Leaving Corporate America To Become a Full-Time Traveling Family (World Towning Part 1)

Kristin:    00:00:00    You can get addicted to the travel, you can get addicted to the pace of the travel, and you can get addicted to the newness of being out of your comfort zone. And you can get addicted to the struggle, but then when the dust settles,  

Jessica:    00:00:14    I love that you said that.  

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.

Kristin Wilson, Host:    00:00:36    Good morning, afternoon or evening, wherever you are in the world. I hope you're having a beautiful day today. And welcome, or to episode 130 of Badass Digital Nomads, Kristin, from Traveling with Kristin here. And I have a two part interview for you today with Jessica and Will Sueiro of the YouTube channel, World Towning. Jessica and Will are corporate dropouts turned avid adventurers who have been traveling the world since 2014 with their two children, Avalon and Largo. They visited 70 countries to date and their quest to provide a global education for their children and to try to forge deeper bonds as a family. The first part of the interview today starts out pretty organic. Uh, Jessica and Will were just hanging out on their boat in France, and we were chatting away on Zoom as this podcast interview started. And so it's basically just a normal conversation like you would have with any of your friends.  

Kristin:    00:01:49    We talk about what the past year has been like for travelers during the pandemic, and it just kind of flows naturally from there. Today's conversation was kind of like a group therapy session, to be honest. Jessica and Will opened up a lot about the personal side sides of long-term travel from the challenges of quitting their traditional jobs to become full-time travelers to how they've managed to stay married while traveling full-time. And we also talked a lot about our struggles with the American workaholic mentality and burnout, especially during the pandemic. And then towards the end, it was really interesting to hear Will's take on finding himself in his second career as a YouTuber. And basically how he was a repressed artist. He was a corporate accountant who didn't think he was creative and never thought of editing videos. But now here he is running a YouTube channel.  

Kristin:    00:02:57    So if you've ever felt like you weren't creative or if you've been able to overcome creative blocks to express yourself creatively, then I think you'll find his story to be quite insightful and relatable. And then in next week's episode, we're talking a lot about the pros and cons of living in the US versus living abroad. When is the best time to start traveling? Should you travel with your kids? Should you wait until they grow up and graduate from school? Should you wait until you're retired? And they also talked about what their favorite and least favorite countries are in Europe and they've been to every single country in Europe. And also what they've learned about their own culture as US citizens from the locals that they've met in other countries. So kind of seeing our home country of the US sort of through the looking glass in lens of locals abroad.  

Kristin:    00:03:59    In case you missed it, I have two new videos out on youtube.com/travelingwithKristin. One on the most underrated countries in the world, and one on my favorite countries in 15 categories. Much requested you don't wanna miss those. And I would also like to thank my newest Patreon patrons, Shelly, Ron, Paul, Andy, Jeff and Paulo. We are 54 people strong right now, and my goal is to create a community of 100 VIP insiders by the end of the year who get to preview my videos first, get access to special offers and hang out in a private Zoom call each month. You can join us for $5 a month at patreon.com/travelingwithKristin. Also thanks to Dave for the two extra coffees this week. And to Paul for contributing nine coffees. You can send a coffee my way at badassdigitalnomads.com/donate. I would also like to thank Dally and Nick for sending the very thoughtful Starbucks gift card. Definitely make sure you tune in again next week for part two of our conversation. And enjoy.

Podcast Interview:

Kristin: I saw in your background, I really related to this and I think a lot of people can, I think probably a few hundred million people can relate to this, but coming from corporate backgrounds and like reinventing yourselves in your, how, how old were you when you decided in your forties when you decided to leave?  

Jessica:    00:05:44    Early forties.  

Kristin:    00:05:45    Early forties, Let me find the quote that you said here.  

Jessica:    00:05:51    There's a whole bunch of stuff to talk about of us walking away from what are considered, you know, good careers in corporate, the corporate world. He was in the corporate world. I had my own business. And kind of the backlash we got for doing that of, you know, you're not serving your family right? You're not giving your kids the opportunity, the American dream. You're not gonna be able to come back to this career. You're being reckless. Like there, there we, you know, it wasn't like a hundred percent of the people, but we heard that, you know, we have this American mindset and this kind of workaholic in us. So it was, it, we had to really like kind of dig.  

Will:    00:06:24    I think it still exists though,  

Jessica:    00:06:25    Dig deep and really fight through that to not fall privy to those kind of naysayers or those people telling us that we're not validated unless we work enough and we still work too much. I mean, I I, I don't think we've perfected this, you  

Will:    00:06:35   No, the, there's that tho all those things. Like you can take the boy out of the, you know, whatever, like outta the country, but you can't take country outta the boy, whatever the case may be. You know, you insert insert variable, you know, and and for us, you know, you can take the workaholic out of the environment, but you can't take the workaholic. You know, you can't, you can't remove that sense of like, I must constantly be doing something. And I  

Jessica:    00:06:56    Think it's harder too, when you love what you do. Like we really love what we do. Yeah. It's not like a chore, but I I, it's not a chore at all. But I also wanna set a really good example for our children, and particularly through Covid, like you said. Like you, there was nothing else to do. Even though we had kids and we played games and hung out with them, there was nothing to do outside of the boat because nothing was open. We couldn't, we were on all this lockdown and we had a lot along tops of about, is this really the example we wanna set for our children? You know, even if they love the work they're doing, should they be doing it seven days a week? You know, and we're, we're the model that they're gonna look to. 

Will:    00:07:30    It's, I don't, it's tough because like when you do something, you wanna do it well. And, and, and there's no, there's no halfway, you know, especially for between Jessica and I. 'cause we're both, we both sort of want to do extremely well in whatever we do. And, and it's tough because when you live an alternative lifestyle, you have to work extra hard to make this thing work. Yeah. 'cause no, nothing's handed to you on a silver platter when you, when you live outside the box. And, and so, you know, you have to sort of do everything and then some to maintain it because it's just, that's just the way it is, you know? Yeah. There's no systems in place to sort of help you out if things go wrong, <laugh>, because you decided to pursue your dream of doing everyone else's dream of sort of leaving corporate world. And so we, you know, 

Jessica:    00:08:14    We  could talk for days about the things that we've been sh we've been, I don't wanna be negative at all, but the things we've been shut out or the things we'd have, have to jump through extra hoops from that people living a stationary life don't have to. And it's not a complaint, it's just the reality of it. Just things down to, like our jo daughter getting her exams for university. It was much more difficult for us because we're homeschoolers and we're outside the US and it wasn't it, we were willing to come back to the US but it was just still so much more difficult because of the alternative lifestyle we chose. We have to have to prove ourself. We have to prove that the kids are actually educated. We have to prove this and prove that. But at the end of the day, the happy part of this is that I do it all over again.  

