July 10, 2026

Charlie Kirk Case: The "95% DNA Match" Headline Is Wrong, Tyler Robinson's Hearing Ends Today, D4vd's Preliminary Date Set, and 16 Children

Charlie Kirk Case: The "95% DNA Match" Headline Is Wrong, Tyler Robinson's Hearing Ends Today, D4vd's Preliminary Date Set, and 16 Children
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A four-case roundup. In Provo, Utah, the preliminary hearing for Tyler Robinson — charged with aggravated murder in the September 2025 shooting of Turning Point USA co-founder Charlie Kirk — reaches its final scheduled day, and Judge Tony Graf may rule on whether the case proceeds to trial. Garret Fisher explains why the widely circulated "95% DNA match" headline misdescribes FBI examiner Amanda Bakker's testimony: 95% was a mixture ratio, not a probability of identification, and the actual likelihood ratio reported from the courtroom is orders of magnitude larger. Robinson has not entered a plea; the state is seeking the death penalty. In Los Angeles, David Anthony Burke, the 21-year-old musician who records as D4vd, has a July 21st preliminary hearing date in the killing of 14-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez; he has pleaded not guilty to all counts. In Payette, Idaho, Andrea Shaw, 23, indicted on two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of her 18-month-old twins, Dallas and Tyson, asks a judge on July 14th to reduce her $2 million bond; she maintains her innocence, and the children's cause of death has not been publicly released. And in Vinton County, Ohio, one of four adults charged with sixteen counts of endangering children — after sixteen children were found living in a 12-by-12-foot room — was released on a recognizance bond because the county could not afford his hospital care. All four have pleaded not guilty. This episode discusses the deaths and abuse of children. The Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline is available 24 hours a day at 1-800-422-4453.

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WEBVTT

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Caalaroga Shark Media.

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Good morning, you're listening to Daily Crime and Justice. I'm

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Garrett Fisher and it is Friday, July tenth, twenty twenty six.

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Here is where things stand this morning. In Provo, Utah,

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the preliminary hearing for Tyler Robinson reaches its final scheduled day.

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Judge Tony Graff will decide whether prosecutors have shown enough

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to send Robinson to trial for the aggravated murder of

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Charlie Kirk. In Los Angeles, the singer who records under

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the name D four VD, whose actual name is David Burke,

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finally has a preliminary hearing date in the killing of

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fourteen year old Celeste Revas Hernandez.

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It is July twenty first.

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In Payette, Idaho, twenty three year old Andrea Shaw is

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asking a judge to cut her two million dollar bond

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so she can go home and nurse the newborn she

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delivered eleven days before she was arrested for allegedly suffocating

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her eighteen month old twins. And in Southeast Ohio, one

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of the four adults charged with endangering sixteen children found

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living in a twelve foot by twelve foot room has

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been released from custody on a signature four stories.

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Let's go.

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Look, I'm going to be honest with you. I read

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a headline this week that said an FBI analyst had

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revealed a ninety five percent DNA match between Tyler Robinson

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and the towel wrapped around the rifle that killed Charlie Kirk,

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ninety five percent stunning. The headline said a bombshell, And

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I want to walk you through why that headline is wrong,

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why the truth is far more damning for the defense

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than the headline suggests, and why it should bother you

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that almost nobody bothered to explain the difference. Because there

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is a version of this story where a number gets

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thrown around, everybody nods, and nobody actually understands what happened

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in that courtroom. That version is happening right now. You're

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not going to do that version. This is Daily Crime

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and Justice Story one. Tyler Robinson, Day two and day three.

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We have been on this case since the day it happened,

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and we were with you on Wednesday when this hearing

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was still finding its footing. So let me catch you

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up fast, and then let's get into the part that matters.

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September tenth, twenty twenty five, Utah Valley University in Aurum.

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Charlie Kirk is thirty one years old. He is the

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co founder of Turning Point USA. He is a husband.

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He is the father of two small children, and he

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is doing what he always did, which is sitting under

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a tent in an open courtyard, arguing with strangers who

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came to argue with him.

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At twelve twenty three in the afternoon, a single shot

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is fired from the roof of a building called the

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low Cea Center. Charlie Kirk is struck in the neck.

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He is taken to the hospital and he dies there

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on Monday, Day one of this preliminary hearing. The medical

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examiner's findings went into the record manner of death homicide,

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immediate cause of death gunshot wound to the neck. I

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want to sit on that for a second, because for

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the better part of a year there has been a

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cottage industry of people online insisting that Charlie Kirk did

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not die the way three thousand witnesses and a dozen

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cameras say he died. Exploding microphones, stage footage, all of

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it Monday under oath. A doctor's report said gunshot wound

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to the neck, and the conspiracy economy will move on

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to the next thing because it always does. And none

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of the people who sold that theory will apologize to

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Charlie Kirk's widow, who sat in that courtroom on Monday

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and left the room when a former campus police officer

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began describing the shot. Erica Kirk was there. Charlie's parents,

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Robert Kirk and Catherine Smith, were there. At one point

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during the second day, Erica Kirk reached forward and handed

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a tissue to a crying woman sitting in front of her.

