Sailing the High Seas of History with Peter Armstrong

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Welcome to AMSEcast, coming to you from Oak Ridge, Tennessee,

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a global leader in science, technology, and innovation.

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My name is Alan Lowe, director of the American Museum

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of Science and Energy, and the K-25 History Center.

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Each episode of AMSEcast presents world-renowned authors,

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scientists, historians, policymakers, and everyone in between,

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sharing their insights on a variety of fascinating topics.

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Welcome to AMSEcast.

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On this episode, we continue our series celebrating 250

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years of American innovation, thanks to a generous grant

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from the Institute for Museum and Library Services.

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Our guest today is Peter Armstrong, the president of the

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Mystic Seaport Museum, a position he’s held since 2020.

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Prior to that, Peter had most recently been the senior director of museum

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operations and education for the Jamestown-Yorktown Foundation, and

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before that he had served at the United Kingdom’s National Museum of Arms

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and Armor, which features three museums including the Tower of London.

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Peter, you’ve had a really incredible career.

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Thanks so much for joining us on AMSEcast.

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Thank you, and thanks for the compliment.

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25 years of museum management.

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That’s pretty amazing.

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And I love the Tower of London and Jamestown-Yorktown,

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one of my favorite places to visit.

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I used to live in the D.C. Area for many

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years and made the trip down several times.

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And I want to make it to Mystic.

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To start, tell us a bit about Mystic.

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When was Mystic founded and how did it

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become a center of shipping and shipbuilding?

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On the Mystic River has always been a center for shipbuilding

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overall, and it’s been, you know, since settled here

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in 1654, and they have been building ships ever since.

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It’s a safe harbor.

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The interesting thing is that the Mystic River is not

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called Mystic because of the English word is called

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Mystic; it’s a derivation of the indigenous people’s word.

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And it’s not a river.

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It’s an inlet from the sound.

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So, when you get past Mystic Seaport, you

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go about another half a mile and it ends.

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And also Mystic is a town where one side of the river is called Groton

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and the other side is called Stolenton, so there’s no real Mystic.

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So, there’s your answer when you’re in your pub quiz.

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There’s no Mystic River.

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But on the river, there’s been shipbuilding for hundreds and

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hundreds of years, and we actually sit on the site which used to

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belong to the Greenman Brothers, who are large shipbuilders here.

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And we like to say that our shipyard that we have—which

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I’ll explain in a minute—is still building ships.

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So, we continue on that wooden shipbuilding tradition.

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But Mystic Seaport itself is the largest maritime museum in America.

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So, it’s often thought it might be in New York or San Francisco or Los

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Angeles or one of those places where ports are more well known, but in

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fact, Mystic Seaport, we take it by the number of visitors and objects and

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size and boats, et cetera, it’s the largest maritime museum in America.

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So, we operate here in Mystic on the Mystic River.

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Just amazing.

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I can’t wait to visit.

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Tell us a bit that—you have the shipbuilding yard—tell us what else

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people can see and do when they come to the Mystic Seaport Museum.

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Sure.

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Well, the site covers about 14 acres in total.

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And a lot of that runs along the side of the river as I speak.

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So, we start at one end, we have a thing called the AINS, which

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is the American Institute for Maritime Studies, and that’s

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our academic team, and they all sit within one building called

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the Rossie Mill, a huge, old brick velvet mill here in Mystic.

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And they have their offices there and they have all of their library

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there, the Blunt White Library, and they also have all the objects

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that you keep in the vaults and in the storage in the Rossie Mill.

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But the Rossie Mill also contains about 500 small wooden American watercraft,

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which we think is the largest collection of American watercraft in the world.

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And it’s just about to go on display in the Rossie Mill next year,

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so we’re going to take those 500 boats and put 175 of them on display

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in a 35,000 square foot exhibition, which will be Rossie Mill.

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So, that’s one end.

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And then when you come into the museum itself and purchase

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your ticket, or you don’t purchase a ticket if you stay

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with the hotel which you just built next door to us.