Jessica:    00:08:52    This life is so incredibly worth it, even when we have to jump through the hoops. Some days I wanna get up and bang my head against a wall because it takes us triple the time to do something because I have to prove everything. Like I have to prove this and prove that and prove that we're educating and prove that. But at the end of the day, what we get out of it is, is so much, is so worth it compared to the, the hoops that we have to jump through. And I know we kind of went in another direction and you were looking for a quote, so I apologize,  

Kristin:    00:09:16    <laugh>. No, no. This is how my podcasts go. I have an outline, but then they go in their natural way. I'm just facilitating the conversation. So Will said something about it, things being hard. Well, both of you have alluded to the difficulties of it, and I kind of feel, I kind of feel like you're therapist in a way because I've been living the lifestyle for an abnormal length of time. I think from, there's, there's kids that grow up in military households where they're traveling around and things like that. But I think I happen to fall into the lifestyle in my late teens, which is a weird time to do it because that's typically when you would go to college and then get a job. Yeah. Uh, you know, maybe take a gap year and come back. And I just kind of never came back. And so I feel like I've gone through these cycles over time and now I have the hindsight of looking back at like what you're going through now.  

Kristin:    00:10:12    Because something happens in your first year abroad, in your third year, in your sixth or seventh year, in your 10th year. In your 15th year. Like, you start to just peel back the layers of the onion. And it can be very addicting. You can get addicted to the travel, you can get addicted to the pace of the travel and you can get addicted to the newness of being out of your comfort zone. And you can get addicted to the struggle like that. Everything does become a struggle. Whether it's crossing a border or figuring out where the grocery store is, or trying to translate to people at a hospital 'cause you broke your ankle. Like everything is difficult. But that also makes it very exciting. But then when the dust settles,  

Jessica:    00:10:57    I love that you said that that part, what you said is so powerful, how you said, you know, you get addicted to the struggle because him and I, we are, we're always saying that we're most comfortable out of our comfort zone. Yes. You know, even though I say things are more difficult, like you, you're right. I never thought of as getting addicted to it. Like, but you said it perfectly. It is. It's getting addicted to it.  

Kristin:    00:11:17    I think the pandemic really showed everybody that ev all the travelers up close and personal because we didn't have travel as a distraction or an outlet except for the people that flew off to Mexico because it was open. But ironically, I don't know if it's because of my lifestyle or Right. I don't know how things work and coincidences and synchronicities. But I ended up going with a guy who's in my Facebook group. Darren, he invited me to a happy hour thing at this island in Miami. I go to this island, he wasn't there yet or something, but I met up with one of his friends who had just flown in from Tulum. And she had been digital nomad around for I think a year or so, maybe three years. And she's just laying on this lawn chair on the beach and there's the, you know, the music and the palm trees.  

Kristin:    00:12:09    And she's like, I'm not even having fun. She's like, I need to go home. She's like, I can't party anymore. And she was just depressed. And she went to the airport the next day and she posted on Instagram, I'm done with traveling, you know, I need a break. And she flew back to San Francisco when everyone was leaving San Francisco. She was going the opposite direction. And it was because she had hit this phase of burnout on travel. And here she was with this beautiful backdrop with the clear blue water and the house music and the swaying palm trees and the barefoot on the beach. And she had been in Dominican Republic in Puerto Rico and Tulum. And she just said, I'm done with the beach parties, I gotta get out of here <laugh>. Wow. And so, yeah, I mean, it sounds crazy. It's a total first world problem. But this is what can happen. You can find yourself in a beautiful place where you're pinching yourself on the south of France, you know, learning how to make wine and crushing grapes with your feet and sailing around. But then also, you know, having these moments of truth where you're like, okay, am I working too hard or are we missing something here? What, you know, what is our why? Like, reconnecting with like, why are we doing this? And um, yeah. Well  

Will:    00:13:24    That just highlights like the false images that people portray on social media because it's not always, you know, this glorious backdrop with this incredible setting and, and sort of this wonderful, you know, two paragraph sentiment that you put onto Instagram. You know, there's a lot more behind that that sort of is not shown in showcase.  

Kristin:    00:13:43    That's why I like your stuff. 'cause actually I have titled your, your podcast, I didn't even tell you this yet, but I put like, what it's really like to travel full-time with kids. Like I like that you talk about the reality of travel.  

Jessica:    00:13:58    Yeah. I think when we started the YouTube channel and when we started our consulting and even the group trips, even though they kind of take on a different type of approach, the idea was will, and I said it was purely selfish. We wanted to get more people out here traveling, but people thought it was only the rich Right. That could do it. Or the reckless they didn't see. And definitely not people with kids because God forbid that would scar them and be so irresponsible. Right. So we felt it was really important to share this, but also share the reality of we do work. It's not always wonderful. Our kids do fight. We do fight because it doesn't do anyone any good if we wanna get more people out here and normalizing this more. It does no good to pretend it's something it's not. And you know, 'cause you have far more experience than us that after 20 years, you know, you know that it's not all good. And after seven years, years, we know that there's ups and downs and I mean we've, we had ups and downs from the beginning. The first five or six months totally sucked for us. We never thought, oh, we'd made a mistake. We never even once had a conversation about going back or did we make a mistake? Not one conversation, not even a 22nd month. 

Will:    00:15:06    But we weren't  really filming back then.  

Jessica:    00:15:07    We weren't filming. Yeah. <laugh>. But it wasn't, it was, you know, it was, it was awful. And we've had multiple transitions. We transitioned. It was a hard transition. We moved into the RV and the boat was a hard transition as well. But each transition brings something amazing. And I loved what you said about it's different on year one as it is year three, as it is year this, because I look at how much has changed and how we feel so differently about all of it and how we thought we knew so much after a year. And I don't feel that way now after seven years. Well, you don't really see it. 'cause I know---

Will:    00:15:41    --see it, you, you don't really see it though until you see it in someone else.

Kristin: Yes.

Will:  When you're year into, it's like, oh, I'm a year into it. I know what I'm doing after. Yeah.  

Jessica:    00:15:47    I'm a full-time traveler.  

Will:    00:15:48    After three years, you're like, oh my God, these rookies, what do they know? And then, you know, now we're, we're approaching ourselves here --

Jessica:    00:15:54    now at seven years. We know, we know now we know enough nothing. Yes.  

