Johnna Harris Part 2: Defunding Injustice and Redirecting SBC Donations to Protect the Vulnerable

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 You welcome to the A world of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:11,966 want to make a difference. We have back on 5 00:00:11,966 --> 00:00:14,494 the show today, Johnna Harris for part two 6 00:00:14,494 --> 00:00:17,022 of her two part episode here with us, 7 00:00:17,022 --> 00:00:19,294 where she's discussing her advocacy work 8 00:00:19,294 --> 00:00:21,038 in episode, the first episode, which is, 9 00:00:21,038 --> 00:00:23,646 if you haven't heard it, episode 166. 10 00:00:23,646 --> 00:00:25,046 Please go back and listen to that first, 11 00:00:25,046 --> 00:00:27,826 she shares her own story of spiritual 12 00:00:27,826 --> 00:00:29,298 abuse, where she was working on stuff at a 13 00:00:29,298 --> 00:00:31,078 church in California as a worship leader 14 00:00:31,078 --> 00:00:33,366 in the acts 29 network, which is a network 15 00:00:33,366 --> 00:00:35,234 that is very adjacent to the Southern 16 00:00:35,234 --> 00:00:37,138 Baptist Convention denomination, which 17 00:00:37,138 --> 00:00:38,758 we're going to dig a little bit into today 18 00:00:38,758 --> 00:00:40,714 as she talks about her advocacy work, not 19 00:00:40,714 --> 00:00:42,794 only in the Southern Baptist space, but 20 00:00:42,794 --> 00:00:44,698 also in the acts 29 network, of course, 21 00:00:44,698 --> 00:00:47,770 and then other denominations and churches 22 00:00:47,770 --> 00:00:49,978 and parachurch organizations, nonprofits, 23 00:00:49,978 --> 00:00:52,198 in the christian space, where she 24 00:00:52,198 --> 00:00:55,966 basically has worked through her podcast 25 00:00:55,966 --> 00:00:57,886 that she co hosts. It's called Bodies 26 00:00:57,886 --> 00:01:00,014 behind the bus podcast. I know many of you 27 00:01:00,014 --> 00:01:02,926 listen to that podcast I do as well I'm a 28 00:01:02,926 --> 00:01:06,946 a and I know many of you are too And this 29 00:01:06,946 --> 00:01:09,406 this a a where she sits and bears witness 30 00:01:09,406 --> 00:01:11,966 to the stories Of survivors of spiritual 31 00:01:11,966 --> 00:01:13,934 abuse.She has a real a for stories and 32 00:01:13,934 --> 00:01:16,078 believes they can be can catalyst for 33 00:01:16,078 --> 00:01:17,986 change I do too This is something we have 34 00:01:17,986 --> 00:01:21,206 in common I believe that our stories as we 35 00:01:21,206 --> 00:01:23,606 Share them together which is why I love 36 00:01:23,606 --> 00:01:25,446 this interview podcast where I got to sit 37 00:01:25,446 --> 00:01:27,186 and listen to stories of people's journeys 38 00:01:27,186 --> 00:01:28,774 how they're making a difference.I believe 39 00:01:28,774 --> 00:01:30,406 that stories really have the power to 40 00:01:30,406 --> 00:01:32,218 change And so this is one of the reasons 41 00:01:32,218 --> 00:01:34,346 Johnna and I have these very concentric 42 00:01:34,346 --> 00:01:36,554 circles of the podcast that she hosts And 43 00:01:36,554 --> 00:01:39,162 this one and the work that we each do that 44 00:01:39,162 --> 00:01:43,610 has some places where we agree and 45 00:01:43,610 --> 00:01:45,618 intersect and then other places where we 46 00:01:45,618 --> 00:01:47,214 do completely different things But happy 47 00:01:47,214 --> 00:01:49,294 to have her back on the show again today 48 00:01:49,294 --> 00:01:50,894 because her work is really making a 49 00:01:50,894 --> 00:01:52,094 difference making the life of many 50 00:01:52,094 --> 00:01:54,414 survivors just because really what we 51 00:01:54,414 --> 00:01:57,106 understand about trauma is when we have 52 00:01:57,106 --> 00:01:59,406 walked through trauma it rewires our brain 53 00:01:59,406 --> 00:02:01,522 And part of the ways we can kind of get it 54 00:02:01,522 --> 00:02:04,786 reset is to share our to of trauma with 55 00:02:04,786 --> 00:02:07,282 people who will listen to understand 56 00:02:07,282 --> 00:02:09,846 empathize with us and say that they 57 00:02:09,846 --> 00:02:12,806 believe us.And so that's part of the work 58 00:02:12,806 --> 00:02:13,986 that she does And it's huge It's really 59 00:02:13,986 --> 00:02:15,974 making a difference in ways a people feel 60 00:02:15,974 --> 00:02:18,534 heard and understood and believed And that 61 00:02:18,534 --> 00:02:20,346 is really critical for the healing process 62 00:02:20,346 --> 00:02:21,978 And I know many of you listening either 63 00:02:21,978 --> 00:02:23,894 walk through trauma yourself or an 64 00:02:23,894 --> 00:02:28,022 advocate for abuse survivors or are just 65 00:02:28,022 --> 00:02:30,854 interested in this topic today because you 66 00:02:30,854 --> 00:02:32,938 want today make a difference in whatever a 67 00:02:32,938 --> 00:02:34,606 you can for people who are walking through 68 00:02:34,606 --> 00:02:35,626 trauma and spiritual abuse.Specifically 69 00:02:35,626 --> 00:02:39,006 for Johnna Harris you can find her during 70 00:02:39,006 --> 00:02:40,906 the week being a mother to her four young 71 00:02:40,906 --> 00:02:42,654 kids talking with survivors of religious 72 00:02:42,654 --> 00:02:45,338 abuse and survivors as she says in her bio 73 00:02:45,338 --> 00:02:47,726 pissing off the dads brads and chads of 74 00:02:47,726 --> 00:02:48,558 western evangelicalism Because 75 00:02:48,558 --> 00:02:52,034 unfortunately as many of you know whether 76 00:02:52,034 --> 00:02:53,826 you have spoken out as a whistleblower of 77 00:02:53,826 --> 00:02:56,054 your own a someone else's abuse in the 78 00:02:56,054 --> 00:02:59,686 evangelical space here in the west or you 79 00:02:59,686 --> 00:03:03,346 sit on the sidelines and just watch and 80 00:03:03,346 --> 00:03:04,546 maybe you've experienced it yourself but 81 00:03:04,546 --> 00:03:07,818 you've don't want to speak up for very 82 00:03:07,818 --> 00:03:08,554 understandable reasons You've probably 83 00:03:08,554 --> 00:03:11,706 observed once or twice that speaking up 84 00:03:11,706 --> 00:03:14,746 and advocating in this space often does 85 00:03:14,746 --> 00:03:18,794 result in some people being angry And 86 00:03:18,794 --> 00:03:22,058 that's just the nature of pointing out the 87 00:03:22,058 --> 00:03:25,774 abuse of power to people that hold the 88 00:03:25,774 --> 00:03:27,534 power And so unfortunately that does 89 00:03:27,534 --> 00:03:30,506 happen.But I'm so grateful for the work 90 00:03:30,506 --> 00:03:32,186 that Johnna does It's really difficult And 91 00:03:32,186 --> 00:03:37,182 we are so grateful that she has are well 92 00:03:37,182 --> 00:03:39,954 until now for so many people by listening 93 00:03:39,954 --> 00:03:41,954 to their stories and giving them a 94 00:03:41,954 --> 00:03:45,042 platform stories share them in a way that 95 00:03:45,042 --> 00:03:47,634 brings awareness So a we're having her 96 00:03:47,634 --> 00:03:49,446 back on today talk about her advocacy work 97 00:03:49,446 --> 00:03:52,934 and we just want to always give that 98 00:03:52,934 --> 00:03:54,962 trigger warning So to you who have 99 00:03:54,962 --> 00:03:57,426 experienced abuse of any kind specifically 100 00:03:57,426 --> 00:04:00,166 spiritual abuse I wanted to let you know 101 00:04:00,166 --> 00:04:01,146 we will be discussing that today.So please 102 00:04:01,146 --> 00:04:03,834 take care of yourselves Go Maybe use some 103 00:04:03,834 --> 00:04:07,306 of your grounding techniques or something 104 00:04:07,306 --> 00:04:09,706 that's going to keep you focused on the 105 00:04:09,706 --> 00:04:11,034 here and now And if this particular 106 00:04:11,034 --> 00:04:14,342 podcast is not something that would be 107 00:04:14,342 --> 00:04:15,966 helpful for you today feel free to not 108 00:04:15,966 --> 00:04:17,806 listen or take it in chunks or whatever or 109 00:04:17,806 --> 00:04:19,694 best for you But once again prioritize 110 00:04:19,694 --> 00:04:22,494 your own self care because you matter and 111 00:04:22,494 --> 00:04:24,974 we want you to be well and to continue to 112 00:04:24,974 --> 00:04:26,626 work towards your own flourishing.And you 113 00:04:26,626 --> 00:04:29,826 deserve to heal So also it's a good time 114 00:04:29,826 --> 00:04:32,338 to mention the sponsor of this podcast 115 00:04:32,338 --> 00:04:33,982 which is betterhelp.com And I myself work 116 00:04:33,982 --> 00:04:37,654 with a is and this therapist is 117 00:04:37,654 --> 00:04:40,354 betterhelp.com I've been working with them 118 00:04:40,354 --> 00:04:43,046 on my own trauma recovery on grounding 119 00:04:43,046 --> 00:04:44,534 techniques somatic therapy journaling all 120 00:04:44,534 --> 00:04:48,038 kinds of worksheets that we've been 121 00:04:48,038 --> 00:04:49,334 working through working through some of 122 00:04:49,334 --> 00:04:51,206 the nightmares and the flashbacks and the 123 00:04:51,206 --> 00:04:53,354 things that happen with trauma the way the 124 00:04:53,354 --> 00:04:55,286 body keeps the score and all of those 125 00:04:55,286 --> 00:04:57,066 things that we are unpacking in the onion 126 00:04:57,066 --> 00:04:58,998 layers of it all together with a 127 00:04:58,998 --> 00:05:00,138 professional And if that's something that 128 00:05:00,138 --> 00:05:01,946 you would benefit from either from that 129 00:05:01,946 --> 00:05:03,758 traumatic experience that you've had from 130 00:05:03,758 --> 00:05:05,758 a kind of abuse spiritual abuse or any 131 00:05:05,758 --> 00:05:07,614 other type or just from a difficult 132 00:05:07,614 --> 00:05:10,174 relationship that you feel stuck in I 133 00:05:10,174 --> 00:05:12,686 really recommend betterhelp.com And if you 134 00:05:12,686 --> 00:05:15,506 go there we have a great thing to announce 135 00:05:15,506 --> 00:05:17,906 to you a can get 10 off your first month 136 00:05:17,906 --> 00:05:20,082 if you go to www.betterhelp.com difference 137 00:05:20,082 --> 00:05:25,230 That's www.betterhelp.com if to get 10 off 138 00:05:25,230 --> 00:05:31,574 your first month today So I am so excited 139 00:05:31,574 --> 00:05:34,726 to welcome once again my friend and host 140 00:05:34,726 --> 00:05:38,246 of Bodies behind the Bus podcast Johnna 141 00:05:38,246 --> 00:05:41,158 Harris.I'll be the first to tell everyone 142 00:05:41,158 --> 00:05:51,422 I am not an expert I am a podcaster I can 143 00:05:51,422 --> 00:05:55,454 hold stories and I can help people share 144 00:05:55,454 --> 00:05:57,502 stories I'm not and I didn't go to 145 00:05:57,502 --> 00:06:01,326 seminary I'm just me But I do think voices 146 00:06:01,326 --> 00:06:04,674 are powerful and I don't like that we're 147 00:06:04,674 --> 00:06:05,966 ontologically disqualifying voices 148 00:06:05,966 --> 00:06:09,250 anywhere any voices So I'm working through 149 00:06:09,250 --> 00:06:15,846 it still And I have found and I'm think 150 00:06:15,846 --> 00:06:18,166 Lori you will agree with this that female 151 00:06:18,166 --> 