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So, we also have a hotel there as well.

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And then when you go through that, you then enter

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what is really a museum, your traditional museum.

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There’s about six different galleries looking at lots of different

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subjects—some of them rotate and some of them are permanent—but

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looking at, really, the American story of the maritime industry.

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And then you’re into the site itself, which is really beautiful because

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it sits on the Mystic River and it’s just a nice place to visit in its own

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right, but it also has an historic village where we have about 30 or so

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buildings that have been brought here that tell the story, again, of maritime.

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So, you can go to the blacksmiths, you can go

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and see the cooperage, you can see all those.

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So, that’s, kind of, on land.

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And there’s the usual restaurants and cafes and things

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you would expect of a museum, as well, in the shop.

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And then on the water, that’s where our boats are, historic boats.

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The key one being the Charles W. Morgan, which is

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the world’s oldest wooden whaler still floating.

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And so, you can see the historic boats on there,

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and then you can make your way to the shipyard.

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And the shipyard is a large historic wooden boat working shipyard.

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So, I have about 26 shipwrights in there who are, at the moment, refurbishing

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and fixing up the Susan Constant, which is a boat that was down in Jamestown.

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So, we take these historical large ships that nobody can take to the

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modern day shipyards anymore, and they come here and we take them out of

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the water and we refurbish, build, fix, et cetera those in particular.

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So, the craft is still happening.

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It’s such an amazing place.

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Again, I can’t wait to visit.

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And you mentioned the Charles Morgan whaling ship.

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When we’re talking about innovations—and Peter, you have to

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remember, I’m from Kentucky originally, so I’m a landlubber;

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I’m learning all these things, all right?—so whaling ships.

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Tell me what makes a whaling ship different from another type of ship?

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Well, you know, the whaling ship is a little

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bit like a, kind of, factory on the water.

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It captures the whales, and then of course it has to create that

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whale from the animal itself into all the different components.

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The most important was, in the period of the Charles W. Morgan, is the

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oil, and how that oil is used to make lamps and used in the manufacturing.

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You have to remember that the time of the period of the great whaling ships in

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America—and in the world because America dominated the world in whaling ships, a

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lot of them coming from Nantucket, which is a, you know, where you get the Moby

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Dick story from—that’s in the part when the Industrial Revolution is starting.

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And so, the whaling oil is often also used to

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keep the lubrication going within those machinery.

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So, it’s kind of, you know, it’s the whaling

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that oils the Industrial Revolution as well.

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So, a huge important industry to America and to the world.

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Another ship I know that we’ve all heard about, but I don’t

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really know what makes them what they are the clipper ships.

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So, what are clipper ships and what makes them unique?

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Well, we have a whole exhibition on clipper ships, so if anybody wants to

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come visit a museum, they can well dive in deep on the clipper ship story.

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But, you know, really the clipper ship comes into [part] when we start

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doing overseas trading, when we [unintelligible] as quick as you can across

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there, loading them up and getting them back again as quickly as possible.

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So, really slender hulls, and as many sails as you can get in there,

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and [unintelligible] . Some of them even had 35 sails on them.

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So, they’re swift ships to clip off the miles, hence the word clipper ships.

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The thing about the clipper ship is really it only becomes… so trade between

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nations by sea only becomes relevant when you can take the cost of the goods

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you’re getting from another country, the cost of getting it to the country or

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America, and then the price is still less than you would buy it in America.

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So, that’s the only reason that that process really works.

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So, the more you can move the stock quickly and cheaply,

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the more it is useful for you to use the clipper ships.

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And of course, you know, there are very famous races between clipper

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ships to see who could move those goods as quickly as possible.

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And then there is—and when we look today at those cargo

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ships, they’re just a derivation of that, you know?

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The cargo ships that you see with the huge

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containers on the back of them are the same thing.

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How can I get as many of these goods across here as the cheapest

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price as possible so that I can actually sell those goods at a profit?

