Sic Transit Vir | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. And Jeff, you know what we did when we were going through our first watch of this? Rated it with deltas and really made a lot of people mad? We did that. We did. Do you know what else we did? What else? We also looked for messages. We did do that. We haven't stopped that. We're looking for messages. We're looking for messages we didn't catch the first time, or maybe messages we've forgotten. We're catching them for a second time. Whatever it is, we are still looking for those sci-fi messages we find in the series. You know, those things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, or maybe just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, you have heard that this is Babylon 5 for the second time, which means Jeff and I have gone through the entire series for the first time for ourselves. We did that on our previous episode.

[2:00] Phase of the show, Jeff, I guess. It's not really a different show. It's the same show. But if you guys just scroll back up, you guys can get that. Now, that being said, this is a warning to anyone and everyone out there who has not watched this show for the first time. You need to stop this show right now that you're listening to. Go back and join us in our first watch. That's perfectly fine. That's completely spoiler free. But you don't want to do this because from this point forward anything from any point in the timeline from anywhere in the franchise not just within Babylon 5 but anywhere within the franchise extra canonical in universe canon whatever it's all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about so this is your one and only spoiler warning it is time for you my friends to press the go button and leave why are you still here go go Right this week, we're watching Seek Transit Vir for the second time.

[3:03] I remember the first time that we watched this one, I was blown away by, like, I thought this was going to be kind of a fun, you know, this will be some vir thing. He's going to be emperor. It's going to be pretty great. A lot of fun. And holy crud, it took a different tack. But one of the things I really remember out of this one for me was to this point, such a fan of Veer, always have been a fan of Veer, but I thought this was a real backslide for him in his character development and in the advancements that we've been seeing. But overall, I remember really appreciating this episode. Do you remember what you thought about it the first time? I do. I do. But before we go any further, I have to correct something.

[3:49] Our friend Andrew in our council chambers who are joining us live is ripping us a new one right now because we keep mispronouncing it, Jeff. We do. Seek transit weir is how it is supposed to be pronounced. According to Andrew anyway. I don't know if that's right or not, but I'm gonna believe Andrew and I'm gonna go with that. Seek transit weir. In seek transit weir, here's what I remember. This is the Abraham O. Lincolnio thing. Oh yeah, yeah.

[4:13] Which I thought was the dumbest name possible. Abraham O. Lincolio. Like that's about us talking about Giorgio Washingtonian. Like we know who these people are. This is not some person out of history that, that nobody knows. Now, granted, this is Vera's a Centauri pulling a character out of earth history. So maybe it's a little more, just a little more discreet, But still, like, come on, come on. Can we not come up with a better name? That said, I absolutely love the symbolism for what he was doing. And we'll dive into that as we get into the episode. This is also the one with his betrothed. You said you felt like this kind of took him backwards. In my memory, this one actually shoots him forward a little bit. In my memory. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember thinking that about this one. But, Jeff, that's what I think I remember. I know what you remember. Do you now? I do. Actually, I don't know what you remember, but I remember what you said. I have what you said. I got it right here. All right. What did I say? I went back. I listened to our first time episode on this one. And, Brent, you really liked this one. You laughed a lot through the episode, even though it wasn't very comedic. You thought it was.

[5:36] Oh, that sounds like me. Okay. I like this piece, though, because you said it was, you figured on a second, third, fourth watch, we would actually see how good and important this episode is. Oh. So looking forward to today, then. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So we were on very opposite sides on this one. I really wanted to love the episode. Like, I was excited about Sheridan and Delenn almost kissing. But overall, I thought this episode was just a mess. Two step forwards, three steps back for Veer. and I felt just overall it was trying for a lot, but it missed the mark. You had a big question in this one that I don't think ever gets answered, at least not in what we've experienced in the series. Okay. So one of the things that Veer is on tap to do is consummate the marriage. And your question was, does it take one, two, all six? Yeah. When does consummation happen? Okay. I hated, hated the ending on this. No, stop. You can't leave it at that. That's it. We had no answer to it. You're just curious. I'm still curious. I'm asking the community right now. Yeah. What is it? Is it at four?