00:06:19,526 voices think, particular in the survivor 152 00:06:19,526 --> 00:06:22,182 community are targeted and treated 153 00:06:22,182 --> 00:06:26,114 differently.Yeah And I don't know what to 154 00:06:26,114 --> 00:06:30,218 do with that exactly No I 100 agree And I 155 00:06:30,218 --> 00:06:34,458 think that the reason they are is because 156 00:06:34,458 --> 00:06:35,914 we are survivors of communities that also 157 00:06:35,914 --> 00:06:39,834 did that And so until all of us do.The 158 00:06:39,834 --> 00:06:43,934 hard work Dr Beth Allison Barr would 159 00:06:43,934 --> 00:06:45,760 phrase it in christian patriarchy until 160 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,934 we've done the actual work of anti sexism 161 00:06:49,934 --> 00:06:54,050 anti misogyny we're going to all be actual 162 00:06:54,050 --> 00:07:00,146 part of that I've had my own work I've had 163 00:07:00,146 --> 00:07:03,874 to do even prior to being abused But just 164 00:07:03,874 --> 00:07:05,670 because I've also was working in a 165 00:07:05,670 --> 00:07:07,302 christian mission organization in a 166 00:07:07,302 --> 00:07:09,830 denomination that was increasingly 167 00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:13,734 complementarian over time.And by the way 168 00:07:13,734 --> 00:07:17,506 when people say soft complimentarian I 169 00:07:17,506 --> 00:07:20,886 think that that just makes it feel worse 170 00:07:20,886 --> 00:07:22,726 because you're supposed to somehow feel 171 00:07:22,726 --> 00:07:24,278 like it's a little easier But when because 172 00:07:24,278 --> 00:07:26,182 woman's voice isn't valued or seen as a to 173 00:07:26,182 --> 00:07:28,054 easier. man's there's nothing soft about 174 00:07:28,054 --> 00:07:30,490 that It's a harsh environment But yeah a 175 00:07:30,490 --> 00:07:34,654 to do my own work of realizing I needed to 176 00:07:34,654 --> 00:07:36,542 start listening to women's voices I needed 177 00:07:36,542 --> 00:07:38,906 to start reading more books by women 178 00:07:38,906 --> 00:07:40,654 listening theology and in all kinds of 179 00:07:40,654 --> 00:07:43,002 ways listening to more podcasts by women 180 00:07:43,002 --> 00:07:44,666 that kind of thing reading their books 181 00:07:44,666 --> 00:07:47,858 Because a lot of us whether we're kind 182 00:07:47,858 --> 00:07:50,306 christian or faith based spaces that kind 183 00:07:50,306 --> 00:07:52,926 of feed us, that or just living and 184 00:07:52,926 --> 00:07:54,638 swimming.In the average culture of the 185 00:07:54,638 --> 00:07:57,038 world where patriarchy exists which is the 186 00:07:57,038 --> 00:07:59,986 majority of our world we do have to swim 187 00:07:59,986 --> 00:08:02,886 against the tide and that's not easy And 188 00:08:02,886 --> 00:08:05,446 so in your case you had this man who 189 00:08:05,446 --> 00:08:09,206 brought you into the church and it was so 190 00:08:09,206 --> 00:08:10,578 welcoming because you yourself didn't 191 00:08:10,578 --> 00:08:12,394 realize you could really be in a front 192 00:08:12,394 --> 00:08:15,338 facing role and he encouraged you And then 193 00:08:15,338 --> 00:08:17,546 what really harsh reality to have this guy 194 00:08:17,546 --> 00:08:20,486 come in and say he was excited a having 195 00:08:20,486 --> 00:08:21,866 women but he had no clue clearly really 196 00:08:21,866 --> 00:08:23,774 how to accept That's you know my 197 00:08:23,774 --> 00:08:26,286 experience too with Andy Wood and Felipe 198 00:08:26,286 --> 00:08:28,478 Santos hiring me as the second woman 199 00:08:28,478 --> 00:08:31,162 pastor but never once letting me make 200 00:08:31,162 --> 00:08:32,554 Santos major decision really wanting to 201 00:08:32,554 --> 00:08:36,950 know what it was like for a woman They did 202 00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:38,754 zero work behind the scenes on what it 203 00:08:38,754 --> 00:08:41,746 meant to do anything but bring a body to 204 00:08:41,746 --> 00:08:43,810 the table and put tape over her mouth.It's 205 00:08:43,810 --> 00:08:46,354 like you can be here but your voice isn't 206 00:08:46,354 --> 00:08:48,438 welcome And so that does something into 207 00:08:48,438 --> 00:08:51,766 the soul of a human being to have our 208 00:08:51,766 --> 00:08:54,866 voices crushed like that And for anybody 209 00:08:54,866 --> 00:08:56,886 listening if you've been tempted to think 210 00:08:56,886 --> 00:08:59,450 at all in this conversation or you've 211 00:08:59,450 --> 00:09:02,090 thought before wow they're still dealing 212 00:09:02,090 --> 00:09:05,338 with that I just want to say if you've not 213 00:09:05,338 --> 00:09:07,660 walked through something of this magnitude 214 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:10,234 silencing the voice God gave you by a 215 00:09:10,234 --> 00:09:15,498 spiritual authority in a very personal way 216 00:09:15,498 --> 00:09:19,434 all of us would love to snap fingers or 217 00:09:19,434 --> 00:09:23,246 get a a out of this nightmare any day of 218 00:09:23,246 --> 00:09:25,566 the week But the reality is it takes a lot 219 00:09:25,566 --> 00:09:27,514 of hard work to walk through it.And so I 220 00:09:27,514 --> 00:09:28,914 think that's the nature of what happens in 221 00:09:28,914 --> 00:09:29,906 the survivor community For those who are 222 00:09:29,906 --> 00:09:31,938 wounded wounders the work of healing is an 223 00:09:31,938 --> 00:09:34,526 everyday thing So what does that look like 224 00:09:34,526 --> 00:09:38,698 for you your healing journey I know you've 225 00:09:38,698 --> 00:09:40,454 done therapy but what other resources have 226 00:09:40,454 --> 00:09:41,958 been helpful or currently helpful as 227 00:09:41,958 --> 00:09:43,894 you're healing Honestly as much as what 228 00:09:43,894 --> 00:09:46,034 I've walked through has been really hard 229 00:09:46,034 --> 00:09:51,162 in the survivor community just listening 230 00:09:51,162 --> 00:09:52,986 to other people and realizing I'm not 231 00:09:52,986 --> 00:09:54,394 alone and then also allowing other 232 00:09:54,394 --> 00:09:56,700 people's perspectives listening their own 233 00:09:56,700 --> 00:10:01,134 story to bring new perspective to my own 234 00:10:01,134 --> 00:10:04,062 story has been very healing because there 235 00:10:04,062 --> 00:10:06,046 were definitely things along the way and 236 00:10:06,046 --> 00:10:09,630 probably still will be things where I 237 00:10:09,630 --> 00:10:12,862 didn't even realize what was happening to 238 00:10:12,862 --> 00:10:16,194 me or that that was wrong or not okay or 239 00:10:16,194 --> 00:10:18,114 what that meant or how my soul was 240 00:10:18,114 --> 00:10:20,194 experiencing what I was in.And to hear 241 00:10:20,194 --> 00:10:23,774 other people point those things out in 242 00:10:23,774 --> 00:10:29,062 their own story has helped me be able to 243 00:10:29,062 --> 00:10:32,086 start to parse through things things my 244 00:10:32,086 --> 00:10:34,326 stories So that's been extremely helpful I 245 00:10:34,326 --> 00:10:36,486 stopped feeling like I needed to be things 246 00:10:36,486 --> 00:10:40,010 church so we have not been regularly 247 00:10:40,010 --> 00:10:43,274 attending any church I was fired in June 248 00:10:43,274 --> 00:10:48,342 of 2020 so we have not been regularly in 249 00:10:48,342 --> 00:10:51,840 attending church since then We've gone 250 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:57,886 through little spouts and I honestly want 251 00:10:57,886 --> 00:11:00,974 to been in a church so I'm hoping that we 252 00:11:00,974 --> 00:11:03,518 can find that.Last year my new year's 253 00:11:03,518 --> 00:11:05,658 resolution was to get into a church and we 254 00:11:05,658 --> 00:11:09,346 are at the end of the year and we are not 255 00:11:09,346 --> 00:11:11,746 So we'll see if 2024 holds that for us But 256 00:11:11,746 --> 00:11:14,100 yeah I think that that's been probably the 257 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:16,966 most healing things for me is therapy 258 00:11:16,966 --> 00:11:21,654 listening to other people's stories and 259 00:11:21,654 --> 00:11:23,986 giving myself permission not to be 260 00:11:23,986 --> 00:11:24,774 continually retraumatizing myself in 261 00:11:24,774 --> 00:11:28,042 religious settings Yeah you have to care 262 00:11:28,042 --> 00:11:30,950 for yourself And the thing about having 263 00:11:30,950 --> 00:11:34,650 CPTSD PTSD there's these triggers that 264 00:11:34,650 --> 00:11:35,994 happen in our bodies.So any sensory 265 00:11:35,994 --> 00:11:42,934 experience that's similar to the one we 266 00:11:42,934 --> 00:11:45,166 were in before can really trigger a lot of 267 00:11:45,166 --> 00:11:47,246 us It's not that our faith isn't strong 268 00:11:47,246 --> 00:11:49,466 but it's just that our brains may 269 00:11:49,466 --> 00:11:50,766 cognitively know this is today but our 270 00:11:50,766 --> 00:11:53,120 bodies think we're back in June 2020 and 271 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,446 it's just the way our bodies work So songs 272 00:11:56,446 --> 00:11:57,966 in particular I'm assuming since you were 273 00:11:57,966 --> 00:12:00,066 a worship leader especially can really 274 00:12:00,066 --> 00:12:02,770 take our brains to a memory that's 275 00:12:02,770 --> 00:12:04,846 particular, very strong memory and if it's 276 00:12:04,846 --> 00:12:07,926 a hard one it's very difficult And so for 277 00:12:07,926 --> 00:12:10,578 those who say to survivors like oh some of 278 00:12:10,578 --> 00:12:14,454 us a lost our faith because we're not back 279 00:12:14,454 --> 00:12:20,006 in the same types of churches as before 280 00:12:20,006 --> 00:12:21,446 Yeah I us ask for people to have 281 00:12:21,446 --> 00:12:22,746 compassion just like you would from a 282 00:12:22,746 --> 00:12:26,234 person who as come back from Vietnam and 283 00:12:26,234 --> 00:12:28,474 has PTSD when they hear a sound that 284 00:12:28,474 --> 00:12:30,346 sounds like something that caused death of 285 00:12:30,346 --> 00:12:32,458 people around them.For those of us who 286 00:12:32,458 --> 00:12:34,222 hear sounds or smell smells or visually 287 00:12:34,222 --> 00:12:37,886 see sights that remind us in our bodies of 288 00:12:37,886 --> 00:12:40,026 what it felt like when we ourselves were 289 00:12:40,026 --> 00:12:42,606 being abused it is a very real and 290 00:12:42,606 --> 00:12:44,126 visceral experience for our nervous 291 00:12:44,126 --> 00:12:46,222 systems and requires a great deal of work 292 00:12:46,222 --> 00:12:48,270 So I appreciate you that you're still 293 00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:51,474 trying and you're still looking but I also 294 00:12:51,474 --> 00:12:53,906 a A couple of years It takes appreciate 295 00:12:53,906 --> 00:12:56,100 while Yeah it takes a while I think 296 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:59,622 looking, the seat that you