July 1, 2026

CROWN V COLONY — The Man Who Killed for Company: How Dennis Nilsen Murdered Lonely Men Until the Drains Gave Him Up

Show Notes
Transcript

Day three of CROWN V COLONY. Garret Fisher trades the House of Horrors for something quieter and somehow worse: a soft-spoken Scottish civil servant in a north London attic. Between 1978 and 1983, Dennis Nilsen — the "Muswell Hill Murderer" — lured at least fifteen lonely young men back to his flat and killed them, he said, so they could never leave him. He kept the remains at home. He got away with it for five years for one reason: he hunted men the world wasn't watching — the homeless, the drifting, the marginalized — and when survivors escaped and tried to report him, a homophobic era refused to believe them. It ended only when the drains at 23 Cranley Gardens backed up and a plumber found human remains. This episode traces who Nilsen was, the men he killed — including 14-year-old first victim Stephen Holmes and several who have never been identified to this day — and the survivors, Douglas Stewart, Paul Nobbs, and Carl Stottor, who finally took the witness stand at his 1983 Old Bailey trial and were believed. Nilsen was convicted of six murders and two attempted murders, given a whole-life order, and died in prison in 2018.

Join our new FB groups page here. Take the poll!

Join the Daily Crime & Justice community on social media! We're building a passionate group of true crime enthusiasts who love diving deep into the most shocking cases in America.
Follow us on Facebook and Instagram by searching "Daily Crime & Justice" on either platform.

You'll get exclusive behind-the-scenes content, breaking news updates on cases we're covering, and early alerts when new episodes drop. Our social media is where Garret Fisher's hottest takes live, including reactions that don't make it into the show.

But more importantly, it's where YOU come in. Share your theories, debate the verdicts, and connect with fellow listeners who are just as obsessed with justice as you are. Did the jury get it right? What questions do you still have? Your comments and insights often shape future episodes.

We cover the trials that matter, but our community makes the conversation unforgettable. Come for Garret's signature cynical commentary, stay for the incredible discussions with thousands of true crime fans who get it.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:13.439
Caalaroga Shark Media. Good morning, It's Wednesday, July first, and

2
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:16.879
this is Daily Crime and Justice. I'm Garrett Fisher and

3
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:20.359
this is day three of Crown Versus Colony, our Independence

4
00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:23.120
Day week, putting the United Kingdom's worst on the stand.

5
00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.320
Yesterday we were in a house of horrors with two

6
00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.640
killers and a buried graveyard. Today there's only one man,

7
00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:33.439
and at first glance, he is the least frightening person

8
00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:37.679
you could imagine. A quiet, tidy, soft spoken civil servant

9
00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:40.520
who went to work in an office, paid his taxes,

10
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.520
fed his dog, and spoke up for workers' rights at

11
00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.600
his union meetings. And in his spare time in a

12
00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:49.960
small flat in North London, he murdered young men, one

13
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.240
after another for years and nobody came. That's the part

14
00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.520
of this one that has always chilled me, not the blood,

15
00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:01.520
the silence. In early Febus of nineteen eighty three, the

16
00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:04.000
tenants of a house at twenty three Cranley Gardens in

17
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:08.599
Muswell Hill, North London, had a very ordinary complaint. The

18
00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.280
drains were blocked, the toilets wouldn't flush properly, and there

19
00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:15.480
was a smell. So the landlord did what anyone would do.

20
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.959
He called a drain company, Dino Rod, and on the

21
00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.480
evening of February the eighth, an engineer named Michael Catrin

22
00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.200
came out and lifted a manhole cover at the side

23
00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.439
of the house. What he found down there was a gray,

24
00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:33.079
fleshy sludge packed with small bones. He didn't have the

25
00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:35.959
science to be certain, but he had a gut feeling,

26
00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:40.319
and his gut said that material was human. He was right.

27
00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:43.719
The next morning the police came and up in the

28
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.159
attic flat at the top of that house lived a

29
00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:49.959
thirty seven year old civil servant named Dennis Nielsen, who,

30
00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:53.000
when the officers confronted him, calmly told them there was

31
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:55.760
more in a wardrobe and that he'd explain everything at

32
00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.560
the station. In the police car on the way there,

33
00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:01.239
a detective asked him whether the remains belonged to one

34
00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.599
person or two. Nielsen looked out the window and answered

35
00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:09.199
fifteen or sixteen. He said, since nineteen seventy eight, this

36
00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:11.879
is his story, but more than that, it's the story

37
00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:14.039
of the men He counted off like that in a