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And that’s why you’re starting to see, in fact,

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some of these container ships having sails.

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So, they’re starting to see some of these big huge

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ships that you see transporting containers starting

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to always have these massive sails on board as well.

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Because if you can go by sail and the

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wind, it doesn’t cost you anything in fuel.

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So, is that starting to become—a bit like the electric cars—is

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starting to become the innovation in the maritime world.

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Interesting.

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I noticed online you have a clipper ship, am I correct?

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The David Crockett?

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Is that right?

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Yeah, the David Crockett, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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As a Tennesseean, I had to at least note that, that you had that.

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So, that’s awesome.

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It was launched here at the Greenmanville’s shipyard, which is part of

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Mystic Seaport, but it did constant runs between New York and San Francisco.

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And then there’s a really famous sea shanty, which I’ll not

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bore you with singing, called the, “Leaving of the Liverpool,”

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which talks about the David Crockett leaving Liverpool.

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Well, maybe we’ll have some extra value for AMSEcast listeners in the

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future with us singing that song together, but we can do that later, Peter.

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Steam changed everything.

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We’ve often remarked around here, so much

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still is powered by steam in our society.

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When did steam boat technology come to America, and how did it come here?

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So, we think it’s around about 1814, commercial success really

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started with steamboating, when we got, like, regular services on

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the New Orleans, and Louisiana, and the Mississippi, et cetera.

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That’s when it becomes at its—first really introduced.

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But you know, it’s been credited being built

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well—being developed well before that period.

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But really when it comes into its own, when you can actually,

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again, be able to produce it and deliver it in a way that’s

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cost effective, and that’s been around about 1814 or so.

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But there’s an interesting steam story here at Mystic because we have

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a steam-powered boat, coal-powered boat, which is called the Sabino.

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And the Sabino moves about 70 or so people every day on trips up the

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river here at the museum, 25 minute trips, and it can do six times a day.

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So, you know, you can buy a ticket while you’re here.

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But recently, as we were moving Sabino up and down the river using

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coal, there’s two things we discovered: one was that you need engineers

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who can run the steam ships, and they’re becoming few and far between.

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It’s not a particularly nice job to be down there

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shoveling coal, so it’s difficult to find people.

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But they have to have a certificate and that’s not easy

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to get, either, so it’s become more and more difficult.

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The second thing we knew was that to get the steam boiler up to the right

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temperature and to producing the steam necessary to run the boat takes

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about three hours and to cool it down takes about two hours, it cuts down

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your whole day really on that [unintelligible] . And then finally, we were

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using the same amount of carbon to take the boat up and down the river

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in one trip as it was to drive a car from here in Connecticut to Alaska.

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So, it wasn’t really environmentally friendly.

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And as a museum, as a maritime museum, we really

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got to consider the environment side of it.

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And so, we recently took Sabino out and converted into a diesel

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electric and she now operates as a diesel electric, although

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we still have the steam whistle, if when necessary, to blow it.

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The whistle is the important part, so that’s great [laugh]

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.
Yeah, you know, what we also did was we ensured

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that the steam engine remained in the Sabino.

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So, although it’s run by diesel electric, you can see the steam engine moving,

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and you can and if it was ever necessary, we could restart it, if necessary.

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So, the transition from wind to steam, also a transition from wooden to ironclad

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ships and beyond, so do you talk about the advent of ironclad ships in Mystic?

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Is that something you talk about in your museum programs?

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Here in Mystic, we do have some ironclad boats, but actually we’ve more

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concentrated in a period of time that’s the peak of the wooden boats.

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So, we do have some.

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We have the Roann, which is a National Heritage Boat, a part of the American

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heritage because it’s the one of the last fishing ships of its type.

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Although people perceive us obviously, and we do talk about things

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like yachting and sailing and racing, et cetera, a lot of the museum

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concentrates on that thing that your father or your grandfather would have

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done: fishing or oyster-catching or wailing or all those kinds of things.

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So, there is a whole area looking at, kind of, how the technology has moved on.