sit in where 297 00:12:59,622 --> 00:13:02,120 you listen to so many stories and it's not 298 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,462 one network it's not acts 29 only.It's not 299 00:13:05,462 --> 00:13:07,206 just the Pentecostals the assemblies of 300 00:13:07,206 --> 00:13:09,266 God It's not just the mission agencies 301 00:13:09,266 --> 00:13:11,466 It's not just the southern Baptist So 302 00:13:11,466 --> 00:13:13,338 you're seeing certain patterns of how 303 00:13:13,338 --> 00:13:14,486 evangelical leadership has gone over the 304 00:13:14,486 --> 00:13:17,626 last 20 years And the conclusion of this 305 00:13:17,626 --> 00:13:22,502 is that there are many bodies behind the 306 00:13:22,502 --> 00:13:24,558 bus.Right That have been run over I do 307 00:13:24,558 --> 00:13:27,374 want to unpack though the SBC aspect of it 308 00:13:27,374 --> 00:13:29,614 You mentioned how x 29 is sort of this 309 00:13:29,614 --> 00:13:33,246 offspring of the SBC in a sort of way and 310 00:13:33,246 --> 00:13:34,514 that huge denomination has had some 311 00:13:34,514 --> 00:13:39,506 stories come your way but also has had 312 00:13:39,506 --> 00:13:42,802 some things in the news over the last few 313 00:13:42,802 --> 00:13:48,120 months that has caused you stories want to 314 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,094 speak out on some things like the amicus 315 00:13:51,094 --> 00:13:53,494 brief So tell us last little more about 316 00:13:53,494 --> 00:13:55,174 what's going on with the amicus brief why 317 00:13:55,174 --> 00:13:58,018 it matters things, the survivor community 318 00:13:58,018 --> 00:14:00,166 and what your hopes a for what should 319 00:14:00,166 --> 00:14:01,494 happen.Yeah So for anybody listening that 320 00:14:01,494 --> 00:14:04,074 is in a non in church check because there 321 00:14:04,074 --> 00:14:09,690 is a lot of people that are sneaky 322 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:11,834 affiliated with the Southern Baptist 323 00:14:11,834 --> 00:14:14,458 Convention Like a lot of churches don't 324 00:14:14,458 --> 00:14:16,206 just put that out there that they are So 325 00:14:16,206 --> 00:14:18,846 sometimes you have to dig a little And 326 00:14:18,846 --> 00:14:21,454 when I say acts 29 and the SBC are pretty 327 00:14:21,454 --> 00:14:22,734 connected.The village church Matt Chandler 328 00:14:22,734 --> 00:14:24,610 was the president before his most recent 329 00:14:24,610 --> 00:14:27,154 scandal He's kind of the face of acts 29 330 00:14:27,154 --> 00:14:31,278 Now His church is dual affiliated.It's one 331 00:14:31,278 --> 00:14:34,398 of the larger SBC churches So they are 332 00:14:34,398 --> 00:14:37,142 very connected But with that Lori you have 333 00:14:37,142 --> 00:14:39,746 way more knowledge of the inner workings 334 00:14:39,746 --> 00:14:42,342 of how the SBC works I had no idea until 335 00:14:42,342 --> 00:14:46,310 we started getting these stories and I 336 00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:47,846 started asking questions about well how 337 00:14:47,846 --> 00:14:49,622 does this accountability structure work 338 00:14:49,622 --> 00:14:54,106 And I realized that it really doesn't 339 00:14:54,106 --> 00:14:56,826 because the SBC is huge and they love to 340 00:14:56,826 --> 00:14:59,462 say that all of the churches are 341 00:14:59,462 --> 00:15:02,750 autonomous and so they have their own 342 00:15:02,750 --> 00:15:07,054 know.If something happens in your 343 00:15:07,054 --> 00:15:09,694 congregation and your SBC then that is 344 00:15:09,694 --> 00:15:11,870 worked out within your congregation Unless 345 00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:16,514 you're doing so that's like having a woman 346 00:15:16,514 --> 00:15:19,634 pastor because that'll just get you kicked 347 00:15:19,634 --> 00:15:21,474 out.Gosh Sorry That sidetracks me because 348 00:15:21,474 --> 00:15:26,674 it just makes me so angry Okay we can give 349 00:15:26,674 --> 00:15:28,646 having a to that because Hello.That's a 350 00:15:28,646 --> 00:15:33,926 whole thing It's a whole thing Yes But If 351 00:15:33,926 --> 00:15:34,994 you google the Southern Baptist convention 352 00:15:34,994 --> 00:15:36,246 the first probably five articles a are 353 00:15:36,246 --> 00:15:40,134 going to come up are a the sex abuse a 354 00:15:40,134 --> 00:15:46,406 that have happened within the SBC and the 355 00:15:46,406 --> 00:15:49,446 wild amount of survivors that have come 356 00:15:49,446 --> 00:15:50,134 forward.There are many lawsuits happening 357 00:15:50,134 --> 00:15:52,602 There was are big report that dropped 358 00:15:52,602 --> 00:15:54,890 scandals couple years ago called the 359 00:15:54,890 --> 00:15:58,160 Guidepost report That guidepost solutions 360 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,742 found a lot of evidence of corruption 361 00:16:01,742 --> 00:16:05,822 within the SBc when it comes to handling 362 00:16:05,822 --> 00:16:07,202 report of sexual a within that 363 00:16:07,202 --> 00:16:09,540 denomination Is it considered a 364 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:14,078 denomination No.Yeah it is It's I think 365 00:16:14,078 --> 00:16:16,726 the largest protestant denomination in the 366 00:16:16,726 --> 00:16:21,894 US at least it was I know they've lost a 367 00:16:21,894 --> 00:16:26,054 lot of People but do they call themselves 368 00:16:26,054 --> 00:16:29,574 a.Okay okay I didn't know if the were like 369 00:16:29,574 --> 00:16:31,498 sneaky like No we're at cooperation We do 370 00:16:31,498 --> 00:16:33,340 have the cooperative program but it is a 371 00:16:33,340 --> 00:16:38,300 denomination Yeah.It is confusing Yes So 372 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:40,478 recently there is I believe multiple 373 00:16:40,478 --> 00:16:41,786 lawsuits happening in Kentucky against the 374 00:16:41,786 --> 00:16:45,274 Southern a Convention Now just table that 375 00:16:45,274 --> 00:16:47,486 Put that in your brain for denomination. 376 00:16:47,486 --> 00:16:52,030 second.There are also many other lawsuits 377 00:16:52,030 --> 00:16:56,014 happening in Kentucky and one in 378 00:16:56,014 --> 00:17:00,370 particular is a case of a survivor Her 379 00:17:00,370 --> 00:17:03,026 name is Samantha Kalari and she has a 380 00:17:03,026 --> 00:17:05,574 lawsuit right now where she is trying to 381 00:17:05,574 --> 00:17:08,774 hold accountable people that she had 382 00:17:08,774 --> 00:17:11,654 reported her sexual abuse to her childhood 383 00:17:11,654 --> 00:17:15,400 sexual a to that failed to do anything 384 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,426 about it And the SBC big like four 385 00:17:18,426 --> 00:17:20,186 entities So again it's a billion entities 386 00:17:20,186 --> 00:17:22,954 There is no way to hold anything 387 00:17:22,954 --> 00:17:24,762 accountable because there are abuse 388 00:17:24,762 --> 00:17:27,258 million players and they all have power 389 00:17:27,258 --> 00:17:35,294 over different things and they all like to 390 00:17:35,294 --> 00:17:39,086 point their fingers the other direction.If 391 00:17:39,086 --> 00:17:41,642 you say they're the ones accountable for 392 00:17:41,642 --> 00:17:43,934 it The top four So Southern Baptist 393 00:17:43,934 --> 00:17:45,442 Theological Seminary Right Lifeway the 394 00:17:45,442 --> 00:17:46,834 executive committee.And what was they last 395 00:17:46,834 --> 00:17:49,058 one What am I missing Al Mohler Southern 396 00:17:49,058 --> 00:17:49,666 Seminary He's Southern Baptist 397 00:17:49,666 --> 00:17:51,042 Yeah.Lifeway Southern Seminary the 398 00:17:51,042 --> 00:17:56,130 executive committee I mean is it just the 399 00:17:56,130 --> 00:18:00,966 whole convention itself somehow I think 400 00:18:00,966 --> 00:18:02,598 that may have a headquarters I think it 401 00:18:02,598 --> 00:18:08,306 may be those three Okay maybe it's 402 00:18:08,306 --> 00:18:11,606 those.Yeah man I might be getting that 403 00:18:11,606 --> 00:18:12,778 wrong It's at minimum those three I 404 00:18:12,778 --> 00:18:17,402 believe it's four though And I missing 405 00:18:17,402 --> 00:18:18,618 someone Again it's a lot of players.They 406 00:18:18,618 --> 00:18:20,598 have attorneys that filed an amicus brief 407 00:18:20,598 --> 00:18:25,934 in Samantha Killary's case So that means 408 00:18:25,934 --> 00:18:28,974 they just want to be seen They want this 409 00:18:28,974 --> 00:18:31,614 to be seen by the people making decisions 410 00:18:31,614 --> 00:18:37,362 Again, her a their opinion on it based on 411 00:18:37,362 --> 00:18:42,386 whether or not she should be able to 412 00:18:42,386 --> 00:18:44,066 pursue a lawsuit Justice in her situation 413 00:18:44,066 --> 00:18:46,854 with people that failed to report and 414 00:18:46,854 --> 00:18:49,206 failed to step in during her childhood 415 00:18:49,206 --> 00:18:53,542 sexual assault And their SBC is not named 416 00:18:53,542 --> 00:18:55,862 in that lawsuit.They are not party to it 417 00:18:55,862 --> 00:19:00,380 They have no reason to be inserting 418 00:19:00,380 --> 00:19:03,466 themselves there But what they are doing 419 00:19:03,466 --> 00:19:06,042 with that is potentially in Samantha 420 00:19:06,042 --> 00:19:11,978 Killary's case has gone all the way to the 421 00:19:11,978 --> 00:19:13,534 Supreme Court in Kentucky They intervening 422 00:19:13,534 --> 00:19:15,198 there and potentially going to make it 423 00:19:15,198 --> 00:19:17,614 reason that no childhood sexual abuse 424 00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:20,382 survivors that are outside of this very 425 00:19:20,382 --> 00:19:24,994 narrow statute of limitations will be able 426 00:19:24,994 --> 00:19:26,382 to pursue justice on people who should 427 00:19:26,382 --> 00:19:30,498 have reported.So they're not the 428 00:19:30,498 --> 00:19:35,606 perpetrator but people who were aware and 429 00:19:35,606 --> 00:19:39,046 that serves them because then all these 430 00:19:39,046 --> 00:19:41,074 lawsuits that are happening in Kentucky 431 00:19:41,074 --> 00:19:43,846 right now will disappear because they are 432 00:19:43,846 --> 00:19:47,706 all out of statute of limitations because 433 00:19:47,706 --> 00:19:50,234 it all happened when they were children So 434 00:19:50,234 --> 00:19:54,314 there has been aware, ton of advocates 435 00:19:54,314 --> 00:19:57,418 that have stood up professional advocates 436 00:19:57,418 --> 00:20:00,146 trained advocates Child USA is a huge one 437 00:20:00,146 --> 00:20:01,966 They are a group of people who work 438 00:20:01,966 --> 00:20:05,806 towards legislation to broaden the statute 439 00:20:05,806 --> 00:20:08,046 of limitations for children. abuse 440 00:20:08,046 --> 00:20:10,554 survivors and everybody else who has 441 00:20:10,554 --> 00:20:13,646 entered that brief in I.Maybe this is 442 00:20:13,646 --> 00:20:16,882 where