Sailing the High Seas of History with Peter Armstrong

0:04 Welcome to AMSEcast, coming to you from Oak Ridge, Tennessee, a global leader in science, technology, and innovation. My name is Alan Lowe, director of the American Museum of Science and Energy, and the K-25 History Center. Each episode of AMSEcast presents world-renowned authors, scientists, historians, policymakers, and everyone in between, sharing their insights on a variety of fascinating topics. Welcome to AMSEcast. On this episode, we continue our series celebrating 250 years of American innovation, thanks to a generous grant from the Institute for Museum and Library Services.

0:46 Our guest today is Peter Armstrong, the president of the Mystic Seaport Museum, a position he’s held since 2020. Prior to that, Peter had most recently been the senior director of museum operations and education for the Jamestown-Yorktown Foundation, and before that he had served at the United Kingdom’s National Museum of Arms and Armor, which features three museums including the Tower of London. Peter, you’ve had a really incredible career. Thanks so much for joining us on AMSEcast. Thank you, and thanks for the compliment. 25 years of museum management. That’s pretty amazing. And I love the Tower of London and Jamestown-Yorktown, one of my favorite places to visit. I used to live in the D.C. Area for many years and made the trip down several times.

1:28 And I want to make it to Mystic. To start, tell us a bit about Mystic. When was Mystic founded and how did it become a center of shipping and shipbuilding? On the Mystic River has always been a center for shipbuilding overall, and it’s been, you know, since settled here in 1654, and they have been building ships ever since. It’s a safe harbor. The interesting thing is that the Mystic River is not called Mystic because of the English word is called Mystic; it’s a derivation of the indigenous people’s word. And it’s not a river. It’s an inlet from the sound. So, when you get past Mystic Seaport, you go about another half a mile and it ends. And also Mystic is a town where one side of the river is called Groton and the other side is called Stolenton, so there’s no real Mystic.

2:10 So, there’s your answer when you’re in your pub quiz. There’s no Mystic River. But on the river, there’s been shipbuilding for hundreds and hundreds of years, and we actually sit on the site which used to belong to the Greenman Brothers, who are large shipbuilders here. And we like to say that our shipyard that we have—which I’ll explain in a minute—is still building ships. So, we continue on that wooden shipbuilding tradition. But Mystic Seaport itself is the largest maritime museum in America. So, it’s often thought it might be in New York or San Francisco or Los Angeles or one of those places where ports are more well known, but in fact, Mystic Seaport, we take it by the number of visitors and objects and size and boats, et cetera, it’s the largest maritime museum in America.

2:55 So, we operate here in Mystic on the Mystic River. Just amazing. I can’t wait to visit. Tell us a bit that—you have the shipbuilding yard—tell us what else people can see and do when they come to the Mystic Seaport Museum. Sure. Well, the site covers about 14 acres in total. And a lot of that runs along the side of the river as I speak. So, we start at one end, we have a thing called the AINS, which is the American Institute for Maritime Studies, and that’s our academic team, and they all sit within one building called the Rossie Mill, a huge, old brick velvet mill here in Mystic. And they have their offices there and they have all of their library there, the Blunt White Library, and they also have all the objects that you keep in the vaults and in the storage in the Rossie Mill.

3:40 But the Rossie Mill also contains about 500 small wooden American watercraft, which we think is the largest collection of American watercraft in the world. And it’s just about to go on display in the Rossie Mill next year, so we’re going to take those 500 boats and put 175 of them on display in a 35,000 square foot exhibition, which will be Rossie Mill. So, that’s one end. And then when you come into the museum itself and purchase your ticket, or you don’t purchase a ticket if you stay with the hotel which you just built next door to us. So, we also have a hotel there as well. And then when you go through that, you then enter what is really a museum, your traditional museum.

4:21 There’s about six different galleries looking at lots of different subjects—some of them rotate and some of them are permanent—but looking at, really, the American story of the maritime industry. And then you’re into the site itself, which is really beautiful because it sits on the Mystic River and it’s just a nice place to visit in its own right, but it also has an historic village where we have about 30 or so buildings that have been brought here that tell the story, again, of maritime. So, you can go to the blacksmiths, you can go and see the cooperage, you can see all those. So, that’s, kind of, on land. And there’s the usual restaurants and cafes and things you would expect of a museum, as well, in the shop. And then on the water, that’s where our boats are, historic boats. The key one being the Charles W. Morgan, which is the world’s oldest wooden whaler still floating.

