Convictions | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2025, the name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, catching all those cool things there's no way we could have caught the first time around. And we're still looking for messages. We know there's things that we missed the first time around and things that we've forgotten about since then. And so we're looking for those. Jeff, I think we're maybe even be a little more adept at digging out messages now than we were back then. We're looking for those things that hold up a mirror to society, things that give us hope that things can be better in the future, or maybe even things that tell us we can just be better people to each other. Now, that being said, as Jeff said, we have completed our first watch. We have gone through Babylon 5 for the first time in its entirety, all the way through to the end of Crusade, through the movies. We're even starting to read some of the novels and all that sort of stuff. So this is a spoiler warning for anyone who has not gotten as far as Jeff and I. They're not as into the show as we have been. This is your spoiler warning. From this point forward, Jeff and I can talk about anything from any point in the franchise, in-source, extra-source.

[2:12] Convention, whatever has to do with the show is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So if you have not watched Babylon 5 for the first time yourself, stop this podcast, stop this YouTube video, stop this, whatever it is you're listening to. Go back and catch our first watch. Join us for that. And when you get done with that one, catch us up here. Trust us. It's better that way. It really is. And this week, Brent, we're watching this second episode of the third season. It's called Convictions. Now, it's interesting because when I first think of this episode, you would think the second thing I'm going to bring up comes to mind. But the first thing that comes to mind, and I'm immediately like, this is the whole episode, is I just remember the whole, like, bomb thing in Sheridan.

[2:54] Smuggling his link, uh, in to talk to the, uh, the bomber guy. But this is the episode Brent, where we, I think probably coined our first hit song. Uh, I remember. So I'm pretty excited to revisit that, but I remember really, really liking this episode. It set us like, this was one of those ones where it really defined the new, like we're in a new direction. Things are different now. Do you remember what you thought of this one? If I remember correctly, and here's the thing, Jeff, you asked me this every single week. Do I remember what I thought? And the answer generally is no, but here's what I think about that episode right now in my memory. Does that make sense?

[3:38] Time may be lying to what, from what I had originally thought, but here's what I remember out of this. This is the episode with the bomb plot. This is one of those shows that everybody is done it's stale it's old it's not interesting to me and this episode is just sort of meh now you say elevator and that may well i don't know if you said elevator but you said one of our hit songs i happen to know that's it it's londo and jacar in an elevator living it up while we're going down that whole thing i happen to know that that's what it is and i'm very excited to get to that point cool well do you want to hear what you actually thought of it because i would I would love to. Yeah. Were we just in disagreement on this one? Not really, actually. So your thought of this one was, this feels like a one-off filler. Yeah, you you predicted that we're going to get a total of six episodes for Brother Theo and the monks and you called it. Yeah, this is Brother Theo. We get Brother Theo in this one. How many did we actually get three? Was it six? No, it was like two or three. No, it was more than that. Not a lot. Come on, Council Chambers. You guys are out there. Drop it in the comments below. Hey, by the way, if you want to join us live for recordings, you can join our Council Chambers at our Patreon page. Patreon.com slash bad nerds.

[4:58] And you guys can check that out for how to do it our council chambers is here how many episodes that's the question how many episodes was brother theo in it does not count when he was here as droll you i and then you went on to call this episode season threes tko oh but season three is tko in that wasn't a great episode but what they did in the episode was great, Overall, you asked if it was actually about anything at all, and that the episode ultimately honked you off.

[5:36] I'm a funny guy. I feel like that'll make more sense when we watch the episode. Okay.

[5:42] I thought that this was a better episode than it deserved to be, which is kind of along the same lines as what you were saying. Like, it did cool stuff in it. I was really just disappointed in the bomb plot overall. And we talked about it quite a bit in the episode, but in a post-9-11 world, it just hit a lot differently than they probably intended it to hit. Than when they made it in a pre-9-11 world. Exactly. It was a very different world. Along with your piece of it not actually being about anything, I said there were no real stakes at all. This whole episode it kind of meant nothing but the elevator uh i called it an acting master class, okay the two of them all right you said this episode had a top five cold open and the really the quote that you uh brought up a couple times in there was uh in the it's in the cold open please explain to me the official babylon five missionary position i did not you did it folks Folks, this is a family-friendly show. There's no way. Okay. We loved John Flynn. John Flynn was the drunk guy in the terminal. What we loved about him, he's the chief cinematographer for Babylon 5, but was also the cinematographer for the Gilmore Girls. Yes. That's a future film.

[7:06] Although that might have to be on the good nerds, right? Yeah. Cause we're in on that. I'm not sure what we got on that one, but that my, my mom actually just went through that show for the first time. And I was like, I was all for it. I was what you guys were with Jeff and I were going through it for the first time. Only with her. Only I got to watch her, like do it live. Like not in YouTube land. That's exciting. We talked about it already. Londo and Jakar in an elevator, but your, your line was Londo in an elevator, living it up while Jakar is down.