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The family has been given permission by the court to

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come and go, so they can step out for the

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worst of it.

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Think about what that sentence means. There is a formal

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arrangement in place so that a widow can leave the

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room before she has to hear how her husband died.

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Again.

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Now, Tuesday, day two, the lead investigator, David Hall of

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the Utah State Bureau of Investigation, walked the courtroom through

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a compilation of campus surveillance video that the public had

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never seen. Prosecutors had to strip it down first because

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Judge Graff refused to admit a version with zooms and

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red circles drawn on it. Good if the video makes

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the point. The video makes the point, you don't need

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graphic design. Here is what Hull says. The video shows

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eight thirty in the morning, September tenth, a gray Dodge

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pulls into the campus parking garage. A young man gets out,

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dark red shirt, dark shorts, baseball cap, converse, sneakers, backpack.

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He walks onto campus and speaks with staff from Turning

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Point USA. Not sure what about Hall didn't say. Then

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he goes back to the garage and drives away. After

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ten he is back on foot, same clothes, same backpack,

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and this is the detail that will follow this case forever.

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He walks into the Sorenson Student Center. He buys food

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at the Chick fil A and he sits down and

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eats it. Then he walks across campus into a wooded area.

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When he comes back out, according to Hull, he is

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no longer carrying the backpack. He moves through two buildings

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and over a railing that provides access to a roof.

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Then he retraces his steps and leaves campus by eleven.

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He returns a third time near noon, different clothes now dark,

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long sleeved shirt, jeans, same converse sneakers, and Hull testified

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that in this footage, the man appears to be walking

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with a limp or exaggerating his gait as he passes

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the cameras he goes up onto the roof at twelve

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twenty three the shot. Seconds later, the same figure is

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walking back across that roof. He jumps down to the ground.

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He leaves campus on foot, carrying, in Hall's words, some

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kind of object in his hand, and the limp is gone.

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That is not a mistake. That is a choice. Somebody

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thought about the cameras. Somebody decided a limp was a

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good idea and then forgot to keep it. If the

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state has that timeline right, this was a person who

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planned the killing of another human being with enough care

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to fake a walk, and not enough care to fake

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it twice.

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There is a fourth visit.

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In the early morning hours of September eleventh, while a

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manhunt was underway, an officer working security approached him. Hull

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called it cop intuition. The officer wrote down the license plate.

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Weeks and months of investigation later, that plate came back

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to Tyler Robinson, and that officer Scribble put Robinson on

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that campus on that night in his own car.

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Now here is the number.

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Utah Department of Public Safety agent Jennifer foul Mowena testified

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that investigators recovered a bolt action rifle in that wooded

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area wrapped up a towel on the roof of the

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low Ce Center, near what prosecutors have been calling the

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sniper's perch.

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They found a screwdriver.

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The rifle went to the ATF The towel and the

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screwdriver went to the FBI lab in Virginia. That is

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where Amanda Backer works. She has been a forensic examiner

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there for more than ten years. She testified that her

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lab received evidence in this case on September eleventh, and

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that while DNA testing normally takes her lab one hundred

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and eighty to two hundred days, this case was given

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priority status and her staff worked around the clock. Backer

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testified that the DNA on the towel and on the

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screwdriver came from more than one person. On both items,

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testing initially identified three profiles. Two of them were identified.

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One was Tyler Robinson, the other was Lance Twiggs, Robinson's

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roommate at the time, and according to prosecutors, his romantic partner.

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Backer testified that roughly ninety five percent of the contributing

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genetic material on one of those items came from a

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single source, and about five percent came from someone else.

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And that right there is where a national tabloid took

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the number ninety five percent, glued it to the words

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DNA match, and shipped it out as a bombshell. It

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is not a match statistic. It has nothing to do

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with how confident anyone is that the DNA is Robinson's.

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It is a mixture ratio.

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It describes how much of the biological material on that

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towel came from one person versus another person. It is

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a pie chart, not a probability. And here is the thing.

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If the FBI had actually walked into that courtroom and said,

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we are ninety five percent confident this is Tyler Robinson,

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that would have been a catastrophe for the prosecution. Ninety

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five percent means one in twenty. There are more than

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three hundred thousand people in Utah County. A one in

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twenty certainty means you have just described roughly fifteen thousand suspects.