[6:48] Yeah. At what point does it count? Yeah. Andrew with the answer. It's a very JMS answer. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I hated the ending of this episode so much. I felt like it turned Veer into just a middle school boy going all starry-eyed. Oh this hardcore bigot just gave me a little kiss and so i'm all twitter painted about it which really led us to arguing about veer quite a bit i thought he was just like head over heels over lindisty and just wasn't holding his own you felt that he's coming from a place where he's in over his head he's outnumbered he has no safe harbor he's in a situation where he couldn't have really stood up to Londo or Lindesty. And so he was just doing what he had to do to survive and get through it. My guy Veer, man. He's doing what he has to do. We were really upset with Ivanova.

[7:47] In this one were we uh we went off for a good chunk of time so she talks to veer privately and veer shares a lot of his abraham olinconi stuff yeah and then londo shows up and she straight up throws him under the bus oh veer's doing all this stuff the most important thing that came out of this episode though and i have a note to put this link in our show notes so i'm saying it here to remind myself but this episode really deals with racism and bigotry in a in a very direct way which led to us referencing the best episode of beam me up a star trek podcast which is far beyond the stars yeah yeah it's it's i still maintain to this day it is the single most important podcast episode i have ever done in the now thousands of episodes that i have produced yeah it's uh that one stands above above the rest it's incredible i'm telling everybody like i'll put the link in the in the show notes listen to it it's it's a it's a perspective changing and for some people potentially a life-changing uh episode and and it's not me by the way i just want to be really clear.

[8:50] This is not self-promotion on my part no it is it is not me it's somebody else yeah you and you and matt did a beautiful job of really just getting out of the way on that one thank you yeah it was excellent very well done and something everyone needs to listen to especially coming off the subject matter of this one but that's what i got out of this one uh you scoured the web for things that joe michael straczynski may have said about this episode you got anything.

[9:19] Oh we've got a few we've got a few it's not a ton this is this isn't you know severed dreams or anything like that but there there is some stuff jeff originally this episode in the next one a late delivery from avalon were intended to be shown in flip-flopped order this was supposed to be late delivery and next week was supposed to be this particular one but they wound up flipping them for two reasons. One, after Ceremonies of Light and Dark, they needed something lighter. And we all know late delivery from Avalon...

[9:45] Isn't just just isn't that light like the first 20 minutes of it or so are but the back half just no also michael york is the guest star now for all the ways that i will decry that particular episode i will fully admit michael york is a huge get he's a big time guest star and it just so happens that when these two episodes were airing the second of the two weeks was sweeps week so they wanted to put the michael york guest star episode in during sweeps week which makes all the sense in the world. Also, according to JMS, he wrote them so they could actually be shown in any order. There was no correct order. It's just, this is the way they were first going to do it. And then they flipped flopped it. That makes sense. Now, as to the title, seek transit. We're you, my friend have since our first episode, if I remember correctly.

[10:31] Really referenced and talked about the Latin, the Catholic meaning of this. Sic transit gloriais mundi. And that means? There goes the beautiful world or something like that. Yeah, that's it. But according to JMS and according to our friend Andrew, who took Latin, I guess, the actual translation of sic transit vir translates to thus passes the man. I guess vir in Latin is man. Okay. I had no idea. I didn't know that. I'm not a Latin person. I'm just going by what JMS and now two people have confirmed for me. So two very smart people that we have a lot of respect for. There we go. There we go. JMS says, Jeff, and this is where I find your interpretation of Vera's progress in this story a little interesting. Although we do know sometimes JMS intends for one thing and it hits us very, very differently, which means I'm also really excited to see how this may or may not change for you here on the second viewing. But here's what he says. This is an episode of transition for Veer. Specifically, it's where he becomes a man. Okay. Thus passes the man. It is meant both, the title is meant both as a pun and something that is accurately describing what happens in the episode. Veer takes on a new level of responsibility.

[11:51] He, you know, he kind of steps into manhood, so to speak, in this episode. So even if that's not what we interpret it as, I want to be looking at it through those eyes to see what JMS was trying to say. And I think I know where he's going with that. I'm going to try not to interpolate my expectations on top of that. But I think I know where he's going, and so I'll be interested to look at this episode through that thing. Yeah, it makes me think about like there's kind of –, if i remember right kind of i mean there's the londo and veer story which is really tied around.