Will:    00:15:56    You know, you go back to  

Jessica:    00:15:57    The  

Kristin:    00:15:57    Beginning and you're like, I know nothing  

Will & Jessica:    00:15:59    <laugh>. Right. But, but we know, like, I like, you know, and I'm sure like, what, what we know now, we're going to sort of just negate five years from now. Yeah, exactly. But, but we're gonna say, you know, what did we know back then? Mercy we're only seven years into it. But it is a cycle. And it is sort of one of those things that you just, you have your good days, you have your bad days, and, and you, you, you hope that sort of, it all compensates at the end. But it, you know, what's the difference is the grass can be greener on the other side.   

Jessica:    00:16:27    I think it's, well like we always say it's a lifestyle choice. So I I, I always hesitate when I say we're full-time travelers. 'cause the first thing people think of is, is, oh, they're on a vacation all the time. But really it's just a life that moves. You know, we still pay bills, we still go to the doctors, we still fight. We still eat, we still have chores. Even if we're staying in a hostel, you know, we, if we're contributing to the community or that's part of the agreement. So it's just, it's just life with energy and wheels on it is what, what I like to think of it as, as opposed to it's, it's, it's traveling all the time. And so I was, I was just gonna say one thing 'cause it just came to my mind. I don't wanna forget I have this dream of like getting people, like people together.  

Jessica:    00:17:08    Like people that have been traveling for 20 years and like getting 'em in a room and just talking to them. Because I'm always curious about what it takes and what type of person stays out here for 20 years. Because that is, that is our, our goal. This is a lifestyle choice and this is, this is what we want to continue to do. But everyone that starts out traveling thinks they're gonna do it forever. Right. Everyone and most people that we've met are done after a year. They either run outta money or didn't work or they don't like it, or someone they're traveling with doesn't like it. Or the, if they have kids, the kids don't like it, whatever. Or it's not the vacation they thought it was gonna be. But I'm enamored by these people like yourself who have been out here, you know, for 20 years and we know a handful of them. And I'm always thinking, what, what is it for them that that either kept them out here? What, like they wanted to stay out. What were the tough times? How tough does it get at 10 years and 15 years? Is there a point there where the curve rather than going like this levels out  or is there a point, you know, you know what, there's, I have so many questions. So I think you need to do a podcast with those people. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:18:11    Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people that have been out that long are very, they just settle down. They're quiet about it. It's like they get to that point where they're like, oh, I don't know what, I don't know. They humble. Just living quiet existences in the, you know, in the French countryside or whatever. But, um  

Will:    00:18:30    Right. Or or they're in ashram in India or something like that.  

Kristin:    00:18:32    Right.  

Jessica:    00:18:33    <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:18:34    And so the only reason that I am that I speak out on this is because this comes from inside. I can't live with myself if I don't share this information. It's very hard to explain. I I actually feel like even if I didn't travel for the rest of my life, which I definitely will <laugh>, but, um, 'cause it's part of who I am, but even if I didn't, that it would be just as important and meaningful and cathartic if I just spent the rest of my life sharing what's already happened. <laugh>, I don't know if that makes sense. So...

Will: Totally.

Kristin: It's like expressing what I've seen and what I've learned and who I've met and being able to bring other travelers into the podcast and into the YouTube videos and creating this platform for it is so important. It's, it's more important I think, in hindsight than, than the actual traveling.  

Kristin:    00:19:33    Like, I think I had to travel this much to get here to where I can do this, but it's become more about that and helping other people travel versus like me just going out and having fun and traveling. I remember seeing people in the very first year that Remote Year launched the, the work travel program. Yeah. There were people in their first month of Remote Year, the first month of the first group of Remote Year. Right. So this is when the founders were still, like, they didn't know what they were doing, they were just figuring it out as they went along. And there were people then giving advice to other people after one month or three months traveling on this program where they're not even organizing anything. They're just along for the ride. Like creating these websites and Instagram profiles that like, this is how you, you know, become location independent in digital nomad.  

Kristin:    00:20:22    And I was just like, well, it's like a duty for me to go out and balance this perspective if we're gonna have a lot of people who've been doing it for one month or one year, they should still tell their stories and their truth and give their advice and document their experiences because they're showing the newness, like the freshman class of it. So their perspective is, is equally valuable. And then as they go along for years, if they continue with their personal brands, their audience grows with them and they grow. And, but there, there was a very big lack of the people who've been out for 15 or 20 years. It's besides a handful of travel writers or people, you know, like Rick Steves who aren't really nomadic. They're just based in like Rolf Potts based in Kansas. Right. But then go out and travel.  

Kristin:    00:21:13    And that is also a much different perspective. So anyway, long story short, I'm glad that you guys started documenting this, but I also have a lot of empathy for you. Empathy coming into this lifestyle at this time with technology because the first half of my, or more than half of my travel life was basically undocumented. It, it exists in notebooks and analog photographs that were printed out from film <laugh> and, you know, some digital cameras and like the Ner water disposable cameras, stuff like that. Right. <laugh>. Um, but it takes so much more energy for you to document the journey as you're going through it and then to edit and things after that that you must be under a lot of, um, a lot of stress and pressure. So how do you balance that with having your family?  

Will:    00:22:09    For me, it's almost a hundred percent of what I do in terms of, of the documenting and the editing. I mean, I'm not gonna say a hundred percent what I do because, because now that we're on a boat, I think the boat is equally sort of a hundred percent of what I do.   

Jessica:    00:22:22   But when you , when you say that--  

Will:    00:22:23    I have 200% of my time going  

Jessica:    00:22:24    On in regard to his work hours that he, that he spends on anything that's related to our business, he, he does spend, I would say 90% of his time on our channel. And he, I, I take care of everything else with our business and all client relations and then when, when we're going to meet with someone or chat with 'em or coach them or whatever, he'll, obviously he's gonna be on the call. Um, but he, it takes, you know, it's, thank you for recognizing how much energy and effort go into it because I think people are starting to realize how much goes into it. But I don't think they, they fully understand that he dedicates so much time to it and oth and other content creators do as well. And the, you know, the, the amount of hours he puts in and the time and the love equates, you know, there were, there were times where it equated to maybe a penny an hour. Like he did it, he did it for the love of it and wanting to share the truth of it and, and or  

Kristin:    00:23:19    Negative money per hours <laugh>.  

Jessica:    00:23:20    Right, right. Exactly. So I think you do, you don't do it for the money, you do it for the love and hopefully the money will come with things that you, that you, that you are producing. But he does it and has always done it for the love of it. Because if he did it for the money, we would've been done a long time ago. <laugh>, 

Will:    00:23:35    it's funny, when, when we did, when we did the, the commune to Santiago, so we hiked for 44 days across northern Spain and my backpack was filled with 60 to 70% gear to document the journey.  