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No prosecutor on earth wants that number. What Backer actually

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gave the court was a likelihood ratio, and according to

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reporters in the courtroom, on one of those items, the

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testimony was that the results are roughly one point seven

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octillion times more likely if Twigs and Robinson are the

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contributors than if Twigs and some unknown unrelated person are

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the contributors. And octilian is a one with twenty seven

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zeros after it. There are not one point seven octillion people.

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There have not been one point seven octillion human beings

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in the entire history of the species. There are not

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that many grains of sand on this planet. So the

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honest headline is not ninety five percent. The honest headline

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is a number so large it stops meaning anything to

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the human brain, which is exactly why nobody wrote it

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and exactly why somebody grabbed ninety five instead. Ninety five

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is a number you can put in a headline. Ninety

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five sounds like a grade. And now let me be

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equally honest in the other direction, be because that is

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the whole job. On cross examination, defense attorney Michael Bert

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went after Baker hard and he made a point that

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is not stupid. Baker acknowledged that the FBI's protocol is

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to avoid declaring an absolute identification from DNA. She acknowledged

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degradation on both items, more on the screwdriver than the towel.

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She acknowledged that DNA can persist on an object for decades,

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which is another way of saying that DNA on a

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towel does not tell you when the DNA got there.

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Bert's summary was that she cannot match mister Robinson to

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the question samples. He is right that she cannot in

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the sense that no analyst says the word match under oath.

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And prosecutors objected repeatedly that all of this was beyond

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the scope of the hearing, and they are also right

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because this hearing is not about guilt. Judge Graff is

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deciding one question, and one question only. Is there probable

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cause to make Tyler Robinson's stand trial. That is a

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very low bar, it is supposed to be. But if

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you are Tyler Robinson's lawyer, you already know the octilion

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is coming for you at trial, and you are laying

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groundwork now that is not cynical. That is competent defense work,

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and he is entitled to it. Wednesday, Day three, State

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Bureau of Investigation Agent Brian Davis took the stand and

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testified that Lance Twiggs was interviewed twice and that Twiggs

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was granted immunity, meaning what he told investigators cannot be

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used against him. Robinson's lawyers spent most of Wednesday fighting

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to keep the video of that interview out of open court.

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Prosecutors played footage of Robinson's standing in a room at

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the Washington County Sheriff's office the day after the shooting

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after he turned himself in. Reporters in the room noticed

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that Robinson, who has sat through most of this without

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visible reaction, including through the sound of the gunshot, became

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visibly uncomfortable when Davis began talking about the surrender, and

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that he took deep breath when Lance Twiggs's name came up.

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A few other things you should know. Judge Graff has

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already denied the defense's attempt to close this hearing to

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the press. He has denied their bid to halt the proceedings.

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He has kept the death penalty on the table, which

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the defense has now failed twice to remove. And in

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a detail that says something about how this case has

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been handled, Graff held one of the prosecutors, Christopher Ballard,

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in civil contempt for violating the court's gag order. Robinson

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is twenty three. He faces seven state charges. He has

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not entered a plea. The state is seeking his execution.

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The hearing was.

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Scheduled to run Monday through Friday, which means that as

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you are listening to this, Judge Graff may be delivering

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his ruling, or may already have delivered it. We will

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bring it to you Monday. Charlie Kirk was thirty one

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years old. He should be arguing with a college kid

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under a tent somewhere this morning. He should be going

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home to his two children tonight. Somebody has to say

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his name. Charlie Kirk. Commercial break On Tuesday, David Anthony Burke,

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the twenty one year old musician who records under a

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stage name spelled D four VD and pronounced David, came

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back into a courtroom in an orange jail uniform. He

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was unshaven, his hair was longer. Court TV's reporter said

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he spoke exactly four words the entire hearing.

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Good morning, your honor.

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He smiled at the judge, then sat slouched with his

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eyes on the bench. Regular listeners know this case cold,

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so I will not rebuild it from the studs. But

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if you are new this morning, here is the shape

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of it. Celeste Reevas Hernandez was fourteen years old. In

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September of twenty twenty five, workers at a Hollywood towyard

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noticed a smell coming from a Tesla. The car was

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registered to David Burke. Inside the trunk in a bag

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was Celeste's body. She had been dismembered. It happened right

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around what would have been her fifteenth birthday. Prosecutors say

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Burke met her in January of twenty twenty two, when she.

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Was eleven years old.