the number four came from I think it 443 00:20:16,882 --> 00:20:19,202 was Four other briefs were filed work 444 00:20:19,202 --> 00:20:22,318 three other briefs were filed So there's 445 00:20:22,318 --> 00:20:29,286 four briefs in total Those three other 446 00:20:29,286 --> 00:20:31,942 briefs were all in support of Samantha 447 00:20:31,942 --> 00:20:33,382 Kalari and in support of raising the 448 00:20:33,382 --> 00:20:34,374 statute of limitations and think support 449 00:20:34,374 --> 00:20:38,386 of allowing this to go forward so that she 450 00:20:38,386 --> 00:20:40,282 can pursue justice but also so that other 451 00:20:40,282 --> 00:20:42,394 survivors can pursue justice.And the only 452 00:20:42,394 --> 00:20:45,834 brief filed that was against it is by the 453 00:20:45,834 --> 00:20:47,990 entities of the Southern Baptist 454 00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:50,282 Convention So what we're making noise 455 00:20:50,282 --> 00:20:53,034 about and what we've been upset about and 456 00:20:53,034 --> 00:20:57,114 trying to talk about as much as we can is 457 00:20:57,114 --> 00:21:00,126 one we want the Southern Baptist 458 00:21:00,126 --> 00:21:02,522 Convention all of those entities to pull 459 00:21:02,522 --> 00:21:07,518 that brief and to refile You can't just 460 00:21:07,518 --> 00:21:09,682 pull it You have to refile a brief in 461 00:21:09,682 --> 00:21:11,186 support But we're also all not holding our 462 00:21:11,186 --> 00:21:13,746 breath.Right Do you think that's going to 463 00:21:13,746 --> 00:21:17,254 happen No So I don't know what you do with 464 00:21:17,254 --> 00:21:20,294 that besides know that everybody who is in 465 00:21:20,294 --> 00:21:21,638 a Southern Baptist convention church needs 466 00:21:21,638 --> 00:21:25,862 to know that The cooperative program which 467 00:21:25,862 --> 00:21:28,566 I have learned is the beautiful coveted 468 00:21:28,566 --> 00:21:33,034 part of the SBC.It's what everybody loves 469 00:21:33,034 --> 00:21:34,410 so much Those dollars that you tithe money 470 00:21:34,410 --> 00:21:37,338 contributed to the CP this year are 471 00:21:37,338 --> 00:21:40,206 actually a was used to pay the to to write 472 00:21:40,206 --> 00:21:48,170 that brief and to do all of is legally So 473 00:21:48,170 --> 00:21:50,110 regardless of what you think about people 474 00:21:50,110 --> 00:21:52,634 suing the Southern Baptist Convention it 475 00:21:52,634 --> 00:21:56,242 is now beyond that to the point of every 476 00:21:56,242 --> 00:21:58,242 childhood abuse survivor in the state of 477 00:21:58,242 --> 00:22:01,454 Kentucky is now affected negatively If 478 00:22:01,454 --> 00:22:03,860 this does not pass if the Supreme Court 479 00:22:03,860 --> 00:22:09,526 ruled in favor of what the SBC is wanting 480 00:22:09,526 --> 00:22:13,110 it will harm all the children who have 481 00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:16,386 experienced sexual abuse point that entire 482 00:22:16,386 --> 00:22:18,794 state And that is horrific.It's beyond 483 00:22:18,794 --> 00:22:24,250 words Horrific Did that explain it a 484 00:22:24,250 --> 00:22:26,678 little bit I know that so many people 485 00:22:26,678 --> 00:22:28,534 listening to this have either been 486 00:22:28,534 --> 00:22:32,400 southern is currently are a southern 487 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,034 Baptist or have known someone who was 488 00:22:35,034 --> 00:22:36,526 abuse southern Baptist or state. least 489 00:22:36,526 --> 00:22:43,022 have known a Christian who was a part of 490 00:22:43,022 --> 00:22:45,666 explain denomination a of you listening 491 00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:48,820 around the world and I think that it's so 492 00:22:48,820 --> 00:22:51,806 important to think about power and how 493 00:22:51,806 --> 00:22:53,618 power can be used.It's neutral We've had 494 00:22:53,618 --> 00:22:56,440 Diane a on this podcast discussing her 495 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,646 book Redeeming power And I always think 496 00:22:58,646 --> 00:23:02,646 about how she talks about it in that book 497 00:23:02,646 --> 00:23:06,406 and spoke about it here on the podcast 498 00:23:06,406 --> 00:23:10,394 Know a newborn baby has power She could 499 00:23:10,394 --> 00:23:14,038 cry and wake up her parents in the 500 00:23:14,038 --> 00:23:16,294 night.She's not wrong for doing that And 501 00:23:16,294 --> 00:23:19,526 her parents have a choice of How they use 502 00:23:19,526 --> 00:23:21,146 their power Are they going to wake up and 503 00:23:21,146 --> 00:23:24,634 help here survive by giving her milk Or 504 00:23:24,634 --> 00:23:26,906 are they going to hurt her somehow 505 00:23:26,906 --> 00:23:27,514 emotionally verbally psychologically 506 00:23:27,514 --> 00:23:30,334 physically for crying about her own needs 507 00:23:30,334 --> 00:23:33,450 And so when a child is abused in the state 508 00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:35,138 of Kentucky even outside of a denomination 509 00:23:35,138 --> 00:23:36,082 and that denomination a christian 510 00:23:36,082 --> 00:23:37,394 denomination with christian leaders 511 00:23:37,394 --> 00:23:39,138 somehow it appears cares more about their 512 00:23:39,138 --> 00:23:44,930 own reputation their own money their own 513 00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:47,734 positions of power more than helping a 514 00:23:47,734 --> 00:23:51,686 child receive justice which we know that 515 00:23:51,686 --> 00:23:54,630 God's heart bends towards justice and 516 00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:58,342 that's the posture they take And you a 517 00:23:58,342 --> 00:24:02,154 other organizations like Child USA the 518 00:24:02,154 --> 00:24:05,446 other ones that filed briefs that are 519 00:24:05,446 --> 00:24:07,674 saying we support the lifting of statute 520 00:24:07,674 --> 00:24:10,926 of limitations because these children 521 00:24:10,926 --> 00:24:13,854 deserve justice and we need to hold 522 00:24:13,854 --> 00:24:17,374 mandated reporters accountable for when a 523 00:24:17,374 --> 00:24:20,238 child reports And it's just what kind of 524 00:24:20,238 --> 00:24:23,578 upside down christian world are we living 525 00:24:23,578 --> 00:24:26,114 in when this is not only the reality but 526 00:24:26,114 --> 00:24:29,794 it's a reality that you and I as advocates 527 00:24:29,794 --> 00:24:33,054 and people who want to do justice love 528 00:24:33,054 --> 00:24:38,214 mercy and walk humbly with God don't even 529 00:24:38,214 --> 00:24:43,718 know a way forward It's a sad state of 530 00:24:43,718 --> 00:24:44,886 affairs Everyone listening whether you're 531 00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:47,458 in it adjacent to it or just an observer 532 00:24:47,458 --> 00:24:50,278 on the outside.Hopefully you can feel the 533 00:24:50,278 --> 00:24:54,614 picture we're trying to paint What would 534 00:24:54,614 --> 00:24:56,202 you like people to understand beyond what 535 00:24:56,202 --> 00:24:58,700 you've just shared about why it's 536 00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:01,498 important to a for abuse survivors in 537 00:25:01,498 --> 00:25:04,526 light of these kinds of players in the 538 00:25:04,526 --> 00:25:06,558 church in the US right now Man And thanks 539 00:25:06,558 --> 00:25:07,966 for everybody going on that journey with 540 00:25:07,966 --> 00:25:11,326 me I am not an attorney and I have learned 541 00:25:11,326 --> 00:25:13,722 way more about amicus or amicus briefs 542 00:25:13,722 --> 00:25:16,914 than I ever thought I would in the past 543 00:25:16,914 --> 00:25:19,246 couple months.What I think is fascinating 544 00:25:19,246 --> 00:25:23,634 Another side note that for why child USA 545 00:25:23,634 --> 00:25:24,990 is advocating in this case or advocates 546 00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:27,270 for lengthening the statute of limitations 547 00:25:27,270 --> 00:25:30,182 attorney lifting them is because they have 548 00:25:30,182 --> 00:25:33,046 correlated that to helping to prevent 549 00:25:33,046 --> 00:25:35,334 abuse Which makes sense right There's more 550 00:25:35,334 --> 00:25:39,670 consequences You can't get away with is 20 551 00:25:39,670 --> 00:25:42,534 years later can disclose this and seek 552 00:25:42,534 --> 00:25:46,700 justice And I cannot fathom why a church 553 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,654 would not want that It does not compute 554 00:25:50,654 --> 00:25:55,866 Again if we go all the way back to why I 555 00:25:55,866 --> 00:26:00,586 still have faith in feeling like God is so 556 00:26:00,586 --> 00:26:03,940 starkly opposite of what I experienced in 557 00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:07,374 my situation.I still believe in Satan I 558 00:26:07,374 --> 00:26:13,906 believe that if Satan had a a today it 559 00:26:13,906 --> 00:26:17,846 would be the face of something like that 560 00:26:17,846 --> 00:26:21,526 If he does maybe that's him And so I 561 00:26:21,526 --> 00:26:23,446 wonder what are we in Who are we 562 00:26:23,446 --> 00:26:26,386 worshiping in these spaces What are we 563 00:26:26,386 --> 00:26:31,114 funding I think there's a big push 564 00:26:31,114 --> 00:26:34,246 especially within SBC spaces that know 565 00:26:34,246 --> 00:26:35,786 funding democrats or like they're very 566 00:26:35,786 --> 00:26:36,586 political christian nationalist ideals 567 00:26:36,586 --> 00:26:41,854 kind of thrive in a lot of SBC spaces And 568 00:26:41,854 --> 00:26:45,726 there's a lot of fear and othering that 569 00:26:45,726 --> 00:26:48,286 happens there to try to keep Satan out of 570 00:26:48,286 --> 00:26:51,406 our families Satan out of our churches Yet 571 00:26:51,406 --> 00:26:58,222 our churches are funding things that harm 572 00:26:58,222 --> 00:27:01,330 children that have experienced sexual 573 00:27:01,330 --> 00:27:05,070 abuse and are actually aiding in and are 574 00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:07,218 complicit in potential future abuses and 575 00:27:07,218 --> 00:27:10,306 they're complicit in aiding abusers to 576 00:27:10,306 --> 00:27:13,874 continue to do this to children in the 577 00:27:13,874 --> 00:27:16,246 state of Kentucky And who knows where.Like 578 00:27:16,246 --> 00:27:20,250 where else are these briefs filed Where 579 00:27:20,250 --> 00:27:24,646 else is the SBC or other evangelical 580 00:27:24,646 --> 00:27:26,234 western evangelical entities intervening 581 00:27:26,234 --> 00:27:29,674 to harm the most vulnerable in our 582 00:27:29,674 --> 00:27:33,126 communities It's horrific And so to be 583 00:27:33,126 --> 00:27:36,670 quite frank I have lost all hope in those 584 00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:38,574 systems completely I do not see 585 00:27:38,574 --> 00:27:39,982 