Jessica:    00:23:49    He never changed his underwear 44 days

Will:    00:23:51     and like, and basically like, like maybe like 15% food and the rest was just clothing. And, and you know, everyone was saying, my God, your bag's so heavy. It's like, I know, I know. You know, and it doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I wound up like almost in the best shape of my life, <laugh> after that thing.  

Jessica:    00:24:06    Well, what do you, what do  

Will:    00:24:06    You, but, but I was carrying like five backup dryers, like these, you know, like, like massive like eight terabyte backup. I had like four of them in my backpacks because I had the ambition to go ahead and sort of be editing as we were walking. And I was gonna go back to the way back machine sort of reference all parts of our life, which never happened. I wound up carrying these things across northern Spain and I never used it. But I mean these are sort of, you did edit though. These were the, I, but I did edit while we were going along with the current stuff. But these were sort of the, the ideas like you get, you get in a thought in your head of how you wanna document something and you wanna make sure you have everything with you. And that's, you know, regardless of whether you're, you're, you know, on a backpack or in an RV or in a boat or you know, in an Airbnb. Um, and  

Jessica:    00:24:45    I think to give some context on that, we started this hike thinking we'll make a couple of logs. We were gonna hike for a little over a month, like a month and a half, we'll make a couple of logs. But you know, the majority of our time was hiking five or six, seven hours a day and then working on our business four or five hours a day, which most people who do this hike do not work. But we, we didn't, we did not have the finances or the luxury, nor do we wanna put our business on hold, you know, for that amount of time. So we decided we would do it. We would do the camino the best we could, which would mean we'd have to walk half the time and work half the time. And we had the kids with us and once we started it, we, we did a couple of vlogs and then we realized, wow, this is a pretty interesting thing. So, long story short, we ended up vlogging every single a couple days. We didn't, but we, I think we have like 40 vlogs.  

Will:    00:25:29    We didn't, the only thing we did not record were the rest days. That's it.   

Jessica:    00:25:32    So 44, I think it was like 40 ish vlogs of this. Now they were not released every day because he could not keep up with the editing to edit every day. Yeah. So, you know, I think probably a week's worth were edited by the, uh, and up by the time we finished. And then he spent several months editing the rest. And I think, I think it's the best series that we have on our channel because we were so, you know, you, you're asking, you know, at the, at the beginning of this question, and we're still yapping yap in all the different directions, but <laugh> was that, you know, how do, how do we do this? How do we manage this? You know, how how does this all happen? And the Camino was really special because we only had to focus on walking, shooting. And what we, what we also went there for was spend time with our kids.  

Jessica:    00:26:15    So walking and chatting with our kids, but we did not cook 'cause people cooked for us. Right. We did not, we did not have servants or anything like that coming with us. And that's how it works on the Camino, you, you, you can cook in the bargas and we did that some nights, but most nights we ate out for dinner and they make your bed and you know, so there's no cooking, there's no cleaning, there's no managing of basically any life stuff at all. You know, not putting gas in the car or whatever the case may be. So we could hyper-focus on just shooting and being present with our kids and walking. Yeah. And you can be present with your kids and walk and shoot at the same time. Yeah. It was fabulous. And we thought, my goodness, if we could just shoot like this all the time, but it's not, you know, it's not the reality of life.  

Jessica:    00:26:56    We have responsibilities and what whatnot. So I would say that it's not an easy task to have a YouTube channel, but if you love what you're doing, you believe what you're doing, it doesn't, the hours don't seem to, you know, to, to don't seem to bother you. And I think you have to really love it to be willing to put in all the hours that you know that, that go along with it. I, you know, you do most of the, most of the, you do all the editing and you do a lot of the shooting. Do you have more to add on that? It, it, it's  

Will:    00:27:22    A, it is, it's, he loves it. It's almost like, like a painful process. <laugh>, you hate it and then you love it and then you hate it again, and then you love it. It, you know, depends on where you are in the edit, um, or whether you captured the story right or not. It's like, how, you know, did I, how do I, it's like you look, you'll look at the footage and be like, oh my gosh, I I totally just missed the ball because I was so much in the moment I didn't hit record.  

Jessica:    00:27:45    And then it's fine once he edits it  

Will:    00:27:47    And then then, you know, you edit enough and you with enough voiceovers you can go ahead and sort of bridge the gaps and so forth. This  

Jessica:    00:27:52    Is the funny thing. I can, it was, and I've heard this from other editors, um, I've, I don't know about the female editors 'cause I know more male editors, but male editors are very honest about this, about how the process, and I'm assuming it's probably the same for females I'm not an editor is very painful. Like, he goes through like, almost like this, I wouldn't say abusive relationship, but all these emotions. It's pretty abusive with like pulling the footage together. And then the first couple hours of editing, he's just like manic. And then it, you know, it goes like that and then, and then it, then it starts to even out and he's like, this is gonna be pretty good. And I'm like, oh, thank God. Here we go. Another week through the therapy. You know, it's a creative process. It's, it's a creative process.  

Jessica:    00:28:31    Which, but what is so funny is I'm an accountant. He's an accountant by Trade <laugh>. So he was a corporate accountant guy in the suits with, you know, with, with staff and all this kind of stuff. And very, I mean, his personality was always very kind of alternative and carefree. I've been with him for over 20 years, so that hasn't really changed. But he had a very different career path for the majority of the time that I have been with him. So to see him in a situation where work makes him emotional, I'd never seen that before. Like, his work gets him emotional.  

Will:    00:29:04    Unless I couldn't get an Excel sheet to do what I wanted to do, I, I always, I always thought of spreadsheets as like an art form as well because you can really craft it just right.   

Jessica:    00:29:12    But you still remained very composed even when those emotions were there. Like you never really saw them on his face if he was dealing with something accounting wise. But when he's editing the videos, you just see it on his face, like the highs, the lows, the this, the that. And I think it's really interesting to look at it from my side, you know, often my side of the table. 'cause we're often either working like this close together in the RV or across from each other and I can tell when it's going well or when it's not. And then, you know, he'll say, oh, we probably should have shot this differently. Or Wow, you were in a really bad mood that day. Or you know, just stuff like that that you don't, you see once you, once you're editing a video, you see it and then you look at yourself back and you're going, wow, I was in a bad mood that day. What was wrong with me? You know, why'd I have such a bad attitude? You become hypercritical too. You know, I think in most situations  

Will:    00:29:58    I have some serious blackmail.   