[12:23] The abraham lincolni stuff we see jokey mcjokerson for the first time i think this is where he earns the nickname because he tells the joke about the narn i think we've seen him before now yes but like this is where he becomes jokey mcjokerson oh okay fair enough yeah because this is where he talks about the how many narns does it take to it's either what's what he says what's scarier than a room full of angry narns or something like that he's like one narn with the key yeah yeah or something like that yeah maybe it's not in this one it was just like this one has the door opening to a whole bunch and i forget what it is but it's it's part of the jokey mcjokerson canon all right overall the story of jokey mcjokerson that's that's a podcast exclusively by bad nerds that's an episode for us to dive into but uh but like i feel like there's that story for veer and then there's the lindesty story for him and i can totally see this story the whole narin piece and whatever being that in my memory it's the lindesty story where it's just like oh dude bad look man bad look yeah yeah we'll see.

[13:26] We'll see. Jeff, you know how in literature you have character archetypes? Yeah, absolutely. You've got the hero. You've certainly got the villain. The prophet is one of the main characters. Have you ever heard of the type of character, the archetype, God's fool? God's fool. No. God's fool. So God's fool is the character in literature that presumably is rather inept or has no business making it through. But yet somehow they manage to survive everything. They make it through everything. Sounds a little bit like Veer. JMS refers to Veer as his God's full character for this series. Now, if you understand what that means, and JMS is saying this in real time, then, spoiler, Veer is going to make it all the way to the end. Yeah. Which, spoiler, Veer makes it all the way to the end. And beyond.

[14:14] Yeah. Yeah, that he does. Now, I mentioned earlier about the accent. Let's talk about the Centauri accent. All right. This is the first. I found this actually rather interesting. Because it is a wildly inconsistent accent. It is certainly wildly inconsistent. But, you know, like Rifa certainly has his little thing. And then Londo is all over. He is the guy, right? Veer doesn't really have much of an accent. No. But several of the other, you know, major Centauri do and some don't. To that effect, JMS says this, talking about the Centauri accent. No, not everyone on Centauri Prime has the accent. We don't all have the same accent here on Earth. Why would they have the same accent there? He says the one that we're hearing primarily is one that is really left over from the old world. And it is one that is put on by the royal court. It's something that you, they, it's just the way they talk at the royal court. And since our interactions are with people like Londo and refund, Jokey McJokerson and several of these others, that also explains why like Cartagio, when he comes in. Kind of has a little bit of a thing, but he's also, you know, Cartagio is like, he's going to go short hair. Yeah. all this sort of stuff and he talks to dead heads he does his shadow shadow cabinet or whatever he's got yeah shadow cabinet.

[15:31] There are a few other things but i do want to save those for the episode itself as we go through so jeff with that speaking of the episode let's go through it yeah i'm excited to watch this one especially with the new lenses that you've just provided what's going to happen next is we're going to pull the episode up we're going to watch it right here we'll react in real time we'll pause we'll talk about messages we'll talk about our observations our reactions things like that and you get to be a part of that with us while we do it if you're watching us on youtube you're going to see the edited out reaction video kind of style that you see on on the youtube out there if you want access to the full the unedited version of this we post that uh almost a week ahead of when it hits youtube or the audio pieces on our patreon page at patreon.com slash bad.

[16:22] Nerds and if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app not the video platform totally cool we got you we're gonna hear the audio from that you will hear the pieces of the episode that relate to whatever we're talking about because we don't want you to miss out on that conversation and we're not going to rehash it at the end because why no one wants to hear us do that it's no good it's better it's better when we just do it right right then and there but we'll also include this the second half where we talk about the messages the rankings and all that sort of stuff so So, Jeff, in the words of my friend Rafiki, with an accent, he says, it is time. It is. It is time. Accessing file.

[17:03] That was very mystical, magical with the chimes in the music. So I noticed the lack of earth force. Oh, I remember this. Good morning. Let's take a look at the manifest. Ankles. Hello. I kind of see why the Puritans had a thing against them. Those are quite provocative. Shoulders, man. I don't know if that's a wig or not, but her hair looks so healthy and fantastic. I'm a little bit distracted by it, actually.

