Labor Day Family Massacre: Day 2 "JOHN LIST: 18 Years of Freedom After Killing Everyone at the Dinner Table"

0:00 Warning. This special episode contains graphic descriptions of family murders, including violence against children and pregnant women. The content includes detailed forensic evidence and disturbing testimony from actual cases. This material may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is strongly advised. Calarugashock Media. Good Morning, I'm read Carter. Sunday, August thirty first, twenty twenty five, day two of our Labor Day Family Massacre. While you're at church this Sunday, let me tell you about John List, a devout Lutheran who decided the Christian thing to do was execute his entire family rather than let them face poverty. November ninth, nineteen seventy one, Westfield, New Jersey. List shot his wife in the kitchen while she drank coffee, shot his mother in her apartment upstairs, then waited for his children to come home from school and shot them one by one as they walked through the door. He arranged their bodies in the mansions ballroom, left classical music playing on the intercom, and disappeared for eighteen years because, in John Lyst's mind sending his family to heaven with bullets was better than admitting he'd failed as a provider. This is celebrity trials.

1:37 Let's start with what John List was supposed to be versus what he actually was on paper. John Emil List was the American dream. World War II veteran, Korean War veteran, University of Michigan graduate and business administration married to Helen, a beautiful widow with a daughter. Three children total, Patricia sixteen, John Junior fifteen, Frederick thirteen. They lived in a nineteen room Victorian mansion called Breeze Knoll in Westfield, New Jersey. The mansion had a ballroom, a ballroom, folks, stained glass windows, multiple fireplaces, the kind of house that said we've made it, except they hadn't. By nineteen seventy one, John List was drowning.

2:21 He'd been fired from his job as a bank vice president, then fired from his job as an insurance salesman. His mother, Alma, lived upstairs and constantly criticized him. His wife, Helen had become an alcoholic, probably because she was married to John List. His daughter Patricia was pursuing acting, which his Lutheran sensibilities found sinful. His sons were struggling in school, and the bills my God the bills. The mansion cost a fortune to heat. The property taxes were crushing. Helen refused to economize. She kept spending like they were rich while they were months from bankruptcy. Later said he'd steal money from his mother to pay bills. He'd skip mortgage payments, he was kiting checks. The house of cards was collapsing. But here's the thing about John List. He was obsessed with appearances, with control, with being seen as the successful provider. He'd rather die than admit failure. Actually strike that he'd rather his family die than admit failure. By October nineteen seventy one, Liszt had made his decision. If he couldn't provide for his family in life, he'd provide for them in death.

3:35 Send them to heaven before they could be corrupted by poverty, save their souls by destroying their bodies. He spent weeks planning, made multiple trips to different stores to buy ammunition so no one would notice, practiced his marksmanship at a gun range, researched which funeral homes had the best rates. This wasn't a snap decision. This was premeditated murder disguised as religious mercy. November ninth, nineteen seventy one started like any other day in the List house. The kids went to school, Helen had her morning coffee. Alma listened to the radio in her upstairs apartment. John List had already written an eighteen page confession letter to his pastor, already canceled the newspaper delivery, already told the schools his family was visiting Helen's sick mother in North Carolina. At nine am, Helen List was sitting at the kitchen table in her nightgown, drinking coffee.

4:33 John walked up behind her and shot her in the side of the head with his nine millimeter Stire automatic. She died instantly, slumping over her coffee cup. He dragged her body to the ballroom laid her on a sleeping bag. The ballroom folks, the symbol of their supposed success, became their morgue. Next, he climbed the stairs to his mother's apartment. Alma List, eighty four years old, was in her kitchen. He shot her in the head. She fell to the floor. He left her there, too heavy to drag to the ballroom. Then he waited. This is the part that proves John Lists evil. He didn't snap. He didn't lose control. He made lunch, He cleaned the kitchen where he'd murdered his wife.

5:19 He prepared for his children to come home. Patricia got home first around three point thirty. She walked through the door, probably calling out for her mother. John shot her in the jaw. The bullet didn't kill her immediately, so he shot her again in the head. He dragged her to the ballroom, placed her next to her mother. Frederick came home next same routine. Walked through the door, bullet to the head, dragged to the ballroom. John Junior had a soccer game after school. List drove to watch his son play. Sat in the stands like any other father, knowing he was about to murder this boy, watching him run and laugh with his teammates for the last time. After the game, they drove home together, father and son, talking about the game.