[7:37] Oh yeah yeah i remember that now when i did the recap for the episode i did the pulp fiction watch monologue about sheridan's link that's pretty fun okay yep yeah this one the timing i feel like jeff i feel like we could do something with our show recaps i think from 110 like i feel like we could there could be something fairly entertaining with those some of those were pretty good right just to pat ourselves on the back a little bit more here right yeah Yeah, why not? Why not? The timing of this one's interesting. There's a character, a security character in this one named Marishi. We... I was looking for this guy a couple weeks ago. Go ahead. We loved him. We loved him. We wanted to see more of him. This was the first time, actually, we questioned where Lou had gone. Oh, yeah. But the actor who plays Marishi just recently passed away. He did, yeah. He did. So rest in peace and power both. That guy was in everything. Mm-hmm. They talk a little about the molecular traceability of explosives, and we were convinced that was going to be like an ongoing plot point in the series.

[8:46] Not shockingly, and I won't go into a lot of detail on it, but we went in some pretty deep dive conversations around ecumenicism and theology and just some really great, some really good religious discussion between the two of us in this one. I guess the big one, I'll save this one for later, but the big one that also talks about something else we need to do is you made a bunch of Three Amigos references. We still haven't done that. I know. I still have it sitting here ready to go. So that's what I got from our, most of what I got from our first listen. If it comes up during the episode, I'll bring up a few other things. You, Brent, went across the web and books and all kinds of stuff to pull out what Joe Straczynski himself said about this episode. Yeah. What do you got? So we both kind of liked this episode. Is that what I'm kind of gathering from you here? Yeah, we were on it, kind of. Like, it's all right. It's all right. And that's what it's like, everyone's done it. So that's where my memory is of this episode right now. JMS, though. God love his heart.

[9:51] Which, for those of you not from the South, that is. Listen, everybody knows the bless his little heart or bless your little heart. Bless your heart, whatever, all of those. God love his heart. It's a different level altogether, y'all. It is, I'm telling you. You don't hear that one very often, but that one, Joe says. What's great is that the second season, we haven't had one single episode on the level of war prayer or infection or grail, you know, those weak episodes of season one. Notice which episode he didn't mention? TKO. Right. Yeah, not a week episode. else he didn't mention soul hunter yeah people some people like that one yeah we liked it a lot more in the second one we liked it more but a lot more than not at all is still not necessarily a lot uh he said the speaking of season two the worst we've done is pretty darn good.

[10:51] You know what pretty darn okay i was gonna say bad babylon five is still good babylon it's still good tv it's like pizza right right what we're working on now for year three is that they're all better that they're at the baseline i mean so far they're killer our second episode for year three convictions has a very different feel from anything we've done on the show to date It's very dark and scary and gritty feeling and probably one of the best character sequences in the series to date. I'm assuming that's the elevator scene. Probably. We're also doing some major effects blowouts and other types. And, hey, they go into space and shoot stuff. And it's very interesting and creative. He was all about this particular this particular episode. OK. Yeah. Like he was all about it. He also speaks of another scene with Londo and Lanier, and he says it contains a small nod to the online fans of the show. You'll remember when this show was first airing, the internet was very much in its infancy, and Joe was there all the time, right? And so it's a little show to them. He said, we can't and won't use any story ideas, but there has been a lot of humor, reams and reams of humor from the interwebs back then. Okay. Every imaginable kind of joke. So I dropped one of those jokes into the episode. Yeah.

[12:15] And it's one that's come up at a lot of conventions and is on the nets endlessly. Just to kind of acknowledge – it's his nod to the fans by throwing that in there. I don't know what it is. Yeah, that's my whole thing. What joke is it? I don't know what it is. Council Chambers, if you guys know what it is, let us know. He does have some other stuff to say about this episode, but it's all stuff I want to say for the episode itself. Okay.

[12:40] We have to guess what the joke is. I hope it's the missionary position one. Oh, no, no, no, no. Thank you. Council Chambers came through. Nia, it's another light bulb joke, this time with the Centauri. I remember this one now. So anyway, Jeff, with that, I think we need to go watch an episode. Let's do it. We're going to watch Convictions. We're going to watch it right here, right now. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Hello. Every episode is somebody's first, and we're really glad that you're here with us. But what's going to happen in this point forward, we're going to watch the episode. If you're watching this with us on YouTube, you're going to see an edited version kind of cut up, like the reaction video stuff that you see out there. You'll get all of our conversation that comes with that. And if you want to see the full thing, though, that just involves us kind of watching it a little bit and maybe some of the other one-offs that we have during the episode itself, you can get that at our Patreon, patreon.com slash badnerds.

[13:39] And if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting apps or maybe on Audible, Spotify, any of those sorts of things, we're not going to leave you out. We're going to have that conversation that we have during the course of the show. Of course, we'll have the conversation after that as well. So you guys stay with us. We are not forgetting about you out there in audio land. So Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. I can't wait. Accessing file. Right.

[14:15] Yeah, do me a favor and explain the missionary position to these folks. Yeah, sure thing, Chief. Knicky's all about that. Okay, so here's how this... I don't want to share my blessing, okay? Yeah. You see that plant over there? Gordon, when your people saw this, Jabawa. Droshala. Right. Anyway. This is, like, both so offensive and so fun all at the same time. Right? Why don't you go poke the plant for a while while I take care of your entry visas, okay? Look how easy immigration is here on Babylon 5. I'll give you a visa right now. You just showed up, but I'll give you a visa right now. No problem. We don't know what it means with three anonymous messages. Yeah, we're going to talk about one of these where there is an explosion kind of coming down the hallway. We're going to talk about this. They just showed a shadow. Have we seen that in the show before? Yes.