[17:43] I've never woken up screaming like that have you yeah you have like if i'm falling sometimes in a dream and you get that like i get the shake but i don't like wake up sometimes i will very rare maybe a handful of times but more than her still sleeping on one side of the bed and i'm in the Leaving a space for Talia. It's like setting an extra place at the table. It's going to be yours one day, Veer. And he knows that right now. That's why he's touching it, so... There you go!

[18:13] I was just looking, really. I didn't touch a thing. Maybe the drapes a bit, but there was this large flying thing that I tried to, you know, squat. The Emperor has just finished reviewing your reports from Minbar. He asked me to convey his compliments on your hard work. A poor guy. Some parts of it do read as if they were written by Ambassador Malari. He advised me on a few things. I thought as much. He's like, knock that off. Mundo belongs to the old school. He thinks we must be protected from the truth. These are perilous times. We must have accurate information about what other worlds are doing. You would do well to follow your own judgment in future. Thank you, Minister. Well, I'll let you go back to your room now. Why not just go straight to the bar, right? Yeah. Oh, I heard a new joke. Oh. What is more dangerous than a locked room full of angry gnar? Dude, he's incredible. This is... I don't know. What is more dangerous than a locked room full of angry gnar?

[19:17] One angry gnar with the key.

[19:25] Veer's like, I got to get out of here. I'm like, jokey mcjokerson he is now that's the moment he becomes my favorite centauri like he's like my favorite pet centaur oh my word that was great foreshadowing too yeah he literally walks into a room of angry narn it's such a great cold open because for all we know right now what we have seen is veer and jakar and jakar dead dead yeah right dead and now he's surrounded by him for all we know he's gonna get refund and we don't even know what that means yet the first time he's got a bunch of gnar just chilling on satari pride i'm guessing are those are those ones that are like free like he freed them from prisons or something there i think so yeah or he's transferring them to work prisons i forget what it was but like oh that's they're supposed to be going to work prisons but he's redirecting them something like that that's the that's the fake thing that he's doing yeah he's shindler he's shindler's shindler's listing it is really what he's doing here yeah and ivanova has issue with how he's doing it that comes up it's like well you're saying this he's like yeah or they die like this is what i can do.

[20:36] I get the one where your teeth are breaking off or falling out and you wake up going ah oh yeah i know that one you're lost in a maze somewhere that's good you see the two patches on each arm you got the ranger on one side and the babelon five shield on the other i dreamt that i walked into cnc totally unprepared for my work yeah i'm interested in a little uh dime store psychoanalysis now i'm just burying myself as a preface it really is like the way they're featuring the uniform here subtle but really important one of these dreams puts you on unfamiliar territory all right so we're talking 13 years we're both career military that means we define who we are by what we do we left all of that behind when we broke away from earth even i've already dealt with all that i've.

[21:17] Consciously but from what you were saying subconsciously you're still trying to work it all through you don't know where you fit anymore how to define yourself you're feeling vulnerable lost and exposed jeff yeah let us pull up a conversation that we have not infrequently on this show because it comes up quite frequently yeah let's talk about where the source of your identity comes from oh yeah the idea that if it comes from your job or it comes from your role role, you're really putting yourself in a very dangerous spot because that job and that role could change at a moment's notice. And then who are you? As it has right here. And I would encourage everybody, you are more than your job. You are more than your title. You're more than your paycheck. And your value and your worth as a human being is not wrapped up in those things in the least. Nope. Not even a little bit. It's all perfectly obvious and completely understandable. I suppose. I just hate waking up in the middle of the night, not knowing who I am or where I am or even what i am you know what's interesting with that too so like let's fast forward into season four when earth civil war and avanova is leading she's captaining the white star and she gets on thing and she's like i am susan avanova daughter of and she just lays it out and it's like so here she's like i don't even know who i am i didn't pick up on this the first time then she does like she finds out who she really is yeah your subconscious just needs to work it all through Hey, it could be worse. You could be having dreams where you're showing up to work naked.