Kristin:    00:29:59    Yeah,  

Jessica:    00:30:00    You some serious blackmail.

Kristin:    00:30:00    You start to really learn a lot about yourself and then you also realize how much your emotions change throughout the day and in different places and in relation to your environment. And so editing can be really enlightening in that sense, but it's also this creative process that you have to trust and everyone knows what it feels like to be creatively blocked or to feel blocked at work or blocked in your side hustle or your hobby. And there are still videos from three years ago that I haven't edited because for whatever reason, like I can't bring myself to get through that hard part of the editing process where it's just a complete mess, but it is like a rollercoaster and then by the end you're like, huh, I think I actually like this. But you can't get there unless you go through the whole other part.  

Kristin:    00:30:46    Yeah. And so I wanna circle back to your previous professions because I did read in another interview that the, you guys used to work, you know, 30, 40 hours a week full-time corporate jobs and then now you might work 70 hours a week each or 80. But, but that it's worth it because you're working in something that you like. And I'm of the opinion that everybody is creative. I love that book The Artist's Way. And I just think that there is a creator buried in each person. I totally agree. But that gets capped in the traditional education system and it just doesn't get to come out until later. And I think this has a lot to do with like the midlife crisis and all that stuff, is that people realize that they never actually started to live the way they wanted to live. They were just following the rules. And we know that those rules, two plus two does not add up to enlightenment in the western system. <laugh>. So how did you go from being an accountant? Did you know that you wanted to do something creative or was it when you picked up the video camera and started documenting your family that you realized you were creative in doing that work and then just kind of were drawn into that? Like, do you feel like that was part of your life path?  

Will:    00:32:06    It was kind of like that. I mean,  

Jessica:    00:32:08    He's been a repressed artist his whole life.   

Will:    00:32:10    So I, I mean like, like, like I said before, I've always sort of loved to express how creative I can get with whatever I can get my hands on. Now, back in the day that was, you know, spreadsheets and so forth and so on because that's all I had. 'cause I, I didn't have, you know, I didn't have a smartphone. I didn't have a camera to go from. But one day when we, it was actually the day after we got back from our first journey from, um, as a family, we went for a summer to, to Paris because our kids were in a French immersion program in Boston. And we, we thought to ourselves, it'd be a great experience for our kids to actually spend a summer in Paris so that they can exercise the language that they're learning in the public schools in the us you know, what's great.  

Will:    00:32:51    And I, I had to come back before they came back because I had work obligations. And the day after I returned, I was alone. And it, there was, there was a sale at, at REI um, they had their garage sale. So it's like when they said like the, like three or four times a year, they sell all their returns. And I was like, okay, I need to pick up one or two things just because they have some good deals. And I happened to stumble across a GoPro that was on sale for a hundred bucks. And this was back in 2013. It was the GoPro three silver plus whatever it was. And, and it was, you know, for a hundred bucks it was a good deal. And my birthday just passed and I was like, okay, birthday present to myself.  

Jessica:    00:33:34    You know, they say when, when the wife's away, the husband will play, Will's play is going to r e i up for the sale. Yeah,  

Will:    00:33:40    Yeah. <laugh>. So, so I mean, I went ahead and, and and I bought it and I was like, okay, you know, happy birthday to me. And, and I was like, okay, I have this thing, what am I gonna do with it? And you know, when I got home, I, you know, I, I'm a tech guy, so  

Jessica:    00:33:52    He put it in the bathtub.  

Will:    00:33:53    So I, you know, I put in the sim sd card and I, I, I was like, wow, this thing actually shoots really well. This is my first time ever playing with a GoPro. Um, and I played on the laptop. I was like, you know, this thing's like genuine, like HD quality, um, the audio stinks, but who caress? So we, we, we took it with us on several, like, family trips. This was the year before we launched on our full-time travel journey. Yeah. 

Jessica:    00:34:15   So after  Paris, we made the decision to come back and we were gonna make this happen on our own. And so we gave ourselves 12 months, sold everything, all that kind of stuff.  

Will:    00:34:22    So right. But in the meantime, as we were preparing to, to sort of launch, we were still in the, in the, in the thick of things. And then we had a few like family vacations that we went to went skiing and so forth and so on. And I, I was, I was, I started to google like, you know, what do you do with a GoPro? And everything I saw was like skiing videos. I was like, I'm gonna make a skiing video <laugh>. And I was like, I have no idea how to do this <laugh>. So, you know, here I am, I'm recording. Like any, any, you know, guy would like, oh, I'm gonna record everything. Hey, you know, smile and yada yada. And, and you know, it was like home. Well it is home movies. And then the first night after we, we were skiing, um, I was like, you know, what can I do with this? So I started researching how to edit. And then GoPro studio, like GoPro has its own editing software  

Kristin:    00:35:05    On the phone.  

Will:    00:35:06    Uh, it has it on the phone now, but back then it was, it was just on the computer.   

Jessica:    00:35:10    This was back before phones and cars.   

Kristin:    00:35:12    That's how I learned. I think it was like 2017 was in the GoPro app.  

Will:    00:35:17    Yeah. And, and so I, I, I, you know, I, I realize that it's really not hard. You know, you just, you click a button and you slice things together and you put on some, you know, some music that if you put it on, you know, YouTube or video today, you'd hit with a copyright strike, but it doesn't make a difference back then.  

Jessica:    00:35:34    You could do it back then

Will:    00:35:34     You could do it. And, and I, I created my first first video. I was like, ah, I made that. You know, it was, it was actually pretty cool. And it just started to, to light a fire saying if I could do that, you know, maybe I can do something more. And I wasn't trying to get better, I was just trying to document our life. And it was, it was just a lot of fun. Yeah.  

Jessica:    00:35:52    It all started by wanting to create these journals for our kids and evolved into more and I think Right. 

Will:    00:35:57    And  those are awful. And, but they still sit there on Vimeo, which no one has access to because it's under,  

Kristin:    00:36:02    But they're better than like old home video clips, you know, from  

Jessica:    00:36:05    Right on the big camcorder, right?

Kristin: Yeah. Right. 

Jessica & Will:    00:36:08    I think that we have 'em on it. We have 'em on, on our Vimeo channel, which it's not even Cultural Town. It's like a cult something else. I dunno.  

Jessica:    00:36:14    Probably call their name or something, so.  

Will:    00:36:16    Right, right. So somewhere in-- stalk us, they probably couldn't find it, but, but it's theirs, it's ours. We can see them. And it's actually kind of awesome.