[15:17] Yes. It doesn't wait until we get to Zaha Doom before we see that. I'm surprised you remember Zaha Doom. Look at that. Well, buddy, we had a whole thing about Zaha Doom like three episodes ago. Yeah, very recent. The first time we ever heard about it. Super recent, yeah. I got it. Listen, this mine, Jeff, it's a steel trap. As soon as something comes in, nothing leaves. I immediately put all the pieces together, man. I don't Doc Brown this thing. I don't at the very last second. No, no, no, no. It's just there waiting. The whole time. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the first time we saw the shadows was Signs and Portents. That was how season two ended, was with the news clip. No, but that shot, like, right in there of their face. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we saw that when the shadow of Zaha Doom. Okay. That was when they were explaining, like, hey, here's what happened. Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay. JMS had to point out these are not the monks that Sheridan encountered with Kosh. Okay. We're going to be staying. For a while. That sounded so ominous. Staying here for a while. So JMS confirmed here that Lewis was sick when they, they wanted him back for Twilight, but he was sick. He couldn't do it, so they went with dude. Dude. Whose name's blanking on me right now. John Shuck. John Shuck. There you go. Nice job. Steel Trap. I told you, man. Steel Trap. Yep.

[16:42] But he said we basically tried to get him back as soon as we could, And here we go. They jumped at their first opportunity to get him back. Here's a fun fact. Brother Theo is named for Vincent Van Gogh's brother. Wow. Whose name is Theo. Okay. Here's the story. I learned something here, and I'm assuming just because I trust Joe Straczynski that this is 100% true and accurate. It was a mild spring day, warm, clear, and sunny, when Vincent Van Gogh picked up his easel, some paints, and walked a mile and a half to an open field where he often painted landscapes. He set up his easel, sat under a tree for a while, ate part of an apple, composed a brief note to his brother Theo, and then pulled out a Derringer and shot himself in the chest. After an hour, he realized he wasn't going to die for quite a while yet. He picked himself up, staggered a mile and a half back to his brother Theo's house, where a few hours later that evening he passed away in his brother's arms. I've always liked the name Theo, Joe says, from Vincent's brother. So there's the sound of it. Also, the sense of it in that Theo, for Vincent Van Gogh, was a guide. He was a counselor. He was a confidant. All right. He was a mentor.

[18:02] So he thought that this Theo, being who he is and how they're going to write him and what he's going to do, has that kind of feel. So that's cool. And also Theodore from the word Theos and adore.

[18:18] Loved by God, favored by God is what it translates to, which he says was very apropos. I like that. And Paul in our council chambers chat along those same lines assumed Theo because he's religious. Theology. Well, that's the apropos, because Theo means the word of God, the study of God. Theodore, loved by God. That's the Theo, the Theos. So not wrong, Paul. Just, you know, Theo was there for that particular reason. Yeah. Cool. Four dead so far. Doc thinks there may still be some nice ones buried in the rubble. I'm going to back this up. I just have to show some appreciation. I'm going to give some flowers here, Jeff. Yeah. To the director of photography. Okay. Watch how this shot is established right here. All right, people are parting.

[19:10] Sheridan pops in, camera has not cut away. Right. Pans over, here's this little thing right here. We're gonna pan into this thing. It lifts away and we're right here. That's a cool shot. Good catch. That is a cool shot, man. Just walking past the hall when all hell's rolling. He applied to Earth Dome for permanent resident status on Babylon. He sounds a little drunk. The documents and permissions in Archbishop Francis. Catholic. You want to live here. That's fair. A little bit of the sacrament there. Is that so extraordinary? You live here after all. You live here after all. It's about everyone who lives here and works here. The docker is a shop owner. What's cool, it's a very different voice that he used from Droll. Mm-hmm. Short-term business. Yeah. Oh, cool. Dude, Avano's hair is very. Yeah. A lot of body. Yeah.

[20:06] Nia points out that they're from an actual, like what he names is an actual monastery. Nothing of all these other races on distant worlds in hopes of better understanding the one who is behind. So we had a couple of theories here the first time around. I was going to say, I like, yeah. Theologically, I would highly disagree with what he's saying here, but historically, I'm all for it. Right. Yeah. We thought that ultimately there'd be an ongoing storyline for this of them trying to learn the names of God and what was behind it. And what was going to be behind it were the Vorlon. So like this would just prove beyond to a show. Like they'd have, you know, scientific or, you know, forensic evidence that like, oh, yeah, it was all the Vorlon all along.

[20:55] Which we were right. We think. I mean, yes. No. Like we know the end of the story. We were right. It was the Vorlon. That's part of what they did. You know, they're all everybody saw the same God, same whatever. Just they have their own name for it. Right. It's all a different thing. We talked quite a bit about the names of God. One thing that I brought up in the first listen that I like bringing up anytime I can, but there's a book written by a Methodist minister in the mid-70s. It's called The Bible and Flying Saucers. And it's essentially an essay that posits that everything we have in the Bible are from missionaries from another planet. And so the dogma behind everything, it's still God. Jesus was still the son of God. All the stuff is still dogmatically the same, but the stories of the chariot and what the ark was and where manna came from and a lot of these things I explain through the lens of alien missionaries. Worth a read. It's not very long, a couple, like 150 some odd pages. Well that's fine but she put my affiliate link somewhere if i had one to visit all the other worlds would be in the show notes right yeah brother theo i understand the idea.