[22:45] You'd be in real trouble.

[22:49] This is really being set up as a comedy episode right now. Oh, speaking of Palmetto Bug. This is the Bug episode. It's the Bug episode!

[23:02] It's amazing what you can do with a swatter and some foley work right although it does sound a little bit like the shadows there's no no relation to the shadows but it does kind of does kind of sound like them if i were him i'd be like i thought the techno mages got we got rid of those bugs what is that statue there in the back yes you can help me it looks like a buddha Two hours ago, two hours ago, I called you. I told you there is a bug. That's the same sword he killed. Jadzo or whatever his name was. Jacob. Yeah. And he's just dulling the blade. Dude, I heard it. Almost sounded like he short his pants. There you see.

[23:49] With a centauri there are more of you yes dude this would have been a great episode to see you are ambassador jane carr come back oh yeah and like kind of let her bring yeah anyone you want me to be come in he's like they just show up at my doorstep now i got it's amazing i'd like to see you tonight oh are you not seeing me now i would think that you see me every time we meet unless i have become translucent in substantial you are radiant nobody has thought to inform that's the right line let me say i'd like to see you in a different light okay for instance over dinner is she really just being yeah dumb no she's or is she just full-on flirting this is full flirting And she knows exactly what she's doing. That look on her face. Tomorrow we may be involved in another crisis, another battle. This may be the last chance we'll get for a while.

[24:48] There's a great lesson there. Great lesson. Yeah. This isn't a message. This is just a life lesson. I was just having this conversation with my son earlier today and involved some stuff with my wife. And I'm not going to go into the details of personal what's going on. But there's an old adage, Jeff, never put off for tomorrow what you can do today. Don't delay. When you have an opportunity to do something that you may not have the opportunity to do later, go ahead and do that thing. Because the thing that you would have done now, guess what? You can do it later. I'm not encouraging anybody to live in a dirty house, but if you need to pick up your house a little bit, or I don't know, go see your kid's ball game, leave the stuff in the house for later, go see your kid's ball game. If you get, you know, or go do, you know, go, go on that date with your spouse or your partner or whatever, go. Go do the thing, because this other stuff that seems like it's really important, like we got to get it all done, like right here, right now, really, really fast, that stuff will be here when you get back.

[25:50] Do the things that may not actually give you an opportunity to do later. And I mean that in every aspect of life. Take advantage of the time you have now. And here's the cool thing. If you do it now and then you get your other stuff done again later, guess what? You might actually have the opportunity to do it twice. Right? Or three times or ongoing. Or you may miss the opportunity. You may not see something that's going – because that's the thing. You could do the thing you're trying to do now and save something for later, but then something can bump that out of the way. And then you don't get to do it at all. And here's John going, hey, listen, we may not have this opportunity for a long time. So let's do it. Do we have dinner tonight? I'm going to make this a priority and we're going to prioritize this tonight over everything else that we have going on. I love it. It's good stuff. It's kind of like Wayne Gretzky said, right? You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. There you go. There you go. So don't, you know, and for everybody out there who wants to, you know, stop procrastinating starting tomorrow, good on you. Tomorrow never comes, right? That's not according to Garth Brooks. If tomorrow never comes. All right. Home, we have an old saying. He does it better. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Yep. Yeah, that's a little too extreme. That's not what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's very depressing. Turn down for dinner. Well, we cannot have that, how can we? Oh, I love how in they are! Look at him! Oh, look at that. Find you a person who looks at you like Sheridan watches Delenn walking off.

[27:18] Do that. I have a surprise for you. A surprise? You can come out now. Is it his family that we got told is going to come at some point? Her smile is very wild. Hello, Veer. Expressive. This is my glorious, Veer. Your wife has come all this way just to see you. Wando, I'm not married. Not yet, but in a few days you will be. And if you ask me, she is far too good for you. Wando, I'm not married. Say hello. Her name is Lindesty. And you'll be spending the rest of your life with her. Much in the same way he spends the rest of his life with his four wives. Right, yeah, every day. Don't worry about it, dear. He gave her the little... How can we be married? I've never even met you before. It was all arranged through your uncle and my mother, the Lady Drusilla. I know that in your face I see a gentleness and a kindness of spirit. While I was waiting for you, Ambassador Malari told me everything about you. Oh, don't... He's like, what? and I told her the good parts. It was a very short conversation.