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They say a sexual relationship began the next year, when

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she was thirteen and he was eighteen. She was reported

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missing in February of twenty twenty four. Prosecutors alleged she

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was killed in late April of twenty twenty five after

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an argument in which she threatened to reveal damaging information

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about their relationship, information they say she believed would end

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his career. He has pleaded not guilty to first degree murder,

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to continuous lewde and lascivious acts with a child under fourteen,

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and to mutilating human remains. He has been in custody

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since April seventeenth, and for two months this case has

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gone precisely nowhere. The preliminary hearing was originally set for May,

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It got pushed, then pushed again. Burke's defense told the

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court they had not received the DNA evidence and accused

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prosecutors of Prosecutors said they were producing it round and round.

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Tuesday that ended, the defense told judge that they had

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now received a large volume of digital data. Prosecutors told

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the court they have handed over everything relevant to a

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preliminary hearing, and both sides confirmed the date July twenty first,

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eleven days from now. At that hearing, prosecutors are expected

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to lay out the purchases they say Burke made after

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Celeste died chainsaws, a shovel, a body bag, a burn cage,

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an inflatable pool. Prosecutors have said in filings that he

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dismembered her in that pool so that her blood would

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not spill onto his garage floor, and that investigators found

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small blue plastic fragments embedded in her remains. Her ring

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finger and her pinky finger were amputated. They have never

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been found. I want to be careful here. Those are

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prosecution allegations laid out in charging documents, and David Burke

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has pleaded not guilty to every count. He is entitled

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to the presumption of innocence and a preliminary hearing is

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not a trial. Nothing gets proven on July twenty first.

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But I have watched this case for ten months now,

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and I have watched a fourteen year old girl's name

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get attached to a stage name, a streaming catalog, and

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a discovery dispute. There is a playbook for this delay.

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Delay complain about discovery delay. It is legal, it is

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often necessary. And it is also true that Celeste Reevas

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Hernandez has been dead for more than a year and

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has not gotten a single day of testimony in a

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public courtroom. On the twenty first, she gets won. Celeste

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Revas Hernandez was fourteen. She ran away from home when

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she was thirteen. She should be starting her sophomore year

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of high school in a few weeks. Someone has to

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say her name. Celeste Revas her Nandez. Story three, Dallas

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and Tyson. Payette, Idaho, is a town of about sex

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seven thousand people on the Oregon border. On May first,

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twenty twenty five, in a home in Payette, two eighteen

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month old twins were found dead in a bed they shared,

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a boy and a girl. Court records named them Dallas

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and Tyson. I am going to say those names a

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few times this morning, because when I read the coverage

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of this case, I found them referred to almost everywhere

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as ds and TS initials. That is standard practice in

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charging documents, and there are good reasons for it. But

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they were people eighteen months old. They had spent time

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in the nicu after they were born, which means somebody

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fought to keep them alive. At the very beginning. The

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Payette Police Department said from the start that foul play

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was suspected and that they were treating the deaths as

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a homicide. Then they named nobody, and fourteen months went by.

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On June twenty ninth of this year, a Payette County

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grand jury handed up a two page indictment charging the

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twins' mother, twenty three year old Andrea Show, with two

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counts of first degree murder. It alleges that she suffocated

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both of her children. First degree murder in Idaho requires premeditation,

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and it carries the possibility of the death penalty, though

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prosecutors have not said whether they will seek it. Four

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witnesses testified to that grand jury. Three were Payette Police officers,

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the fourth was a pediatrician from the intensive care unit

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at Saint Luke's. Boise Police arrested Shaw on June thirtieth.

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She was arraigned in Ada County, waived extradition, and was

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arraigned again in Payett County on July second. Bond was

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set at two million dollars. Now here's where it gets complicated,

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and I want to walk through it carefully, because this

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one is not simple, and anybody telling you it is

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simple is selling you something. In the days after her

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twins died, Andrea Shaw and her husband appeared on a

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podcast funded by Children's Health Defense that is an anti

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vaccine advocacy organization previously led by Robert F. Kennedy Junior,

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who is now the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

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On that podcast, Shaw said her twins were perfectly healthy

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until a wellness visit at their doctor on April twenty third,

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twenty twenty five, where they received the hepatitis A vaccine,

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the DTaP vaccine, and a flu shot. About a week later,

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she said she found them dead in their bed. Her attorney,

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Joseph Philichetti has repeated that theory publicly. He told a

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Boise station that he is not a doctor, but that

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the doctors he has consulted say this was a vaccine

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related death. He asked, reasonably enough, why a mother intending

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to kill her children would take.

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Them to a doctor.

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So let me tell you what I know and what

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I do not know. What I do not know is

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the cause of death. It has never been publicly released,

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not by the coroner, not by the prosecutor, not in

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the indictment, which runs two pages and says the word

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suffocation and not much else. Everybody talking about this case,

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including me, is working with less information than the grand

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jury had. What I do know is this The hepatitis

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A vaccine, the DTaP vaccine, and the flu vaccine are

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among the most intensively studied medical products in human history.