[22:18] Jeff, I got to tell you, this is entirely personal right now. Okay. Okay. As we record this, I am in the midst of directing a play with some really, really talented folks. But there is still a lot of I have to get out of them what we're needing to get out of them. I don't know much about this actor, but I find it very, very interesting the choices he's making about where he's putting emphasis on words, how he's saying words, where he's pausing and taking breaths to even his choices for lack of movement in certain places. It's like I almost feel like I'm watching like some sort of a master class happen with this guy right now. Wow. Like, it's a lot of what I'm talking to my actors about right now as we're trying to tease these out and dig things out. And I just, entirely personal. It's cool. We can pay for modest rules. It's interesting the pushback Ivanova's giving here. I feel like people are moving to Babylon 5 all the time.

[23:29] Marishi, come here. There he is. Well, I will say it now. I'm sure I said it back then. I find no conflicts between religion and science. Right. Well, I don't want to say no conflicts. I don't see why you can't... They're perfectly compatible. They can coexist. They really can. Because my vacation one week off in two years there was behind this dude he was in this great episode of stargate called emancipation i don't remember that one i don't know yeah, so i want to watch do a little exercise with marishi here okay i'm going to ask this question we'll answer it at the end if we remember that i asked the question okay is he the greatest security officer on Babylon five that we see the, the show Babylon five. Okay. And if he is, is he the greatest security officer in science fiction? Because most, most security officers are terrible. Oh, I can think of two off the top of my head that are awful. Yeah. And one of them was in two different shows.

[24:47] Okay, listen up Oh, I gotta go back I totally cut off the great line Oh, here you go, Bob? Bob. Because my vacation, one week off in two years, there's behind this really honked me off now. Okay, listen up. I want this whole area sealed off. You change that vid channel one more time and I'm out of here. You got it? Oh, it's this guy. Yep. Well, she did. I did. And here I am. Who is this guy? I get to meet all kinds of people. It's John Flynn. He's the chief cinematographer. Okay. I am almost positive, Jeff. I don't hold a... from claudia christensen's biography this is the guy she was having the affair with oh you're right on the show i think it is to which i just want to say high five, good on both of you sir right you know i say that was for claudia, you know look i got hair you got a bone i have been diagnosed with netter's syndrome since I have only seven days to live. Douglas Netter, who we see at the end of each episode. So JMS says, Doug's reaction to Netter's syndrome was amused, chagrined, and carried the promise of swift and terrible revenge.

[26:10] I need the other half of this story. I want to know what he did. Yeah i need if somebody sees if somebody goes to a a con or something and you get a chance to ask jms a question this is the question in the lurker's guide you said that doug netter promised swift revenge did he ever get it and if so what did he do something like veer laying his head on his shoulder it looks like him but it's not it's not but it's yeah i don't i'm really this like lady gaga looking chick right over linear shoulder yeah like yeah to put my affairs in order before the end.

[26:54] Even he's like, later how was your journey, dropping, Sorry to interrupt the intensity of the moment. There was a lot of questions as to whether that shot was done using computer animation, CGI. Oh, okay. And he went into great detail as to how that particular shot was done. They built a miniature hallway. Actually, miniature is not the right word. It was something like 30 feet long. And they painted it so that it looked exactly like the regular B5 hallways. On film, you absolutely can't tell the difference. Then they mounted the hallway vertically alongside the outside of the building where they were. The big hot tub factory thing, right?

[27:43] They set a camera at the top pointing down into the hall.

[27:47] They built a firebomb and set it at the far end or the bottom of the hallway, and then they set off the firebomb with all the proper authorities present, just so everybody knows that, and they shot up the length of the vertical hall. They overcranked the camera so that it would start in slow motion, and then they pulled the plug so that the camera slowed down to normal speed, giving the sense of the fire swelling, and then suddenly rushing forward with a huge fireball. So when it looks like it's the hallway on fire it is in fact real fire wow not cgi the next shot londo or peter was against a blue screen reacting to this and then diving out of the way to his left and then they comp the blue screen into the hallway and then they did use cgi to build the transport tube door right uh and closed it just as the fire reached it it was an utterly immense amount of work for basically a five second shot but it looks way cool i'm just like how do you come up with that right like in the script it says you know hey explosion in the hallway yeah but uh like somebody's like oh let's do all this that's incredible here's what i want to know is there there is a a bean counter that sits there and goes okay here's how much that's going to cost for the VFX group to do.

[29:16] Here's how much it's going to cost to do it this other way. And this other way is actually cheaper. Do it that way. Right. Yeah. Or the VFX just can't do it. It's not that good yet. So that could have been the other issue. But like, you know, they had to submit a budget and a proposal for this to actually happen. Yeah. So creative though. It really is. Dude, creative people are awesome. The bombings are targeting people. Plain and simple. our tests indicate that the bomb contained a highly explosive form of deridium nitrate people are scared out of their wits if he's targeting people with his bombs that's pretty light casualty list right which fits in with what i told garibaldi earlier until this is over i want halls cleared of groups larger than 10 there's no point in providing easy targets i want them found and found fast i wonder if this is like standard protocol like i would imagine they have you know some protocols for this, and Sheridan's just kind of running down the order of events. I want to know how many people are like, you can't tell me that I can't assemble and that's a sudden amendment right, that I get the right to assemble. I'm going to do whatever I'm, you know, like... Right, yeah. How much pushback did he get from this, from other people? Franklin.