Jessica:    00:36:20     I think what's interesting about Will and his creativity from, you know, someone who's been with him for a long time and knows his whole story is that, you know, you were, you were talking about you believe everyone has creativity in them. And I absolutely agree, and I wholeheartedly agree that most traditional educations stifle that or don't even let it come out in, in, in a child. And then we learned from a lot our early age that there's no value in this. And, you know, it's, it's not, you're not gonna make any money. And obviously being American, that is a big focus, right? People are always like, how could you ever make money being an artist? How could you ever make money doing that? People don't make money doing that. And then you get it in your head. And for Will, will grew up in a fa he was, he went to an all boys school.  

Jessica:    00:37:03    It was geared towards, even though some artists came out of there and a couple of good actors, it was really geared towards creating the professional man, the respectable professional man, the haircut, the suit, the collar shirts. And so I don't think that, you know, he's Latino, so there's all art all around him and in him and it's in his blood. But I don't think he was ever, from an education standpoint, he got a great education in a traditional sense. But I don't think he was ever able or given the opportunity to exercise any type of creativity. 'cause it just wasn't looked at as respectable work. So I believe you that this I agree. I'm sorry. Not that I believe you, I agree with you that this is in and back. You know, he's 50 now. So back, you know, all those years ago, this, now we're evolving a bit and parents are starting to realize this and demand it in their education.  

Jessica:    00:37:51    And if they don't for their kids, and if they don't get it, they'll go elsewhere or they'll homeschool. But back then it was unheard of. So this creativity, I believe has always been in him, but it's never been given the ability to shine. And he was never, I mean, he is a competent guy, but he still was never told that that could even be an option. And we're so conditioned by the way we were raised and what society puts around us, that to even just break outta, that's even difficult. So I'm, I'm so proud and so happy that he was even actually able, uh, honey <laugh> to break out. But, you know, break out of it in, you know, in his middle age, in his mid forties, especially with everything that was kind of thrown at us. Like, what are you doing giving up this great career? What are you, do you know?  

Kristin:    00:38:31    Yeah. That's the key is that no one in that traditional system will tell you that this is possible. That this lifestyle that we're all living now is possible. And these days kids can just go online if they wanna learn something, you know, they can get hyped up watching their favorite vlogger or Gary V or whoever, and they're like, I'm gonna go learn it on my own. But before, and for people that are, that are older, like, we didn't have that access. And I, I remember in school, like music class consisted of playing the recorder and because those recorder flutes cost what, $5 probably. And so everyone can get one. Maybe they were $2, but I hated playing that recorder. And I only had access to the instruments in music class with like 30 other kids. So it wasn't until this year that I learned how to dj.  

Kristin:    00:39:23    Like I, my grandfather played violin and I, I always was interested in music, but I never had tangible access to the instruments that were, that I wanted to play. I didn't know what they were. I just knew that I liked music. You know, fast forward a few decades and it's, it's actually electronic turntable, you know, it's, it didn't exist back then, but it's the same with art class. Like maybe you get to go to painting class or drawing class. I always thought I was really bad at art and not creative because I was bad at drawing and painting. Um, but you know, if you had access to photography or sculpture or welding, oh my gosh. I met this girl in Costa Rica. So the first year that I studied abroad when I was 20, I was at the this language school in Costa Rica. We'll talk about your Costa Rica journey.  

Kristin:    00:40:16    And I remember this girl had been there for a few months before me, and she was from somewhere in the Midwest. And one day I walk into the school and she's wearing full welding gear, <laugh>, like the mask and everything. She'd been there for like three months. She spoke fluent Spanish at that point, and she was welding metal. Like, she had discovered this love of welding because her host family in Costa Rica, the dad was a welder. So here she was on her break in Spanish school, welding metal. Oh, that's so cool. By the, by the cafeteria <laugh>. And I was just like, what is going on? So it's like traveling gives you that ability to discover these interests that you didn't even know you had, or you had like a hint that you might be interested in it, but you never got exposure to it.  

Kristin:    00:41:03    And so I think that's really important for people to take away and, and also the possibility that they are creative in some way. They just haven't uncovered what that was. And, and if you pick up that GoPro, or if you are, let's say, I'm gonna use my dad as an example, sorry dad, if you're watching <laugh>. But my dad used to love model trains, model cars, the little helicopters that fly with the remote control. Yeah. And just as you were talking, I started thinking of my dad and thinking maybe he should have been working on like a race team. You know, maybe his creativity was in building cars Yeah. Or fixing cars. But instead he became a lawyer and he never really enjoyed that profession. So it's like, you know, if you start to get a hint of that, it's never too late. Like Robert Greene, the author, he says, it's never too late to start this process of figuring out who you are and like, uncovering your true essence and self. So you can be in your eighties or night as long as you're still alive and breathing, you can start down this process.  

Jessica:    00:42:09    I love that. Because, you know, we're not 20 years in, we're almost seven years in. And the changes, uh, that we've made in our life and ourself and the come to Jesus moments, I guess, is that what people say? Yeah. Uh, things we've learned about ourselves that we had no idea were just so culturally, or even the way we were raised ingrained in us.  

Kristin:    00:42:33 Like programmed, yeah.  

Jessica:    00:42:34    And I don't know if you've, I don't know if you've read the book Untamed, um, no. But her, the, the author is Glennon Doyle and she just started a podcast and I just, I just listened to the re the most recent one, which was just about how to have fun. And she was, she realized that from a very young age, she had never learned how to have fun because it was part of her family culture. Her parents worked all the time. And so she didn't realize, she didn't really learn how to have fun until after divorce three kids. And then she married a woman. And this woman is a former soccer player who loves to have fun <laugh>. And she was like, I'm gonna teach her how to have fun. Let's, anyway, the podcast is very interesting. But she digs deep into, you know, these things that are, that are so in us that we never challenge and we never think about.  

Jessica:    00:43:21    And I have this theory that I always say to Will, that those things will come out. They will just come out at the most inopportune time when you don't have all the tools you need to deal with, to deal with whatever's coming to the surface. Whether it's childhood trauma, whether it's not following your true path, whether it's what you know, what gender you're attracted to, any of it. And we've had a lot of these moments in the seven years where we're, we've had conversations about, you know what, this doesn't work for me. I don't know why I've been doing this my whole life.  

Kristin:    00:43:49    What are some of those things? Could you give us some examples?  