6:07 John Junior had no idea he was riding with his family's executioner. When they got home, Lisz told his son to go to the basement. As John Junior walked down the stairs, his father shot him multiple times in the back and head. The boy tried to fight, there were defensive wounds. He crawled toward the door, his father kept shooting. It took multiple bullets to kill John Junior, because, unlike the others, he saw it coming. Liz dragged his son's body to the ballroom, arranged all the bodies on sleeping bags, placed their arms across their chests like they were sleeping, put paper towels over their faces. Then he turned on the intercom system and played classical music throughout the house, turned the heat down to fifty degrees to slow decomposition, left lights on in every room to make it look like the family was home and John List. He ate dinner, slept in that house with five corpses, woke up the next morning, made breakfast, and drove away forever. Before we talk about lists eighteen years of freedom, we need to talk about the letter. John List left an eighteen page confession for his pastor, Eugene Rowinkle. This wasn't a suicide note.

7:27 List never planned to kill himself. Too much of a coward. This was his justification for mass murder. Some highlights from this manifesto of madness. I know that what I've done is wrong, but at least I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now. If things had continued as they were, this would not have been the case. He was saving their souls. You see murder as missionary work. I'm sure many will say, how could anyone do such a horrible thing. My only answer is it isn't easy, and I'm only concerned with making my peace with God, not concerned with his dead family, just his own salvation. Ps mother is in the hallway in the attic. She was too heavy to move his own mother, and she's a ps an afterthought, too heavy to drag to his staged funeral scene. List also left detailed instructions about the house, the mortgage, the bills.

8:22 He was more concerned about utility payments than the five people he'd murdered. Then John List disappeared. He destroyed all photos of himself except one, a portrait from his high school yearbook, drove his car to JFK Airport and abandoned it, then vanished into America. For a month, nobody knew the Lists were dead. The lights blazed in the empty mansion, the classical music played to corpses. The neighbors thought they were on an extended vacation. Finally, on December seventh, Patricia's drama coach got suspicious the family had been gone too long. He called the police. What they found in that ballroom haunts investigators to this day. Five bodies in advanced decomposition, The paper towels on their faces had been eaten through by fluids. The sleeping bags were soaked with decay, the classical music still playing through the intercom. The manhunt began immediately, but John List had a month's head start and a new identity. He became Robert Peter Clark, moved to Denver, got a job as an accountant, joined a Lutheran church because, of course he did, and in nineteen eighty five he remarried a woman named Dolores Miller, who had no idea she was marrying a family annihilator. For eighteen years, John List lived as Bob Clark, went to church every Sunday, had dinner parties, filed taxes, made love to his new wife in a bed paid for by his family's blood. Meanwhile, in Westfield, the List mansion became infamous. Local kids called

9:55 it the murder House. It was eventually destroyed by fire in nineteen seventy ten. Two arson suspected but never proved. Like the house itself, couldn't stand being stained with that much blood. We'll be right back with how America's Most Wanted finally caught John List and his incredible claim that God had forgiven him, so the courts should too. For eighteen years, John List was a ghost. The FBI had him on their most Wanted list, but every lead went nowhere.

10:37 His family was buried, the mansion was ashes, and their killer was living his best life in Colorado. Enter America's Most Wanted in John Walsh. In nineteen eighty nine. The show decided to feature the List case, but they had a problem. Only one old photo existed, so they hired forensic artist Frank Bender to create an age progressed sculpture of what List might look like. Eighteen years later, Bender studied List's personality, realized he was vain, meticulous, obsessive about appearance. Figured he'd still wear glasses, still part his hair the same way, probably have a receding hairline. The bust he created was eerie in its accuracy. May twenty first, nineteen eighty nine. The episode aired. Eleven days later, a woman in Colorado was watching a rerun and froze that bust looked exactly like her neighbor Bob Clark. She called the FBI.

11:35 June first, nineteen eighty nine, FBI agents knocked on Bob Clark's door in mid Lothian, Virginia. He'd moved from Denver, he answered calmly. They asked, are you John List? I am Robert Clark, he replied. They fingerprinted him it was List. His wife, Dolores, was devastated. She'd been married to a family killer for four years and never knew he'd told her his first wife died of cancer, that his children died in a car accident. She'd been sleeping next to a man who executed five people. List's arrest made national news. The mild mannered accountant who'd been hiding in plain sight, the church going murderer who'd fooled everyone. At his trial in nineteen ninety, List's defense was incredible, not guilty by reason of diminished capacity. His lawyer argued he'd suffered from obsessive compulsive disorder, that his fear of poverty was a mental illness. List himself testified, and folks, this is where you see the true narcissist. He showed no remorse, none.