[30:34] Is this the episode where he's a... He's a dummy? Or like a mannequin? it would have to be right saying it doesn't make it so you don't have any evidence the explosion that almost killed your captain was caused by a centauri that was an isolated incident there was one explosion one time with this oh no no of course not they will sacrifice their own people to get to us don't you see what's incredible about this scene is how you can have a preconceived notion and and how everything that was factually happening.

[31:09] You just put into place to, to justify it. We see this all the time, right? And it comes back to the whole, uh, what is it? Um, the causality and whatever things aligning, like that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but there's nothing, nothing that you could show Jakar a video of dude with glasses, planting the bomb. And he's going to have an answer that he got that bomb from a centauri and was he's got ducats in his bank account i bet if you look he got paid and i just am like that just hits me with how often that we experience that today sure sure i call it my guyism oh yeah if it's your guy they can do no wrong right if it's not your guy they do all the wrong yeah you excuse your guy no matter what you know and you and you'll also I can criticize him, right? I'm the first one to call him out. Yeah, no, you're really not. Because you're going to make excuses for them every single time. I mean, I have a friend that's not my guy. So, like, it's okay, right?

[32:23] He gave me permission to say the word my guy, right? Really? Really? I would challenge that statement. Yeah. I'm afraid that if I try to go back and figure it out, I will start bleeding from my ears.

[32:54] Knowing that that's a fake dummy watching him do that is hilarious, I heard a joke today this is probably it how many centauri does it take to screw in a light bulb just one but in the great old days of the republic hundreds of servants would change a thousand light bulbs at our slightest win, it's hilarious, why did he put that in as a bad joke it's not that funny i will just start talking again paul talking about how good momy was doing right like how we all thought that man he's doing such a great job didn't andreas katsoulis like call him and is like bro that was incredible yeah like He's just off camera watching the scene. Yeah.

[33:59] But here we get a glimpse right into... Again, I'm sorry, another great shot. Yeah, coming into the... Just the slow pull out of that. Yeah, keeping him kind of just right there in that window. Yeah. Sorry, what were you saying? Another little glimpse into, like, there's still old Wando. Not much. It looked pretty primitive, so I don't think we're dealing with a pro. May I be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had? Thank you. Shh. Mm-hmm. Is it, though? I don't know. That whole consummation thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was pretty nutty. It's bound to happen. They have so many intense scenes around an elevator, even before they truly hate each other. I'll wait for the next one.

[34:51] To the left. I think this is the scene you were talking about, Brent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, could have been this one. Sure. Either way, impressive. Yeah. The other one was a hallway with fireball and Londo diving out of the way. Right? Sure. I can remember on the first time, like, really waiting for the big reveal on the bomber. We're close to Red 15. We can't even get down there. Knowing where it ends up, I'm just already, I'm just like. Three transport tubes are down. Get to the other side. Unknown.

[35:33] I love how Jakar's literally accepted everything right here. You have done nothing you want to live as much as I oh yes but I would much rather see you dead, here I am kill me kill me It's interesting because he does ultimately die to kill him. Killing of any centauri by any norm leave it i love the fact that jakar is sitting yeah and while londo is standing like londo is still in a position of power oh yeah you know i was looking at it more in terms of like londo's taking action freaking out like has anxiety, jakar has accepted it all and it's just being comfortable like but this better be good okay Okay, this may be for a conversation later, but I'll say it now. There's a neat visual going on there, though. All right? Londo in a position of power. Jakar, not. Londo's people position of power. Jakar, not. They're holding them down. However, it is Londo who is in this position of power who is freaking out, who doesn't know what's going on, who is scared, who is whatever. Meanwhile, Jakar is laughing and having a good time. Yeah. And being somewhat free. But he has to stay in this position down here because he's now in the presence of a great Centauri. It's a very interesting...

[36:59] Picture there you know a couple years ago i went down and visited you and your family it was a great time and it was wild to be i'm sorry is that we can say a couple of years ago i know isn't that nuts that's wild okay keep going but you and your uh lovely partner abandoned me and you guys went on a cruise and i was stuck with like a couple days on my own and i went there's a plantation down there that's been really well taken care of and preserved and i went and visited it a lot of great programming there to really, really bring home what it was.

[37:31] One, it's an interesting story between a thing I didn't know existed, the English approach to slavery and the Spanish approach to slavery and how very different they are and how Florida was really captured into both of those at different points. This plantation went through both times, but the real intent was to show you what it was like to be a slave living on this plantation and what i was really struck with was how much of their area was dedicated to good times community dances yeah songs telling stories like the cultural things like they they they found a way in some of the most unthinkable situation ever to still find connection and to still find like enjoyment in everything. You know what I think that says though? That's a, that's a, that's a lesson for life. Jeff, that's a lesson for a lot of things. You can have the affluence, right? You can have the big house. You can have all that, but if it's empty and it's without people, what do you got? It means nothing. You can be in the most dire of circumstances, right? But, and frankly, Jeff, if this is why we do what we do. Like, you can be in the most dire of circumstances.