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They have been given hundreds of millions of times. There

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is no established mechanism by which they cause otherwise healthy

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toddlers to die in their sleep a week later, and

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no medical examiner in this case or any other, has

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said that they do. That is not my opinion. That

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is the state of the evidence. When a defense attorney

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says that his own consultants call something a vaccine death.

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That is a defense theory, and the words for a

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defense theory are defense theory. Explaining a theory is not

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endorsing it, and I want to be equally clear on

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the other side of that line, Andrea Shaw has not

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been convicted of anything. She maintains her innocence. A grand

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jury indictment is an accusation and only an accusation. Twelve

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people heard, three cops and a pediatrician, and nobody cross

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examined anybody, because that is not what a grand jury

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is for, which brings us to this week. On June

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twenty fifth, eleven months after she buried her twins and

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five days before her arrest, Andrea Shaw delivered another baby,

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a cesarean section three weeks premature. The infant spent a

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night in the NICU. Shaw was breastfeeding that child when

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officers took her into custody. This week, her attorney filed

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a motion asking Judge Kylie Stutchlik to cut her bond

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from two million dollars to what the motion calls a

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manageable amount, one hundred thousand. The motion argues that jail

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poses a real medical risk to a woman who has

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just had abdominal surgery, infection, hemorrhage. It argues that the

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newborn needs her breast milk, and it describes Andrea Shaw

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in a phrase that has now traveled across every crime

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feed in they as sweet and quiet. She keeps to herself.

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She is not a threat to anyone. I want to

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name that for what it is. That is a sentence

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written by a defense attorney in a document whose entire

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purpose is to get his client out of a cell.

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It is a self serving statement.

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It is also his job, and he would be committing

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malpractice if he did not write it. The motion was

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filed with a request that it be sealed. Judge Stucklik

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denied that request and said the plain and correct thing,

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which is that the filing contained no specific private medical

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information that could not be shared, so we can all

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read it, including you.

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Here is what makes this.

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Hard, and I am not going to pretend otherwise everything

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in that motion could be true, and she could still

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have killed Dallas and Tyson. A woman can be quiet,

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a woman can be recovering from surgery, A newborn can

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need her. None of that is evidence about what happened

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00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:59.200
in a bedroom in Payette on the first of May

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twenty twenty five, and a bond hearing is not the

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place where we find out the bond question goes back

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00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:09.759
before Judge Stuschlick on July fourteenth. There is a newborn

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00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.759
in this story who has done nothing to anybody and

401
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.119
whose father is caring for him while all of this

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00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.160
gets sorted out.

403
00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:18.119
There is no clean answer here.

404
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.160
There is no version of this where somebody walks out

405
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:25.200
of that courtroom feeling good. Dallas and Tyson were eighteen

406
00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:25.839
months old.

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00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:27.960
They shared a bed. They should be.

408
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Three years old this month, learning to run and refusing

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00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.680
to nap. Nobody was paying attention to them for fourteen months.

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We will pay attention now. Sixteen children twelve by twelve. Hampden, Ohio,

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population under one thousand. Vinton County in the southeast corner

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00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.960
of the state, in the Appalachian Foothills. It is the

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least populous county in Ohio. On June thirtieth, sheriff's deputies

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00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.559
went to a house on Omer Street to serve court

415
00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:09.039
authorized search warrants. They were investigating allegations of domestic abuse

416
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.680
and child neglect. Separately, there was a warrant out for

417
00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:15.039
one of the men who lived there on four publican

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00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:17.920
decency counts stemming from incidents at that same address in

419
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:20.960
May involving people who did not live in that household.

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Nobody knew there were children in the house. There were sixteen.

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They ranged an age from about a year and a

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00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:30.759
half to eighteen years old. Investigators had to wear masks

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00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.279
to go inside. There were stacks of garbage some areas

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00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:38.519
of the house agents could not physically reach. Ohio Attorney

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00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:42.400
General Andy Wilson said the children looked like almost feral animals,

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00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.480
and that they had limited ability to communicate, and that

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00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:49.400
some of them could not communicate at all. Investigators believed

428
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.799
that most of those sixteen children spent the last four

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00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.160
years in an area of that house measuring roughly twelve

430
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:59.359
feet by twelve feet twelve by twelve That is smaller

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00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:01.680
than most beads. It is about the size of a

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single parking space and a half. Seven of the children

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00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:08.920
were taken to hospitals in Columbus. At least two were

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00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.880
flown by helicopter. Wilson said that in his judgment, if

435
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:16.519
investigators had waited another twenty four hours, there was a

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00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:19.200
high probability they would have been dealing with the death

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00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:23.759
of a child or the deaths of children plural. Sheriff

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00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:26.920
Ryan Kane said most livestock in that county is kept

439
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:31.759
in better conditions. Four adults were arrested, Gary Siders Senior

440
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:36.319
seventy three, his wife Christina, their son, Gary Siders Junior,

441
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.079
thirty six, and Gary Junior's wife, Elizabeth Siders thirty three,

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00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:44.839
the grandparents and the parents. Each of them was charged

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00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:49.200
with sixteen counts of endangering children second degree felonies, one

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00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:52.759
count for each child. They pleaded not guilty on July first.