12:37 He talked about the murders like they were accounting errors. When asked why he didn't just kill himself instead, List said, suicide is a sin. I would have gone to hell. But murdering your entire family, that's fine. God will forgive that, but not suicide the logic of a lunatic. The prosecution presented List's meticulous planningultiple ammunition purchases, the practice at the gun range, the eighteen page letter, the month long preparation. This wasn't diminished capacity. This was calculated execution. The jury deliberated for nine hours. Guilty on five counts of first degree murder. Judge William Lee Wurheimer sentenced him to five consecutive life terms, saying John List is without remorse and without honor. He saw himself as the victim. List served his time at New Jersey State Prison. He gave interviews where he maintained God had forgiven him, wrote letters to his second wife asking for commissary money, never once expressed genuine regret for murdering his family. John Lyst died in prison on March twenty first, two thousand and eight, pneumonia.

13:54 He was eighty two years old. He'd lived thirty seven years after murdering his family. Thirty seven years they didn't get. But before we close, let's talk about what John List really was. Because he spent decades painting himself as a religious man driven to desperate measures by circumstances. Bullshit. John List was a narcissist who couldn't handle failure. His identity was so wrapped up in being the successful provider that he'd rather kill his family than admit he couldn't afford the lifestyle. Think about the staging in that ballroom, bodies arranged like they were sleeping, classical music playing. This wasn't about sending them to heaven. It was about control.

14:37 Even in death. He was arranging them to his specifications. The eighteen page letter wasn't a confession, It was a justification. He wanted his pastor to understand, to forgive, to see him as a martyr, not a murderer. And the eighteen years of freedom. He never tried to turn himself in, never sent money to help with his family's bear never showed actual remorse. He just started over like they never existed. His second wife, Dolores, said he was a wonderful husband, gentle kind went to church every Sunday, which means John List could turn his humanity on and off like a light switch. He chose to be a monster to his first family. Here's what really happened in that Westfield mansion.

15:25 Helen List was drinking her morning coffee when her husband executed her because she spent too much money. Alma List, an eighty four year old woman, was murdered by her own son because she was a financial burden. Patricia List, sixteen, who wanted to be an actress, was shot in the face because her father found her dreams sinful. Frederick List thirteen was murdered walking through his front door because his father thought poverty was worse than death. John Junior, fifteen fought for his life in that basement, crawled toward escape. His father shot him repeatedly in the back because the boy wouldn't die quietly like the others. Five people who trusted John List, five people who loved him, Five people he executed because his ego couldn't handle being poor. The List mansion is gone, now burned to the ground. Urban legend says it was haunted that you could hear classical music playing from the ruins. That's nonsense, of course. The only ghost in that house was John List himself a hollow man pretending to have a soul. But here's the lesson of John List. Evil doesn't always look evil. It looks like your accountant, your neighbor, the guy in the next pew at church. List sat next to people for eighteen years who had no idea they were befriending a family annihilator. He dated Dolores for years before marriage. She never suspected. He was in book clubs, church groups, community organizations.

16:55 Nobody knew because John List had perfected the mask. The mild mannered, religious, boring accountant behind it was a man capable of shooting his children as they came home from school this Labor Day weekend. While you're with your family, Remember that John List seemed normal too. Went to his son's soccer game, knowing he was about to murder him, made breakfast in a kitchen where he'd shot his wife, slept in a house with five corpses, then lived another life for eighteen years like it never happened. The capacity for this kind of evil lives in more people than we want to admit. They sit in boardrooms and pews and pta meetings. They coach Little League and lead Scout troops, and sometimes when their carefully constructed identity cracks, they choose murder over humiliation. John List killed his family because he couldn't face being seen as a failure. He thought God would forgive him. Maybe God did, but Patty, John Junior, Frederick Helen, and Alma List are still dead. Their last moments were betrayal by the man who should have protected them and John List. He died in his prison bed at eighty two degrees fahrenheit Federal, cared for by medical staff, more mercy than he showed his mother, more comfort than he gave his children, more peace than he granted his wife.

18:16 That's not justice. That's just the best we could do after eighteen years of failure. That's Celebrity Trials. For Sunday, August thirty first, Tomorrow, Labor Day, we conclude our Family Massacre series with Jeffrey MacDonald, the Green Beret doctor who blamed hippies for stabbing his pregnant wife and two daughters at Fort Bragg Acid is groovy? Kill the pigs? Written in blood? Charles Manson copycats he claimed the evidence said otherwise, I'm red Carter. While you're at your family gathering tomorrow Remember John List, Remember that he sat at family dinners for years planning their murders. Remember that financial pressure and wounded pride can turn providers into executioners. Eighteen years of freedom for five murders. Sometimes the system doesn't just fail, it completely collapses.

19:10 We'll see you tomorrow.