Jessica:    00:43:54    Um, I think probably one of 'em would be this need to feel like I have to do, I have to be a great mom, a great professional, a great partner, all of these things, but never holding a partner to the same standard. Now I'm very fortunate with Will there, we're not really a pink and blue job type of type of couple. He steps up to the plate, he pulls his weight, he cooks, he cleans, he parents. But I had this in my head that I had to meet all these expectations that I had created upon myself that he did not thrust upon me. And I know people who have, who are with partners who thrust that upon them, which could be even worse. But I had this idea of who I was supposed to be as a woman, how I was supposed to be behave.  

Jessica:    00:44:35    And it just about killed me trying to be the perfect mother, the perfect partner, the perfect business owner. And once we, you know, because since we've been traveling, we're together 24/7. We talk a lot. We have a lot of conversations. We call them, let's go take out the trash. We go for a walk, we dig deeper into something. We've really kind of dissected this and where does it come from? 'cause it's clearly not coming from him, but it's coming from a part of society. A part of how I was raised, my mom did a lot, my dad was a workaholic as well, but my mom also did all of that plus took care of the kids and the doctor's appointments and all these things. He grew up in a very similar home. And it was so in me that I didn't feel like I was worthy of anything because I was trying to meet all these standards that I, that I could not meet. And when I did meet him, I felt value, but I was, felt unhappiness, if that makes sense. And I asked  

Will:    00:45:24    You of nothing of that.   

Jessica:    00:45:26    It's, Oh no, and this is, this is completely me in my bubble. This has nothing to do with him. He is so progressive. It's unbelievable. But if these are the things we push upon ourselves, we don't even realize, you know what, how I started to realize was I was removed from my community. I have male friends, female friends, whatever. But most of my female friends were in that same category. They were not all, they were not all parents. Half of my female friends don't have children. But it was still that I gonna be the best at everything I do.  

Will:    00:45:54    It's funny because when, when we moved to Costa Rica, she was living, like you said, like if you saw pictures of us beforehand and then after, you know, it's, it's a stark change. And when we were leaving, she was, she was in the midst of like, I wouldn't say it was, it was a bit, a bit of a transformation <laugh> in, in terms of like, because you know, she has gray hair and she used to dye, you know, brown because that was sort of the, the expectation that, you know, why would someone in their, in their thirties still allow sort of grays to be shown.

Jessica:    00:46:29     Yeah. It was premature gray. And I would color it constantly. And,  

Will:    00:46:31    And I kept telling you, what on earth are you doing? Let it go gray. You know, I like the, the eccentric English teacher look, <laugh>, um, you know, it's, it's all good.  

Jessica:    00:46:39    I think exact words were French literature teachers are very sexy.  

Will:    00:46:42    Right, right, right.  

Jessica:    00:46:43    Like, we don't speak French. Um, no, it's true. And I, and now as you can see, I'm, this is, this is all gray. I colored, I put the pink in there too. But it's, it's, it's gray and I've embraced that and love that. But, but I think there were, there were a lot of other things that surfaced. Um, one thing that we just, we haven't come to the point that we're prepared to talk about it. So today won't be the day either, but childhood trauma, mm. You know, things like these surface, everything stripped away. We've had clients that have had problems within their relationship. We were very fortunate that was not the case with us. We've had clients who the relationship was going about and going their own way and whatever, while they were living the stationary life, everything was fine. But once they started traveling, all this stuff that was the problem that they've burnt, you know, buried rose to the top, you know, and they were like, what do we do?  

Jessica:    00:47:31    How do we deal with this? We've known people that have gotten divorced, separated, whatever the case may be after traveling together because they found their true path, whatever that was, whether it was travel or not travel, they found their true path. And it really wasn't with the person they thought they should be with a along the way. They had just kind of gone with the motions and didn't wanna divorce. 'cause what would the family say or or whatnot, all these, you know, all these different things. Can you think of some other things that have come to the surface that  

Will:    00:47:55    It's just, it just really, you know, like anything else, you know, once you, this all goes back to sort of when you travel, you, you're, you're always in a state of quasi chaos and you're always in a state of uncomfortable. And when you're uncomfortable, you sort of don't have a routine. And when you don't have a routine, everything gets exposed. Once you get exposed, you know, everything that you've been bearing, like she said, you know, it is just comes out and you can't hide it. And, and I even  

Jessica:    00:48:23    Think things like  

Will:    00:48:24    You either, you either sort of self combust and, and sort of, or, or, or you, or you or you flourish. I, and, and the question is, you know, what are you gonna do once you realize what that thing is and, and you can't hide it anymore.  

Jessica:    00:48:39    And, and even in within our relationship, 'cause I mean no relationship's perfect, but I think we do have a really good relationship. But there were many years where he was traveling a ton and we were ships passing in the night and you know, maybe he'd get home at 10 o'clock on a Friday night and do something that would annoy me. But I just kind of look past it. 'cause he'd be like, well he's leaving again on Monday, whatever. Now we really can sit down and say, you know what, this really, we're together all the time, so we cannot, if something's bothering us about each other, we better put it right on the table. 'cause we're gonna get pissed real fast if we're dealing with this 24/7, right? Yeah. But now we'll say, you know, that really bothers me and rather than that really bothers me.  

Jessica:    00:49:16    Let's have a fight. Like, we'll go take the trash and we'll have a chat about it and be like, okay, so I see what you meant by that and you didn't really mean what I thought you meant. And you know, you know, there's just, there's so many more deeper conversations. Um, and even, even with our children just being able to have those conversations, things that they wanna talk about, things that they're curious about, what we, can we stop, we'll stop our work in the middle of the day. If one of them is having a crisis or struggling with something or just curious about something, our workday may start at eight in the morning and end at midnight and still may only actually be eight hours of work on our business because we've stopped throughout the day and these are, these are choices that we've made, you know, but then it's helped us get to know our kids better, you know, and what makes them tick and what doesn't and what, where their struggles are and how to help 'em with that.  

Kristin:    00:50:02    Maybe that's what the new normal should look like. I don't think it was what we've been living for the past 50 years as a western society. I don't think that it's the conditions that the pandemic brought about where everyone was on lockdown and everyone in the corporate world was in eight hours of zoom meetings every day on top of having the kids home and like no structure and no place to work and you know, all that stuff. But maybe it's something that kind of melds the old with the new like, because people used to work from home throughout history, unless they were Yeah. Until factories. But before that it was like, maybe they would go out onto the farm or maybe they would go, you know, over to the marketplace or into the castle to work for the Lord <laugh> in the manor. Right. But there is still that tribal element and community element that we've been missing in post-industrial times.  