5:06 And so, you can see the historic boats on there, and then you can make your way to the shipyard. And the shipyard is a large historic wooden boat working shipyard. So, I have about 26 shipwrights in there who are, at the moment, refurbishing and fixing up the Susan Constant, which is a boat that was down in Jamestown. So, we take these historical large ships that nobody can take to the modern day shipyards anymore, and they come here and we take them out of the water and we refurbish, build, fix, et cetera those in particular. So, the craft is still happening. It’s such an amazing place. Again, I can’t wait to visit. And you mentioned the Charles Morgan whaling ship.

5:46 When we’re talking about innovations—and Peter, you have to remember, I’m from Kentucky originally, so I’m a landlubber; I’m learning all these things, all right?—so whaling ships. Tell me what makes a whaling ship different from another type of ship? Well, you know, the whaling ship is a little bit like a, kind of, factory on the water. It captures the whales, and then of course it has to create that whale from the animal itself into all the different components. The most important was, in the period of the Charles W. Morgan, is the oil, and how that oil is used to make lamps and used in the manufacturing. You have to remember that the time of the period of the great whaling ships in America—and in the world because America dominated the world in whaling ships, a lot of them coming from Nantucket, which is a, you know, where you get the Moby Dick story from—that’s in the part when the Industrial Revolution is starting.

6:36 And so, the whaling oil is often also used to keep the lubrication going within those machinery. So, it’s kind of, you know, it’s the whaling that oils the Industrial Revolution as well. So, a huge important industry to America and to the world. Another ship I know that we’ve all heard about, but I don’t really know what makes them what they are the clipper ships. So, what are clipper ships and what makes them unique? Well, we have a whole exhibition on clipper ships, so if anybody wants to come visit a museum, they can well dive in deep on the clipper ship story. But, you know, really the clipper ship comes into [part] when we start doing overseas trading, when we [unintelligible] as quick as you can across there, loading them up and getting them back again as quickly as possible.

7:23 So, really slender hulls, and as many sails as you can get in there, and [unintelligible] . Some of them even had 35 sails on them. So, they’re swift ships to clip off the miles, hence the word clipper ships. The thing about the clipper ship is really it only becomes… so trade between nations by sea only becomes relevant when you can take the cost of the goods you’re getting from another country, the cost of getting it to the country or America, and then the price is still less than you would buy it in America. So, that’s the only reason that that process really works. So, the more you can move the stock quickly and cheaply, the more it is useful for you to use the clipper ships.

8:03 And of course, you know, there are very famous races between clipper ships to see who could move those goods as quickly as possible. And then there is—and when we look today at those cargo ships, they’re just a derivation of that, you know? The cargo ships that you see with the huge containers on the back of them are the same thing. How can I get as many of these goods across here as the cheapest price as possible so that I can actually sell those goods at a profit? And that’s why you’re starting to see, in fact, some of these container ships having sails. So, they’re starting to see some of these big huge ships that you see transporting containers starting to always have these massive sails on board as well. Because if you can go by sail and the wind, it doesn’t cost you anything in fuel. So, is that starting to become—a bit like the electric cars—is starting to become the innovation in the maritime world.

8:48 Interesting. I noticed online you have a clipper ship, am I correct? The David Crockett? Is that right? Yeah, the David Crockett, yeah. Yeah, yeah. As a Tennesseean, I had to at least note that, that you had that. So, that’s awesome. It was launched here at the Greenmanville’s shipyard, which is part of Mystic Seaport, but it did constant runs between New York and San Francisco. And then there’s a really famous sea shanty, which I’ll not bore you with singing, called the, “Leaving of the Liverpool,” which talks about the David Crockett leaving Liverpool. Well, maybe we’ll have some extra value for AMSEcast listeners in the future with us singing that song together, but we can do that later, Peter. Steam changed everything.

9:28 We’ve often remarked around here, so much still is powered by steam in our society. When did steam boat technology come to America, and how did it come here? So, we think it’s around about 1814, commercial success really started with steamboating, when we got, like, regular services on the New Orleans, and Louisiana, and the Mississippi, et cetera. That’s when it becomes at its—first really introduced. But you know, it’s been credited being built well—being developed well before that period. But really when it comes into its own, when you can actually, again, be able to produce it and deliver it in a way that’s cost effective, and that’s been around about 1814 or so. But there’s an interesting steam story here at Mystic because we have a steam-powered boat, coal-powered boat, which is called the Sabino.