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Bond was set at three hundred thousand dollars apiece with

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00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.359
orders barring contact with the children or with each other.

447
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.480
On Tuesday, all four waived their preliminary hearings. Prosecutors say

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00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.480
they intend to take the case to a grand jury

449
00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:10.039
convening this month now the part that made me put

450
00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:13.359
my coffee down. Prosecutors say the Ciders family has lived

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00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:18.160
in multiple Ohio counties since two thousand and eight Gallia Jackson, Pike.

452
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:22.400
There are possible ties to Wisconsin, and investigators believe that

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00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.160
in all that time, across all those counties, this family

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00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:31.039
successfully avoided establishing medical records and government records, the children

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00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:34.160
were not enrolled in school. Neighbors on Omer Street told

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00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.839
reporters they had never seen a child in that yard.

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00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.599
One of them said the house seemed abandoned. Eighteen years,

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00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:45.400
sixteen children, not one school registration, not one pediatrician, not

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00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.200
one caseworker. In a county of thirteen thousand people, where

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00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:53.480
everybody knows everybody, sixteen children lived and grew, and according

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00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.039
to the state suffered, and the system that exists specifically

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00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:00.359
to notice children did not notice them. Nobody would paying

463
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.039
attention to them for a decade and a half. And

464
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:06.400
then there is what happened Tuesday afternoon. Gary Sider Senior,

465
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:09.519
the seventy three year old, fell while deputies were transporting

466
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:12.039
him from the jail to court. He was taken to

467
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:16.000
a hospital in Athens. Doctors found what the prosecutor calls

468
00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:19.519
a serious medical condition and said he needs specialized care

469
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.960
at a larger facility outside the county. Because he was

470
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.160
in county custody, Vinton County would have been on the

471
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.599
hook for the bill, So Vinton County Prosecutor William Archer

472
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.039
went before Judge Lana Rodgers and agreed to convert Gary

473
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:37.359
Sider senior's three hundred thousand dollars cash bond into a

474
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:45.119
recognizance bond, a signature, no money, he walks. Archer's explanation

475
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:47.720
was direct, and I want you to hear it exactly

476
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.279
as he said it. He said the medical care could

477
00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:53.640
potentially bankrupt Vinton County. He said they were not going

478
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.640
to put that burden on local taxpayers. He said the

479
00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.000
community is not at risk because of this bond. Ifers

480
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.680
ever leaves that hospital. He wears a GPS monitor. I've

481
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:05.720
gone back and forth on this all week, and I

482
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:07.359
have landed somewhere that surprised me.

483
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:08.559
So stay with me.

484
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:12.440
This is not a scandal. This is not a prosecutor

485
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:16.160
going soft. William Archer looked at a seventy three year

486
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:19.000
old man who is presumed innocent, who has not been

487
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:22.279
convicted of anything, who needs a hospital, And he looked

488
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:24.799
at the budget of the poorest county in Ohio, and

489
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.880
he understood that a three hundred thousand dollars bond means

490
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.200
absolutely nothing if the county cannot afford to keep the

491
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:34.599
man it is holding. He made the call, He said

492
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.279
it out loud in public, with his name on it,

493
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.160
and he took the incoming. What this is is a

494
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:42.480
picture of what it costs to prosecute a case like

495
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:46.359
this in a place like this. Sixteen children in hospitals

496
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.920
for defendants, a grand jury that convenes maybe every other month,

497
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:54.559
because Vinton County is not Franklin County, where they seek

498
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:58.839
grand juries practically every day. An Attorney General's office that

499
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.160
has stepped into assist because, in Wilson's own careful phrasing,

500
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:06.440
this is a significant case that strains local resources. Strains

501
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:10.359
local resources. That is the polite version. The real version

502
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:12.759
is that the county where these children were hidden for

503
00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:15.559
four years does not have the money to hold the

504
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.079
men accused of hiding them.

505
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:18.400
There is more.