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And of course, the technology continues to move on.

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So, I talked a little bit about the watercraft hall that we’re going

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to turn into these 170-odd ships, but that’s taking you from the

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indigenous person’s kayak that’s made out of skin that’s on there,

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through the wooden, through the ironclad, metalclad, and then into

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fiberglass, and now into these, kind of, solar-paneled, unmanned

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boats that are out there scouring the oceans for data and information.

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I think 3D printing and all that’s coming into the mix, I’m sure.

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And so, that’s one of the reasons why as a museum where

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we’re really keen on continuing to keep those crafts going.

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So, it’s interesting that the shipbuilders that I have down in the

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shipyard are often young men and women; they’re not necessarily

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what you’d imagine, the retired guy who wants to work on the ship.

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They are young people who particularly want to work

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with their hands, outdoors, on big pieces of wood.

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I think the importance of innovation, balanced by the respect

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and importance of heritage history and what’s come before.

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I think that’s very important as part of

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this discussion we’re having here at AMSE.

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Let’s talk, I saw online you have some

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elements of your exhibit about lighthouses.

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We have a lighthouse.

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A—oh, you have a lighthouse.

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A lighthouse, yes.

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And it’s a copy of the lighthouse that you’d find on Nantucket.

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In my world of Britain, it’s not a very big one.

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[laugh]

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.
But

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when I knew we had a lighthouse and I came to see it, I thought it was a

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lighthouse—I used to live on the North East coast of England, and there was

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a number of lighthouses that were like, I don’t know, 238 steps to the top.

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This one’s about eight.

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So.

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I will be ready.

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I’ll know what type of lighthouse, when I come to visit.

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But I learned, I don’t know what kind of lens that has, but I was really

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interested when I was preparing for today of looking at this Fresnel lens that

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was invented, and came into great use, obviously revolutionized lighthouses.

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Do you know what’s so special about that lens?

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It was invented by a Frenchman, but we took it up, for sure, here in America.

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It’s just the fact that that particular shape of the lens and

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the way that the lenses work allow the light coming from the

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lamp to be really magnified and then sent just in one direction.

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Do you think about a lighthouse, you know, that light goes in one

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direction, and it turns slowly, and keeps that so you can see the

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speed of the light will depend on which lighthouse it actually

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is and how many times it flashes and all those kinds of things.

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But really it’s about how do you take that, what was the time,

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would have been a lens lit by oil, and then take that light

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coming from that, magnify it, and then even more importantly,

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send it in one direction rather than spreading out across them.

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So, Fresnel lenses are still operated today.

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You still see lighthouses today which would use the Fresnel lens.

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I see.

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So, lighthouses still important today with GPS and all the other technology?

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Yeah, they’re still—I mean, less important than it would be than

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it used to be, but I mean any kind of safety is important, so

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I guess they’re still operating, and they’re used, and there’s

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still a visitor attraction for people to go and see them.

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Where do Americans build ships today?

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So, you know, a lot of American ships are

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currently built from a defense point of view.

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So, you know, when I used to live in Norfolk in Virginia, there’s a huge

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shipbuilding going on down there, particularly attached to building aircraft

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carriers, and that employs thousands and thousands and thousands of people.

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But also the submarines here in Gr—so we’re right next to Groton,

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and Groton is kind of seen as the submarine capital of the world.

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So, they can only build the nuclear submarines

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down there with the E.B. Electric Boat.

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And again, the museum has a strong relationship

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with that, and we do some work with apprenticeships.

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But also this thing about we have this phrase

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in the maritime world of ship, shipmates, self.

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So, it’s kind of your ship comes first, then you look

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after your shipmates, and then you look after yourself.

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And so, that kind of, as we would call it in French, esprit

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de corps, really understanding where you come from, and what

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your history is, and why we have museums in the first place.

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We use that very much with these employees, from Electric Boat.

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So, you know, they’re working on these modern-day submarines, they’re going

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in and doing high-level technology, but where does the story really come from?