[38:52] But you can find a way to maintain hope, to maintain life, to still live. Yeah, I may not have my freedom, but we can still figure out a way here to sing and dance and tell stories and share our culture. And it may be under the thumb of this Yahoo over here. But we can still live. We can still thrive. I think that gives all of us hope. Whatever we're going through, whatever struggle. Now, it's most likely people listening to this. I'm not going to say it's ubiquitous all because maybe there is somebody out there we don't know about. And if it's you, please try to get help. But for most of us, we're not as dire as literal slaves. Right?

[39:37] But we can learn from that. the hope the entertainment the music the these things can help keep you going.

[39:48] While this is still happening yeah and and i see that here with jakar and londo the narn and the centauri the narn are the people right and they are oppressed and they're being murdered and it's horrible yet they find those ways to to keep living life that's what jakar's doing right he's there. I'm good. I'm here. Londo, the person in power, the Centauri, the slave owner, you know, whatever, whomever the oppressor is, they're freaked out. How do I hold on to this power? How do I not lose this thing that I have? They're not living life. They're not enjoying things. And I mean, the idea that money can't buy you love or happiness, like we could examine the heck out of that but the reality is it's not about money right it's it's it's about greed the pursuit of power and those things and how it just kills life right and i think so what your point is we see that and londo up here freaking out and jakarta's being like hey man there's one thing i've wanted i'm probably gonna get it today no boom but if it stops i understand boom tomorrow What do you want? I want you to get me out of here, Sheridan. Well, you do that and you're going to die alone.

[41:09] Also, with that thing in between his cheeks, that's going to be way more muffled than what we just heard there. There's logistics there, man.

[41:21] Security is not going to open fire if I am a hostage, so why bring other people into it? Why not? All right, John Malkovich. I suffered. This dude, he has to be channeling John Malkovich. I think so. These are chaotic times, Captain. I'm simply an instrument of my time. When I was fired, when they took away my apartment, they all said, it's nothing personal. It's just the times. First time we watched this. Seriously? He got evicted and dumped and that's what this is about? Come on, blah, blah, blah. Well, Brent, it's about the times. And we're in different times right now than we watched this the first time. I could see this happening. In the times we're in today, divorce rates are up. People are getting laid off. There's a housing crisis, right? Rent's out of control. Cats and dogs sleeping together. It'll be anarchy. I said stand out! Uh-oh. I'd never hit a man with glasses, but now that you're not wearing them. What the hell was that? Right. Damn, we lost him.

[42:39] That poor maintenance bot has no idea what's about to happen. That is so jarring between what's happening here and then that cartoon and then this. It's not fair. It's not fair! It's not fair! It's a good thing he took his glasses off. Nia made a point earlier that now you've got Londo and Jakar on the same level. But again, you'll notice you've got Jakar just singing a song, having a good time, and Londo's still freaking out. We got two more! There, you see? I'm going to live. So Edward said, well, it is an imperfect universe. Go be the ambassador to Babylon 5, they say. It'll be an easy assignment. I hate my life. Another...

[43:49] Well brent that's convictions we just got through the the episode uh what what pops out for you, what blows up for you on this one the production for real i mean i pointed it out three four times throughout the thing the the way the camera work was done honestly the shot whether it's whether it was the shot where londo and and lanier pushes him out of the way and lanier gets injured or whether it's the other shot later and it's in the elevator shaft i don't care which one it is they're both super cool yeah and i i think they're really great i loved the use of a lot of the um sound i think the guy that played the bomber was way overacting he was uh timu john malkovich.

[44:38] But if you're gonna have a bomber do that why not get john malkovich, and if you can't get john malkovich get this guy didn't do a bad impression i guess you know what i mean um i did not let's hear what did jms say i did not feel like this particular episode was uh dark scary and gritty at all there are parts of it that just felt cartoonish and felt again paint by numbers sci-fi and i'm speaking specifically of the bomber plot yeah Yeah. Right? The rest of the episode's fantastic. The production of the episode is fantastic. What I'm left with one question, though. Okay. Why? Yeah. So. Why? I have two questions in this one. And let's do this. One was, what is the point of this episode? Mm-hmm. Outside of establishing, kind of continuing the establishment of, this is a holy site. People saw, you know, there are.

[45:40] They're gods or angels or so we did that okay cool um we reminded everybody that londo and jakar, hate each other and there was a bomb thing that happened so is this episode as you called it a one-off that didn't really mean anything but see here's the thing though jeff and this is where i'm going to push back on you and i both okay all right one of the things we often decry in the modern streaming era where an entire season is six eight maybe ten episodes at most you lose these 22 episode seasons where you can have these sort of one-off episodes but what happens in these one-off episodes jeff that don't necessarily tie to the bigger story of what's going on you get to know the people the characters you have these character things and what growth of characters did we get in this episode we got a lot of certainly londo and jakar with where they're going there was some extra lanier stuff going on in here honestly i really even loved the the sheridan and garibaldi and the way they're digging stuff out we introduced brother theo franklin show i thought he shone shined he shined shunned he shunned he shunned shoot shoot he shoot yeah there it is he shoot i thought he shined in this episode yeah you know um there are things that you would not have gotten outside of this episode. The bomber plot, I almost feel is just wrapping it.

[47:08] That's the part that you can throw away. Cause we got to keep all the other stuff.