506
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:23.240
Gary Siders Senior's attorney, Dorian Baum, filed a motion Wednesday

507
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:27.480
asking for a competency evaluation. Bam wrote that his client

508
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:31.559
showed significant confusion about the legal process, could not describe

509
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:34.079
the roles of the people in the courtroom, and was

510
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:38.319
unable to describe basic facts about himself. Baum has said

511
00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:41.319
publicly that he is considering a plea of not guilty

512
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.599
by reason of insanity. Those are real questions, and a

513
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.319
court has to answer them before this case goes anywhere,

514
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:50.240
and I am not going to sneer at them from

515
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:55.400
a microphone. And then there is Elizabeth Siders, thirty three

516
00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:58.720
years old. She married into this family as a teenager.

517
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:02.359
A relative told reporters she came from a difficult home and,

518
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:06.599
in his word, escaped into the Cider's household. Her attorney,

519
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.039
Tommy Stally, says she is believed to be the biological

520
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:15.440
mother of all sixteen children, all sixteen. Stolly told reporters

521
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:18.119
that at this point his office is still not sure

522
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:21.559
whether his client is a victim herself sit with that sentence.

523
00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:25.599
Elizabeth Siders has filed her own motion, asking the judge

524
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:28.440
to lower her bond. In it, she says she wants

525
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:30.680
to be reunited with her children and that she does

526
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.799
not have three hundred thousand dollars. Two things are true

527
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.720
at once, and I am not going to pretend otherwise.

528
00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.519
Coercion is real. Women are trapped inside families like this,

529
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:44.960
and the law has spent decades slowly learning to see it.

530
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.160
And also, sixteen children were in a twelve x twelve room,

531
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.759
and a court is going to have to decide who

532
00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:54.720
put them there and who kept them there. And being

533
00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:58.519
afraid of your husband is not by itself a legal

534
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:02.759
defense to sixteen camps of endangering children. That is what

535
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.759
a trial is for. That is what the grand jury

536
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:06.240
is for.

537
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:07.480
All four of.

538
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.559
These people have pleaded not guilty, and every one of

539
00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:14.039
them is entitled to the presumption of innocence, including the

540
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.519
seventy three year old man in a hospital bed with

541
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:19.960
a monitor on his ankle. But the children don't need

542
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:24.200
a verdict to have been failed. That already happened. Sixteen kids,

543
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:28.759
one room, four years, no records, no school, no doctor.

544
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:33.119
Somebody drove past that house every single day. Accountability doesn't

545
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:35.200
have a legal department, and it doesn't have a county

546
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:35.799
budget either.

547
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:37.920
It just has whoever decides to look.

548
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:45.880
That is daily crime Injustice for Friday, July tenth, twenty

549
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.359
twenty six. In provo, a judge may rule today on

550
00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.400
whether Tyler Robinson stands trial for aggravated murder. The state

551
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:56.160
says a rifle, a towel, and a screwdriver carry his

552
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.880
DNA at odds. No human mind can hold his lawyers.

553
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:02.720
An FBI analyst cannot say the word match.

554
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:04.880
Both of those things are true.

555
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.240
And only one of them will matter in the end.

556
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.480
Charlie Kirk was thirty one in Los Angeles. David Burke

557
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.960
has eleven days until a courtroom finally hears the evidence

558
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.079
out loud. Celeste Revas Hernandez was fourteen in Payet, Idaho.

559
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.160
Andrea Shaw goes back before a judge on the fourteenth,

560
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:27.359
presumed innocent, asking to go home to a newborn Dallas

561
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.160
and Tyson were eighteen months old and they shared a

562
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:34.519
bed and they are not initials. And in Vinton County, Ohio,

563
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:37.920
sixteen children are in hospital beds and foster placements and

564
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:40.440
safe rooms for the first time in their lives, and

565
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:44.000
four adults are presumed innocent, and one of them is

566
00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:46.839
out on a signature because the county could not afford

567
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:49.480
to keep him. Those kids do not have names in

568
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:53.079
this broadcast because the law protects them, and thank God

569
00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:53.319
for that.

570
00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:55.240
But they have names.

571
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:58.039
If today's show gave you something you did not have

572
00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:00.400
this morning, and I hope the DNA segment and did

573
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.000
share it, tell one person send it to the friend

574
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.559
who saw the ninety five percent headline and did not

575
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.319
know what to do with it. Word of mouth is

576
00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:12.000
the entire reason this show exists, and it is the

577
00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.319
only reason cases like Dallas and Tyson's ever get looked

578
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.319
at twice And if you are listening on Spotify, drop

579
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:22.200
a comment. Tell me which of these four you want

580
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:25.720
us to stay on, because we will we read everyone.

581
00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:29.720
I'm Garrett Fisher. This has been Daily Crime and Justice

582
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:33.160
from Calaroga Shark Media. We're back Monday with the ruling

583
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:38.319
from provo. Until tomorrow, do better. The following is the

584
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:42.079
legal disclaimer for this episode. Every person discussed in today's

585
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.759
program who has been charged with a crime is presumed

586
00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:48.279
innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law.