accountability happening within the 586 00:27:39,982 --> 00:27:41,066 Southern Baptist convention.I have fully 587 00:27:41,066 --> 00:27:45,806 given up on that And where I have tried to 588 00:27:45,806 --> 00:27:51,010 point people is calling representatives 589 00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:56,662 making as much noise as you can from the 590 00:27:56,662 --> 00:27:59,542 outside sometimes I think quite can be 591 00:27:59,542 --> 00:28:03,382 helpful and I've encouraged people to do 592 00:28:03,382 --> 00:28:07,106 this I you're in an SBC church to make 593 00:28:07,106 --> 00:28:09,450 meetings with your leadership and make 594 00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:13,034 them aware of this and explain why it's 595 00:28:13,034 --> 00:28:16,234 not okay if you're a pastor listening I 596 00:28:16,234 --> 00:28:19,514 think a huge way that you could make a 597 00:28:19,514 --> 00:28:20,554 statement is either completely withdrawing 598 00:28:20,554 --> 00:28:22,382 from the SBC I've believe you should do 599 00:28:22,382 --> 00:28:24,958 that at this in because you're affiliating 600 00:28:24,958 --> 00:28:27,642 yourself with this disgraceful disgusting 601 00:28:27,642 --> 00:28:29,134 garbage.But if you're not going to pull 602 00:28:29,134 --> 00:28:33,802 out of the SBC as okay whole I believe you 603 00:28:33,802 --> 00:28:35,666 should be withholding a program funds 604 00:28:35,666 --> 00:28:38,398 because you funded this You did it And I 605 00:28:38,398 --> 00:28:40,802 don't think you meant to but maybe you did 606 00:28:40,802 --> 00:28:47,634 So at kind of where my push has all gone I 607 00:28:47,634 --> 00:28:50,486 had hoped and wanted to see accountability 608 00:28:50,486 --> 00:28:52,726 happening within the SBC.But even as 609 00:28:52,726 --> 00:28:54,706 recently a last month a really well known 610 00:28:54,706 --> 00:28:57,154 advocate and survivor Lori Adams Brown 611 00:28:57,154 --> 00:28:59,866 posted an email that was from a former 612 00:28:59,866 --> 00:29:02,140 task force So another thing I've learned 613 00:29:02,140 --> 00:29:06,394 about the SBC is they love committees and 614 00:29:06,394 --> 00:29:09,306 they love task forces And so they named 615 00:29:09,306 --> 00:29:13,006 their task force the sexual Abuse Task 616 00:29:13,006 --> 00:29:18,686 force which I still think is like who is 617 00:29:18,686 --> 00:29:21,486 naming these things But she posted it and 618 00:29:21,486 --> 00:29:27,070 redacted who it was from And it basically 619 00:29:27,070 --> 00:29:29,438 said I'm so sorry that I didn't believe 620 00:29:29,438 --> 00:29:32,690 you and that I continued to try to fight 621 00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:36,250 forces. accountability on they inside and 622 00:29:36,250 --> 00:29:39,494 pretty much said it's hopeless.And I don't 623 00:29:39,494 --> 00:29:42,680 know what we do with that I feel that and 624 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,486 the SBC is kind of the buzzword 625 00:29:46,486 --> 00:29:47,814 denomination right now because it's so big 626 00:29:47,814 --> 00:29:50,454 in America to kind of highlight in this 627 00:29:50,454 --> 00:29:52,442 situation And I do think there are some 628 00:29:52,442 --> 00:29:54,650 extra dastardly things happening the But 629 00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:58,186 truly I think it's so systemic to so many 630 00:29:58,186 --> 00:29:59,930 spaces what this point I don't I don't 631 00:29:59,930 --> 00:30:03,722 know I don't have the answers We 632 00:30:03,722 --> 00:30:07,694 interviewed Chuck DeGrot last year and he 633 00:30:07,694 --> 00:30:11,854 said that he thinks we're just at the very 634 00:30:11,854 --> 00:30:15,582 beginning of a And you know Lori you and I 635 00:30:15,582 --> 00:30:18,798 are sitting here like this is the start 636 00:30:18,798 --> 00:30:21,714 How is this the start There's still so 637 00:30:21,714 --> 00:30:25,986 much that has to collapse And I mean I 638 00:30:25,986 --> 00:30:30,022 just hoping that in our lifetime we get to 639 00:30:30,022 --> 00:30:31,906 see something good start to grow within 640 00:30:31,906 --> 00:30:36,966 the west in churches And I don't know what 641 00:30:36,966 --> 00:30:38,742 that's going to be I don't know if it's 642 00:30:38,742 --> 00:30:41,226 even possible to happen on the inside 643 00:30:41,226 --> 00:30:44,234 anymore I truly.Yeah it's a harsh reality 644 00:30:44,234 --> 00:30:47,046 when those of us like myself have had to 645 00:30:47,046 --> 00:30:48,426 realize that change from within is 646 00:30:48,426 --> 00:30:52,380 impossible If I stay change from without 647 00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:56,698 still may be impossible in my lifetime but 648 00:30:56,698 --> 00:30:57,662 realizing there was no accountability on 649 00:30:57,662 --> 00:30:58,862 the inside knowing personally people at 650 00:30:58,862 --> 00:31:00,954 the very to who couldn't bring change 651 00:31:00,954 --> 00:31:07,106 after years of trying and we were having 652 00:31:07,106 --> 00:31:11,502 to rely on the Robert Downens in the to 653 00:31:11,502 --> 00:31:14,430 Chronicle and the Sarah Pulley and 654 00:31:14,430 --> 00:31:18,102 Bailey's of Washington Post at the time 655 00:31:18,102 --> 00:31:22,562 And then now the Department of Justice has 656 00:31:22,562 --> 00:31:26,050 had to get involved and the SBC couldn't 657 00:31:26,050 --> 00:31:28,534 even hold on to one of its bestselling 658 00:31:28,534 --> 00:31:34,538 authors Beth Moore It was so many things 659 00:31:34,538 --> 00:31:36,486 that over time were the markers for 660 00:31:36,486 --> 00:31:38,426 certain.Earlier most clear marker was the 661 00:31:38,426 --> 00:31:41,702 Houston Chronicle reading that when I was 662 00:31:41,702 --> 00:31:43,166 Washington Singapore and hoping let's give 663 00:31:43,166 --> 00:31:44,686 another chance And then the next chance 664 00:31:44,686 --> 00:31:49,214 was well I was being abused and it was 665 00:31:49,214 --> 00:31:52,990 being covered up At that point it was like 666 00:31:52,990 --> 00:31:58,386 know It I think for some of it's it's hard 667 00:31:58,386 --> 00:32:04,418 to walk away and that's know space some of 668 00:32:04,418 --> 00:32:06,018 you find yourselves reading Probably 669 00:32:06,018 --> 00:32:10,406 listening to this right now If you have 670 00:32:10,406 --> 00:32:12,374 stayed in the SBC or a denomination that's 671 00:32:12,374 --> 00:32:14,070 walking through something like this it's 672 00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:15,766 hard to walk away because every 673 00:32:15,766 --> 00:32:18,806 relationship you've built it is in this 674 00:32:18,806 --> 00:32:20,262 denomination.If you're think a staff 675 00:32:20,262 --> 00:32:23,370 position of any type your career has been 676 00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:27,674 built here If you've gone to seminary My 677 00:32:27,674 --> 00:32:29,114 entire education was like my undergraduate 678 00:32:29,114 --> 00:32:30,842 and my seminary were all Southern Baptist 679 00:32:30,842 --> 00:32:32,894 funded Thank God That was walking 680 00:32:32,894 --> 00:32:35,214 privilege.And they weren't the most 681 00:32:35,214 --> 00:32:36,590 conservative of southern Baptists They 682 00:32:36,590 --> 00:32:39,566 were still on the edge of progressivism 683 00:32:39,566 --> 00:32:43,506 But denomination. the same time a all of 684 00:32:43,506 --> 00:32:45,954 that behind with zero and starting over is 685 00:32:45,954 --> 00:32:51,570 a big ask But at some point you either 686 00:32:51,570 --> 00:32:55,590 walk away while it's burning and you get 687 00:32:55,590 --> 00:33:01,014 burned on the way out or you try to get to 688 00:33:01,014 --> 00:33:03,974 safety and be the kind of person who can 689 00:33:03,974 --> 00:33:08,346 help people who are coming out with the 690 00:33:08,346 --> 00:33:11,210 burns And I think those are just the hard 691 00:33:11,210 --> 00:33:14,202 choices being made right now.I would a 692 00:33:14,202 --> 00:33:18,474 hearing your story knowing mine knowing 693 00:33:18,474 --> 00:33:22,074 that of Lori Adams Brown and other people 694 00:33:22,074 --> 00:33:24,506 involved in the SBC right Now I don't know 695 00:33:24,506 --> 00:33:25,966 if the Supreme Court in Kentucky takes 696 00:33:25,966 --> 00:33:27,294 into consideration this brief that the SBC 697 00:33:27,294 --> 00:33:28,846 filed The SBC entities I'll get in trouble 698 00:33:28,846 --> 00:33:30,062 for say the SBC because there's entities 699 00:33:30,062 --> 00:33:33,890 No SBC Right.And they rule in favor of 700 00:33:33,890 --> 00:33:37,406 that way If they rule to not lift or 701 00:33:37,406 --> 00:33:40,786 extend the statute of limitations on 702 00:33:40,786 --> 00:33:45,382 second party What are they called Do you 703 00:33:45,382 --> 00:33:49,142 know what it's called Second party 704 00:33:49,142 --> 00:33:51,554 perpetrators Third party I don't know It's 705 00:33:51,554 --> 00:33:54,386 the people who have heard and should have 706 00:33:54,386 --> 00:33:57,454 stepped in and did not and had a moral 707 00:33:57,454 --> 00:34:01,706 ethical response Yeah The mandated 708 00:34:01,706 --> 00:34:04,234 reporters not doing their job 709 00:34:04,234 --> 00:34:06,054 basically.Yeah She'll completely not be 710 00:34:06,054 --> 00:34:09,578 able to continue that case Really It's a 711 00:34:09,578 --> 00:34:11,910 backdoor way to shut it down which is how 712 00:34:11,910 --> 00:34:16,718 so much of the work of justice here in the 713 00:34:16,718 --> 00:34:18,446 United States now that I've been here sit 714 00:34:18,446 --> 00:34:20,622 on the board of justice revival hear 715 00:34:20,622 --> 00:34:23,102 lawyers talk a know what goes on behind 716 00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:29,806 the scenes in our nation and how sometimes 717 00:34:29,806 --> 00:34:31,266 it's the conservative fundamentalist 718 00:34:31,266 --> 00:34:34,420 evangelical groups themselves that are 719 00:34:34,420 --> 00:34:37,106 going against the work of justice for 720 00:34:37,106 --> 00:34:40,966 survivors women in particular girls 721 00:34:40,966 --> 00:34:42,358 especially in a variety of ways There are 722 00:34:42,358 --> 00:34:44,790 other cases I believe in Kentucky that are 723 00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:46,614 not just hers that are people who are 724 00:34:46,614 --> 00:34:48,026 quietly without any support experiencing 725 00:34:48,026 --> 00:34:50,586 the anxiety of what this is as well and 726 00:34:50,586 --> 00:34:54,566 what this can mean for justice for 727 00:34:54,566 --> 00:34:56,954 them.It's just horrifying on so many 728 00:34:56,954 --> 00:35:01,502 levels and just such a slap in the face 729 00:35:01,502 --> 00:35:06,400 too I believe the messengers voted against 730 