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And they’re continuing a tradition that they should be proud of being part of.

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And, you know, I’d love to say that a lot of American

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ships are made from America, but they’re not.

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They’re built all over the world, like everybody else.

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And it’s the same thing: what is the best price you can get?

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We’d love to talk more with you and your colleagues there.

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Oak Ridge is seen as the birthplace of the nuclear navy.

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This is where Rickover came, and all that idea had its genesis,

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so we’d love to see about collaborations there in the future.

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Yeah, you know, we just recently, as a museum, the Nautilus, which is the first

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nuclear-powered submarine, which is part of a museum just down the road from us,

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recently needed its deck replacing, and unbelievably, its decks made of teak.

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So, it’s got a wooden deck, even though it’s a nuclear submarine.

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And again, didn’t have anybody to do their work that could do it, so they came

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to the Seaport, and we rebuilt the deck for them on the nuclear submarine.

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So, as well as doing what we’re currently doing, which

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is building and helping to reconstruct a boat from

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1607, we also do the nuclear submarine as well [laugh]

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.
That’s awesome.

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That’s really impressive.

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Well, work on our listeners learn more about all you do at Mystic?

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There’s a few ways.

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Obviously, the website is something to go and

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look at, mysticseaport.org, to go and dig deep.

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I would challenge you to really dig deep in the website because people go there,

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they click, and they look at the first page and the second page and find out the

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prices and then come and visit, but as you start to really dig into the site,

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you’ll see a lot more information, particularly in our collection side of it.

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So, I would ask people to really start diving.

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I have this expression for museum goers, which is paddlers, swimmers,

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and divers, which is if you’re a paddler, it’s somebody who comes

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for a day out, spends a nice day out, and gets their feet a bit wet.

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The swimmer is a guy who probably read a few books about it, watched a few

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DVDs, seen a few movies about historic ships, and come for a visit for that.

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And then the diver is the person who really wants to get into it.

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And so, I would advise you to dive in the website and have a really good look.

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But obviously visiting us is the best thing to do here in Mystic.

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You know, so we’re halfway between Boston and New York, across the 95.

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And if you’re driving the 95 between Boston and New York,

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you’d want to get offered at some point, and I would recommend

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you get off it at Mystic and then come and visit the museum.

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And, you know, once you become a member of the museum, then there

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are a lot of things are sent to you: the magazine, the details.

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So, you know, if you happen to be here this weekend,

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President’s weekend, I’m sure your museum has something

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going on as well, but we have what we call Winter Tide.

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So, that allows people to come in and just really get the—here

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where I am at the moment, where we’re about six inches of snow on

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the ground, so get out of the house and come and visit the museum.

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And so, we have a lot of activities, but

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including some live reindeer that are coming.

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And then a lot of nautical connections as well.

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Very exciting.

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I can’t wait to visit.

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Peter, I really appreciate you joining us on AMSEcast.

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Thank you so much.

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No problem.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for joining us on this episode of AMSEcast.

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For more information on this topic or any others, you can always visit us at

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AMSE.org or find, like, and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

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00:19:56,099 --> 00:19:58,286
I invite you to visit the American Museum of Science

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00:19:58,450 --> 00:20:01,230
and Energy and the K-25 History Center in person.

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00:20:01,549 --> 00:20:05,680
You can also shop at our online store and become a member at AMSE.org.

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00:20:06,170 --> 00:20:09,620
Thanks to our production team with Matt Mullins, plus our supportive colleagues

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00:20:09,630 --> 00:20:13,460
at the Department of Energy’s Office of Science, Office of Environmental

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00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:17,439
Management, and Office of Legacy Management, as well as Oak Ridge National

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00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:23,280
Laboratory, the Y-12 National Security Complex, NNSA, and the AMSE Foundation.

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00:20:23,789 --> 00:20:25,530
And of course, thanks to our wonderful guests

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today, and to all of you for listening.

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I hope you’ll join us for the next episode of AMSEcast.

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