38
00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:23.240
car window as a number. The Quietest Monster. Dennis Nilsen

39
00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.759
was Scottish born in a fishing town up in the

40
00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:28.719
northeast of Scotland. He served in the Army for over

41
00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:32.680
a decade, cooked in the catering corps, learned, among other things,

42
00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:36.159
how to butcher meat. After the Army, he had a

43
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:38.800
brief stint as a police officer, and then he settled

44
00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:42.719
into the most ordinary job imaginable. He became a civil

45
00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:45.879
servant in a London job center, the office where unemployed

46
00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.840
people go to look for work. He was, by every account,

47
00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:51.560
good at it. He cared about the underdog. He was

48
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.120
an active trade unionist who would stand up in meetings

49
00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:56.599
and argue for the rights of the lowest paid workers.

50
00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:59.599
And I want you to sit with that contradiction, because

51
00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:02.879
it's the whole horror of this case. By day, he

52
00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.960
was the man at the desk, helping societies overlooked find

53
00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.800
a foothold. By night, those same overlooked people, the unemployed,

54
00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:14.400
the homeless, the drifting young men with nobody checking on

55
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:18.199
them were exactly who he hunted. He saw who the

56
00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:21.560
world wasn't watching better than almost anyone, because watching them

57
00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.479
was literally his job, and he turned that knowledge into

58
00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:30.599
a weapon. He lived alone. He was profoundly, achingly lonely,

59
00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:35.000
the kind of lonely that most people just survive. Nielsen

60
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:37.560
did not just survive it. He let it curdle into

61
00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:41.639
something monstrous. And that brings us to the question everyone

62
00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:45.719
asked about him. Why why kill men? He had no

63
00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:48.560
grudge against men, He'd often only just met in a

64
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:53.199
pub an hour before company. His own answer, as much

65
00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:55.879
as he ever gave one, was almost too sad and

66
00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:59.400
too sick to repeat. He killed them, he said, so

67
00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:03.000
they wouldn't. He would meet a young man, often someone

68
00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:06.680
with nowhere to sleep, and offer him food, warmth, a bed,

69
00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:10.360
a bit of human kindness, and then, at some point

70
00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:12.639
in the night, gripped by the terror of being alone

71
00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.439
again in the morning, he would strangle him. He wanted

72
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.600
the company, he wanted someone who would stay, so he

73
00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.879
made them stay in the most final way a person can.

74
00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:25.399
When detectives later asked him his motive, he told them

75
00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:27.600
he was hoping they would tell him because he didn't

76
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:31.319
fully understand it himself. He insisted he never decided to

77
00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:35.000
kill until the moment was already on him. Now, I'm

78
00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.079
going to be honest with you. I don't put a

79
00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:39.319
lot of stock in a serial killer's poetry about his

80
00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:41.439
own loneliness. And I'm not going to sit here and

81
00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:43.800
treat the murder of more than a dozen people as

82
00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:48.240
some tragic love of solitude gone wrong. A lonely man

83
00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:52.120
doesn't kill anybody. Millions of people are desperately lonely tonight,

84
00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:54.519
and not one of them is a danger to a soul.

85
00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:59.680
The loneliness explains nothing. Strangling a guest who trusted you.

86
00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.959
That's not a mistake, that's a choice. He made it

87
00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:07.079
again and again and again at his first flat on

88
00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:10.680
Melrose Avenue in Cricklewood. He kept the bodies for months,

89
00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:13.680
hidden under the floorboards of the place he ate and slept,

90
00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.000
and then disposed of them on bonfires in the back garden.

91
00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:21.959
Neighbors saw the fires, neighbors smelled them. Nobody said a word.

92
00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:25.399
He burned the evidence of multiple murders in open air

93
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.040
in a London suburb, and the world simply looked the

94
00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:33.000
other way. Their names. He confessed to killing fifteen, maybe

95
00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.120
sixteen young men. He was only ever convicted of six.

96
00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:39.360
And here's a fact that tells you everything. Several of

97
00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:43.120
his victims have never been identified, not then, not now.

