.880
the Las Vegas Review Journal, along with courtroom feeds from

442
00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:48.079
all three proceedings.

443
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:50.839
Several matters require disclosure.

444
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.680
In the Clancy trial, Tuesday session in Plymouth was still

445
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:58.279
underway when this episode was recorded, and testimony after the

446
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:02.319
mid morning break is not reflected here. One published account

447
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:05.799
of Monday's testimony dated the children's debts to January twenty

448
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:09.839
twenty two. The correct date, confirmed across all other reporting

449
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:13.720
and court records is January twenty fourth, twenty twenty three.

450
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:17.640
Accounts also vary on whether Susan Clancy referred her daughter

451
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:20.559
in law to the perinatal program or connected her to

452
00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:23.640
it through another provider, and Lindsey Clancy's age has been

453
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.359
reported as both thirty five and thirty six, depending on

454
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:30.920
the outlet and the date of publication. In the Las

455
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:35.319
Vegas case, coverage has described Dwayne Davis's charge variously as

456
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.160
one count of murder with a deadly weapon and as

457
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:41.079
first degree murder with a deadly weapon with intent to

458
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:45.720
promote or assist a criminal gang. These describe the same indictment,

459
00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:50.079
with differing degrees of specificity. Some published accounts have also

460
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:53.880
stated that the trial began on August tenth. Jury selection

461
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:59.640
began August tenth. Opening statements were Monday, August seventeen. At

462
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:02.880
least the one published account misdated the shooting to February

463
00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:04.279
of nineteen ninety six.

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It occurred on September seven.

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This episode does not repeat claims made in Dwayne Davis's

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memoir regarding other individuals who have never been charged in

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connection with this case, including allegations involving a name music

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executive who has publicly denied any involvement. Those claims are contested.

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They originate with the defendant himself, and the defendant's own

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attorney has told this jury the book is unreliable. Dwayne

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Davis has pleaded not guilty and is presumed innocent. Lindsey

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Clancy has pleaded not guilty, and the question of her

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criminal responsibility is for the jury alone. Luigi Mangione has

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pleaded guilty in the federal case and has pleaded not

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guilty in the state case, which remains pending. Nothing in

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this episode should be taken as a prediction of any outcome.

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This episode discusses postpart of mental illness, suicide, and the.

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Deaths of children.

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If you are struggling, the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline

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is free, confidential and available at all hours by call

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or text at one eight three three.

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T LC m A m A.

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If you are someone you know as having thoughts of suicide,

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caller text nine eight eight