[28:26] That's good. Dude, that's a part. I'm balding right before my eyes. I promise you, when we cross beneath the swords and bowels, it will be fine. Look at me, Veer. Come on, I'm so lovable. I'm gonna show you how lovable I am. We've had a lot more narns than usual come through here lately. Most of them escape in the homeworld. Far out of the sea of a problem. The more they can get away from the Centauri, the better. Oh, hey, I agree. Just that I was going over their papers of transit, and I noticed the name of the Centauri who approved them. Abraham Olin Coney? You gotta be kidding me. Since when is that a Centauri name? Yeah, well, that was my reaction, too. Both of these two people should recognize this name. well zach did tell us back in i was the morden episode with sheridan locking him up episode he said i didn't pay a lot of attention in history class rachel said that to garibaldi it doesn't matter you know who leonardo da vinci is sort of you know who william the conqueror was you know who leaf erickson was i also read paid attention in you you know who the pharaohs were you know who king henry the eighth was you know who abraham lincoln was a lot happened between then and here You know who John Lennon was. Not the Beatle. Wait, who is it? What was his name? Not John Lennon. What was his name? Lennon? Huh? Lennon? I don't know Lennon's first name. What was his first name? Yeah. This is not John. It wasn't John. It is not John.

[29:46] You know who I'm talking about, though. The guy that took over after the Romanovs got killed. You know who the Romanovs are. Yeah. Because we paid attention in school. Zach did not. And we saw the movie. Yeah. We all saw Anastasia, right? If you didn't, oh boy, sir. Is that probably Vladimir Vladimir Lennon Vladimir which is not John your lips fell right off there sir whose office did these come through.

[30:13] Thank you katarina do you think it will take you very long to love me okay are we getting the feeling that she's just a ditz hard to say i've always considered time to be very important i brought it up in our first watch but it bears repeating here the seminal classic coming to america you're on the an island nation of zamunda it's not an island nation as i always say say i don't think it's an island it's not but it just sounds great to say that the island nation of Zamunda. And Eddie Murphy's guy meets his bride-to-be and he's like hey, what do you like to eat? And she's like, whatever you like. This is totally, totally out of that. What if I told you to jump on one foot and bark like a dog?

[31:01] I've often thought we are given time in a multitude of tiny boxes so small that when we need them most, they're nowhere to be found veer's like you should rush things you're nuts i'm not suited to you let me be a fever from which you never recover and our nights an anarchy of pleasure an anarchy of pleasure she's literally only trained to be like a letter to the penthouse letter thing that's all she can do dude veer has no game whatsoever because he's like actually a good guy well if kisses could kill that one would have flattened several small towns. Fear. Our marriage That's a good lie. The ceremony is just for show. Everything that must be done has been done. If you send me away I will still be your wife in name if not in fact. And I think you will find me a most powerful, A most pleasant fact. Dude, she is throwing herself. Oh, look at that. Dude, he went opened mouth at her. Oh, my word. Mr. Cotto. He's like, if you're saying what I think you're saying, let's go.

[32:09] Engaged. Okay. For the record, they did not consummate it right there. I don't think so. No. They did not cut the scene. And he's walking a little lighter right now. I don't think because he actually, this is, I think, where we learn. Because he tells Ivanova something. He's like, no, no, no. We have six or something. I think this is where we learn that. Not that they have six, but that it takes that. You're saying these narns go voluntarily? Absolutely, yes. Well, then why the forgery, the fake names, the falsified transit papers? There are many centauri who would rather see the narns suffer back home than be given comfortable quarters too close to centauri look at his face like the real compassion he's got for this, yeah this is a great steven first episode i hope that's the right kind of table jms answers a question does avanova and ultimately sheridan really think that veer is is doing bad stuff with all of these narns after all this is veer it's not uh joseph mingle i guess is the person who, what is it? Mengele. Is that how you say it? I think so, yeah. He was the person, I guess, responsible for the, in Hitler's administration for all the concentration camps and the rounding up stuff, right? Not a great guy. He said, you know, do they really, well. I think the Slayer song Angel of Death is about him.