[47:13] Is that right? That like, why put it to a bomber plot? Is it just cause you wanted to like, what, what was that particular part? Because again, I'm going to go back to you and I quoted this a lot during our first watch.

[47:28] Every season is, uh, Is its own novel or is its own, its own act 22 episode chapters and not one of them is indispensable. Like you need them all. Right. Yeah. And a part of the reason why you need them all is to develop these characters and get some pieces in there. And if that's the purpose for this episode, I would say mission accomplished. I agree. I think, I think even just the development in Lanier makes this episode worth it. Right i think if we forget the last chunk of lanier's story this is a really important development point for him you know in terms of his like the sacrifice his um his wisdom right this developing wisdom and you know did i sacrifice the future for the present things like that but there is so much more that was great also and nia points out that the bomber plot was the engine that fed the londo stuff and gave us a way to introduce theo and i don't know the bomber gave us a way to introduce theo we we met him we got we got the value of theo and the monks because they had to watch the video right right um but here's the thing that it it's kind of like oh i'm gonna step in it jeff here we go are you ready we're gonna get all these emails send all your emails to brent at the bad nerds at gmail.com um or whatever it is you ready.

[48:54] It's the same thing where people say that Die Hard is a Christmas movie. Okay. Die Hard is not a Christmas movie. No. Die Hard is a Christmas adjacent movie. Die Hard is a really cool action flick that you need no excuse whatsoever to watch it at any given time of year because you can just watch it. It's that good of a film. But it happens at Christmas. It does not make it a Christmas film. Right? Take it out of Christmas. Drop it in any other. Give the party any other reason for existing. End of the fiscal year party. Yeah. End of a season party. End of a cycle party boss's birthday party whatever it is the exact same thing can happen and it changes nothing about the film okay it's christmas adjacent it actually has nothing to do with christmas that's why diehard's not a christmas movie nia makes a good point the bomber plot is what allowed these other things to happen fine it's bomber plot adjacent you could have had any other plot also feed those same things we didn't need the bomber yeah you know what i mean so i'm gonna go back to our original question so why a bomber just because because clearly this never this part never comes back we just move on honestly this is my thought, because it is paint by numbers because it's simple because like here's a structure that exists that we can just do and then we can do our cool characters i can as a writer i can dedicate my time and energy to like how do I develop these characters I don't have to worry about the plot.

[50:21] Literally, I just copy, paste, go from there. Because now I can do all the character moments. Yeah. Which is fine. And, hey, again, if that's the goal and that's what you wanted out of this, mission accomplished. Well done. Yeah, totally. Question number two, Brent. Yeah. Is Marishi the greatest security officer on Babylon 5? Yes. Agreed. Bar none. Yes. I love Zach. Marishi is better at his job than Zach. I love Garibaldi. Garibaldi, we have documented time and time again, not great at his job. We thought he was. He has moments, right? He has moments. But he's also ultimately, he's better than Worf. He's better than Tasha Yar. Yeah. Is he a better security officer than Tuvok? Tuvok was actually a really good security officer. He's pretty competent, yeah. He really was. Although, given the – I don't know. You had something happen. Something's going down. Who do you trust more? Morishi or Tuvok? Morishi. That guy – Tuvok tracks some stuff down, man. He does. but like marishi there's no there's no drama hey go do this thing okay i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it amazingly right every time i'm gonna complain he complains he gets he gets pissed off he's like right there goes my vacation one week in three years and it's just that that's it because he's cool.

[51:40] I'm trying to think of who else was security officers. Yeah. I think so far he's better than Lou. I'll, I'll do respect to Lou. You know? Um, yeah, I'm going to wait till on till on became the new security officer on Babylon five at the end. Right. No, it becomes the ambassador for Narn, but he kind of helps with security. Cause right. The Narn station, right? Yeah. You know, I think, I think, I think there's a strong argument to be made that Marie, she is the best security officer in the entirety of sci-fi. He's among let's say that he's among the best uh top three again there's an argument to be made to me made that he is the yeah he could be top yeah but you know maybe maybe yeah you know from a messages standpoint brent we encapsulated the messages for this one when we watched it the first time we gave this we were still doing deltas at this point for the message five we said this was a strong five delta episode sure and we summarized it in three words okay be a linear yes that's a t-shirt we need to i'm pretty sure we said that that needs to be a t-shirt in a world full of londos be a linear exactly that's it that's it you made a great uh assessment of the time in the elevator and this is the thing we brought up before or we bring up quite a bit afterwards but But bitterness is swallowing poison and hoping the other person dies.

[53:04] Yeah. Which is kind of where Jakar is at. Yeah. And that's what we see happen here, right? Is there anything else you picked up, like, messages-wise on this one? Well, I mean, I love Lanier's line right at the very end. Yeah. All life is sacred. But when the object of your whatever he said doesn't share your beliefs or doesn't share your values, is you have to wonder, did you just sacrifice the future for this thing? Yeah. You know, you've got to wonder. And you know what it makes me think of is –.

[53:38] The Marvel question, right, in Civil War, Captain America Civil War, the spoiler alert for the film. If you don't want to hear it, move forward. OK, three, two, one. All right, here we go. At the beginning of the film, the team is chasing dude down and we wind up blowing up a side of a building and people get hurt and all sorts of stuff. Right. It's not the team that gets it blowed up. It's the bad guy who blows it up. And the bad guy is the one who did blow it up. The bad guy is responsible for doing it.