98
00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.560
More than forty years later, men were murdered and the

99
00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.319
world could not even produce a name to bury. So

100
00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:51.720
let me give you the ones we do have, because

101
00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.079
they are owed at least that much. Stephen Holmes, just

102
00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.199
fourteen years old, a schoolboy. He was Nilsen's very first

103
00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:02.920
victim at the end of nineteen seventy eight. And here's

104
00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:05.480
the gut punch. He wasn't even one of the six

105
00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.639
murders Nilsen was convicted of because at the time of

106
00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:11.879
the trial nobody knew who he was, a fourteen year

107
00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.120
old boy, and it took decades just to put a

108
00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:18.120
name to him. Kenneth Aukenden twenty three years old, a

109
00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:21.160
Canadian student on a trip of a lifetime who made

110
00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.160
the mistake of accepting a friendly locals invitation back for

111
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:29.360
a drink. Martin Duffy sixteen years old. Billy Sutherland twenty

112
00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:31.879
seven years old, a young father who'd come to London

113
00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:36.360
looking for work. Malcolm Barlow twenty three years old, homeless,

114
00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:39.279
a man Nilsen had actually once helped by calling him

115
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:41.920
an ambulance and who came back the next day to

116
00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:45.600
say thank you, and was murdered for it. John Howett

117
00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:49.279
twenty three years old, Graham Allen twenty seven years old,

118
00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:53.360
and Steven Sinclair twenty years old, a troubled young Scott,

119
00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.959
the last one, the one whose remains were in that wardrobe.

120
00:06:57.399 --> 00:06:59.720
And then there are the men with no names at all.

121
00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.319
Nielsen could only describe some of them, a young Scott,

122
00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:08.279
an English skinhead, a boy from Belfast. Human beings, somebody's

123
00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:10.959
sons who walked into that flat and never walked out,

124
00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:13.639
and who are to this day just a sentence in

125
00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.360
a killer's confession. Somewhere out there are families who never

126
00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.399
got an answer, who maybe still wonder forty years on

127
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:25.000
whatever happened to him. That's the cruelty underneath the cruelty

128
00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.879
nobody was looking. So how does a man burn bodies

129
00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:31.759
in his garden and stuff a wardrobe with remains and

130
00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:34.600
get away with it for five entire years in a

131
00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:38.759
major city with a steady office job. The answer is

132
00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.399
the ugliest thing about this whole case, and it is

133
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.360
the reason I wanted it in this week. He chose

134
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:50.079
his victims precisely, homeless men, drifters, runaways, sex workers, and

135
00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.920
gay men in an era when being gay in Britain

136
00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:56.360
was still treated by much of society, and frankly by

137
00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:00.959
the police as something shameful and suspect. Those men went missing.

138
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.720
Often no report was filed because there was no one

139
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.439
to file it, and when there was a report, it

140
00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:09.360
went into a drawer because a missing drifter with no

141
00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:13.399
fixed address was nobody's priority. The killer understood that the

142
00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.600
men he picked were men the system had already decided

143
00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.319
not to look for. Nobody was looking for them. He

144
00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.920
banked on it. But here is the part that should

145
00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.160
keep you up at night, because it's worse than nobody looking.

146
00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.560
Some people did fight back, and they were not believed.

147
00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:31.800
Nielsen attacked more men than he killed, and some of

148
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.840
them got out alive. A man named Douglas Stewart woke

149
00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.639
to find Nielsen strangling him, fought him off, and escaped.

150
00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.759
He went to the police, nothing happened. A young student

151
00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.000
named Paul Nobe survived a night that left strangulation marks

152
00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.480
on his throat. A young man named Karl Stautor was

153
00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:53.600
throttled and held under the water in Nilsen's bath, left

154
00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:57.879
for dead, and somehow lived. These men survived a serial

155
00:08:57.960 --> 00:08:59.919
killer and lived to tell it, and the home of

156
00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:03.600
phobia of the time meant their warnings went nowhere. Some

157
00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:06.519
were too afraid to even come forward because they expected

158
00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:09.879
contempt instead of help. So the killer kept his job,

159
00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.360
kept his flat, and kept killing. The alarm was raised,

160
00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:17.440
nobody answered it when we come back. The move to

161
00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:20.080
a flat with no garden and no floorboards forced this

162
00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.559
killer into the one mistake that finally caught him, and

163
00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:26.159
the men he'd left for dead got to walk into

164
00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:28.919
a courtroom and look him in the eye. Stay with me,

165
00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.639
Welcome back to Daily Crime and Justice. In nineteen eighty one,

166
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.799
Nilsen had to move out of the house on Melrose

167
00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.639
Avenue and he took that attic flat at Cranleigh Gardens,

168
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:51.919
and that move is what undid him. The new place

169
00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:55.080
had no garden for bonfires and no easy floorboards to

170
00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:58.120
hide a body under. So to dispose of the three

171
00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:00.399
men he killed there, he resorted to the the method

172
00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.799
that became this case's grim signature. He dismembered them and

173
00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:06.879
tried to flush the remains away. The drains of an

174
00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:11.000
old London house were never built for that. They clogged.