10:16 And the Sabino moves about 70 or so people every day on trips up the river here at the museum, 25 minute trips, and it can do six times a day. So, you know, you can buy a ticket while you’re here. But recently, as we were moving Sabino up and down the river using coal, there’s two things we discovered: one was that you need engineers who can run the steam ships, and they’re becoming few and far between. It’s not a particularly nice job to be down there shoveling coal, so it’s difficult to find people. But they have to have a certificate and that’s not easy to get, either, so it’s become more and more difficult. The second thing we knew was that to get the steam boiler up to the right temperature and to producing the steam necessary to run the boat takes about three hours and to cool it down takes about two hours, it cuts down your whole day really on that [unintelligible] . And then finally, we were using the same amount of carbon to take the boat up and down the river in one trip as it was to drive a car from here in Connecticut to Alaska.

11:13 So, it wasn’t really environmentally friendly. And as a museum, as a maritime museum, we really got to consider the environment side of it. And so, we recently took Sabino out and converted into a diesel electric and she now operates as a diesel electric, although we still have the steam whistle, if when necessary, to blow it. The whistle is the important part, so that’s great [laugh] . Yeah, you know, what we also did was we ensured that the steam engine remained in the Sabino. So, although it’s run by diesel electric, you can see the steam engine moving, and you can and if it was ever necessary, we could restart it, if necessary. So, the transition from wind to steam, also a transition from wooden to ironclad ships and beyond, so do you talk about the advent of ironclad ships in Mystic?

11:57 Is that something you talk about in your museum programs? Here in Mystic, we do have some ironclad boats, but actually we’ve more concentrated in a period of time that’s the peak of the wooden boats. So, we do have some. We have the Roann, which is a National Heritage Boat, a part of the American heritage because it’s the one of the last fishing ships of its type. Although people perceive us obviously, and we do talk about things like yachting and sailing and racing, et cetera, a lot of the museum concentrates on that thing that your father or your grandfather would have done: fishing or oyster-catching or wailing or all those kinds of things. So, there is a whole area looking at, kind of, how the technology has moved on. And of course, the technology continues to move on.

12:39 So, I talked a little bit about the watercraft hall that we’re going to turn into these 170-odd ships, but that’s taking you from the indigenous person’s kayak that’s made out of skin that’s on there, through the wooden, through the ironclad, metalclad, and then into fiberglass, and now into these, kind of, solar-paneled, unmanned boats that are out there scouring the oceans for data and information. I think 3D printing and all that’s coming into the mix, I’m sure. And so, that’s one of the reasons why as a museum where we’re really keen on continuing to keep those crafts going. So, it’s interesting that the shipbuilders that I have down in the shipyard are often young men and women; they’re not necessarily what you’d imagine, the retired guy who wants to work on the ship.

13:24 They are young people who particularly want to work with their hands, outdoors, on big pieces of wood. I think the importance of innovation, balanced by the respect and importance of heritage history and what’s come before. I think that’s very important as part of this discussion we’re having here at AMSE. Let’s talk, I saw online you have some elements of your exhibit about lighthouses. We have a lighthouse. A—oh, you have a lighthouse. A lighthouse, yes. And it’s a copy of the lighthouse that you’d find on Nantucket. In my world of Britain, it’s not a very big one. [laugh] . But when I knew we had a lighthouse and I came to see it, I thought it was a lighthouse—I used to live on the North East coast of England, and there was a number of lighthouses that were like, I don’t know, 238 steps to the top.

14:10 This one’s about eight. So. I will be ready. I’ll know what type of lighthouse, when I come to visit. But I learned, I don’t know what kind of lens that has, but I was really interested when I was preparing for today of looking at this Fresnel lens that was invented, and came into great use, obviously revolutionized lighthouses. Do you know what’s so special about that lens? It was invented by a Frenchman, but we took it up, for sure, here in America. It’s just the fact that that particular shape of the lens and the way that the lenses work allow the light coming from the lamp to be really magnified and then sent just in one direction. Do you think about a lighthouse, you know, that light goes in one direction, and it turns slowly, and keeps that so you can see the speed of the light will depend on which lighthouse it actually is and how many times it flashes and all those kinds of things.

14:57 But really it’s about how do you take that, what was the time, would have been a lens lit by oil, and then take that light coming from that, magnify it, and then even more importantly, send it in one direction rather than spreading out across them. So, Fresnel lenses are still operated today. You still see lighthouses today which would use the Fresnel lens. I see. So, lighthouses still important today with GPS and all the other technology? Yeah, they’re still—I mean, less important than it would be than it used to be, but I mean any kind of safety is important, so I guess they’re still operating, and they’re used, and there’s still a visitor attraction for people to go and see them. Where do Americans build ships today?