[33:23] JMS's response really to all of this is while they may not think that Veer is personally doing all of these things. They do think that he is expediting the transfer of Narns off world for bad purposes. Okay. That he's facilitating the sell of these folks. And you might think that Veer is someone who couldn't do this. No, not Veer. Not Veer. Veer's a great guy. He could totally do it. He says, but most of the Nazis who sent the Jews to die weren't Yosef Mingala or whatever. They were processed, the Jews were processed with numbers from behind wireframe glasses. The people were quiet. Sometimes they were cheerful individuals and probably had wonderful wives and great children. The greatest evil can often wear a benign, smiling, and affable face. And don't forget, people in this show can change. Just look at Londo. I like that a lot. We talk about that in this series a lot. Intersections in real time comes to mind first for me. But we talked about that. It's not the person. It's not President Clark. It's the people who just show up to work every day and do the stuff or the ones in the middle who are like truly power sick and use the person's other horrible stuff to do more horrible stuff. But yeah, real evil. Has spectacles in a briefcase and just shows up to work punching a clock every day. I just called myself real evil.

[34:46] Didn't come for the decor. Well, I hope you didn't come for the decor. I came for you. Unlike Mr. Garibaldi. Woo hoo. I am not exactly a gourmet cook. I like that picture over there.

[34:59] Oh yeah. It's a favorite of mine too. Pro tip for anybody who's ever trying a new recipe. Hand it to the person and go, this is a new recipe. I've never made it before. If it sucks, just tell me. It's okay. Give them permission. Don't sit there and be like, hey, I made this thing. Isn't it great? No, just tell them. When I get brave in the kitchen and I'm like, I'm going to try this new thing. And it's a real stretch. I always have a backup plan. Like, hey, if I get this done, it's no good. I got pizza ready to come. Or I've got this in the freezer I can bust out. Like, yeah. Don't put that on somebody, man. Although it spoils the comedy of the moment, but still.

[35:36] So, how is the fly? Just right. Liar liar jms oh jms himself confesses yes the minbari do lie we have established that the minbari can and do lie when it's done to save the honor of another here delin is saving face for sheridan like the truth would actually be more caring for you yeah did your meeting with the commander go well i'd like to know more about what you do so that i can be a good wife to you, I knew if I followed you long enough, I would find a mark. I have the Shankar. I like the Pachmarat just randomly coming in like, eat no doubt of there, man.

[36:20] He really did like it. Are we seeing that on video cameras? I hope we will. You're on a date, dude. So, Brent, to your earlier point, you got your moment, right? This is it. Tomorrow, everything's going to blow up and go to hell. You have your moment right now. So they just called and said, hey, there's an assault going on. It's near you. Also, we have a security force. I get that he's like, hey, someone's getting hurt. I want to go do something about that. That's great. You just made a choice. Also, that security force, they're going to have the right kind of protective gear. They're going to have the right kind of self-defense weapons. They're going to have all this stuff able to – you're just going to go down there and be like – Stop. Probably get yourself hurt. So –, just like that and like that dude sherry can take a punch man that's a shun kong.

[37:16] Hey back to the good ppg and veer had no explanation for the attack, Well, maybe it was just a random terrorist attack on a Centauri. It's not like they need a reason these days. I don't think it gets answered in the episode, but my theory was and is. Veer wasn't the target for that. Lindesty was. No, it absolutely was Lindesty. And I think they tell us that later. Okay. He's following Lindesty. Just before he came at them, the last time he yelled, Sean Carr. It's a non-blood oath. Exactly, meaning it's a personal grudge. You didn't see the episode, John, but there's a one called Deathwalker. We learned all about the Sean Carr. See what you can dig up. Pull it out of the archives. You can watch it. I just don't understand it besides i'm fine oh hey delan i hear that you're upset that i got up and left and i understand that i have been dressing myself for a long time i felt this.