175
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:16.080
The smell rose. A tenant called a plumber, and the

176
00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:19.600
whole thing came up out of the ground. Nielsen confessed

177
00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:23.399
almost eagerly over more than thirty hours of interviews. He

178
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:25.919
went on trial at the Old Bailey in October nineteen

179
00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.399
eighty three. His defense didn't dispute that he'd killed. It

180
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:33.399
argued diminished responsibility, that he was so mentally abnormal he

181
00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.759
was guilty only of manslaughter, not murder. And the most

182
00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.799
powerful answer to that argument came from the witness box,

183
00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:45.639
from the survivors Douglas Stewart, Paul Nobs, Karl Stodter, the

184
00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:48.000
men the system hadn't believed finally stood up in a

185
00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.559
courtroom and were believed by a jury, to devastating effect.

186
00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:56.559
On the fourth of November nineteen eighty three, Dennis Nilsen

187
00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:59.080
was convicted of six counts of murder and two of

188
00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:02.240
attempted murder. He was sentenced to life, and it was

189
00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:05.600
later made a whole life order. He would never come out.

190
00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.519
He died in prison in twenty eighteen at the age

191
00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.039
of seventy two, of natural causes. He never gave a

192
00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:16.360
satisfying reason. He never could, and accountability, as I always

193
00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:20.240
tell you, doesn't have a legal department. The fullest justice

194
00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.320
in this case didn't come from his confession or his death.

195
00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:26.279
It came from three men he tried to kill, sitting

196
00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:29.320
in a witness box alive, being listened to it last.

197
00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:31.960
The men who were never supposed to be heard were

198
00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.679
the ones who helped put him away for good. So

199
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:38.960
tonight say the ones we can Stephen Holmes fourteen years old,

200
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:45.480
Kenneth Aukinden, Martin Duffy, Billy Sutherland, Malcolm Barlowe, John Howllett, Graham, Allen,

201
00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:49.399
Steven Sinclair, and the ones we can't name, the young Scott,

202
00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:52.840
the Skinhead, the boy from Belfast, and the others who

203
00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:55.600
are still just a number in a killer's mouth. They

204
00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.240
were lonely too. The difference is they never heard anybody

205
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.679
for it. If somebody has to say they were here,

206
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.519
a few honest notes. Dennis Nielsen confessed to killing roughly

207
00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:18.559
fifteen or sixteen young men, but he was convicted by

208
00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.720
a jury of six murders and two attempted murders. The

209
00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.600
larger figure comes mainly from his own statements and the

210
00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:29.600
physical remains, and the precise total has never been definitively established.

211
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.440
Several of his victims were never identified and remained nameless

212
00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.799
to this day, and some dates and exact ages vary

213
00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:40.840
across sources. At trial, Nielsen pleaded not guilty to murder

214
00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:44.799
on the grounds of diminished responsibility. The jury rejected that

215
00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:48.440
defense and convicted him of murder, and that conviction is

216
00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.679
what we report as fact. The survivors named here gave

217
00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.600
evidence at his trial. Nielsen died in prison in twenty eighteen.

218
00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:00.399
We've named what we're confident of and flagged we're not.

219
00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:05.960
That's Crown versus Colony day three. Tomorrow, the story changes

220
00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.000
shape completely. We moved from a man who killed and

221
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:11.399
was caught to a boy who killed nobody at all

222
00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.440
and was hanged for it. Anyway, A nineteen year old

223
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:17.759
who never pulled the trigger, executed for a murder his

224
00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:20.879
friend committed on the strength of five words he may

225
00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:24.679
never have said, Derek Bentley and one of the gravest

226
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.440
miscarriages of justice in British history. Tomorrow on Daily Crime

227
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.360
and Justice. If this one stayed with you, do me

228
00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:33.919
a favor and share it. Tell someone we're doing the

229
00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:37.840
UK's worst all week and send them this episode. Word

230
00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:40.320
of mouth is honestly how this show grows and it

231
00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:44.399
costs you nothing. And if you're listening on Spotify, drop

232
00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:47.840
a comment down below. Tonight tell me this Do you

233
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.639
think anyone should have caught Dennis Nilsen sooner? And who

234
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.120
I read them? Wherever else you're listening on YouTube or

235
00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.480
anywhere else, A rating helps a lot. I'm Garrett Fisher.

236
00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:01.480
This has been Daily Crime and Justice. A quiet man,

237
00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.799
a quiet flat, and a room full of young men

238
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.639
nobody went looking for. We said the names. We could

239
00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:08.240
do better.