[54:15] But it lands back on the shoulders of the team, of the superhero team, right? And then we go into this whole thing about whether or not you should have oversight and whether or not. And the team splits because of it, because of how they want to treat it from there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's the thing. The team was not responsible for that building blowing up. The team did not blow up the thing. Now, this is probably where Brent's going to lean back on a Star Trek stuff here, Jeff. Okay. All right. Just because you choose to do something bad and I save your life, that does not mean I am responsible for your actions. I am only responsible for my actions. And when I value life, that means I also value your life. You make your choices. I make my choices. I am going to value. Now, I don't want you to hurt somebody else, right? Yeah. But just because I save your life does not mean that I am now responsible for all the bad stuff that you do throughout the rest of your life. It just doesn't mean that. Yeah. But. But.

[55:19] You have to answer the question from Lanier. Did you just sacrifice the future by letting this person go? Okay, go all the way back. Let's say you're out hiking one day. You come across somebody who is down in a ravine. They can't get out, and they're going to die unless you welcome them. And that little person there is a young Adolf Hitler. Yeah, right. Do you rescue him or not? Yeah. Now, that's the most extreme example you could ever think of, right?

[55:45] But like you just let him go right it's like yeah and it's hard too because I think because of you know specifically the way like time works and stuff you can't answer that question you don't know, right you can never know right also you don't given the time you don't know who that guy is so he's just some dude choice yeah make your choice so that that I think is the bigger thing everything else we really talked about during the middle of the episode and i don't necessarily care to rehash it here yeah i agree how about you did you give me anything else nothing more i think i think just the same thing that you got it's and it's all in linear in this one, well brent with that big big question for you on this one i hope your shoulders are feeling strong because you're gonna have to shoulder this question all on your own my friend, we are creating once again the objectively correct ranking of all of the episodes of the third season of Babylon five currently matters of honor is in the top and only spot in a second one this week Brent where does convictions go it goes number two are you sure about that it does it goes number two yeah yeah yeah it goes number two uh listen mission accomplished or not the production stuff the the values the cool camera shots that frankly I did not notice the first time around and all that I have all the respect in the world for what they're doing. I think JMS was right.

[57:12] If this is the worst episode of season three, it is head and shoulders above better than the worst episodes of season one. Yeah. Right. I didn't hate this episode. I'm not turning off this. You know, on the laundry list, I'm still doing laundry while this episode is playing. I'm not turning it off, but it's not one I'm going to pay a ton of attention to time and time again. Right. Until it's Londo and Jakar on the on the screen. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? But yeah, overall, I, you know, litmus test. Which one would I rather watch first? I'm going to watch matters of honor first before I watch this one again. So this one goes into number two. It makes sense. You'll last week we asked about, uh, the first time ranking. And so to cover that matters of honor ended in the 13th, number 13. Okay. For the strong season, strong season. I'm sure it's not lower, very strong season. Uh, convictions landed at number 17.

[58:05] Also surprised. It's not lower. What was five episodes worse than this one? Okay, fine. Fair enough. I, i know what the last one was but yes you do yes you do all right well brent that's going to do it for convictions next week we're going to move on to the third episode which is a day in the strife, do you remember what you predicted for a day in the strife i do i said this was going to be about marcus we're going to get marcus and he's going to be doing ranger stuff right yeah it's it's just picture of a day in the life of marcus the ranger and he's just out rangering that's it um i i was like this is not keffer 2.0 oh like he's he's gonna be legit yeah yeah it turns out i was right a little bit yeah yeah kind of i was right about him not being careful 2.0 i was completely wrong about what the episode was about but how about you what'd you predict oh i was also uh pretty wrong. I thought this was going to be Jakar getting closer to rock bottom. Standing up, getting the resistance going, but just no one taking him seriously.

[59:11] Whatsoever. And next week, we're going to see just how far, we already know how far off we, we ran kind of close and for everything, but we're going to watch that one next week right here. You don't want to miss that. So make sure that wherever you're at, you are subscribed. So you know, when that comes out, it hits, you can be one of the first to see it. One of the first to comment on it, all that cool stuff. If you haven't already, please leave us a rating, leave us a review. That would be awesome. We've been referencing them throughout the episode, But our council chambers, there's a subscriber tier on our Patreon. They get to join us for our recording. So you should check out our Patreon, patreon.com slash badnerds. If you want to be a part of that or have access to, I mean, just mountains of other content that we have created and are creating. If you want to support the show in a way that doesn't impact your pocketbook, which I completely understand, and you want to make a difference for us, share the show. That's the one thing you can truly do that makes the biggest difference in the world for us. We appreciate it so very much is just share this show with someone else who could enjoy listening to it. So with that, we're going to get out of here. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, Brent, what's up?

[1:00:24] Hey, listen, I hope tonight's recording went so well. I just haven't been feeling well lately. Like, are you sick? Well, I kind of like I had to go to the doctor earlier this week. They said it's this thing called egg syndrome. And unfortunately, it basically like takes a miracle to be able to get the medicine for it. And I don't know if there's any truth to it. But to me, it just sort of seems all very political. You know that there's no connection between the truth and politics. Maybe. But I got to tell you, whoever's behind this really honked me off.