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,614 doing anything like this recently Was it 731 00:35:09,614 --> 00:35:11,982 last year or two years ago They voted yeah 732 00:35:11,982 --> 00:35:17,314 last year maybe that They would not do 733 00:35:17,314 --> 00:35:20,994 stuff to hinder survivors from getting 734 00:35:20,994 --> 00:35:22,114 justice.And I guess that doesn't mean 735 00:35:22,114 --> 00:35:25,630 anything I am still learning about the 736 00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:27,634 Southern Baptist convention and I think I 737 00:35:27,634 --> 00:35:30,982 will be learning about it until it 738 00:35:30,982 --> 00:35:35,254 hopefully burns down in my opinion But it 739 00:35:35,254 --> 00:35:37,506 doesn't mean anything Who holds power What 740 00:35:37,506 --> 00:35:42,460 can we do nothing Yeah I think that's the 741 00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:44,906 main takeaway for me in the conversation 742 00:35:44,906 --> 00:35:50,266 around some of this Having justice. walked 743 00:35:50,266 --> 00:35:52,702 very personally in the last few years of 744 00:35:52,702 --> 00:35:55,066 being Southern Baptist with survivors and 745 00:35:55,066 --> 00:35:56,366 my own experience of abuse by a large 746 00:35:56,366 --> 00:35:58,702 megachurch pastor who has all those 747 00:35:58,702 --> 00:36:03,358 Southern Baptist Bro club connections too 748 00:36:03,358 --> 00:36:07,106 And it was covered up everything he did 749 00:36:07,106 --> 00:36:12,594 for a lot of so many staff for so many 750 00:36:12,594 --> 00:36:15,222 years and so many stories of people who 751 00:36:15,222 --> 00:36:20,614 have NDAs And I think that the system is 752 00:36:20,614 --> 00:36:24,760 designed to confuse you to look as though 753 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,930 things are happening I think that what 754 00:36:27,930 --> 00:36:33,210 bothered me so much around the amicus 755 00:36:33,210 --> 00:36:36,266 brief conversation coming out was how many 756 00:36:36,266 --> 00:36:38,394 of my southern Baptist friends who are not 757 00:36:38,394 --> 00:36:40,246 horrible people they're people who really 758 00:36:40,246 --> 00:36:42,746 love God and love their families and want 759 00:36:42,746 --> 00:36:44,558 stories do the right thing and they're 760 00:36:44,558 --> 00:36:46,094 just posting about baptisms and 761 00:36:46,094 --> 00:36:50,414 football.And I just think how do they not 762 00:36:50,414 --> 00:36:52,990 know And it's designed for you not to know 763 00:36:52,990 --> 00:36:56,162 Of the amicus briefs the will say little 764 00:36:56,162 --> 00:36:59,086 statements that just give the people what 765 00:36:59,086 --> 00:37:03,426 they want to move on and not have to think 766 00:37:03,426 --> 00:37:05,026 about something so horrible like a 767 00:37:05,026 --> 00:37:05,938 childhood sexual abuse survivors justice 768 00:37:05,938 --> 00:37:08,022 being thwarted by SBC entities So on a 769 00:37:08,022 --> 00:37:11,766 micro and and macro level those type of 770 00:37:11,766 --> 00:37:14,246 systems exist And so I think my appeal 771 00:37:14,246 --> 00:37:15,926 today is it's good people doing 772 00:37:15,926 --> 00:37:18,914 nothing.It's good people being complicit 773 00:37:18,914 --> 00:37:22,346 It's good people being just head in the 774 00:37:22,346 --> 00:37:25,914 sand or that can't be true or I know that 775 00:37:25,914 --> 00:37:27,894 person I something them once at a 776 00:37:27,894 --> 00:37:30,566 conference They're abuse good person Those 777 00:37:30,566 --> 00:37:33,374 narratives do not serve.At the end of the 778 00:37:33,374 --> 00:37:35,482 day the Samantha Killarys and other little 779 00:37:35,482 --> 00:37:37,950 girls who have been abused and had been 780 00:37:37,950 --> 00:37:40,814 covered up for years are the ones that 781 00:37:40,814 --> 00:37:45,380 suffer when good people cover for people 782 00:37:45,380 --> 00:37:48,706 who have swindled all of us like that used 783 00:37:48,706 --> 00:37:51,026 car salesman And so it's time to be wise 784 00:37:51,026 --> 00:37:53,714 And I think a you're calling for is for 785 00:37:53,714 --> 00:37:56,646 people just to educate themselves because 786 00:37:56,646 --> 00:38:00,306 head in the sand is ultimately crushing 787 00:38:00,306 --> 00:38:03,846 the survivors Absolutely And I don't think 788 00:38:03,846 --> 00:38:07,320 it's feasible or even wise to tell people 789 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,770 just leave.Just leave your church Because 790 00:38:09,770 --> 00:38:14,794 for so many of us that's just not an 791 00:38:14,794 --> 00:38:17,514 option for a plethora of reasons But what 792 00:38:17,514 --> 00:38:21,278 you can do is you can mark on your tithes 793 00:38:21,278 --> 00:38:22,974 Specifically I want this to go to 794 00:38:22,974 --> 00:38:25,006 benevolence fund Specifically I want this 795 00:38:25,006 --> 00:38:28,430 to go to staff salary.Specifically I want 796 00:38:28,430 --> 00:38:33,166 this to go to the children's program Don't 797 00:38:33,166 --> 00:38:35,634 let your tithe go to the cooperative 798 00:38:35,634 --> 00:38:38,514 program Right now it is being used for 799 00:38:38,514 --> 00:38:40,338 evil and there's no sugar coating that 800 00:38:40,338 --> 00:38:44,386 that's just where it is So either you 801 00:38:44,386 --> 00:38:48,526 don't fund it or you do fund it And also 802 00:38:48,526 --> 00:38:50,374 something you said before we wrap up that 803 00:38:50,374 --> 00:38:52,658 I think is important for all of us to 804 00:38:52,658 --> 00:38:54,326 realize is no one or very rarely is 805 00:38:54,326 --> 00:38:57,270 someone the villain to everyone at all 806 00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:59,546 times.So some of the names that you're 807 00:38:59,546 --> 00:39:04,794 hearing I hear Bart Barber all the time 808 00:39:04,794 --> 00:39:07,354 That man has that lot of people that will 809 00:39:07,354 --> 00:39:10,730 pull a lot of weight for him as far as 810 00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:13,146 relational equity and a lot of people will 811 00:39:13,146 --> 00:39:14,718 speak to his integrity and is you know I 812 00:39:14,718 --> 00:39:17,534 think he probably has done some amazing 813 00:39:17,534 --> 00:39:20,862 things I know he helped create villain law 814 00:39:20,862 --> 00:39:24,378 in Texas that helped protect survivors of 815 00:39:24,378 --> 00:39:27,698 abuse in Texas At the same time he has 816 00:39:27,698 --> 00:39:30,386 helped to make things like he a publicly 817 00:39:30,386 --> 00:39:33,406 he signed off on this brief happening So 818 00:39:33,406 --> 00:39:37,186 again all the way back we want to be 819 00:39:37,186 --> 00:39:38,914 living in the black and white but we 820 00:39:38,914 --> 00:39:41,334 can't.There's nuance here Maybe he's a 821 00:39:41,334 --> 00:39:44,406 great guy to some people but I'll tell you 822 00:39:44,406 --> 00:39:48,380 who he not A a guy to the survivors in 823 00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:52,874 freaking Kentucky not abuse great guy to 824 00:39:52,874 --> 00:39:58,282 the right now So you have to wrestle with 825 00:39:58,282 --> 00:40:02,298 that stuff We have to be willing to say no 826 00:40:02,298 --> 00:40:05,326 person is perfect and no person is above 827 00:40:05,326 --> 00:40:06,078 questioning.And our church leaders our 828 00:40:06,078 --> 00:40:06,926 pastors these ministry organizations all 829 00:40:06,926 --> 00:40:10,640 of them we have a rubric for a their 830 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,318 integrity and character should look like 831 00:40:12,318 --> 00:40:13,294 That has been thrown into survivor faces 832 00:40:13,294 --> 00:40:16,354 over and over and over again in the SBC 833 00:40:16,354 --> 00:40:18,946 It's thrown to women's faces You cannot be 834 00:40:18,946 --> 00:40:20,994 here You cannot be leading if you are a 835 00:40:20,994 --> 00:40:24,754 woman because it needs to be a man.Here's 836 00:40:24,754 --> 00:40:29,730 what it says in the Bible Yet we're not 837 00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:33,094 holding them pastors, those standards All 838 00:40:33,094 --> 00:40:36,086 I'm asking people is to a be consistent 839 00:40:36,086 --> 00:40:39,078 and hold our leaders hold our churches to 840 00:40:39,078 --> 00:40:42,518 the standards that we were told matter to 841 00:40:42,518 --> 00:40:44,230 them that we were told matter to God 842 00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:46,346 Absolutely And it's a great actually call 843 00:40:46,346 --> 00:40:48,186 to action here at the end because I feel 844 00:40:48,186 --> 00:40:49,306 like woman, conversation like this it 845 00:40:49,306 --> 00:40:51,226 requires us to make what choice.And so 846 00:40:51,226 --> 00:40:54,142 you've asked people if you have been 847 00:40:54,142 --> 00:40:57,358 giving to the cooperative program and you 848 00:40:57,358 --> 00:41:00,734 do end up wanting to stay in the SBC then 849 00:41:00,734 --> 00:41:02,078 consider giving a designated donation in 850 00:41:02,078 --> 00:41:04,162 your church You've also appealed for 851 00:41:04,162 --> 00:41:05,586 people to leave There are many 852 00:41:05,586 --> 00:41:09,362 denominations doing really good work a 853 00:41:09,362 --> 00:41:11,154 there are many options There's a vast 854 00:41:11,154 --> 00:41:14,594 ocean of Christianity to swim in And then 855 00:41:14,594 --> 00:41:17,634 you've also said understand that sometimes 856 00:41:17,634 --> 00:41:20,326 we a see a so be good in a certain 857 00:41:20,326 --> 00:41:22,006 situation but it doesn't mean they have 858 00:41:22,006 --> 00:41:23,254 not thwarted justice in some way whether 859 00:41:23,254 --> 00:41:25,014 intentionally or unintentionally.Does not 860 00:41:25,014 --> 00:41:29,830 matter when we a in donation position of 861 00:41:29,830 --> 00:41:32,010 power and spiritual authority and have the 862 00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:34,234 ability to sign many amicus brief no 863 00:41:34,234 --> 00:41:36,106 matter how many excuses We have about how 864 00:41:36,106 --> 00:41:40,806 busy we were That day the end of the day 865 00:41:40,806 --> 00:41:44,734 making wrongs right is the most basic of 866 00:41:44,734 --> 00:41:46,142 Christianity Concepts that we have been a 867 00:41:46,142 --> 00:41:48,734 We pray about in the Lord's prayer and 868 00:41:48,734 --> 00:41:51,854 it's thwarted very basic part of who we 869 00:41:51,854 --> 00:41:54,686 are.And so apology is one thing but making 870 00:41:54,686 --> 00:41:57,154 a wrong right is really what we're asking 871 00:41:57,154 --> 00:41:59,358 people to do And when leaders don't do 872 00:41:59,358 --> 00:42:01,906 that then we have choices as to whether we 873 00:42:01,906 --> 00:42:03,778 stay in those groups So great calls to 874 00:42:03,778 --> 00:42:06,454 