[38:03] Give her some validation oh look at this look at this it happened here was with a woman apparently there to be married soon i'm just gonna call it out they almost kiss here but what she's doing right now my opinion is miles more intimate than kissing like this is a she's taking care of him yeah you know yeah there's a scene in the first season of star trek discovery um where uh two dudes colber and uh i don't remember the the the medical dude they're married stamets um yeah stamets is the engineer colber is the okay there's the medical doctor yeah but anyway stand in the mirror brushing their teeth together and it's like to me that was that's the most intimate explicit scene ever shown on television because like you might meet with somebody and you know hook up or whatever you might get six but like standing there like brush your teeth that's kind of a gross thing dude next to somebody must be the shortest courtship on record she just got here yesterday the air recycling system may be as you say in the air i'm not gonna pause it but jns did tease the kiss here and he kind of went in on on people asking him about it he's like me ETs? Never. Stay tuned, is all he would say. Captain, I... You...

[39:21] That is the second time Ivanova has interrupted him in the middle of a thing. I've got a serious problem with fear. What makes you think I would know anything about this? Well, for starters, it's the kind of thing that only you could think of, Lando. Second, there's only one logical reason why another Narn would declare a Shankar and try and kill him. Revenge. Yeah, see, they've got the Shankar placed in the wrong spot. It's against Lindussey because of something her dad did. According to the transit and relocation files, every one of them, all 2,000 Narns, all of them are dead. There's 2,000 murders, Veer. No wonder the Narns are after you and anyone close to you.

[39:56] See not here yeah you got you had it right in your head because that's what it was, my only regret is that i couldn't have saved more of them there you go get it veer he's a hero, hero and then he's gonna get what you have done to me here i was the one who pushed to get you this position position you have abused if this comes out the scandal would hurt both of us now i will have to deal with this fear and with you just one thing if ver is telling the truth and None of these Narns have been killed. Why did one of them attack you? They're Narns, Captain. They don't need a reason for murder. Not against you. They have one already. Yeah, I agree. Delenn in the chat. Hate how Londo makes all this about him. You're troubled. Yeah, this is part of the Londo is just a piece of garbage. Yeah. No redemption. Can you tell me what is troubling you? It has to do with the Narns. Ah, that's all they are, you know. Trouble. They're simply inferior. It's genetics. Don't know if jms says anything about this but i'm going to say it on behalf of jms uh just substitute narn for another word that starts with the same letter and this is what we were saying in the 20s 30s 40s 50s what they're saying now the 18 18 was i seven the the the 16s the 17s the 18s the 19s or the 20s which which one are you talking about all of them.

[41:18] That's pretty sad yeah and not wrong they're lazy hence my original conclusion the sooner they're dealt with the better forever like if you're right here he's just like okay if they've caused you okay here's my question here's my question in no way shape or form am i absolving linda steve anything she's saying here is how much responsibility does she bear for this though because we we spent earlier today talking about how much of a ditz she is how how much and everything we have learned about her to this point has been her grooming. She has been groomed to become the wife of someone and to just lay down and be whatever for that person, right?

[41:58] This kind of attitude, this kind of belief doesn't come from one's own mind. This is stuff that's built into you. This is stuff that is taught to you. This is stuff that's taught to you as fact. And frankly, When you don't have much interaction with people of that sort and ilk, you have no reason to disbelieve it. So while she is a grown ass adult and she is fully responsible for her own words and her own attitudes and her own actions, how much is she actually like, not responsible, that's not the right word, but like, how could she be anything other than this? Like, this is what she's been taught. I have two thoughts that come to mind. One is from our first time viewing, we talked about this a bit in the messages section. We talked about when you have an opportunity to learn and do better and you choose not to, then you're complicit. Like it's, it's all at that point. The other thing that comes to mind for me is you and your experience growing up in a time and a place that carried a lot of these exact same attitudes.

[42:59] You though were given opportunity to meet other people, to hear their stories. That's evidence of what we talked about earlier, that episode of beam me up linked in the show notes, go listen to it. And you did. And you changed your view. There are people given that same opportunity.

[43:15] Now, I don't know that Linda C has ever been given the opportunity, but I still, I, I, because, because to your point, Jeff, while you consider those words, okay, you're right. I was given lots of opportunities. I was raised in an