Kristin:    00:50:58    And there is also that rhythm of interaction with your partner and with your kids that got like, almost completely severed. Like people just became kind of nights and weekends sorts of families. Yeah. And that's not really natural either. And so maybe in this post pandemic world, when people have more flexibility about where they work, how much they work, hopefully we can evolve out of that workaholic mindset being more present with our partners, with our kids, and just kind of having more stability and also being able to lean more on the people that we're meeting along the way. Because ideally they're living a similar lifestyle, not commuting four hours a day to big office buildings where they're isolated from people and then they become closer with their coworkers than they do with their own family members.  

Jessica:    00:51:52    I love it. And I think there's, kind of what I've seen through the pandemic is there's like two sides to this. People kind of all of a sudden being thrown into being with their family partner, dog, whatever, 24/7 is that some of 'em really loved it in the beginning. And then were like, Uhuh, this honeymoon stage is over. I don't wanna do it anymore. Like when they were done baking bread and playing games, you know, and then there's others that hated it and went through that transition of four months of ugh. And Will found their, their sweet spot. So I'm not, I'm not naive to think that everyone should, you know, some relationships, some partnerships, some parenting, some relationships work better and some parent child relationships work better if you're not with them 24/7. You know, it just, I've seen it with people. Some, some, some mom, I'll use moms for example.  

Jessica:    00:52:39    Moms are better moms when they go to the office for the day and can focus on things that they wanna focus on and they don't necessarily wanna be home with the kids all day. And that that's okay. You know, some partners are better when they have their time apart and then they come together and then some do really well when they're together, you know, 24/7. So there's all different kinds of ways to do this. But I agree with you that, that this kind of being ships passing at the, in the night, like really literally constantly being ships passing at the night is such a weird thing to me. And it seems so weird because then I, I look at it and think, well then what kind of, what's the point of having a partner? Because having a partner and having children is not all rainbows and unicorns. So why would I wanna just be ships passing at night and be around for all the kind of shit and not the enjoyment of it. Right. And you know, and that often happens when your ship's passing at night. We had many years like that. So I feel like I can actually speak from some experience with that.  

Will:    00:53:33    But the other thing though that the pandemic has shown us is because for instance, a lot of people had a difficult time with, you know, when, when they were stripped away from their office environment and stripped away from their kids being in the class with other kids, you know, the whole idea of the socialization, because people don't, people were used to sort of being hyper social all the time because it was for socialization. And then there's us on the other hand who we're used to just being the four of us 24/7. Uh, but yet we still had sort of pockets of social over time that we would go out and, and sort of interact in different cultures and sort of go out there and, and experience something new, so forth and so on. I think in the beginning we were able to, to manage very well because we were, because this wasn't such a, an immediate shock to the system. But eventually even for us who are used to being isolated more than most as as a, as a unit, it got to us.  

Jessica:    00:54:30    Yeah. We miss the social  

Will:    00:54:30    Like a, within like a six month. And I think it sort of, if anything this this pandemic hit everyone the hardest just because, you know, you start to realize it's people do need people. Yeah. And as much as you know, there, there, there are introverts out there who say that, you know, well this is perfect for me. You know, introverts need people too. They're just, you know, they just don't like to go ahead and make the first step. And, and it's, you know, at, at the end of the day, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm really grateful that things are opening up again. You know, because it, it really, it makes you appreciate those people and whether, you know, you have to do something for an obligation or not, which used to dread once upon a time. Now it's like obligation. Yeah. Okay. You know, I'm okay with it for now. You know, and it's,  

Jessica:    00:55:10    It's funny 'cause we're having, we're having someone that was in our world, Tanning University, 

Will:    00:55:15   which is not an obligation.  

Jessica:    00:55:16    She's, She's not now. No. She's coming on Saturday and she's like, she's gonna hang out with us. And she's like, well, do you wanna do lunch or do you wanna do dinner? What do you guys wanna do? And I said, we'll do lunch and dinner if that's not too much <laugh>. She goes, yeah, yeah. And she's like, I was hoping you'd say that. I'm like, Leanne, we, we love her and her daughter. And we're like, we miss people. We miss social, we love you guys. You know, there's a lot to chat about. Let's go out to lunch, come back, hang out on the boat then we'll then we'll cook you guys dinner. You know, it was like, we'll take all the social we can get, we'll hang out with you all day. 'cause I, I do agree with Will that, you know, there are times where we need to recharge. There are times where we wanna be alone just individually as a couple and as a family. Um, but at the end of the day, we still really, really miss really miss the connection to people a lot. You know?  

Will:    00:56:01    And now we live on a boat, so it's like instant isolation, right. <laugh>. Yeah. So, so we gotta so in what we can, right, right.  

Jessica:    00:56:08    We gotta get people when we can <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:56:10    Yeah. You bring up a good point. And, and that's something I noticed coming back to the US is that I realized after so many months that I wasn't even making an effort to integrate with my own home country. It's like all of my efforts were going to meet people in these other countries. And then I came home and I kind of ignored my own surroundings. And it, like a year into this, I thought, oh my gosh, I haven't even tried to make friends here <laugh>. Like, 'cause I was so, my mindset was like, oh, I'm just here temporarily and then I'm gonna leave again. Yeah. And that was a bad pattern that I had to consciously break and start to, to integrate here while also keeping that door open for travel. So I think that all of us can give some good advice on how to keep that perspective and that balance for people that are either out traveling now or that are planning to go so that they know what to expect. So I love the way, like how this conversation has gone, but I wanna give people some background information on how, you know, how you got here after seven years. So can you bring us back to what your life was like before you made that decision to move and why you wanted to leave your white picket fence life?  

Will:    00:57:26    This was, this was a long time in the making.  

Kristin:    00:57:29    Yeah.  

Jessica:    00:57:29    We're not an overnight success.

Will:    00:57:30    Right, right.  

Kristin:    00:57:34    Thank you so much for listening today. If you liked this episode, why not leave us a review? Badass Digital Nomads has been downloaded more than 150,000 times around the world, but only 72 people have left reviews, my family members included. So, you know, it only takes a minute to leave a review and it really helps other like-minded people and aspiring travelers find the show. So you can leave a review wherever you listen or at Lovethepodcast.com/digitalnomad for a handy list of links and places to leave a review or if you'd like to support the show financially. Because every single episode of Badass Digital Nomads to date has been ad free and self-funded by yours Truly. Head on over to badassdigitalnomads.com/donate and you can buy us coffees, donate some PayPal, Bitcoin, and more. That's at badassdigitalnomads.com/donate. And a special thank you to everyone who has made contributions to the show to date, and also to all of my patrons over at patreon.com/TravelingwithKristin.