15:37 So, you know, a lot of American ships are currently built from a defense point of view. So, you know, when I used to live in Norfolk in Virginia, there’s a huge shipbuilding going on down there, particularly attached to building aircraft carriers, and that employs thousands and thousands and thousands of people. But also the submarines here in Gr—so we’re right next to Groton, and Groton is kind of seen as the submarine capital of the world. So, they can only build the nuclear submarines down there with the E.B. Electric Boat. And again, the museum has a strong relationship with that, and we do some work with apprenticeships. But also this thing about we have this phrase in the maritime world of ship, shipmates, self.

16:21 So, it’s kind of your ship comes first, then you look after your shipmates, and then you look after yourself. And so, that kind of, as we would call it in French, esprit de corps, really understanding where you come from, and what your history is, and why we have museums in the first place. We use that very much with these employees, from Electric Boat. So, you know, they’re working on these modern-day submarines, they’re going in and doing high-level technology, but where does the story really come from? And they’re continuing a tradition that they should be proud of being part of. And, you know, I’d love to say that a lot of American ships are made from America, but they’re not. They’re built all over the world, like everybody else. And it’s the same thing: what is the best price you can get? We’d love to talk more with you and your colleagues there.

17:02 Oak Ridge is seen as the birthplace of the nuclear navy. This is where Rickover came, and all that idea had its genesis, so we’d love to see about collaborations there in the future. Yeah, you know, we just recently, as a museum, the Nautilus, which is the first nuclear-powered submarine, which is part of a museum just down the road from us, recently needed its deck replacing, and unbelievably, its decks made of teak. So, it’s got a wooden deck, even though it’s a nuclear submarine. And again, didn’t have anybody to do their work that could do it, so they came to the Seaport, and we rebuilt the deck for them on the nuclear submarine. So, as well as doing what we’re currently doing, which is building and helping to reconstruct a boat from 1607, we also do the nuclear submarine as well [laugh] . That’s awesome.

17:51 That’s really impressive. Well, work on our listeners learn more about all you do at Mystic? There’s a few ways. Obviously, the website is something to go and look at, mysticseaport.org, to go and dig deep. I would challenge you to really dig deep in the website because people go there, they click, and they look at the first page and the second page and find out the prices and then come and visit, but as you start to really dig into the site, you’ll see a lot more information, particularly in our collection side of it. So, I would ask people to really start diving. I have this expression for museum goers, which is paddlers, swimmers, and divers, which is if you’re a paddler, it’s somebody who comes for a day out, spends a nice day out, and gets their feet a bit wet. The swimmer is a guy who probably read a few books about it, watched a few DVDs, seen a few movies about historic ships, and come for a visit for that.

18:38 And then the diver is the person who really wants to get into it. And so, I would advise you to dive in the website and have a really good look. But obviously visiting us is the best thing to do here in Mystic. You know, so we’re halfway between Boston and New York, across the 95. And if you’re driving the 95 between Boston and New York, you’d want to get offered at some point, and I would recommend you get off it at Mystic and then come and visit the museum. And, you know, once you become a member of the museum, then there are a lot of things are sent to you: the magazine, the details. So, you know, if you happen to be here this weekend, President’s weekend, I’m sure your museum has something going on as well, but we have what we call Winter Tide. So, that allows people to come in and just really get the—here where I am at the moment, where we’re about six inches of snow on the ground, so get out of the house and come and visit the museum.

19:23 And so, we have a lot of activities, but including some live reindeer that are coming. And then a lot of nautical connections as well. Very exciting. I can’t wait to visit. Peter, I really appreciate you joining us on AMSEcast. Thank you so much. No problem. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this episode of AMSEcast. For more information on this topic or any others, you can always visit us at AMSE.org or find, like, and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. I invite you to visit the American Museum of Science and Energy and the K-25 History Center in person. You can also shop at our online store and become a member at AMSE.org.

20:06 Thanks to our production team with Matt Mullins, plus our supportive colleagues at the Department of Energy’s Office of Science, Office of Environmental Management, and Office of Legacy Management, as well as Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the Y-12 National Security Complex, NNSA, and the AMSE Foundation. And of course, thanks to our wonderful guests today, and to all of you for listening. I hope you’ll join us for the next episode of AMSEcast. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, I would like to ask that you consider becoming a member of the 117 Society, the newest membership opportunity offered by the American Museum of Science and Energy Foundation. By joining the 117 Society, you will help us continue this podcast and our other innovative programming.

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