587
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:51.480
Tyler Robinson has not entered a plea to the seven

588
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.720
state charges against him, including aggravated murder in the death

589
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:00.240
of Charlie Kirk. The preliminary hearing described in this episode

590
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:03.519
determines only whether probable cause exists to proceed to trial.

591
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.440
It does not determine guilt. All testimony described here is

592
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.360
as reported by journalists president in the courtroom. Some outlets,

593
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:15.000
including The Daily Mail, characterize the FBI testimony as a

594
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.440
ninety five percent DNA match. Court reporting from multiple outlets

595
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:23.280
indicates that figure described the proportion of genetic material attributable

596
00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:26.840
to one contributor in a mixed sample, not a probability

597
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:31.079
of identification. Outlets have differed on the model of Robinson's vehicle,

598
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:35.000
variously reported as a Dodge Challenger and a Dodge Charger,

599
00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:39.800
and on the agency employing lead investigator David Hall, identified

600
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:43.119
by most outlets as the Utah State Bureau of Investigation.

601
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:45.920
The likelihood ratio figures.

602
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:48.719
Cited come from courtroom reporting and have not been independently

603
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:53.239
verified against the exhibit. Judge Tony Graff's ruling had not

604
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:56.679
been issued at the time this episode was recorded. David

605
00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:59.920
Anthony Burke, who records under the stage name spelled D

606
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:03.679
four VD, has pleaded not guilty to first degree murder,

607
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.639
continuous lewde and lascivious acts with a child under fourteen,

608
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:12.280
and mutilating human remains in the death of Celeste Revas Hernandez.

609
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:16.559
The purchases, the dismemberment, and the alleged motive described in

610
00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:20.320
this episode are allegations contained in prosecution filings and have

611
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:24.199
not been proven a trial. His preliminary hearing is scheduled

612
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:27.880
for July twenty first, twenty twenty six. Andrea Shaw has

613
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:30.719
been indicted by a Payet County grand jury on two

614
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:35.199
counts of first degree murder and maintains her innocence. A

615
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.960
grand jury indictment is an accusation, not a finding of guilt.

616
00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:42.280
The cause of death of Dallas and Tyson has not

617
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:43.639
been publicly released.

618
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.440
Reports of the date of their deaths have varied.

619
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:49.760
Police records indicate the children were found on May first,

620
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:54.679
twenty twenty five, while some coverage sites may fifth. The

621
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:57.119
claim that the twins died as a result of routine

622
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.719
childhood vaccinations is a theory advanced by the defense and

623
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.599
by an advocacy organization, and it is not supported by

624
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.480
the scientific evidence or by any published finding of a

625
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:12.119
medical examiner. Characterizations of Shaw contained in her bond motion

626
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.400
are statements made by her attorney on her behalf and

627
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.199
are self serving by nature. The bond question is scheduled

628
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.519
to be heard July fourteenth, twenty twenty six. Gary Sider Senior,

629
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:27.559
Christina Siders, Gary Siders Junior, and Elizabeth Siders have each

630
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:31.679
pleaded not guilty to sixteen counts of endangering children. No

631
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:36.000
homicide charge has been filed against any of them. Statements

632
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:39.079
by the Ohio Attorney General and the Vinton County Sheriff

633
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.000
describing conditions in the home are characterizations by law enforcement

634
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:47.599
made before any trial. Gary Sider Senior's competency has not

635
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:51.519
been determined by a court. The assertion that Elizabethsiders may

636
00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:54.559
herself be a victim is a statement by her defense

637
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:59.079
counsel and has not been established. Separate public and decency

638
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.719
charges against Garyrry Siders Junior are unrelated to the child

639
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:05.039
endangering counts and remain unproven.

640
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:06.920
A grand jury.

641
00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:10.320
Has not yet returned an indictment in the case. This

642
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:13.800
episode draws on court TV reporting, the daily mail wire,

643
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:19.000
and broadcast coverage from the associated Press, Fox News, KUTV, KUER,

644
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:28.199
ABC four, ktvb Idaho News, WOUB wowk NBC four Columbus, WSAZ,

645
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:32.320
and ten TV, and on publicly filed court records. We

646
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:34.360
do our best to get it right. When we get

647
00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.400
it wrong, we correct it on air. Everything here is

648
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:42.039
opinion and interpretation, offered as commentary, not as legal fact.

649
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.960
Today's episode discusses the deaths of children and the abuse

650
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:48.920
of children. If you suspect a child is being abused

651
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.159
or neglected, the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline is

652
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:55.119
available twenty four hours a day at one eight hundred

653
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:04.119
four two two four four, five, three,