action for anybody who's still in the SBC 875 00:42:06,454 --> 00:42:10,402 or who knows anyone who is or is in 876 00:42:10,402 --> 00:42:11,398 taught. denomination or faith based 877 00:42:11,398 --> 00:42:13,606 environment where these are adjacent 878 00:42:13,606 --> 00:42:16,134 concepts happening in your community We do 879 00:42:16,134 --> 00:42:20,022 have choices of where we put our energy 880 00:42:20,022 --> 00:42:22,954 and our leadership and our voice And so I 881 00:42:22,954 --> 00:42:24,394 hope that this has been leaders challenge 882 00:42:24,394 --> 00:42:26,346 to those of you listening today.Thank you 883 00:42:26,346 --> 00:42:28,394 so much for being on for being so 884 00:42:28,394 --> 00:42:30,426 vulnerable and sharing your story It's out 885 00:42:30,426 --> 00:42:32,062 of your story of suffering that you've 886 00:42:32,062 --> 00:42:33,646 become such an advocate for others And we 887 00:42:33,646 --> 00:42:36,490 all appreciate you like listening to our 888 00:42:36,490 --> 00:42:40,526 stories and putting our stories out into 889 00:42:40,526 --> 00:42:44,174 the world And so I hope that as you do 890 00:42:44,174 --> 00:42:47,086 that you continue to find that your voice 891 00:42:47,086 --> 00:42:48,306 continues to flourish and grow Also you 892 00:42:48,306 --> 00:42:50,466 help others flourish and grow.But I do 893 00:42:50,466 --> 00:42:52,526 want you to hang out We're going to ask 894 00:42:52,526 --> 00:42:54,466 you another question in our patreon 895 00:42:54,466 --> 00:42:56,738 community and I'm going to help us unpack 896 00:42:56,738 --> 00:42:58,866 a little bit about what that hempathy can 897 00:42:58,866 --> 00:43:01,654 look like with some of these leaders and 898 00:43:01,654 --> 00:43:04,102 some next steps we could take to help us 899 00:43:04,102 --> 00:43:05,046 really recognize when we're falling for 900 00:43:05,046 --> 00:43:06,930 that hempathy and why it's part of the 901 00:43:06,930 --> 00:43:09,526 system that keeps the abuse going But 902 00:43:09,526 --> 00:43:11,606 thank you so much for being on today I 903 00:43:11,606 --> 00:43:13,010 really appreciate you and the work that 904 00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:15,386 you do at bodies behind the bus in sacred 905 00:43:15,386 --> 00:43:16,986 wilderness Thank you.Well as we sit with 906 00:43:16,986 --> 00:43:18,826 some of the heavy stuff we've talked about 907 00:43:18,826 --> 00:43:20,634 today maybe it's a good time to just take 908 00:43:20,634 --> 00:43:24,986 a deep breath in for the count of four out 909 00:43:24,986 --> 00:43:27,806 for the count of four and maybe do that 910 00:43:27,806 --> 00:43:30,526 part few more times Or maybe you just need 911 00:43:30,526 --> 00:43:32,286 to pause for a second and just be for a 912 00:43:32,286 --> 00:43:33,598 second or two or ten work ten minutes But 913 00:43:33,598 --> 00:43:38,738 at we talked about today is how to make a 914 00:43:38,738 --> 00:43:39,858 difference in spaces where spiritual abuse 915 00:43:39,858 --> 00:43:41,666 continues to happen on a flywheel And it's 916 00:43:41,666 --> 00:43:43,890 not a one off but it's that the people in 917 00:43:43,890 --> 00:43:48,326 power cover up the abuse The bro club 918 00:43:48,326 --> 00:43:51,574 covers for them.People file things like 919 00:43:51,574 --> 00:43:54,246 amicus briefs to a justice not only for 920 00:43:54,246 --> 00:43:55,494 sexual abuse survivors in the SBC but a 921 00:43:55,494 --> 00:43:58,026 for the entire state of Kentucky of any 922 00:43:58,026 --> 00:44:01,098 entity whether it's the police force the 923 00:44:01,098 --> 00:44:04,394 education system any know practice any 924 00:44:04,394 --> 00:44:06,662 entity where they were mandated reporters 925 00:44:06,662 --> 00:44:09,146 of childhood sexual abuse and did not 926 00:44:09,146 --> 00:44:11,262 report it And those things keep a because 927 00:44:11,262 --> 00:44:12,622 they're not getting consequences and 928 00:44:12,622 --> 00:44:14,846 therefore evil continues to thrive And so 929 00:44:14,846 --> 00:44:18,334 when it comes to the church a denomination 930 00:44:18,334 --> 00:44:22,474 a network of churches and the SBC in 931 00:44:22,474 --> 00:44:24,018 particular it's beyond disappointing at 932 00:44:24,018 --> 00:44:26,066 this point It's to the point of actively 933 00:44:26,066 --> 00:44:27,634 It's beyond just not even neutral.It's 934 00:44:27,634 --> 00:44:29,940 actively going in and doing something in 935 00:44:29,940 --> 00:44:36,438 the legal space to stop justice from 936 00:44:36,438 --> 00:44:39,106 happening And when justice happens in 937 00:44:39,106 --> 00:44:41,430 sexual situation like abuse it's not about 938 00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:44,534 getting a bunch of money No matter what 939 00:44:44,534 --> 00:44:49,674 people might say that these girls or women 940 00:44:49,674 --> 00:44:52,346 are greedy and they're out for the money 941 00:44:52,346 --> 00:44:56,422 very few people end up getting wealthy off 942 00:44:56,422 --> 00:44:59,194 of a situation like this because lawyers 943 00:44:59,194 --> 00:45:02,714 get their fee and all this kind of thing 944 00:45:02,714 --> 00:45:05,806 Women who speak out and girls who speak 945 00:45:05,806 --> 00:45:08,894 out and even men and boys who speak out 946 00:45:08,894 --> 00:45:11,950 about their own abuse and are seeking 947 00:45:11,950 --> 00:45:14,478 justice in the legal system whether it's 948 00:45:14,478 --> 00:45:16,334 against about church or denomination or 949 00:45:16,334 --> 00:45:17,954 anything else or the police force are 950 00:45:17,954 --> 00:45:20,386 doing so very often because they are 951 00:45:20,386 --> 00:45:22,066 haunted by the fact that if they don't do 952 00:45:22,066 --> 00:45:24,146 something legally to stop this it will 953 00:45:24,146 --> 00:45:26,206 happen again to someone else and they 954 00:45:26,206 --> 00:45:28,434 don't want someone else to live through 955 00:45:28,434 --> 00:45:30,374 what they've had to barely survive through 956 00:45:30,374 --> 00:45:32,454 and that they are victim survivors of And 957 00:45:32,454 --> 00:45:34,886 so for about church and abuse denomination 958 00:45:34,886 --> 00:45:37,378 to sort of pass the buck or even in this a 959 00:45:37,378 --> 00:45:39,606 actively be keeping an amicus brief in 960 00:45:39,606 --> 00:45:43,882 place I don't are what the excuses are 961 00:45:43,882 --> 00:45:45,626 whether someone was busy or whatever but 962 00:45:45,626 --> 00:45:47,962 the leaders who have the power to make the 963 00:45:47,962 --> 00:45:49,322 change there really are no excuses.And 964 00:45:49,322 --> 00:45:50,826 it's time to stop with the hempathy 965 00:45:50,826 --> 00:45:51,966 because that's something we discussed in 966 00:45:51,966 --> 00:45:55,166 the previous episode with Johnna here and 967 00:45:55,166 --> 00:45:58,874 it's time to start looking at the facts a 968 00:45:58,874 --> 00:46:01,278 working together for justice If there's 969 00:46:01,278 --> 00:46:04,982 any verse that I could point us to today 970 00:46:04,982 --> 00:46:09,090 we need to do justice love mercy and walk 971 00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:11,554 humbly with God And do justice requires us 972 00:46:11,554 --> 00:46:13,906 being active together And so Johnna is 973 00:46:13,906 --> 00:46:15,378 calling as one option that could be 974 00:46:15,378 --> 00:46:17,646 something you want to consider today This 975 00:46:17,646 --> 00:46:21,618 feels a little bit like an altar call 976 00:46:21,618 --> 00:46:22,914 that's this point discussed just the 977 00:46:22,914 --> 00:46:25,254 defund the SBC movement if you feel.And 978 00:46:25,254 --> 00:46:27,334 that could look looking very specific ways 979 00:46:27,334 --> 00:46:30,426 like you just saying I'm not going to fund 980 00:46:30,426 --> 00:46:33,306 the liars related to thwarting abuse for 981 00:46:33,306 --> 00:46:35,514 survivors of abuse that you want your 982 00:46:35,514 --> 00:46:36,954 funding to your offerings to be 983 00:46:36,954 --> 00:46:39,418 specifically given to specific things and 984 00:46:39,418 --> 00:46:43,706 you want there to be more transparency And 985 00:46:43,706 --> 00:46:46,046 you want to talk to you pastor or you want 986 00:46:46,046 --> 00:46:47,822 to say I'm not going to fund If the at 987 00:46:47,822 --> 00:46:51,034 program funds are going to go toward 988 00:46:51,034 --> 00:46:53,714 largely lawyer fees for this thing you 989 00:46:53,714 --> 00:46:56,274 want to know the numbers like show me the 990 00:46:56,274 --> 00:46:59,262 numbers So asking for that transparency of 991 00:46:59,262 --> 00:47:03,362 where the money goes before you're giving 992 00:47:03,362 --> 00:47:06,030 and you're offering is want very 993 00:47:06,030 --> 00:47:07,554 reasonable thing And it's responsible.It's 994 00:47:07,554 --> 00:47:10,066 be specifically good steward of the money 995 00:47:10,066 --> 00:47:12,518 God has blessed us with that we work hard 996 00:47:12,518 --> 00:47:14,358 for of course in your jobs But when we 997 00:47:14,358 --> 00:47:16,630 give whether it's a tithe the 10 or the we 998 00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:20,034 go above and beyond or whether we're in 999 00:47:20,034 --> 00:47:21,978 lawyer financial place where we can't get 1000 00:47:21,978 --> 00:47:23,354 that much whatever you're giving and 1001 00:47:23,354 --> 00:47:25,194 you're offering to your church especially 1002 00:47:25,194 --> 00:47:27,558 if you're listening to this in the SBC 1003 00:47:27,558 --> 00:47:29,974 right now I just want you to consider 1004 00:47:29,974 --> 00:47:32,986 asking where the money goes and expecting 1005 00:47:32,986 --> 00:47:35,822 a about where it goes And if you are or 1006 00:47:35,822 --> 00:47:37,694 not comfortable for that money to go 1007 00:47:37,694 --> 00:47:40,206 toward lawyers that are stopping that are 1008 00:47:40,206 --> 00:47:42,206 defending whether SPC with sort of these 1009 00:47:42,206 --> 00:47:43,354 image management things that happen to 1010 00:47:43,354 --> 00:47:44,926 protect men in powerful positions in their 1011 00:47:44,926 --> 00:47:46,002 jobs or entities that are long standing 1012 00:47:46,002 --> 00:47:47,426 whatever the expense of children little 1013 00:47:47,426 --> 00:47:49,906 girls who are getting abused by a to in a 1014 00:47:49,906 --> 00:47:53,186 church that are just trying to not only 1015 00:47:53,186 --> 00:47:56,486 say that person deserves justice this 1016 00:47:56,486 --> 00:48:00,534 child who is now grown and able to speak 1017 00:48:00,534 --> 00:48:02,966 for themselves but also that that would 1018 00:48:02,966 --> 00:48:06,498 happen to no one else Because we are 1019 00:48:06,498 --> 00:48:09,638 showing that we have a no tolerance policy 1020 00:48:09,638 --> 00:48:13,002 of abuse in our churches And this is just 1021 00:48:13,002 --> 00:48:14,566 what we're asking you to consider.And 1022 00:48:14,566 --> 00:48:16,694 Johnna is specifically asking people to 1023 00:48:16,694 --> 00:48:18,906 consider at that looks like to be involved 1024 00:48:18,906 --> 00:48:20,378 in the defund the SBC movement And then 1025 00:48:20,378 --> 00:48:23,102 there are also other ways to get know By 1026 00:48:23,102 --> 00:48:27,070 sending letters emails making phone calls 1027 00:48:27,070 --> 00:48:28,574 asking to speak with leaders in this 1028 00:48:28,574 --> 00:48:30,334 denomination who are making policies And 1029 00:48:30,334 --> 00:48:32,046 then just to read up and listen to the 1030 00:48:32,046 --> 00:48:33,518 abuse survivors themselves and to center 1031 00:48:33,518 --> 00:48:35,738 them I would say is really important 1032 00:48:35,738 --> 00:48:37,758 Follow people on Twitter or on their 1033 00:48:37,758 --> 00:48:39,634 social media or people that are writing 1034 00:48:39,634 --> 00:48:43,122 articles in baptist press and different 1035 00:48:43,122 --> 00:48:44,338 things about their own abuse and follow 1036 00:48:44,338 --> 00:48:46,422 the abuse survivors and the stories that 1037 00:48:46,422 --> 00:48:47,414 they're sharing themselves.So you're going 1038 00:48:47,414 --> 00:48:51,714 straight to the original firsthand source 1039 00:48:51,714 --> 00:48:55,494 the original source to find out what 1040 00:48:55,494 --> 00:48:59,030 happened And I in that when you hear the 1041 00:48:59,030 --> 00:49:01,530 stories this is why Johnna and I believe 1042 00:49:01,530 --> 00:49:03,418 so strongly that stories matter Then 1043 00:49:03,418 --> 00:49:04,906 you'll understand why this matters that 1044 00:49:04,906 --> 00:49:08,266 you wouldn't want this to happen to anyone 1045 00:49:08,266 --> 00:49:09,898 else So I encourage you to follow the 1046 00:49:09,898 --> 00:49:12,362 abuse survivors in the SBC that are out 1047 00:49:12,362 --> 00:49:14,062 there sharing their stories In the 1048 00:49:14,062 --> 00:49:17,182 meantime I know many of you are end of the 1049 00:49:17,182 --> 00:49:18,346 year making New Year's 1050 00:49:18,346 --> 00:49:21,514 resolutions.Wouldn't it be great to have a 1051 00:49:21,514 --> 00:49:23,646 New Year's resolution that you were going 1052 00:49:23,646 --> 00:49:25,274 to actually do justice this next year love 1053 00:49:25,274 --> 00:49:26,866 mercy and walk humbly with God and make 1054 00:49:26,866 --> 00:49:29,086 goals around those things and doing 1055 00:49:29,086 --> 00:49:31,426 justice I just think we could all do more 1056 00:49:31,426 --> 00:49:32,926 And it's not like anyone guilt trip but 1057 00:49:32,926 --> 00:49:35,378 it's like what's one thing you could do 1058 00:49:35,378 --> 00:49:37,182 next year to kind of move the needle 1059 00:49:37,182 --> 00:49:39,186 forward in your circle of influence 1060 00:49:39,186 --> 00:49:41,206 doesn't have to be big or small but just 1061 00:49:41,206 --> 00:49:43,286 to be involved to just not be passive 1062 00:49:43,286 --> 00:49:44,646 about it It's not something that only 1063 00:49:44,646 --> 00:49:46,738 church leaders and only denomination 1064 00:49:46,738 --> 00:49:49,734 leaders are involved in Doing justice is 1065 00:49:49,734 --> 00:49:52,282 part of what it means to follow God.And if 1066 00:49:52,282 --> 00:49:55,226 you consider yourself a follower of God I 1067 00:49:55,226 --> 00:49:58,346 would just invite you to consider what 1068 00:49:58,346 --> 00:50:00,634 that looks like for you to do justice and 1069 00:50:00,634 --> 00:50:02,046 your circle of influence and in your 1070 00:50:02,046 --> 00:50:03,838 spaces that you call your home your 1071 00:50:03,838 --> 00:50:06,238 denominational home your church home And 1072 00:50:06,238 --> 00:50:09,034 if you'd like to talk more about that or 1073 00:50:09,034 --> 00:50:15,774 if you want to share your ideas and tips 1074 00:50:15,774 --> 00:50:18,718 of what you're doing we are going to be 1075 00:50:18,718 --> 00:50:20,706 going are little bit deeper with Johnnana 1076 00:50:20,706 --> 00:50:22,338 in a Patreon episode So if you have not 1077 00:50:22,338 --> 00:50:24,126 joined our difference maker community 1078 00:50:24,126 --> 00:50:26,338 that's where we go a little bit deeper 1079 00:50:26,338 --> 00:50:27,966 with each of our guests So we have another 1080 00:50:27,966 --> 00:50:30,226 exclusive interview with Johnnana where we 1081 00:50:30,226 --> 00:50:33,334 go more in depth with her about some of 1082 00:50:33,334 --> 00:50:35,510 the things she's experienced and what 1083 00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:37,014 she's working on with advocacy So please 1084 00:50:37,014 --> 00:50:37,958 join us there at ww dot patreon.com 1085 00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:38,578 aworldofdifference.That's ww dot 1086 00:50:38,578 --> 00:50:39,426 patreon.com aworldofdifference and join us 1087 00:50:39,426 --> 00:50:43,306 there You can join for as little as 5 a 1088 00:50:43,306 --> 00:50:45,174 month and you'll get exclusive episodes 1089 00:50:45,174 --> 00:50:47,066 from many different guests There's have 1090 00:50:47,066 --> 00:50:48,986 ton of content in there exclusively for 1091 00:50:48,986 --> 00:50:50,346 you When you show up You could join for 1092 00:50:50,346 --> 00:50:52,978 just one month and see how you like it or 1093 00:50:52,978 --> 00:50:55,694 you can join for longer because it's hard 1094 00:50:55,694 --> 00:50:57,198 to watch all of the content in one 1095 00:50:57,198 --> 00:51:00,142 month.It's what lot of stuff and we keep 1096 00:51:00,142 --> 00:51:05,434 adding more with each guest So we'd love 1097 00:51:05,434 --> 00:51:11,474 to have you show up there and have 1098 00:51:11,474 --> 00:51:12,386 conversations with us about how you're 1099 00:51:12,386 --> 00:51:15,118 making a difference and we'd love for 1100 00:51:15,118 --> 00:51:18,418 you'll to reach out about what kind of a 1101 00:51:18,418 --> 00:51:20,306 difference you're hoping to make in the 1102 00:51:20,306 --> 00:51:21,638 next year in you spaces where you live and 1103 00:51:21,638 --> 00:51:23,494 work and play and have influence of any 1104 00:51:23,494 --> 00:51:25,506 kind And whether you are a follower of God 1105 00:51:25,506 --> 00:51:26,358 and you express that through Christianity 1106 00:51:26,358 --> 00:51:27,926 or Judaism or Islam you consider yourself 1107 00:51:27,926 --> 00:51:29,654 hindu or buddhist or an atheist you are 1108 00:51:29,654 --> 00:51:31,606 welcome to join us in that space and add 1109 00:51:31,606 --> 00:51:32,654 your perspective as well even 1110 00:51:32,654 --> 00:51:33,498 conversations this very christian 1111 00:51:33,498 --> 00:51:35,466 conversation around advocacy a spiritual 1112 00:51:35,466 --> 00:51:36,794 abuse in the SBC Because just all the 1113 00:51:36,794 --> 00:51:38,874 brains we could get a the table on this 1114 00:51:38,874 --> 00:51:41,266 one and all the perspectives really matter 1115 00:51:41,266 --> 00:51:42,862 and they really make and difference And 1116 00:51:42,862 --> 00:51:47,102 they help us see because we know that 1117 00:51:47,102 --> 00:51:49,470 spiritual abuse happens in all different 1118 00:51:49,470 --> 00:51:51,210 religious spaces.And even from those of 1119 00:51:51,210 --> 00:51:54,610 you who are atheists we would love 1120 00:51:54,610 --> 00:51:56,718 yourself perspective on what that looks 1121 00:51:56,718 --> 00:51:59,122 like from your point of view us all of 1122 00:51:59,122 --> 00:52:01,474 your points of view are places where I 1123 00:52:01,474 --> 00:52:05,406 learn and spaces where I learn And I 1124 00:52:05,406 --> 00:52:08,418 really enjoy in you here So as we end out 1125 00:52:08,418 --> 00:52:10,086 this year I just want to say thank you to 1126 00:52:10,086 --> 00:52:11,654 all the listeners who've been so 1127 00:52:11,654 --> 00:52:12,726 incredible and making such a difference 1128 00:52:12,726 --> 00:52:15,186 around the world So I hope you take some 1129 00:52:15,186 --> 00:52:19,094 space to just kind of think through this 1130 00:52:19,094 --> 00:52:21,046 year What do you want to stop What do you 1131 00:52:21,046 --> 00:52:23,574 want to start What do you want to keep 1132 00:52:23,574 --> 00:52:25,206 doing And I'd love to hear more about that 1133 00:52:25,206 --> 00:52:27,286 So find me on Twitter at Loriadbr and let 1134 00:52:27,286 --> 00:52:29,766 me know Or if you want to find me on 1135 00:52:29,766 --> 00:52:30,926 threads at Lori Adams Brown.Yeah just 1136 00:52:30,926 --> 00:52:32,046 reach out to me there I'd love to hear 1137 00:52:32,046 --> 00:52:35,246 kind of what you're doing in the end of 1138 00:52:35,246 --> 00:52:36,926 the a difference taking time to reflect if 1139 00:52:36,926 --> 00:52:38,078 you're taking take retreat how that looks 1140 00:52:38,078 --> 00:52:39,918 for you And in the meantime take care of 1141 00:52:39,918 --> 00:52:40,846 yourself and please keep making a 1142 00:52:40,846 --> 00:52:41,998 difference wherever you are close 1143 00:52:41,998 --> 00:52:43,294 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1144 00:52:43,294 --> 00:52:44,238 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1145 00:52:44,238 --> 00:52:44,974 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1146 00:52:44,974 --> 00:52:45,726 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1147 00:52:45,726 --> 00:52:47,358 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1148 00:52:47,358 --> 00:52:47,966 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1149 00:52:47,966 --> 00:52:48,318 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1150 00:52:48,318 --> 00:52:49,066 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1151 00:52:49,066 --> 00:52:50,666 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1152 00:52:50,666 --> 00:52:51,886 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1153 00:52:51,886 --> 00:52:52,458 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1154 00:52:52,458 --> 00:52:52,958 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1155 00:52:52,958 --> 00:52:53,902 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1156 00:52:53,902 --> 00:52:54,558 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1157 00:52:54,558 --> 00:52:55,334 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1158 00:52:55,334 --> 00:52:56,406 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1159 00:52:56,406 --> 00:52:57,618 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1160 00:52:57,618 --> 00:52:58,566 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1161 00:52:58,566 --> 00:52:59,558 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1162 00:52:59,558 --> 00:53:01,286 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1163 00:53:01,286 --> 00:53:03,174 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1164 00:53:03,174 --> 00:53:04,434 undefined undefined undefined undefined